"Some of the prisoners were beheaded and their heads were shown to other prisoners," in accord with Qur'an 47:4. But apparently Delic knew nothing about all that. "Bosnia: UN tribunal sentences former Muslim commander to three years," from AKI, September 15 (thanks to C.C.):
The Hague, 15 Sept. (AKI) – Former Bosnian Muslim Army commander Rasim Delic was sentenced on Monday by the UN's Hague-based Yugoslav war crimes tribunal to three years in jail for crimes against Serb prisoners.Delic was held responsible for crimes committed by mujahadeen fighters from Islamic countries that fought under his command to help local Muslims in Bosnia’s bloody 1992-1995 civil war.
But two judges, Flavia Latanzzi and Frederick Harhoff, found him guilty only for brutal treatment of Serb prisoners, while the presiding judge, Bakone Moloto, argued that Delic’s responsibility for the alleged crimes had not been proven.
Delic was the head of the general staff of the Bosnian Army from 1993 to 1995 and was charged with chain of responsibility command.
During that period the “El Mujaheed” unit committed several crimes, killing over 70 Serb and Croatian prisoners of war.
Some of the prisoners were beheaded and their heads were shown to other prisoners.
But the court ruled Delic couldn’t have known about the murders and therefore could not have prevented them....
The verdict was likely to steer another storm of protests from Bosnian Serbs and Croats, who claim the Hague tribunal is a political court. The tribunal freed earlier this year two other Muslim commanders, Naser Oric and Sefer Halilovic for lack of evidence.
The president of the Bosnian Serb association of war prisoners, Nedeljko Mitrovic, said the verdict was proof that the tribunal is a biased court which doesn’t work from the evidence before it, but favours Muslims....
Sounds like Gitmo is a country club compared to this guy's Bosnia prisons.
The verdict was likely to steer another storm of protests from Bosnian Serbs and Croats, who claim the Hague tribunal is a political court.
The tribunal freed earlier this year two other Muslim commanders, Naser Oric and Sefer Halilovic for lack of evidence.
And the US Supreme Court Justices look to the ICC for their "enlightened view" as they interpret the US Constitution?
The Serbs and Croats have good reasons to protest -- but of course it won't do them any good since the US government is backing the muslim interests in their region of the world.
If the Bosnian Muslims are favored, that's quite understandable. They were the ones who were attacked without provocation on their home soil, by two Christian armies much better armed, who treated the entire Muslim population ruthlessly. I'm not about to cry for those beheaded Serbs. Bosnia was one of the few spots on the planet where peaceful coexistence was working pretty nicely. Now we can look forward to its breeding some of the best educated Jihadists. All thanks to those Serbs and Croats. Sorry, guys, but sometimes Christians need to take responsibility.
Was there ever any further news on those rumours/stories of young Serb prisoners having their organs harvested?
This is absolutely ridiculous. Watch Radovan Karadzic get a life sentence, and this idiot gets only three years. Karadzic is not a war criminal--this idiot is, and so is Oric. Yet both of them get off relatively easily.
Karl Pov, I disagree with you. The Bosnian Muslims have done absolutely nothing right. They were not attacked without provocation--they started the war. The Serbs have been constantly and continually vilified for years now, and it's getting rather stupid. Bosnia is a breeding ground for jihadists because the majority of its people are Muslims, not because of the Balkan wars. The Islam practised in the Balkans is the same form of Islam practised all over the world. There is no moderate form of Islam.
The Serbs were oppressed by Islam for centuries, after they lost the Battle of Kosovo in 1389. They remember to this day what it was like to live as dhimmis. The Muslims of the Balkans were trying to impose Islam on everybody, including Serbs, again (remember Izetbegovic's Islamic Declaration?). I do not blame the Serbs in the least for defending themselves.
The ICTY (International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia) is an extremely biased, anti-Serb court and is a disgrace to international justice.
Three (3) years in jail for multiple beheadings?
No, seriously - three years? Say that aloud: three years for beheading prisoners!!!
What the hell is that UN kangaroo court thinking!
DOWN WITH UN!
DOWN WITH UN!!
DOWN WITH UN!!!
Natalie, you evidently have news sources which reveal that Serbs, contrary to being the group which wound up with most of the arms after the breakup of Yugoslavia and used them to attack their former countrymen (starting in the Serb area of Croatia), are really a poor tiny helpless minority which can't help it if all those other former Yugoslavs ran onto their bayonets and got them dirty. I'm not denying that Serbs have suffered, as Germans suffered after WW2, but, just as with the Germans after WW2, they have largely brought it on themselves. It really doesn't become Serbs to become indignant about this, any more than it becomes some of today's Germans to whine about the Sudetenland.
"Now we can look forward to its breeding some of the best educated Jihadists. All thanks to those Serbs and Croats. Sorry, guys, but sometimes Christians need to take responsibility."
Posted by: Karl Pov
Ahh yes, the centuries old line "blame it on the Christian armies" since the Crusades. And I suppose we are supposed to blame the Christians around WW2 when the grandparents & parents of these present Bosnian Muslims were in the only non German Nazi SS divisions of the Hitler war machine? While the heritage of the Serbs were of helping the Allies defeat Hitler.
My my, how the worm has turned in the Balkans. Muslims duped Clinton and NATO to bomb the livin' snot out of the Serbs, including non military infrastructure over supposed "Christian aggression". The only ethnic cleansing happening now is of Serb Christians out of Korsovo by Albanian Muslims to fire their own little Caliphate.
Karl, I never said the Serbs were a helpless, tiny minority. I'm saying that our media has been, and continues to be, unfairly biased against them. The Serbs fought the Bosnians, but it was justified. The Balkan Muslims were aggressive against their Christian counterparts. I think the Serbs had every right to defend themselves. The relationship of the Croats to the Serbs is much more complicated, and is a discussion for another time.
Just consider this: throughout history, when have Muslims ever been on the right side of things?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNzTL4zu5Xg
Here is the glorious heritage of the Bosnian Muslims.
But still we must blame the Christians and the Jews. They must have drove the Muslims into the Nazi SS. [sarcasm btw]
Natalie, if you start with the premise that between Christians and Muslims, the Muslims are never right, your conclusions are not hard to predict. Again, the Serbs had the arms. The Muslims did not. Unless your view that the Muslims started it refers to 1940s history, which would frankly not surprise me.
Amazing. While I was writing, SoteriA proved my point.
Karl Pov somehow trusting the influence of Muslim Nazis on the Albanian mindset is not high on my list...that they were the peaceful ones assaulted by the blood thirsty Serbs. This situation is so typical of Muslims everywhere, because the same old thing happens over and over. Muslims blames the Hindus in India, Muslims blame the Jews in Israel, Muslims blame the English in Great Britain, Muslims blame the French in France.
On and on and on.
They all cry persecution and have their stories of how they are being oppressed, therefore Jihad is not their fault but a response, but whitewash these conflicts with their pious Islam is always right attitude. This is inherent where ever Muslims go, and we are supposed to believe its any different in the Balkans? And the pathetic dressed up as a excuse threat "if anybody retaliates against, its only going to produce more Jihadists."
Islam is a religion of peace [if you just roll over and don't resist us].
Karl, it may seem oversimplified, but it's true. Christians did bad things in the past, but Muslims have always done worse. If you read this site, you must be familiar with their bloody history. In a conflict between Christians and Muslims, I will always side with the Christians. In fact, I will side with just about anybody against the Muslims.
About Bosnia, they actually did have weapons. I don't know how well-armed they were in comparison to the Serbs, but I don't believe there was that much of a difference between the two sides. Perhaps the Serbs were a tad better armed--I'm not entirely sure. But regardless, they started the war and fought it very brutally. They are the true war criminals.
Nassir Oric and Rasim Delic need to have their heads sawed off, just like what was done to so many Serbs. Clinton and Madeline Halfbright were stooges for the muslim trash that has overrun the Balkans. The chickens will come home to roost in Bosnia. The war in the 90s is just a prelude for what is to come.
"Some of the prisoners were beheaded and their heads were shown to other prisoners"
......................................
But everyone knows that the true horror of our time is Abu Ghraib under the Americans--what are beheadings compared to prisoners compelled to wear women's panties on their heads?
Let's not lose perspective here.
sarc/off
Natalie, I am taking a wild guess that you are of Serb derivation and, like most other Serbs, see a different world than practically every non-Serb observer saw during the conflict in Bosnia.
How does any "Albanian mindset" enter into this? I've never heard the Bosniaks described as Albanians. The conflict between the Serbs and the Kosovars is considerably muddier than that between the Serbs and the Bosniaks, though as far as I can see the Serbs brought that one on themselves as well.
The Bosnian Serbs had Serbia behind them. The Bosniaks had nothing. I'm sure the Nazis complained about the ferocious atrocities visited on them by the Poles, just as Putin is complaining about the Georgians, and the Serbs complain about the Bosniaks.
Nope, I'm not Serbian. Are you Bosnian?
I am not the person who mentioned the phrase "Albanian mindset."
The important difference between the Serbs' complaints about the Bosnian Muslims and the Nazis' complaints about the Poles is that the Serbs' complaints are valid. Nice try with the whole Nazi comparison, but it doesn't fly. In the Nazi era, the Serbs were some of the few to resist the Nazis (and the Communists); in the past twenty years they have been some of the only Balkan peoples to resist the tide of Islamisation.
I'm not about to cry for those beheaded Serbs.
Being a muslim yourself, I don't suppose you would.
Three years... That's "justice".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYYbCq6tg5c
Jihad commander gets three years for crimes against prisoners
What? Three years in the electric chair?
Natalie, beg pardon for mixing you with SoteriA on that Albanian business.
Me? I'm an Irish-Catholic-descended atheist Islamophobe married to an Eastern Orthodox beauty from a country which nurses bad memories of its time under the Ottoman yoke. Difference between her country and Yugoslavia is that it has never been big on interethnic persecution (not counting Turks persecuting the locals), aside from a rather silly campaign to get ethnic Turks to take Christian names late in the Soviet era. Even its Jews lived through the Third Reich, although the country was formally tied to the Axis. Hope you can recognize the place by the description.
I have little love for Islam, but I do recognize that judging Muslims at fault in all situations is simple bigotry. In Bosnia, the Muslims were vastly outgunned. If the shoe had been on the other foot, they might have acted just as atrociously as the Serbs did, although we'll never know. The fact is, the Serbs vastly outgunned the Muslims and murdered them wholesale while the world looked on. This unfortunately made said world anxious to make up by siding too uncritically with the Kosovars down the line, a policy with which I'm not at all happy, although at least the Serbs were prevented from continuing in their policies of mass murder. If you aren't Serb yourself, I find it difficult to believe you've lived through those times with such blinders on your eyes that yhou don't realize these things. Granted, this forum does attract those who simply hate Muslims. I don't. I don't like Islam, but I try to judge human beings as individuals.
I like to think the Irish managed to grow out of religious wars as they entered this century. I'm by no means so optimistic about the Serbs, though I harbor hopes about the Croats, having grown up in the significantly Croat city of San Pedro, California.
Karl,
Your main argument is that "Serbs were better armed". So what? Having a gun doesn't make someone morally wrong, neither oposite is true. The USA is better armed than Iran and I hope you would not say that Ahmadinajad has higher moral ground because of that.
The war was started by Muslim Bosnian president Alija Izetbegovic (the author of the infamous "Islamic Declaration", read it and you'll get an idea about the main cause of Bosnian war). All sides were very cruel (as usual in the Balkans) and suffered proportionally. Serbs didn't act any worse than Muslims or Croats. Completely different issue is propaganda and Serbian complete lack of understanding how western media machinery works.
We lost the war because of two reasons. First, we weren't willing to completely defeat the enemy (which was easy to achieve because, as you said, we were much better armed at the beginning). Second, we completely ignored propaganda battlefield in the media where we were completely destroyed. That having consequences to this day, as can be seen from your posts.
Have peace
Karl, you sound like an intelligent person, based off the fact that you describe yourself as an Islamophobe. But I still say you're dead wrong on the Balkans.
The media has propagated lies against Serbia for a long time now, so much so that it's the one issue liberals and conservatives agree on. Left and right on the political spectrum may not agree on much, but they can agree that Serbia is bad.
As I said, those are outright lies. I know I mentioned Izetbegovic's Islamic Declaration earlier, and LazarOfSerbia did as well. Have you read any of it? You really ought to if you haven't. I've read excerpts and it is some scary stuff. Keep in mind this context (never told to us by the media) when thinking about the Balkan wars.
The Serbs were not murderers--they were defending themselves. The Bosnian Muslims started the war (Izetbegovic, to be specific). The Serbs defended themselves--surely that is not a crime.
Karl, I commend you for judging people as individuals, but the fact is that many individual Bosnian Muslims did horrible things in the Balkan wars and continue to do so in Kosovo today. There are even moderate Muslims scattered throughout the world, Muslims who don't understand the violence inherent in their own religion. But the Bosnian Muslims, as a whole, are not like this. They follow the same Islam that the 9/11 hijackers did.
I do applaud you for answering me civilly even though we are in disagreement. On certain blogs, a civil discussion such as this would not be possible.
I've heard of this Declaration, no I haven't read it, but I imagine it contains the usual Islamic garbage. I don't care about declarations. Serbs slaughtered the Bosnian Muslims wholesale. This was witnessed by many, many, many individuals who were on the scene. I don't see any reason to imagine that they all constituted a vast conspiracy to make the Serbs look bad. Why would anyone want to do such a thing? No one cared about Serbs until they started mass murdering their neighbors. The Serbs whine, whine, whine that everyone is misunderstanding them. Sorry. Everyone understands them very well. They are bloodthirsty murderers every bit as bad as Al Quaeda. The fact that the world reviles them is exactly what they deserve. And a few beheaded Serb murderers compare rather mildly to the mass graves and the rape camps administered by the Serbs.
I wasn't aware of Bosnian Muslims doing horrible things in Kosovo. From what I understand, the Kosovars don't need any help in such endeavors.
Karl Pov you can repeat the propaganda until you are blue in the face, and it will not change the truth you are merely parroting the lies. The myth of a Serbian mass graves to "they deserve it" because the world believed the propaganda? When t came time for hard evidence, all the sudden the mass graves became stuff of legends without any concrete facts. The war was horrid for both sides, yet only the Serbs are the evil because they were better equiped at the beginning, until NATO stepped in and annihilated any Serb infrastructure, military AND civilian? While the Muslims brought in by the thousands the usual Jihadists for hire, these blood thirsty murderers still refuse to leave, keeping Serbian families fighting for their existence...and murdering any reporter trying to get their reports on it out to the world. You ignore the fact since the Muslims gained the upper hand through Clinton's criminal abuse of NATO firepower, The Muslims are one brutalizing & cleansing the Serbs, burning down hundreds of churches, effectively laying waste to any Serbian Christian heritage in order to establish their Islamic Caliphate.
Just another typical Islamic takeover. Blame everything on those resisting them, while they commit horrid crimes against humanity in their glorious Jihad.
Serbs defended their homes and families my friend. If you ask people who were really on the scene, almost all of them will defend Serbs. Ask Canadian general Lewis McKenzie who was commander of UNPROFOR in Sarajevo. Or ask Dutch soldiers who were in Srebrenica in 1995 and now are willing to testify in defense of Radovan Karadzic. Strange, isn't it?
Take look at this documentary and you will understand what really happened:
"Yugoslavia: The Avoidable War"
Part 1: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5860186121153047571&ei=5G_QSOqVN4Xc-AH9mpyyAg
Part 2: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6371060303901674397&ei=5G_QSOqVN4Xc-AH9mpyyAg
I would also recommend a documentary about Slobodan Milosevic. It's available on Google Video and is called "The Milosevic Case: Glosses at a Trial." I would provide links, but my comments on this website never go through when I try to do that.
Karl, it really saddens me that you would say that about the Serbs. They are our allies against jihad, yet you lump them together with al-Qaeda. All those supposed mass graves were from about ten to fifteen years BEFORE the war occurred. The Serbs didn't slaughter anybody in Srebrenica--they killed the Bosnian Muslims in military combat. Srebrenica was supposed to be a UN safe haven, but the Bosnian Muslims were using it to launch attacks against the Serbs in surrounding areas. When the UN did nothing, Karadzic ordered his forces to step in. Everybody killed there (who were men of military age) died in battle. There was no murder--it was a war. Both sides had weapons. The Serbs were simply killing their enemies, as is typically done in war.
"They are our allies against jihad, yet you lump them together with al-Qaeda..."
Huh, it is unbelievable how thick-skinned we became to insults like this... It was Bosnian Muslim government who provided Osama Bin Laden with Bosnian passport back in 90's, it was Bosnian Muslim government who had division of bloodthirsty mujahideen from Arab countries beheading our soldiers and at the end Serbs who fought against his mujahideen are like Al-Quaeda... Strange logic.
And let me remind you one very important fact my friend Karl - there are two million Serbs in the USA. And when Bill Clinton bombed our homeland to ashes, not even one - not even one! - American Serb did anything against the USA. While US war planes were killing our parents, brothers, sisters and friends in Serbia, not even one stone was thrown by American Serbs, not even one American flag was burnt and trampled. No - we pledge allegiance to that flag and the Republic for which it stands up to this day because we admire great principles of "liberty and justice for all" upon which it is built by Lincoln, Washington and Jefferson.
That tells you enough who is real American friend. Try to bomb Bosnian or Albanian Muslims like you bombed Serbs and you will see how "pro-American" they will be.
"I imagine it contains the usual Islamic garbage. I don't care about declarations." From Karl the Pov above.
Perhaps you should read the 'usual Islamic garbage'. Perhaps you should start caring about their declarations. Perhaps these Koranimals are taking this 'usual Islamic garbage' seriously. Perhaps you should too.
LazarOfSerbia ain't lying....
A wee bit of Irish covers a multitude of sins in my book.
Anyway, I judge muslims at fault for all the situations which they delight in taking credit for -- and that ain't bigotry lad; tis reality.
You'll learn quick enough when your throat is at the wrong side of the blade and chants of allahu akbar are ringing in your ears.
The beginning of the war in former Yugoslavia has nothing to do with Islam per se, since the bosnian muslims were rather "lazy" practicer and understander of their own religion (as a result of the communistic rulership from 1945. - 1990.). In fact the genesis of the conflict has little to do with religion at all, it's more ethnically based. But without doubt, religion will have a great importance during the war, since the absence of communism has created a great vacuum, both politically - which will give rise to nationalism, and religiously - which will result with the reafirmation of Orthodox Christendom and Islam, religions that had been systematically weakend during the communist period. On the contrary, Roman Catholicism was relatively strong even during the communistic era, it was actively practiced more than any other religion in former Yugoslavia. But this can be explained with the nearness to Vatican and the fact that many people in Croatia were anti-communistic orientated.
The truth is that the main reason for war was the rise of serbian nationalism and irredentism, not only among Serbs in Serbia, but also in Bosnia and Croatia, were they were significant minorities. Radicalisation of the Serbs started in the 80' when Milošević came to power and when the JNA (The yugoslav army) started to transform from a rather multinational and communist army to an instrument of future serbian expansionism. In 1987., the percantage of Serbs among officers in the "yugoslav army" was higher than 75% (!). So, basically the JNA was an instrument of serbian nationalism, as it proved to be in Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegowina during the 90'. Another thing people are actually trying to forget is the Memorandum of the Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts, from 1986, which further heated up tension in the multiethnic state. I don't think I should mention the Gazimestan speech?
Everyone who truly believes that serbian nationalism is not the main reason for the war in former Yugoslavia is pretty naive, since there is an overwhelming number of evidences which support this statement. And beside that, remember that the first destroyed village in the war in Bosnia and Herzegowina was Ravno, a croatian village that had been surrounded and destroyed in November 1991. by a unit of the yugoslav army, which coincidentally consisted almost only of Serbs.
Antemurale, you're a breath of fresh air, but I can't agree about ethnicity vs. religion here. Serbs and Croats are defined by their religious affiliation. Even if a Croat is an atheist, he's a Roman Catholic atheist, and a Serb atheist is nonetheless an Eastern Orthodox atheist. Islam isn't the only unhealthy religion. Fortunately the examples of Christianity activating slaughter like this have become rather rare. My ancestral people the Irish were among the most backward in this respect (though I know that some still insist that religion had nothing to do with the Irish conflict either).
Oh, and for the army of Serbophiles: I did take a brief look at Izetbegovic's Declaration. Looks pretty sensible by Muslim standards. (Admittedly, parts of Mein Kampf look pretty sensible as well.) To what precisely are you referring, or have you indeed read it yourselves?
They have the audacity to mention "Abu Ghraib" when they are the savage pigs.
The Bosniaks had nothing.
Sure, I guess if you don't count the thousands of mujahadeen fighters from the middle east and all the money coming in from saudi arabia, the bosniaks had nothing.
The BBC just recently did a story on the large amounts of these middle eastern fighters who have not left Bosnia and are getting ready for the "next" war.
But of course, that will all be the Serbs fault also....
Actually, there were a few hundred Muslim volunteers from outside Bosnia who participated in the war, far outnumbered by Serbs (from Serbia) and Russians on the other side. They brought themselves while the Bosnian side needed not bodies, but arms. They awakened little enthusiasm among the Bosnian Muslims, although pan-Islamist Izetbegovic was an exception.
The fact remains that as can best be determined, the overwhelming number of civilian casualties in the Bosnian war were those of Bosnian Muslims: some 33 thousand, or 85%. As I said, the Serbophiles are whining about being held responsible for a war they started and in which they spilled most of the blood. They are as contemptible as Nazi Holocaust deniers.
None of this makes Muslims perfect people or Islam a wonderful religion. Islam stinks, and stinks more the more faithfully it's followed. But Muslims don't have a monopoly on atrocities. Neither Hitler nor Stalin nor Pol Pot were Muslims. Those who can't understand that Muslims can be victims as well as victimizers are bigots.
Karl-
You think the Islamic Declaration is sensible? What part of it did you read? Izetbegovic advocated inserting Islam into everybody's lives. That alone is singularly alarming, and I don't blame the Serbs for being annoyed about it.
There were a massive number of Serb casualties during the Balkan wars, which were mostly the result of NATO criminal bombing of Serbia.
Anybody who says the Serbs committed genocide (whether at the Srebrenica "massacre" or elsewhere) during the Balkan wars insults all the victims of real genocides such as the Holocaust.
In every major conflict in history in which they have been involved, Muslims have been the victimisers. In the past hundred years, they have tried to get away with portraying themselves as the victims, and have unfortunately succeeded.
The Bosnian Muslims followed the same Islam that is practised today in the Middle East, which is the same Islam that Mohammed invented. A moderate form of Islam does not exist.
Karl wrote:
- "overwhelming number of civilian casualties in the Bosnian war were those of Bosnian Muslims: some 33 thousand, or 85%"
The truth is:
Research done by ICTY prosecution states that "number of killed civilian Muslims and Croats [is] around 38,000, while the number of killed civilian Serbians was about 16,700." This is directly proportional to the population, meaning that every nation suffered equally. Also, have in mind that there was heavy fighting between Croats and Muslims and between Muslim fractions themselves. For example, Alija's mujahideen completely wiped out "Western Bosnia" of moderate muslim leader Fikret Abdic - who was in fact allied with "evil Serbs" and willing to negotiate to end the war.
To repeat once again - the war was not started by Serbs, but by islamic fundamentalist Alija Izetbegovic who wanted to create pure Islamic state. Serbs in Bosnia are not "from Serbia", but lived there for centuries. In fact, Bosnian Muslims are descendants of Christians (Serbs and Croats) who converted to Islam during the Ottoman occupation.
Etc. etc.
You are writing lies my friend
Natalie: "You think the Islamic Declaration is sensible? What part of it did you read? Izetbegovic advocated inserting Islam into everybody's lives. That alone is singularly alarming, and I don't blame the Serbs for being annoyed about it."
About what? The Declaration? Or what somebody has told them is in it? If you're so upset about the Declaration, why can't you directly quote it to show why?
Try this part:
"The main, if not the only, proponent of the conservative idea in the Muslim world today is the class represented by the hajjs and sheikhs who, in contrast to clear dictates on the nonexistence of a clergy in Islam, have emerged as an organized class which has preempted the interpretation of Islam and set itself up as an intermediary between man and the Qu’ran. As clergy, they are theologians; as theologians, they are invariably dogmatic and, as the faith has been given once and for all, in their opinioni it has also been interpreted once and for all. Therefore the best thing to do is to leave everything as it was handed down and defined a thousand or more years ago. The unavoidable logic of these dogmatists turns theologians into bitter enemies of anything new. Any further remodelling of the Sharia as law, in the sense of applying Qu’ranic principles to new situations which continue to emerge from world developments, is equated with an attack on the integrity of the faith. Perhaps even here there is a love of Islam, but it is the pathological love of narrowminded and backward people, whose deathlike embrace has strangled the still living Islamic idea."
Looks remarkably sensible to me. Do you have a problem with the above? Looks to me much like the sort of thinking Robert Spencer has recommended for the elaboration of a relatively decent, tolerable form of Islam. (Personally, I don't see much future for the reform road, but I have to admire those who attempt it.)
How about this:
"... The first and foremost of such conclusions is surely the one on the incompatibility of Islam and non-Islamic systems. There can be no peace or coexistence between the "Islamic faith" and non- Islamic societies and political institutions. ... Islam clearly excludes the right and possibility of activity of any strange ideology on its own turf. Therefore, there is no question of any laicistic principles, and the state should be an expression and should support the moral concepts of the religion. ..."
page 22
"... the Islamic movement should and must start taking over the power as soon as it is morally and numerically strong enough to not only overthrow the existing non-Islamic, but also to build up a new Islamic authority. ..."
page 43
"... We would like to distinguish between Jews and Zionists, but only if Jews themselves find strength to find the difference. We hope that the military victories, which they had against quarrelling Arab regimes, (not against Arabs or against Muslims) will not blur their minds. We hope that they will eliminate confrontation which they made by them- selves, so the new road is open to a life on the common ground of Palestine. If they, though, continue on the road of arrogance, which is more likely, then for the whole Islam movement, and FOR ALL MUSLIMS THERE IS BUT ONE SOLUTION: TO CONTINUE TO FIGHT, TO STRENGTHEN AND BROADEN IT, FROM DAY TO DAY, FROM YEAR TO YEAR, NO MATTER THE VICTIMS AND NO MATTER THE TIME it may last, until they are forced to RETURN EVERY INCH OF THE OCCUPIED LAND. EVERY NEGOTIATION AND EVERY COMPROMISE ON THIS FUNDAMENTAL ISSUE FOR OUR BROTHERS IN PALESTINE, WILL BE A TREASON WHICH MAY DESTROY THE VERY CORE OF THE MORAL SYSTEM OF OUR WORLD.
These are not new laws of our new Islam politics toward Christians and Jews, not new laws dictated by the new political situation. They are just the practical conclusions taken from the Islamic recognition of Christians and Jews which come right from the Qu'ran (Qu'ran, 29/45, 2/136, 5/47-49)"
pages 53-54
@ Karl Pov
I can't agree with your statement that Croats and Serbs are defined by their religions. The clearest example for this are the muslims in Bosnia and Herzegowina which declared thereselves as Croats in the end of the 19th century and during the first half of the 20th century (untill the end of WW2). Many of them joined the nationalistic Ustasha movement, and many muslims held high positions in the WW2 croatian state. Another similar case are the orthodox Croats, which number decreased enormously, due to the fact that Orthodox Christendom in Croatia is tied to the Serbian Orthodox Church, which has a rather nationalistic policy. Famous orthodox Croatians were austro-hungarian WW1 general Svetozar Boroević von Bojna, or WW2 ace pilot Mato Dukovac. Regarding the Serbs, during the 19th century there was a group in the region of Dubrovnik who declared themselves as "Srbokatolici" - that means serbian catholics.
Lazar, you've demonstrated that Izetbegovic wrote the Declaration as a Muslim, but we already knew this. I still see nothing there to alarm Serbs to the point of mass slaughter of Bosnian Muslims. Izetbegovic opposes the establishment of an Islamic society until the Muslim population is "morally and numerically strong enough," a situation which did not and does not obtain in Bosnia, which as far as I can see is never mentioned in the Declaration. I would still say that by Muslim standards, the Declaration is quite progressive.
Why do you think that practically every observer in Bosnia found that the Serbs were slaughtering the Muslim population wholesale? Is it all a conspiracy against those innocent Serbs? Why? Who even was aware of Serbs as a population before they started their genocidal campaigns? There was no pre-existing anti-Serb prejudice; I'd say that there was more prejudice against Bulgarians (due in part to their genuinely friendly feelings toward the Soviet Union) than against Serbs. It's only a tiny minority of Serbs and Serbophiles who, like the tiny minority of Holocaust deniers, are unable to see what everyone else saw.
"There can be NO PEACE OR COEXISTENCE between the "Islamic faith" and non- Islamic societies and political institutions"
Nothing strange for you here?
""... the Islamic movement should and MUST START TAKING OVER THE POWER as soon as it is morally and numerically strong enough to not only OVERTHROW the existing non-Islamic, but also to build up a new Islamic authority. ...""
And here?
"FOR ALL MUSLIMS THERE IS BUT ONE SOLUTION: TO CONTINUE TO FIGHT, TO STRENGTHEN AND BROADEN IT, FROM DAY TO DAY, FROM YEAR TO YEAR, NO MATTER THE VICTIMS AND NO MATTER THE TIME"
???
LazarOfSerbia:
>"There can be NO PEACE OR COEXISTENCE between >the "Islamic faith" and non- Islamic societies >and political institutions"
>
>Nothing strange for you here?
Nothing which remotely justifies the mass slaughter of Bosnian Muslims. That's what we've been discussing, though you seem to think you're cleverly diverting the discussion to whether Izetbegovic once wrote an objectionable Declaration.
Aside from that, you've taken the statement out of context, which is that he is talking of an Islamic society which, by his own definition, Bosnia is not.
Antemurale, thanks for your further thoughtful contribution. I do wonder, though, if religion does not define ethnicity, what was the point of the oft-quoted Fascist Croat solution to the Serb problem, which was to kill a third, chase a third out of the country, and convert the remaining third to Catholicism.
As for the Bosnian Muslims, I've never found very certain information on their non-religious ethnic identity. I think both the Serbs and the Croats claim them as brothers, taking the Cain-Abel relationship as their model.
What "mass slaughter"?
You mean this:
http://real-srebrenica-genocide.blogspot.com
Let me tell you again - Bosnian Serbs just defended their own houses and families from an army of bloodthirsty mujahideen. That is what everyone who was really there would tell you. They didn't provoke the war, they didn't start it. You can see above what Oric's mujahideen did to Serbian civilians, but when Serbs captured Srebrenica they protected and escorted all Muslim civilians to the safe area. We can only be proud about our soldiers.
Imagine someone did to your father this:
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/6562/1985/400/005.0.jpg
And to your brother this:
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/6562/1985/400/031.jpg
Then you capture his family and instead of taking revenge you organize food, water and transport them to safety. Not many people in the world would act that way. And you can continue repeating mantra about "evil Serbs" as much as you like, but that's just Muslim propaganda. Their mujahideen were worse than animals in that war, as in all other conflicts in the Balkans and all over the world.
>You can see above what Oric's mujahideen did to
>Serbian civilians, but when Serbs captured
>Srebrenica they protected and escorted all
>Muslim civilians to the safe area.
To respond with "ROTFL" would be disrespectful of the victims. I really don't know what to say in the face of such baldface mendacity. I'll leave any last words to you and your fellow Serbs and Serbophiles -- this has become too ridiculous for me.
The Serbs were alarmed by the Islamic Declaration, but they did not do anything immediately.
The Bosnian (and Albanian) Muslims continued their provocation, and still the Serbs did nothing.
Finally their conflict exploded in war, a war started by Izetbegovic and his Bosnian Muslims.
The Serbs fought back, obviously. And think about how you would feel if your family were murdered by Naser Oric's forces, for example, right before your very eyes. What if you had to see them beheaded and mutilated? And then, to make things even worse, the whole rest of the world either stood by and watched or supported the murdering war criminals.
Is it any wonder that Serbs are angry about this? Even today, they are blamed the the crimes that were committed AGAINST them during the Balkan wars. Their leaders are vilified and arrested and tried in kangaroo courts while the true war criminals walk free to this very day.
I agree, I would love to see a moderate, peaceful form of Islam arise. But I do know one thing: as of right now, such a movement has never existed, and Izetbegovic's Islamic Declaration is no exception.
Well Karl, even the biased liberal media has reported that all the Muslim women in Srebrenica were escorted out.
Karl Pov,
You said ..."Aside from that, you've taken the statement out of context, which is that he is talking of an Islamic society which, by his own definition, Bosnia is not."
I gather from this and from other postings you wrote that you are ashamed for being a Muslim, I feel your pain. You do not have to spread lies about what happened there. A relative of mine was an American soldier who was ordered to fight on your side; he saw by far more atrocities committed by the Mujahideen against the Christian Serbs than the other way around - take it from someone who was fighting on your side. No body prosecuted the Mujahideen. They were given a free pass for all the atrocities they committed against the Christian Serbians.
a few hundred Muslim volunteers from outside Bosnia who participated in the war
Ow really, only a few hundred.... I guess that saudi money was only in the few hundreds also...
far outnumbered by Serbs (from Serbia)
Nothing unusual considering bosnia was part of serbia...
and Russians on the other side.
Russians, really... have not heard much about that, but you claim more russians fought for serbia than then mujahadeenb fought for bosnian muslims????
You haven't even stated whether you are okay with this verdict??? Just deserts for those nasty mean blood thirsty serbs, huh...
Karl Pov said:
*I do wonder, though, if religion does not define ethnicity, what was the point of the oft-quoted Fascist Croat solution to the Serb problem, which was to kill a third, chase a third out of the country, and convert the remaining third to Catholicism.*
Well, as I said before Orthodox Christendom in Croatia is strongly tied to the Serbian Orthodox Church (SPC), which is an institution strongly influenced by serbian nationalism. That's one of the reason the mentioned institution was disbanded and replaced by the Croatian Orthodox Church (HPC 1942. - 1945.). The West has a rather wrong opinion regarding the ustasha movement and his view on religion, basically it's principles are founded on secularism. I would recommend you to read this here: http://www.library.unsw.edu.au/~thesis/adt-NUN/uploads/approved/adt-NUN20070911.113128/public/01front.pdf
It's the introduction to the work "The Ideology of Nation and Race: the Croatian Ustasha regime and its policies toward the Serbs in the Independent State of Croatia" Regarding muslims in NDH
*As for the Bosnian Muslims, I've never found very certain information on their non-religious ethnic identity.*
Just one example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C5%BEafer-beg_Kulenovi%C4%87
Also, another rather unkown fact is that the most elite ustasha unit - The so called Black Legion - was made up of about 80% muslims from eastern Bosnia, mostly survivors of chetnik massacres.
*I think both the Serbs and the Croats claim them as brothers, taking the Cain-Abel relationship as their model.*
I agree with your statement, but not completely, I don't think that Serbs consider bosnian muslims as their brothers, just ask one of the Serbs on this page. ;)
"To respond with "ROTFL" would be disrespectful of the victims"
Well, only problem is "the victims" were, as reported by western liberal media, "men and boys". Translated to everyday English this means "soldiers" - fully armed division of mujahideen in "demilitarized" "safe zone" under protection of UN. And they were attacking Serbian villages killing women, children and elderly people in most gruesome ways:
http://real-srebrenica-genocide.blogspot.com
Take a look Karl. Take a good look.
Your "victims" did this.
Karl Pov:
Got any bigoted, stereopyping "wild guesses" about my background?
Do you know the word "Celebici"? A Bosnian Muslim torture-murder camp for Serb civilians? And they did not have "The Serbs started it" excuse: it operated from the start of the war in Apr. 1992. An old Serb man driven a Muslim badge with a long nail into his hand, brothers forced to have sex with each other, fathers with their daughters, under the threat of torture, then tortured and murdered. Not comely of me to mention?
The Truth - hard evidence of crimes commited against Serbs:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6431302053204441995&hl=en
(Documentary starts at 21 min)
And latest Muslim jewel, not reported by western media at all (and no, this is not "conspiracy", this is most likely idiocy):
"Recognize Kosovo or Serb babies will die"
http://www.serbianna.com/news/2008/03044.shtml
Serbian infants, some in incubators, are on a verge of death because of lack of oxygen that is deliberately held back until Kosovo Serbs recognize Kosovo as an independent state.
“If you want your babies and elderly to live, if you want oxygen, recognize independent Kosovo,” quotes a message Dr. Stojan Sekulic from the General Hospital in Gracanica received.
Dr. Sekulic says that the separatist authorities in the province have seized oxygen bottles sent to his hospital from Belgrade and have told him that they will be delivered only when Serbs recognize Kosovo.
Spokesman for UNMIK at the administrative border crossing at Kosovo says that the driver of the oxygen shipment only had a bill that the oxygen was paid for.
“That was absolutely inadequate. He did not have complete documentation for imports. To enter Kosovo he needed to have a permission by the Ministry of Health of an independent Kosovo,” says the spokesman. The spokesman added that the oxygen will be released only when a complete documentation is submitted.
Hospital in Gracanica has nearly run out of oxygen.