Fitzgerald: What Israel has to do with dhimmitude and the West

A poster at Jihad Watch recently asked: "My big question is this: What does Israel have to do with dhimmitude or the West?"

Answer: Everything. Israel is part of the West, and the West would not be the West without Israel's contribution to that West.

Israel, or the Jews, lost their land (as did so many other non-Muslim and non-Arab peoples) during the Muslim conquest of the Middle East and North Africa, in which islamization was accompanied by arabization. (In some places, however, such as Iran, that arabization was seen for what it was: cultural and linguistic imperialism that convinced so many of those conquered that they were "Arabs" or would have to become “Arabs” in order to be "Muslims.") Yet many Jews managed to start returning to build a Jewish Commonwealth, many decades before the Mandate for Palestine was created by the League of Nations. They continued to return, with great difficulty, during the period of the Mandate as well, despite a largely unsympathetic British mandatory authority that did not abide by the terms of the Mandate. See Article 6 of the Mandate, for example, which required the Mandatory power to "facilitate close Jewish settlement on the land." And other Jews, survivors of the death camps, also came to join the effort. Nearly a million arrived from where, in the various Muslim Arab lands, they had been subjected to mistreatment and endured insecurity as dhimmis (as did all the non-Muslims under Islam).

The Jews of Israel, at least the 50% of the population that came from Arab countries, are no longer willing to live as dhimmis, and will not return to that status. The Jews who were the descendants of those who left the Land of Israel to go further afield, into Europe, are only now beginning to learn about what Islam is all about -- as is the rest of the Infidel world, and not a moment too soon.

And they, and the rest of the West, and the rest of the non-Western Infidels, will begin to recognize, in larger and larger numbers, that the war that is today being made on Israel is merely a classic Jihad, and always has been. It has been obscured, partly by the artful use by Muslims of islamochristians among the "West Bank" Arabs (Hanan Ashrawi, Naim Ateek, Michel Sabbah, etc.), to promote the Islamic agenda. But it has mainly been obscured by the careful creation of that utterly phony "Palestinian" identity that so much effort was put into "constructing." See, for example, Mahmoud Darwish for one careful "constructor" who, before the Six-Day War, used to declare that "I am an Arab" and then, presto-chango, stopped saying that and after that war spoke of himself to Westerners only as a "Palestinian." He and others did this for reasons that Zuhair Mohsen incautiously spelled out to James Dorsey in an interview for the Dutch newspaper "Trouw."

The Jihad against Israel is conducted through qitaal, conventional combat, and also through terrorism, as well as through diplomatic and economic pressure, and propaganda. The works. There may be differences on questions of timing and tactics between the Fast Jihadists of Hamas and the Slow Jihadists of Fatah, but there is no difference at all on the ultimate goal: Israel, as a place where Jews can live on land once possessed by Muslims, and not live as dhimmis, must cease to exist. That's it. No other outcome for Muslim Arabs -- save for a handful of the most intellectually and morally advanced -- is tolerable.

And the Jihad against Israel received a lot of attention -- though it is seen not as a Jihad but as the Arabs wanted it to be seen, as a "struggle of a tiny people, the "Palestinians," etc., against an “occupier" and so on. This propaganda campaign began even before the OPEC trillions arrived, and before Muslim millions had foolishly been allowed to settle in the Western countries, and before Western technological advances (audiocassettes, videocassettes, satellite television, the Internet) were appropriated by Muslims -- who were incapable themselves of developing such things -- in order to spread further the message, the full deadly message, of Islam, to the farthest corners of Dar al-Harb, because the entire world, you see, belongs to Allah and to his people.

That's what Israel "has to do with dhimmitude and the West."

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44 Comments

Hugh,

In the next to the last sentence, didn't you mean the "farthest corners of Dar al-Harb," the Domain of War (i.e., non-Muslim lands)?

Yes.

Thank you.

That was pretty concise.... Thank you. As I walked along the farmers market this morning, I had to wonder about the covered heads I saw.. and stayed away from.

O god. Where?

Hugh,

Many people that I have spoken to have taken the view that "Israel is the problem".
With education this is changing.
Recently on a school visit to a mosque (this is the PC thing in the islamic republic of the UK) I accompanied my son to keep my eagle eyes and ears on what was going on there.
The mosque speaker repeatedly made references to "Occupied Jerusalam". I looked through the library at books with fascinating chapters such as "The crimes and sins of the Christians and Jews".
The teachers were all so PC, so PC infact that it did not occur to them that they shouldn't take their ham sandwiches into the dammed mosque.
This is the level of PC ignorance.

Israel is sacred, if Israel goes we all go, it is the canary in the coal mine, I say this as a non Jew and non Christian.

We can all do our bit, buy Israeli wine, olives etc.
Infact in the UK the overwhelming majority of little grocery and wine shops are Indian owned, I am sure the situation is similar in the USA.
I am sure that you are aware there is no love lost between us Indians and the moslems. This is a tremendous opportunity for Israeli wines sellers. Drink Israeli wine and help Israel.
Indians will stock Israeli goods.
I have seen and heard first hand the venomous islamic hatred of Jews/Israel and I have heard moslmes quite openly admit that we are No 2 on the "To do list"

Israel is certainly the canary in the mine and, as the only true democracy in the ME, we should support and expand our relationship with them.

A certain small percentage of "Palestinians" are Christians, aren't they? Including some activists. George Habash was a Christian, I believe. (Or is he still alive?)

India is not "No. 2" on the To-Do List after Israel. It's right up there with Israel. Israel has gotten most of the attention by Muslims only because it is smack in the middle of Dar al-Islam, and because the
Arabs are most immediately involved. But now that Muslims have greater means, or think they have the means, not only to force a surrender of Kashmir, \but to permanently make life hell for Hindus and other non-Muslims in India, they will, they are, going to do so. Just look at what has happened to Hindus in Pakistan, Bangladesh, Kashmir. Look at the bombs that go off routinely in India -- and so many other attacks never reported outside the particular Indian state.

As for non-Muslim Indians in Great Britain, whatever may divide them (Hindus, Sikhs, Jains, even Christians) is, and should be recognized as, nothing compared to the common threat from Islam that should unite them.

I like that idea of Indian-owned convenience stores deliberately stocking goods from Israel. That would also be a signal to English clientele that the store is not Muslim-owned. Just like a wine list, or a picture of Ganesha, in an Indian restaurant -- a guarantee that diners are not indirectly supporting those who do not wish them well.

I certainly would agree that Israel is a "canary in a coal mine", but I would also point out Sir Kenneth Clark's comment about "civilization with women being vastly preferred to civilization without women".

In fact, I will go further and say that without women civilization is impossible. And guess what the statue of women in Islamic Republic is?

A certain small percentage of "Palestinians" are Christians, aren't they? Including some activists. George Habash was a Christian, I believe."
-- from a posting above

Not "Christians." Islamochristians. There's a big difference. Few Maronites, and few Copts (once they are out of Egypt), and one suspects few Assyrians or Chaldeans (once they have for a while been safely living in the West) are "islamochristians." But a great many "Palestinian" Arabs whose Christianity does not go back very far (and so they are lacking thei historic memory, and the self-confidence, of Copts or Maronites) turn out to be promoters of the Islam-based agenda, and willing tools of the Arab propaganda designed to weaken support for Israel.

When someone is introduced to you as a "Palestinian," you must not simply indicate acceptance of this tendentious description. If you say nothing you will have implicated yourself in a monstrous, politically-induced fiction. You should immediately reply, with the sweetest possible smile: "Oh, so are you a Muslim or a Christian Arab." That will get them. And that will prevent any inadvertent collaboration with the enemy.

tanstaafl:

Back in the 70's a book came out called Sexual Suicide. It was about the essential role of women in creating a humane civilization. What it said was what you just said, in effect, that without woman allowed to be themselves, civilization is not possible.

Some other poster a week or two ago wrote a wonderful piece, the theme of which was that the teenage boys and the teenage boy mentality is the essence of islam.

They are two sides of a coin.

In Israel, Western civilization has a light in the middle of barbarity. Defending Israel is defending the West.

The juveniles of islam and the West both understand that. Thus, their common hatred.

Moonzoo! That book helped me live through my late teens and early twenties. I read it at least three times; and now the Wikipedia entry of George Gilder reminds me that the author's 1986 book Men and Marriage is an update.

Thanks for the memory of the (ongoing) Sexual Suicide, which is relevant to jihadWatch to the extent that the inability of the West to reproduce is adding to the danger of Jihad.

Good piece, Hugh. But Israel still undermines its own public image to an extent---and I say this as a proud Zionist Jew. More control is needed over the treatment of Arab civilians at checkpoints, IDF tolerance of abusive behavior by the religious settlers, etc., and the demolition of terrorists' houses is the most counterproductive policy imaginable. Israel is in a good position to get its message across; namely, that the conflict with the "Palestinians" is a battle against jihad, but there are things that could be done to stop handing propaganda coups to the bad guys.

Israel still undermines its own public image to an extent..."
-- from a posting above

No Israeli government since the victory in the Six-Day War has either been vigilant about the careful Arab re-definition of the conflict, or been able to recognize for itself, and instruct others in, the real nature of that conflict. And if you are not clear yourself, how can you intelligently explain things to an outside world which, forgetting or unmindful of history (long and short-term), and blandly, even shamelessly indifferent to the larger context without which the "Arab-Israeli conflict" (in reality, the Arab Muslim Jihad against Israel) cannot be understood.

Hugh wrote: "And if you are not clear yourself, how can you intelligently explain things to an outside world which, forgetting or unmindful of history (long and short-term), and blandly, even shamelessly indifferent to the larger context without which the "Arab-Israeli conflict" (in reality, the Arab Muslim Jihad against Israel) cannot be understood."

I concur totally with that. Nevertheless, the Pals are not homogeneous; not all are terrorists and not all support terror. Some are just trying to live their lives. Israel is more sinned against than sinning, but there is room for improvement and, to paraphrase an old Yiddish dialect joke, "it couldn't hoit."

NYC

Huge you are rewritten history is illegality. Israel
lost than war with the Roman Empire when Nero was leader of said Empire way before any Islamist Empire. Roman Empire and the Eastern Roman Empire have a polcy of not allowing the Jew to return to their city expect for one day a year when they where allow to wail at the wailing wall. When the muslim conquest the holy city they allow the jew to return to live there.

"...they allow the jew to return to live there ... as dhimmis".

Fixed that for you, DefenderOfIslam; must have been a bad connection - lost the last two words of your sentence.

Thanks for that great post, Hugh. Clear backgrounding on its origins and explanation for the current situation of Israel are not exactly falling into the hand like ripe fruit.

Well DefenderofIslam you go right on defending [mohammedism], maybe you can for a little while more. But now that you and yours have declared war on the world your days are numbered.

The West, India and the civilized peoples of Africa are too slow to anger, terribly slow. But as you and your fellow [mohammedans] keep pushing, keep killing, keep insulting others the day will come in one local after the other.There are millions of us who do NOT want and will NOT accommodate your demands, we will NOT be dhimmi and more and more of our fellows are coming to realize there can be no peace with Ishmael and his spawn.

Yes the [mohammedans] protect the dhimmi the way your little friends have murdered hundreds of thousands of Christians in Sudan and East Africa. Yes the [mohammedans] protect the dhimmi the way your little friends kidnap and rape Christian children in Pakistan. So DefenderofIslam you go right on defending [mohammedism], but the day of reckoning is coming. Israel will be the least of your problems.

Jesus Christ IS the True Son of GOD -WAS crucified - DID rise from to grave to Save Sinner. That I defend. My GOD is GOD and your god isn't. Take care DefenderofIslam, I hope you do learn to know Jesus Christ as True Man and True GOD and know the Trinity.

From a poster who calls himself a 'Zionist Jew':

"More control is needed over the treatment of Arab civilians at checkpoints,'

Really? Like one young Israeli women who has to face up to 30 Arabs at any given time?

IDF tolerance of abusive behavior by the religious settlers, etc., and the demolition of terrorists' houses is the most counterproductive policy imaginable.

How so? The settlers are within their rights and what they do is harmless compared with what the Arabs would do to them if they had a chance. When was the last time a terrorists house was blown up? I wish the IDF would follow through with these policies, they work! Do you really believe the Arabs will like us if we don't kick ass?

This is exactly what's wrong with the Olmerde government..!

Last Randion Sikhs came to our center for 10 night to break the fast with us muslim. I than looking forward to it again this year. Muslim watcher so you support Huge prejury version of history which show you donot know history too well. Like one racist idiot whom claim when the Muslim invade India they murder 500 million Hindit, the total world population of that time was est to be 250 million people. Than other myth is that Islam was spead by the sword an people where force to convert. Christian in Western Europe make this up as they found hard that Islam spead so far in 100 year. I read some where the two largest group of people in Heaven will be Muslim and Jew. Christian who belive that Christ was God or the Son of God and workship the cross willnot enter Heaven.

Hmm, ladies and gentlemen - there *do* seem to be a lot of Boggarts and Dementors about.

I wonder why?

Perhaps because Mr Fitzgerald has posted a beautifully rational and lucid statement in defence of Israel, that is, of the Jewish state.

He has stated, very clearly, the thing which is the nub of the problem:

"The Jews of Israel, at least the 50% of the population that came from Arab countries, are no longer willing to live as dhimmis, and will not return to that status."

Being a dhimmi - whether you were a Jew, a Christian, a Zoroastrian, or a Hindu - can only have been a living hell: a condition, as Hugh has frequently summed it up, of "permanent degradation, humiliation, and physical insecurity". And *that* is an understatement.

I have read Bat Yeor, and Andrew Bostom. It was as difficult for me to do, as reading accounts of the Shoah, for it is to descend into the depths, to witness the extent of the evil and abuse that human beings can perpetrate upon other human beings whom they have reclassified as 'things' to whom it is permissible to do...everything, and anything, at will, with impunity.

The Jews do not intend to go back into hell. No-one should dare to ask them to do so. Their little state is under a merciless Muslim siege, but within it, they live with a verve and a creativity that was simply impossible in Yemen, or Persia, or Afghanistan, or Egypt, or any of the other places where they lived - or, more correctly, precariously survived - under the iron heel and the bloody scimitar of Islam.

have read Andrew Bostom's "The Legacy of Islamic Antisemitism". Every non-Muslim who comes to this site should buy, and read it, as soon as possible.

It gives a devastating account of the irrational, violent and ugly hatred of Jews that is coded into the very foundations of Islam.

Muslims treated Jews with absolute contempt. They robbed them, insulted them, lynched them, raped them, bullied them, threw stones at them, made them clean toilets and preserve the heads of executed criminals, stole their children and women, and periodically mass murdered them or forced them - or tried to force them - to convert to Islam.

Muslim Boggarts and Dementors are swarming around this thread...because this thread is about Israel, the House of Israel, the Jews and the Jewish state, and Muslims *hate* Jews...not because of Israel, but simply because Mohammed told them to hate Jews, and so...Muslims hate Jews. DefenderofIslam may be trying - transparently, at the end of his posting above - to persuade Jews that Christians are the enemy, but he will have difficulty erasing the evidence, such as Al-Maghili: "Love of the Prophet demands hatred of Jews".

Hugh added: "The Jews who were the descendants of those who left the Land of Israel to go further afield, into Europe, are only now beginning to learn about what Islam is all about -- as is the rest of the Infidel world, and not a moment too soon."

And that is the other reason why this thread is full of Boggarts and Dementors, trotting out all the old propaganda lies; they are trying hard to distract attention from, to obscure, Hugh's terrible lucidity and to confuse and deflect those new non-Muslim readers who - reading Hugh's words, which ring like steel on steel - are finally coming to see things straight.

"Like one racist idiot whom claim when the Muslim invade India they murder 500 million Hindit, the total world population of that time was est to be 250 million people."

In which year ? From 638.

http://www.historyofjihad.org/india.html?syf=contact

Dumbledoresarmy writes: "Hugh's words, which ring like steel on steel ..."


Yes, oversimplifications DO have a certain adamantine quality. But at the end of the day, Israelis have to live with these folks, up close and personal. Neither side is about to go away.

"Do you really believe the Arabs will like us if we don't kick ass?"

Many will not, but even fewer will if Israelis behave like a*****s. Buddy, I've paid a lot of social dues for holding up my end of the hasbara struggle in Canada and the US. It would be nice if the religious settlers and others would make that job a bit easier for me.

P.S. For those who don't know the Hebrew, hasbara is public relations/spin ...

Arabs and Muslims (Arab or otherwise) and their fellow-traveller antisemites of other kinds, and even certain quisling Jews, frequently claim that there is a vast and clever and entirely mendacious Zionist propaganda going on.

I propose to new non-Muslim readers at this site, who will undoubtedly encounter - or have already encountered - such claims, that they might consider deferring, in this case, to the judgement of one of the twentieth century's most ruthless anatomists of all forms of propaganda. That is: the French sociologist and gadfly, Jacques Ellul, author of the classic study "Propaganda" (French title, 'Propagandes') in which he anatomised the phenomenon with much the same fastidious disdain as a master surgeon dissecting a particularly loathsome malignancy.

Having been exposed, both before and during the war, to the best efforts of Goebbels and company, he may be regarded as having practical as well as theoretical experience.

One of Ellul's lesser known works, not yet translated into English, is "Un Chretien Pour Israel" (1986), written not long after the First Lebanon War.

In that work he gives his considered judgement - wearing his professional hat, as sociologist, as observer and anatomist of propaganda - that it was the Arab Muslims and their enablers and fellow travellers who were the master spin-doctors, not the Israelis, not the Jews.

For example, in a chapter entitled 'Propaganda', Ellul explains:

“Quand je dis que c’est la propagande qui m’a amene a prendre parti, je parle de l’impressionnante propagande palestinienne et anti-israelienne. La, oui, on peut parler de propagande."

'When I say that it is the propaganda that led me to take sides, I am talking about the remarkable Palestinian and anti-Israeli propaganda. There, yes, we can speak of propaganda.'

Below, I will post two extended passages, in French with a basic translation, from 'Un Chretien Pour Israel'. Those who can read French are strongly recommended to obtain the book and read the whole thing for themselves.

Selected excerpts, in French with a literal translation, from Jacques Ellul, Un Chretien Pour Israel (*One* Christian Supports Israel), 1986.

EXCERPT A.
From the chapter entitled, 'Propaganda' – Ellul explains how his growing awareness of an enormous pro-Palestinian anti-Israel propaganda campaign drove him to take sides against it, and to choose to stand with Israel.

“Quand je dis que c’est la propagande qui m’a amene a prendre parti, je parle de l’impressionnante propagande palestinienne et anti-israelienne. La, oui, on peut parler de propagande. D’ailleurs notons, des le debut, que c’est un des caracteres classiques de la propagande d’accuser son adversaire d’abuser de la propagande. C’est un des premiers tests.

- When I say that it is the propaganda that led me to take sides, I am talking about the remarkable Palestinian and anti-Israeli propaganda. There, yes, we can speak of propaganda.

- By the way, let us note at the outset that one of the classic marks of propaganda is that it accuses its adversary of abusing propaganda. That is one of the first proofs.

"Hitler n’a cesse de clamer qu’il se bornait a dire la verite, et que c’etaient les Americains et les Anglais qui, depuis 1934, faisaient contre lui une propagande dementielle. Staline n’a cesse de declarer qu’il ne cherchait jamais a influencer l’opinion mondiale, mais que c’etaient les Etats capitalistes qui abreuvaient le monde de mensonges et d’accusations contre l’innocent regime des Soviets.

"Je me suis senti inonde depuis vingt ans environ par la propagande palestinienne.

- Hitler never stopped claiming that he confined himself to speaking the truth, and that it was the Americans and the English who, after 1934, were making a mad propaganda against him.

- Stalin never stopped declaring that he never sought to influence world opinion, but that it was the capitalist states, which were feeding the world with lies and accusations against the innocent Soviet regime.

- For around 20 years I have felt myself drowning in Palestinian propaganda.

"Et, de fait, Yasser Arafat m’est apparu comme un genie de la propagande, le plus grand depuis Goebbels. La composition du personnage, le spectaculaire de ses interventions (son arrivee a l’ONU, pistolet a la ceinture, l’entrevue avec le Pape), son caractere amical et solide, l’habilete de ses discours, la capacite a retourner une situation par des mots, l’aptitude a mobiliser autour de lui les media, l’identification de sa personne a tout le peuple palestinien (le processus tres remarquable: l’OLP, c’est Arafat; tous les Palestiniens, c’est l’OLP).

- And in fact Yasser Arafat appeared to me as a propaganda genius, second only to Goebbels. The construction of the image, the spectacle of his speeches (his arrival at the UN with a revolver in [his] belt; his audience with the Pope), his amicable and ‘sturdy’ character, the cleverness of his speech, [his] capacity to turn a situation upside-down with words, [his] ability to gather the media around him, the identification of his person with all the Palestinian people (very remarkable sequence: the PLO is Arafat; all Palestinians are the PLO).

"Sa capacite a repeter indefiniment des contre-verites eclatantes jusqu’a ce que ses affirmations soient acceptees comme verites, les faits etant occultes par la puissance du discours…

"Quant a la relation entre propagande israelienne et propagande palestinienne, je ne prendrai qu’un seul exemple: au moment de la guerre du Liban (je veux dire de ce que l’on appelle l’invasion israelienne au Liban), j’ai compte en deux mois dix-sept placards publicitaires parus dans le Monde en faveur des Palestiniens et condamnant Israel, contre: une protestation officielle de l’ambassade d’Israel, un communiqué du C. R. I. F (mais qui en tiendra compte?) et un placard publicitaire pour Israel (emanant de l’Amitie France-Israel).

- His (Arafat’s) capacity to endlessly repeat shattering anti-truths until his affirmations were accepted as truth, the facts being obscured by the power of rhetoric…

"As for the proportion between Israeli propaganda and Palestinian propaganda I will take just one example: at the moment of the Lebanon War (I mean to speak of what people call the Israeli invasion of Lebanon), in two months I counted 17 advertisements – on behalf of the Palestinians and condemning Israel - appearing in Le Monde.

"On the other side: one official protest by the Israeli ambassador; one communiqué by the C. R. I. F (but who would take [any] notice of that?); and one advertisement on behalf of Israel (coming from the France-Israel Friendship Society).

Ellul’s note on the source of the pro-Palestinian advertisements:

CEDETIM, Collectif Information Liban-Palestine, Comite France-Jerusalem, CCFD, CIMADE, Solidarite Franco-Arabe, Comite de Soutien au people palestinien, Comite pour la Paix au Proche-Orient, Temoignage chretien, Collectif de Vincennes, Association Medicale Franco-Palestinienne, Collectif National pour la Palestine, Conference mondiale des chretiens pour la Palestine, Union Generale des Etudiants palestiniens…chaque groupe faisant paraitre son petit placard de propagande dans le Monde!

"De meme le Collectif d’Information a organise un mois durant, du 30 juin au 27 juillet 1982, une serie de projections de onze films sur le Liban, les Palestiniens, etc., a Paris. En realite, il s’agit bien de films de propagande. Et l’on doit remarquer a quel point le systeme de propagande est bien organisee: le debut de “l’invasion” du Liban par Israel est le 6 juin 1982: en vingt jours, le Collectif pouvait reunir et organiser un mois de manifestations cinematographiques parfaitement diffusees!

- CEDETIM, the Lebanon-Palestine Information Collective, the France-Jerusalem Association, CCFD, CIMADE, Franco-Arab Solidarity, the Association of Support for the Palestinian People, the Association for Peace in the Near East, Christian Witness, the Vincennes Collective, the French-Palestinian Medical Association, the National Collective for Palestine, the World Council of Christians for Palestine, the General Union of Palestinian Students…each group publishing its little propaganda poster in Le Monde!

- At the same time the Information Collective organised for one month, between 30 June and 27 July 1982, a series of screenings of 11 films about Lebanon, the Palestinians, etc, in Paris. In fact, it’s about propaganda films. And we should remark how well organised is the system of propaganda. Israel’s invasion of Lebanon began on 6 June 1982; within 20 days the Collective was able to gather and organise a month of cinema showings, perfectly broadcast!

"Ce n’est qu’un exemple non demonstratif, mais je le donne parce qu’il correspond a peu pres a la realite globale du poids de l’une et de l’autre propagande, dans la documentation assez considerable que j’ai accumulee depuis qu j’ai “senti” se developper la un phenomene de propagande exceptionnel.

- This is only one example, it isn’t decisive, but I give it because it corresponds fairly closely to the overall reality of the [relative] weight of the one and of the other propaganda, in the pretty considerable documentation that I have gathered since I “became aware” that an exceptional phenomenon of propaganda was unfolding itself.”…..

"Or, j’ai travaille pendant presque vingt ans pour analyser les formes, les techniques, les effets, les caracteres, les facteurs de la propagande.

"Et quand j’en parle, ce n’est pas tout a fait en sentimental, ignorantin.

" J’ai pu appliquer presque tous les criteres de la propagande scientifique a cette propagande palestinienne, et anti-israelienne.

"Lorsque j’ai vu et pour moi demonte le fait, alors j’ai pris parti plus decisivement pour Israel, car si celui-ci est tres fort pour organiser une armee ou un service de renseignements, produire sur le plan technique ou economique, il est nul au plan de la propagande.

- Now, for almost twenty years [i.e. since the 1960s] I have laboured to analyse the forms, the techniques, the effects, the characteristics, the factors of Propaganda.
-
And when I talk about propaganda I do not do so as a sentimental and ignorant person. I have been able to apply almost all the criteria of scientific propaganda to this Palestinian, anti-Israel propaganda.

- After I had seen the thing and deconstructed it for myself, then I took sides more decisively for Israel; for although Israel is very good at organising an army or an intelligence service, [or at] production on a technical or an economic level, he is hopeless at propaganda.

"Et je sais tout le mal qu’une propagande peut faire, et qu’elle etablit un monde faux, purement fictive, mais qui est tenu par l’opinion, par les journalistes et par les intellectuals eux-memes (mais ne sait-on pas que les intellectuals sont plus sensibles que les autres, quand ils n’ont pas demonte le mecanisme?) pour la Verite.

- And I know all the evil that a propaganda [campaign] is able to do: that it establishes a world which is false, purely fictional, but which is regarded as the Truth by [public] opinion, by the journalists and by the intellectuals themselves (but don’t we know that intellectuals are more susceptible than others, unless they have deconstructed the mechanism?).

"C’est un monde purement spectaculaire, mais c’est celui-la qui est dans notre société tenu pour le bon, comme dans les visions du Loup des Steppes. Des lors, a cause de cette propagande palestinienne, j’ai pris parti contre!

- It is a world of pure illusion; but it is that [world of illusion] which in our society is accepted as the good, as in the visions of the Wolf of the Steppes. Therefore, because of this Palestinian propaganda I took sides against it!”.

When, in this fashion, one of the 20th century’s foremost analysts of propaganda gives it as his considered judgement that the ‘Palestinians’ and their supporters were the spin-masters and that the Israelis were not, I must say that I am convinced.

EXCERPT B: (from the chapter, Antizionism and Antisemitism) -

"Or, un element qui me parait decisif, c’est qu’il faut bien comprendre que l’antisionisme n’est pas une arme innocente. Il est parfaitement utopique de separer l’antisionisme de l’antisemitisme. Bien entendu, je sais que sur le papier c’est possible quoique difficile!

- Now, one thing that seemed decisive to me is that we must understand that anti-Zionism is not an innocent weapon. It is perfectly utopian to separate anti-Zionism from anti-Semitism. Of course, I know that it’s possible on paper, though difficult!....


"Si j’excepte ceci, on peut affirmer que les Juifs sont solidaires avec leur Etat et qu’ils n’admettent pas que l’on puisse etre antisioniste et philosemite. Et je reviens a l’impossibilite en effet de separer les deux.

" J’admets fort bien qu’individuellement nos chretiens antisionistes ne tueraient pas un Juif! Mais ce qu’ils ne voient pas, c’est la creation d’une opinion a laquelle ils participent.

- If I except this, we can affirm that the Jews stand with their State and that they do not accept that it is possible to be anti-Zionist and philo-Semitic {alternatively: to hate Israel and love Jews - dda}. And I return to the impossibility, indeed, of separating the two.

- Very well, I accept that as individuals our anti-Zionist Christians would not kill a single Jew! But what they don’t see is that they are taking part in the creation of an opinion.

"Le bon public ne raffine pas, il ne fait pas de subtiles analyses. Pour lui, c’est clair, Israel, c’est un Etat juif.

"Et toute critique contre Israel se traduit immanquablement en critique contre les Juifs.

"Si l’Etat d’Israel est raciste, capitaliste, nazi, militariste, imperialiste, envahisseur, dominateur, donc les Juifs sont racists, capitalistes, imperialistes, dominateurs…et la preuve, c’est d’ailleurs que les Juifs d’Amerique et de partout aident tant qu’ils peuvent ce vilain Etat.

- Good Joe Public makes no fine distinctions, he makes no subtle analyses. For him it’s clear – Israel is a Jewish State.

- And every charge against Israel translates itself ineluctably into a charge against the Jews.

- If the State of Israel is racist, capitalist, Nazi, militaristic, imperialist, invader, dominator, then the Jews are racists, capitalists, imperialists, dominators…and the proof, by the way, is that the Jews of America and everywhere [else] help this contemptible State as much as they can.

"Ainsi, si nous voulons combattre ce nodule de mal qui est installe en Palestine, c’est le Juif en general qu’il faut combattre. Et ces Juifs repandus partout, avec un noyau dur au centre, mais c’est un vrai cancer. Et nous devons les expulser.

"On s’inquiete d’une reprise d’antisemitisme un peu partout, dans l’opinion. Et l’on met cela en relation avec une renaissance des idees nazis.

"Je dirai que l’on se trompe de processus: c’est parce qu’il y a antisemitisme que, a cette occasion, il y a un retour vers l’ideologie nazie.

- So if we want to fight this nodule of evil which is installed in Palestine it is the Jew in general that must be fought. And the Jews everywhere, with a hard kernel at the centre, this is a true cancer. And we must expel them.

- People are worried by a resurgence of anti-Semitism almost everywhere in public opinion. And people relate it to a rebirth of Nazi ideas.

- I would say that people are confusing the order of events: it is because there is anti-Semitism that, on this occasion, there is a turn toward Nazi ideology.

"Mais cet antisemitisme, il n’est pas ne de rien.

"Il est ne exactement de l’enorme, la fabuleuse propagande contre l’Etat d’Israel.

"Celui-ci a ete tellement represente comme le Mal absolu que cela a necessairement rejailli sur tous les Juifs. Et, a l’occasion d’attentats antijuifs, on peut se lamenter et faire des proclamations contre le racisme, cela ne sert absolument a rien tant que, au meme moment, on continue a maudire Israel."

- But this anti-Semitism has not been born out of nothing.

- It has been born, precisely, from the enormous, the fabulous propaganda against the State of Israel.

{NOTA BENE - Jacques Ellul was not the kind of person to say something like this lightly or casually. If he said there was an 'enormous, a fabulous propaganda against the State of Israel' going on, then he intended those words as a strict description of what was happening - dda}.

- Israel has thus been represented as absolute Evil, which has necessarily rebounded against all Jews. And on the occasion of attacks against Jews people can lament and make proclamations against racism - that will do absolutely no good while at the same time they continue to curse Israel.

"Vous n’y pouvez rien, l’homme quelconque recoit des impulsions qu’il traduit en idees simples et claires.

"Vous ne pouvez pas lui dire en meme temps: aime les Juifs et deteste l’Etat juif!

"Que l’antisionisme soit le fourrier et le preparateur de l’antisemitisme a ete parfaitement mis en valeur par Dufour [R Dufour, 'Comment comprendre la campagne antijuive et anti-israelienne des media et des responsables francais', 1982]

- You can’t do anything [about it]; the man in the street receives impulses which he translates into simple and clear ideas. You can’t say to him, at the same time, “love the Jews and hate the Jewish state!” Dufour has shown clearly that anti-Zionism feeds and prepares anti-Semitism [R. Dufour, How to understand the anti-Jewish and anti-Israel campaign in the media ... 1982].

"Analysant les textes, il montre que “dans des phases et reseaux de desinformation, ce qui est vise, c’est la destruction de l’identite d’Israel a la fois dans son representant moderne aussi bien que dans sa communaute, et sa propre conscience d’identite morale en chacun des Juifs”: l’objectif de cette destruction d’identite vise d’un seul coup Israel et le people juif et chaque juif!

- Analysing the texts, Dufour shows that ‘in the phases and networks of disinformation, what’s envisaged is the destruction of the identity of Israel, both in its modern representative and also in its community, and in every Jew his own awareness of moral identity”: the objective of this destruction of identity takes in at one stroke Israel and the Jewish people and every Jew!"


I apologise for the length of these postings, but this book by Ellul appears to me to be very important and it is not very easy to get hold of, being out of print (in Australia there is exactly one copy publicly available, in one library); if one cannot read French, it is not accessible at all. My apologies for the interpolated English translations, which are my own; all infelicities are my own fault.

Here is the 'money quote' so you can't miss it. In the course of the passage cited below, Ellul states:

"It is, then, this observation of a pro-Palestinian propaganda of a unique breadth and cleverness, since the beginning of the 1960s, that radically shifted me away from the defenders of the Palestinians and caused me to draw near to Israel."

Got that?

Now we can settle down and read the whole passage.

EXCERPT C, from 'Propaganda', in "Un Chretien Pour Israel" (note that Ellul opens by treating the anti-Israel propaganda as a sort of 'case study').

"Je crois que l’histoire de l’information concernant Israel devrait etre faite minutieusement parce qu’elle est exemplaire des mecanismes de creation de l’opinion publique au sujet d’une totale irrealite, construite par l’accumulation de mots subvertis donnant naissance a des lieux communs indiscutes, et crus par des millions d’auditeurs ou de lecteurs qui n’ont evidemment pas le temps de faire une analyse des faits et des textes.

- I believe that the history of the “information” concerning Israel ought to be set out in minute detail,

because it exemplifies the mechanisms by which [people can] create a public opinion on the subject of a complete non-reality,

constructed by the piling up of subverted words, [and] giving birth to commonplaces [that are] never discussed and [that are] believed by millions of hearers or readers who obviously don’t have time to make an analysis of the facts and of the texts.

"Si bien que se produit un retournement remarquable: une analyse comme celle-ci sera (comme les autres que j’ai ecrites au sujet d’Israel) cataloguee ‘propagande’, precisement parce qu’elle va contre l’opinion dominante qui ne peut pas concevoir qu’elle-meme soit le resultat d’une propagande constante (dictee par des interets tres palpables) etalee sur des decennies.

- So much so, that a remarkable turnaround is produced: an analysis like this will be (like the others that I have written on the subject of Israel) categorised as “propaganda”, precisely because it goes against the prevailing opinion which cannot conceive that it is itself the result of a continual propaganda (dictated by very palpable [vested] interests) [and] spread out for decades.

"C’est donc ce constat d’une propagande propalestinienne d’une ampleur et d’une habilite uniques, depuis le debut des annees soixante, qui m’a radicalement ecarte de la defense palestinienne et qui m’a rapproche d’Israel.

- It is, then, this observation of a pro-Palestinian propaganda of a unique breadth and cleverness, since the beginning of the 1960s, that radically shifted me away from the defenders of the Palestinians and caused me to draw near to Israel.

"C’est ainsi au premier chef une reaction de sociologue de la propagande qui ne veut pas se laisser ‘pieger’. Mais c’est aussi en tant que chretien qu j’ai reagi de cette facon.

"Et cela a deux points de vue. D’abord, par une recherche un peu plus exigeante et moins immediatement sentimentale de la realite. J’ai souvent ecrit que les chretiens devaient etre tres attentifs au reel.

- That [reaction] is thus first of all the reaction of a sociologist of propaganda who does not want to be “taken in”.

- But it is also as a Christian that I have reacted in this manner. And that from two points of view. First, by studying the facts a little more strictly and less immediately sentimentally. I have often written that Christians ought to be very attentive to reality {or, alternatively, 'to the facts' - dda}.

"Mais il y a aussi l’experience que nous avons faite des consequences normales d’une propagande de cet ordre. Les suites sont logiques et n’ont jamais manqué au cours de l’histoire; c’est pourquoi on peut des maintenant les craindre.

- But there is too the experience we have had of the normal consequences of a propaganda of this magnitude. The consequences are logical and have never been lacking in the course of history; that is why we must fear them from now on.

"... je considere le fait de cette propagande comme decisif, et que j’ai ete pousse par elle dans le sens invers de celui qu’elle proposait.

-... I consider the fact of that propaganda to be decisive, and that it has pushed me in the opposite direction to that which it proposed.

"Nous aurons ainsi a examiner le contenu de cette propagande (c’est-a-dire les accusations contre Israel), les methods et, a part, la propagande au cours de la guerre du Liban.

- Thus we have to examine the content of this propaganda (that is to say, the accusations against Israel), its methods and, separately, propaganda during the course of the Lebanon war."

{dda - I will note that Ellul's meticulous account and analysis of the massive anti-Israel propaganda campaign conducted during the early 1980s in the course of the Lebanon war, makes eerie reading.

Much of it could be quoted, virtually unaltered, to describe the propaganda that ame into play twenty years later during July and August 2006 as Israel attempted to deal with the Iranian-sponsored Hezbollah organization that had dug itself into Lebanon just as had the PLO had done previously.

One must also note that one finds all the commonplaces Ellul identifies in the chapters on propaganda and Lebanon, and in his analysis of Christian anti-Zionism as anti-Semitism, in the material produced by organisations such as Sabeel.}

If you read French, I cannot recommend "Un Chretien Pour Israel" too highly.

When I read it, in the early 1990s, it permanently immunised me against every variety of Arab Muslim Big Lie about Israel.

"Israel, or the Jews, lost their land... during the Muslim conquest of the Middle East and North Africa"

What a bizarre thing to say. I think you need to read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish-Roman_Wars

As the sidebar of the article says, "Result: Roman victories; Jewish diaspora. Territorial changes: Judea remained a Roman Province until Arab conquest".

If you read Robert Hoyland's "Seeing Islam as Others Saw It: A Survey and Evaluation of Christian, Jewish and Zoroastrian Writings on Early Islam" it is striking how many writers of the 7th Century depict Muhammad as leading a joint Arab-Jewish campaign, based on their two peoples' shared descent from Abraham, and focussed on retrieving their jointly promised land. These non-Muslim historical sources are the basis of Crone & Cook's 1977 book, "Hagarism: The Making Of The Islamic World".

DefenderofIslam,

Hugh is a brillant thinker, historian,and writer and a refreshing voice with Robert on JW/DW as well.

The truth is that the Muslims oppressed both Jews and Christians in the holy land as dhimmis.

Keep up the good work!

bigcatgirl

I check my facts in Wikipedia. Because:

1) you can go and cross check for yourself if what I'm saying is correct.

2) if you're nonetheless sure I'm wrong, you're free to go to Wikipedia and alter the entry.

Hugh is just plain wrong about the dispersal of the Jews.

It was the Romans who expelled the Jews after the Bar Kokhba revolt. In the 4th Century Emperor Constantine banned all Jews from Jerusalem, his ban staying in force until the 7th Century. The Muslim conquests made it possible for Jews to live again in Jerusalem. When Christian Crusaders took Jerusalem in 1099 they massacred all of its Muslim and most of its Jewish inhabitants. The remaining Jews they either sold into slavery in Europe or ransomed to the Jewish community in Egypt. When the Muslim Saladin retook the city in 1187, Jews were again allowed to settle in the city.

georges

re. your first posting (and I would be very, very surprised if Hugh has not read Crone and Cook's 'Hagarism'!, it is on his list of Recommended Reading, so I am sure he has taken it into account)

if, as per the thesis of 'Hagarism' Jews in and near Byzantine-era eretz Israel were in the very early days allied to the Arab-Muslims/ 'Mohammed' then all I can say is that they got suckered, big-time.

Perhaps - like many, many other communities since - they got tricked into thinking they would have a better deal under the Arabs/ Muslims, or tricked into allying with the Arabs/ Muslims, only to be comprehensively stabbed in the back at the first opportunity. For Judenhass is hardwired into all the core texts of Islam - Qur'an Sira and Hadith - and their authoritative interpretations ever since.

The dhimmitude system, with all its cruelty and injustice, applied to Jews, Samaritans, and Christians right across the Islamosphere, including eretz Israel, prior to the Crusades, and was zealously re-applied in eretz Israel after the fall of the 'Crusader' kingdoms.

Moshe Gil's "A History of Palestine: 634-1099" deals with the pre-Crusades period, which was definitely NOT one of peace and tolerance; it was marked by Muslim massacres, rapacity, and general all-round nastiness toward the non-Muslims.

James Parkes, who was familiar with a range of original sources, Muslim and Christian and Jewish, gives a similar picture.

As for your second posting, and your remarks on the Crusaders and Jerusalem:

James Parkes also notes - from Jewish source, among others - that despite the Crusaders' exclusion of Jews from *Jerusalem* proper, Jews from neighbouring *Muslim-ruled* lands actually moved *into* the Crusader kingdoms in eretz Israel (he notes that even Muslim observers recorded the Latin kingdoms as being better governed, more peaceful and prosperous, than the Muslim lands round about! It seems the Franks were better at keeping bandits under control, [thus making life easier for Christian, Jewish and Muslim peasants and townsfolk] than were their Muslim despot neighbours).

There is a Jewish poem which declares that the sages cry out to G-d asking Him to permit them to live under His shadow (i.e. as free people) or failing that, under 'Edom' (that is, the Christians) rather than under 'Ishmael' (that is, the Arabs/ Muslims).

S Goitein's essay "Evidence on the Muslim Poll tax from non-Muslim Sources: a Geniza Survey" concluded, from his study of the Cairo Geniza, that the Muslim jizya imposed a terrible, indeed a crushing burden - 'intolerable' is the word Goitein uses - on dhimmi communities, not only in Egypt, but elsewhere.

After the Crusaders were driven out, Muslim oppression of the dhimmis resumed. The Mamluk rulers were perhaps the worst and the cruellest, but the later Turkish period - 15C -mid-19th century was pretty bad, too, from all the accounts I have seen.

And I will add , 'georges' that to speak of the lot of Jews in the whole of eretz Israel in the Byzantine, early Muslim, Crusader and later Muslim period, is NOT the same thing as to speak of what was happening in Jerusalem. Jerusalem comprised a special case; it was *not* typical. There were other places where 'crusaders' left the Jews alone.

The larger area of the 'Holy Land', with other towns and villages such as Hebron, Shechem/ Nablus, Gaza, Acre, Ramleh, Haifa and Safed, was NEVER perfectly Judenrein. There were Jewish communities inside eretz Israel, sometimes larger, sometimes smaller, throughout the entire period AD 70 - AD 1917.

There was never a time when there were not some Jewish families living in and on some part of eretz Israel.

Thank you for posting all that, dumbledoresarmy!

"there was never a time when there were not some Jewish families living in and on some part of eretz Israel."

Supposing I could prove that "some" people of Berber descent had been living continuously on some part of the British Isles for 2,000 years? Some could have come over with the Romans, and stayed for the Saxon and Norman conquests. It's not a ridiculous idea. Would that give open-ended numbers of modern-day north Africans the automatic right to settle in Britain in massive numbers, against the wishes of the current population, and with the specific objective of becoming a majority and taking over the country?

Between the start of the First Aliyah and the creation of Israel (1881-1948) the Jewish population of Palestine multiplied a hundredfold, almost entirely through immigration, mostly, but not exclusively, from Eastern Europe. The Zionists who planned, lobbied and organized such a rapid massive input of new people into Palestine were honest to each other about what they wanted - though not to others. From a letter of 1882, quoted by Benny Morris:

"If only we succeed in increasing our numbers here until we are the majority... There are now only five hundred [thousand] Arabs, who are not very strong, and from whom we shall easily take away the country if only we do it through stratagems [and] without drawing upon us their hostility before we become the strong and populous ones."

(quoted here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Aliyah)

Statements like this make the Balfour Declaration and the Mandate problematical. The Balfour Declaration stated that "nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine". But, as the above letter makes clear, the Zionist project was predicated on prejudicing the rights of these communities. Under such circumstances, conflict was inevitable.

Most of the locals the Zionists came to displace were Sunni Muslims. So Islam inevitably colours the conflict and, in my opinion, makes it far, far worse. But it is not the root cause. If the locals had been Animists or Zeus worshippers, Atheists or Zoroastrians, they would still have resisted the Zionist takeover. As Jabotinsky said in "The Iron Wall" (1923):

"Every native population in the world resists colonists as long as it has the slightest hope of being able to rid itself of the danger of being colonised. That is what the Arabs in Palestine are doing, and what they will persist in doing as long as there remains a solitary spark of hope that they will be able to prevent the transformation of "Palestine" into the "Land of Israel." "

Imagine if, tomorrow, every single Palestinian Muslim abandoned Islam and became an Atheist. The worst, most Islam-inspired acts of violence might well abate. But do you seriously think the Palestinians would suddenly feel happy about their replacement and expulsion by Zionists? Are you seriously claiming that?

Thus saith our palestinianist agitator (French? Or, more likely, Arab Muslim?) agitator: "Supposing I could prove that "some" people of Berber descent had been living continuously on some part of the British Isles for 2,000 years? Some could have come over with the Romans, and stayed for the Saxon and Norman conquests. It's not a ridiculous idea. Would that give open-ended numbers of modern-day north Africans the automatic right to settle in Britain in massive numbers, against the wishes of the current population, and with the specific objective of becoming a majority and taking over the country?"

False analogy! You've got it all ass backwards, as Martha Gellhorn once told a pro-'palestinian' propagandist. Because any Berbers in Britain would still have been johnnycomelatelys compared to the Welsh.

The correct analogy is to compare the Jews in eretz Israel - which includes a region known for thousands of years as Judea - to the Welsh in Wales or the Irish in Ireland.

In what language are the oldest placenames in Israel? Is Beer-Sheba an Arab name? Is Hebron, or Shechem, or Bethlehem? The ancient Hebrew placenames, known to archaeologists and to those familiar with ancient history as well as with the Bible, bear witness that the Hebrews - of whom the Jews are now the representative, pars pro toto - were present in the land BEFORE the Romans, the Persians, the Byzantines, and long before the Muslims (whether Arab or anything else).

(Don't even *try* to tell me 'georges' that the local Arabs are all blue-blooded Canaanites and that all modern Jews are really Khazars...I have absolutely no time for nor interest in Arab Muslim madhattery, nonsense and lies).

As the Welsh in Wales and the Irish in Ireland, to the invading Anglo-Normans, so the Jews to the Arabs (or Arabised Muslims of other sorts).

As the Tibetans to the Han Chinese, so the Jews to the Arabs (and Arabised Muslims of other sorts).

As Carnarvon and Arthur's Seat are Welsh, and Tara is Irish, and Lhasa is Tibetan, historically, socially, spiritually, so Jerusalem is Jewish.

A note on sources, for the new reader here.

'georgesdelatour', above, has referred people to 'wikipedia'. I guess it's better than referring people to 'electronicintifada' - but not much.

Now, I make use of wikipedia for some things - such as for a quick preliminary definition of 'neuroscience'.

But wikipedia is the last place on earth that I would consult for 'facts' about the dispute between the Jews and the Arabs (or more broadly, between the Jews and the Muslims, for everything that makes that dispute so intractable is, in the end, due to the fact that the behaviour of the Arabs - whether they are Muslims, or dhimmi Christians with a long history of Jew-hatred going all the way back to Byzantium and exacerbated by their Muslim overlords' policy of playing one group of dhimmis off against another - is governed entirely by Islam).

Basically, the ARAB propagandists are diligent, and persistent, and malicious.

I say to new readers here: Crone and Cook's 'Hagarism', mentioned by 'georgesd' has its merits. But read it yourself; don't rely on whatever wikipedia tells you about it.

As for the history: don't bother with wikipedia. Start off with Part One of Andrew Bostom, 'The Legacy of Islamic Antisemitism', first, before you read anything else.

Then read the article at this link - "The Arabs of Palestine", 1961 - by Martha Gellhorn.

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/196110/gellhorn

If 'georgesdelatour' tries to kick up a stink about her, ignore him: read it anyway. You will find the opening paragraph very useful, for it contains a lapidary statement of what we would now call the 'Arab Muslim narrative'; you will find the concluding paragraphs eerily prescient.

Personally, everything I have learned from every other source tells me that Martha hit the nail on the head.

For a most accessible and scholarly overview of the sweep of history, read James Parkes ('Whose Palestine?' or the later, updated edition 'Whose Land?'; and 'The Story of Jerusalem).

Moshe Gil and S Goitein, aforementioned. The sections dealing with 'palestine' and 'syria' in Bat Yeor's 'The dhimmi' and 'The decline of Eastern Christianity Under Islam', and Andrew Bostom's 'Legacy of Jihad'. And Katz, 'Battleground', and Efraim Karsh on 'Islamic Imperialism'.

Yaakov Lozowick's 'Right to Exist' is pretty good.

I have just bought, and will soon read, Roy Carlson's "From Cairo to Damascus". When I have read it I will share here anything particularly interesting and thought-provoking.

Old books, really old books, pre-1880, are very handy. Bostom's and Bat Yeor's bibliographies list quite a lot of them.

But as I have said: it was Jacques Ellul in "Un Chretien Pour Israel" who immunised me, permanently, against Arab Muslim Big Lies - a fair sample of which, in their more subtle incarnations, have been provided here, and on one or two other threads, by 'georgesdelatour'.

So, O new reader, if you have even high school French, track down Ellul's book, then dig out your French grammar and dictionary, and put in the hard yards...it will be well worth your while.

dumbledoresarmy,

Thank-you for your indepth presentation on the facts about Jewish settlement in Isreal before the creation of the present day Isreal.

I am a UK Citizen, half Welsh by birth. For me, the overriding issue would not be whose very distant ancestors had made it to Britain first after the last Ice Age. I'd leave that question to the archeologists. The overriding issue would be fairness to the living. If massive numbers of some politically motivated group were immigrating into Britain, specifically to effect a massive transformation of its polity, to the disadvantage of its current inhabitants - well, I'd oppose that. Even if they were these people:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_settlement_in_Argentina

It's a recipe for civil strife and disaster.

Excuse me if I'm repeating myself, but I really feel you're not even beginning to address my main point. The locals who formed a a majority on the eve of Zionist colonization were bound to oppose it, because, as Jabotinsky said, "they understand as well as we [the Zionists] what is not good for them". They would have opposed it if they had been Baptists, Sikhs or worshippers of Thor. Jabotinsky could see that. Why can't you?

Regarding Wikipedia: if you can pinpoint specific inaccuracies I have quoted, I will attempt to correct them myself. I can't promise they will be accepted.

Let's hear the words, circa 1200 AD, of the Jewish scholar and physician Maimonides to the Jews of Yemen who were facing threats of forcible conversion to Islam :

"God has hurled us in the midst of this people, the Arabs, who have persecuted us severely, and passed baneful and discriminatory legislation against us...

"Never did a nation molest, degrade, debase and hate us as much as they...

"we were dishonoured by them beyond human endurance, and had to put up with their fabrications".

He's not talking about the Nazis. He's not talking about Christian Spain, or Germany, or Tsarist Russia. He's talking about the Ummah, the Empire of Islam, of which he had had experience both in Spain and in Egypt.

That was in 1200.

If 'georgesdelatour' wants us to believe that the local Arab Muslims (and all the rest of the Muslim world!) hate the Israelis simply and solely because the Pooor Palestinian Indigenous Aborigines/sarc/ have been displaced by the Evil Alien Invading Imperialist Jooz, then all I can say to *that*, in the light of the evidence provided by Maimonides (and a mountain of others that I could adduce as well) is:

pull the other one, mate, it has bells on.

So let me make sure I understand you. You honestly and sincerely believe that, had the Arab majority at the time of Balfour been secular Atheists, they would have been completely happy to accept massive Zionist immigration designed to turn them into a minority? Are you serious?

georgesdelatour,

Jabotinsky had simply forgotten that the Jewish Zionists were doing was "coming home" to the land that both history and faith says is theirs after all. Proof is the sucess in the crops and other products that comtempary Isreal has given to the world in free trade. The land knows who are the real owners.

Ladies and gentlemen

you observe, I hope, how 'georgesdelatour' is still frantically attempting to distract; to assert that Islam is entirely irrelevant to the dispute between the Jews of Israel and the Arab Muslims.

Like a stage magician's 'plant' in the audience, 'georges' is eagerly encouraging us to focus our gaze on the pretty girl in spangled tights (the 'Palestinian' nation, the 'Palestinian people' [whom he seems to want us to think are to the Jews, even to the Jews of the 'arab' world or the Jews of Safed and Jerusalem and Hebron even in the 15th, 16th, 17th C, or the 1840s, as the Sioux are to the Anglo-Americans or the Incas to the Spanish!]) singing her plaintive song about 'Palestinian national feeling'; it is inconvenient for 'georges', perhaps, that some of us remember that that same pretty girl in tights, at exactly the same time, sang an entirely different song, when the audience being urged by Arab Muslims to hand over money and weapons to kill Jews, was not American or British but communist and Soviet)...

but never, never, never are we to fix a steely eye upon the magician, upon that aggressive supremacist totalitarian war cult that is Islam, the Arab Imperial Religion, which has suffused the mindset and governed every aspect of life for all the peoples between Algeria and the East Indies for a thousand years.

Oh, and we must look away from the magician's hands, at all costs; we must shut our eyes and pretend that the Muslims don't have a whole carefully worked-out playbook on how to conduct Total War upon all Non-Muslims everywhere and every when; and that that playbook - hudna, taqiyya, kitman, Treaty of Hudaybiyya, Mecca-Medina goodcop-badcop, 'split the camp', all the rest of it - has not been followed to the letter by the Muslims against the Jews, long before 1948, and on every occasion since.

Me, I'm ignoring the pretty girl in tights. I am watching the magician's hands. I am keeping my eyes fixed steadily on the goals and doctrines - especially the 'rules for war-making' - of Islam. I remember Jacques Ellul's masterly deconstruction of the 1968 'Palestinian' Charter, at the end of which analysis he - trained sociologist, student of the history of institutions - observed that that supposedly 'secular' and 'nationalist' charter was "a perfect expression of the Jihad".

He saw through illusions to reality.

The words of another Islamosavvy man, Dr A Carlebach, in Ma'ariv, October 1955, have been much quoted here recently.

I will not repeat his ruthlessly accurate assessment of what Islam does to the mind, to the emotions, to society and government and the earth itself. I will here state what he said about the political dispute.

QUOTE: "We pile sin upon crime when we distort the picture and reduce the discussion to a conflict of border between Israel and her neighbors.

"First of all, it is not the truth.

"The heart of the conflict is not the question of the borders; it is the question of Muslim psychology.....

‘Moreover, to present the problem as a conflict between two similar parts is to provide the Arabs with the weapon of a claim that is not theirs. {NOTA BENE - 'a weapon that is not theirs' - dda}.

"If the discussion with them is truly a political one, then it can be seen from both sides.

"Then we appear as those who came to a country that was entirely Arab, and we conquered and implanted ourselves as an alien body among them, and we loaded them with refugees and constitute a military danger for them, etc. etc. ...one can justify this or that side--and such a presentation, sophisticated and political, of the problem is understandable for European minds--at our expense.

‘The Arabs raise claims that make sense to the Western understanding of simple legal dispute.

‘But in reality, who knows better than us that such is not the source of their hostile stand?

"All those political and social concepts are never theirs.

"Occupation by force of arms, in their own eyes, in the eyes of Islam, is not at all associated with injustice.

"To the contrary, it constitutes a certificate and demonstration of authentic ownership.

"The sorrow for the refugees, for the expropriated brothers, has no room in their thinking.

"Allah expelled, Allah will care.

"Never has a Muslim politician been moved by such things (unless, indeed, the catastrophe endangered his personal status). If there were no refugees and no conquest, they would oppose us just the same." END QUOTE

(To get the full meaning of that final sentence, I repeat, re-read Part One of Andrew Bostom, 'The Legacy of Islamic Antisemitism: From Sacred Texts to Solemn History').

Final observation: an analogy that Gellhorn suggested at the end of her article 'The Arabs of Palestine', that I think has some merit.

As the Sudetendeutsch to the Third Reich, so the local Arab Muslims (in and around Israel) to the Empire of Islam.







Not Peace But A Sword by Robert SpencerDid Muhammad Exist? The Muslim Brotherhood in America, by Robert SpencerIslamophobia: Thoughtcrime of the Totalitarian FutureMuslim Persecution of Christians, by Robert Spencer Obama and IslamThe Ground Zero Mosque: Second Wave of the 9/11 Attacks
The Complete Infidel’s Guide to the Koran


Stealth Jihad


The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam


The Truth About Muhammad


What they’re saying about Robert Spencer
“My comrade-in-arms, my pal, my buddy.”
Oriana Fallaci

“Robert Spencer incarnates intellectual courage when, all over the world, governments, intellectuals, churches, universities and media crawl under a hegemonic Universal Caliphate’s New Order. His achievement in the battle for the survival of free speech and dignity of man will remain as a fundamental monument to the love of, and the self-sacrifice for, liberty.”
Bat Ye’or

“Robert Spencer is indefatigable. He is keeping up the good fight long after many have already given up. I do not know what we would do without him. I appreciate all the intelligence and courage it takes to keep going despite the appeasement of the West.”
Ibn Warraq

“America's most informed, fearless, and compelling voice on modern jihadism.”
Andrew C. McCarthy, Senior Fellow at National Review Institute

“Robert Spencer is the leading voice of scholarship and reason in a world gone mad. If the West is to be saved, we will owe Robert Spencer an incalculable debt.”
Pamela Geller, Atlas Shrugs

"The consummate Islam critic and expert." — Bruce Bawer

“Over the years, we have become friends, and I have received his assistance on several pieces of legislation I proposed.”
Former Congressman Tom Tancredo

“Few people are capable of applying scholarship, analytical reasoning, and objectivity to their topic -- while simultaneously being readable and witty -- as can Robert Spencer.”
Raymond Ibrahim

“A national treasure...The acclaimed scholar of Islam.”
Frank Gaffney, Center for Security Policy

“I am indeed honored to call him my friend.”
Brad Thor, novelist

“A top American analyst of Islam....A serious scholar...I learn from him.”
Daniel Pipes

“A brilliant scholar and writer.”
Douglas Murray

"One of my best teachers."
Ashraf Ramelah, Voice of the Copts

“Thank God there’s at least one man with balls left in the West.”
Kathy Shaidle, Five Feet of Fury

“I read people like [Mark Steyn] and Bob Spencer and the rest of them, and I say, ‘Boortz, you’re pretending you’re an author. These people really are. They really write some entertaining, some standup stuff.’”
Neal Boortz

“Robert Spencer is the Stephen King of Jihad.”
Chris Gaubatz, Muslim Mafia

“Armed with facts and fearlessness, Spencer stands up for Western civilization.”
Michelle Malkin

“Widely read in conservative foreign policy circles.”
New York Times

“Widely read in many quarters in Washington.”
Washington Post

“A canny operative who likely has the inside track on the State Department’s Middle East affairs desk should the tea party win the White House.”
New York Magazine

“A hero of the American right.”
Karen Armstrong

"The leading anti-Islamic intellectual in the United States....The go-to Islam expert for the right wing."
Salon Magazine

“Robert Spencer is an Edward Said turned upside down.”
Stephen Suleyman Schwartz

“One of the nation's most notorious Islamophobes.”
Hamas-linked CAIR

"Geller and Spencer are probably the most important propagandizing Islamophobes in the world. These people's voices speak very loudly — not just here in the United States but overseas."
Heidi Beirach, Southern Poverty Law Center

“Satanic ignoramus.”
Khaleel Mohammed

“The Likud anti-Christ.”
Dar al-Hayat newspaper (Saudi Arabia)

“Zionist Crusader, missionary of hate, counter-Islam consultant.”
Al-Qaeda’s Adam Gadahn, “Azzam the American”



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