Here is a case study in the hazards of limiting the discourse on Islamic jihad to what parties with highly dubious intentions ("friend and ally" illusions aside) are willing to talk about, which is a consequence of banishing certain terms from the "terrorism" lexicon. Doing would deprive us of tools with which to challenge vague language like this from the Saudi king, the Deobandis, and others. And whom does that make safer?
"Saudi king: End Islamic extremism," from YNet News:
Islam must do away with the dangers of extremism and present the religion's positive message, Saudi King Abdullah said Wednesday as he opened a conference of Muslim figures aimed at launching a dialogue with Christians and Jews.
The three-day gathering in the holy city of Mecca seeks a unified Muslim voice ahead of the interfaith dialogue. In particular, Saudi Arabia hopes to promote reconciliation between Shiite and Sunni Muslims.
"You have gathered today to tell the whole world that ... we are a voice of justice and values and humanity, that we are a voice of coexistence and a just and rational dialogue," Abdullah told the 500 Muslim delegates from 50 Muslim nations in his opening speech.
Abdullah walked into the conference hall Wednesday with powerful Iranian politician Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, who later sat on the king's left on the stage, sending a message that the Sunni kingdom does not have a problem with moderate Shiites like him.
Abdullah announced in March that he wanted to sponsor an interfaith dialogue between the world's monotheistic religions — specifically including Jews. It was the first such initiative from a nation with no diplomatic ties to Israel and a ban on non-Muslim religious services and symbols.
He said Wednesday that the Islamic world faces difficult challenges from the extremism of some Muslims, whose aggressions "target the magnanimity, fairness and lofty aims of Islam."
"That's why (the conference) invitation was extended — to face the challenges of isolation, ignorance and narrow horizons, so that the world can absorb the good message of Islam," he said.
"target the magnanimity, fairness and lofty aims of Islam" -
Magnanimity towards Arab Muslims, in particular rich Saudis.
Fairness towards Arab Muslims, in particular rich Saudis.
Lofty aims means the total Arabization of the world.
No thanks.
I don't suppose this conference will be attacked by Muslims for being too moderate, as was the demonstration in Indonesia. It's amazing what a few guards with submachineguns will do.
I'm curious as to how they define peaceful co-existence with Jews and Christians. Does that include the dhimi tax and second-rate citizen status for non Muslims? Doesn't quite measure up to "...all mean are created equal..."
"Abdullah announced in March that he wanted to sponsor an interfaith dialogue between the world's monotheistic religions"
What the King is really looking for is an acknowledgement by Christians and Jews that Islam is a legitimate, God-inspired, heir of Judaism and Christianity. Any Christian or Jew attending such a conference will be expected to pay homage in a hundred different ways to Muhammad as a ligitimate Prophet of God.
Unfortunately, the Christian and Jewish religious establishments are packed with people more than willing to oblidge the King and his Imams -- all in the name of religious dialogue.
Not everyone in Saudi Arabia is ready for interfaith-healing racketeering of this transparent sort.
For example, a great many Sunni clerics not only regard Christians and Jews with murderous horror, but haven't a good word to say about Shi'a either:
Saudi clerics criticize Shiites for destabilizing
By DONNA ABU-NASR
The Associated Press
Sunday, June 1, 2008
RIYADH, Saudi Arabia -- Hardline Sunni clerics accused Shiites Sunday of destabilizing Muslim countries and humiliating Sunnis, just days before a Muslim interfaith conference called by Saudi Arabia's king.
The attacks on Iran, Iraq and Hezbollah _ though contrary to official policy _ highlight the sharp, growing distrust between Islam's two arms, and its potential to cause more unrest.
In a strongly worded statement, the 22 clerics savaged Iranian-backed Hezbollah militants, saying the Lebanese Shiite group has tricked other Muslims into believing it is against Jews and Americans.
The statement appeared on several Web sites Sunday, including http://www.almoslim.com, which is run by Sheik Nasser al-Omar, one of the signers. The 22 clerics are known for their radical views and have previously released virulent anti-Shiite statements.
A Saudi official told The Associated Press that the clerics who issued the statement do not represent the official Saudi religious establishment, and their views do not reflect those adopted by the government. He spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue.
But the clerics' anti-Shiite diatribe reflects growing Sunni distrust of Shiites and Iran. The trend surfaced with the sectarian unrest in Iraq over the past year and escalated dramatically after Hezbollah, in a show of force, overran predominantly Sunni areas of Beirut last month.
Al-Qaida's No. 2 leader Ayman al-Zawahri has accused Iran in recent messages of seeking to extend its power in the Middle East, particularly in Iraq and through its Hezbollah allies in Lebanon.
In their statement the clerics accused Shiites of abusing Sunnis under their control.
"If they (Shiites) have a country, they humiliate and exert control in their rule over Sunnis," said the clerics, specifically citing Iran and Iraq. "They sow strife, corruption and destruction among Muslims and destabilize security in Muslim countries ... such as Yemen."
The Yemeni government is engaged in a fight against rebels from the al-Zaydi sect of Shiite Islam and officials in Yemen and Saudi Arabia suspect Iran of supporting the insurgency.
Najib al-Khonaizi, a Saudi Shiite writer, called the statement "dangerous" and damaging to national unity.
"This statement in its essence is a cheap call for incitement," he told the AP. Shiites make up an estimated 10-15 percent of Saudi Arabia's 22 million people
The statement is potentially embarrassing for the government because it comes a few days before the opening of a much-touted Muslim interfaith conference in the holy city of Mecca that aims at closing Muslim ranks and discussing dialogue with other faiths. Over 500 Islamic scholars _ reportedly including former Iranian President Hashemi Rafsanjani _ are expected to attend the three-day conference, which begins Wednesday.
The event is the first step of a wider interfaith dialogue between Muslims and adherents of other religions, notably Christians and Jews, that King Abdullah called for a few months ago.
Saudi Arabia, which follows the severe Wahhabi interpretation of Sunni Islam that considers Shiites infidels, is worried by the growing regional influence of Iran's Shiite government and its allies in Iraq, the Palestinian territories and Lebanon.
The 2003 U.S-led war to topple Saddam Hussein's Sunni-run regime in Iraq has rekindled the centuries-old divide between Sunni and Shiite Muslims.
The historic split, which resulted from a succession dispute after Prophet Muhammad's death in 632, reopened in Iraq as Sunni extremists began targeting Shiites allied with the U.S. in Iraq, who retaliated with death squad killings of their own.
As the numbers of Sunnis killed by shadowy Shiite death squads in Iraq mounted, outrage grew around the region, reaching its peak when tensions between Lebanon's sects flared into gun battles in May.
Some Arab media outlets and Web sites have portrayed the Lebanese street fights as a Shiite incursion against Sunnis _ a claim Hezbollah has denied. They have also said that Hezbollah and its leader, Sheik Hassan Nasrallah, have lost the admiration they won across the Arab world when the group bombarded northern Israel with nearly 4,000 rockets during a 34-day war with Israel in summer 2006.
"Today, more than 200 million Arabs see him (Nasrallah) as fighting the Sunni enemy," wrote Abdul-Rahman al-Rashed, head of the Saudi-owned Al-Arabiya TV, in Asharq al-Awsat newspaper a week after violence erupted in Lebanon.
"Nasrallah ... has pushed the region into a Sunni-Shiite conflict for at least the next 10 years, not only in Lebanon, but also in the rest of the Arab and perhaps Islamic world," he added. "Millions of Sunnis feel that he has gone too far in humiliating Sunnis."
Uhhhh ... I think I'll pass. I have a conflicting appointment with a witch doctor planning to drag by brains out through my nose - with a red-hot wire clothes hanger. Can't miss it.
As has been mentioned many times, this rift between sunni & shiite should be fomented by the West.
so that the world can absorb the good message of Islam," he said.
Absorbed...Yep, now your getting warmer. How can you possibly refuse a 'good' message? Only the insane and those worthy of death would even consider it.
So this pre-interfaith dialogue conference, criticizing those muslims who are isolationist, who are narrow-minded, who target the "fairness" of Islam, etc., etc., was held in ... Mecca.
Oh, the irony.
So this pre-interfaith dialogue conference, criticizing those muslims who are isolationist, who are narrow-minded, who target the "fairness" of Islam, etc., etc., was held in ... Mecca.
Oh, the irony.
Posted by: CJ at June 5, 2008 12:52 PM
My sentiment, exactly.
Perhaps good King Abdullah can teach all of the assembled Sunnis, Shi'as, Jews and Christians to sing "Kumbaya" in Arabic. I assume that Bahais will also be welcome, as well as Zoroastrians, Mormons, and Scientologists. Reginald "Can't we all just get along?" Denny can be the M.C.
awake, I followed your "dialogue" over at Umar's, and actually posted a comment, but it didn't get past the moderator, who probably didn't like my suggestion that "If someone despises Islam as the invention of a thieving, murderous, treaty breaking, wife stealing/sex obsessed tyrant, bigot, and probable psychotic...then he isn't an 'Islamophobe,' per se."
whats the matter with saudi king. has he turned senile. what about rafsanjani. has he forgotten what sunnis did to ali and shites. sunnis and shias should fight it out and settle their old scores. we should provide whatever assistance we can. afterall people have to defend their honour by butchering others. it's all in Quran. allah said it.
It's all just lipstick on a pig. The Islamic ideology is a medieval tribal warrior code that has afflicted humanity for more than 13 centuries. It, like cannibalism, Nazism, communism, feudalism, and thousands of other failed ideologies that have arisen throughout history, must be expunged from the planet except as part of humanity's collective memory so that it should hopefully never again be repeated.
Lex,
It may still be in moderation. Umar is a busy man, driving that cab, you know.
This is not the opening of an "Interfaith Dialogue." It is the opening of a well-financed propaganda campaign, and it will be participated in only by those, among Christians and Jews, have learned nothing over the past half-dozen years. Think only of all the Muslim clerics who showed up, just after 9/11/2001, when they were running scared, showed up to make pious pronouncements at Interfaith-Healing vigils and statements of solidarity and, especially, assurances by Christian and Jewish clergymen that whatever else might be said, no one could say that Islam, or Muslims, were to blame. Islam, and Muslims -- save for the handful of extremists led astray, somehow (we never know quite how, do we? We never learn how they misread or misinterpret those texts, do we?)-- remained blameless.
Here's an idea.
Why don't Christians and Jews insist that such a "dialogue" not be limited to them, but include Hindus, Jains, Sikhs, Buddhists, and all others who wish to participate? And then, instead of the usual blah about the "three abrahamic faiths" and "the three great monotheisms," there will be a discussion of the proper role of what we call "religions." And let there be a discussion about human freedom, and the freedo to choose a religion, or leave on, for another religion, or for none at all. Yes, let the subject be given some such title as "Faith: Religion, Worldly Power, and The Freedom of the Individual."
And invite King Abdullah. Invite those Saudi clerics, too, the ones who just denounced the Shi'a. Invite representatives from faiths that do not count as among the "three abrahamic blahblah" faiths.
Tape every word.
Play it on the Internet.
Saudi king calls for end to "extremism"[Islam]
And this 'interfaith dialogue' will take place at the Kaaba in Mecca, right? And end with an agreement to build as many Churches and Synogogues in the Muslim world, particularly in Saudi Arabia, as there are outside the Muslim world, right? And that there are some among us that take this King Rat seriously.....
'....we are a voice of [Muslim] justice and [Muslim] values and [Muslim] humanity, that we are a voice of [Muslim] coexistence and a just and rational dialogue," Abdullah told the 500 Muslim delegates...'
I had to stop cold at the 'just & rational dialogue' bit.
Yes, Saudis call for an end of the extreme notions such as freedom of speech, religion, assembly, the press, etc. Also, such exteme notions as the Earth is not flat, Arabs didn't invent the airplane (or everything else for that matter), Arabs are not "the best of peoples" (Mohammad's proclamation), Jews are not apes and Christians are not pigs (or is it vice-versa?).
Yes, those deep-thinking, progressive Saudis, where would we be without them? Or 9/11, or 7/7, etc, etc, etc.
In other words, the best Saudis (as views by the state) are the worst of peoples.
http://www.bravenewsworld.blogspot.com
Someone should put the question to King Abdullah that if he's really serious about what he says, then why not allow Christianity and other religions to be freely preached in Saudi Arabia the same way Saudis can preach the Islamic faith in Western countries and elsewhere? This would include the building of churches and other non-Muslim houses of worship throughout the Saudi kingdom. For myself, this represents the absolute minimum that must occur before I would ever extend to Islam the same respect I extend to all other major religions. The absolute minimum.
The Saudi's started it so they should stop it.
The three-day gathering in the holy city of Mecca seeks a unified Muslim voice ahead of the interfaith dialogue. In particular, Saudi Arabia hopes to promote reconciliation between Shiite and Sunni Muslims.
.....................
Other posters have pointed out the irony of holding this conference not just in Saudi Arabia--a nation which bans practice of any religion but Islam, confiscates bibles and crosses, and refuses entry to anyone holding an Israeli passport--but in Mecca itself, a city which is off limits to all non-Muslims, and even members of minority Muslim sects like the Ahmidaya.
The whole idea of the "unified Muslim voice" is Sunni jockeying--specifically, majority Sunni Saudi Arabia is seeing the rising influence of Shi'ite Iran, especially through proxy Hizb'allah. Hizb'allah is becoming a major player in the mostly Sunni Levant, especially poor Lebanon--where they so recently flexed their muscles--and in the "Palestinian territories".
Saudi Arabia is just reasserting their prominence, and doing so in the birthplace of Islam.
This would hardly be worthy of more than passing notice, except that many Westerners are likely to make much of this stand against "extremism".
What, exactly, is their stand against extremism? This gives a clue:
"the Islamic world faces difficult challenges from the extremism of some Muslims, whose aggressions "target the magnanimity, fairness and lofty aims of Islam."
There is no concern for the injury and death of Infidels due to these aggressions. There is only the concern that extremism or terrorism makes Islam look bad in the eyes of Dar-al-Harb, and may lead Infidels to be more cautious--perhaps even to fight back.
Can't have that.
I'm curious as to how they define peaceful co-existence with Jews and Christians. Does that include the dhimi tax and second-rate citizen status for non Muslims? Doesn't quite measure up to "...all mean are created equal..."
I think we know how they define peaceful co-existence with Jews and Christians. It might be just like Tom Kratman's novel Caliphate http://www.amazon.com/Caliphate-Tom-Kratman/dp/1416555455/ref=cm_cr_pr_pb_i (a book about a future Europe dominated by Islam as seen through the eyes of a young German Christian set between 2103-2113 with flashbacks to the period 2003-2024 detailing how this dystopian world came to be, which I've just read, and by God, does it send shivers down the spine?).
As a good will gesture, the King announced the plans for the construction of the Banu Qurayza Memorial Synagogue in Medina....
And then, I woke up to reality.....
Abdullah announced in March that he wanted to sponsor an interfaith dialogue between the world's monotheistic religions — specifically including Jews. It was the first such initiative from a nation with no diplomatic ties to Israel and a ban on non-Muslim religious services and symbols.
What does it mean, "sponsor a dialogue"?
Let the man be a good sponsor and HOST a dialogue. Let him invite all other monotheists to his home country. Invite everyone to Mecca. Allow them to practice their faith in your fair country.
"reconciliation" between Sunni and Shiite Muslims?
How is that possible without Arabs giving up the idea of preeminence within Islam? Will the Persians accept the role of second fiddle?
"...and present the religion's positive message, Saudi King Abdullah said Wednesday..."
What positive message? There is none.
"He said Wednesday that the Islamic world faces difficult challenges from the extremism of some Muslims, whose aggressions "target the magnanimity, fairness and lofty aims of Islam." --King Abdullah of Sowdi Arabia
You've got to be kidding! We don't fall for that "al-Taqiyya" crap anymore! "Lofty aims!" --LOL!
The Saudis are against extremism: Extreme blasphemy, extreme tolerance, extreme freedom, extreme pluralism, extreme modernity etc...
Yeah, when they have freedom of speech, press, and religion in Saudi Arabia, then I´ll believe the Saudi king about wanting "dialog." For now, the only "dialog" his kingdom seems to like is the "we talk, you listen" kind. The place is a desert in more ways than one.
Every time I see a news item about Islam - particularly when it has to do with the Saudis (although EVERYTHING Islamic has to do with the Saudis at root) - I feel like banging my head on the desk.
Folks, WE are paying for this global enslavement by Islam! Every time we buy Middle Eastern oil, we are putting yet another buck in their well-lined pockets. I mean, what the hell did our leaders expect decades ago when they got us all addicted to foreign oil? A disastrous foreign policy that is leading to our destruction. Please, folks, we need to CLAMOR LOUDLY FOR TERROR-FREE OIL AND ALTERNATIVE ENERGY
Now that the filthy rich Muslims are branching out, it is too late to prevent them from continuing to make money in other industries, but at least we can stop handing them trillion$ in OIL MONEY to use against us in our enslavement.
PLEASE - WE MUST RECOGNIZE THIS GOLDEN RULE!!
The Truth About Islam
Sharia Finance Will Reach $1 TRILLION in 5 Years!
Well, we're all going to be "friends" now?
After they wreck our economy with sky-high oil prices that cause sky-high food prices that cause sky-high everything prices.
This was the plan put forward by Hugo Chavez at the last Oil Tick Meeting.
We had better get busy with a Manhattan Project for alternative energy and let the OPEC'rs drink their oil. Oh yeah, NOTHING to the offending countries....no parts, no weapons, no nothing.
Well, we're all going to be "friends" now?
After they wreck our economy with sky-high oil prices that cause sky-high food prices that cause sky-high everything prices.
This was the plan put forward by Hugo Chavez at the last Oil Tick Meeting.
We had better get busy with a Manhattan Project for alternative energy and let the OPEC'rs drink their oil. Oh yeah, NOTHING to the offending countries....no parts, no weapons, no nothing.
Darcy,
Yes, indeed.
Lofty aims - to inform the entire world of the love of allah if only they will bow before him.
fairness - they will treat everyone equally, that is everyone within each group.
magnanimity - they will agree not to blow us up if only we will accept allah or abide by the sharia and pay the jizya. Aren't they generous?
Well, we're all going to be "friends" now?
After they wreck our economy with sky-high oil prices that cause sky-high food prices that cause sky-high everything prices.
This was the plan put forward by Hugo Chavez at the last Oil Tick Meeting.
We had better get busy with a Manhattan Project for alternative energy and let the OPEC'rs drink their oil. Oh yeah, NOTHING to the offending countries....no parts, no weapons, no nothing.
A "rational dialogue" among cults? This oxymoron never was and never will be!
I clicked post ONE time.
Overheard by the Phillipino wait staff:
"Okay, boys, now how do we get 'SUBMIT OR DIE!' to sound better? Any suggestions?"
"Ooo! I got it! How about "We'll teach you peace for life!'"
(General laughter.)
An OT
http://galliawatch.blogspot.com/2008/05/mosque-for-gien.html
Sunday May 25, after three years of construction, the Turkish Cultural and Religious Association Gien-Briare inaugurated its mosque amidst great pomp. Besides the mayors of the surrounding cities, the sub-prefect of Montargis, Madame Martinez-Pommier, along with representatives of the Turkish consulate in France attended the event. In order to make their dream a reality, each Turkish colonist contributed 1800 euros, making possible the importation from Turkey of a mosaic façade and a large prayer rug. The regional daily paper République du Centre, adds that besides classes in sharia law, Turkish-language classes will be programmed for children every week, since the mosque, "over and beyond its religious aspect is a true cultural center."
The event did not go unnoticed in Gien, where posters cover the walls of all the neighborhoods announcing the opening, that culminated in a party in a hall belonging to the city, with songs, dances and Turkish culinary specialties, and of course the inevitable whirling dervishes. The president of the mosque's association, Adem Cift, with a straight face declared to the press: "What is not well known is that the Turkish people are very open and love to share. This gives them a chance to show it."
Some examples of Turkey's openness:
- Barring Catholics from any legal statute that would allow them to organize into an association to collect money for the construction or restoration of a church.
- Barring all foreign religious persons from obtaining a visa, no matter how short-term.
- Seizure of the property of the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Istanbul.
- On-going ban on talking about the two remaining centuries-old monasteries of Tur Abdin that have been closed since 1979.
- The Orthodox seminary of Halki, the main center of theological training of the Greek Orthodox world, has been closed since 1974, and is forbidden by the Islamist government from re-opening.
- The northern part of Cyprus, occupied by Turkey, has experienced a total religious cleansing: 82 churches were at one time present on this territory. Today not one is a place of worship: 68 have been transformed into mosques, 5 into stables, 4 into museums, 3 into army barracks, 2 into residences. On August 27, 2004, a bomb exploded in front of one of them... Etienne Leroy, a research analyst specializing in Turkey, says ironically of the Turkish system of "laïcité": "It is difficult to be reassured about the tolerance of a 'laïc State' that indicates religion on the ID's of its citizens, that refuses to authorize the restoration of the oldest church in Christendom (in Ourfa, formerly Edessa), and that uses abandoned Armenian churches as targets for artillery exercises on the Anatolian plateau. No one should be fooled by Turkish "laïcité."
The photo from Ramayana shows the rather lonely-looking but still beautiful Armenian church of the Holy Cross, on Akdamar Island, Lake Van. The church dates from 921.
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These so-called 'dialogues' by Saudis is their trying to get validation as a religion equal to other world religions, while they act as a Cult. Until they reform their supremacist world domination ideology, which is not likely, no deal. Islamic Jihad rules over any 'peaceful' tenets of Islam, and Sharia is against our laws of freedom and universal human rights. So, no deal.
It's a Cult. We're sick and tired of their lies. No deal.
Certainly the royal family wants an end to "extremism" and desires the ME stability that would follow that end. This political stability gives them time they need to continue cashing in on the unprecedentedly high oil prices. Don't stir the pot you troublemaking jihadis...ching ching.
Time is NOT on our side.
Of course the Saudis want moderates... The misunderstanders want the Royal Family gone too...