This horrible story offers an opportunity yet again to show that the information Islamic spokesmen provide to non-Muslims in the West is often incomplete, misleading, or outright deceptive. A few months ago the British convert to Islam Yusuf Smith asserted at Jihad Watch: "I have never heard anyone suggest that FGM is spreading in the west..."
Now you have, Yusuf. And this isn't the first time, either.
"Couple charged in Norway for circumcising 5 girls," from Reuters, June 6 (thanks to the Constantinopolitan Irredentist):
OSLO (Reuters) - Police in Norway have arrested a Gambian-born man and charged him and his wife with subjecting five of their six daughters to genital mutilation, officials said on Friday.The practice, also known as female circumcision, is outlawed in Norway and arouses horror among many people in the West but is a rite of passage for young women in many countries, predominantly in Africa.
Oh. That makes it all right in Africa, eh, Reuters?
The youngest of the five mutilated girls, all born in Norway, is five years old, police officials said. The others are aged seven, 10, 13 and 14 and live in Gambia, national broadcaster NRK reported.Police officer Hanne Kristin Rohde, head of the violent crime and vice section of the Oslo police, said on Norwegian commercial television TV 2 that the father -- a naturalized Norwegian citizen along with his wife -- was taken into custody on Friday.
"Norwegian police have charged this couple of Gambian background for breaking the Norwegian law on genital mutilation -- five of their six daughters are circumcised," Rohde said.
The mother is pregnant with a seventh child and was deemed unfit to be held in jail.
Norwegian authorities have been cracking down on the practice since mid-2007, barring families from traveling abroad if they suspect they plan to have the procedure done outside the country....
U.N. agencies say an estimated 100 to 140 million women and girls worldwide have undergone genital mutilation, whose proponents say it promotes chastity before marriage and fidelity afterwards by reducing female sexual desire. Around 3 million a year are believed to be subjected to it.
"The mother.....was deemed to be unfit to be held in jail." How about "unfit to be a mother"!!! I hope they put these barbarians in jail for a LONG time and put ALL their children under protection of the state! (And deport them back to Gambia, after their sentences, for being "incompatable with living in a civilized country"!
More Robert Spencer idiocy
"This horrible story offers an opportunity yet again to show that the information Islamic spokesmen provide to non-Muslims in the West is often incomplete, misleading, or outright deceptive."
Does that include non-Muslims of African descent amongst whom FGM is also
" A few months ago the British convert to Islam Yusuf Smith asserted at Jihad Watch: "I have never heard anyone suggest that FGM is spreading in the west..."
Now you have, Yusuf. And this isn't the first time, either."
1) Since when is Yusuf Smith an Islamic spokesman ?
2) You quoted cases involving 6 people- wow Robert it really is spreading!! - presumably you believe Muslims amongst whom it is totally unknown will suddenly jump on the practice as "Islamic"
FGM is an Africa practice by Africans of all religions. It is unknown in the rest of the Muslim world precisely because it is African not an Islamic act.
Hirsi Ali states it does NOT reduce desire. Only reduces pleasure achievable.
And who is paying for those seven children? Are they state supported? Is the family employed? And if the procedure was done abroad, who paid for the trip? If unemployed how do they afford to travel? If done in country who did it?
And they haven't done one girl yet. Is that because she is three and still too young?
And of course no mention of islam anywhere.
It's unknown in the Muslim world? That's why Mohammad who lived in Arabia commented on it.
And DID NOT CONDEMN IT.
"It's unknown in the Muslim world? That's why Mohammad who lived in Arabia commented on it.
borg"
yes -it existed in the pre-islamic Arab age. Its unknown in the Arab world, Central Asia and India and Pakistan- in fact everywhere except Africa
Islam + female genital mutilation, a natural.
Take a away a woman's public face, destroy any solace or desire to be had from the act of sex. Ah! A woman's paradise as the Prophet-Pederast says, 'is under a man's foot'.
More istanbulnotconstantinople idiocy! Greetings Mr. Mohammedan - How's the Religion of War and the Global Jihad doing today? You gloating over the West's 21st century Political Correctness, esp. after 9/11? I'm sure you are.
Fact: The barbaric atrocity of FGM is practiced against girls in Africa of all religions, and against Mohammedan girls all over Islam.
Got any more "taqiyya" up your sleeve, Mr. Mohammedan?
BTW - Enjoying using the Internet that Infidels invented, LOL! Along with all of the medical advancements of modern science? Or, do you still believe that camel piss, as advocated by your false prophet, cures all ills? So LOL!
yes -it existed in the pre-islamic Arab age. Its unknown in the Arab world, Central Asia and India and Pakistan- in fact everywhere except Africa
Posted by: istanbulnotconstantinople at June 7, 2008 9:36 AM
That is the biggest load of Taqiyya!
FGM is committed against girls in Egypt in prodigious numbers, and ALL OVER Islamia, wherever Mohammedans roost. There you will find many atrocities committed against females, such as FGM and Honor Killings, also known as Daughter-Slaughter. And lets not forget Child Brides - marrying a 12-year-old-girl to a 50-year-old-man!
But, of course, the sterling example for that is false prophet Mo, who had sex with a nine-year-old girl. The dirty pedophile.
istanbulnotconstantinople:
Reality can be so inconvenient, can't it?
Yemeni Parliament votes down bill to outlaw female genital mutilation
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/020726.php
Ancient practices still a threat to Iraqi women
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/007798.php
Female circumcision surfaces in Iraq
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/007620.php
FGM in Indonesia, Pakistan, etc.:
http://www.irinnews.org/IndepthMain.aspx?IndepthId=15&ReportId=62462
And is it Islamic?
"FGM is a recommendation of the hadiths of the Prophet."
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/006162.php
Islamic scholar opposes ban on female circumcision
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/019243.php
And see the Yemeni Parliament story above.
But I'm the idiot. Of course!
Cordially
Robert Spencer
istanbulnotconstantinople,
You're welcome.
Of course inquiring about female anatomy in that part of the world simply isn't done. Female health being the last consideration, just below camel beauty contests. So propagandists like the turkey from Istanbul can benefit from the cover up.
darcy your reply was an intellectual tour de force
"Fact: The barbaric atrocity of FGM is practiced against girls in Africa of all religions, and against Mohammedan girls all over Islam."
It is compeletely unknown in the subcontinet, Central Asia, Iran and the Arab world
"BTW - Enjoying using the Internet that Infidels invented, LOL! Along with all of the medical advancements of modern science? "
Islam has never restricted knowledge to just from Muslims The Prophet said "seek knowledge even unto China" (which is of course a non-Muslim country)
"darcy your reply was an intellectual tour de force" --The Mohammedan
Yes, I know. Thank You! But, Mr. Spencer's is, of course, even more so, and he provides examples with links!
Happy Reading, Mr. "Taqiyya" Mohammedan!
Islam has never restricted knowledge to just from Muslims The Prophet said "seek knowledge even unto China" (which is of course a non-Muslim country)
Posted by: istanbulnotconstantinople at June 7, 2008 10:05 AM
Well, it's a good thing your false prophet said that, otherwise you'd have only algebra and the aforementioned camel piss.
"Well, it's a good thing your false prophet said that, otherwise you'd have only algebra and the aforementioned camel piss.
Posted by: darcy"
Just the camel stuff. No algebra.
Just the camel stuff. No algebra.
Posted by: arjun.sevak at June 7, 2008 10:24 AM
lol! But, Arjun, didn't an Arabian named al-jabr (from which "algebra" is derived) invent algebra, sometime back in the 9th century or thereabouts?
I mean, haven't the Mohammedans invented SOMETHING?
You know, it's funny that an average Mohammedan, probably your average Joe Mohammedan, who believes he's of the "superior peoples," thinks he can come on JW and tell us a thing or two!
It's common knowledge that FGM exists in Islamic countries, whether or not RS published links, which he did. Great - hope Joe Mohammedan had a wonderful time reading them. Learned anything Joe? How 'bout how YOU are the "idiot."
Look at your Mohammedan countries, Joe. You're not "superior." Look at Mohammedans immigrating in droves to the West. Gee, I wonder why they're doing that? Could it be that life is, on the whole, BETTER, in the West? Or, is the whole immigration thing just Global Jihad, and nothing more?
Enjoy driving in your vehicle today that Infidels invented.
It's a fact that 95%of EGYPTIAN women are circumcised. Is this not the "arab world"?
PLEASE READ:
http://www.challenging-islam.org/articles/circumcision.htm
scroll halfway down:
http://middle-east-info.org/gateway/genocide/index.htm
WARNING: GRAPHIC IMAGES
http://middle-east-info.org/league/somalia/fgmpictures.htm
http://www.londonschoolofislamics.org.uk/DiscView.asp?mid=864&forum_id=2
This is going on in MY SUBURB of the TWIN CITIES. Authorities are looking the other way even though it's against State Law.
CGW - great response, but I think our Lyin' Joe Mohammedan has departed.
It was all over for him after RS published pertinent links! Hello!
When you argue with a Muslim apologist, remember that they are not hampered by the truth. In fact, they believed that that lying to kuffars is sanctioned by Allah.
In fact, they believed that that lying to kuffars is sanctioned by Allah.
Posted by: tanstaafl at June 7, 2008 11:40 AM
Actually, I believe it's Mohammed who gave the go-ahead to "Taqiyya." But, he's "Allah," so, no dif!
"Taqiyya" is a war Tactic. Lao-Tzu would say as much. But our Fear-Filled Dhimmi Leaders would rather deny or ignore it's existence.
Even his moniker shows that he approves of islamic conquest. What excuse do muslims have for the conquering of Constantinople anyway? They always say conquest is because of national or territory reasons. And yet the truth is that Mo said to conquer it in the koran. And they know it.
Why aren't they calling for Constantinople to be given back? And the Hagia Sophia to be returned to Christians. There is NO doubt about it's history? Well? Where are the muslims who are calling for fairness? Repatriation? Zip...
Sun-tzu, Darcy, not Lao-tzu.
It would be interesting to know whether or not the "mother" is also circumcised.
Sun-tzu, Darcy, not Lao-tzu.
Posted by: skevin at June 7, 2008 3:25 PM
You're right. Sun!
I notice Joe Mohammedan hasn't returned! Guess he read RS's links!
Mohammad, in the Hadiths, approves of it.
A genital mutilator in the 7th century asked Mohammad if he gave "female circumcision"
(as if there even is such a thing, since women do not have a prepuce)
his blessing.
He did, with the bizarre caveat "as long as you don't cut too much" -whatever the hell that meant. (Literally: "Do not cut too severely." -Hadith Book 41; #5251, Abu Dawud.)
Sick from the start; sick to this day.
Islam: excusing lunacies since 622 A.D.
Yawn
It seems there is confusion about female circumcison (a light clipping ) and FGM (the removing of the whole of the labia). In any case the former isnt practiced widely in most parts of the Muslim world despite Roberts desperate attempts to prove otherwise.
No one answers this question:
One wonders why female circumsion is called genital mutilation but male circumsion isnt?
Guess its because Jews dont practice female circumsion
So why is male circumsions OK but not female?
Some links
http://www.minaret.org/fgm-pamphlet.htm
http://www.jannah.org/genderequity/equityappendix.html
http://www.islamtoday.com/showme2.cfm?cat_id=2&sub_cat_id=822
http://lamppostproductions.org/node/81
btw I support a ban of female circumcision which I wouldnt if it was Islamic.
Yawn.
So predictable. Taqiyya, kitman, tu-quoque -- all to no avail. I guess you gave it the ol' college try, though. Er, make that madrassa try. Wouldn't want to diss the islamic contribution to higher education, now would we?
In an earlier comment, istanbulnotconstantinople asked:
'So why is male circumsions OK but not female?'
Would anyone care to respond to istanbulnotconstantinople's question?
Male circumcision does not entail removal of the penis, Willy. That's why it's 'okay' and removal of the clitoris is NOT.
So removal of tissue other than than the clitoris would be OK? The inner labia, for example?
Male circumcision is usually done for health concerns. There is no health reason for hacking up female genitalia.
I understand that in certain cases there is a medical necessity for this procedure to correct an existing condition.
However, it is also my understanding that the vast majority of instances of male circumcision are undertaken in the absence of any current medical condition which the procedure is intended to address.
How would you justify the application of this procedure to a male child in the absence of a medical condition, yet oppose the corresponding procedure being applied to a female child?
Willy E.-
The male prepuce is more prone to infections and to retaining disease-carrying material (sexually transmitted, and especially AIDS-related) and this may have been the historical reason for its removal in the first place, since medical treatments were abysmally primitive when the ancient Egyptians began the practice.
Currently, male circumcison it is more a cultural act than a medical necessity (especially with knowledge of how to disinfect the area, antibiotics, et al) and has no particular value except "spiritually", -for the Jews and Muslims.
The transposing of this procedure onto females, where it has no health value whatsoever, since the anatomy is quite different, renders it more a form of patriarchal control over women's sexuality than anything health-related or even rational, since the operation causes more risks than the imaginary advantages it confers ("purity" or "visual appeal" to whatever males cannot handle the sight of one this world's most sublime creations:
the naturally-divine female mons veneris.)
While I realize, Isstanbuletc. is a troll, and should not be fed lest he grow bigger and uglier, I shall put in my two cents worth and concede with the other posters here that Istan-Bull's claim that FGM is practiced only in Africa is nonsense.
What about Egypt, where FGM is extremely common? Or does he consider Egypt to be a part of Africa? Maybe so, but it would be hard to convince anyone but the geographically illiterate that Indonesia is a part of Africa.
O.K., so FGM is not practiced by all Muslims, nor exclusively by Muslims. But only someone rafting a river in Egypt (i.e., in DEEP denial) could deny that the overwhelming majority of people who practice it today are Muslims. Why is Islam so compatible with the practice? Why do religious leaders tolerate it, if not advocate it? Why has the mass conversion of Africans to Islam not succeeded in wiping it out? Can Istan-Bull bear to ask himself that question?
And as for the red herring of "what about male circumcision blah blah blah" that some pitiful male always has to throw in this debate, male circumcision, while I do not like it (particularly in the way Muslims practice it) and would never have it done to any male child of mine unless it was medically necessary, is vastly different from even the least extreme version of FGM, and its PURPOSE has nothing to do with the purpose of FGM, which is to cripple or destroy a woman's sexuality. Male circumcision does have proven medical benefits; circumcised males have far fewer rates of infections and STDs, and their partners far lower rates of infection with the virus that causes cervical cancer, and it doesn't affect a male's sexuality at all. Many un-circumcised boys or men have to get circumcised later in life because of problems with chronic infections. I don't consider any of this justification for routinely performing circumcision on all male children, but at least there are some sound scientific principles behind it. FGM has absolutely no benefits; on the contrary, it CAUSES chronic infections, rather than alleviates them.
Istan-Bull wrote: "It seems there is confusion about female circumcison (a light clipping ) and FGM (the removing of the whole of the labia)."
Who's confused? It's all mutilation. The clitoris is a tiny organ; there's no such thing as a "light clipping" of it. "Clipping" it is the equivalent of hacking off an entire penis. Removing it doesn't make it absolutely impossible for a woman to have an orgasm, but makes it pretty damn difficult, and that's the whole point. The whole object of FGM in ALL its forms is to cripple, or preferably kill, God-given female sexuality. No, no-one is confused about it here, except you.
First, just to back up profitsbeard, here is a passage from 'Reliance of the Traveller'. Rev Dr Mark Durie discusses the way in which Nuh Ha Mim Keller, the English convert to Islam who translated the authoritative sharia law manual, Reliance of the Traveller, concealed (from those ignorant of Arabic) the full force of the Arabic text that describes female genital mutilation.
"Female circumcision
"‘Umdat al-Salik itself [in English] contains an example of misleading translation.
"In Nuh Ha Mim Keller’s edition, the original Arabic text is published facing the English translation. The English translation of the section on circumcision appears to be a deliberate mis-translation of the Arabic instructions for circumcising girls:
"The Arabic text is: [Durie provides Arabic text but in my copy of the online source, it has not registered]
"This is translated by Nuh Hah Mim Keller as follows:
“'Circumcision is obligatory (O: for both men and women. For men it consists of removing the prepuce from the penis, and for women, removing the prepuce (Ar. Bazr) of the clitoris (n: not the clitoris itself, as some mistakenly assert). (A: Hanbalis hold that circumcision of women is not obligatory but sunna, while Hanafis consider it a mere courtesy to the husband.)”
"However what the Arabic actually says is:
'Circumcision is obligatory (for every male and female) by cutting off the piece of skin on the glans of the penis of the male, but circumcision of the female is by cutting out the clitoris (this is called HufaaD).'
Durie remarks:
'This deceptive translation obscures the Shafi’i law, given by ‘Umdat al-Salik, that circumcision of girls by excision of the clitoris is mandatory. This form of female circumcision is widely practiced in Egypt, where the Shafi’i school of Sunni law is followed.'
EXCISION OF THE CLITORIS. So one whole school of Islamic law sees nothing wrong with CUTTING IT ALL OUT.
So: Islam in Egypt and across Africa has absorbed and perpetutated an incredibly abusive 'pre-Islamic' custom; whilst seemingly able to obliterate all manner of OTHER 'non-Islamic' or 'pre-Islamic' customs, Islam simply couldn't manage to get rid of *this* one? It doesn't even seem to have TRIED.
Further evidence of its spread beyond Islamised Africa, beyond Egypt, into...wait for it...'Palestinian' Arab Muslim society.
Geraldine Brooks, 'Nine Parts of Desire' (1995; Anchor Paperback Edition 1996), p. 161. Ms Brooks, a reporter, accompanied by a 'Palestinian' Arab Muslim woman, 'Asya', is in the Islamic University of Gaza in spring 1993, in the men's section of campus, interviewing the university spokesman, Ahmad Saati, 'a graduate of the Islam Institute of Higher Studies in Egypt'.
Brooks asked Mr Saati: "Why weren't the scholars speaking out against clitoridectomy, which had made its way to Gaza while the Strip was under Egyptian rule?' [i.e. 1948-1967].
[Ahmad replied]: "It is a sensitive subject. Some people say it makes women calmer. But of course Islam is against it. Every part of the body that is created has a function. It's like tonsils: only if it is threatening health should you remove it; if it is not threatening, leave it be.'
{NOTE: I think that Mr Ahmad Saati is here practising a classic bit of taqiyya and kitman - just stop and reflect on the Islamic terror of female sexuality...}.
'"Perhaps the women preachers are preaching against it. Of course, we don't have such operations here. In Egypt, but not here."
'"Among the older women..." Asya began, but Ahmad interrupted her. "Not here. Never among Palestinians."
'Asya was silent. THE NIGHT BEFORE, SHE HAD TOLD ME THAT HER MOTHER'S CLITORIS HAD BEEN REMOVED.'
In other words, Mr Ahmad Saati was lying through his teeth.
I am also told that during the jihad against Indonesian Christians in the Moluccas in the 1990s and early 2000s, both Christian men AND CHRISTIAN WOMEN were forcibly 'circumcised' by Muslim mobs as a sign of 'conversion' to Islam. Someone else here may like to give an appropriate link to first-hand testimony.
"It would be interesting to know whether or not the "mother" is also circumcised."
Posted by: Abscedere
Of course she is! That's why they need to start medically examining every woman from an FGM-practicing country before allowing her to immigrate, just like many countries require tests for TB, AIDS, and other STDs. Violation of privacy? Maybe so. But absolutely, 100 percent justifiable. If it hasn't been done to the woman, she sure as hell won't allow it to be done to her daughters. If it has been done to her, then at the very least she and her husband have to be told that they will not be allowed to continue the "tradition" in their new country, and that a close watch will be kept on them. Preferably (as would be my choice) they will not be allowed in at all.
Enough is enough. This is happening in Europe, for God's sake. EUROPE! The social welfare systems are enabling couples to have and fatten up six daughters just so they can send them back to their hellish homeland to be mutilated and sold into marital slavery. What's going to happen to the youngest of those 6 girls, and to the baby the mother is expecting, if it's also a girl? (That's probably why they have so many children; they're trying, unsucessfully so far, for a son; the girls are merely a useless burden.) Note that the article says four of those children are now back in Gambia. Why are they there, instead of in Norway with their parents? Who is taking care of them? Have the older ones, or all of them, already been married off?
These girls are all Norwegian citizens, entitled to the care and protection of their own country. Why are European countries allowing this to happen? WHY ARE THEY LETTING THESE F***ING BARBARIANS INTO THEIR COUNTRIES??
Please someone, enlighten me, or at least fix me a stiff drink, before I have a brain apoplexy.
It's a cultural thing.
Undoubtedly something to do with Norway.
1) Egypt is in Africa - FGM has been practised there since Pharoahnic times.
2) The idea that Jews or Muslims practice male circumcison for health reasons is absurd. Why dont you call male circumcision genital mutilation since thats what it is?
3)"O.K., so FGM is not practiced by all Muslims, nor exclusively by Muslims. "
exactly and this line effectively destroys Spencers bigotry in attributing it to Muslims and to Islam
"But only someone rafting a river in Egypt (i.e., in DEEP denial) could deny that the overwhelming majority of people who practice it today are Muslims. Why is Islam so compatible with the practice? Why do religious leaders tolerate it, if not advocate it? Why has the mass conversion of Africans to Islam not succeeded in wiping it out? Can Istan-Bull bear to ask himself that question?""
Why hasnt conversion to Christianity ended the practice in African Christian nations?
Cultural practice encourages women to want to undergo one of these procedures. It is often associated with positive attributes such as gaining respect within the village and becoming a woman. Most importantly, girls who have not undergone one of the procedures are considered more likely to be promiscuous and, therefore, unworthy of marriage. The belief also exists that external female genitals are unclean.
"Some use religion as the basis for their justification in performing these procedures, despite the fact they are not required by either the Quran or the Bible. Some Coptic Christian priests refuse to baptize girls who have not undergone one of the procedures. "
http://www.state.gov/g/wi/rls/rep/crfgm/10098.htm
Should coptic Christians from Ethiopia be banned from Europe?
(Re: earlier discussion of male circumcision, and why there appears to be much more concern about FGM among correspondents on this site)
I am inclined to agree with Profitsbeard:
'Currently, male circumcison it is more a cultural act than a medical necessity (especially with knowledge of how to disinfect the area, antibiotics, et al) and has no particular value except "spiritually", -for the Jews and Muslims.'
Both male circumcision and female genital mutilation, when carried out without the informed consent of the victim and in the absence of overwhelming medical necessity, constitute a denial of the person's autonomy over their own body.
The discrepancy between the horror reserved for FGM and the apparent placid acceptance of male circumcision both by principal writers on this website, as well as the regular commentators, smacks of hypocrisy.
If it is morally wrong for a parent or guardian to cause to be administered an unnecessary surgical procedure in the absence of informed consent by the patient, then that wrong is equivalent regardless of the gender of the victim.
It is interesting, this apparent reluctance by contributors to this site to condemn male circumcision whilst roundly condemning FGM. Since male circumcision is, I understand, a practice common among followers of Judaism, it suggests a willingness to apply different, more permissive standards to Jews than to Muslims. If true, this would significantly undermine the claims of the site to objectivity.
Am I missing something?
Taking away the clitoris and the labia takes away women's main sexual PLEASURE zones. They donot women to ENJOY sex!
While I did not have my boys circumcised, the difference is that circumcised men seem to still feel pleasue! :)
It's horrible and disgusting and I was appalled when a Peace Corps acquaintance defended the practice as "cultural." Her opinion also opened my eyes to "liberal, so-called openminded thinking."
Amazing attempts at deception by circular logic and semantics by the poster from Turkey (I presume a Muslim)above.
Is he practicing taqqiya or is he simply a bad student of Islam?
If he wants to learn about Islam to correct his ignorance he came to the right place!
angloirishslave
"male circumcision, while I do not like it (particularly in the way Muslims practice it)"
lol -how do Muslims practice it any different from anyone else ?. The way some Orthodox Jews practice it where the mohel puts the boys penis in his mouth and sucks the blood is truly barbaric.
This is unlike FGM a RELIGIOUS practice
http://www.slate.com/id/2125225/
type mohel into google and you can see the disgusting pictures. Yuck
It is quite amusing to see istanbulnotconstantinople shift his dance steps as the thread continues along. His first post said "FGM is an Africa practice by Africans of all religions. It is unknown in the rest of the Muslim world precisely because it is African not an Islamic act." And now that he has had the inconvenient reality of the facts thrown at him, he has shifted (in exactly the way Mr Spencer and others point out all the time) his argument, brought in a healthy dose of moral equivalency, and basically switched the subject altogether (we were not talking about male circumcision, we were talking about female genital mutilation).
Anyway, here is a great link to the Female Genital Cutting Education and Networking Project: http://www.fgmnetwork.org/intro/world.php
Please open Wikipedia or some online atlas to verify the majority population and religion of the countries listed. Even though most are indeed found in Africa, most of them are also majority Muslim countries.
Djibouti (94% Muslim) - 90-98% girls are cut
Egypt (90% Muslim) - 97.3% girls are cut
Gambia (90% Muslim) - 60-90% girls are cut
Mali (90% Muslim) - 91.6% of girls are cut
Mauritania (99% Muslim) - 71.5% girls are cut
Somalia (100% Muslim) - 90-98% girls are cut
Sudan (70% Muslim) - 90% of girls are cut
And of course, Indonesia, the most populous Muslim country on Earth with about 100 million Muslims, and it is estimated that 100% of girls there are cut.
It must be fun to live in the land of surreal irrationality where you can claim black is white, up is down, wrong is right, etc.
istanbulnotconstantinople, give it up, because you have lost this debate by a mile. Remember where you are; this is not just any website on jihad, and we are not your typical ignorant Infidels who are immediately silenced by your dazzling taqiyya. We are educated on the subject, and we know exactly where to look for information that you and other Muslim apologists would prefer to keep hidden away from our prying eyes. And you know what else? We have a voice, and little by little, day by day, we are educating friends, co-workers, family members, visitors to our blogs, strangers on the internet, anyone who will listen, about the factual dangers that Islam presents to all non-Muslims on the planet.
Some random thoughts, probably already covered by other posters above.
-- I'm rather agnostic about male circumcision, which I regard as basically distasteful and possibly even inhumane.
It's cropped up independently all over the world, primarily as a rite of passage from boyhood to manhood -- at which point in life it is quite painful. One assumes that proving manly resistance to the pain was/is part of the point of the ceremony.
I believe the Jewish practice was undertaken for health reasons and the act moved to infancy for humanitarian reasons -- as it is practiced among much of the general public today.
I've always been a little skeptical about this stuff, as it's always seemed a bit savage and gratuitous.
That said I have read that there is some real evidence that circumcision actually helps to control the spread of some diseases (AIDs particularly I think) because the prepusal mucosa, the inner mucous membrane, is vulnerable to attack by microbes.
I've never seen any evidence of lasting damage to health or the sexual experience.
=============
While FGM probably has a similar history as a social ritual:
-- I have never seen anyone make any sort of plausible claim of advantage to the subject of the operation.
-- It is surprisingly prevalent in the arab parts of Africa.
-- It has spread, apparently on mohammedanism's coattails, to the near east and as far out as Malasia and Indonesia, among both arab and non-arab mohammedan populations. (As shown in the links above).
The practice may have been adopted because it was understood as correct mohammedan practice, or because it was perceived as an arab cultural practice, with which the former is strongly linked in the minds of converts.
This would at least be consistent with the notion of arabic superiority that seems to travel everywhere that mohammadanism goes. The adoption of arab names, arab dress, etc... to the extent that the converted population understands them.
It is interesting, and amusing, that while we may debate among ourselves about whether this is an arab practice or a mohammedan practice or both, arab and non-arab mohammedan populations outside of Africa seem to be convinced that it is at least one -- and one has to presume that they have some reason to think so.
=============
Regarding Hirsi Ali's comment that it does not reduce desire -- and she certainly knows more than I ever will about it -- I'll say that while it may not affect the hormonal drivers of raw physical desire, if it reduces pleasure in the act, it reduces incentive to engage in sex.
There being less of a payoff ...
=============
The approval of the mohammedan preachers is interesting.
I think FGM represents an interesting intersection between mohammedanism's dark antagonism to human pleasure in general -- art, dance, sculpture, fashion, the social graces and pleasures of mixed male/female society -- and it's equally dark antagonism toward females in general.
They meet and overlap in the feminine experience of sex.
Western culture is full of expressions of the related joys of aesthetics, society and sex, in all sorts of celebrations of humanity and the human experience in general.
From the coming out party, the sculpture garden and the opera, to the church picnic, the high-school prom and the common dance hall there are common themes of human and natural beauty, mastery of the arts and social graces and the celebration of the human experience, male gallantry and feminine grace being celebrated in equal parts and delicate balance, especially in dance.
The mutuality of joy in the act of sex is a softly stated theme running through the whole of it. (At least in more civilized contexts).
Another theme being the fascination of the western male with the, from his point of view, the mysteries of feminine sensibility, as something to be prized and celebrated -- something closely linked in the western imagination with the celebration of beauty and a desire to explore and discover the mysteries of life in general.
There is nothing comparable in the mohammedan zone.
By contrast, art, society and sex are strictly, even brutally separated and restricted.
I think that for the mohammedan preachers, FGM is perfectly harmonious with their contempt for women, their minds and point of view on one hand, and their draconian attitude toward humanity and the aesthetic experience of life on the other -- their opposition to the appreciation of human beauty in any context, especially fashion and social display, and the restrictions on the arts, painting, portraiture, sculpture, dancing etc ...
It's a kill two birds with one stone deal for them.
joeblough
Some backup for your point about Western civilisation and its attitude toward female desire, by commending readers to Kieslowski's Three Colours trilogy, the central work, 'White'.
The climax of the film is...climax.
I note that throughout Kieslowski's final films, the complete fadeout of the cinematic image happens periodically. Usually it is a 'fade to darkness' (which of course, in a cinema, where the sole source of light is the screen, means that the audience suddenly finds itself in total darkness with nothing to look at). Kieslowski removes the image while allowing the soundtrack to continue. His films deserve to be meditated upon in light of Jacques Ellul's fascinating book, 'The Humiliation of the Word'.
But on one memorable occasion Kieslowski employs not 'fade to blue/ black' but 'whiteout!' In 'White', the WOMAN'S pleasure is represented by the entire screen going blank in a flash of white, causing a cinema full of people to blink in that sudden blaze like astonished owls.
Kieslowski's 'Red' proves your point splendidly, too - the fashion parade scene.
Other film sequences that your posting called to my mind, are the dance scene in the barn in Peter Weir's 'Witness', to the song 'what a wonderful world it would be'; and the extended dance sequence, the first occasion on which Mr Darcy and Elizabeth dance together, in the most recent BBC TV rendition of Jane Austen's 'Pride and Prejudice' (the version with Colin Firth as Mr Darcy).
Both of these extended scenes shimmer with exquisite, because exquisitely restrained, eroticism.
Or, if one enjoys allegory, the 'Riding the Hippogriff' sequence in the film version of 'Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban' - the Hippogriff being, allegorically or metaphorically, a wonderful symbol of the union of earthly passion/ energy/ eros [the horse] with spiritual insight [the eagle], producing a creature that is dangerous unless approached and handled with proper courtesy. (So humble Harry rides it safely, but the arrogant Malfoy gets mauled; and it obeys Hagrid, who represents Charity). John Williams' score for this scene shows clearly that he sensed its spiritual dimensions. It shows us what theologian David Bentley Hart, in 'The Beauty of the Infinite', referred to as 'the flight of desire'. It is no accident Harry is a Seeker.
In music, I recommend the opening adagio from Bach's Wedding Cantata No BWV 202.
Or - if you can track it down - Algerian Jewish composer Jacques Lasry's setting of portions of the original Hebrew text of the Song of Solomon, 'Cantique de Cantiques: Cantate Hebraique', sung by the rich voice of Moldavian Jewish contralto Sarah Gorby, and the shining tenor of an unnamed (Jewish) man. Recorded in Paris in the 1950s, it unites Ashkenazi and Mizrahi in a post-Shoah re-affirmation of life and longing that draws your heart right out of your body. It opens with the woman singing alone; then the man's voice comes in to join her and it's like the sun coming up. One must remember that the Lovers in the Song of Solomon are, for traditional exegetes, no less than YHWH and Israel His Beloved.
No Muslim could EVER have written the Vita Nuova or the Divina Commedia; or, for that matter, 'Much Ado About Nothing' and 'As You Like It', with the witty sparring between the lovers.
In other great Kafir civilisations, too, the erotic and the feminine are celebrated (think of the Indian - Hindu or Sikh? - sensibility in 'Monsoon Wedding', or the Chinese in 'Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon' and 'Eat Drink Man Woman').
But Islam...its refusal to challenge the cruelty of FGM, its tacit acceptance of that horrible custom in many regions of the Islamosphere, is of a piece, as you say, with its general attitude toward woman, and its rejection of music, art, beauty, laughter, playfulness, and joy.
Ayatollah Khomeini, that terrible killjoy and killer, DID say: "There is no fun in Islam".
"Should coptic Christians from Ethiopia be banned from Europe?"
Posted by: istanbulnotconstantinople
Did I say anything about banning all Muslims from Europe? No, what I said is that Europe should not let in people who practice FGM and intend to pass on the "custom" to their daughters. I don't give a damn what religion they are.
You demand to know why Christianity in Africa hasn't wiped out FGM. Well, as it happens, FGM is rare in sub-Saharan Africa, which is mostly non-Muslim, and largely Christian. Maybe CHristianity had nothing to do with that, but why should it be responsible for wiping out a practice in lands dominated by Islam? Shouldn't the onus be on the leaders of Islam, who turn a blind eye to it at best? Cross the Sahara, to where it's almost 100 percent Muslim, and suddenly you're in a place where it's rampant. You're saying that's just coincidence?
The same question you ask of Christianity could be asked, probably with a lot more legitimacy, of Islam. Can you explain why it is that only countries with a Muslim majority have such high rates of FGM? As I said before, Islam may not have invented FGM, but it's safe to say it doesn't have a whole lot of problems with it, either.
My comment about disliking in particular the way Muslims practice male circumsion was in reference to the fact that, unlike Jewish boys who are always circumcised as newborns, Muslim boys are older when it's performed, and it's often performed publically. I think both those factors make it more cruel and more traumatic. But that's debatable.
As for your comments about the "disgusting" ways some Orthodox Jews practice male circumcision, have you ever watched a video of FGM being performed? Now that's disgusting. But maybe as a Muslim male you consider it haram to look at a girl's private parts, which is why you get so annoyed when people insist on talking about them and women's right to actually keep them.
IF Coptic Christians in Egypt, or Ethiopian Christians in Ethiopia, practise FGM, I doubt that they will continue doing so for very long.
Why? Because the church universal - which nowhere else in the world permits any such custom - has resumed contact with them. For centuries they were trapped within a sea of Islam: the Copts as dhimmis, the Ethiopians besieged. They had little or no way of knowing what other Christians did or didn't do. They didn't know that all the other Christians in the world didn't do FGM.
But now they have much greater contact with the other churches. They have contact with Christian doctors, nurses and midwives. Maybe 100 years ago people were more reticent, and either didn't know, or didn't ask. But today there is greater openness. Christian doctors from Asia and the West are horrified by this practice, and condemn it, on medical grounds.
Furthermore, as the Bible is translated into the mother tongues, and more African Christians learn to read, or listen to the scripture on radio and recordings, they learn that the Bible does NOT teach FGM (even male circumcision is not required, for Gentiles). They learn that a woman's virtue comes from within, from God's Holy Spirit dwelling in her and enabling her to exercise self-control. Chastity is a spiritual quality, a choice, not something that can be enforced by a cruel physical mutilation.
Just as Christian missionaries in China campaigned against the breaking and binding of little girls' feet to make them fashionably tiny, so Christians - among Christians - in Egypt and Ethiopia, and in Kenya also, are, I am sure, campaigning against FGM.
I would bet good money that, although some northern/ northeast African Christians may practice FGM at present, they will stop doing it a whole lot sooner than their Muslim neighbours will.
istanbulnotconstantinople, give it up, because you have lost this debate by a mile. Remember where you are; this is not just any website on jihad, and we are not your typical ignorant Infidels who are immediately silenced by your dazzling taqiyya. We are educated on the subject, and we know exactly where to look for information that you and other Muslim apologists would prefer to keep hidden away from our prying eyes. And you know what else? We have a voice, and little by little, day by day, we are educating friends, co-workers, family members, visitors to our blogs, strangers on the internet, anyone who will listen, about the factual dangers that Islam presents to all non-Muslims on the planet.
Posted by: JenBee at June 8, 2008 12:22 PM
Brava JenBee! You are right!