A real shock horror, totally unexpected, out-of-left-field Friend-and-Ally Update: "US think tank: Pakistan helped Taliban insurgents," by Jason Straziuso for Associated Press, June 9 (thanks to Block Ness):
KABUL, Afghanistan (AP) - Pakistani intelligence agents and paramilitary forces have helped train Taliban insurgents and have given them information about American troop movements in Afghanistan, said a report published Monday by a U.S. think tank.The study by the RAND Corp. also warned that the U.S. will face "crippling, long-term consequences" in Afghanistan if Taliban sanctuaries in Pakistan are not eliminated.
Uh, yeah.
It echoes recent statements by American generals, who have increased their warnings that militant safe havens in Pakistan are threatening efforts in Afghanistan. The study was funded by the U.S. Defense Department."Every successful insurgency in Afghanistan since 1979 enjoyed safe haven in neighboring countries, and the current insurgency is no different," said the report's author, Seth Jones. "Right now, the Taliban and other groups are getting help from individuals within Pakistan's government, and until that ends, the region's long-term security is in jeopardy."
Pakistan's top military spokesman rejected the findings....
No sir, no jihadists here!
I'm shocked, shocked, to find the same people who created the Taliban and put it in power are helping it now!
Is nothing sacred?
But of course, this was just a "rebellious" group of soldiers and agents who did this. The remainder of the Pakistani army is on our side.
Sheesh! I thought we had a problem!
There are 57 Islamic states, when is the U.S. going to realize that Islamic terrorist and the Taliban are 'State Sponsored'?
I am sure that our U.S. State Department is still sending checks to Pakistan as quickly as they can write the check. We are funding, aiding, and educating our own enemy.
Pakistan's top military spokesman rejected the findings....JW:
Its amazes me that these bunch of clowns are 'managing' Nuclear weapons. If we stop our $billions a year support they will sell the Nukes to Iran in a heartbeat. They have no integrity. Pakistan is a biggest terrorists swamp on Earth, supported by their Government with our tax dollars.
the U.S. will face "crippling, long-term consequences" in Afghanistan if Taliban sanctuaries in Pakistan are not eliminated.
-- from a Rand study
No it won't. Any more that it faces "crippling, long-term consequences" if it doesn't wipe out the regimes, the countries, of Saudi Arabia or Iran and Pakistan itself.
This is the kind of solemn conclusion, based on all kinds of unchallenged data, or data about which all kinds of portentous conclusions are portentously drawn, and by people at the Rand Corporation! who have been studying "terrorism" for decades! and who are deeply-versed in the geopolitics of...well, of "terrorism."
It is a perfectly manageable problem, if the American government, in collaboration with other Infidel governments -- including the members of NATO, Israel, Australia, India, Thailand, and a few others, decides it is no longer going to try to create wonderful or even semi-acceptable societies in Muslim lands, but rather, it is going to do nothing to help them, but to keep constantly on edge, and make maximum use of every conceivable point of entry, point of purchase, including the ethnic and sectarian rivalries that, by the way, Afghanistan as well as Iraq offers up in such delightful profusion.
Don't build roads that the Taliban can use. Don't build schools that are burned down, unless you are prepared to deal with the ideology that pushes devout Muslims in Afghanistan to burn down those schools. If you cannot get at the "root cause" -- Islam -- then you are wasting your money, and your time.
But you can use the northern tribes against the southern ones. You can use the mutual hostilities between Sunni Pashtun and Shi'a Hazara. You can use the similar dislike of the Uzbeks and Tadzhiks for the Pashtun (Pashto) and supply weaponry, and money upon occasion, to keep everyone off-balance. And all kinds of things can be done -- an end to Infidel aid, an end to Infidel trade -- to bring Pakistan to its zamindar-and-generals knees.
Where there's a will....
But spare us those solemn studies that are all based on the idea that we, the Infidels, cannot allow ourselves to exploit the obvious weaknesses of the Camp of Islam, we cannot allow ourselves to allow them to continue to be at each other's throats till kingdom come.
Of course we can.
Now that's some real fine thinkin' done by those think-tankers.
Why in another 7 years - they might even figure out what exactly it is that the West is faced with (or would that kinda thinkin' now be considered "thought crimes" according to DHS, State Department, US Government, UN, EU, "progressives", academae, dhimmis in general, etc.).
India had a problem with muslims and after their muslim civil wars we had a separation of land that is called Pakistan.
We are dealing with radicals no matter how moderate the muslim is. Terrorist fighting with a weapon, wallet, or womb.
But, I thought Pak was our ally! (sarc on)
No, not all of Pak--just Naseem.
Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are TWO of the ONLY THREE countries that recognized terrorist regime of Taliban. Bush's phony "war-on-terror" is consistent with "war is deceit", except the deciever decieved HIS OWN by masking the enemy as friends, TO COVER HIS TREASON. i.e. Bush used the Islamic strategy of "war is deceit" against USofA, of which, he is the president/commander-in-chief.
Only fools were fooled by Bush's phony "war-on-terror" and his terrorist "allies".
before you blame bush for all things bad, might l add that clinton and his dems would rather fight the islamists in courts with lawyers, and fund the ACLU to go against the Amer. people. the only treason l see with this war, is that they handcuffed the military with stupid rules of going after the enemy, such as you cannot kill the taliban while they were attending the funerals of their terrorists comrades.
Sooner or later the news about the treachery of the pak will come in loud and clear, and the gov't can stop sending any money to the pak, let them get it from the sauds.
Let's just stop calling this a war on terror and call it for what it is, World War Three. It will end only when the last forty thousand surviving Muslims give up. Their surrender will be accepted by the last 2,000,000 surviving non-Muslims. Get my drift?
From the beginning to the end of Hugh's post:
Ain't he right?
Simple as that.
And what reason have we given Pakistan to stop this? None. The Bush doctrine was mere rhetoric, and uttered while he said 'Islam means peace', which made it obselete as well. It's been business as usual even after 9/11 and whenever I hear people praise Bush for at least doing SOMETHING, I always think, That's his Job. Besides all of the other no go areas our government goes to in our lives, their single greatest job is to defend this country. If they can't do that, they're worthless. Bush's decision to be for Islam and for America has hurt our response to Jihad terribly. And his maintaining Washington's corrupt, even treasonous freindship with our enemies, the Sowdies, has only made matters worse.
OF COURSE the Pakistani Muslims have been helping the Taliban elude the Kafir.
The loyalty of Muslim [person or entity] A to Muslim [person or entity] B overrides any relationship or spurious agreeement that Muslim [person or entity] A may temporarily have with any Kafir [person or entity] who has a quarrel with Muslim B.
I've posted this plenty of times before, but I'll just post it again, for anyone new to this site:
Ishaq:231 - “Muslims are one ummah (community) to the exclusion of all men. Believers are friends of one another to the exclusion of all outsiders.”
However, in the present mess in Pakistan, the extra twist is that the Pakistani government gets paid lots of money by the foolish Infidels, for chasing (i.e. PRETENDING to chase) Taliban. They don't actually CATCH anyone worth catching, because...they have no intention of catching them. Bin Laden and A Q Khan are perfectly safe.
It's the classic Muslim goodcop/ badcop ploy.
Plausible deniability. One-two punches. We think there is a 'good' Islam we can deal with and a 'bad' that we can't, and that we can use the 'good' against the 'bad'...this allows them to play us for suckers.
As 'moderate' Pakistani Government to 'extremist' Taliban, so 'moderate' Fatah to 'extremist' Hamas...and, right here in the Infidel lands, the 'moderates' and the 'extremists'. The 'extremists' provide the lever; they are the implicit threat.
Pay us, say the 'moderate' Muslim regimes, or the 'moderate' Muslim factions, or the 'moderate' Muslim 'community' in the UK or Australia or India or wherever; sponsor *our* mosque, let us build our school, change your foreign policy - or, oh dear, oh noes, 'bad things will happen'.
Let's stop playing this stupid game.
No money to Pakistan, none whatsoever. Nothing to Afghanistan, either.
Instead, how about the USA and Australia and everyone else gets right out of the swamp of murderous cannibal crocodiles that is Afghanistan, and Pakistan - and we redirect ALL the money, and military training, and economic aid, and so on, currently being wasted in those hellholes, to...India?
Then our soldiers, side by side with Gurkhas and the Hindu Indian army, working with people we can trust and understand, have fun helping India squash the jihad that is being waged against it in Jammu and Kashmir; we help them boot out every last Muslim; we help them resettle, in pacified Muslim-free Kashmir, all those Hindu and Christian and Buddhist Indians who were driven out of their own beautiful homeland by Muslim violence; we help them fortify their border with Pakistan and their border with Bangladesh and help them remove all the illegal Muslim invaders who have been imitating the hegira. We give them carefully targeted economic aid to strengthen civil society - making sure it benefits the NON-MUSLIMS within India.
Now THAT would be worth doing.
dumbledoresarmy:
Good idea, unfortunately apologist and appeasers seem to be in charge and that these facts seem to elude them. Pakistan has always been a nation that has ever since its creation has continued the Jihad that has been continuing for the last 1400 years. It is the longest running declaration of war against all non Muslims and the longest running war in human history. I think people are being fooled to think Islamic nations will keep their word and treaties with infidels...the fact is they will never! They are not the wests allies never have been and never will be. All the Ummah countries will never be the allies of the west or any other infidel country. It is that simple. Every behavior by the Ummah is based on Islam. War is deceit. Deceive the United States and get money hey that is what MoHAMtheMUD did robbing and lying and killing. As one Indian analyst said that if the US had bombed Pakistan back to the stone age it would be one less problem for the world. I mean really all the terrorist are getting their training in this country. The British Muslims got their training in this country. This is and will be a very dangerous country.
The Pakistani secret service built the Taliban!
This is widely acknowledged in Pakistan.
Mohammedans do not respect "borders".
We should not respect them either if they prevent us from destroying the enemy.
What would Pakistan do if we followed the Taliban into Pakistan and wiped them out?
Complain?
I think we're strong enough to handle that.
Do the job right, and stop the excuses.
Now why would Pakistan jihadist's, some wearing army uniforms, want to help the Taliban jihadi's?
It's because they are all brothers in Allah, Mohammad and the Quran, and in fact are not two separate groups of jihadi's but one group.
Maybe some tribal differences but that's about it.
Islam has no borders...Besides the names of the countries they live in, there is little difference between a Taliban muslim and a Pakistan tribal muslim...the real Islam is the Ummah, and it is wherever one or more muslim's is present.
Weren't all the right wing patriots and hawks slamming Obama over his idea of attacking Taliban sanctuaries in Pakistan? But he's a liberal so his idea is bad cause we all know that our Pakistani brothers are comrades in arms against those Terrorists evil doers.
Well, MorrisMinor, it probably did not help Obama to talk about bombing in Pakistan, and a friendly sit down and fireside chat with leading muslims, in the same breath. He just confused everyone. Especially muslims. Was he planning a face to face, group hug with Islamic leaders, before he bombed Pakistan or after...That's what Islamic inquiring minds want to know, and a few infidels as well...
For some strange reason, G Bush, the chief crusader and muslim killer, gets group hugs from rich muslims, and Imams on a regular basis. It's almost like they can't keep their hands, or lips off each other.
I would hope Barack would not kiss any muslims, but if they kissed Bush, they will kiss anyone...Once kissed, the infidel is owned...Obama beware, a muslim with puckered lips is up to no good...
Pakistan, home of the Madrasses school, teaching the next group of Taliban fighters, unless they are wiped out.
Madrasses school here in Minnesota, what are they preaching over there? Or are they teaching these kids to fight against the West, so they can strike us from within our country? With Funds from Saudi Arabia.
Look at the U.K. where they are training 12 year old kids to become a Marter.
9/11 terrorist, from Saudi Arabia.
Mosques being build around the world, with funds from Saudi Arabia,
Madrasses schools being build in the West, funds from Saudi Arabia.
Taliban, funds from Saudi Arabia ?
Bin Laden from Saudi Arabia, but his citizenship taken away,or is Bin Laden still getting money from his rich family? Blood is ticker than water.
Universities here in the States, with all those students from Saudi Arabia, getting big bucks from Saudi Arabia. Their knowledge, what they have gotten here and than used against us.
No sir, no jihadists here!
Roberto, we are NOT SUPPOSED to use THAT WORD. They are "Muslim extremists". Muslim moderates told us not to say (that word) because it might turn "extremists" into (those people).
Most people in India already know that the Taliban is the armed wing of the Pakistani ISI. Heck, I expect every NATO trooper in Afghanistan also knows this by now. If the Pakistanis have become so blatant that even top US personnel have started complaining, then the Pakis must be feeling mighty confident of themselves. They've even gone to the extent of threatening various European countries with violence if they don't stop "hurting Muslim sentiments". Said sentiments being too easily hurt.
The West need not attack them. Just don't give them dollars. Even the Saudis are a bit chary of giving funds to the notoriously corrupt Paki establishment, notwithstanding that misappropriation of funds is legitimate Islamic activity (the Prophet has set the Hadis on this by taking first pick on all goodies).
The ostrich-like response to the Paki support to the Taliban will have serious consequences. The lame-duck US administration is at the fag-end of its term and the new candidates for President don't inspire much confidence. So the Pakis think they have the US over a barrel. The US can dispel this notion that it is some sort of First World Sultanate. Rather that it is a democracy with well laid out policies and chains of command. So just shut off the dollars. THAT will hurt them something terrible.
And how much money did the State Department send to Pakistan?
Compare the economies of India and Pakistan. Compare the standard of living. Compare the cultures. Compare the political systems.
Islam, destroying civilizations for 1400 years.
I have a number of beautiful Muslim friends. And I tell them about The Redeemer - The Only One that can give them truth and life.
To worship Mohammad is to Reject The Saviour!
To Worship Allah is to worship The Antichrist! He that is the Prince of the Power of the Air!
The Islamic path is the path to death and destruction and Eternal separation from God!
Find The Saviour and you shall have Eternal life.
Jesus Christ IS LORD!!
from post above: I have a number of beautiful Muslim friends. And I tell them about The Redeemer - The Only One that can give them truth and life.
To worship Mohammad is to Reject The Saviour!
You tell muslims that? And what is their response? Worshipping Mohammad is idolatry, accepting Jesus as Savior, is shirk and or/apostasy.
Are you sure they are your friends? Muslims are forbidden to take Jews and Christians as friends.
'Acting' friendly, is not friendship, it is acting. And what is 'beautiful' about these muslims?
Telling muslims of the Redeemer, could get you killed in some neighborhoods...Yet if you feel safe telling them these things please continue, but be aware that too much of it could lead to...complications...
Thankyou duh_swami
Yes, Believe me, these Muslims are my friends - beautiful people that have showed me that not all (and by any means) Muslims are bad people - God created each and everyone of us In His Image - to Server and Worship Him - these are truly lovely people. Yes, in Mohammad's site - they are not true Mulims - but they are people that need the Lord - and that is to whom I am ministering. But that aside - these people DO take Christians and Jews as their friends - NOT ALL follow the crazy views of Mohammad - but these are the people who have more of a chance of finding Jesus as Their Lord!!
God Bless you for your thoughts my friend. But there is but ONE way to our God - through Jesus Christ - He that gave his life that we might be set free!! There is NO OTHER WAY.
Praise God!
Are we surprised by this astounding discovery by the Rand Corp? I am not surprised at all! This is classic display of Muslim "taqiya". Musharraf and his gang made the Americans an offer they could not refuse. 9/11 was a God-sent to an almost bankrupt Pukistan. Musharraf argued: give us your billions or else the Taliban will take hold in Pakistan. Bush fell for it, they got their billions, and merrily continued to nourish the Taliban. Despite my great admiration for the American people, I must say that your State Department is full of idiots and that includes successive Secretaries of State. As stated by others in this forum, the right thing to do would have been to help Indians crush the Islamic terrorists first in Kashmir and then together in Pukistan and Afghanistan. Even a better solution would have been to bomb Pukistan back to stone ages and strike terror in the hearts of Jihadists. Right after 9/11 India had even offered to collaborate militarily with US. Instead, US once again chose to back the wrong horse and handed out billions to a deceptive Pukistan. I can say with confidence that a US/India/Israel axis is the only solution to wipe out Islamic terrorism. No amount of dialogue or money will buy us peace with Muslims.
It's funny how the Americans seem to think they're being clever here, when India has been saying the same thing for the past 60 years.
They did it in 1993 with the Mumbai bombings and "conveniantely" lost a recorder, the crucial evidence in the investigation.
When America comes out of its Cold War mindset, then America and India can talk.
Blue
Mr Spencer, it's a real shame you couldn't read this International Crisis Group report from 2002. It would have told you all you need to know:
http://www.crisisgroup.org/home/index.cfm?id=1627&l=1
"...the military's confrontation with its former religious allies is likely, at best, a short-term response compelled by circumstances and foreign pressure. It is doubtful whether the military government has the intent or the will to set Pakistani society on a sustainable course that would lead to political pluralism and religious tolerance. On a key test – reform of madrasas, Pakistani religious schools that breed extremism of many hues – the military government thus far has acted weakly."
But I suppose ICG is too "liberal" for your tastes. You and Hugh had to keep backing Musharraf as a Pakistani Attaturk who was "secular" and would "check the radical population". Are you finally ready to start writing more favorably about the PPP? Or maybe even about Obama who, a year ago pointed out just this, that Pakistan had not fought terror; proclaimed that "If they do not take action, we will!"; and was universally denounced for "destabilizing" our wonderful "ally" Musharraf? I doubt it.
Please let me know if you've updated your position, and if not why not, because I honestly can not see how you can hold by your previous opinions after we have learned this for certain.
Be well.
When America comes out of its Cold War mindset, then America and India can talk.
Boys! stop whining... How about voting a government in Delhi with balls next time eh? Why do you suppose US or UK should essentially fight your war. Why do you suppose we would turn against Pakistan when your own bleeding Prime Minister calls Pakistan a victim of terrorism too? When your own home minister says that Saudi funded madarssas are doing a national service! Where even those supposed Hindu jingoists of BJP bend over backwards for Muslim votes. Where its people are basically treated like cannon fodder by its own government.
If India were a normal democratic country, Arun Jaitley would be projected by the BJP as the next prime minister, but instead we have L.K Advani pitted against the Italian and her sorry sycophants, political fossils from the days of India's costly affair with Nehruvian Socialism.
So yeah, when India actually has a government with spine, then we can talk.
help them resettle, in pacified Muslim-free Kashmir
@dumbledoresarmy: Given that India has a bizarre law called article 370 which prohibits non-ethnic Kashmiris from owning land in J&K, result being Muslims going up from 75% in 1950, to 90% in 1987 to 99% now after the ethnic cleansing from the Kashmir valley of the Kashmiri Pundits, Jammu still manages a 60% Hindu majority though, so yeah its not happening.
"But there is but ONE way to our God - through Jesus Christ - He that gave his life that we might be set free!! There is NO OTHER WAY."
Amen.
Who knew?
"But there is but ONE way to our God - through Jesus Christ - He that gave his life that we might be set free!! There is NO OTHER WAY."
Thanks Chump,
Save your jesus babble for people that care!