Fitzgerald: The jihad in Serbia revisited

The jihad in Serbia is one that is obscured in a particularly vexing way... (Hugh Fitzgerald)

May I ask who was a master at "obscuring the truth". Answer: Bill Clinton. This war was the MSM and Bill Clinton's justice.

Also, remember that Milosevic had a strong resemblance to Knute Gingrich. In my opinion this is the REAL reason we went against Serbia and the MSM demonized him as opposed to anyone else. They all had their hands dirty over their in Kosovo.

i was ignorant of the facts of the war. the serbs should have gotten our support.

Thank you Hugh,

It is really horrifying how many people are ready to spit upon Serbs not knowing even the basic facts about the history of the region and what happened in Yugoslavia. Very sad.

I still believe that Russia's current dislike of and general bad attitude toward the US is a direct result of our bombing Serbia. Thank you Bill Clinton and your fellow travellers.

Hugh

Totally correct. I had the good fortune to have a Serbian friend who was able to tell me the true story of what was going on at the time - the Western backing of radical Islamic states as a way to destabilize Russia. No wonder the Russians are still grumpy.

The amount of anti-Serb propaganda and misinformation, downright lies by Western news agencies at the at the time was breathtaking.

The demonization of the Serbs will go down as one of history's greatest mistakes, and is yet another reason to despise Clinton.

I still believe that Russia's current dislike of and general bad attitude toward the US is a direct result of our bombing Serbia."
- from a posting above

The current Russian regime is sufficiently aggressive and irrational and criminal -- see a certain Mr. Kakoito (a Saltykov-Schedrinesque name), who has been so useful in Northern Ossetia to all kinds of people needing to launder money)--that it does not always need to have ascribed to it perfectly rational thoughts.

Nonetheless, it is certainly true that the inattention to Serbia by the West, and the ill-conceived and unnecessary bombardment of Serbia by American fordes, and finally, the American insistence on quickly recognizing the independence of the Muslim-dominated (and becoming more Muslim-dominated every day) newly-created state of Kosovo, and as bad, American pressure on European allies to extend the same recognition, and then, hideous Ossa upon Pelion, that recent "Donors' Conference" which raised nearly two billion dollars for this independent Kosovo -- was the last straw. Georgia is an perceived by Russia as an American ally, not without reason -- there are even Georgian troops, or were, in Iraq.

But the Russians waited. Saakashvili made the mistake -- not a moral mistake but a geopolitical mistake ("c'est pire qu'un crime. C'est une faute.")-- of sending Georgian troops into Ossetia (North Ossetia is full of ethnic Russians, South Ossetia has Georgians, and there is as well a very small ethnic group called the "Ossetians"). And he did it with Bush in Beijing, where he would see Putin.

And -- need it be said -- Tarbaby Iraq and Baby Tarbaby Afghanistan keep American freedom of maneuver (not that America would go to war over Ossetia, or over Georgia, but that it might be able to do other things to display its power and might, if all that power and might were not, right now, tied down pursuing the will-o'-the-wisp of "progress" in Iraq and Afghanistan that will have no effect, or a negative effect, on the world-wide war of self-defense against Jihad.

Both McCain, who calls Iraq "the central front" in the "war on terror," and Obama, who begs to differ and calls Afghanistan "the central front" in the "war on terror," have it wrong. Very wrong.

Oh, all kinds of chickens are coming home to all kinds of roosts because of the idiotic mis-use of American military forces. Anyone paying attention to the conflict between South Korea and Japan over the Dokdo (Korea's version) or Takeshima (Japan's version) islands, or rather islets, uninhabited and unimportant in themselves, but very important because of the territorial-waters claims that can be made by the state that possesses these islands (see Liancourt Islands). Any sense that the American government has real time for Asia or for Russia, what with this mad campaign, this mad squandering of resources, to achieve goals that are

1) unachievable (Islam will always be back, in Iraq and in Afghanista and

2) exactly the wrong goals, for the only way to make the situation better for Infidels is to allow the local troubles to fester, to divide and demoralize the Camp of Islam, and by doing so, also discredit Islam in the eyes of would-be targets of Da'wa, and in the eyes of some Muslims themselves).

And since I've mentioned Korea, remember those 30,000 American troops on the 38th Parallel? Well, what will happen if China invades, as it may will, within the next few years (even with Kim Chong-Il still on his inherited throne) North Korea and takes it over. For North Korea, unlike South Korea (which has only an industrious population) is very rich in natural resources. Everywhere in the world, the Chinese have their eyes on economic dominance, and they need more and more and more natural resources. In Africa they get them through neo-colonial activities, and get away with things no European country would dare at this point even hint at trying. But North Korea, its economy collapsing, offering all those resources -- with its seizure by China allowing the latter to come much closer, with its forces, to South Korea and to Japan -- well, you get the picture, the picture that you heard here first.

But meanwhile, all eyes in Washington, and the four eyes of the two candidates, are on the goddam "central front" in the "war on terror" -- Iraq (honk if you want McCain) or Afghanistan (honn if you want Obama).

God, so much stupidity going around.

“The role played by Arabs who came from outside never received the attention in the West it deserved.”

Too bloody right……..

This a clip from Sky news showing the extent of the Arab legions/Mujahideen that were operating in the Balkans during the 1990’s.
Support for the Bosnian Muslims was just a precursor to their greater goal – a world-wide caliphate including all of Europe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3JEh33ZZdw&feature=related

This was something the Western media never really told us about.
Or that the Civil war in Bosnia was partly caused by the Bosnian Governments attempts to bring in Sharia Law.

All that we were told was that it was right to bomb Serbia into the Stone-age.
Why? Because Bill Clinton wanted it.

Well while I detest Islam and muslims in general, the Serbs and Milosevic were not innocent lambs either. Yugoslavia was a caldron that was only kept together by the totalitarian dictatorship of Tito and later by an attempted power play by Milosevic.

The US intervened after years of being pressured by the British, French, Germans, etc. who wanted to hit Milosevic but didn't have the capability nor the resolve, so they got the US to bomb Serbian strongholds as a way of deflecting any criticism from themselves, onto the US. The cries that the US "bombed Serbia back to the stoneage" are ridiculous exaggerations. I have some sympathy for the Serbs, but frankly find it a little difficult to believe everything they say as well. However, if the Serbs cleaned their house and became a more responsible, democratic government, I would support them in fighting back Islamification.

Now to today, no doubt there is a growing mujahideen presence in the Balkans; Islam is a virus that spreads by immigration, in my humble opinion. But liberalism is a mental disorder and until the West realizes this, the Islamification of the West and the world will continue. The only way to stop it is to stop large scale Muslim immigration. As for the Balkans, I have very little interest in that region of the world, it is terribly confusing and troubled. I dislike the Albanians, the Bosnian Muslims, I'm even not crazy about the Serbs, Croats, etc. As an American, I would drastically reduce all immigration into the US for the next 10-20 years - Muslim, Serbian, Croatian, Chinese, Russian, Mexican, etc. All immigration cut back. Let them kill each other to their heart's content.

I have been on record since the day it was ordered: the bombing of Serbian forces was a case of blue on blue. You are correct, Hugh, we have forgotten our history. We therefore will be doomed to repeat it.

Timothy F. McDonough, Ph.D.

Bombing our historic ally was a horrible mistake, we should never defend any moslem country since they themselves consider us to be their eternal enemy.

Yes, history was falsified in the Balkans in a big way. Let's not forget, by the way, the Muslim SS divisions set up in Bosnia and Kossovo. They were the Handschar [khanjar] amd Skanderbeg respectively.

They too killed Serbs, Jews, Gypsies, etc.

So Clinton and Wesley Clark [now with Obama?] lied big time about the Balkans. Now, in 2008, Condi Rice, the Republican sec'y of state for George II, falsifies the history of Jewish-Arab relations. Whereas in fact the Jews were subject to the humiliations of the dhimma by Arabs/Muslims, Condi tried to smear Israel as treating Arabs in the way Blacks were treated in the South.

Knowledge of history is the only way to defend against the mad predators. Thanks to the former officer above who wrote about W Clark.

Just in case anyone in the last thread wasn't perfectly clear where I stand on the Serbia-jihad issue, the reposting of my last message is below, (from the Sarajevo thread),

I appreciate your attempts to tell your side fo the story as well. I wasn't trying to suggest Serbs shouldn't tell their much ignored side of the story, just that in general all the sides on the Balkan conflicts, for their own securtiy more than anything else, need to start treating the conflcit as civilized adults and not like enraged children in a schoolyard fight.

If it's any comfort at all, I am fully agaisnt an indepedent Kosovo, especially under the malevolent leadership it currently has, and recognize that Serbia as a 100 % legal, ethical and historical claim to Kosovo. An independent Kosovo under Jihad friendly KLA would be quite possibly the biggest catastrophy to happed to Europe in the last 60 years, next to WWII. ANd anyone who says otherwise either does not udnerstand the nature of the KLA, who unlike Izetbegobitch's Bosnian gov't didn't even try to hide their Al Qaeda connections, or is in dire need of getting their head examined.

"The current Russian regime is sufficiently aggressive and irrational and criminal"

Quite true. However, US policymakers over the last 20 years cannot be excused for their part in all this. Once our last great president, Reagan helped bring an end to the Soviet regime, his suceesors have repeatedly provoked and humiliated Russia. We've learned nothing from history following the Treaty of Versailles. Post communism, there is no natural conflict between the two countries; au contraire both are threatened by resurgent Islam and by the rising power of China. Yet look what we have been doing. We've pushed Nato eastward toward Russia's borders, interfered in the politics of the Ukraine to the benefit of the horrible EU which is more of an enemy than Russia, we have belittled Russia's legitimate concerns with its own jihad threat, e.g. Chechnya and, worst of all was the criminal policy of Clinton and his cronies in dismembering Russia's traditional Serb ally.

So Russia now invades its neighbor to protect the rights of a province inhabited in large part by Russians. Now after what we have done in Kosovo what right do we have to object?

Large nations like the US, can't always worry about every small, ethnic conflict everywhere in the world. We have to keep a "big picture" view of things and worry about Russia, China and Islam (as a totality).

I'm undecided with respect to US actions regarding Kosovo, Serbia in the late 1990s. I'm more concerned with the present than ex-Yugoslavs ceaselessly arguing over what happened 10-15 years ago and what happened hundreds of years ago in that same region.

In a perfect world, I would not allow Muslim immigration into any Western nations. But is that likely to happen? Not likely. There are really no major political leaders in the West willing to reduce, much less stop Islamification of the West through immigration. Not likely gonna stop.

With what has been documented in Bosnia, Kosovo, and now Ossetia how are the ethnic Slavs (Russians) supposed view western influence? Just when does the Bear stop turning the other cheek? How can the Russians be expected to see their brothers and sisters subjugated and removed from their lands? This is what a relationship with the west has turned into for the Russians, and it is a long long history of hostile Crusaders ransacking Byzantium to a blind eye from the west as it called for help in the face of Jihad. No more I personally support the Russians in whatever they need to do to protect themselves from the many enemies they face. Mr. Bear is awake irrational and VERY pissed off. Go Go Go Mr. Bear :-)

In response to Hugh:
1. "North Ossetia is full of ethnic Russians, South Ossetia has Georgians, and there is as well a very small ethnic group called the "Ossetians"
Not quite. According to last census the Russians make up 23% of North Ossetia, the Ossetians 63%. In South Ossetia the last census from 1989 showed that 2/3 of the population were Ossetians. So the majority of both North and South Ossetia are ethnic Ossetians not Russians or Georgians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Ossetia-Alania
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia

2. There is a direct link between US actions in the Balkans and Russia’s in Caucasus. In 1999 a few months after Russia was humiliated by NATO takeover of Kosovo the Russians intervened in Chechnya. In 2008 a few months after the US recognition of Kosovo’s independence the Russians are in a conflict with Georgia claiming that because Georgia commits ethnic cleansing and genocide they have lost the right to rule over Ossetia - the same language that NATO used in Kosovo.

3. You were absolutely right about Iraq, but I believe you are wrong about Afghanistan. The western military presence in Afghanistan is a golden opportunity to expose Pakistan to the West for what it really is: a mortal enemy of not only India but of all infidels as it's (so far) the only islamic power with nuclear weapons. For 60 years the West has supported the nazis (Pakistan) against the good guys (India) as the pakistanis succeeded in fooling the naive western leaders to give them billions of dollars that financed their nuclear arsenal and terror against India. So staying in Afghanistan is important not because of Afghanistan, but because it leads to a direct conflict between the jihadists of Pakistan and NATO, hopefully ending with a US seizure of the pak nuclear weapons and the breakup of this islamist apartheid-state “the land of the pure”. And seizing paki’s nuclear weapons before they are used to wipe out the hindu civilization or transferred to jihadists that denotate them in a European city should be the number one priority of the infidel world. Even more important than preventing Iran from acquiring it’s nuclear weapons

"The western military presence in Afghanistan is a golden opportunity to expose Pakistan to the West for what it really is: a mortal enemy of not only India but of all infidels as it's (so far) the only islamic power with nuclear weapons."
-- from a posting above

With Gates now promising another $20 billion for Afghanistan's Muslim army, in addition to the tens of billions that have been or are being spent in that country, and with the strain, and the drain, on the American and NATO forces (remember how every few months the Americans request that other NATO members send another few hundred or few thousand troops, and how difficult, often impossible, it is to get them to do even that?), the idea that all of this is worth it because it provides "a golded opportunity to expose Pakistan to the West for what it really is" is an extraordinary statement. Is that how impossibly thick-skulled the Western leaders and publics are? Haven't we seen quite enough of Pakistan's meretriciousness? Isn't it by now obvioius that the I.S.I. was in up to its neck in A. Q. Khan's stealing of nuclear plans in the West, and then in all the rest of it, the building of the bombs, and the dissemination of knowhow elsewhere, in exchange for money?

And isn't it by now clear even to American generals that Pakistan, that "historic ally," is not -- and never was -- an "ally" of the United States, and never can be, because Islam, which rules the minds of those who rule, and those who are ruled, in Pakistan, inculcates permanent hostility toward the Infidels and the Americans, it turns out, are the most powerful of Infidels?

Do we all have to learn a lesson by remaining in Afghanistan, and continuing to bleed billions, as part of the economic war we are losing, and continuing to weaken our military, which we need now to repair, to build up, for things other than dealing with Islam, for as far as the Western world is concerned, the main weapons of Jihad are the Money Weapon, Da'wa, and demographic conquest.

The West has to stop giving Pakistan a cent, and threaten to destroy, as it has the power to destroy, Pakistan's economy by boycotting its goods. Pakistanis cannot count on the rich Arabs to come to their rescue; those rich Arabs come to the rescue not only of no non-Muslims, but only in the cause of outright invasion (as in Afghanistan) will they give just a bit, to any non-Arab Muslims.

And the West can allow India to buy whatever military equipment it thinks it needs to deal with Pakistan.

And in Afghanistan, keep the Sunni tribes threatening the Shi'a Hazara, keep the northern Uzbeks and Tadzhiks after the Pashtun, and allow the place to keep on as before, always ready to send some weaponry, or to bomb on behalf of now this side, and now of that, without further wasting Infidel lives and money with a large presence of Western troops and large infusions of Western cash. Keep that presence to a minimum. Reduce that cash flow to zero.

Interesting article on a complex issue. The struggle for Kosovo was clearly mishandled by the Clinton Administration, most notably Wesley Clark, who made some serious miscalculations that enabled the KLA (Kosovo Liberation Army) to declare a stragecic victory in Kosovo, a Serbian territory that is undeniably the cradle of Serbian culture.

The KLA has roots in Islamic terroism, drugs, and its primary benefactors was Bin Laden and Iran.

Read about it here:
http://www.antiwar.com/orig/deliso5.html

The U.S. support for an independent Kosovo is about increasing U.S. geopolitical influence and gaining closer access to oil.

The U.S. is spending billions of dollars investing in the AMBO pipeline. The AMBO acronym was given after its builder and operator the US-registered Albanian Macedonian Bulgarian Oil Corporation.

The pipeline will pump Caspian oil from the Bulgarian port of Burgas via Macedonia to the Albanian port of Vlora, for transport to European countries and the United States.

The 1.1 billion dollar AMBO pipeline will permit oil companies operating in the Caspian Sea to ship their oil to Rotterdam and the East Coast of the USA at substantially less cost than they are experiencing today.

Slated for operation by 2011, the pipeline will become a part of the region's critical East-West corridor infrastructure which includes highway, railway, gas and fiber optic telecommunications lines.

The pipeline will bring oil directly to the European market by eliminating tanker traffic through the ecologically sensitive waters of the Aegean and Mediterranean Seas.

Professor Michel Chossudovsky, author of America at War in Macedonia, provides a deep insight into the Albanian-Macedonian-Bulgarian-Oil Pipeline project:

The US based AMBO pipeline consortium is directly linked to the seat of political and military power in the United States and Vice President Dick Cheney's firm Halliburton Energy. The feasibility study for AMBO's Trans-Balkan Oil Pipeline, conducted by the international engineering company of Brown & Root Ltd. [Halliburton's British subsidiary] has determined that this pipeline will become a part of the region's critical East-West corridor infrastructure which includes highway, railway, gas and fibre optic telecommunications lines.

Coincidentally, White and Case LLT, the New York law firm that President William J. Clinton joined when he left the White House also has a stake in the AMBO pipeline deal.

Read about it here:
http://fsi-institute.blogspot.com/2008/03/ambo-pipeline-reason-for-us-interest-in.html

"a brand of Islam quite different from the relaxed, syncretistic local version (not exactly full-bodied Islam in practice, because that local practice was affected by the centuries of proximity to non-Muslims, and to the effect of Communism"

This seems to make it sound like the Muslims were "really" and not just superficially not full-bodied.I think it's more likely the Muslims in the Balkans like anywhere else where you can find Muslims seeming to get along, have only seemed to be mild due to externally imposed conditions of temporary weakness not due to anything special about their brand of Islam.

What I meant to say above is that the statement seems to say that the Balkan Muslims just organically became milder through the ozone of being in proximity to non-Muslims, rather than found themselves in a situation lasting a couple of centuries after loss of Ottoman control plus rule of dictator Tito--making them unable by force to be "real" Muslims.

I have posted prevously that blame can be fairly spread around in the whole Yugoslavia break-up from 1991 onwards. Some will side with the Serbs more. Others will present viewpoints that are more critical of the Serbs' role in this modern tragedy. I'm not posting here now to rehash all this.

I wish to make a comment about the American bombing of Serbia in 1999. It's this: America did what it did because eight years of massive instability was beginning to worry most all of Europe. No one was taking charge and things were a mess. America under Bush 41 and then Clinton told the Europeans, hey, this is your problem. Handle it. Well, they didn't. Nor did the UN. Nor did the Russians. So, America went and bombed Serbia in 1999 to send a message to everyone. The bombing ended the acute stage of the Yugoslav break-up. Period. Things have been less than savory since then to be sure but not on the order of what was occurring in the 1990s.

No one did anything of value to stop the bleeding from 1991-1999. And I'm not interested in where blame belongs. It can be shared between all ethnicities in former Yugoslavia, only the percentage allotment is where reasonable minds can differ. And yes, other ethnic gorups outside of Yugoslavia can be blamed too. How easy it is, though, to blame America when no other nation or people did didly squat to stop ongoing tragedy of the first dimension (again, by many, not just one ethnicity). The bombing, unfortunate and regrettable as it was, ended the worst stage of the Yugoslav dissolution.

And there was another reason America went in and that was because of NATO. Germans, Dutch, Brits and others told the Americans that this alliance was looking real bad just watching what was happening in the Balkans year after year in the Nineties. Reminds me of what Dean Acheson said to someone when Truman decided to go into Korea. Why, this person inquired of Acheson, is America going into Korea. Acheson icily responded, "NATO, of course." Well, if European allies had to be reassured that America would stand by them only if America stopped aggression in Asia, just think how much assurance these same European countries needed from America that instability in Europe itself would also be handled by America. Thus is the price of being the great power. America was in a damn if you do, damn if you don't situation. This seems lost on a lot of people.

All of you haters need to realize that the poor moslems were caught up in a strife between radical Christian sects. Geez!

/moonbat mode off

When Clinton ordered the bombing of the Serbs, had he heard, ever, about the devshirme?

Did he know that Izetbegovic had written about imposing the Sharia? No, of course not.

But had he, and had others, they might have reassured the Serbs long before, and helped to make them less panicky, less prone to give power to someone like Milosevic.

Clinton was too busy trying to get his cigars lit in the Oval Office to care about such issues that require deeper insights.

In fact, the US is still trying to pursue Serbian "war criminals" to be brought before the International Criminal Court for two reasons.

1. I believe the US wants to create and give "credibility" to a previously non-existant court that it mistakenly believes it can control.

2. The people in control of Washington believe that by giving the saudis a firm foot-hold in EU that somehow they can control islam to the extent that the elites will be untouched.

Finally, if the Serbs think for one minute that by turning over "war criminals" as they have recently that it will expedite their EU entry; I believe they are sadly mistaken.

The Serbs will be stabbed in the back again because the economic sanctions will not be lifted since doing so will betray the US loyalty to the house of saud -- and American "leaders" won't stand for it!

The majority of the American people unfortuantely are too fat and too stupid to really "get it" anyway. As long as they have games, yellow ribbons, and plastic flags to wave during parades while their kids have mp3 players stuffed into their ears -- nothing whatsoever is going to change.

Wellington,

It is not completely true. The worst stage of Yugoslav wars was Bosnia before Dayton agreement. By the end of Bosnian war, dissolution of Yugoslavia was over. There was no need "to send a message" to anyone.

Kosovo 1998-99 was a low scale conflict between Serbian security forces and KLA terrorists. In 1999, KLA terrorists were almost completely defeated with minimum civilian casualties. There was no reason whatsoever for the USA to enter this conflict, especially not to take sides.

I know you feel the need to explain this somehow as "moral act", but there's no explanation - the USA was simply wrong. Clinton was morally wrong and attacked Serbia (which posed no threat to the USA), meanwhile supporting real American enemies and I think he is the most responsible for setting a stage for what happen later - 9/11 and raise of Jihad. Serbia was an American ally in every single instance where our paths crossed (http://www.gregoryafreeman.com/500.html).

Only reason for NATO bombing was this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_Bondsteel

There was no reason whatsoever for the USA to enter this conflict, especially not to take sides.

You fail to understand American foreign policy; there was every reason to enter the conflict and to take sides.

The reasons had nothing to do with morality. "Morality" issues were for public consumption so that the media people could keep the public's mind busy with nonesense so that the people in Washington (Clark, Albright, Clinton, et al) and in London (Blair, Straw, and all their ilk) could press ahead with their agenda.

Western foreign policy has no concern for any kind of morality except where they can either confuse the public (in America -- so easy to do) or to obfuscate reality.

Understand this -- the Serbs were thrown under the bus intentionally because it was the goal of the Western leadership to establish an islamic state in the heart of Europe that the Western leaders believed (and still believe) they can manage.

Still unclear?

Let me restate the matter for you then; the Serbs were sacrificed on the alter of PC/Multiculturalism to appease the more material concerns with the house of saud.

There is nothing the Serbs could have done at the time, or can do now, other than to simple roll over and simply die.

The other big problem with the Serbs is that they were an icon of Christian civilization that Western leaders are bent on destroying at all costs.

I am not a Christian nor am I a Serb but I am very clear on the facts -- such as the market blast that was planted by the KLA and set to go off killing many "kosovar people" while the media waited for the signal to record -- it was of course blamed on the Serbs which was a total lie.

I also know about the Serbian civilian areas which were "re-defined" as military targets that included schools, hospitals, pedestrian laden bridges, and television stations.

Lets not forget about the cluster bombs that were dropped in Belgrade or those odd munitions dropped over the farmland areas near the Hungarian border that killed all the vegetation -- now ask yourself why are the cancer rates in Serbia so high today?

Do I exaggerate?

If my facts are not correct on these specific points, by all means enlighten me to the truth.

So, ethoman, I guess you're all in favor of Mr. Bear bombing Georgian civilians, and cutting off Western oil pipelines?

Hugh,

You are absolutely right.

Ruslan Tokhchukov,EnragedSince1999.

LazarOfSerbia: Again, thanks for your response. I think by now you know I don't have any anti-Serb agenda. I may criticize the Serbs more than you think is warranted but that is something different. But I'd like to make threee points and you can dispute them if you like.

One, the trouble in Kosovo was the last straw, not necessarily the worst episode in the Nineties. Two, if America had done nothing (and I assure you many others would have accused America of callousness if America had chosen this course----I'm hoping you appreciate that what I wrote above about the US being damned if it acted and damned if it didn't is true), I think it far more likely that far more people (from numerous ethnicities) would have died between 1999 to the present. Again, America's action ended the acute stage of the break-up. Three, Camp Bondsteel was hardly the sole reason. The whole NATO alliance was perceived to be in some jeopardy by many alliance members.

By the way, I think my country has erred in supporting an independent Kosovo. And as I wrote in a previous post, I do believe the Serbs were set up as the fall guy, though Milosevic, Karadzic and Mladic made it much easier to do so. Ah, the whole damn thing is tragic.

Wellington,

If the US had good reasons for its Balkan policies in the 90s, well then we just have to be prepared to pay the price. Russia now has perfect justification to aid "persecuted" Russians and other minorities on its periphery and we no longer can claim any moral right to complain. Russia is also perfectly justified to help Muslims in Iran who are no immediate threat to them in the same way as we helped Muslims in Europe who were not an immediate threat to us - only to the Orthodox peoples of eastern Europe. And, of course, it is essential for us to shore up the NATO alliance, after all look at all the help we have been getting from NATO and the EU.

Ruslan--

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOnU-TRRmSE

Wellington,

Thank you for being patient in this conversation.

1) Kosovo was absolutely internal issue of Yugoslavia/Serbia. Our security forces were dealing with armed terrorist gangs as would any other civilized country in the world. In fact, in two years of conflict with the terrorists we had less civilian casualties than FBI in one day in Waco Texas. We were much more civilized than some other countries would be in similar situation.

2) America should respect the international law and do not interfere with internal issues of other souvereign states. And much less people would have died because KLA was already on its knees. It was a matter of days until all KLA terrorist would have been captured and put on trial. Now narco dealers are "presidents" and "prime ministers", thank's to Bill Clinton and Madeleine Albright.

3) I agree that Bonsteel was not the sole reason, but can't see how NATO was in "jeopardy"?

Milosevic, Karadzic and Mladic were not worse than their counterparts in other republics.

RBLA: You are prepared to create a morally level playing field between the Russians and the Americans. The former have never been in the vanguard of protecting and promoting freedom. The latter have------in spades. Russians have several virtues but an understading of what freedom really means is not one of them. In fact, in this respect they are retarded.

What America did in the Balkans in 1999 was not meant first and foremost to extend American power. It's already extended to lengths never before seen in history. Hey, why be redundant? America didn't even want to get involve and did not do so for many years in the Nineties, not until mediocre nations who castigate the great power got real worried like that Balkan instability could spread outside of the Balkans and disrupt their social programs and way of life. Thus the Lone Ranger was called to duty.

Russia, by contrast, is still pursuing crude implementations of power politics----for the sake of power. Nowhere does Russia seek to advance the cause of freedom. Hell, Russia doesn't even understand freedom. But most everywhere the American soldier, sailor and aviator goes, freedom, or at least an attempt at freedom, follows in his wake. Surely you can see this. There is no quid pro quo between what America did in 1999 in the Balkans (even assuming it was wrong, which I don't believe it was) and what Russians are doing now in Georgia, never mind the aiding and abetting of Iranian hegemonic goals in the Middle East. Russia, though a thousand years old, is still not ready to be a major contributor to mankind's best interests. America, by contrast, was born ready.

LazarOfSerbia: I will take into consideration all that you have said. I would only add that having a melt-down in the Balkans right next to NATO nations was in and of itself considered a destabilizing phenomenon by many NATO members. Many of these member nations also worried about a mass exodus of refugees from former Yugoslavia into their respective countries.

But thank you again for your input. It is a valuable one. Take care.

Poor Serbia and the Serbian people. Through history, a wounded nation.

Still it is nice to see Hugh F on JW, showing the true victims in the tragedy of ex-Yugoslavia.

Milosevic was to the anti-Jihad as Joseph McCarthy was to anti-Communism. Both of them abused their mandates and the public trust to do great harm to both great causes.

Thanks Wellington for nice discussion.

I have deep respect for the USA and the principles upon which it is built by founding fathers, but I think what Clinton did in the Balkans was completely opposite to these great principles of "liberty and justice for all". I am sure George Washington was turning in his grave in 1999.

TalkinKamel

Well I understand the frustration that the Slavs must have against many western policies towards their interests. I understand that our Muslim allies in Kosovo and Bosnia are just as guilty of any attrocity you would like to point your finger at the Slavs for. I understand that when all things were equal and the "chips" were down we chose to abandon our historical ally for that of the 3rd Riech and Islamofascism. I understand that our Georgian allies were purging, and subjugating Slavs from their lands, which wanted autonomy. I understand that the Slavs should protect themselves, and if that is against me or my "allies" then yeah I am "for" it, if our policies are stupid and misguided. In the case of Georgia I understand that it is a Christian nation, so that is troubling, but at what point does a cornered animal not fight back if it can? It doesn't matter what I am for or not for. What are you "for" Camel? I ask you this. Why should the Slavs or Russians trust us or any allies we have, any more than they would trust the Muslims we so love to ally with against them? Confusing I know, but simple really Georgian, Kosovar Muslim, or Turk take your pick.

In my last post I wrote about the AMBO pipeline which will allow the west to have easier access to oil from the Caspian without having to rely on Russian pipelines.

I wrote about the AMBO pipeline because it is directly related to what the Russians are attempting to accomplish in Georgia.

By invading Ossetia in Georgia, Russia is attempting to thrawt the U.S. and Europe's access to oil from the Caspian and wield greater control and power in the region to counterbalance the west's ambitions.

Read about the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan (BTC) pipeline, a major international oil route that runs through Georgia. The oil has stopped flowing.

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5gVEVAFFG3fCTHSyXJtrW3C6quvWQ

The Pipeline War: Russian bear goes for West's jugular

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1043185/The-Pipeline-War-Russian-bear-goes-Wests-jugular.html

I'm still waiting for witness to provide a citation for his claim that the BTC pipeline is an Israeli concern.

Russia, like any other powerful nation, will grow its influence as large as it can. This has nothing to do with Big Bad Clinton and the Poor Little Russian Ego and everything to do with a threat to regional hegemony (and, hey, oil!)

I'm interested in any evidence that might refute the occurrence of such atrocities as the Foca massacres. Or is the argument that the other side was that much worse centuries before?

It's a pity we're unable to edit our posts. Is the fighting in the Bosnian war of 92-95 considered wholly separate from the fighting later in the decade? My late 90s history is rusty.

Wellington,

Is the US better than Russia? Absolutely! America is a very special nation and those on the left who are always dumping on it simply have no idea what we have here. However, the very compassion and generosity exhibited by the American people can often be exploited by sinister interests. Simply stated the hype against Serbia was a public relations campaign bought and paid for by Arab oil money. Does that mean that the Serbs were "nice guys"? No, they were bad actors like the other factions, Croats, Bosnians, Kosovars, in that tragedy.

Was the situation such as to warrant American military intervention? No. If such was required it should have been done by the sheltered Europeans who have erected elaborate welfare states in lieu of taking care of their own security. Well why should they when Uncle Sap is always ready to expend treasure on their behalf? Also note that the criminal policy of Clinton/Albright/Clark was one of incessant pounding from the air - Bill was not about to risk his standing in the opinion polls. Contrast that to Bush - however misguided his Iraq policies were, at least he made an attempt to minimize civilian casualties by putting American troops at risk.

Finally, is there any rhyme or reason for constantly baiting the bear - pushing NATO eastward into once Russian territory, warring against Russia's traditional Serb allies, expanding the power of the anti Israeli dhimmi EU at the expense of Russia, failing to support Russia's own struggle against jihad? OK we did all these things and maybe in some sense that escapes me they were the right actions. But actions have consequences and we are seeing them in Russia's assistance to Iran and now in Georgia - what did we expect? And what are we supposed to do now - war with Russia is a different kettle of fish from one with Serbia.

In any event, I appreciate the discussion. It's a quarrel within the familiy; we all know who the real enemy is at this time.

"Does that mean that the Serbs were "nice guys"? No, they were bad actors like the other factions, Croats, Bosnians, Kosovars, in that tragedy."

All the bad people are equally bad and all the good people are equally good. Thanks, that makes current events so much simpler to understand!

RBLA: Thanks for your response. Yes, a quarrel within the family indeed (except for Naseem/hindenberg). I only wish the Russians "got" freedom more. They're courageous and have a tremendous artistic tradition but they have a real problem with freedom. Well, back to the chief fight at hand. Take care.

Wake up Europe this is the same fate that awaits if islam succeeds.

http://www.kosovo.net/news_pogrom.html

Okay, I understand. Because we made mistakes in the past, and because (according to you) the Georgians were mean to the Slavs in the past, it's now okay for Russia to move in on on another country and bomb its civilian population into popcorn, and take over the oil pipeline for itself.

Gotcha. Makes perfect sense. Not.

(By the way, as I recall, we actually stuck by Russia in WWII, and didn't turn them over to the Third Reich. In return, they stabbed us in the back, and grabbed up Eastern Europe.)

(Me, I'm for freedom. What are you for? Dizinformatzia, eh Comrade?)

It is very sad that Russia thinks that it takes revenge for Kosovo by bombing another Christian people,the Georgeans.
But from the legal point of view the South Ossetia case is identical with the Kosovo case.
According to the Helsinki Final Act the borders of Europe must not change.Minorities have the right of internal autonomy but not independence.
By recognizing an independent Kosovo the West violated this Act saying that this is a unique case.
And who are these who judge which case is unique?
Russians decided that unique case is also South Ossetia.
And if Georgia deserves to maintain its territorial integrity,so Serbia also deserves it.

I'm still waiting for witness to provide a citation for his claim that the BTC pipeline is an Israeli concern.

Hope this helps.

http://debka.com/article.php?aid=1358

Israel backs Georgia in Caspian Oil Pipeline Battle with Russia

DEBKAfile Exclusive Report

August 8, 2008

Georgian tanks and infantry, aided by Israeli military advisers, captured the capital of breakaway South Ossetia, Tskhinvali, early Friday, Aug. 8, bringing the Georgian-Russian conflict over the province to a military climax.

Russian prime minister Vladimir Putin threatened a “military response.”

Former Soviet Georgia called up its military reserves after Russian warplanes bombed its new positions in the renegade province.

In Moscow’s first response to the fall of Tskhinvali, president Dimitry Medvedev ordered the Russian army to prepare for a national emergency after calling the UN Security Council into emergency session early Friday.

Reinforcements were rushed to the Russian “peacekeeping force” present in the region to support the separatists.

Georgian tanks entered the capital after heavy overnight heavy aerial strikes, in which dozens of people were killed.

Lado Gurgenidze, Georgia's prime minister, said on Friday that Georgia will continue its military operation in South Ossetia until a "durable peace" is reached. "As soon as a durable peace takes hold we need to move forward with dialogue and peaceful negotiations."

DEBKAfile’s geopolitical experts note that on the surface level, the Russians are backing the separatists of S. Ossetia and neighboring Abkhazia as payback for the strengthening of American influence in tiny Georgia and its 4.5 million inhabitants. However, more immediately, the conflict has been sparked by the race for control over the pipelines carrying oil and gas out of the Caspian region.

The Russians may just bear with the pro-US Georgian president Mikhail Saakashvili’s ambition to bring his country into NATO. But they draw a heavy line against his plans and those of Western oil companies, including Israeli firms, to route the oil routes from Azerbaijan and the gas lines from Turkmenistan, which transit Georgia, through Turkey instead of hooking them up to Russian pipelines.

Saakashvili need only back away from this plan for Moscow to ditch the two provinces’ revolt against Tbilisi. As long as he sticks to his guns, South Ossetia and Abkhazia will wage separatist wars.

DEBKAfile discloses Israel’s interest in the conflict from its exclusive military sources:

Jerusalem owns a strong interest in Caspian oil and gas pipelines reach the Turkish terminal port of Ceyhan, rather than the Russian network. Intense negotiations are afoot between Israel Turkey, Georgia, Turkmenistan and Azarbaijan for pipelines to reach Turkey and thence to Israel’s oil terminal at Ashkelon and on to its Red Sea port of Eilat. From there, supertankers can carry the gas and oil to the Far East through the Indian Ocean.

Aware of Moscow’s sensitivity on the oil question, Israel offered Russia a stake in the project but was rejected.

Last year, the Georgian president commissioned from private Israeli security firms several hundred military advisers, estimated at up to 1,000, to train the Georgian armed forces in commando, air, sea, armored and artillery combat tactics. They also offer instruction on military intelligence and security for the central regime. Tbilisi also purchased weapons, intelligence and electronic warfare systems from Israel.

These advisers were undoubtedly deeply involved in the Georgian army’s preparations to conquer the South Ossetian capital Friday.

In recent weeks, Moscow has repeatedly demanded that Jerusalem halt its military assistance to Georgia, finally threatening a crisis in bilateral relations. Israel responded by saying that the only assistance rendered Tbilisi was “defensive.”

This has not gone down well in the Kremlin. Therefore, as the military crisis intensifies in South Ossetia, Moscow may be expected to punish Israel for its intervention.

it's not about Kosovo, it's not about the Serbs, or the Ossetians.

It's about the oil, and Russia's desire to be an empire again, and attack Israel and the West.

it's not about Kosovo, it's not about the Serbs, or the Ossetians.

It's about the oil, and Russia's desire to be an empire again, and attack Israel and the West.

Posted by: TalkinKamel at August 11, 2008 2:40 PM

Perhaps the equation simplifies even further to the one never ending constant in the universe?

Human nature; human greed.

witness:

Again, the Baku, Tblisi, Ceyhan (BTC)oil pipeline is owned as follows (from wikipedia and BP website):

# BP (United Kingdom): 30.1%
# State Oil Company of Azerbaijan (SOCAR) (Azerbaijan): 25.00%
# Chevron (USA): 8.90%
# StatoilHydro (Norway): 8.71%
# Türkiye Petrolleri Anonim Ortaklığı (TPAO) (Turkey): 6.53%
# Eni/Agip (Italy): 5.00%
# Total (France): 5.0%
# Itochu (Japan): 3.4%
# Inpex (Japan): 2.50%
# ConocoPhillips (USA): 2.50%
# Hess Corporation (USA) 2.36%

(Amerada Hess renamed itself Hess Corporation last year)

http://www.bp.com/managedlistingsection.do?categoryId=9007998&contentId=7015010

A Natural Gas Pipeline running alongside, for part of its length, is the South Caucasus Pipeline (also: Baku-Tbilisi-Erzurum Pipeline, BTE pipeline or Shah-Deniz Pipeline) That is owned by (from wikipedia):

* BP (UK) 25.5 %
* StatoilHydro (Norway) 25.5 %
* State Oil Company of Azerbaijan (SOCAR) (Azerbaijan) 10 %
* LukAgip,a joint company of Lukoil and Eni (Russia/Italy) 10 %
* TotalFinaElf (France) 10 %
* Oil Industries Engineering and Construction (OIEC) (Iran) 10 %
* Türkiye Petrolleri Anonim Ortaklığı (TPAO) (Turkey) 9 %

http://www.bp.com/managedlistingsection.do?categoryId=9007999&contentId=7015015

note that one of these companies is Lukoil, a Russian (non-state) firm, which is a partial competitor of Gazprom, a Russian state controlled company.

Israeli firms own none of these pipelines. What debkafile (not exactly an all-knowing group, but some, or even many, of their rumors are correct) refers to is a plan to further transport some of the oil from Ceyhan to Israel and then the far east.

If your comment's intent is to point out that the Russian aggression in Georgia is motivated by its desire to control energy pipelines to Europe and other markets, I would agree with you. However, if your desire is to blame the jooooz, it is difficult to see you as other than a disingenuous propagandist.

TalkinKamel
First of all be carefull what you hear from our media. I know what you see looks bad, but remember what we were fed in the 90's about the Serbs. I wouldn't take any of this at face value.

http://osetian.com/index.html

It appears that our ally attacked first, and if they have been "cleansing" ethnic Slavs that is bad, and if we back them after doing that it is worse.

The problem is not only what is happening but what the Russian population believes.
During the Cold War many Russians did not believe their government.The Kosovo crisis was fundamental because after this incident the West lost its credibility in the Russian population which is an important fact.
The open attack of an Orthodox Christian population for the sake of Muslims by the West was without precedent.
Look how Russian media present the situation.
http://www.itar-tass.com/eng/level2.html?NewsID=12948146
When Condoleezza Rice visited Russian dissidents everybody,even the most pro-Western told her not to recognize Kosovo,because that it would be a p.r. disaster for US reputation in the Russian people.
She ignored them.
History will write that the first expansion of dar-al-islam in Europe in the 21st century was made possible by bombing of US Air Force.

TalkinKamel
How are the Russians supposed to take all of this in light of how we have mismanaged the protection that should be afforded the Serbs of Kosovo? Instead we turn a blind eye to what is happening there. If I were a Slav I'd honestly have to think that America wasn't our friend. http://www.kosovo.net/news_pogrom.html. In light of the documented ethnic cleansing of the Serbs in Kosovo on our watch shouldn't we at least LISTEN to what the Russians are saying this time about Ossetia before we jump to conclusions? I have looked at both stories and I honestly think we need to listen to what the Russians are saying. It looks like the Slavs of Ossetia were attacked. Cleansing again on our watch by our allies against them. From a Russian perspective we are decidedly unfriendly. In light of things this looks like restraint from the Russians.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vbi1okP8ERo

Russian news on the subject.

ethoman,

Ossetians are not ethnic Slavs. They are Sarmatian or Scythian. Many of them have been russified, taking Russian names, and have been given Russian Federation citizenship by Putin's regime in order to provide a pretext for Russian intervention in Georgia. Considering that Georgia was part of the Soviet Union, it is quite likely that some (Slavic) Russians did move, or were moved, into Georgia and Ossetia during Soviet rule, however. I can't give you any figures on that.

del

This thing has been pretty hard to follow, and to be truthfull I'm trying to learn about what is happening, as honestly as I can. I assumed Slav when I read and heard "ethnic Russians"

Watch what this American has to say who was there. Why can't he be heard in our media?

http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=yCwTo9AdT2c

Honestly why?

Ya know, ethoman, if this thing is hard to follow, and it turns out that Ossetians really aren't Russians, maybe you ought to try studying, and thinking about the situation, before mindlessly peddling Russian propaganda? (Ahh, dizinformatzia can be difficult sometimes, yes comrade?)

I don't believe Russia cares about Kosovo or the Serbs. Why should I? Takes a look at its own history. Does it even care about its own people? (Can you say "Gulag?" I knew you could!) It let Kosovo be bombed, without lifting a finger.

And I don't care what the Russians might have to say about the situation. Whatever the rights or wrongs of the past, now they're bombing and killing civilians. That's wrong. And I don't care what they're feeling right now.

Considering the misery Russia helped create throughout the 20th Century, up to and including fomenting civil wars, their tyranny over Eastern Europe, selling nuclear material to Iran, sponsoring terrorist groups such as the PLO, and now attacking a small nation (and its oil supply) guess what? I don't give a damn about Russia's alleged hurt feelings. They can go cry on the UN's shoulder (it's been their puppet before, and doubtless will be again.)

From an American perspective, Russians are unfriendly.

However, if your desire is to blame the jooooz, it is difficult to see you as other than a disingenuous propagandist.

Posted by: del at August 11, 2008 2:57 PM

I have never been listed as "anti-Israeli" and I have no desire to assign "blame" in this case.

I merely point out that there is now in play a more or less open military conflict between the competeing interests of Russia and Israel that revolve around the oil and gas pipelines.

You can call me any name you want -- frankly, I don't give a damn. I've been to hell and back on more than one occasion and childish "name calling" games mean nothing to me anymore.

Finally, wikipedia and debka are no more reliable in their content is cnn or fox; content is only as reliable as the sources.

Make of that what you will.

TalkinKamel

"I don't believe Russia cares about Kosovo or the Serbs."

Are you serious about that? I don't even know where we go from there.

"It let Kosovo be bombed, without lifting a finger."

During the Clinton administration the Russians were broke millitarily, and economically. They tried to stop the carnage we wrought against the Serbs through the U.N. The Russians were in no position to do anything at the time, but things are different now. Russia never just "let" us bomb their ally, it was in no position to respond. I do however agree that a lot of this is over the controll and flow of oil into the Black sea. The Russians now controll Europs oil spigot. Looks like we now get to see what the Russians care about, as I'm sure we'll have to sit by handwringing and 'crying" on the U.N.'s should as our allies get bombed this time, like the Russians did during the Clinton era. It is a terrible game to play with one another as the Islamists grow in strength. History is repeating itself. The major western powers of the world at eachothers necks squabling over $$$$ while Islamic forces multiply and coalesce, and gain in realative strength.

witness,

I'm not looking for a pissing match. Actually, I figured someone else had posted this, using the nametag you usually use, as i didn't (and don't) recall that you had ever previously looked to throw Israel in as an "explanation" when bad things happen.

I agree that content is as reliable as the sources. Go to BPdotcom. British Petroleum is the largest owner and operator.

Israel is a side player here. This is about Russian intimidation of all ex-Soviet republics and western Europe, and to some extent everyone else as well. It is another example of Putin's installation of an on/off valve on energy pipelines. He played his valves in 2006/2007 with Belarus and Ukraine (and Germany and Poland as they had their supplies cut when Belarus and Ukraine did not follow the Bear's directions).

The best way to deal with Russia on this, long term, is to become energy independent. This is another reason beside islam and jihad, for Europe and the US and others, to develop and implement technologies which replace petroleum and natural gas.

Heh, heh. . . ethoman gets a clue! Yes, it is, indeed, the oil, as reports from the U.K. Telepgraph, and Daily Mail confirm.

Etho, oil is what the Russians care about. Oil, oil, and more oil, and trying to regain their former Soviet empire. The Russians care about power. They don't care about the Ossetians. They don't care about the Serbs, the Slavs, or whoever. As for Islamic forces. . . er, who do you think was giving radical Islam a helping bear paw all these years? Who backed the PLO, and the crazier Islamic tyrannies? Who's helping Iran get nukes? Nice try, but I think we can keep an eye both on Russia and Islam. Dizinformatzia (sigh), I realize it's hard sometimes, comrade.

The best way to deal with Russia on this, long term, is to become energy independent. This is another reason beside islam and jihad, for Europe and the US and others, to develop and implement technologies which replace petroleum and natural gas.

Posted by: del at August 11, 2008 8:39 PM

I agree with this entirely. I would trust Russia and China about as far as I could toss an M1 Abrams tank; and believe you me -- that ain't very far.

Oxidize (combust -- burn) hydrogen and you can run any SUV on the road. 2H2 + 02 ---> 2H20 or something like that; the interesting part is the efficient production of H2 -- accomplish this (electralysis of water -- 9V battery in a salt/water solution for instance) and we can kiss the house of saud good-bye.

It can be done; it must be done; and it will be done hopefully the sooner the better.

BTW, I found this interesting:

http://worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=72087

The article opins about how the Russian move against Georgia has less to do with gas lines than it does with Kosovo.

Worth considering if I do say so myself.

WND is hardly a source of record.

How interesting that Russia, when threatened by the potential of an Islamic state in Kosovo, chooses to attack a pro-Western neighbor with strategically vital petroleum pipelines. Perhaps they will next fight the Mohammedan threat with a massed jump into the Ukrainian oil fields?

I agree about hydrogen. That is the transportation fuel of a sane future, as long as batteries are a problem. How about floating solar powered pods, here and there, offshore, to produce electricity and hydrogen? Instead of some salmon pens?

Thank you for the WND article, which is of course read with some salt handy, but seems to put Ukraine on the hook instead of Israel.

But really, the Georgians aren't puppets. They did what they wanted (tried to retake South Ossetia by force), and miscalculated badly in expecting Putin to acquiesce. Then again, the actions of Georgia are justified, if one believes that sovereign countries have a right of self defense. And then again, not justified, if one believes that a separatist minority has a right to self-determination, when a majority in some part of a larger country. Its a mess.

Here are a couple of other background articles about Georgia and South Ossetia. The first is from Michael Totten, the second is from LGF:

Travels in the Former Soviet Union
from: Joshua Kucera
http://www.slate.com/id/2191588/entry/2191589/

Special Extra — EDITORIAL: The Facts on Georgia
August 11, 2008
EDITORIAL
The Facts on Georgia
http://larussophobe.wordpress.com/2008/08/11/special-extra-%E2%80%94-editorial-the-facts-on-georgia/

I'm not claiming that either article is perfect.

I know that I am going to fundamentally be opposed to majority of you.

I hold Russians very dear to my heart and I hold US and UK and their coward allies from NATO very far.

I always considered that in Europe there are those who are for and against everything human being should stand for. I thought that the millions of allied sons who died fighting Germans and their enslaver friends died so that the lessons would be learned - but these days I have seen that nobody in the West can be trusted. US and UK have disregarded those who died with on the same side for the sake of those who they died fighting against.

US and UK have allies in NATO, allies who left you by yourselves, who have no honour, who are cowards - and you still hold these allies close to your heart and the peoples who through the history fought on the same side with you - you hold against you.

To me as a Serb - only Orthodoxy remains - and if we need to go to war - we will be shooting at each others - because I for one, will not be with you and I am not with you on this matter.

Russia has done an evil thing only so far that it attacked another Orthodox state - and Georgia has done the same by attacking Orthodox people.

As far as imperialism is concerned - who is anyone in the West to speak about it? The West has built Western civilisation by stealing from others.

As far as politics are concerned - Russians did not do anything that Your glorious democratic and freedom loving governments have not done since the start of the time.

War will come. Good luck to you US and UK - you have brave Europeans on your side.

xristos.anesti,

You may not have read Jihadwatch for long, as many of the readers here are sympathetic to Serbia and unhappy with our (in my case USA) governments' actions in Serbia and Kosovo. Some are also unhappy with Russian actions in Georgia and South Ossetia. The analogy is not exact, however, in an important way: the place of islam, in, or out of, the conflict.

You write, "War will come." War is already here, and has been for 1400 years, although the open combat has waned and waxed. Its called "jihad", and the targets of those who profess islam and jihad include both "the West" and the Orthodox Christians, as well as Hindus, Buddhists, Animists, Pagans, and anyone who does not submit to islam. Your focus on US, UK, Nato is understandable but shortsighted. US, UK and Nato, notwithstanding stupidity in Yugoslavia and Kosovo (and note that Serbia and Serbians are not themselves angelic) do not have a goal of obliterating Serbia, and Orthodox Christianity. It may, or not, amaze you (it amazes me that an Orthodox Christian, yourself, is more focused on the west than on those who destroyed Constantinople) but real jihadis, and any truly pious muslims, do have that goal.

xristos.anesti,

I am hugely disapointed in my nations deeds realative to your country. If you nuked one of our cites tommarow. I'd understand. What I don't understand though is how people do not see the hypocracy here. It is okay for the US to bomb the Serbs when the Russians ask us not to, it is okay for us to break away your territory and build a Muslim nation out of it inspite of the Russians asking us not to. We now think we can ask the Russians to stop attacking for this reason or that, and we expect them to listen to our demands. As far as breaking away Ossetia is concerned diplomatically how do we do that without looking like fools with Kosovo hanging over our heads. It is so stupid it is beyond explanation, and when you bring it up often times you get attacked. I don't understand. Never will till the day I die no matter how often I'm insulted and called "comrad".

ethoman,

I did not intend to insult you. My comment about Ossetian ethnicity as non-Slavic was a statement of fact, not derision toward you. Like you, I was and am unhappy with our (USA) bombing of Serbia and pushing forward an independent Kosovo. Nevertheless, Putin's Russia has displayed itself to be unfriendly (see Iraq UN sanctions (non)renewal prior to removal of saddam, see pipeline closures to Belarus, Ukraine and Europe...). Why is there some necessity to take a Russian viewpoint if one supports Serbia?

del
You were correct, and I wasn't talking about you. Essentially we agree. My point is that I do not think most Americans know how badly Kosovo has hurt us, as far as Russian policy is concerned, and how badly it has hurt us in the eyes of the Russian/Slavic people. Just browse their blogs and see what they sey about it. To this is all about oil is just too narrow for me.

sorry for the typo's trying to work and type.

"To me as a Serb - only Orthodoxy remains - and if we need to go to war - we will be shooting at each others - because I for one, will not be with you and I am not with you on this matter."

I will tell you why I am with the Russians now. First of here is my wish list.

1- That we are so humiliated in Georgia, and weakened that Russia will think it can oppose us in Kosovo.

2-I hope Russia will use all of their European oil revenue to arm Serbia with the best anti-air defences that it can provide.

3- I hope then they arm the Serbs with the best infantry weapons and advisors available.

4- I hope the Serbs and their Russian allies move us out of that nice military base Camp Bondsteel and use it as a platform to retake Kosovo.

5- Then I hope all of the idiots in Washington look at eachother in a sort of dumbfounded quisical way that would properly denote their infinite stupidity.

"And these two histories that are vivid in Serbian imaginations, the recent one of German and Ustashe massacres, and the much older, much longer one of oppression and massacre by the Ottoman Turks. These were enough to terrify Serbs into supporting certain leaders whom, had they not been so terrified, they would never have followed."

I too am horrified by what the Catholic Italians did to my family in 1939 so I will rape and kill any Filipino I find, they are Catholic.
Btw: Why shouldn't black people just kill any white person they see? See here what memories Albanians have from Serbs:

http://www.seep.ceu.hu/archives/issue61/herbert.pdf
(page 6 and down a nice summary of killings, rapes and expulsions since 1878 backed by scholarly sources)

You go through great pains to justify the genocidal Serbs, even if it means ruining your whole thesis (Jihad by Catholic Croatians and Slovenians??) yet it never occurs you that Serbs, and not everyone else could just be at fault. The cowards seized control of JNA and decided to use terror, rape and genocide to carve a 'Velika Serbia' while everyone else was unarmed. And Milosevic was a moderate, their "Christian Church" actually supported Karadzic, and Arkan.

Guess what? Serbs got a bloody nose by the Slovenians, Croatians (after they got armed) and KLA begged the US to lift the weapons embargo /supply weapons. Serbs, can try to get it again, Albanians are now armed so it will be a fair fight (NATO will not be there forever and Russia will be kept away by the US)

They will never do it, because Serbs, alone without other republics and provinces, apparently aren't anything and their population decline is not helping:
(quote)
"In the next two decades Serbia's population will decline by a half million people, latest statistics say.

Belgrade daily Danas cited an estimate from the National Statistics Bureau that the country will have 6.8 million people by 2023, compared to the current 7.3 million inhabitants.....Earlier data showed that Serbia’s population was the forth oldest in the world and that the number of 15-year-olds was almost equal to those aged 65 years."
www.balkaninsight.com/en/main/news/11763/
(end)

Do you really what to know why Serbs are really mad? They surrendered like cowards to the Turks, and they even brag about it: 1389. Half of Serbs surrendered "in a vain bid to save their lives" and the other half run. The coward is their saint, and so is Prince Marko, a Serb hero who died while fighting on behalf of Turks against Balkan Christians. Russia gave them autonomy, independence, and Kosovo. And despite the Serbian lies, they were many more Serbs fighting FOR the Nazis than against, google ZBOR, Serbian Volunteer Guard, Nedic, Pecanac to start. For these distortions they think they're entitled to rule over others. Nice try.

To the Serbs: Meet the new reality, 7 million Albanians right next door (Catholic, Muslim, Orthodox, Protestant, Mormon, Atheist and god knows what.)

From Margaret Thatcher, the Iron Lady:
"It would be both cruel and stupid to expect the Albanian Kosovans now to return to live under any form of Serbian rule. Kosovo must be given independence, initially under international protection. And there must be no partition, a plan that predictable siren voices are already advancing. Partition would only serve to reward violence and ethnic cleansing. It would be to concede defeat. And I am unmoved by Serb pleas to retain their grasp on most of Kosovo because it contains their holy places. Coming from those who systematically levelled Catholic churches and Muslim mosques wherever they went, such an argument is cynical almost to the point of blasphemy."

Serbs, lead by their 'Church' gambled with their total war and lost everything Russia gave them so now they're trying to invent excuses to at least shake of their Nazi label. Just Vojvodina is left now. Oh, and Serbs are broke, begging, tired, old...and surrounded by enemies. But don't worry Serbs, EU will save you if your enemies decide to give you some of your own medicine.