Why is this controversial? Christianity, like Islam, is a missionary faith. Muslims, as Mohammed Rasheed/Nicky Reilly newly reminds us, are energetically proselytizing among Christians. But no, say the dhimmi bishops, it is not a two-way street.
If no coercion is involved, why should anyone object to proselytizing appeals? Close the front door if you don't want to talk to the Mormons. But they haven't hurt you by knocking. Islam is the only faith that carries an earthly penalty for those who reject the invitation to convert -- and that is what ought to be a matter of concern for these bishops, but of course it isn't.
"Church of England row over Muslim conversion," by George Pitcher in the Telegraph, May 26 (thanks to Christopher):
A row has erupted within the Church of England over calls for British Muslims to be converted to Christianity.The Bishop of Rochester, the Rt Rev Michael Nazir-Ali, accused the Church of failing in its duty to "welcome people of other faiths" ahead of a motion at July's General Synod in York urging a strategy for evangelising Muslims.
However, his comments were condemned by senior figures within the Church. The Rt Rev Stephen Lowe, the former Bishop of Hulme and the newly appointed Bishop of Urban Life and Faith, said: "Both the Bishop of Rochester's reported comments and the synod private members' motion show no sensitivity to the need for good inter-faith relations. Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus and Sikhs are learning to respect one another's paths to God and to live in harmony. This demand for the evangelisation of people of other faiths contributes nothing to our communities."
A Church of England spokesman added: "We have a mission-focused Christian presence in every community, including those where there are a large number of Muslims. That engagement is based on the provisions of Article 9 of the European Convention on Human Rights, which provides for freedom of thought, conscience and religion."
The spokesman played down the likelihood of the synod agenda being hijacked by those whose priority was a perceived threat from Islam: "The agenda has not yet been confirmed."
Pakistan-born Dr Nazir-Ali told the Mail on Sunday that, while Church leaders had rightly shown sensitivity to British Muslims, "I think it may have gone too far."
He added: "Our nation is rooted in the Christian faith and that is the basis of welcoming people of other faiths. You cannot have an honest conversation on the basis of fudge."...
The dhimmi bishops FORGET that the Christian is commanded to witness to all the nations, called the "Great Commision of Jesus".
Islam is like the Charles Manson of religions. They can prosleytise to other religions, but other religions can't proselytise to them.
This 'respect one another's paths to God' denies the words of Jesus 'I AM the way'. Further more, it disregards His other saying, 'Go into all the world and preach the gospel'.
Can these people be considered Christian any more? I think not! They are denying the very fundementals of the faith! Dr Nazir-Ali is the only one who deserves to head that Church as Archbishop of Canterbury.
While we are busy respecting each others' "paths to God," we would do well to remember that for the Christian, that path can be none other than the Via Dolorosa which winds up the hill to Cavalry.
And if we continue on respecting each others' paths until Muslims attain a majority or even a sizable minority among us, you can be sure they will be eager to help us along our path.
There's a an Islamic take on interfaith relations for you: "Helping infidels meet God."
Oops. "Calvary."
Call out the cavalry.
Oy.
Words which come to mind when pondering the Church of England:
Exhausted. Bankrupt.
Cowardly.
Confused.
Senile.
Self loathing.
I am convinced that this hideous church actually serves to lure the bloodthirsty Mohammadan to the shores of England to wage Jihad. Muslims infer that a society which exhibits such a pathetic lack of confidence in itself such as that displayed by this godawful Church of England, such a society is ripe for conquest. And given the feckless PC response from many British (but not all...), the sinister Muslims may be correct.
what a sick, pathetic joke these people are! is this unnamed "Church of england spokesman" suggesting that preaching the holy gospel is not in accordance with "article 9 of the european convention on human rights?
and the half-wit Lowe, former bishop of Hulme, actually thinks that muslims are learning to "respect one anothers paths to God and live in harmony"?
utterly pathetic and indescribably stupid. does this clown not have "compass direct" as one of his bookmarks?----/////he ought to have, given the number of anglican churches destroyed by muslim in nigeria.....
so "evangelisation contributes nothing to our communities"? -----scuse me, bish, but......i thought your community was supposed to be the kingdom of God....
what a sick, pathetic joke these people are! is this unnamed "Church of england spokesman" suggesting that preaching the holy gospel is not in accordance with "article 9 of the european convention on human rights?
and the half-wit Lowe, former bishop of Hulme, actually thinks that muslims are learning to "respect one anothers paths to God and live in harmony"?
utterly pathetic and indescribably stupid. does this clown not have "compass direct" as one of his bookmarks?----/////he ought to have, given the number of anglican churches destroyed by muslim in nigeria.....
so "evangelisation contributes nothing to our communities"? -----scuse me, bish, but......i thought your community was supposed to be the kingdom of God....
Saving Muslims from the gnostic heresy of Mohammadism should be paramount to all Christians sects, starting from Pope Benedict, on down.
It's their duty.
To help those trapped in the death-threatening cult of Mohammad must be considered a loving act.
Thankfully Pope Benedict showed that a Muslim can come to faith in Jesus. This past Easter he baptized a former Muslim. It is a good start.
Isn't refusing to proselytize Muslims merely their duty under Sharia? They're just preparing for when Britain is formally ruled by Sharia.
There's an Islamic take on interfaith relations for you: "Helping infidels meet God."
Posted by: Haid Dasalami at May 26, 2008 11:56 AM
Points eruditely made, Haid.
GREAT screename, btw :)
"This demand for the evangelisation of people of other faiths contributes nothing to our communities."
Oh no, he did NOT just say that!
If Christianity is not about evangelizing, then what IS it about? Just those of us who are Christians and no one else? Let the non-Christians come to Christ all by their lonesome? Let them try to figure salvation out by themselves? Assume they MIGHT get interested and walk down the street asking random Christians for some guidance in the faith?
How exactly does this work?
Fools. What do we expect from a church that can't even clean up its own house? No wonder they don't want visitors. If my Church were a pure convoluted mess like the CoE, I wouldn't want to evangelize anyone either. We Catholics have our problems, Lord knows, but at least our teachings are clear.
No confusion here. A few years back I found Gospel for Asia. They have a Muslim Ministry http://www.gfa.org/muslim_ministry that specifically ministers to Muslims and you can appoint your donation to go to that. They also have a radio ministry like Voice of America, only it's more "Voice of Christ" that reaches people in Muslim controlled regions.
There should be no problem since both of these cults made use of beheadings when they were founded. Even Muhammad didn't decapitate any of his wives so, in this respect, the COE is more advanced. With this unifying principle in place cross proselytization should move forward.
The Rt Rev Stephen Lowe, the former Bishop of Hulme and the newly appointed Bishop of Urban Life and Faith:
"Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus and Sikhs are learning to respect one another's paths to God and to live in harmony."
Only a freaking idiot could lump Muslims in with the above kumbaya statement.
Lowe should get some serious consideration for the next round of Dhimmi of the Year voting.
Sad, pathetic, suicidal ... you wonder if he is living on the same planet as the rest of us.
These pathetic creatures will soon have no congregation. Anyone with brains and a spine will abandon them.
This demand...
...contributes nothing?
The Rt Reverend Lowe is not even a Christian, and therefore certainly should not be a Bishop.
The Church of England and its Episcopalian sister church in the USA have been apostate and administered by fools for too long. Doesn't the Queen have some power to remove these charlatans? She certainly has the duty as the Defender of the Faith.
Bishop Nazir-Ali is the voice in this wilderness. He should be urged to seek a position with a truly evangelical church. A man with his conviction and clarity of vision might be the spark needed to awake the English and create a revival in England. But it is unlikely to happen in the C of E.
Thank God for Bishop Nazir-Ali.
How did these men get in positions of authority in any church?
Their statements reveal a blatant misunderstanding or ignorance of the teachings of Christ.
Were a Buddhist or Hindu or atheist to say such things it would be perfectly understandable—no one expects them to know or believe or teach the teachings of Christ. But Christian bishops? Absolutely inexcusable.
Join Marcion, Arius, and Nestorius:
Anathema.
I had a fascinating on-line conversation with a cultured European Muslim a year or two ago, in which we were discussing Europe's demographic and spiritual decline. I'll never forget it, the word he used when suggesting that Muslims may indeed have inherited the historic role of re-invigorating European society. He told me that Europe was "tired"...and needed an infusion of new blood, which Muslims were geographically and demographically suited to supply.
His characterization of Europe as being "tired" has haunted me ever since. I honestly can't say that he's wrong.
But why is Europe "tired"? The latter half of the 20th century was the most successful, affluent, peaceful period in European history. Was it precisely this affluence that induced a self-indulgent populace to become uninterested in civilizational (and procreational) perpetuation?
Perhaps.
Whatever the cause, Europe's a goner.
That's it. I'm going to agitate for the expulsion of the Church of England from the Anglican Communnion if they continue to sprout this rubbish - and if their actions do not reflect what Nazir-Ali wants it to do.
Europe is "tired".
She tried cheering herself with wine, and embracing folly... She undertook great projects: She built houses for herself and planted vineyards. She made gardens and parks and planted all kinds of fruit trees in them. She made reservoirs to water groves of flourishing trees. She denied herself nothing her eyes desired; she refused her heart no pleasure. Yet when she surveyed all that her hands had done and what she had toiled to achieve, everything was meaningless, a chasing after the wind... nothing was gained under the sun. So she hated life, because the work that is done under the sun was grievous to her. She hated all the things she had toiled for under the sun, because she must leave them to the one who comes after her.*
It would appear so.
Do we cry out to God for help only when we have no alternative recourse? Are we quick to cry out to God in dissatisfaction when we've reached the end of our desires? These are not the prayers of those who love their Creator, or love those they create (i.e. that come after). These are the self-indulgent prayers of those who love only themselves; should such prayers be rewarded?
"Remember your Creator in the days of your youth, before the days of trouble come and the years approach when you will say, "I find no pleasure in them" ... Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man."
[*Ecclesiates, with extreme poetic license]
Europe, like Solomon, has gone chasing after many lovers and false gods. We cannot sit comfortably idle while the spiritual void revealed by satisfied affluence is filled by Islam, while the great cultures our fore-fathers built sink into a sea of false comity and "tolerance". That is what makes Lowe and his ilk so dangerous, especially at this time.
There is a difference between proselytizing Muslims and preaching the gospel to all the nations. One is to tailor a message to a particular group, a sort of religious marketting, the other is to (by inspiration) preach the singular message that all men have sinned and the penalty for that sin is death, but through the sacrifice of God, men have recieved eternal life, and that through faith and obediance to Christ one may enter into heaven.
Furthermore the preacher is commanded to preach, the decision to believe lies elsewhere. Some believe that God chooses who shall believe, others believe that man is free to choose.
I have found that many people come to faith with the help of another, usually a friend, coworker or family member, less often is it by a proffessional evangelist. But that is my own anecdotal experience and I am not sure wether my experiences accurately mirror the majority of cases.
But I also have found many people who came to believe not through those usual means, but that they found Christ by reading the Bible.
I am certain that no man that God has destined to know the truth will be denied the oppurtunity. Wether they are Buddhist, Mahometan, or any other religious tradition. If God opens a door, no man can shut it, if God closes a door no man can open it.
In fact many testimonies I have heard often consist of the person fighting against believing up till the moment when they no longer can deny what they actually believe.
"The Rt Reverend Lowe is not even a Christian, and therefore certainly should not be a Bishop."
Well, he's a not a Bishop even if he is a Christian, but that's another conversation...
"She certainly has the duty as the Defender of the Faith."
She's not, actually.
The title "Defender of the Faith" was a title given by the POPE to ROMAN CATHOLIC monarchs. When Henry abandoned the Church and made himself head of this thing called Church of England, he retained the title that was given to the throne when the King was Catholic. Henry--and all the British monarchs after him right up to Elizabeth--have retained a title that they simply have no entitlement to.
"But why is Europe "tired"?"
Europe lost its mojo and only God can help them get it back.
If you target a specific people group, and travel to their country, you are a missionary; if they are already in yours, you must be a despised proselytizer. Great is Artemis of the Ephesians, Great is Tolerance of the Appeasers!
Acts 1:4b-5,8 "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit." "But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."
Thank God for "proselytizers" (aka, religious marketers):
2 Corinthians 11:24b-28
I (Paul) have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again. Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my own countrymen, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false brothers. I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked. Besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches.
Gee, did he not play well with others? How Politically Incorrect of him.
Romans 10:14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?
Mmm, yes, unfortunately "proselytizing" is a loaded term carrying with it the idea of "buying", "compelling" or at least dishonestly enticing conversions. A better word might be Evangelism and variants thereof.
This article certainly well complements the quote from Churchill elsewhere. As one of the article's "hard-line evangelical" Anglicans I view the CoE's abdication of its obedience to God as merely tragically symptomatic of the death of the West. Even moreso, perhaps even its cause.
The Church, beit local or Denominational, that becomes only inward-looking is dying.
Oops. I hasten to add that I consider Muslims to genuinely proselytise. Obfuscation is imperative to win converts to this religion.
The lack of conviction and faith amongst Anglicans is one of the reasons I am returning to Rome this Fall. I need to wait for the next "Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults (RCIA)" classes.
With such lack of missional conviction from the Anglicans, can we really believe that Jesus promise to Peter in Matthew 16:18. "I tell you that you are Peter, and it is on this rock that I will build my congregation, and the powers of hell will not conquer it." Rome however stands peaceful and confident in the truth of the Gospel.
A powerful book for anyone, believer or not, potential convert or not, to read is "Truth and Tolerance" by Benedict II. http://www.amazon.com/Truth-Tolerance-Christian-Belief-Religions/dp/158617035X
It's short but solid reading.
For Anglicans and especially protestants considering converting. See "Home Sweet Rome" by Hahn and "Biblical Defense of Catholicism" by Armstrong.
Sticking with Protestantism, myself. Thanks for the offer.
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus
(But in case any Muslim is confused by the verse above, here is Athanasius's On the Incarnation, written by a great Catholic).
I agree with some of the other posters that we have to be careful with our language in this area for various reasons.
"Missionary" for some has to do with preaching the Gospel. For others, the same word has nothing to do with proclaiming Christ; it's just another word for being a silent leaven in the dough and inculturating to the point that you're invisible.
"Proselytism" is a loaded term nowadays. It almost never means simply announcing the Gospel and inviting people to join the Church. For most people it implies underhanded tactics and coercion. Very rarely is it precisely defined, but it usually has a pejorative connotation. The vague use of this word has a chilling effect on the freedom of religion.
Catholic bishops would not dare come out against evangelization, but I'm afraid there is a lot of passive resistance to the notion, especially in lands with large numbers of Moslems or other non-Christians.
Please, my fellow posters, don't write the old Church of England and the Anglican Communion off entirely.
Whatever variety of Christian you are, just concentrate on praying that either Bishop Michael Nazir-Ali, or Bishop Patrick Sookhdeo, gets the top job next time. Also get to work on educating your bishop, parish priest, or other church leaders, and fellow pew-sitters. Whenever a member of your church, layperson or clergy, shows signs of comprehending the nature of Political Islam, shower them with encouragement.
Bp Michael Nazir-Ali is the son of a Pakistani Muslim couple who apostasised and converted to (Anglican) Christianity. He is, therefore, a first-generation Christian from a formerly Muslim family. He entered the priesthood while residing in Pakistan, before migrating to the UK. Also while living in Pakistan, he headed up the Church Missionary Society for some years.
I have met him. He is, in manner, very gentle and conciliatory, but he can be trusted, in debate with Muslims, not to concede any part of the essentials of the historic Christian faith. As he put it in the article Mr Spencer has posted above: "You cannot have an honest conversation {with Muslims} on the basis of fudge."...
I would give him 6 out of 10 on awareness of Political Islam, judging from an address I heard him give in my hometown this year ; but that said, he saw clean through that 'letter from the Muslims to the Christians' in October '07, and his views as regards what Hugh calls 'MESA nostra', the attempt by Muslims to gain an absolute monopoly over, and censorship of, the study of things Islamic, in the Infidel academy, cannot be faulted from a 'jihadwatch' POV. We should also remember that it was he who publicly 'blew the whistle' on the subject of 'no go' areas for Infidels, in Islamised districts of Britain.
He would do a good job as Archbishop.
And he isn't the only possible candidate, either.
My other choice for the next Archbishop - and I speak as an evangelical Anglican who currently worships within what might be called a 'high anglican'/ 'anglo-catholic' parish - would be Bishop Patrick Sookhdeo, also in the UK.
He is himself an apostate from Islam; he converted to Christianity in the 1960s while studying at university in the UK.
He runs the 'Barnabas Fund' to support (and lobby on behalf of ) persecuted Christians, primarily those within the Islamosphere.
He has written a number of ruthlessly truthful books describing and challenging Political Islam; he pulls no punches, indeed, he is a very typical defector from the Camp of Islam, passionately concerned that all non-Muslims should be warned about the danger that threatens them.
He published a splendid deconstruction of the 'letter from the Muslims to the Christians' - a text which was posted at this very site; he, too, warns most strenuously against the Muslim infiltration of the Academy.
Nor are these two bishops the only Anglican 'talent' in the Counter-Jihad. Another is Rev Dr Mark Durie in Australia, an Anglican priest and scholar, who wrote a brief, lucid handbook entitled, 'Revelation? Do Muslims and Christians Worship the Same God?" Its chief thrust is to set out, simply and clearly, how it is that 'allah' differs - totally - from the God of the Bible, the God who is worshipped by both Jews and Christians. Bat Yeor - who is Jewish - gave it her imprimatur.
Dr Mark Durie's book is intended not only to clarify the key differences between Islam and the Biblical faiths - that aspect of it would be useful to any intelligent Infidel, even an atheist or a Buddhist or a HIndu, who wanted to demolish the standard Muslim attempt to claim kinship with Jews and Christians - but it is *also* intended to equip Christians to evangelise Muslims effectively.
On the ground, ordinary Christians, whether Anglican or of other traditions, are, I am sure, doing their best to 'show and tell' the faith to their Muslim classmates, neighbours and work colleagues.
There is a strong 'evangelical', confessing, mission-minded presence within the Anglican church. It doesn't get as much publicity as the likes of Bishop Lowe, but it exists - and it is very much alive. And it will politely ignore fools like Bishop Lowe, and go right on praying and evangelising.
Here is one paragraph from the prayer leaflet that the Australian branch of the (Anglican) Church Missionary Society sent to all their members, last year:
"Give us Christ-like love for Muslims who do not know your love
and have not heard your word.
Cause us, loving Father, to care enough to pray regularly for them, and to do what we can to see the gospel proclaimed among them, that they, with us, may know you, whom to know is eternal life. Through Christ our Lord, Amen."
The same leaflet also told members of CMS to pray for "Muslims living in your area" and who have "Christian friends or neighbours".
There are Anglicans like Bp Lowe. But there are many, many others like Bps Nazir-Ali and Sookhdeo, and like Dr Durie.
Over the past several decades, the church has lost its mojo and has embraced interfaithing and syncretism -- one reason that Islam is able to win converts in the West.
Where can I get a copy of this?
WSW
WSW -
Koorong Books, in Australia (a Christian chain of booksellers) sells Dr Mark Durie's book. They can be found on the internet and you can buy books online or over the phone.
I will not give up on the Anglican Communion. I will not sit idly by and let the (old and soon senescent) liberal bishops and whatnot maintain control. God's will and God's work cannot be denied - not for long, and not for good.
I was talking yesterday to some from St Ebbes - they believe that within the next 3 decades, while the CoE might become smaller, it will become rejuvenated and revived for the Lord's mission. I pray this is so.
BTW, ddarmy, is there any truth to the rumours that Koorong is operated by non-Christians? Not that it matters one bit, in that sense, but, you know, just curious.
I would hate for any hesitancy over distributers to inhibit someone from acquiring Durie's book. It's a great book because it is lucid, bare bones and small enough that you can actually get people to read it.
http://www.cityharvest.org.au/shop/index.php?main_page=pubs_product_book_info&products_id=100
Thanks, 'concerned citizen', for the extra info.
I will also mention that Durie's book only costs around $15 (Australian).
It's paperback, slim and neat, and slips very nicely into the back pocket or into a small handbag.
I think every high-school chaplain and parish priest, or pastor, should have it.
I gave a copy to my brother-in-law and sister-in-law as a Christmas present, since they are fairly active in their church, lead bible studies and so on. I thought they should be equipped.
My own copy is out on loan to another relative.
I have also placed a copy in my church's parish library.
Durie is useful for stripping off the 'abrahamic religions' camouflage; while providing some 'road tested' handy hints for opening conversation with Muslim inquirers.
I think, however, that Christians who are planning to evangelise the folks at the mosque down the road from their church, or the Muslims who live next door, should also study 'Islam 101' from this site, or the materials from Centre for the Study of Political Islam, and "Truth about Muhammad".
Christians have, in the past, proven able to engage, and convert, members of cults, gang members and even people from organised crime groups such as the Triads [look up Jackie Pullinger!] not to mention those intrepid Russian and Chinese Christians who managed to convert dyed-in-the-wool communist party members, or those who in Germany after the war tackled the Nazified German population, with some successes.
So: once Christians realize that Islam is rather like all of these other known 'tough nuts' (that is, street gangs, cults, organised crime families, and aggressive totalitarian political ideologies) they should be able to work out how to tackle it.
What would Dominic say?
Thanks to both Concerned Citizen and Dumbledore's Army for the info.
(Completely off-topic: Dumbledore's Army, have you seen this?)
WSW