Iran successfully tests rocket capable of carrying satellites, among other things

The same technology used to put satellites into space can also be used to deliver warheads.
From the article.

It's worse than this. It also implies that capability to deliver these warheads over intercontinental distances.

IRAN is walking the same path as Nazi Germany prior to WWII.Putting off STOPPING them is only making them Bolder as well as Stronger!
Pakistan is another JIHADI NIGHTMARE about to get worse,and they already have the "Islamic Bomb"!
REMEMBER the line from the movie, "THE SIEGE":
"The Most Committed Win"!It's TRUE-We Must be MORE COMMITTED than them, despite what the TREASONOUS Left-Wing whines about!

As noted here, the same technology is involved in ballistic missile development, and close Iranian ally North Korea has set a strong precedent for using a "space" program as a cover for its missile projects.
.............................

I hardly want to laud George Bush as a great political thinker--he is truly clueless about many important things. He was roundly sneered at, though, for his linking of North Korea and Iran in his famous "Axis of Evil" speech--but he was right. North Korea, driven by its hatred of America and the West and the desire for ready cash, has done a great deal to facitate Iran's nuclear program.

We have seen these alliances elsewhere, too--like pro-communist Venezuela sidling up to Cuba and even Iran, and Russia sending nuclear materials and technology to Iran.

more from above:

"Saturday's test of the two-stage rocket, called the Safir, or Ambassador..."

The "Ambassador", huh? I wonder if this is what Barack Obama has in mind when he talks about diplomacy with Iran?

"He [Bush] was roundly sneered at, though, for his linking of North Korea and Iran in his famous "Axis of Evil" speech--but he was right. North Korea, driven by its hatred of America and the West and the desire for ready cash, has done a great deal to facitate Iran's nuclear program."
-- from a posting above

Actually, the worst damage was done by A. Q. Khan, who because of Western -- American, German, and Dutch -- inattention, was not only allowed to steal nuclear secrets from Western labs, but also to return to Pakistan where, supported directly by the I.S.I. (in up to its neck in the whole business), which in turn had discretionary money because of the American aid that, through thick and thin, kept being sent to Pakistan (including plenty of military aid, because American generals found Pakistani generals so ramrod straight, so terry-thomased moustachioued, so we-hate-Communism-too, so...so everything that inspired such trust, a trust that at long last, and only after the last infusion, just since 2001, of another $30 billion, has finally come to an end. And A. Q. Khan helped the North Korean project.

Bush has sleepwalked through all of this business with Iran, never realizing that the only two things the Americans and other Infidels should be doing is preventing any Muslim state from acquiring major (WMD) weaponry (and preventing the ability to deliver such weaponry), and also in keeping the Camp of Islam as weak, as divided, and demoralized, as possible, both in Dar al-Islam, and where Muslims have foolishly been allowed entry into the Western nations, in Dar al-Harb.

He clings still to Tarbaby Iraq, and at least some people -- Admiral Mullen, Secretary Gates -- apparently think it more important to do nothing to upset the entirely imaginary applecart of "prosperity" and "reconiciliation" and all the rest of it in Tarbaby Iraq, than in attacking -- not invading Iran, but attacking -- Iran's nuclear project.

A near total-failure.

And what does Barack Obama promise? Oh, he promises that he will withdraw American forces from Iraq (for all the wrong reasons, but never mind) and put them (for all the wrong reasons, and let's mind very much) in Afghanistan. Out of the goddam frying pan, into the goddam fire.

He, like Bush, has no understanding or even desire to understand what Islam incuclates, presumably because his information about Islam comes, like that of Wolfowitz, from his stay in Indonesia, and his deep internalizing of the cliches of the age (We All Want The Same Thing, All Religions Are Just The Same, etc.), and his being surrounded by those whoise entire professional lives have been based on wilfully ignoring Islam -- for example, there is the appalling Dennis Ross, who if he had understood Islam would also have understood why his shuttle diplomacy and peace-processing missed the main point, and the main point is that no matter what Israel gives up (those "hard choices for peace" that are always being invoked-- and always "hard choices" for Israel alone), this will only whet, not sate, the appetites of those who, whether Slow Jihadists of Fatah, or Fast Jihadists of Hamas, or Arabs other than the Gazan Arabs and the "West Bank" Arabs, all agree that no matter what differences they may have on tactics and timing, Israel, the Infidel nation-state of Israel, is an intolerable presence and must, simply must,go.

"In 2005, it launched its first commercial satellite on a Russian rocket in a joint project with Moscow, which appears to be the main partner in transferring space technology to Iran."

The Russian partnership with Iran seems shortsighted at best. What do they think Iran will do with all of this technology? Use it for peaceful ends? Given Iran's proximity to the "stans" of the former USSR, and the desire for the ummah to unite, do the Russians really think Iranian rockets will be aimed solely at Western interests and that an armed Iran will respect Russia's interests in what it calls "the near abroad"?

Obviously the survival of Israel, and threats to parts of southern Europe, do not sufficiently impress or move those who make policy in Washington and other Western capitals.

Perhaps, then, given the fantastic power of the Saudi lobby, this Saudi column (which could not be published without, in the end, approval from higher up) will be carefully taken into account:

From MEMRI:

In his August 4, 2008 column in the liberal Arab e-journal Elaph, Saudi columnist Saleh Al-Rashed argued that the Gulf states should urge the West to attack Iran before it acquires nuclear weapons.

Following are excerpts from the column:

"'One cannot avoid the inevitable' - this adage came to mind when I read the pronouncement by Iran's Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps commander Mohammad 'Ali Ja'fari, who said: 'My country is easily capable of closing the Straits of Hormuz, the main passageway for oil freighters, if the country is attacked due to its nuclear program.'

"In my estimation, confronting this country, which is trying to gain the time necessary to acquire nuclear weapons, is unavoidable. The possession of nuclear weapons by a state like Iran, which is ideological to the core, is more or less like Osama bin Laden having a nuclear bomb. They are two of a kind. Despite the difference in their turbans and in their religious beliefs, the end result is the same.

"Perhaps it is our bad luck that we [i.e. Saudi Arabia] and the Gulf states would be the first to suffer from a military confrontation with Iran and from its response, and the problem would become even more grave if Iran succeeded in closing the Straits of Hormuz, as the IRGC commander threatened. But our situation with Iran is like that of the sick man who refuses to have his illness treated with cauterization. Yes, the pain of the burning is horrible, but this malady can only be treated through this military confrontation -cauterization.

"History has taught us that ideological countries only pay heed to victory over their ideology… They never accept any halfway situation, even when they find themselves on the brink of disaster."

"Confrontation Is The Solution"; "The Absolute Priority Must Be Our Strategic Security in the Gulf"

"Confrontation is the solution, and there is no solution but confrontation. The game of the carrot and the stick played by the U.S. and E.U. will be to no avail.

"At present, we are suffering from two things: Iran's attempts [to gain] regional hegemony, and its attempts to impose its influence via its sectarian allies - the fifth column of Arab Shi'ite fundamentalists. Imagine what Iran's influence, hegemony, and fifth column would be like if Iran had a nuclear bomb.

"Perhaps it is a strange coincidence that, this time around, our strategic interests coincide with those of Israel. The regime of the mullahs in Iran is our enemy, and at the same time it is an enemy not just of Israel, but of world peace and security.

"I know that the Arab demagogues stand together indiscriminately with anyone who is against Israel and America. But we need to not be swept away by these demagogues as we were in the past. This time, the absolute priority must be our strategic security in the Gulf, which is threatened by Iran - even if this comes at the expense of the Palestinian cause.

"In politics, nothing prevents you from allying with the devil for the sake of your interests. This is what confronting the Iranian danger - which is close - demands of us. This issue, in my estimation, cannot suffer delay or hesitation. Every passing day benefits Iran.

"Thus, we need to push the world powers, and especially the U.S. and the E.U., towards military confrontation to neutralize the Iranian enemy, whatever the cost, before the nuclear bomb makes it too late - even if it is against the will of the Arabs of the north."

I remember the silence when Clinton gave away that technology to the Chinese during his years as president. And the happiness out of the news media when China was starting their own space programs and the utter stupidity of it all since the technology that Clinton gave away was to be able to aim nukes at us in space. The Chinese don't just explore space for no reason at all.

Idiots.

Anyway, we should be able to just blow the thing to allah who isn't too far away - just a moon walk away!

I think that the Israelis will be forced to deal with this. Time is not standing still waiting for our new president to be voted in and the Iranians think we are stymied by that. (well, we are sort of due to a Congress that is so totally pathetic that I don't want to think about them right now)

And we will be a sorry group of people if Barack Hussein Obama gets voted in - I don't think his puppet masters will go for striking against any muslim nation whether it be shiite or sunni.

And I suppose it could deliver an EMP weapon.

One must not forget that domestic audience is one of the biggest intended targets. The government of president Ahmadinejad has not done a good job with the economy. In fact it is getting worst every day. Therefore to make up for it, he wants to show that Iran is making strides in other areas. In the long run, this is unlikely to help him. What matters most is what Ayatollah Khamenei thinks of him, and for now, satellite or otherwise, he seems to have the backing of the supreme leader. This could change if strong sanctions are imposed.
Meir Javedanfar - coauthor of "The Nuclear Sphinx of Tehran: Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and the State of Iran"
Tel Aviv

"Perhaps it is our bad luck that we [i.e. Saudi Arabia] and the Gulf states would be the first to suffer from a military confrontation with Iran and from its response, and the problem would become even more grave if Iran succeeded in closing the Straits of Hormuz, as the IRGC commander threatened."

Bad luck? I'd call it divine retribution. And it couldn't happen to a nicer bunch!

"Thus, we need to push the world powers, and especially the U.S. and the E.U., towards military confrontation to neutralize the Iranian enemy, whatever the cost, before the nuclear bomb makes it too late - even if it is against the will of the Arabs of the north."

And why should any of us risk our own lives for people who are themselves out to destroy us? Are we supposed to be grateful that you are "allying with the devil for the sake of your interests"? And what will we get in return? Peace with Islam? Don't make me laugh!

This "liberal" commentator is calling on the devil, aka the US and the EU, for protection. Meanwhile he and his Muslim friends have had no problem going against the West. Let them fight their own battles. They want jihad, so let them fight THEIR OWN jihad against Iran.

If we go against Iran it should be for our own purposes and we should make it clear to the Sunnis that this is not being done for them and that if they keep up the jihad against us OR against Israel, THEY will be next on OUR list.

"Meanwhile, Iran claimed Sunday it has increased the range of its warplanes, allowing them to fly as far as Israel and back without refueling."

No need. It will be a one way trip.

Well, if an Iranian missile can lift a nuke to orbit, no other weapon could do as much damage to us as a nuclear burst 150 to 200 mi over the central US. It need not be designed as an EMP weapon. The x ray burst would take care of any electron cascade needed. You might not even know if one went off. Everything just stops. Cold. Dead. And nothing will resurrect an EMP fried chip.

Every car, phone, refrigerator, radio, computer, light bulb, calculator, copier, modem, microwave, TV, airplane, GPS, freezer, cash register, bank vault, timer, most clocks, and anything else with a chip inside would be fried.

Luckily my rakes and shovels will still work.

America as we know it would be thrust into the 18th century in an instant. Society would collapse within minutes and every local and regional group of jihadists would be able to terrorize the nation with impunity.

Yet Mr Bush refuses to act against any future Iranian or existing Turkish nukes. His Ummah friendly advisers distract and mislead at every step.

Ladies and gentlemen, you will be on your own. No police, no firemen, and no civil order. And yet we do nothing.

Wrap any critical electronics in aluminum foil or put them in a foil covered, grounded box if you want them to work.

Our only hope lies with Israel where the people understand that to survive as a nation you must act or perish.

Iran would need many nukes to destroy the US. That will take years. But they can essentially incapacitate/destroy the US, Canada and Northern Mexico with one EMP device, detonated at the right altitude, as a10billr says. Let's put that in our pipe and smoke it.

Well, if an Iranian missile can lift a nuke to orbit, no other weapon could do as much damage to us as a nuclear burst 150 to 200 mi over the central US.

While that may be true, what goes around comes around. American military is not consigned to the central US. We have many ways of giving them what they give us. And a lot more countries than Iran will experience the effect.
Unless an Iranian missile can cause a global shutdown, it can be answered in kind.

The US won't be the only country affected. Global markets will go bust. It is up to ALL nations of the world to stop Iran or suffer the consequences. It is not the sole province of the US or of Israel.

There is more to Iran's threat of obtaining nuclear weapons than whether it will destroy Tel Aviv, or even whether it can reach the U.S. mainland. All it needs to do is loft the missile into the lower portions of the magnetosphere, to at altitude of, say, 400 km, and then let it explode. Such experiments were carried out in the late 50's and early 60's with high altitude nuclear tests in the Pacific. The result was the creation of an unexpectedly long lived artificial radiation belt of energetic (> ~MeV) particles - it was still there more than a decade later.

The first satellite was launched by the Soviet Union in 1957, shortly followed by the U.S. in 1958. At the time the atmospheric test ban treaty took effect in 1963 there were only a very few satellites in orbit. In the intervening 45 years satellite communications infrastructure was built involving thousands of satellites, utilized by almost every segment of society, industry and, of course, the military. A single upper atmospheric nuclear burst would bring down a good part of this infrastructure. Such an air burst could be carried out entirely within the national boundaries of many countries (including Iran), or over the ocean if the country has access to it (e.g., North Korea).

Energetic particles affect electronic circuitry, and enough of them induce failure. The length of time it takes for a component to fail depends on the total dosage, but any amount of radiation over and above the design specs of satellite components based on models of the radiation belts will shorten the lifetime. It would be impossible to build new replacement satellites fast enough to keep up with the failures, and even if it were, with satellite costs running in the hundreds of millions of dollars each, the cost would be prohibitive. All technical systems in low earth orbit such as the defense networks of practically all nations, financial netoworks, GPS and the navigational capabilities this has provided to airplanes, cargo and tanker ships, and commercial surface traffic, etc., would be affected. The results would be catastrophic for technically advanced countries. On the other hand, agrarian cultures would hardly be affected, except perhaps insofar as it would disrupt the West's ability to deliver aid to keep them from starving.

Apparently there is no known defense against such an action short of either destroying the nuclear capabilities before the launch can even occur, or by intercepting the missile in its boost phase before it has a chance to rise very high above the launch site. Once the high altitude burst occurs the damage will already be done, and many satellite systems will start failing.

The existence of this threat, which has been recognized for a long time but not received wide public attention, is one of the many pressing reasons for opposing the acquisition of nuclear weapons by "rogue" states.

Islam = Thanatos, codified.

If you remember the US fired with a missile at one of its satelites that was going down anyhow. l would think this was a display to iranians and their ilk that the US can and will take down their satelites when it wishes. We need to understand the US is still much further ahead of these roque states and even China. not to rest, but if the O gets elected, he will slash military research. one more reason to not vote for O.

Many americans do not feel directly threatened as long as a war is somewhere else and not here. Be assured that with an Iranian satellite weapon, we are all threatened.

If Iran develops the capability of putting a satellite into orbit, then they can also put a nuke weapon in orbit. One such weapon could deliver an extremely severe blow to all of us. Only 1% of Americans understand the nature of a nuclear EMP threat but 100% of our enemies understand it very well and the total devastation to us that it could inflict. Just imagine our modern society living without electricity and computers for six months to a year or more. We have no defense against such a weapon.

If you have the stomach for it, you can read what the Russians contemplated doing to us years ago in Congressional testimony at:

http://cryptome.org/bartlett-060905.txt

Just in case this seems like fairy tale stuff, you can take a look at the Canadian nuclear EMP testing facility at:

http://www.ottawa.drdc-rddc.gc.ca/html/rew_333_emp_e.html

We all need to understand this weapon because an informed public is our best defense and you can be assured that Iran DOES fully understand this weapon.

While that may be true, what goes around comes around. American military is not consigned to the central US. We have many ways of giving them what they give us. And a lot more countries than Iran will experience the effect.
Unless an Iranian missile can cause a global shutdown, it can be answered in kind.

The US won't be the only country affected. Global markets will go bust. It is up to ALL nations of the world to stop Iran or suffer the consequences. It is not the sole province of the US or of Israel.

PMK

I respect your argument of mutual assured destruction. Our military subs would be able to deal a totally devastating blow to Iran et al. But would they? No one knows how they would target their missiles since it would depend on politics and an EMP would eliminate politics in the USA for a long time. You cannot have politics without communication.

We need to have public awareness on the EMP weapon so that our politicians will develop some policy like MAD. The policy would have to be in advance of any attack. Then our military would know what to do and Iran et al would know what is coming for sure. Another question is, does Iran leadership really care if they take incoming nukes. They seem to have a survivalist mentality and have said they can survive nukes better than Israel (and us perhaps?).

The problem I see is that most people take comfort in the fact that one nuke will hit only one city and that most of us don't live in that city. The nuclear EMP weapon dispels that argument.

The existence of this threat, which has been recognized for a long time but not received wide public attention, is one of the

Eastview

I second everything you said on EMP weapons.

You're all fools if you think our government hasn't been preparing for this, especially in light of the information presented above.
You alll love to engage in fear-mongering, rather than muster the cojones to formulate a plan to defeat the enemy. P*ssies!

From what I've read of EMP weapons, there are defenses, but they are awfully expensive, and/or impractical.
One is to protect our electronic installations by placing them in "Faraday Cages", which insulate them from the EMP particles. I believe that a lot of our most vital strategic communications -- like between the White House, the Pentagon, NORAD, NATO, major defense installations,etc -- are thus protected. But of course this is impractical for most purposes. Virtually all of our transportation -- cars and trucks, aircraft, railroads -- are controlled by solid-state electronics. Not a single modern car would run after its spark-control computer was fried by an EMP. Likewise, our electric-transmission lines and our telecommunications are controlled by solid-state electronics.
A second defense would be to provide some back-up systems based on earlier technology. An EMP in 1940 would have had little effect on the country. The motors in all our transportation machinery were controlled mechanically, not electronically. Our communications were largely land-line telephone and telegraph, switched mechanically. And even our electonics would have been little affected -- vacuum-tubes are so crude and robust they can largely withstand an EMP.
Of course, we can't go back to mechanical carburetors for all our cars, and modern jets wouldn't fly without modern electornic controls. But we can provide some protections. Replacement electronic kits for all sorts of military purposes could be kept in secure Faraday Cages. Many military vehicles these days are built on a modular basis, for ease of maintenance. Faulty or damaged bits can be fixed simply by replacing the damaged module with a fresh one.

You're all fools if you think our government hasn't been preparing for this, especially in light of the information presented above.
You alll love to engage in fear-mongering, rather than muster the cojones to formulate a plan to defeat the enemy. P*ssies!

CGW

If you have evidence of a plan or even a hint of a government plan, please share with us. I know for fact that other than military combat systems, nothing in our country is hardened for EMP.

Also, here's my plan to defeat the enemy. Nuke Mecca, Madina, and all other Islamic religious centers. Then give them an ultimatum. Get peaceful or we will make pieces of you. We need to toughen up with our military. Right now they operate like a meals on wheels outfit.

I agree with your plan. That's the kind of talk I like to hear!

If Israel would hurry up, that would lessen all worst-case probabilities.

CGW

Re: Israel. Agreed

Spot On,
It's not so much MAD but that if they knock out our systems, we can knock out theirs. Any attack on the US would likely affect Canada and Mexico as well. If we attacked Iran the same way, a lot of Arab countries would be powerless. Would the oil continue to pump?
I would have to assume that our military has standing orders on what to do if we are attacked with an EMP. I base that on the cold war scenario. I think they figured something like ten minutes warning that a missile was being fired and on its way to your location. Even then a launch wouldn't be TOTALLY unexpected. There would have been preparations that would have to have been noticed by others and by defense satellites. With the many satellites that we have in orbit, unless the time barrier is broken and a satellite can reach its designated point in just a few seconds, there would be time for SOME communications between the military and DC before everything shut down.
But suppose we did nothing? This EMP shuts down electronics all over the US. Thanks to globalization and the internet, we have people in India monitoring software and doing things that were once done in the US. Could that communication continue? Thanks to FISA and the battle over warrants, we're finding out just how much traffic comes through the US system, even if it's between two different countries. Networks have builtin redundancies to get around a bad connection but are there enough backups to replace the entire American network at once? Maybe there are. I don't know. Would the world economy continue without a hitch if the US economy just shut down?
That's why I think it's the responsibility of all nations, and not just Israel or the US. Those in the neighborhood have a better vantage point. Even if it's in different ways, they'll suffer just as much as we would in the event of such an attack.

PMK

Your points are well taken and it is anybody's guess as to what would actually happen. Mexico and Canada would very much be affected. My main concern with this whole thing is that the military is in no way capable of fixing the problem if such a weapon is detonated in the right place. Secondly only 1% of our population has the slightest inkling that such weaponry exists. At present, Russia and China are the only ones with this EMP weapon. We do not have this weapon and I am not sure we need it.

We would definitely be paralysed if we took a hit with this weapon. The federal government could do little to help us. Local cities, churches, and towns would help most.

With only 1% of our people knowing about this, our politicians will never spend any money on preparation or defense of EMP attack. They have convinced themselves that ABM is the best defense. Maybe they are right. Perception is reality to them. Our enemies don't have this problem. That gives our enemies a tremendous advantage. That is the problem.

Spot On,
You say we don't have this weapon but, judging from the many entries I've read here, I thought any nuclear blast at a high enough altitude might produce the same effect. This suggests that any country with both a nuclear weapon and missile capability could do it.
Based on Eastview's description of the ramifications, it sounds like the effect could well be global, no matter where it happens.
Countries that aren't directly affected would feel the effects soon after, if any of them are directly dependent on advanced countries for aid. There won't be any. The UN will be useless. There would probably be greatly reduced aviation. We had thousands of planes either in US airspace or en route when 9/11 happened. Our airspace was closed for three days. The wake of an EMP would probably be greater. Only the most necessary flights would be allowed, if they could fly at all. Even countries that don't lose their own electronics will feel the effects of a bigger world.
The EMP doesn't sound so bad because it doesn't kill people right away, but its effects seem no different than all-out nuclear war. A lot of people will die in the aftermath if they are dependent on technology for their survival.

You are correct about any nuclear explosion at altitude but Russia and China have enhanced the EMP effect by a factor of at least ten. That makes it that more effective in killing the grid.

As I understand it, it is no big secret as to how to EMP enhance the bomb. Scientists have this all figured out but the USA has not buit such a bomb and the other two have.

I would say that this is our major vulnerability to a ruthless enemy. They could actually wipe us out with one of them. I don't see regular nukes on cities the same way. They would be devastating to those residents in that city and possibly a million casualties. this is unimagineable but to have 100 - 200 million casualties nationwide is utterly unimagineable.

This gets back to the problem of getting the attention of the public on this matter. I think it may be hopeless and if we keep going on and on with Iran, they will get the right goods to make it happen at some point.

Thus, Israel is our best hope at this point. They probably are going to take out Iran's nuke facilities and maybe solve the problem for us.

spot on

you wrote 'local churches, towns and villages would help most'.

Yes.

Fuggedabout being lone survivalists with a gun and a stockpile.

Remember the fundamental building blocks, the 'grammar' of kafir civilisation: 1. Oath-keeping/ Covenant/ Agreement 2. Do as you would be done by (ie. Cooperation and Reciprocity).

Start building low-level civil society - now. If you get along with at least some of your neighbours and they know and like you, then you can all pitch in together and pool resources and knowhow.

Think of the local-level community groups you already belong to; and if you don't belong to one, JOIN. Neighbourhood Watch. Church (don't forget: a church with bell/s = low-tech community communications system). Synagogue. Veterans' association. PTA (P & C, in Australia). Boy Scouts. Girl Guides. Pony Clubs...Pony Express, anyone? Cycling clubs. Running clubs.

The only 'cop shop' that will matter is your local police. If enough law-abiding locals are prepared to back them up, things will hold together.

Same deal with the fire brigade, school and hospital.

Gardeners, and community gardens; and Wild Foods enthusiasts, who know - and can teach others - which mushroom is safe and which is not, which fruit or wild green is safe, or not. Google 'permaculture' and 'Slow Food' and 'community supported agriculture' and 'community gardens' and see what you find.

There's a lot of people out there besides the Amish who have vegie gardens and chicken-yards.

There are country towns in Australia that already have formal and informal barter systems that bypass currency - see 'Maleny' and 'LETS'.

Think about the 'redundant' systems that already exist. All those steam train enthusiasts, for one; there actually *are* people, in the West, in Australia, Canada, the USA, England, who know - not only how to run, and drive, a steam train, but - even more importantly - how to BUILD one. There would be people who know how to build a basic shortwave radio, from scratch. There are people who maintain bullock teams. There are people who know how to navigate the old-fashioned way; who know how to sail an ocean-going boat.

Vintage and veteran cars and tractors, if uncontaminated by modern electronics, would still run. There are people who collect those things, fix them, and know how to maintain them.

There still are, here and there, smiths, and farriers. I think you'd be surprised how many people, out of pure enthusiasm, practise ancient crafts.

It is all THOSE people that western governments should have on an emergency checklist, as a top priority to keep alive and functioning.

Anyone with a shovel and a backyard - or a park - has the capacity to create a safe trench latrine/ earth closet for personal or neighbourhood use if the sewage and water-pumping fails.

Here in Australia, more and more people are acquiring rainwater tanks. This means that if something fries the electronics involved in getting water from reservoir to city, all those people with stored water can still get by.

Likewise, here in Australia, with fuel prices going through the roof, and thus the cost of trucking cattle to market, the old-fashioned trade of drover has already come back into demand. If we were hit with an EMP that fried our modern locos and trucks, the beef would just get to Australian cities the way it did even in the 1930s - on foot. (We even have people who still maintain bullock teams - think how fast someone like *that* would find themselves in demand with their neighbours).

I find it interesting that the current pope decided to take the name of Benedict.

For it was the first Benedict who founded the Benedictine Order; builders and re/builders of community, patient, orderly, and persistent, praying and working, preservers of knowledge and civilisation through that dark period of the 6th-9th century in Northwest Europe after the final collapse of the Western Roman empire.

If you're a Catholic, I think Benedict would be a good saint to invoke, for inspiration on how to survive in the aftermath of an EMP attack.

Spot on and PMK - Good discussion. To recap, we're talking about two different types of nuclear threats besides the one usually discussed involving physical destruction of a city or cities.

1. EMP, which is a prompt effect. The affected region is limited to the field of view of nuclear burst, so that the bomb would have to be physically delivered to a spot over the continental U.S. Electronics get fried by induction effects.

2. Enhancement of the radiation belts, which is global in scope so that detonation could occur anywhere above the atmosphere. Electronics get rapidly degraded by energetic particles, and the failure rate involving thousands of satellites is such that it would be impossible to keep up with the failures.

In practice, this last one would be by far the easiest to carry out. While not as spectacular as, say, the physical destuction of a city such as Washington, D.C. by an air burst to which Jihadists could shout "Allahu Akhbar" and post videos on YouTube, or an EMP air burst that would drop airliners from the sky, the results could induce the collapse of a substantial portion of the satellite network on which our economy and lives have come to depend. Among other things, the results would be render many portions of our defense communications system inoperative. Even the threat to do this would provide substantial diplomatic leverage to the threatener.

I don't think we need to go back to the Pony Express and ox-teams. Surface transport up to the 70's was pre-electronic. The early diesel locomotives would do just fine, and there a lot more old diesels in working order still around, while there are very few steamers. For automobiles, it shouldn't be too difficult to engineer a relatively cheap conversion kit using a carburetor and mechanical distributor to replace all the electronic fuel injection and spark control. The same could be done for fram equipment and late-model diesel locomotives. The major problem would be fuel -- the refineries and pipelines are computer-controlled.
Perhaps the biggest problem would be manufacturing, with all those computer-driven robotic assembly lines. It would take time and money to re-equip Ford and General Motors with 1960's technology.
As a little side-note, I remember reading maybe ten years ago, that if the U.S. were to try to handle the 1990's volume of communication with 1940 technology (and 1940 wasn't exactly the Stone Age), the entire adult female population would be working for Bell Telephone as switch-board operators.

Another little aside; there are supposed to be more horses in the U.S. now than there were 100 years ago, when farms and local freight transport were mostly horse-powered. After an EMP, those oat-burning manure factories could be put to useful work.

Intersting posts on another thread:

"I wish I could remember the program I was watching this week end discussing this, but the key points were that Iran only has two stage rockets, and you cannot reach even low orbits without the third stage, and, the payload that they were claiming to be able to deliver was less than 100 lbs, nothing more than a box that can "beep". This was being dismissed as sabre rattling, all noise. Not sure if that makes it a good thing that imanutjob is (at best) trying to enter the space race with words, or if the knowledge that the "can't shoot straight gang" has access to even bigger mis-guided projectiles, but I think for now, we have little to worry about."
Later
Albert

Posted by: GamblersChoice at August 18, 2008 12:38 PM

"Update---

I just heard on Fox News that Contrary to Irans reporting, The Safir (ambassador) satellite-carrier FAILED shortly after takeoff---"

Posted by: Ladywolfnl at August 18, 2008 6:41 PM

CGW,
The important thing is that you don't let such reports lull you into complacency. THIS one failed. The next one might succeed.
For comparison, look at the WTC. The first bomb was meant to knock one building over onto the other. It failed to do so. As al Qaeda concentrated on overseas targets, we thought we were safe. The next time they hit us, they made sure to hit both towers.

Eastview,
Thanks for the clarification on the EMPs.

Dumbledoresarmy, Eastview, PMK, and others.

There are several points to review on EMP.

1. The only technical defense to EMP is hardened electronic equipment and loads and loads of spare parts, which is affordable but costly. Our politicians have made a decision that they don't want to go there. (I presume because they don't want to wake us up.)

2. The only military defense to EMP is pre-emptive attack and ABM. This whole area seems to be the current political playing field. But these approaches are nowhere certain.

3. MAD worked with the Soviets for a long time but with terrorists in the mix now, russian could launch an EMP from a Sub and blame it on somebody else, if you get what I mean. They would have plausible deniability.

4. Someone could blackmail us as eastview has mentioned.

5. The last defense is the surest, as was vividly described by dumbledoresarmy. Food and water will be the hardest commodity to find. Local churches, community, local civil defense shelters, stored food and water, and just plain being good samaritans and neighbors is the only way I know to really come through such an attack. Because the repairman will be a long time coming for any long distance service.

But the federal government, if it wished to admit this vulnerability, could help us all greatly with their resources but at present they refuse to accept the premise that we need to do this.

I think we had better continue to safeguard our rights to owning personal firearms, in addition to suggestions above. If our communications were knocked out, some of us would be utterly, personally defenseless without them.

"The same technology used to put satellites into space can also be used to deliver warheads."

warheads could be chemical or biological , not necessarily nuclear..