"'We have a message: Muslim Americans are as American as apple pie,' Lalani said. 'Ignoring us is the politics of exclusion and exclusion, I would suggest, is un-American.'" Fine. I don't want to ignore Muslim Americans. I want to ask them questions about their stance on bringing Sharia to the U.S., and related matters. But even asking such questions only gets you charges of "Islamophobia" -- and no substantive answers.
"US election: Muslim Democrats make political impact despite negative attacks: Muslim activists and political leaders say that they see no need to play down their political involvement," by Paul Harris in The Guardian, August 26:
The lilting sound of the Koran, sung in haunting Arabic, rang through the unlikely setting of a basement hotel conference room. A local imam intoned the verses, exhorting the audience of Muslim Democrats to reject Satan and give thanks to Allah.Then a troop of Boy Scouts strode onto stage carrying the American flag and the entire room stood up, many with hands over heart, as the Star-Spangled Banner was sung with equal gusto.
For the first time Muslims have banded together to hold a political gathering as a united body at a Democratic convention. The event in Denver - called the American Muslim Democratic caucus - was the brainchild of retired Texan doctor, Inayat Lalani.
It could not have come at a more unusual time for Muslims in America. Their community is still suffering from suspicion in an age of the war on terror and the conflict in Iraq, but there is also an intense internet whispering campaign portraying Obama - who is a devout Christian - as a Muslim.
That has led to anger among Muslim Democrats that the mere accusation of being a Muslim could be seen as a political negative.
"So what?" Lalani said. "He is not a Muslim and he says that. But I am a Muslim and if I was running for office would it be right to hold that against me?"...
Not if you will be so kind as to clear and honest about your views on political Islam and your connections, if any, with Muslim Brotherhood-linked groups in the U.S.
At the Denver gathering, which featured Muslim Democratic delegates from all over the US, attendees said they would not be turned away from public life. "There is nothing un-American about Islam. The best ideals of America are the best ideals of Islam," said Minnesota Congressman Keith Ellison, who in 2006 became the first Muslim to be elected to Congress.He was later followed by Andre Carson, who admitted that any Muslim being elected to such high office in America was going to face difficulties. "Keith took the heat and the shots before me. He took the pain, though they came gunning for me too," Carson said.
But he added that no Muslim should be put off from running for office. "Muslims needs to be engaged more actively in public life in our country. Where are our Muslim councillors? Where are our Muslim mayors?" he said.
In fact Muslims are growing in political power in the US. [...]
He said that includes some 245,000 possible votes in the vital swing state of Michigan and another 63,000 in the equally important Pennsylvania.
That should make Muslims an attractive voting bloc for either political party, just like politicians court the Jewish vote or the Hispanic vote. But in 2008 nothing is that simple for Muslims.
At the Denver meeting the battle was not simply about the ballot box, it was also about fighting prejudice and expressing a genuine desire to belong.
"We have a message: Muslim Americans are as American as apple pie," Lalani said. "Ignoring us is the politics of exclusion and exclusion, I would suggest, is un-American."
"Their [Muslim American] community is still suffering from suspicion in an age of the war on terror..."
-- from the article in The Guardian above
No, the reporter has it all wrong. It is not a case of "still suffering from suspicion" but rather, of growing suspicion, growing slowly and inexorably, and even against the natural grain of so many who would prefer not to believe the evidence of their senses, and the correct workings of their reason. No, that suspicion grows because of what we read, what we see, what we learn, about the texts of Islam, the tenets of Islam, the attitudes and atmospherics that nautrally suffuse Muslim societies, and of course the experience of dealing with Muslims in Iraq, seeing their mendacity and rapacity and the way they attempt to use the Americans for their own gain against their own enemies, and have no intention of changing their spots, or becoming advanced Democratic Man, despite the messianic sentimentalism of the Bush Administration.
Yes, that suspicion grows, despite the best efforts of our political and media elites, starting with George Bush who not only, after the 9/11/2001 attacks instituted Iftar dinners but could hardly stop talking about how wonderful Islam is, was, always will be (and Tony Blair, carrying his Qur'an ostentatiously around with him, seconded the motion), and he, and those dutifully echoing him, such as Condolleezza (or which of those letters in that comical name is not to be doubled? I keep forgetting), all find Islam swell, but the "exremists" and the "radicals" and the "radical extremists" and the "extremist radicals" among them -- god knows what texts they rely on for the strange version of Islam we're expected to believe that they've apparently made up out of whole cloth -- are the ones we are fighting, so loyally aided by true-blue American Muslims at the forefront of attacking, in thought, word, and deed, those "radical extremist Muslims" who are giving -- but we won't let them succeed, will we, fellow Americans, Americans all? -- Islam, kind Islam, forbearing Islam, tolerant Islam, peaceful Islam -- an entirely unmerited bad name.
That is some poison apples they used on the pie.
I guess Apple Pie is not haram?
Are moslems as American as a hot dog or a good old-fashioned BBQ? Or how about a Pork roast?
Beer...?
I didn't think so.
"American Muslim Democratic"....from headline.
Which of these 3 words seems out of place?
There is nothing un-American about Islam. The best ideals of America are the best ideals of Islam," said Minnesota Congressman Keith Ellison.
I must have missed the part in the Constitution that included our founding fathers advocating beheading and stoning.
One cannot be both a patriotic American and a devout Muslim. Anyone who thinks or says so is either confused or lying.
Does the Democratic platform have a plank that says Israel has the right to exist, with defensible borders, and that it has the right to defend itself? If so, then someone should ask these Muslim Democrats (in the presence of a camera and microphone) to endorse that part of their party's platform. Would any of them give a simple Yes or No? More likely their answers would be as long and as full of qualifications and hedges and hems and haws as a typical Obamalogue.
From article: A local imam intoned the verses, exhorting the audience of Muslim Democrats to reject Satan and give thanks to Allah.
Does this man that the Muslim democrats have accepted Satan and are ungrateful to Allah?
Well, they 'are' going to vote for Obama, he may not be a muslim, but he is the closest thing they have.
Is becoming a democrat and participating in the politics of Kuffars, accepting Satan and rejecting Allah? Or is this just another branch of the 'Islamic Office of Stealth Jihad'?
Immigrate, multiply rapidly, capture the vote, and presto Sharia Law, and The Islamic Republic of America. Big changes.
Don't worry, Barack and 'Just Plain Joe', will work with the Muslim democrats to bring these 'changes' about...
This I fear is the more evidence of a Tariq-Ramadan-style onslaught on America...
It's not "Americanized Islam," it's "Islamized America."
You see, Islam is for "peace" and "justice." It's against "oppression." Islam protects the "innocent." All people are created "equal."
Just like the good ol' USA, you see.
"but the "exremists" and the "radicals" and the "radical extremists" and the "extremist radicals" among them"
Or how about the "extremist form of radical Islamism" (courtesy of By Alasdair Palmer
Telegraph.co.uk in Front Page.com website). I can one-up that: "the extremistic type of really really strongist forms of ultra-radicalist Islamisticism".
"American Muslim Democratic"....from headline.
Which of these 3 words seems out of place?
Posted by: champ
--
That would be 'American'. The "democratic" Party is getting along just fine with moslems. The Repubs aren't too far behind, regretfully stated.
"There is nothing un-American about Islam. The best ideals of America are the best ideals of Islam," said Minnesota Congressman Keith Ellison, who in 2006 became the first Muslim to be elected to Congress.
I am familiar with the Constitution and the Qur'an, some of the Hadith and the biography of Mohammed. It's like trying to stuff a square peg in a round hole.
One of the problems is that one of the best ideals of Islam involves killing American unbelievers.
What part of "kill the infidels" do you not understand Congressman?
Oh, he understands.. he UNDERSTANDS!
He's just laying low.
For now.
Keith took the heat and the shots before me. He took the pain,
mm what was the heat and pain? was he tortured?
still suffering from suspicion in an age of the war on terror"
could that be the ordinary joe can connect the dots, and see that islamists are doing most if not all the terrorism in the world? More Western people can see through these islamists and their cohorts aka appologists, democrats and msm for their doulbe speak how if we listened to them we would lose our freedoms. Democracy and especially the form used in the US does not work with islam!
"Haunting Arabic" is so correct. Haunting like a banshee in the eaves, or the howling of a wolf outside the door.
"Haunting Arabic" is so correct. Haunting like a banshee in the eaves, or the howling of a wolf outside the door.
Posted by: Marwan'sDaughter
--
Haunting like Hillary's voice.
If her political ambitions don't pan out maybe she can become the first female muezzin ever.
"Ignoring us is the politics of exclusion and exclusion, I would suggest, is un-American."
And exclusion, I would suggest, is very much Islamic. In fact, it is the essence of Islam.
Islam is nothing BUT the politics of exclusion.
All who don't believe as you do are excluded.
Thank you, Lalani, for the gift of laughter. Your idiocy made me laugh! AT YOU!
Please, please don't compare Arabic caterwauling to the howl of the wolf! There are few more beautiful sounds in nature than a pack of wolves, heads thrown back, communicating with other wolves or howling for the sheer joy of it!
ImNoDhimmi ...Wolves are frustrated muslims, that's why they howl at the moon. You know the one about 'wolves in sheep's clothing'. After a while, it all starts adding up...I'm just kidding, I share your admiration for wolves, they are a very misunderstood animal...
"There is nothing un-American about Islam. The best ideals of America are the best ideals of Islam," said Minnesota Congressman Keith Ellison, who in 2006 became the first Muslim to be elected to Congress.
Let me count the ways:
1. Sharia law tops our constitution and any of our laws
2. Women treated as property
3. Lack of freedom of religion
4. Lack of freedom of speech
5. Barbaric punishments
6. Women not treated as equal to men in courts
7. Child brides
8. Female genital mutilation
9. No music
10. No art
That's just quickly off the top of my head. There are many more ways that Islam is un-American and Mr. Ellison, who was famously sworn in on Thomas Jefferson's Qur'an, that Qur'an that Mr. Jefferson used to find the truth about Islam, and found Islam not at all supporting the best ideals of America; in fact, not supporting any of the ideals of America, knows it.
"We have a message: Muslim Americans are as American as apple pie," Lalani said. "
I know apple pie, I grew up with apple pie; and you Mr.Lalani, you and your ideology are no apple pie!!
"We have a message: Muslim Americans are as American as apple pie"
Article headline.
I guess Apple Pie is not haram?
Posted by: Ummah Gummah
Actually, it may just be haram, because of the lard used in making the crust, and this would extend as well to all pies similarly made. There are many other things that are "As American as..." that are haram, which include not only anything associated with pork and alcohol, but any food that may have come into contact with any utensils that may have come into contact with such. Haram items besides ham, porkchops, beer, wine, etc., include such staples as jello, buns and breads, Avon products, bar soap, moth balls, mouthwash, etc.
For a list check out http://set31.blogspot.com/2008/06/halal-haram.html
If Muslims are "as American as apple pie" are they as American as pumpkin pie, the pumpkin pie traditionally served at Thanksgiving, which like Independence Day, Memorial Day, and other national holidays, are not to be observed by observant Muslims, for only Muslim holidays, Muslim history, Muslim everything, counts?
And one more question. If Muslims have no trouble at all being "as American as apple pie" then surely they have no trouble viewing the defining document of the American polity, the Constitution of the United States, as worthy of their complete loyalty. And that includes, of course, the guarantees of individual rights in the Bill of Rights. And since the Bill of Rights is so very close, in so many of its key provisions -- freedom of speech, freedom of conscience (which naturally includes the right to apostasize) -- to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, can we conclude that American-as-apple-pie American Muslims find it puzzling that all of the Muslim countries (save for the Shah's Iran, and most temporarily and temporizingly) have failed to subscribe to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and instead have concocted a Muslim version, the so-called Cairo Declaration, which in every essential respect, involving individual rights, fatally vitiates the original, Universal Declaration?
These people can carry on all they want with their bromides, and their pledges-of-fake-allegiance, but to the precise extent that they are True Believers in Islam, and Defenders of the Faith, to that exact extent they cannot conceivably owe their allegiance, above what Islam commands and prohibits, to the American Constitution. And that means no Believer who owes his loyalty to Islam and fellow members of the Umma, that is no one calling himself a Muslim who is truthful about the requirements of this Total Belief-System and what it inculcates (above all, the division, permanent and immutable, between Believer and Infidel, until such time as Infidel becomes Believer), can conceivably owe his allegiance to a document that is flatly contradicted, in letter and spirit, by the Shari'a.
We are getting tired of the Interfath Healers, the three-abrahamic-faith boys, the we're-as-American-as-apple-pie mountebanks and carney barkers.
And the more they say this, the more they insist on these phrases that are so easily seen to be hollow, the more they elicit in people of sense, people willing to find out for themselves -- the texts are a click away, the testimonies of defectors from the Army of Islam, the apostates, are a click away -- what Islam teaches, what Muslims believe -- a deep and growing suspicion.
Repeat the nonsense a hundred times or a hundred thousand times. We can read the Qur'an, Hadith, Sira. We can overhear -- thanks to MEMRI and other organizations -- what is actualy said by imams, what is said on Al Jazeera, what the quality, the texture and tenor, of Muslim public life in Muslim lands, or addressed to Muslim audiences world-wide, actually is. We can read the testimonies of those who have through no fault of their own been born into Islam and have managed to fight their way free -- people such as Wafa Sultan, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Ibn Warraq, and many others -- and what they say, the world of Islam that they depict, corresponds exactly to what we read about, what we see, what we have come, some slowly, some more rapidly, to comprehend, and it is they whom the evidence of our senses and the workings of our reason confirm. It is not those Taqiyya-and-Tu-Quoque boys, in Denver or elsewhere, who think they can get away with telling us, with sweet smiles and pledges of feigned allegiance to an Infidel nation-state, that they are "as American as apple pie."
Not on your life. And take that last phrase very carefully indeed: not on your life.
This is SO typical of what the Democratic party has become. They have swung so far into Liberalism, the method to their madness is to gather all the special interest groups they can into their nest for a freak show powerbase...then somehow try to pander to mainstream USA they are really moderate. Now we can officially add Islamism in America under the big tent of the DNC. It like inviting Freddie Krueger to dinner to serve the salad.
Swear I thought I was a few Moonbats flying the DNC the other night.
That would be 'American'. The "democratic" Party is getting along just fine with moslems. The Repubs aren't too far behind, regretfully stated.
Posted by: Ummah Gummah at August 27, 2008 3:40 PM
How true! However, a glaring exception is congressman Tom Tancredo, R-CO. He is right on the money on the burning problems America faces:
- Illegal Immigration.
- Jihad.
There are a few / far and forgotten patriotic statesman like Tom Tancredo, R-Co. Americans, who elected Bush now regret but for the most part, you are right.
Swear I thought I saw a few Moonbats flying around the DNC the other night...freaked me out so much I couldn't even type it right the first time.
Just another ticket item in the freak show....lol.
"We have a message: Muslim Americans are as American as apple pie"
Article headline.
If you american muslims are so damn american, why don't you help out your country and join the Army/Marines to protect the democratic process in Iraq and in Afghanistan for your brothers and sisters? At the same time you protect your fellow muslims from insurgents and also protect the the other religious minorities that is being murdered by the muslim insurgents. Now that is a perfect way to show the islamophobes how to turn things around for the better!
What? I can't hear you... It is so quiet that the sound of quietness is blocking out everything else.
From a eager waiting islamophobe!
What Hugh said. In spades.
"as American as apple pie"
Retch
Just when I thought people couldn't get any stupider I am proven wrong once again. What an analogy...
but there is also an intense internet whispering campaign portraying Obama - who is a devout Christian -
I have had the pleasure of knowing and working with a small number of devout Christians in my life. It is easy for one to claim to be a devout Christian, but there is no way that anyone but a complete fool, or a reporter, would accept that claim that Obama is a devout Christian.
Barack Obama's position on abortion is so reprehensible to my faith that he would be at great risk of being excommunicated for even voicing it in a church setting. Perhaps if a person was raised as a muslim and later turns to Christianity, they may perceive of themselves as being devout. But that doesn't make it so.
I think Lalani knows very well that American democracy and Islam - which ultimately calls for Sharia government – are very incompatible for reason I don’t think I have to enumerate here. My point is that political activists like Lalani are not “moderate” Muslims sincerely trying to be and be seen as “American as apple pie”; they are totally disingenuous. They know what their Islam is about and it’s not anything about what we celebrate on the 4th of July.
The democratic party has become a useful idiot.
Go to the following address to view one of the truths of Islam -
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/33597
I'm trying to find an equivalent truth in America, but I'm having no luck. Perhaps Congressman Ellison can help me.
Islam is a religion and Muslim is an adherent of the religion. Is this the only religious group that talk about these terms Muslim-American. One can understand it when it is about ethnic groups that identify as hyphen Americans, they share a past prior they become Americans. Anyone can be a Muslim, they don’t necessary need to have anything else in common. Never heard of Roman Catholic-American, Calvinist-American, Quaker-American, Mormon-American or Buddhist-American and that they got to have a special role in America due to that.
"The lilting sound of the Koran, sung in haunting Arabic"
Screeching, yes; caterwauling, yes' but lilting, no.
And more nightmarish than haunting.
On Sunday September 25, 2005 the Muslim Foundation of America, Inc. sponsored their 20th Annual United American Muslim Day Parade.
The parade begin on 41st Street and Madison Avenue and end at 23rd Street, along Madison Avenue in New York.
The purpose of that successful day was to bring communities of various ethnic and religious groups together to promote a better understanding of Islam and to foster interfaith cooperation between Muslim and all other religious/community groups.
The annual Muslim Day Parade began in 1985 and has been going strong since.
There were banners, singing, food and lots of ordinary Americans like myself participating, and I too was holding up the flag of Islam to show that we can let bygones be bygones.
Islam has a bad name (particularly so in New York) but so does America in many people's eyes.
Some people are bad at trying to unite the apathetic, but let us show that we are better than that.
There will be a parade in September in New York in September this year too, let's give interfaith dialogue a chance.
From above: The annual Muslim Day Parade began in 1985 and has been going strong since.
Amazing...They must be very tired by now...
Interfaith dialogues with Muslims always fail, and for the same reasons. Muslims do not attend to learn and grow. Taqlid rigidity does not allow it. Thus, they come with an agenda: gull the unwary, gain consessions, grab leadership power and gut the opposition. Show us what the Saudi's brought from their "chance" in Madrid that has altered the course of human events back home in Mecca and Medina.
THANKS FOR THAT LINK TAANSTAAFL;
What's amazing is how Left-Wing women who are among the Useful Dupes of the Jihadis don't realize that Muslim men will , under Sharia, choose them as slaves, but not before Genital Mutilation FIRST.
Islam has a bad name (particularly so in New York) but so does America in many people's eyes.
Islam has earned its reputation in the waste heap of history. Not just in New York City, but in the fields of Pennsylvania, and in Arlington, Virginia, too. What the rest of the world, rife with hatred and endless conflict, inevitably looking to the U.S. to save it, guide it, provide a role model for dealing with an intractable ideology thinks of us? We should care less.
Is that you, John Kerry?
Ah, but it is certainly Islamic, yes?
No, the reporter has it all wrong. It is not a case of "still suffering from suspicion" but rather, of growing suspicion, growing slowly and inexorably, and even against the natural grain of so many who would prefer not to believe the evidence of their senses, and the correct workings of their reason.
I harbor no "suspicions" about islam any more than you do. Actually, we are VERY clear as to exactly what islam represents and VERY clear as to the threat it really truly is.
islam is as American as stalinism or the hitler youth!
For the same reasons that stalinism and nazism where stopped stone-cold-dead-in-their-tracks, so must islam be stopped as well as their lefty commards who are in many ways MORE dangerous than the islamist themselves.
abrahim's brother: You equate the greatest political entity in man's history, the United States of America, with Islam as both being viewed unfavorably by many. Do you not understand the term, "moral relativism?" Islam has demonstrated a millenium and a half of unremitting intolerance and violence towards unbelievers, NEVER apologizing for its numerous excesses and NEVER demonstrating a capacity for reform. America, by contrast, has liberated millions with the blood of its young men, has been a safe haven for the oppressed from all corners of the world for centuries and has apologized profusely for its past errors. America stands for freedom and the best of mankind. Islam stands for man shackled and the worst of mankind. Apparently you also do not understand the term, "useful idiot."
"Barack Obama's position on abortion is so reprehensible to my faith that he would be at great risk of being excommunicated for even voicing it in a church setting. Perhaps if a person was raised as a muslim and later turns to Christianity, they may perceive of themselves as being devout. But that doesn't make it so."
Posted by: ec marm
Reprehensible is right!! I completely agree!! A "devout Christian" upholds life and would never support abortion; nor would I ever vote for a candidate who does. Never.
champ: I am not a Christian, am not religious at all and am pro-choice, though reluctantly, unenthusiastically, barely. And yet I too am repelled by Barack Obama's moral cretinism on the issue of abortion. The man is a moral retard----or coward-----or both. You have even more allies than perhaps you realize.
A "devout" Christian.
In terms of not having Jesus literally standing in front of you here & now, leading - teaching - providing examples in every situation/circumstance...now would mean adhering strictly to His written testimony in all areas of life.
Examine Hussein Obama's declarations about life and principles that motivate him...would you find ANY parallel with the bible. Lip service to the title "devout Christian" is all I see from here.
Jesus Himself told us you will know a tree by it's fruit.
"These people give me honour with their lips, but their heart is far from me."
Matthew 15:8
Jesus said "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments."
John 14:15
I too was holding up the flag of Islam to show that we can let bygones be bygones.
Islam has a bad name (particularly so in New York) but so does America in many people's eyes.
Abrahim's_brother,
Muslims will never let bygones be bygones. They are still seeking revenge for things that happened three, four, eight CENTURIES ago.
No one in the West talks of reclaiming all of the Middle East for Christians and Jews or all of India for the Hindus, and pushing Arabs back to the peninsula from whence they came. But they want Spain back. They want India.
In whose eyes does America have a bad reputation?
I trust those people will never see fit to call on Washington for help, at ANY point in their lives! Otherwise they're just hypocrites.
Message to muslims in America: No, you are not Americans. You are morons.
Here are a few things from the Islamic cult that are un-American:
Taqiyya - Lying about cult doctrines to trick others into unwittingly joining the cult.
Kitman - Mental reservation, especially when taking a sworn oath; witholding complete information in order to deceive people when explaining cult doctrines.
Slavery, as in "slaves of Allah"
Umma - Forfeiting personal identity; giving unquestioned loyalty to the cult--above the nation, country, its institutions, and its secular law; legal and personal bias in favor of cult members in every situation.
Haram and halal - Mindlessly following rules that are based on 7th century Arabian pirate culture.
dar al Harb - Making war on The Other, just because The Other don't believe cult doctrines.
Jihad - Making war on non-cult humanity to force everyone without exception to join the cult, live as slaves under its law, or die; deliberately undermining civil society outside of the cult.
Hudna - Making treaties with The Other solely to regroup while preparing for the next attack, to be resumed as soon as a relative strength advantage is gained.
Sharia - Using the government to enforce the "theological" law of the cult; disrespect for non-cult laws, customs, governments, and national boundaries, while working to undermine and replace them.
dar al Islam - Separating the cult from everyone else to achieve fascist purity.
Kuffar and Najis - Automatically treating The Other, their culture, and their beliefs as filth.
Dhimmi - Enslaving, persecuting, and humiliting non-cult populations to serve the power of the cult.
Jahiliyya - Cultural genocide; destroying the history and traditions of non-cult society.
Minarets - Erecting giant phallic symbols across the land to visually remind non-cult members that they are being dominated.
Muezzin - Broadcasting the cult "call to prayer" over cities to remind the non-cult members five times a day that they are being dominated.
Polygamy.
Plowing tilth - Treating women as baby factories for creating new cult warriors.
Burqas and hijabs - Making cult women walk around wearing tents to identify them as property of the cult, so that cult men--who cannot control their lusty urges and who take no reponsibility for doing so--will not be tempted to rape, and so that cult men can easily identify non-cult rape and kidnapping targets (as in "uncovered meat").
Mohammed - Revering and emulating a murdering, raping, looting pirate as the Perfect Man for all time.
Fatwa - Issuing orders for the cult members to murder specifically-named people in cold blood.
Murdering homosexuals.
Takfir - Murdering people who fail to live up to cult doctrines.
Apostasy - Murdering people who leave the cult.
Blasphemy - Murdering people who try to re-interpret cult doctrines.
Bida - Murdering people who try to alter ancient cult doctrines; murdering people who insist on treating facts as truth instead of the perverted dogma written in an ancient war manual that the aforesaid power-mad and sex-crazed pirate dictated to his caravan-robbing minions in the 7th century.
Islam is not American.
Islam is Intolerance, Shameless Lies, And Murder. That's all it is now. That's all it ever was.
"let's give interfaith dialogue a chance."
'Interfaith' means da'awa, nothing else. It means unhindered proselytizing, spreading islam by any means.
Nothing more, nothing less.
That has to be understood.
Great post, Stendec!
Before I make my comments, I just want to preface that I'm Jewish and a strong Zionist and that were I to live in Israel, I would be a member of the Likud Party. Having said that...
Robert Spencer's commentary is stupid and race-baiting. It reminds me of how Catholic candidates were accused of favoring the proclamations of the Pope over the will of the people. What finally killed that once and for all was Kennedy saying that what religion he was made no bearing on how he would govern the country. But here we are again, assuming the worst of a Muslim-American without even the thinnest of proof on this person. Is it our right to demand what his connections are, just on an inkling, without any physical grains of evidence? The burden of proof is, and has always been, on the accuser. I suggest to Robert Spencer that unless he has something concrete against this person, then he should shut the hell up. Jews should NOT be descending to this level of bigotry, EVER!
And if you even think about deleting this post, just think about what Richard Silverstein does to posts that strongly disagree with his dogmatic viewpoint. Do you want to be in the same league as that putz?
DevilInPgh writes:
"I suggest to Robert Spencer that unless he has something concrete against this person, then he should shut the hell up. Jews should NOT be descending to this level of bigotry, EVER!"
What an imbecile you are. First, Robert Spencer
is not Jewish. Second, if the statements he made
were bigoted (they aren't), then one should say
"No one should descend to this level of bigotry..."
It's bigoted of you to insist on a special
standard for Jews.
Given what any informed person knows about Islam,
anyone professing to be a believing Muslim should
be asked about the implications of their belief.
No bigotry there, but it isn't likely that a troll
like you is capable of understanding that.
Muslims are NOT AMERICANS NOR CAN THEY ever be!
Their so-called religion precludes it. Heck even Americans who were born and grew up here and later converted to Islam no longer see themselves as Americans but part of the Ummah and then do their level best to promote Islam and denigrate and intimidate non-Muslims.
DIP - where did you ever get the idea that Robert was Jewish? Sounds like your Jew-dar is a little rusty there pal; but seriously, where did you ever get the idea that Robert Spencer was Jewish?
DIP states: "The burden of proof is, and has always been, on the accuser."
Hold on there, DIP! Robert Spencer is not on trial here, but Islam is, so I would like to place the burden of proof upon your very capable shoulders, DIP. Prove that Islam is worth defending. Come on, you have the floor......
.....we are all ears.
......waiting!!!!!!
OK, first, I originally saw this "article" posted on a Jewish e-mail list. My response was to that list, and what I did was copy/paste from that. So what I should have done was replace "Jew" with "decent G-d-fearing American". And so what if I expect Jews to have a higher moral standard than gentiles? That's what makes us Jews!
Second, since someone above says that Islam is on trial, it stands to reason that Robert Spencer is the prosecutor. The burden of proof is ALWAYS on the prosecution. Or did we forget about "innocent until proven guilty"? I don't have to say a damn thing about having to defend Islam as practiced in the US, because I'm not the prosecutor. Make your case with valid points, not hearsay and conjecture.
Third, waltc proves my point, that the only way for a Muslim to be American is to renounce Islam completely, 100%, even if the brand of Islam he practices is peaceful. Gee, I wonder where we heard that before...Oh, that's right, American anti-Semitism of the early-mid 20th century!
DevilInPgh if you are not a troll but a true 2008 "Zionist", that may explain your ignorance of Islam, since myopia and delusion seems to dominate the present-day Israeli government, as it does Bush-Rice.
However, your caterwauling about bigotry sort of gives you away - it is an everyday word in CAIR's lexicon.
Jimmy Bones, I think you are right, as I had the same suspicion about the Devil myself. He made too much about being a "Zionist Jew" from the get-go, so that is a dead give-a-way too.
OK, so now you're gonna call me an Islamist extremist? How civilized of you. Funny thing is, you didn't counter what I said on Islam as practiced in AMERICA, or the accusation of bigotry on your behalf. After all, if the shoe fits...
PS: How do you want me to prove I'm Jewish? I could just easily give you my Hebrew name (Yehuda), but you'd just as easily dismiss it as picking something out of a hat. I could recite the Sh'ma, but then you'd call that the equivalent of whistling Zippety-Doo-Da out my ass. I could tell you what my Bar Mitzvah parshah and haftarah were, but then see points 1 and 2.
BTW, my Bar Mitzvah portion was Miketz (Pharaoh's dream, Joseph's ascention to viceroy, and the brothers coming to grovel at Joseph's feet in Egypt) and my haftarah was about Solomon mediating the conflict between two mothers over who was the mother of the baby (one of the few years Parshat Miketz did not fall on Chanukah and thus why the default (rather than holiday) haftarah was read).
Let me guess, you're a Muslim woman pretending to be Jewish, and you're trying REALLY hard to make Jews look ridiculous and hateful - that is obvious - and what "G-d fearing American Jew", as you're pretending to be, would use "Devil" in HER moniker? You're not fooling anyone here, move along little troll, no one is biting here.
Devil is a liar - she is not a Jew - but a Muslim troll.
I'm sorry, guess I should have used my other moniker that I go by in other places, JDSBlueDevl. Now if you don't get the reference (Duke Blue Devils), then maybe you should watch a little college basketball.
And for the record, I'm a HE.
Also, if anyone wants to see a slideshow I made of my Birthright trip, it's at http://www.youtube.com/user/DevilInPgh. I wouldn't be using that moniker if it weren't me.
Regardless of whether you're a she-Devil or a he-Devil, I still contend that you are not Jewish, because no "G-d fearing Jew" would use "Devil" is his or her moniker. Bottom line, you did NOT use your lame-o college fave-team as your current moniker, troll man, but instead chose to present yourself as a hypocritical Jew. So I ain't buyin' your BS, pal.
I will not, nor do I recommend anyone else, visit that YouTube site, as it's probably a piece of gargbage set out by troll man. Ain't bitten' your bate, troll man.
.....oops....I mean "bait"
http://fcjl.studentaffairs.duke.edu/
And if you want to look at my Digg history:
http://digg.com/users/DevilInPgh/history/comments/page7 and later pages
I don't know what else I could do to convince you I am who I am.
Devil should read through one solid year of Jihad Watch archives and Dhimmi Watch too, pick out all the stories related to USA and Canada, then come back and tell us there's no problem of Islam in America. As they say in the law, "ignorance of the law is no excuse".
Nothing. I know who you are; or rather, who you aren't. Bye.
http://badnewsfromthenetherlands.blogspot.com/
“I don't know what else I could do to convince you I am who I am.
”Posted by: DevilInPgh
Save your breath DIP, you have convinced me and everyone else that you’re an idiot.
Information received and noted.
No further communication required.
Care to explain where I say anything idiotic? If so, show me, then present your argument to the contrary. If not, then I suggest you show me (more specifically, show me what makes you think Inayat Lalani is a closet Sharia-imposing terrorist).
Care to explain where I say anything idiotic? If so, show me, then present your argument to the contrary (more specifically, show me what makes you think Inayat Lalani is a closet Sharia-imposing terrorist). If not, then I suggest you hide your tail behind your legs.
DIP,
Speaking for myself, a poster here over two years, I don't think that the entire population of Muslims in America are disloyal or shari'a imposing terrorists. But I do think that shari'a supremacists and jihadists swim in a Muslim sea, that Muslim orthodoxy had been ossified for 900 years, and that that tradition has a virulent strain--integral to it--that is supremacist, supersessionist, intolerant, and potentially violent.
Looking at Islam objectively doesn't alter those facts, and that puts a larger burden on American Muslims; in my mind, it means that they should come clean of Salafism and of malignant influences (all too prevalent) like the Ikhwan and Saudi-style clericalism.
Should read, "Muslim orthodoxy has been ossified for [the past] 900 years."
Ha Ha - as American as Apple Pie, eh?
So not really "that" American as Apple Pies go back (earliest records of apple pie anyway) to England originally!
Sure, Islam is American as apple-pie:
Look at Dearborn: That's the future of Islamic America.
1) Islamic calls toprayer broadcast over loudspeakers "for the benefit of all".
2) Halal of equality (everyone loves halal, don't they?)
3) White Americans moving out, more Muslims moving in. It's not Islamization, it freedom of choice - they were probably Republican racists anyhow.
4) Self-imposed censorship: nobody should be allowed to criticize Islam - that would be alientating. So submitting to Islam contributes to tolerance and social harmony.
5)Political and social power. Muslims deserve political power and represention. This helps Americans overcome their bias owards Islam and see that Muslims are hard-working American citizens. We love family too: when Americans overcome their racist bias of polygamy we can fill America with the wives and chidren of Allah (all paid for by rich racist, Republican bigots hopefully).
6) Social equality. Muslims believe in equality, freedom and social justice. However, we don't want any dirty kafir blood transfusions, so we'll need our own hospitals. Also, you must resect our cultural otherness by letting us have our own Muslim schools and education. Also, we want our own graveyards - w don't like shring them with Jews (not that we're racist, we're just very religious). Also, we can't really dress like you, eat like you, behave like you or be freinds with you - it's not our fault, it's what Allah told us in the Qur'an... It's not that we hate you, it's just that we're more religious than you. It is American culture that makes your women dirty, infidel trash - we men don't mind having sexual relations with them but forget marriage (unless, of course the woman submits to Allah (and her husband, of course).
7) Freedom of speech. It's not that we don't like freedom of speech - we're Anmerican, so we love it. It's just that there is too much of it. We are in favour of all freedom of speech - except when it comes to saying anything critical of Islam - but that is because we love relgious freedom too. In fact, we only took legal measures to stop the UN criticizing Islam for the benefit of westerners. Criticising Islam is racist, so stopping criticism of Islam is a benefit to everyone. That's why we imposed trade boycots on Denmark and the Netherlands - they were involved in stirring up racist racial hatred with drawings.
So yes, Muslims are as American as apple-pie - so long as the apple-pie is an Islamic, sharia approved apple-pie (not touched by women or Jews or dirt kafir).
Vote Democrat: Remember everyone is the same. Everyone deserves respect. What's a little hateful, racist, supremicist, bigory amogst friends?
I for one have no trouble believing that DevilInPgh is a Jew. Maybe I, as a Jew (and strong Zionist and supporter of Likud), should feel complimented that so many posters can't believe that a Jew can be so stupid. But DevilInPgh isn't stupid; he's ignorant. His inference that Robert Spencer is Jewish is not a sign of stupidity; it's proof that he's new to the topic, as we all were once upon a time. Instead of hostility toward DIP, we should show pity on account of his ignorance. Here are just a couple of proofs of it:
First, the principle that one is innocent until proven guilty is applicable to legal proceedings. A little thought would make it plain that it can't be applied 24/7 by ordinary people in daily life, or daily life would screech to a stop. We can't avoid making judgments on incomplete evidence. The anonymous Muslim I pass on the street may wish to kill me, given the chance and the likelihood of getting away with it; or he/she may not--shall my heirs wait to find out?
Second, the charge of racism has been refuted so many times that I'm astonished that DIP hasn't heard of it. If someone called us Jews a race, wouldn't he object vehemently?
I could go on, but those two points will suffice to show that we can't have a dialogue with DIP unless he learns a lot more than he knows about the nature of Islam. I strongly advise him to read up on the subject -- a month's reading of everything on this site should be very helpful -- and then to come back and join the discussion.
I've never been a fan of pies - apple or pumpkin - so it's no big loss.
But are Mohammedans as American as pepperoni (which contains pork)? Are they as Canadian as Canadian bacon? Are they as American as McDonalds - which they firebomb in Karachi when there are cartoons drawn in Denmark? Hmmmm????
AlertTom Tancredo won't be running for Congress this time around. And given his non performance in the GOP primary, I have little confidence in the Republicans either.
Instead, I urge you and all patriots to switch support to the Loyalist party
http://www.loyalistparty.com/
This is a party that is holistic in its condemnation of Islam, and doesn't sugarcoat things. If every anti-Mohammedan voted for them in the Prez elections this November, while supporting in their local races the more anti-Jihadi candidate (Note: it won't always be Republicans), we can at least start the process of putting the GOP on notice that we can't be taken for granted, and that there is an electoral price to be paid for kissing Mohammedan ass.
IP,
Voting for the Loyalists is easier said than done, given that the only candidates they seem to have are one in New York and one in California, and both of them are running for State Assembly.
If Loyalists show up on the ballot in NJ, I'll look at them, but they haven't made much news. Even the Constitution Party is better known. Since I couldn't care less which of the MAJOR parties wins, I'm voting either Constitution or Libertarian at this point in time.
Voting for the anti-jihad candidate in the down-ballot elections is a good idea. You have to find them though. Here they're not likely to make much of a point of anti-jihadist views. Got to pick up that Muslim-American vote. Never mind that we saw the towers burning across the bay from central NJ.
Muslims are part of the American pie. They are the mildew, the rotten part of the apple, the part that you would rather spit or maybe the center hole in the pie as portrayed in the movie "American Apple Pie".
Actually, it may just be haram,
Eastview
So much for Muslim apple pie. They are not allowed to eat apple pie made in America.
"Robert Spencer's commentary is stupid and race-baiting."
Posted by: DevilInPgh
The only stupidity here is your comments. That tired old retort of equating opposition to Islamic beliefs with bigotry based upon one's physical appearance is the typical inane drivel that oozes from a PC liberal mindset.
The racism catch phrase is their classic weapon of choice against anyone who invades their utopian - nothing is really evil only misunderstood - world unity without consquences B.S...Or maybe just a Muslim using it to smear any opposition to their Islamic imperialism.
I'm another Jewish poster here who, like Aileen, has no trouble believing that DevilInPgh is who he says he is. My entire family is like him. I used to be like him too. When Jews who are uninformed about Islam hear criticism of Islam and Muslims, they hear the criticism that Jews have borne the brunt of through the centuries, and run to defend them. They know that the evil attributed to Jews is untrue, so they assume that evil attributed to any other minority religious or ethnic group is untrue too.
I hope that DevilInPgh is more open-minded than my family. They refuse to believe what I tell them about Islam because it would shatter their world view that humanity is basically good and we can have a world of peace and harmony one day.
If DevilInPgh reads the Koran, some Hadith, this and other Islam-aware websites, Memri, Palestinian Media Watch, apostates' sites like Faith Freedom International, and the books recommended at this site, he will learn that Islam is not benign. Islam is an amoral belief system whose goal is to dominate the world by any means possible. There is no "peaceful" or "moderate" branch of Islam. There are people who take their Islam seriously, and people who take it less seriously. And people who take it less seriously can become serious at the onset of a life-crisis.
Armed with the knowledge of Islam and its virulence towards everyone who isn't Islamic, when a Muslim spokesperson says something like "Muslim Americans are as American as apple pie", it throws his credibility into doubt. Islam by nature is against everything America and its constitution stand for. So we are not being bigotted by questioning him. We are unfortunately being realistic in saying that it is likely that he is lying to protect his religion, for if more people were to know how dangerous Islam is, they would try to stop him and his fellow-Muslims from attempting to achieve their ultimate goal of replacing our constitution with Sharia law.
"Does the Democratic platform have a plank that says Israel has the right to exist, with defensible borders, and that it has the right to defend itself?"
Posted by: Aileen
Good question. Does anyone know the answer to this?
Is it our right to demand what his connections are, just on an inkling, without any physical grains of evidence?
Posted by: DevilInPgh
Well, do you think this is all just made up out of thin air, then? And what do you mean by "physical" grains of evidence? When there is suspicion in the minds of millions of people that he might harbor even the slightest of sympathies toward those who have vowed to destroy us, then you're damn right we have not only the "right" but also the responsibility to demand answers.
Aileen and JeffS,
I admire your courage in taking the time and making the effort to learn for yourselves the truth about Islam and Muhammad. I am thankful that we are together in this battle against this great evil.
Regarding DIP; there is a world of difference between being ignorant and being WILLFULLY ignorant. The former condition is correctable while the latter is not.
DIP displays many tendencies of the willfully ignorant, in that he reflexively (and with great ignorance) defends Islam, which he knows absolutely nothing about. The reasonable (but ignorant) person will keep his mouth shut until he learns more about the subject at hand – and certainly before engaging knowledgeable people in passionate debate about it.
To do otherwise is to display to the world that you are and idiot, self-made and proud of it.
“They refuse to believe what I tell them about Islam because it would shatter their world view that humanity is basically good and we can have a world of peace and harmony one day.”
Posted by: JeffS
One more thing:
Let us be very clear, we are not debating whether “humanity” is basically good or not, we are discussing the evil that is PROVABLY inherent in Islam. The two are very different things. I believe that humanity is “basically good” and even that some percentage (perhaps even a large percentage) of Muslims are “basically good”.
The problem is that Islam is basically evil and it therefore guides otherwise good people to do evil things.
The greater the faith in Islam, the greater the tendency to do evil deeds in the name of Allah.
DevilinPGH writes:"... the burden of proof lies with the accuser.."
There is plenty of proof in the Qur'an isn't there?
I, for one, will never attend an Islamic "inter-faith" activity of any kind, because of that proof.
"Care to explain where I say anything idiotic..?" posted by DevilinPGH
Yes - just about everything you've posted here is idiotic because you base your points on the fact or nonfact that you are Jewish, as if that would or would not make a difference in your logic.
I happen to be Irish/French/German/Catholic/1st Christian/American Indian, but non of those things make my posts any more logical than yours. You are the bigot.
I happen to be Irish/French/German/Catholic/1st Christian/American Indian, but non of those things make my posts any more logical than yours. You are the bigot.
Posted by: charlie
LOL, Charlie! Good point!
DIP - any relation to 'nEt^DeViL'? You're probably both Buds.
Davegreybeard: Just to follow up on your point, with which I agree completely, it could be equally asserted that at least a simple majority of Communist Party members in the heyday of the Cold War were basically good folks, but so what? The ideology to which they adhered was evil. Even a large percentage of Nazi Party members in the 1930s were, in their daily life, above board with family, friends, acquaintances and strangers (as long as they were white). Again, so what?
It's a stunning piece of bad logic in action to see way too many people who should know better put forward the proposition implicitly or explicitly that since most of the adherents to a particular ideology are peaceful types, therefore the ideology itself is OK. A greater error in logic and common sense could not be found. And yet I encounter precisely this erroneous way of thinking from other Americans on a regular basis. Of course, far more who are like this are liberal rather than conservative, thus functioning as just one more confirmation of why modern Western liberalism is exactly what Whittaker Chambers assessed it as over half a century ago-------a prescription for Western suicide.
And now we have THE most liberal candidate for President in all of American history one step away from the Oval Office. Troubled and dire times indeed. Mankind's fate is yet again problematical and hangs in the balance.
Oh, Arabic's haunting alright. Like goats getting strangled and cats vomiting. It keeps me up at night wondering how a billion people never saw the need to draw a distinction between 'slave' and 'black person,' 'woman' and 'vagina,' and saw fit to use one word, 'nikah,' to refer interchangeably to 'sex,' 'rape,' 'sex slavery,' 'incest,' 'child molestation,' and 'marriage.'
I can't believe Andre Carson's a Muslim. People who vote for him don't know that and do out out of the legacy created by his aunt Julia. That is so disturbing. He's a black dude from a nice neighborhood in Indianapolis. Just goe sto show who Democrats are willing to get in bed with.
And Ummah Gummah, we have a female muezzin and her name is Nancy Pelosadhimmi.
Abrahims brother, we'll give 'interfaith' dialogue a chance when Saudi Arabia is covered with churches, synagogues, Hindu temples, and accompanying unpersecuted Christians, Jews, and Hindus. Until that day comes, and until the Jihad stops, and until 100 years have passed since a single church, synagogue, or Hindu temple has been desecrated or even prevented from being built, and until the NATIVE Kashmiris and Jews in Jerusalem stop getting killed, you're just a typical hypocritical, narcissistic, deludely-entitled Muslim asking for everything you will never grant in return. We TRIED understanding, but the more reasonable, decent, thinking, moral, ethical, civilized, evoloved, outbred people learn about Islam the more repulsed we are. We will understand you and engage you in dialogue when you leave the cult and stop asking your moon-god to curse us five times a day.
Stendec, you the man.
DevilinPigh, if you're not a Muslim troll, stop being a dhimmi. Benjamin Netanyahu would kick your ass if he heard you talk like that. Read this article: "There is no way to save Israel without understanding the jihadic nature of the Palestinians. But Jews must be willing to study political Islam to save Israel." You make me half-ashamed to be half-Jewish.
I do think you're Muslim though because only a madrassa-educated (read: lacking in even a legitimate kindergarten education) Muslim would be so ridiculously ignorant as to call RS's post 'race-baiting.' Islam is not a race. The race card is what liberals invoke when they're losing an argument and what Muslims demopathically invoke when they know the truth is out and we're not your dhimmi. And if Robert Spencer were Jewish, do you think he would have written a book called 'Religion of Peace: Why Christianity is and Islam Isn't?' He's a Christian and a religious scholar.
The burden of proof is on the Muslim community. 1400 years of history, their very own doctrine, and the hateful, fascist chants they cry out as they slam their heads into the floor five times a day already prove them guilty, and yet, we still give them a chance as individuals because we have huge hearts and choose to try to see the good in people. Suspicion is never paranoid when it comes to Muslims, and there is therefore no such thing as Islamophobia.
Great post, jdamn!
I know that a couple of intelligent and terrific posters believe that DIP is Jewish, and I suppose that it is possible; but I still contend that the Devil is a Muslim troll, because I've seen way too many trolls JUST like him (or her) come on JW pretending to be Jewish with the sole purpose of making Jews look bad, who have used the same old tricks that this clown is using. I think we need to keep an eye on this "pretender", and whatever you guys do, do not open any of the links he has provided! I smell a rat, here, so please keep a safe distance. Protecting Robert and JW posters since 2003. Yours truly.