Spencer: The Stealth Jihad in Britain

In Human Events today I discuss a few features of the rapidly deteriorating situation in Britain:

Three years after the July 7, 2005, jihad terror attacks in London, the jihad in Britain is stronger than ever. It is not proceeding by means of more terrorism, but by stealth and by the preemptive surrender of all too many British officials.

The stealth jihad is a deeply-rooted, well-funded and wide-ranging effort to impose Islamic law, Sharia, upon the non-Muslim populations of Western countries. In England, and in America, it sometimes takes the form of an effort to win acceptance for Sharia law by portraying it as a matter of “civil rights” and multicultural “diversity.”

This effort got a tremendous shot in the arm in Britain last Thursday, when the Lord Chief Justice, Lord Phillips of Worth Matravers, said in an address at the London Muslim Centre that “it is possible in this country for those who are entering into a contractual agreement to agree that the agreement shall be governed by law other than English law.” Including Islamic law? Yes: “There is no reason why principles of sharia, or any other religious code, should not be the basis for mediation or other forms of alternative dispute resolution.”

At first glance there is nothing remarkable in this. The Lord Chief Justice is calling simply for the voluntary application of Sharia in private arbitration. He emphasized that the decisions of such arbitration would be subject to British law: “So far as the law is concerned,” he explained, “those who live in this country are governed by English and Welsh law and subject to the jurisdiction of the English and Welsh courts.” As such, “it must be recognized however that any sanctions for a failure to comply with the agreed terms of the mediation would be drawn from the laws of England and Wales.”

He also decisively rejected the idea that the notorious Sharia penalties of stoning for adultery and amputation for theft would be implemented in Britain: “There can be no question of such sanctions being applied to or by any Muslim who lives within this jurisdiction.”

But if he hedged his statement about the use of Sharia for private arbitration so carefully, why are the Lord Chief Justice’s remarks a victory for the stealth jihad?

The answer to this lies in the nature of Sharia itself. Private matters are not so easy to separate from public ones. If a Sharia court finds a man not guilty of adultery, would that judgment be enforced in a British court, perhaps denying his wife a divorce? The Lord Chief Justice speaks coolly of not allowing punishments that contravene British law, but once the principle that Sharia can be applied in Britain is accepted, calls to increase its scope will begin immediately.

The next step will be challenges to the principle he stated that whenever British law and Sharia come into conflict, British law must give way. And given the prevailing multiculturalist relativism, soon enough that principle will give way to British courts enforcing Sharia decisions.

In his address Lord Phillips praised the Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams, who famously said last February that it was “inevitable” that Sharia would come to Britain. “An approach to law which simply said -- there’s one law for everybody -- I think that's a bit of a danger,” said the Archbishop. He had apparently forgotten, if he ever knew, that the idea of “one law for everybody” was one of the great achievements of Judeo-Christian civilization, and was rooted in the idea of the dignity of all human beings as created in the image of God.

Once a society discards the principle of “one law for everybody,” it lays the groundwork for protected and privileged classes, and ends up inevitably with a tyranny in which some groups are denied basic rights. That’s why the American Constitution requires “equal protection under the law” for all citizens.

How rapidly is the stealth jihad advancing in Britain? Two British seventh graders were recently given detention after refusing to take part in a class exercise that involved their participating in Islamic prayer: literally, they were being forced to pray to Allah. The mother of one of the boys commented: “This isn’t right, it’s taking things too far. I understand that they have to learn about other religions. I can live with that but it is taking it a step too far to be punished because they wouldn’t join in Muslim prayer. Making them pray to Allah, who isn’t who they worship, is wrong and what got me is that they were told they were being disrespectful.” Another parent remarked: “The school is wonderful but this one teacher has made a major mistake. It seems to be happening throughout society. People think they can ride roughshod over our beliefs and the way we live.”

Indeed they do, and multiculturalist relativists such as the teacher at this school seem to have no idea of the larger implications of their actions. They, like Lord Phillips, remain unaware of the stealth jihad agenda to implement Sharia, and their own role as the useful idiots in that campaign.

They will, before too long, find that those they have been so earnest to accommodate are not at all satisfied by their surrenders and have come up with new lists of demands. They will have to draw the line or consent to their conquest and Islamization. It may, for England, already be too late.

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41 Comments

"the rapidly deteriorating situation in Britain" --RS

The Dhimmi Watch article yesterday in which a toddler is to be seen as a potential racist if he/she doesn't like "spicy food" was off the charts of sanity.

I think the Mad Cow Disease has spread to the humans in Britain.

The Brits are becoming puppets of the uae

Great piece here, Robert. It's all very discouraging.

On a positive side, Newt Gingrich's National Press Club speech, featured on FrontPageMag's site, surprised me.

Someone besides Tancredo in political life is finally catching on to what the Muslims are up to.

And along with our esteemed Mr. Spencer, I lament the death of England, killed by the invaders who were invited to move there by England, herself.

This should serve as a warning to us here in the U.S.A. We already have over seven million Muslims residing here, legally or illegally. Their increasing presence and the inevitable calls for accomodating Sharia loom ahead. It is most sinister and menacing to our freedoms.

As far as the UK (Ummah Kaliphate) goes, given the brazen manner in which Islamic supremacy is being pursued - be it Sarah Desrosier's salon, the school that forced the entire class to pray to Allah, coupled with acts of dhimmitude from the leading judges, the Archbish (sorry, Hugh ;->) of Canterbury, the National Children's Bureau (the one that condemned racist toddlers for not liking spicy food), I wouldn't use the term 'stealth' to describe the jihad out there.

While they are at it, why don't they change Prime Meridian from Greenwich to Mecca?

The people of UK (I should say their government) has always been strange people: instead of progressing in European solidarity (Euro currency/Schengen agreement, common politics for agriculture...) they prefer a collective "civilization suicide" by admitting muslims on their soil!

While they are at it, why don't they change Prime Meridian from Greenwich to Mecca?

Posted by: Infidel Pride at July 9, 2008 8:59 AM

Actually, IP, I believe this has been proposed by UK Muslims. I did read an article about it.

Yeah, I agree, "stealth" had it's day, no doubt, but I think now the "brazen" jihad is happening in Britain. It's totally "in your face."

Amazing how eagerly Britain is wanting to be slaves to Islam.

How long before other ethnic groups in the U.K. start demanding, a la the Moslems, legal accomodation for their own traditions? The Hindus may want sanction for suttee, and some of them may want to follow Kali. The Chinese may want to revive the foot-binding of girls.
Witchcraft and druidism are already established. Others may want to revive the practice of human sacrifice to Moloch or Huitzilopochtli. And there's the ever-popular slavery and cannibalism.
Nothing like diversity, eh?

Shariah law is derived from the utterings, mutterings, hallucinatory rhetoric of Allah, and his one and only henchman, Mohammad.
No stone was left unturned, not even that of toileting. Shariah 'lite' will turn into Shariah heavy. And just what would a British Sharia Court, do with a convicted apostate, or adulteress? Or anyone convicted of causing mischief in the land 5:33? Let Shariah in the door, and the welcome guest will soon show it's true colors. It will, in time, erase and replace British law, and then you will see severe punishment. It is tantamount to a death sentence, for any dar-al-harb nation or people, to accept any measure of Shariah. In this respect, these Judges and Church leaders who attempt appeasement in this way, are condemning Britain to death. That is very serious and can only be combated by severe ridicule. These people have power by position, personally they are psychological wrecks.
A psychological wreck should not be in position to make important decisions. The US Congress, with it's lowest rating ever 9%, is a great western example of this. Or you can look to Europe and see more insane decisions being made.
Dar-al-harb must stay Shariah free...if you let it in, it will grow on you, not like a cancer, but a giant ever growing leach...

In addition to Muslim terrorism, intimidation and creeping Sharia, Britain has been plagued by an epidemic of knife violence. Forty years ago Enoch Powell warned of exactly what would occur if the British continued with their short-sighted open immigration policies. Unfortunately it looks like only the "soccer thugs" can save Britain now.

"The Hindus may want sanction for suttee" --ebonystone

Actually that's been outlawed in India as far back as 1929 I believe. You can check the exact date.

However, just because it's legally outlawed doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It does, esp. in rural areas. A book was written about the sati Roop Kanwar who committed sati on her husband's funeral pyre in the 1980's. I'm going to go find the info.

The woman is both a sati and she commits sati. Noun and verb.

"The Hindus may want sanction for suttee" --ebonystone

Actually that's been outlawed in India as far back as 1929 I believe. You can check the exact date.

However, just because it's legally outlawed doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It does, esp. in rural areas. A book was written about the sati Roop Kanwar who committed sati on her husband's funeral pyre in the 1980's. I'm going to go find the info.

The woman is both a sati and she commits sati. Noun and verb.

Here's the book which tells the recent (1987, if I remember correctly) story of Sati Roop Kanwar, and about Sati in general:


http://www.amazon.com/Sati-Blessing-Curse-Burning-Wives/dp/0195077741

The invasion of Dar -al harb.

1. Arrival.

2. Growth.

3. Demands.

4. Growth.

5. Growth of mosques,

6. More Growth.

7. More demands.

8. Growth.

9. Capture the vote.

10. Install Shariah.

11. Growth.

All made possible by #1...Arrival.

Stop muslim immigration...

There's this one, too.

http://www.amazon.com/Death-Fire-Female-Infanticide-Modern/dp/0813531020/ref=pd_sim_b_6

We focus on Muslim women here, and with good reason, many, many good reasons, but Hindu women don't have it great, either. And female infanticide is an epidemic in India. Also China. Hundreds of thousands of girls
are missing in both of these countries due to female infanticide. It's so bad that when I see a Chinese woman I think, "Wow, they didn't kill her at birth."

Anyway, as ebonystone sarcastically remarked, "Nothing like diversity, eh?"

Yeah, and "It's all good," right, estone?

Thanks for your comment, Darcy. As you say, it's outlawed in India, altho still occasionally practiced.
My point was that these sorts of old, outlawed barbarisms are still there, below the surface, and can easily be revived. Sharia law is the first of these. And if British law can accomodate the savagery of sharia, then it can accomodate suttee, cannibalism, human sacrifice, and all the rest.
It's not "back to the future", it's forward to the past. A very dark past.

Yes, ebonystone.

Reminds me of Kurtz in "Heart of Darkness." - "The Horror, The Horror" - you got that right.

What is happening right now in Britain is utterly horrifying. Ditto WE in general, of course. A return to Barbarism on it's way?

It looks like UK is competing with Sweden for status of the most dhimmified nation in Europe. Hopefully they will both soon leave the European Union and join the arab league and be replaced by Serbia and Israel in the EU.

"We focus on Muslim women here, and with good reason, many, many good reasons, but Hindu women don't have it great, either. And female infanticide is an epidemic in India. Also China. Hundreds of thousands of girls are missing in both of these countries due to female infanticide."

Posted by: darcy

Yes, lots of non-moslem places are pretty lousy, too. In China the traditional preference for sons is now re-inforced by the one-child policy; if a couple can have only one child, they generally prefer a son.
If the Chinese keep this up, they can expect a drastic population decline in the near future. Even two children per couple is below replacement rate. Their decline combined with the growth of the Moslem population in the world means they won't be able to hang on to Sinkiang (or the other western provinces) for much longer. I had thought that the Chinese had come to their senses when they discarded Maoism, but now I'm beginning to wonder.

"The Hindus may want sanction for suttee, and some of them may want to follow Kali." from a posting above, and some more of the same.

As someone who's lived among Hindus and Sikhs for years in India, and as someone who loves the country despite a load of flaws, I hope I can clarify a couple of points.

Suttee is not a Hindu religious practice. It made its appearance only in the Middle Ages. It originated with the wives of dead Rajput warriors committing suicide rather than facing a fate worse than death at the hands of the Muslims conquerors. This practice was mainly confined to the Rajputana region. Even the Roop Kanwar case, so painstakingly dug up above, occurred in this area. Illiteracy tends to keep wrong customs alive.

Kali worship is misunderstood because of Indiana Jones type of movies. Human sacrifices ane not any part of it. Kali (or Bhowani) IS worshipped by the warrior castes like Rajputs and Gurkhas. And these are warriors whom the Muslims hate. They hate the Sikhs too, but they don't ordinarily worship Kali. That's not to say I haven't seen Sikhs in Kali temples. And that is a rather lovable quality of the Infidel Indians, their easy acceptance of all the other fellow's gods and goddesses.

Killing of girl infants is something more hyped by the local dhimmi (Hindus can't do anything right) press and TV media than in reality. One did hear of cases of women aborting female fetuses but that's said to be illegal now. It was more of an obsession with male heirs than anything religious. And it cut across all religious boundaries.

The Asian migrants in Britain have no doubt created problems for the host people, and yes, they ought to have been more sensitive to the locals.

But the fact is that the Sikhs and Hindus have been holding their end up against jihad for more years than the West can care to count. If global jihad is to be tackled, these are valuable soldiers who know the enemy quite well. Some of his languages, guiles, ruthlessness et al. Their tragedy is that they've been poorly served by their politicians (notice anything familiar?)

Infidels need to unite.

ebonystone,
The Chinese already have a huge imbalance between boys and girls. The ratio is about 120 boys to 100 girls.
China's Muslims are exempt from the one-child policy, though I don't know why. Owing to the sheer size of China, it might take many more generations for them to achieve parity with the Chinese but they will. The question is: why are they allowed something denied other Chinese? Maybe today's rulers don't see their demographic suicide.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/HI06Ad01.html

In the past the Hui were among the least orthodox Muslims in the world. Many smoked and drank, few grew beards, and Hui women rarely wore veils. Increased contact with the Middle East, however, has wrought changes. Thousands of Hui students have returned from colleges in Arab countries over the past few years and they have brought with them stricter ideas of Islam. Mosques in Ningxia have now begun to receive worshippers five times a day, more Hui women have taken to wearing headscarves, and skullcaps are in wide evidence.

They combine terrorism with whining about being persecuted by Britons.

(Was my first post bad?)

RS,
Please disregard that question. I was thinking about something else.
PMK

"Even the Roop Kanwar case, so painstakingly dug up above, occurred in this area." --posted above

What was "painstaking" about it? I read the book several years ago, and the Roop Kanwar case is in it. So, what's "painstakingly dug up?" Sorry if you don't like that I brought it up after ebonystones's post about sati, too bad.

The fact is that female infanticide is, and has always been, rampant in India and China and also Japan. The misogynist practice escalated with the appearance of ultrasound machines in India. No longer did 9 months have to pass to know the sex of the child. Mass abortions have taken place after couples have determined that the sex of their child was female. This is not "hype" but reality.

Right, it's not religious, but misogynist. The status of females in India is very, very, low. Males are the apex, end of story. Ditto in China, Japan. I believe that pre-Islamic Arabia also practiced female infanticide. Anybody know anything about that?

The dearth of females in China has created a phenomenon of Chinese male migration, where they must visit other countries to find a bride:

http://tamusystem.tamu.edu/systemwide/05/09/research/china.html

Now hopefully we'll get off this subject, which was just an aside, anyway,

Concerning the Stealth Jihad, I now call it the Brazen Jihad. And yeah, "Infidels need to unite." ASAP.

Thanks for your comment, Darcy. As you say, it's outlawed in India, altho still occasionally practiced.
My point was that these sorts of old, outlawed barbarisms are still there, below the surface, and can easily be revived. Sharia law is the first of these.

Actually, in India, sharia law is already applied in family law questions involving Mohammedans, as it has been since the days of the Raj. At least on those matters, it doesn't need to be revived.

The discussion of sati or suttee on this thread puts me in mind of questions I raised nearly a year ago in a post discussing the effect of the Muslim conquest of India on Hindus, as on the Spanish in Spain.

Here is an excerpt from that year-old post:

"Questions for historians: to what extent did Muslim conquests, subsequently reversed (as in Spain with the Reconquista, or in India, where Muslim rulers were driven out, in turn, by the British, under whose rule Hindus were helped to redisvoer their own pre-Islamic past) affect those who had been under Muslim rule.

In Spain, the Reconquista, that five-hundred year campaign to retake or regain Spain from Muslim overlords (for grim fun see Maria Rosa Menocal’s addition to the literature of the myth of Andalucia, that supposedly splendid example of interfaith harmony avant la lettre), surely changed Spanish national character. As it happened, beginning in the late 15th century, at a time when the Spanish might have continued their wars against the Muslims right to North Africa, they were diverted to channeling their energies (and aggression) into the conquest of the New may have contributed to a certain hardness and harshness, and the fact that Spanish aggression was diverted from carrying the campaign against the Infidels across the Mediterranean to North Africa, into a new area: the New World, and its conquest. And to what extent was the harsh treatment (even if the Black Legend or Leyenda Negra has been debunked) of Indians, los indios, by conquerors and Catholic missionaries, the behavior famously deplored by Bartolomé de las Casas, a reflection of that harshness, which in turn may have simply been due to the effect of Spanish warriors coming to emulate, out of necessity, the behavior of the Muslims in Spain with whom they fought for so long. It was, incidentally, Christian theologians of natural law, the jus gentium of its day, such as Vitoria and Suarez, who declared certain aspects of Spanish behavior, based on Spanish claims in the New World to be a violation of natural law, earning them, as Boswell records, Samuel Johnson’s praise for "the good doctors of Salamanca."

And in India, which V. S. Naipaul has described as being, because of the Muslim conquest and Muslim rule, a “wounded civilization,” what was it that made Bharat, the Land of the Hindus, whose easygoing, all-embracing, all-accepting Way (open to all, to wade into, as far out and in deep as they wished), a place at times of intermittent violence which may have started as a band of irregulars fighting Muslim overlords. When did the dacoits and thuggees get started? And what about “sati” (suttee), the custom of having the widow immolate herself on the funeral pyre of her husband – was this a Hindu custom fro time immemorial, or was it possibly something that was done to avoid a fate that such Hindu widows might suffer at Muslim hands?

And to what extent did the Muslim conquest, as it made its way southward, down to the refractory Deccan, to the lands of the Tamils, introduce a new kind of attitude toward violence that has something to do with the methods chosen by the Tamil Tigers today?

These are questions, not assertions, that have come swimmingly to mind. There may be nothing to them, or a great deal. Until recently, until Bat Ye’or, no one had systematically studied the condition of the non-Muslims under Muslim rule, though Bat Ye’or herself would quickly assure us that her work was also, in large part, one of synthesis, based on the studies of many other unintimidated and forthright Western scholars. But I am unaware of the systematic study, or any study, of what Muslim rule did to the psychology of the Spanish, of Indians, of the Sicilians, though such names as Salvador de Madariaga (less scholar than popular historian), and K. S. Lal, and for siculo-arab history, Michele Amari, all come to mind. Surely there was a great effect.

Well, who has traced the lineaments of such an effect? What a field wide-open for study: how the Muslim conquests affected not those who remained conquered, but how they affected those who had been conquered, and who in one way or another had the Muslim yoke removed. We know what happened to those who remained conquered. They were killed. Or they over time succumbed to Islam, in order to avoid the unendurable onerousness of humiliation, degradation, and physical insecurity (including sudden forcible conversions on pain of death, which a Muslim ruler, celebrating a conquest or the birth of a son, might order). And then there are the remnants that are left. In the Middle East, these are those who managed to survive, either because of geography (the mountains of Mount Lebanon, or highlands of what is now Kurdistan) or because of distances that provided safety (so that a Muslim ruler’s writ might not run to distant villages, located far away from the capital), or for other reasons. Think of Maronites, Copts, Zoroastrians, Chaldo-Assyrians, and of course the Jews, those who never left the Middle East, who are no longer anywhere to be found in the Arab world (save for a handful in Morocco), having been killed, driven out, or having escaped, just, in order to be in-gathered in the one recent example of a people retaking the land that had been conquered by Muslims (in the case of Israel, however, the “retaking” was not by conquest, but by buying land from Ottoman and Arab landlords, and then having to successfully ward off repeated examples of Jihad by “qitaal” or combat (and terrorism). For the Muslims [especially Arab Muslims] offended at the establishment of Infidel rule in what had been until very recently, part of Dar al-Islam, have and do and will conduct Jihad whenever they can, no matter what further concessions or surrenders Israel makes, conduct it against that tiny, but to them permanently intolerable Infidel state.

[Posted by: Hugh at August 24, 2007 10:39 AM]

This elicited a posting from "Infidel Pride" -- who has special knowledge of Hindu practices and Indian history, about suttee:

"And what about “sati” (suttee), the custom of having the widow immolate herself on the funeral pyre of her husband – was this a Hindu custom fro time immemorial, or was it possibly something that was done to avoid a fate that such Hindu widows might suffer at Muslim hands?" [Hugh]

It was a rare practice in pre-Islamic India, and even rarer in the Vedic period: for instance, check out the Ramayan and one will find that none of the women who were widowed ever practiced it. (This is not to state that the condition of widows was a happy lot, but the practice of sati itself was rare.)

Also, there was another practice called Jauhar, whereby before a city was about to fall to Muslims, the women of that city would drug themseves and commit self-immolation to avoid falling into Muslim hands and getting raped or sold as sex slaves. This practice was not only not there in pre-Islamic times, when enemy Hindu warriors would honor various codes of war conduct and not ravage civilians: in the 18th century, when Hindu Maratha warriors were on a subjugation campaign of their own in Rajputana, Rajput women then did not commit jauhar, since they knew that the Marathas followed the same kshatriya code of conduct that the Rajputs did.


[Posted by: Infidel Pride at August 24, 2007 12:08 PM]

And today, someone who is not Hindu, but has spent years in India, the poster "Hedgehog," adds to our store by echoing what "Infidel Pride" wrote about suttee, the matter that in my own posting on Aug. 24, 2007 suggested was one example of a practice that might have been a response to Muslim conquerors, just as I suggested that the particular ferocity of the Inquisition in Spain may have been a product of the Reconquista, and the development, as a reaction to Muslim cunning and ferocity, of both a new, "racial" antisemitism (see Benzion Netanyahu's massively detailed work on the Spanish Inquisition), and a Christian ferocity that, developed out of necessity during the Reconquista, may help explain the mistreatment of the Indians in the New World, the mistreatment that gave rise to the Black Legend and the protests of Bartolome de las Casas).

Here is what "Hedgehog" wrote in a posting above:

"Suttee is not a Hindu religious practice. It made its appearance only in the Middle Ages. It originated with the wives of dead Rajput warriors committing suicide rather than facing a fate worse than death at the hands of the Muslims conquerors."

Food for thought.

Food for a hundred doctoral theses: "Islam and Suttee" or "Islam, Taqiyya, and "Racial" Antisemitism in the Inquisition" or "Islam, the Reconquista, and Spanish Behavior In the New World."

Looking for a thesis topic, you hard-pressed student of Indian history or student of Latin America, or student of antisemitism, or student of the history of Catholicism, or student of Islam and its Influence on the West, or student of (your favorite here)?

Look no farther.

This link is on the Origins of Sati, which are "hotly (I assume no pun intended) debated."

In addition to saving women from being dishonored during war, "sati" which means "chaste" in Sanskrit, assured that the dead man's wife would remain chaste, and testified to her "everlasting devotion to him." IOW, the practice of sati doesn't ONLY have to do with rapist invaders. This is a brief synopsis, and very informative:

http://chnm.gmu.edu/wwh/modules/lesson5/lesson5.php?s=0

As an example, the 1987 Roop Kanwar case from the book I read a few years ago (and provided the link for above) has nothing whatsoever to do with Muslims.

Hedgehog, thanks for your clarification about Kali. I guess I was confusing the cult of thuggee with Kali-worship in general.
Indiana Jones never crossed my mind. But Gunga Din and Harry Flashman did.

Here's some specific info along with photos about the 1987 widow-burning Roop Kanwar case.


http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl2105/stories/20040312002504600.htm

Thanks, Hugh, for citing my past quotes about Sati. Hedgehog is correct above - Sati was not widely practiced in pre-Islamic India. For instance, at the same time Mohammed was ravaging Arabia, the leading ruler in India was Harshavardhan. When he ascended his throne, his sister had been widowed by invaders who captured her, and she managed to escape, and attempted to self immolate to avoid falling into the hands of her enemies (a rare exception to the rule about not ill-treating civilian captives). She was discovered just in time by her brother, and after that, joined her brother, who took over her late husband's kingdom in Kanauj - didn't think of commiting sati once she was safe. That tells one how rare it was in pre-Islamic India as late as the 7th century.

But it was certainly not central to Hinduism: in the Ramayan example that Hugh quoted me as citing, not only did nobody (e.g. Rama's mothers) do it, but Rama himself prevented the widow of one of his victims from immolating herself after he had killed her husband Vali. If this practice had been sanctioned by the shastras, Rama wouldn't have intervened.

Hedgehog is also correct about the practice being restricted to the Rajputs: I would add Bengal to that, and it essentially was restricted to sects that worshiped Kali. In other parts of India, it was just not done. This doesn't mean widows had it great - they had to dress in all white, turn vegetarian plus, give up jewelery and virtually all enjoyments of life.

Darcy is right in that 'Sati' does mean 'chaste', and typically, it was a term used to denote a highly select group of women (about 7 of them in all in Hindu mythology) who worshiped their husbands (one of the most notable examples being Sita in the Ramayan). It did not mean their cremation with their husbands. Sometimes, the term was thought to have originated from 'Sati' - the original wife of Shiva who self immolated herself not because her husband died, but because her father insulted him: therefore it is misleading to state that that set the standard for women immolating themselves on their husband's pyres.

Darcy

The Roop Kanwar case, when it happened, created a national furore within India because it was so rare, and had been banned since 1929. If it was common, it wouldn't have made front page news any more than dowry deaths, female foetacides (which have reduced since India banned ultrasound machines due to this reason), wife beatings, et al. Ebonystone's original post seemed to suggest that it's a Hindu religious thing, but all the evidence above points out that it was more social and historical than religious, as I pointed out above.


There are plenty more examples of sati in India between 1929 and 1987. If you get the book that I've already read (I've provided the Amazon link), you will read about those.

By 1987, there were Women's Organizations, i.e. Indian Feminists, who loudly and vociferously protested the sati of Roop which is why it got so much attention. Click on the link I posted above for photos and further info.

Sati originates due to male egotism and cultural misogyny. She has to die when he dies, but not vice-versa. There are no male sati and males don't have to be "chaste." Misogyny is endemic to every culture on the planet. So, yes, social and historical reasons, as you said, and not religious.

To say that sati in India has only to do with Muslims invading is simply not true.

So, if you disagree, for whatever reasons, we just agree to disagree. As I quoted in another post, the origins of sati ARE "hotly debated." No pun intended.

Darcy

You are welcome to disagree. However, to state that there were several instances of Sati between 1929 to 1987 in no way refutes my contention that it was rare in the pre-Islamic period (i.e. before 1000AD), and therefore is only tied to invading Muslims. Those who did practice it obviously followed the more recent post-Islamic period examples rather than the pre-Islamic ones.

Just to spell out my original contention, it was that Sati was not a creation of Hindu scriptures, but a tragic social rite born out of necessity (to avoid making Hindu women tilths for invading Mohammedan armies). Nowhere did I, or do I, dispute that Indians were not guilty of practicing it longer than was needed, and are not therefore condemn-worthy.

Sorry, IP, but sati has it's origins in Hindu culture. Nothing to do with Muslims, which came later.

Rock on with your male agenda as it suits you, despite facts and common knowledge. To be expected.

Muslims are blameworthy, to be sure, but not to be blamed for everything, including sati.

They are also not to be blamed for the well-known "dowry deaths" (kitchen fires of brides), as well as abortions of female fetuses after an ultrasound.

Why don't you read the book I've posted the link to above?

I'm surprised the Balkans haven't been mentioned in a discussion of areas freed from Islamic rule. The ethnic cleansing, killing of male prisoners and mass rape of the wars there in the '90's had a distinctly Ottoman feel about them.
Accusations of mass rape are also made against Indian troops operating in Kashmir, almost certainly a bad habit picked up from their opponents.

Infidel Pride,
You misogynist. How dare you argue with a female Know-All ? Get the hell hold of that book, read it, and believe it. And then change your rocking male agenda. Bloody MCP.

Pedants Corner,

Excellent article, but I spotted one error. When you said:

'The next step will be challenges to the principle he stated that whenever British law and Sharia come into conflict, British law must give way.'

I think you meant to say 'Sharia law must give way'?

Iraq's 500 odd tons of yellow cake was recently sent to Canada for civilian nuclear energy use (the missing WMD?).

If Britain is going down the road to Mecca, we should be as much concerned about their nuclear arsenal as we were of Iraq's and are of Iran's. That goes for France too. If they do become Muslim controlled with the existing nukes in these countries you can see where that is heading. Instead of us again saving Europe from the bad guys in WW III, it could be fighting a Muslim Europe dedicated to an Iranian-style suicide path, in the name of Allah and the world caliphate.

If the Europeans are unwilling to implement a Tenth Crusade against their hostile Muslim "guests" we need to either get or disable those nukes so they cannot be used against us by the "new Europeans".

duh_swami's comments are right on target. People whose words and actions demonstrate mental instability should not be allowed to remain in positions of power that allow them to make important decisions affecting their country's welfare.

duh_swami's comments are right on target. People whose words and actions demonstrate mental instability should not be allowed to remain in positions of power that allow them to make important decisions affecting their country's welfare.

duh_swami's comments are right on target. People whose words and actions demonstrate mental instability should not be allowed to remain in positions of power that allow them to make important decisions affecting their country's welfare.

Their decline combined with the growth of the Moslem population in the world means they won't be able to hang on to Sinkiang (or the other western provinces) for much longer. I had thought that the Chinese had come to their senses when they discarded Maoism, but now I'm beginning to wonder.

Posted by: ebonystone

--

The Chinese have nukes and they're not afraid to use them. I'd love to see the mos try and bite off a piece of China..

I'm sure we'd be hearing from Shamnesty International and the rest of the Human Rights Industrial complex..







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