They did "exactly what you would do if you had a nuclear weapon on a Scud or a Shahab-3 or other missile, and you wanted to explode it over the United States."
"U.S. Intel: Iran Plans Nuclear Strike on U.S.," by Kenneth R. Timmerman for NewsMax, July 29 (thanks to all who sent this in):
Iran has carried out missile tests for what could be a plan for a nuclear strike on the United States, the head of a national security panel has warned.In testimony before the House Armed Services Committee and in remarks to a private conference on missile defense over the weekend hosted by the Claremont Institute, Dr. William Graham warned that the U.S. intelligence community “doesn’t have a story” to explain the recent Iranian tests.
One group of tests that troubled Graham, the former White House science adviser under President Ronald Reagan, were successful efforts to launch a Scud missile from a platform in the Caspian Sea.
“They’ve got [test] ranges in Iran which are more than long enough to handle Scud launches and even Shahab-3 launches,” Dr. Graham said. “Why would they be launching from the surface of the Caspian Sea? They obviously have not explained that to us.”
Another troubling group of tests involved Shahab-3 launches where the Iranians "detonated the warhead near apogee, not over the target area where the thing would eventually land, but at altitude,” Graham said. “Why would they do that?”
Graham chairs the Commission to Assess the Threat to the United States from Electromagnetic Pulse (EMP) Attack, a blue-ribbon panel established by Congress in 2001.
The commission examined the Iranian tests “and without too much effort connected the dots,” even though the U.S. intelligence community previously had failed to do so, Graham said.
“The only plausible explanation we can find is that the Iranians are figuring out how to launch a missile from a ship and get it up to altitude and then detonate it,” he said. “And that’s exactly what you would do if you had a nuclear weapon on a Scud or a Shahab-3 or other missile, and you wanted to explode it over the United States.”....
Hmmm. Sort of reminds me of the theory that TWA flight 800 was shot down by an Iranian missile launched from a submarine or boat lying off Long Island.
Oh, here we go...Anyone else feel like this is Gulf War II all over again?
They could also be looking to use a sea-bourne missile to attack Israel, no?
Maybe they're setting up for the old grenade-in-the-lake fishing technique.
Eschew Iranian sushi.
but Nancy Pelosi is trying to save the planet in the meantime...
The "Scud in a bucket" attack has been discussed by knowledgeable sources for the last several years. Exploding an EMP nuke at 300 miles altitude is what Iran tested. The bad news for us is that if they are ever successful at getting just one of these EMP nukes to go off over the U.S. we are back to the 1800's in our living arrangements for an extended period of time. Possibly years.
I don't wish to be upsetting or alarmist, but that is the way it is.
Spot on, Spot on.
Maybe it's time to kill the little monkey man? Oh Mahmoud, there's a package for you! Jam a JDAM where the sun doesn't sign.
لن استسلم
ABS
Folks, you have to see this. The heart of an artist...
http://www.militarytimes.com/hancock
My kids played with bigger fire crackers. Now this is fire power...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_OjZyQ6LGE&feature=related
basicly a rail gun has two rods either side of its barrel where a massive electrical charge is generated to cause a massive electro-magnetic field which drives a steel disk situated behind a projectile (depleted uranium round) at mach 7 and above up to a distance of up to 250miles &5 metres accuracy miles with an what makes these weapons so special is the safety aspect - you do not have to have an explosive round (the speed and density of the projectile does the damage.
For some reason, I ain't affraid of imadinnerjacket.
Later
Albert
It would seem to me that given the contiguity of the Muslims states, that they ought to worry about having their lights turned out as well. I'm sure we could get their oil wells up and running and pumping crude to our waiting tankers again in no time. I bet it wouldn't take that many high altitude nukes to simultaneously take out over fifty per cent of the Ummah if they want to play that game. We could turn quite a profit selling them food and selective replacement (non-military) equipment as well, not to mention the economic benefits of reduced price oil.
Neutron bombs would be the best for the middle east. Problem solved.
Noooooo....kidding! I could have told you the same thing three years ago and only charged $25 million for my services.
How much did this brilliant analysis set back the US taxpayer?
From article: “Why would they do that?”
EMP...Why else?
And if this ever comes to pass, will Condi (or whatever SOS) be saying that the warning signs were just "historic??" (PDB on planes hijacked being flown into buildings, August 2001)
Cornelius: Thanks so much for that link. What a fine woman she is. I would strongly urge all who post here to spend the less than six minutes the video runs watching it. I don't think it can be done without tears coming to one's eyes. It made me realize once again that America is far, far too good for the Islamic world. Nothing Islam has ever done compares to the greatness of America, especially respecting the brave and good young people who have given their lives so that freedom might have a chance to be enjoyed and relished by others. Everywhere people are free today, America had a hand in it. Not knowing this is the worst type of ignorance.
Wellington,
As I read your comments, I was reminded that no Muslim artist could ever perform such a similar feat for fallen comrades; Islam prohibits depictions of the human form.
An EMP sure will make our lives miserable. Look on the bright side. At least we will be miserable.
I would rather be miserable than a peace of Elemental Carbon.
Beautiful story. Thank you. I've lost the capacity to cry but if I could I would over this one.
Thanks again for the link.
The nabi detests iran as much or more than any of you but lets think. The scud does not have the ability to reach 300 miles in altitude. The iranians have not tested a nuclear warhead no less one which would fit on a scud. Therefore this was not a test of exploding an EMP nuke at 300 miles. Remember when the Norks tested their device and it was a dud? It's not so easy to make nukes like everyone thinks. And what are they gonna do? Sail up and fire one little nuke at the US? Now that would be true zeal for martyrdom! Remember, the terror nuke has no return address. This EMP attack gets easily pinned on iran and then they, the iranians, are toast. I, nabi ZK, nabific, wise, am sorry to say that this story did not pass the reasonable conspiracy test.
nabi ZK
Witness,
I know how you feel, the daily barrage of sociological evil emanating from the Muslim world does tend to induce a certain numbness. But I hope you can find it within someday soon to allow yourself a good cry.
My wife thinks I'm a caveman, belching, beer-drinking slob that I am, but even I have my moments.
I've seen the movie 'The Border' (early 80s, Jack Nicholson) about 20 times over the last two decades...and so help me God, every time I watch the climactic scene when Nicholson's character re-unites the Mexican woman with her baby, I bawl like a menopausal woman.
I can't believe I shared that...
Gen. Tommy Frank said that if we get hit by a nuke that Washington would have to declare marshal law.
Translation: Government gets to cram it down our throat.
Maybe that is why so few in Washington care about our security.
Don't worry spot on. If the iranians get a nuke they will be destroyed. They are probably going to be destroyed for even looking like they could get a nuke. Well that and also waging war against the US. Yeah they are doing that and it's not like nobody has noticed. Of course it goes without saying that I, nabi ZK, with my awesome clairvoyant powers, have noticed that iran has waged war against the US for some 30 years now. But probably lots of other people noticed this also. So they, like the iranians, could get destroyed any time now.
nabi ZK
noni kafir
Somehow I don't like a stalemate where the enemy wants to kill themself and get 72 virgins. But I hope that Ahmadinejad doesn't want to die. However, on the other hand that 12th Caliphate may sound good to him.
In any event, if Hezbollah did the job on us with a nuke, would Washington come to the conclusion that Iran did it? If you think so, than you have more faith in Washington than I.
I have little faith in Washington to do anything right especially if an EMP disrupts all communications and everything else.
it would have to be a ship unless they got a hold of a old juliot class ex soviet sub that could launch a early cruise missile
The altitude and accuracy for an EMP is not critical. That's why a scud is OK for the job. 300 miles would cover the entire U.S. and lower altitudes would have nominally less range.
Me thinks the nabi has rose colored glasses on today.
Scud can reach 150 miles up.
http://blog.wired.com/defense/2007/02/irans_new_space.html
Relative coverage versus height.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:EMP_areas.JPG
Relative coverage versus yield.
"However, the EMP at a fixed distance from a nuclear weapon does not depend directly on the yield but at most only increases as the square root of the yield (see illustration above). This means that although a 10 kt weapon has only 0.7% of the total energy release of the 1.4 Mt Starfish Prime test, the EMP will be at least 8% as powerful. Since the EMP depends on the prompt gamma ray output, which was only 0.1% of yield in Starfish Prime but can be 0.5% of yield in pure fission weapons of low yield, a 10 kt bomb can easily be 5 x 8% = 40% as powerful as the 1.4 Mt Starfish Prime at producing EMP[3]."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse
"They are probably going to be destroyed for even looking like they could get a nuke."
I think they should be destroyed for even looking like they could be thinking about being able to get a nuke. I.e. about 15 years ago.
Maybe I'm just old fashioned. If someone says they are planning to kill me or a friend and demonstrates how they plan to do it, I take them dead serious.
Iran needs to be bombed.
My humanitarian act of the day:
If you are in Iran and don't agree with the Mullahocracy and the Ape-man, especially if you are living over one of the underground enrichment facilities...
GET OUT OF IRAN, NOW!!!
This has been a public service announcement.
I don't consider this a threat unless they show that they have the weapon. The have not tested one yet. Spot on and CC, we are singing in the same choir. Spot wants them bombed. CC wants them bombed 15 years ago. And I wanted them nuked, yes literally, in 79 and never changed my opinion in all these years. Nuke them from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
nabi ZK
Much of our vital infrastructure has been EMP-shielded since the 1970's. All electronics that say "mil-spec" are for sure. Vital government systems have been since the '60's. All critical systems are mandated to be shielded.
Battlefield systems are hardened but the military uses mostly commercial channels for communications.
To think this is folly it is reality. Clive Cussler in his book 'THE BLACK WIND' has a North Korean try to launch a deadly missile off a platform. And they say that truth is stranger than fiction? I seriously think that they got this idea from reading his book.
One "little nuke" fired over the continent at the proper altitude is what the EMP issue is all about. It is intended to, and theoretically would, wipe out the country's ability to communicate. There would be no smoking hole..just 300 million people running around wringing their hands wondering what McCain would have done.
“and without too much effort connected the dots,”
At last. Someone is connecting the dots.
Posted by Spot on:
Gen. Tommy Frank said that if we get hit by a nuke that Washington would have to declare marshal law.
Translation: Government gets to cram it down our throat.
Maybe that is why so few in Washington care about our security.
Considering the ban on linking Islamic theology and terror after 9/11, just imagine how many words they'd try to ban after a nuclear attack.
Perhaps they should think about a different strategy, like say, killing the enemy.
In this scenario, if Iran wasn't melted down in short order, I wouldn't want to be a government official exposing himself to a pissed off American public. People will be remembering and reviewing much of our government's phantasmagorical happy horseshit about the venerable Religion of Peace. And since our infrastructure would be down for weeks if not months or years, politicians would be exposing themselves to the public.
One thing for certain, if things ever do degenerate to that point, and you see people going door to door confiscating weapons: shoot them. Then target whoever gave the order as quickly as possible. Better to die on your feet than live on your knees in a nationwide, nuclear New Orleans.
CGW, virtually none of the civilian infrastructure, which includes nearly everything used in day to day life, is EMP hardened. This includes your automobile, cell phone, internet, computers, television, radio, the banking system, and the power grid.
"Gen. Tommy Frank said that if we get hit by a nuke that Washington would have to declare marshal law."
-- from a posting above
Which raises another obvious question:
Matt Dillon, or Bob Dylan?
This is so damn scary. I guess we'll have to hide under our desks and pray.
Blue
"...virtually none of the civilian infrastructure, which includes nearly everything used in day to day life, is EMP hardened."
Which is why we should hit them first.
I have been warning about this for some time in my posts. Despite Ahmadinejad's non-stop threats to annihilate Israel, Iran's first target is the US. Israel has been ominously termed "a one-bomb country", meaning that it will take only one or a few nukes to Holocaust most or all Israelis. However, even a large nuclear attack will not destroy Israel's avenging capabilities. Not the mobile nuclear launchers in fortified bases deep under the Judean hills, that will roll out through secret tunnels. Not others in constant motion throughout the Negev desert. Not planes in deep underground shelters. Not the subs out in the ocean. Even if Iran takes Israel out, Israel will take the entire Muslim world with it. But the US is likely to capitulate.
The bad news for us is that if they are ever successful at getting just one of these EMP nukes to go off over the U.S. we are back to the 1800's in our living arrangements for an extended period of time. Possibly years.
Spot On,
That's nothing compared to what will happen to them if they ever do something so stupid. They won't even make it back to the 700s.
We'll outlive them and outlast them. The people with the knowledge will still be here. The world will just have to get along without us for a while. They can call on the Saudis for help with the next natural disaster. The Saudis have all the answers, don't they? Allah tells them everything.
The worst thing is I can hear the leftists in this country screaming that this is a Bush plot to avoid giving up power in January. They remain convinced that GWB's goal in life is to make himself a dictator. The martial law statement by Tommy Frank only feeds into that paranoia.
If we have martial law, can we start hanging for sedition?
After Barack gets in, he'll sit down for a powow with Mahmoud and smooth it all out. In return for Iran's cancellation of its nucear weapons program, we'll cancel our AIDS propagation program. How's that for a deal nobody can refuse?
Cornelius:
You're okay in my book; you have my respect. I raise my glass in a toast!
RalphInfidel:
I talked to someone who was "in the business" and he said that the banking and many of the computer info banks are shielded, as well as large parts of the power grid and utilities.
" the banking and many of the computer info banks are shielded, as well as large parts of the power grid and utilities."
"virtually none of the civilian infrastructure, which includes nearly everything used in day to day life, is EMP hardened. This includes your automobile, cell phone, ..., computers, television, radio"
Close enough. Nuke 'em, now.
OT
Obama made a speech to 'minority journalists'.
http://starbulletin.com/2008/07/28/news/story05.html
"I personally would want to see our tragic history, or the tragic elements of our history, acknowledged," the Democratic presidential hopeful said.
"I consistently believe that when it comes to whether it's Native Americans or African-American issues or reparations, the most important thing for the U.S. government to do is not just offer words, but offer deeds."
Deeds? As in money payments?
I wonder if he will pay himself reparations? Or pay them? Since his father wasn't a US citizen, would he be eligable? Or does he mean the 3/4 trillion in additional poverty funding to Africa?
I guess the blood of all the northern soldiers, and the southern soldiers, plus losing everthing, wasn't enough.
Borg,
The reparations issue - if it comes to fruition - will set race relations back decades, foster new resentments, and instead of correcting historical wrongs, will simply further the destructive fallout of failed welfare policies.
It's a loser all the way around, and if this represents the thinking of Barry Obama, then he's much further Left than I thought.
I've always felt, (even though my ancestors came here in the 1700s as indentured servants and owned NOBODY) that The Sin of American Slavery was "washed away" by the blood of the 620,000 men and women who died on both sides.
http://www.civilwarhome.com/casualties.htm
ABS
I've always felt, (even though my ancestors came here in the 1700s as indentured servants and owned NOBODY) that The Sin of American Slavery was "washed away" by the blood of the 620,000 men and women who died on both sides!
http://www.civilwarhome.com/casualties.htm
ABS
l think most iranians including the monkey man from theran does not realize is the scope of the US military fire power, until now it has been held back with the US military fighting in Iraq and Afganistan with both hands tied behind their backs, so not to make it so bad for those poor islamists,and that if and when the US military is allowed to losen its real strenght, iranians, syrians,sowdis,etc can kiss their behinds good bye. Muslims do not respect restraint, as its higly prized in the west to which upon the surprise of the islamists when the western military true power is unleased the islamists will weep all the way to allah.
From an excellent article on EMP weapons: (LINK: http://www.hillsdale.edu/news/imprimis/archive/issue.asp?year=2005&month=06 )If Osama bin Laden—or the dictators of North Korea or Iran—could destroy America as a twenty-first century society and superpower, would they be tempted to try? Given their track records and stated hostility to the United States, we have to operate on the assumption that they would. That assumption would be especially frightening if this destruction could be accomplished with a single attack involving just one relatively small-yield nuclear weapon—and if the nature of the attack would mean that its perpetrator might not be immediately or easily identified.
Unfortunately, such a scenario is not far-fetched. According to a report issued last summer by a blue-ribbon, Congressionally-mandated commission, a single specialized nuclear weapon delivered to an altitude of a few hundred miles over the United States by a ballistic missile would be “capable of causing catastrophe for the nation.” The source of such a cataclysm might be considered the ultimate “weapon of mass destruction” (WMD)—yet it is hardly ever mentioned in the litany of dangerous WMDs we face today. It is known as electromagnetic pulse (EMP).
Read it all... http://www.hillsdale.edu/news/imprimis/archive/issue.asp?year=2005&month=06
Conventional political theory doesn't work with Iran and the Mullahs. Conventional theory being - They won't attack because they have no realistic expectation of surviving.
If Iran can cause a global war, the Mahdi will appear. The Mahdi will win the war supernaturally, and establish the global Caliphate.
All Iran has to do is get the war started.
Posted by CGW:
I talked to someone who was "in the business" and he said that the banking and many of the computer info banks are shielded, as well as large parts of the power grid and utilities.
I’d like to think so, but I doubt any of those systems had EMP in mind when they were designed. And “designed” might be an overstatement for the power grid, as I think it has grown as more of a patchwork over time.
It’s hard to pin down exactly what would happen in a situation like that since it has so many variables. Here’s an interesting overview of a study done for congress in 2004.
Commission to Assess the Threat from High Altitude Electromagnetic Pulse (EMP): Overview
http://stop-emp.com/EMPGrahamHASCBrfg-7-22-04.pdf
More thoughts on EMP… as bad as it would be for the U.S., it would be far worse for Iranians. Particularly for Ahmadinejad, who would replace Saddam Hussein as the dumbest man in hell. Just imagine how pissed the Mahdi will be when he learns Armandhandjob went and got his well fused shut.
But seriously, how many people around the world would starve to death if the U.S. economy was brought to a standstill by EMP?
From Ralph's link:
Prevention--the highest priority is to prevent attack
•Shape global environment to reduce incentive for antagonists to create weapons; pursue intelligence, interdiction and deterrence to discourage EMP attack
•Suppress ability to create them by making it difficult and dangerous to try
•Counter creation and use of EMP weapons by threatening military and other violent response,
•Establish a coherent global force to intervene
"Shape global environment"? (Appeasement?)
"threatening military and other violent reponse"? (other? Chuck Norris?)
Does everybody feel safer now?
I've come across this EMP scenario before. It's disconcerting, to put it mildly. Perhaps it would be helpful to indicate to Iran and many other Muslim nations, through a Swiss intermediary (or some such channel) that should the US be struck in this manner (or a like manner) that Mecca, Medina, Qom and other Muslim holy cities would be vaporized. After all, we're in a war to the death, aren't we?
But seriously, how many people around the world would starve to death if the U.S. economy was brought to a standstill by EMP?...
Ok. How long did they say the lights were off in Honolulu? A few hours? Days? Months? Years?
nabi ZK
The nabi would be curious to know if fried equipment needed to be replaced as opposed to merely tripping breakers and then auto reset. Was the outage for only moments? Enquiring minds want to know.
nabi ZK
About 1500 kilometers (930 statute miles) away in Hawaii, the electromagnetic pulse (EMP) created by the explosion was felt as three hundred street lights failed, television sets and radios malfunctioned, burglar alarms went off and power lines fused. On Kauai, EMP shut down telephone calls to the other islands by burning out the equipment used in a microwave link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starfish_Prime
The electromagnetic pulse (EMP) from this test sent power line surges throughout Oahu, knocking out street lighting, blowing fuzes and circuit breakers, and triggering burglar alarms.
http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Usa/Tests/Dominic.html
Starfish Prime was conducted in 1962. Transistors were nowhere to be found at the time. Only vacuum tubes in electronic systems. Transistors and IC's are millions of times more sensitive to EMP than vacuum tubes.
Now, everything is is made with IC's. And it gets worse. The power grid is not in anyway protected as is nothing else. Only a faraday shield all around the system can protect. Anything with a wire, particularily a long wire such as a power line gets burned. Over 4000 amps can develop. Circuit breakers will not save anything.
We used conventional EMP's on Sadam. They were the first bombs dropped. They killed his communications systems.
We have no defense for this. Our politicians do not want to even talk about. Our ABM system is the only hope for defense. EMP is one of the main reasons why we have an ABM system.
As Spot on said, Hawaii was in 1962. Don't you think we've made progress since then?
The government report was from 2004. Progress has been made since then. Don't think the government hasn't been working on this.
Our (hardened) sub systems can still take out Iran and the entire Arabian peninsula afterward.
And Israel has more shielded systems than we do.
The worst thing is I can hear the leftists in this country screaming that this is a Bush plot to avoid giving up power in January. They remain convinced that GWB's goal in life is to make himself a dictator. The martial law statement by Tommy Frank only feeds into that paranoia.
PMK
The left always screams, they have it in their DNA. They are funny when they get paranoid and screaming. What scares me is the "looking down their nose attitude" of most Washington types. Most of them today are full of themselves and don't think much of us. I think that GWB would be the last one to want to be a dictator.
"Clear and present danger"
Just imagine when all US communication goes down. because that what they aiming for and most likely thats only the first step. When all communications paralised and the chain of command is broken, then Armageddon
CLEAR AND PRESENT DANGER
The nabi would be curious to know if fried equipment needed to be replaced as opposed to merely tripping breakers and then auto reset. Was the outage for only moments? Enquiring minds want to know.
kafir
What happened in Hawaii after StarPrime would be a picnic compared to today. The nuke EMP sends out two pulses. The short pulse takes out all the computers and electronic systems. The long pulse takes out all the wires and power transformers. Today, nukes can be specificlly designed to maximize the EMP pulse. StarPrime was just an ordinary nuke.
Experts estimate that within a 600 mile radius all utility power systems would be burned up. More minor power damage up to 1000 miles. Computers and electronic go dead within 1000 to 1500 miles radius.
So, call a repairman. Problem is that the phones don't work. Cars & trucks don't run. Water don't get pumped. Fuel don't get shipped. Everyone is on their own.
So it is of little consolation to nuke Iran back. We all get it. Ahmadinejad just might be crazy enough to do sometning like this. Do you want to trust his sanity?
Our (hardened) sub systems can still take out Iran and the entire Arabian peninsula afterward.
CGW
No question about our subs. One Trident sub could make a parking lot out of the middle east. But here is the BIG BIG problem which I haven't discussed yet.
Now I don't want to ruin everybody's day here, but we in the USA cannot survive living in the 1800's and the middle eastern people can. There would be some of them left. They live in the 10th century today. They would come into our country in numbers and take control because most of us would be dead. They could do this because they know how to survive in a primitive environment and we can't.
So I repeat, bomb those bastards back to the 10th century and do it before they bomb us into the 17th century.
CLEAR AND PRESENT DANGER
hemoglobin
I can't say it better than than.
Cornelius & Witness, I suspect you're both a couple of the "good guys" the artist was talking about.
It's OK with us (females) if you shed a few tears. Didn't you notice how the narrator characterized the painter as "tough" while she was crying? That was perfect.
"The people with the knowledge will still be here."
Posted by: PMK
Yeah, they will. The thing is, they won't be the same people.
They'll be people like the Amish, who know how to get on without electricity. I only hope they'll share...
Spot on:
Those primitives can't eat oil, and they can't survive without the food and aid we give them.
Those primitives can't eat oil, and they can't survive without the food and aid we give them.
CGW
You know that, I know that, but do they know that?
Or better, do they care?
Actually, I remember that Ahmadinejad told Israel recently that Iran could survive any Israel nuke attack and he went on to say that Israel couldn't kill all the Iranians. He further said that Iran would have enough population left to get along just fine.
They'll be people like the Amish, who know how to get on without electricity. I only hope they'll share...
absedere
That's the best idea so far short of literally bombing the hell out of Iran.
If OUR communications are destroyed by an EMP, what about the rest of the world? We laid those global undersea cables to facilitate transfer of data. If there's nothing coming in, there's nothing going out, either. A lot of foreign companies will lose American customers when the Internet goes down.
We have communication between two countries that passes through the US on its way from the originator to the receiver.
If even telephone service is out, there will be no news coming into or leaving the US. Probably no flights, either since air traffic control would be affected.
Electronic systems have backups and workarounds to ensure continuity in the event of a single point in the system going out but will that be enough in the event of a large-scale failure?
It would seem that many parts of the world will get a cough when the US gets a cold. After the US, Canada stands to suffer the most.
Wellington,
I don't understand why targeting the cities of Mecca, Medina and all other sites that are sacred to Muslims, with the exception of Jerusalem, isn't PUBLIC policy. In the case of Jerusalem, Israel should be empowered to destroy the mosque on the Temple Mount.
We had Mutual Assured Destruction during the cold war. Given that the threat we face is from Islam it should be Mecca's Assured Destruction.
We should make no apologies for it, either. We tell those who say we are fighting a war against Islam that nothing will happen if Muslims don't attack us. Put the ball in their court.
If we're worried about the price of oil, what do people think will happen in the event of a large-scale attack on the US? Price stability?
They would come into our country in numbers and take control because most of us would be dead. They could do this because they know how to survive in a primitive environment and we can't.
Spot On,
If we're dead then wouldn't that mean the land is contaminated with radiation? How can they come without killing themselves as well? A primitive environment is a far cry from a deadly one.
They won't be able to come here after such an attack unless they get a whole lot of ships and sail across the ocean, in which case they'll end up at the bottom of the Atlantic mid-voyage, courtesy of an American torpedo.
Air traffic control won't operate. Commercial traffic will be stopped cold. How much of an air force does Iran or any Muslim nation have? If they do manage to fly a plane and land it, it will never go back up, unless they have a bucket brigade to refuel it. The people that land will be killed as they come down the steps.
If we're dead then wouldn't that mean the land is contaminated with radiation...
They won't be able to come here after such an attack unless they get a whole lot of ships and sail across the ocean, in which case they'll end up at the bottom of the Atlantic mid-voyage, courtesy of an American torpedo.
PMK
Radiation is not a problem in this case. It would stay in space and ruin all the satellites. This is what happened in 1962.
As far as them coming over here to repopulate the U.S...somebody will. And the Amish are not very good at fighting. Chaos would reign. The fittest would take over. In a medival environment, it is hard to say.
PMK
My guess is that if chaos reigns, Muslims have the best chance of success in the long run. Unfortunately, the Muslims always think in terms of success in the long run.
In a medival environment, it is hard to say....
Dude get a grip. The power was off in Honolulu for how long?
nabi ZK
What hasn't been really meantioned so far is that once the power goes off, the affected circuits will have to be replaced. We simply can not replace every vital circuit because we do not have replacements, and with no power, we won't be able to make them. We would have to rely on our allies (Japan) to donate and transport the parts to us. It would take months to get the basic requirements going again (power plants and water facilities) and in the meanwhile, millions will starve, die form lack of medicine and medical assistance, and all out warfare over the remaining and quickly dwindling food resources. Those in the cities (ie..the poor and minorities) will be hit the hardest. Imagine New Orleans after Katrina on a national scale, without anyone coming in to help afterwards.
The military would survive and be able to fight the enemy and possibly help out on the homefront to some degree but the rest of us will be an a very long hunting/camping trip without cold beer and that's going to signal the end of our civilization....no cold beer.
It might surprise you, but there are a lot of people in these United States that are quite capable of surviving under adverse conditions. We still know how to plant crops, build shelters, cloth ourselves. We will survive.
Those that fear the coming of the islamic hordes, relax. Even if they could figure out how to sail or navigate the ships remaining afloat, they would be consumed with a need to claim the ultimate responsibilty for destrying the infidels, and would end up destroying each other and themselves. The fighting never ends with the folowers of mo, they are of a "last man standing" mentality.
We can and will prevail, of that I have no doubt.
Later
Albert
OK so that was all power and all circuits destroyed in Hawaii with replacement parts shipped in from the mainland over a period of months. Cars didn't work, just like with space aliens. Right? And the Hawaiians had no food and degenerated into anarchy. Right? It took months to get up and running again and in the meantime everybody starved. I got the scenario. So how much of this unfolded in Hawaii? Sounds like burglar alarms were a main victim. There was some mention of breakers and fuses. Beyond that how much damage was actually done? How long did it take to repair?
What we have here is an Electromagnetic Pulse which couples to the power grid and drives a sudden voltage spike. Of course the power grid has many safeguards for over voltage built in. Also realize that utility companies inventory spare parts just in case and so on. Stuff might not have to come from Japan as suggested.
Just not convinced on this one. This is not the way to attack America unless you have a follow on of many warheads. Russia could use EMP as part of a full on strike. That makes sense. iran? No. We will still be here after the fact. Possibly with a few damaged burglar alarms but intact. And angry because of those broken burglar alarms no doubt. No, if you are going to strike the king you had best kill the king.
the end of our civilization....no cold beer
Now you are talking threat. This is serious.
nabi ZK (pbum)
Dude get a grip. The power was off in Honolulu for how long?
kafir
We've come a long way since Honolulu 1962. The EMP nuke used in that test was not designed for EMP. The whole incident was an accident. That nuke was not as potent as ann EMP device as modern day EMP nukes . The Honolulu power grid was 800 - 1000 miles away. The power grid would be completely destroyed with today's nuke EMP out to 600 miles with lesser amounts of damage from 600 - 1000 miles.
Everything today has a computer in it. All computers would die. There would be no spare parts. Also the main power distribution transformers take up to 1 year to build and we would not have the facilities to build them. We would be soley dependent on Europe. I'm sure that Europe will go out of their way for us. Europe would probably send us all there Muslims as "volunteer" workers to "help" us. And where would we get our start up money? No jobs, no taxes, we would have to live off the land. I don't think we want to risk a nuke EMP attack.
The thing that is missed by all this is that we have to eat and drink every day. We will all be on a massive diet after a few days. But I am sure that Europe will go out of their way and quickly send us their Muslims to help us.
The implication is that STARFISH PRIME at Honolulu was far from a worst-case event.
What we have here is an Electromagnetic Pulse which couples to the power grid and drives a sudden voltage spike. Of course the power grid has many safeguards for over voltage built in. Also realize that utility companies inventory spare parts just in case and so on. Stuff might not have to come from Japan as suggested.
Kafir
Here's the deal. Pulse #1 is a nanosecond pulse that takes out all the computers and electronic overload equipment. The electric companies use these to sense line overloads and they would die just fractions of a second before the long pulse hits. The long pulse induces massive DC currents (4000 amps)in the power lines. All the distribution lines and transformers are designed for AC not DC. When you put 4000 amps DC on an AC transformer, it dies. Most distribution wires cannot carry 4000 amps.
Dear nabi,
"We will still be here after the fact. Possibly with a few damaged burglar alarms but intact."
You will have to put your head much deeper in the sand than that to get any protection from the EMP; better to use a Faraday cage, or at least a grounded tinfoil hat. Please protect your nabi powers.
Your friend,
CC
kafir
If the info that everyone has presented here doesn't rattle your cage then please don't worry, the government will save us all if we take a hit by an EMP.
Spot on:
The info provided may inspire a certain amount of caution and preparedness on my part, I may stockpile a little more or plan my survival precautions better, but it does not rattle my cage at all. I am secure in my abilities to endure and survive, with or without the help of the government, electricity, communications, etc.
Get a grip, or get prepared, but quit running around with your tail between your legs at the first loud noise. It is embarassing.
Later
Albert
That's not really the point. Will your culture survive? Your country your forefathers shed blood to produce survive? The religion you follow? The economy? The anti-jihadi movement? Will we retain enough technological and tactical superiority to prevail to rebuild and influence the direction of civilization? What about your children, grandchildren, greatgrandchildren, etc.? Will they be satisfied with your decisions, knowing they could have been living in an advanced culture?
The point is, do we allow this vulnerability to influence our threshold for responding, preemptively, to potential threats?
I would say, YES, and much sooner than later.
Gamblers choice
I have everything I need to last at least 1 year or more under any circumstances including power. I put my money where my mouth is. Thats about 99% longer than the average bear could last.
Worse case analyses are always hypethical. This aparently is not your bag.
Actually, I thought the world was coming to an end. The posts so far evoke a doom and gloom that make technology, culture religion and civilized life a thing of the past. We are talking global destruction. At that point, who cares about culure and religion?
As far as pre-emptive strikes, how about now, today. No argument from me on that point
Later
Albert
..."Worse case analyses are always hypethical"...
In all of your hypetheticals, the end result is the end of the world as we know it. We lose. They win.
Maybe in your view, not mine. If this is the outcome I have to look forward to, even hypethetically, why bother?
The sky is not falling, I am not afraid.
You are.
Later
Albert
We agree on the main point. Hit them before they hit us.
But since I know what I know, and our politicians don't give a hoot about giving anybody a clue as to the danger we all face from the likes of Iran, then it is up to us to discuss the things that no one wants to talk about.
Most people do not grasp the EMP as a weapon. As a result our politicians will never talk about it much less do anything about it.
Because I sold semiconductors for 15 years, I fully understand exactly what happens to the semiconductor devices in a computer due to an EMP. So I know it is real. Like it or not, we are totally dependent on semiconductors for survival of the masses. It is for them that I speak. You and I must have the masses of people in our country for our children and grandchildren to live there lives in a reasonable fashion. The Islamists will end all this if we give them a chance.
In all of your hypetheticals, the end result is the end of the world as we know it. We lose. They win.
Gamblers choice
There is only one way for a bunch of goat herders to destroy the U.S., Launch a nuke EMP. That is the only way possible for them. They know this. They have been testing for two years. They have publically stated such.
The way for us to win is to hit them first. Then we win and they lose. If we wait for them to hit us first then they win and we lose. It is as simple as that. I don't like to lose. But if our politicians keep going down the road they are going, we will lose.
Me, for one, and, I dare say, you also, otherwise, you would have already gone hunting and fishing, instead of posting here on JihadWatch.
You are absolutely correct CC. Grounded tin foil will protect all those semiconductors. This is one case where tin foil shielding will be completely effective. Actually it should not be necessary to even ground the tin foil.
Spot on. You are saying that the emf generated in the little IC circuit will be enough to over voltage the small devices instantly, and that is why the surge protection will fail on the grid. I guess you are saying the pulse is too quick to be caught by the voltage protection on the grid or that an initial pulse will knock out all that protection. So after that nothing will work and we will be in the stone age, permanently, because nobody will be able to fix anything or they will starve before they can. Is that right?
I don't believe it. But you can if you like. I do think that the sunfish thing, and not a bunch of theory (theory is often stupid so always check with experiment), is the best indication of what might happen. Last I looked Hawaii is still here. In fact I can guarantee you that there were working electronic devices in Hawaii that were not effected by the test. Did we read that all the meat in Hawaiian refrigerators spoiled? No. I don't think that happened. You may correct me if I am wrong and power was out long enough to cause even this level of inconvenience. But I repeat myself.
Again, I do not doubt that serious damage would result from such an attack. But with no follow on we would still be here the next morning with blood in our eye and furious at the condition of our broken burglar alarms. We will then be asking the iranians to replace our burglar alarms or face the consequences for sure.
Why on earth do we maintain an arsenal of thousands of warheads when just one will take out Russia and just one more will take out China. Or are we only vulnerable to this kind of attack but they are much sterner and will require thousands of warheads? Enquiring minds want to know.
nabi ZK
The nabi has spoken. It is, in fact, a new religion, Church of the Indomitable Spirit and Circuitry. I want to believe, but my faith is weak. Help me, my unbelief.
References, please. You've seen those posted above. You've not interacted with those, just fixated on burglar alarms 800+ miles from the epicenter.
The people who've seen the classified info, and written the Congressional reports, say it will be bad.
We have thousands of nukes, but we have millions, if not billions, of bullets. Why do we have bullets, it a few nukes can take them out? Perhaps, part of the Cold War Era psychology was that both sides agreed, going back to the early nineteenth century was a little more M.A.D. than they had in mind?
Please, God help us, is there no one from Hawaii, that has lived there since the fifties, that remembers this? Please?
Russia, China, have EMP nukes. They considered using them but worried about MAD. That's another story.
A beer can conventional EMP device can take out an airport system but thats another story.
If there is no value in EMP then why is the government spending gazillions of dollars hardening all the battlefield systems?
Trust me CC. Tinfoil will shield. :) This is not a new religion it's just that tinfoil is a good conductor.
Possibly you have forgotten how Mr. Feynman made goons of all those govt. and NASA experts with their computer print outs and projections. Mr. Feynman says "Experiment alone is the sole judge of Scientific truth". And he also says "Science is disbelief in the authority of experts".
So it is possible that these dire predictions are true. But the experiment has not been done which points to the end of the world scenario. Sunfish does not point to such a doomsday scenario. Hawaii is still here. There were not mass casualties in Hawaii from Sunfish. There were not any casualties in Hawaii.
Spot on. Obviously we and our adversaries would consider and plan and even produce weapons and shielding from those weapons. That's just normal and goes to show that the military would survive intact from your single emp warhead scenario. That should deter. But you are right. The Mad Mullahs are crazy and might try to bring back the Mahdi or some such. That is why they should never be allowed to have nukes. Never.
nabi ZK (pbum)
...just don;t let them have any and we don;t have to worry about it....believe it...
ZK (sauced),
Please direct me to Richard Feynman's comparative analysis of 1962 Hawaii to 2008 Washington, D.C.
If you cannot, then I am forced to accept your challenge. We shall have to prove the systems vulnerability by detonating an EMP nuclear device over Tehran. I have a dollar that says they have to go back to non-amplified adhan.
Trans-Atlantic Cables? CAN-TAT, P-TAT?
Shahab-3s don't have an effective range that can hit remotely near Hawaii. Bear in mind that Iran also has a dozen or more X-15s from Ukraine, the arrangement was made in 1999.
Regardless, what area is the main landing points for the CANTAT, P-TAT, AC-2 and other sub-marine telecommunications channels.
I agree this is a valid threat, but these worst case scenarios - bombing North America back to the 1800's, is absurd.
Iran's missile in question has a range of perhaps 300 km, and a max altitude of perhaps 100 km. That means, even if launched off the coast of NY, it couldn't get half way through Pennsylvania, let alone Kansas. The altitude is far from optimal, and the bomb power would probably be minimal.
This means at best they might knock out power in a few eastern seaboard cities, NYC, Boston. Biggest thing that would happen is a lot of bleeding heart liberals might discover their brains.
Given the uncertainty of the results, and the desire to create maximum terror, I expect they would attack a city directly instead. Blood, guts, carnage, and destruction beats EMP, unless one could really assure knocking out the entire country. And to keep the risk of failure down, why launch it at all? Just float it in to the harbour and blow it up.
So while a real threat, a direct attack on one or more cities is more likely. The EMP idea makes much more sense on Israel where the damage radius would cover the whole country.
Whew, God, what a relief! That shouldn't effect the economy at all, and just a weekend cleanup.
I would never ask a JW'er where they live, but it is pretty obvious you don't live on the upper east coast.
If you cannot, then I am forced to accept your challenge. We shall have to prove the systems vulnerability by detonating an EMP nuclear device over Tehran. I have a dollar that says they have to go back to non-amplified adhan....
Wow CC (pbuy). For sure they would have to go back to non-amped for a while at least. I, the nabific, (pbum), have conceded that unless, of course, the mullahs have shielded their equipment with properly grounded tin foil.
nabi ZK (pbum)
Nabi
The grounded tin foil with shielding probably works. But if you ever want to get it tested for a nuke EMP you can call 613-998-2675. This is the Canadian Nuke EMP testing lab. Or you can go to
http://www.ottawa.drdc-rddc.gc.ca/html/rew_333_emp_e.html and check them out.
To read up on the Russki’s efforts to EMP us to death, you can go to
http://cryptome.org/bartlett-060905.txt
I enjoyed discussing this with you.
Spot
Concerned citizen
I love your idea of testing the nuke over Tehran.
Clay Marley
I sort of thought that Ahmadinejad would get a real kick out of watching us slowly starve to death. But your blood and guts idea is a real possibility. We can pick our poisen, I guess.
I'm sure Iran will work out whatever details in altitude or megatonnage that works the best to kill us as long as we give them enought time.
We have all had a detailed discussion on HOW Iran might kill us.
The other valid debate is IF they plan to kill us. Mutual Assured Destruction policy works great with the communists because every time they get all heated up to kill us, they get that awlful feeling that our subs are laying out there just waiting to do the same thing to them. And they don't get 72 virgins and no Mahdi appears out of a well.
Ahmadinejad and his gang, I submit, are different. Far different. I believe that between the 72 virgins and the Mahdi, and when they just can't resist the temptation to kill us, they will take the well planned chance and kill as many of us as they can. (I prefer to think they would like to see us starve and kill one another, but that is debatable.) If they miscalculate and our politicians ever wake up and shoot back, then they can fall back on their 72 virgins and Mahdi.
The Saudis, Jordanians, Egyptians, etc. leaders are not true believers like old Ahmad & his gang. That is my main concern over all this.
Spot
They hit us, we hit them and their allies, let's see who prevails.
We have the best agricultural system in the world. Let's see them eat natural gas and oil.
We are seeing the Bifurcation of Humanity, primitives vs. Moderns. My money's on the Moderns (us, of course).