Certainly, some will protest that this woman has been denied citizenship on the grounds of her beliefs. That doesn't quite hold water, however, when one considers how many French citizens and permanent residents observe the five pillars of Islam (or the equivalent Shi'ite obligations), and the number among them who hold onto beliefs and practices incompatible with democracy, secularism, and human rights.
What is at issue here is this woman's existence as a sort of permanent minor: If her male relatives wanted her to pursue French citizenship, she would obey and do so; if her male relatives wanted her to pursue citizenship in Sealand, she would obey and do so. There are many legitimate questions concerning her ability to undertake the rights and responsibilities that French citizenship entails.
"Muslim woman deemed too submissive to be French," by Estelle Shirbon for Reuters, July 11:
PARIS (Reuters) - France has denied citizenship to a veiled Moroccan woman on the grounds that her "radical" practice of Islam is incompatible with basic French values such as equality of the sexes, a legal ruling showed on Friday.
The case will reignite debate about how to reconcile freedom of religion, which is guaranteed by the French constitution, and other fundamental rights, which many in France feel are being challenged by the way of life of some Muslims.
Le Monde newspaper said it was the first time a Muslim applicant had been rejected for reasons to do with personal religious practice.
"She has adopted a radical practice of her religion, incompatible with essential values of the French community, particularly the principle of equality of the sexes," said a ruling by the Council of State handed down last month and sent to Reuters on Friday to confirm a report in Le Monde.
The Council of State is a judicial body which has final say on disputes between individuals and the public administration.
Married to a French national, the woman arrived in France in 2000, speaks good French and has three children born in France.
She wears a black burqa that covers all her body except her eyes, which are visible through a narrow slit, and lives in "total submission" to her husband and male relatives, according to reports by social services. Le Monde said the woman is 32.
The woman's application for French nationality was rejected in 2005 on grounds of "insufficient assimilation". She appealed to the Council of State, which last month approved the rejection. [...]
The ruling comes weeks after a heated debate over whether traditional Muslim views were creeping into French law, prompted by a court annulment of the marriage of two Muslims because the husband said the wife was not a virgin as she had claimed to be.
In the case of the Moroccan woman, Le Monde suggested the Council of State had gone to the opposite extreme by rejecting the woman's beliefs and way of life rather than accommodating them.
"Is a burqa incompatible with French nationality?" the newspaper asked.
The legal expert who provided a formal report on the case to the Council of State wrote that the woman's interviews with social services revealed that "she lives almost as a recluse, isolated from French society," Le Monde reported.
"She has no idea about the secular state or the right to vote. She lives in total submission to her male relatives. She seems to find this normal and the idea of challenging it has never crossed her mind," Emmanuelle Prada-Bordenave wrote.
Le Monde quoted Daniele Lochak, a law professor not involved in the case, as saying it was bizarre to consider that excessive submission to men was a reason not to grant citizenship.
"If you follow that to its logical conclusion, it means that women whose partners beat them are also not worthy of being French," Lochak said.
An insult to survivors of domestic violence. Lochak has not engaged the particulars of the case, and arrives at a ridiculous conclusion from a ridiculous generalization.
A faint, but visible flicker of candlelight at the end of a ten mile long tunnel? A hope that the French are beginning to see the threat and take action?
Then this nonsense:
My dear Daniele, it's called Islam. Better start reading the papers (nightly rampages by the zombies) and read some books other than your stupid law books: You've got a far bigger problem on your hands!
Good grief!
"The case will reignite debate about how to reconcile freedom of religion, which is guaranteed by the French constitution, and other fundamental rights, which many in France feel are being challenged by the way of life of some Muslims"
- It doesn't make sense to me why we guarantee freedom of religion to religions which are inherently violent.
Surely we should only be guaranteeing freedom of religion to religions which are inherently peaceful, like Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, Sikhism, etc.
Without 'freedom of religion' holding us back, the West could easily deport Muslim immigrants or ban Islam nationwide, on the basis that Islam is inherently violent and that Muslims are too much of a risk, due to their religious beliefs.
With 1 in 3 babies born in France a muslim, this is just re-arranging one deckchair on the Titanic.
She is a Muslim robot who if she votes will vote as part of a Muslim bloc. Mindless zombie
Check out Gurdjieff. She is as "asleep" as a human can get. And Islam is the most sleep inducing of all religions.
"which many in France feel are being challenged by the way of life of some Muslims."
Right. And Brigitte Bardot has been convicted 4 times of hate crimes on account of it. Why isn't THAT being covered by Reuters?
Denying citizenship is quite different than denying admission...
Celsius has it right. Demographics is destiny. Europe has had too many people for centuries. Other than short-term greed, there is no reason for mass immigration to Europe. It is not sustainable, and Muslim immigration is the worse for so many reasons it becomes a crime to approve it. It is a soul-deadened population without a will of its own, but only that of a dead man's, speaking through a brutal book as interpreted by megalomanical mullahs implementing self-serving laws against the humanity. In other words, nothing to do with God or progress.
http://www.bravenewsworld.blogspot.com
Wearing a burqua should be reason enough to deny citizenship. In fact, just being a muslim should be enough.
Interesting case, I’ll guess children that has no idea about the secular state or the right to vote and live in total dependence of their parents can be granted citizenship and probably likewise people that is mentally retarded in some way and cant manage their own affairs.
Ill guess that also France have legislation on these matters, a adult person of this statues can compulsory be placed under the protection or in the custody of someone else, if no proper relative can do it ill guess there is people that do this as a profession.
What is the difference in this case and the cases where some lunatic holds someone imprisoned for year or even decades. Why doesn’t the authorities move in and rescue her. Oh I did forget this is the culture and religion to imprison women, then it’s something that has to be respected.
the articles is so evasive on this matter e.g.
"She has adopted a radical practice of her religion, incompatible with essential values of the French community, particularly the principle of equality of the sexes,"
Have she adopted or have she been brainwashed into submission on the grounds of her sex since the day she was born.
”She seems to find this normal and the idea of challenging it has never crossed her mind.”
That people can be mentally moulded is no secret and of course if you are brainwashed from the day you is born you can be made to think that any absurdity is “normal”.
This case should raise some very important question about what can be done in the name of religious freedom, but it won’t. everyone that would have been able to raise the question in a proper manner in the public debate is deadly afraid to be branded islamophobes or xenophobes.
"Is a burqa incompatible with French nationality?" the newspaper asked.
It is incompatible with ANY nationality. Except one. Islam.
Islamic dress is a political statement from a political entity.
Would wearing a Nazi swastika be compatible with any nationality? No.
It is mentally bankrupt members of the intelligensia like Lochak that keep the floodgates open to the barbaric religion.
And you find the same type in the U.S. among liberals and feminists who see nothing wrong with allowing Wahhabis and their burkha clad females to immigrate here.
Though its rather pathetic how feminists will go apeshit over various churches refusal to ordain women as ministers but turn a blind eye to the horrific Koranic sanctioned brutality of women and tolerating that religion's foothold in this country.
- France has denied citizenship to a veiled Moroccan woman
hmm are they sure its a woman under there and not a guy with a high voice
Hopefully this signals one French retreat we can all get behind, er, so to speak, that is.
Viva la France!
"Though its rather pathetic how feminists will go apeshit over various churches refusal to ordain women as ministers but turn a blind eye to the horrific Koranic sanctioned brutality of women and tolerating that religion's foothold in this country."
Waltc - I'd like to say that is purely due to ignorance (reading the Qur'an is a real eye opener for any westerner) but if you actively teach some of us to despise their own culture.........
Does France have a naturalization program of any sort, or is it only a matter of application and acceptance to obtain French citizenship?
From the article, it sounds like an application process. If that's the case, maybe the government should consider an educational program with subsequent testing.
If the French government had a 'flunked' citizenship test to wave in the air, second guessing becomes irrelevant. It would keep only some of the riff-raff out of the country, but it would be a start.
A flicker of light indeed. But since we have a quote from a law professor seeming to welcome the end of equality of the sexes, let's go to the next question.
When will admittance to practice law in France, or anywhere else, include questions on the role of men and women in a society where the society strives for equal rights to each gender? And, not only in law, but in the security forces, teaching, and social services?
A society that cannot perscribes attitudes, whatever they are, is dead. Islam is mostly definately not dead, for it has the cultural confidence to press its views. Not so the West, sadly.
"France: Burqa-clad Muslim woman denied citizenship due to insufficient assimilation, male relatives' absolute control over her"
using that definition, France has a lot of citizenships granted that need revoking...
but, it is a start...wake up France!, the wolf is at your door.
This is outrageous. When a man comes to a new country he should be allowed to bring his women and cattle.
We need to have an anti-dhimmi, and dhimmi country of the year award.
France would be a good contender for the anti-dhimmi award.
We need to have an anti-dhimmi, and dhimmi country of the year award.
France would be a good contender for the anti-dhimmi award.
pashley1411; re the practice of Law...contempt of court has taken on a whole new meaning for me, here in Canada. The silence from Law Professors, Lawyers, Law Societies, et al on the the Human Rights Commissions' trampling of those principles that I assumed were sacred to the above legal practitioners, has shaken me to the core.
If me and thee want to preserve our way of life I'm afraid we can't look past the mirror...
"If you follow that to its logical conclusion, it means that women whose partners beat them are also not worthy of being French," Lochak said.
Modified this statement slightly to "whose partners follow a religion that prescribes beating their wives are not worth of being French," seems like a perfectly valid reason to deny or revoke citizenship to Muslim immigrants.
http://www.bravenewsworld.com
It is amzing....
Poeple are concerned about Sects .....
One is Scientology
Scientology calls itself, depending of the countries, as a religion, a philosophy or a science. In Germany, where it is forbidden, it's labeled a dangerous Sect....
A special security service in Germany is there to protect the constitution... observes the Sect now for many years.... But ISLAM goes as acceptable ?????????
While in Holland scientology is left alone, in neigbouring countries the cult is under siege.
In Belgium judicial authorities decided to sue the church. It is accused of being a criminal organization.....
And Islam ???????
Belgian authorities decided such organizations..Scientology: are A dangerous cult.
Yet ...... Islam .... which causes murder and mayhem galore...right in our very own midst... which I consider very dangerous ..... far more than Scientology (which I find also disgraceful for their brainwashing etc...)
is forbidden in many countries.....
But NOT Islam .... which after all is A DANGER to ALL and esp. A Western destruction
Which is a MANUAL to TERRORISM is appeased and called a Religion
Where is here the common sense ?????
Where is here the common sense ?????
Posted by: Gabrielle
A coward has common sense, but hardly uses it except to further his cowardice. Common sense is being hidden by the spineless cowards in Gov in every western country. How the west ends up with all these losers for leaders, at the same time, is a phenomena. One we can do without...
But this is what the French said they would do - while the law or measure was still in its proposal stage.
No one will automatically be given French citizenship - there is now a period of probation - a wait and see - and if that person doesn't assimilate or wish to show themselves French or a part of French society - then as with this case - even after a few years of living in the country - a person can be refused citizenship.
The only problem I see - is if the legal EU resident moved to Spain, Italy or the UK and then apply for residency for their spouse who was denied French citizenship?
Germany and Holland have also put in place measures to weed out incomers from the Islamic world - in particular - whom they think would not adjust well to living in Europe or the free society.
Why would Muslims complain for one - many openly call for an end to western society? Why come - and why fight to remain?
Cole says:
Why would Muslims complain for one - many openly call for an end to western society? Why come - and why fight to remain?
Simple Cole .... the so called MODERATE Muslim is supposed to take over our land by proxy ....
The Fighting Muslim .... is then more supported by the Moderate to take over the fight
So the final point .... hand in hand ALL ISLAM uses their way for the Take Over together