"I was wearing my kippah and readily identifiable as a Jew; however, they screamed at me 'Nazi Raus.'"

"Cologne, Nazi-free city, says yes to Islamization" --From Sept. 21 JW article

The German's just can't learn, can they?

Such lies and distortions are probably what help convince our own media to ignore such events altogether as just so much marginal "extremism" going on somewhere in Europe.

People in a democracy get the government they deserve and they deserve the government they get.
That is as true in the US as it is in the EU. The people will have to make their choices and must accept responsibility for their decisions. None of us can point the finger at anyone else. If Europeans are willing to tolerate fascism, that's their business, not mine.

Indeed, Cologne Mayor Fritz Schramma called the episode "a victory for the city of Cologne and a victory by the democratic forces of the city."

Mayor Schramma was elected by the people. It's up to them to choose what to do. They want mob rule, then we can't do anything.

No one can save people who don't want to be saved.

'The thugs among the counter-demonstrators mounted a rock-and-bottle attack that shattered windows on a river boat plying the Rhine where the politicians attempted to hold a pre-rally meeting. They blocked urban trains in order to keep rally participants away. They ringed the city center with barricades (tolerated by German police), hurled paint bombs, lit fires and launched violent attacks on some of the participants who managed to draw near the rally location. '

typical Muslim protest....I would call it a ground assault...and the police did nothing..

in the near future the Muslims may be throwing grenades instead of paint bombs, may be blowing up trains instead of blocking them. ring the city with snipers instead of barricades...may be setting IEDs instead of small fires...

violent Muslim protests should not be tolerated..not one bit...stopping them will be ugly...not stopping them will be uglier...

errata....even violent protests by Non Muslims should be tolerated....

not all the protestors were Muslim....

but definitely sympathizers..

Yes and no. As in Europe, huge mosque complexes are opening across the States -- one very recently in Boston and another in Atlanta. Do they portend the extension and entrenchment of Islamic law in the United States?

Yes, they do exactly that. Extension first, and then entrenchment.
'If you build it they will come', and they will have sharia with them when they get here.
A muslim without sharia is like a fish without a bicycle.

Stop muslim immigration.
Throw out illegals.
Stop building mosques.

Support Tancredo's anti-sharia bills...

Here is a good video about the islamification of Britain
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWFLaKBamVE

Support Tancredo's anti-sharia bills...

Posted by: duh_swami

As if Pelosi would let them be brought up for a vote.
As if she would send them to the Senate and then Reid would let them be brought up for a vote.

This Congress will soon go out of business. Unless Tancredo has someone who will take up these bills and introduce them in the next Congress then they will die when this Congress adjourns. Pelosi certainly won't call a lame duck session for bills introduced by a lame duck.
Congress is busy with other things, like the financial meltdown. They haven't even passed all their spending bills. And ninety percent of them will be reelected, no matter what they do!
We're getting what we deserve.

Where's Tancredo, anyway?

He's riding off into the sunset!

Is this the Europe we are repeatedly told to be more receptive to? To be more understanding of? To be more like them? Ahhhhhhhh I don't think so!

There are reasons the USA has had to act unilaterally in Worlds affairs. This is but one of them.

The German's just can't learn, can they?
Posted by: darcy

---

Not so fast. some of us have earned indeed. We happen to be in the minority. Show me the ONE country - except maybe Serbia - where the population is aware of the dangers and the imminent threat of islamification.

Moreover, since WW2 the Germans have been cowed into being "good little pacifists" and some 60-odd years later we now have militant pacifists of the kind seen marauding not only in Cologne but often in Berlin and other places.

The government can't oppose them for fear of being labeled.

Don't count on Germany as the leader in the anti-islamic resistance.

But don't count on Great Britain either.

My money is on Denmark, Italy, maybe Poland if islam ever tries to crack that Bastion of Catholicism who are not afraid to stand up for their own culture as the Germans are.

Ummah Gummah: I don't expect Germany to take any leading role in the early years, no. That will be left to the Danes, the Italians and others. But don't count out the Brits just yet.

http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2008/08/on-germany-and-muslims.html

I know many Austrians and Germans still suffer from a guilt complex from WW2, but this is deeply misplaced with regards to Muslims, and Turks in particular. Turks are guilty of more than one thousand years of persecution and genocide against various European peoples and are in no position to complain, with their main victims in the Balkans. They threatened European freedom for centuries, and many Muslims both within and outside of Turkey now apparently want to resurrect the Ottoman Empire and use the Balkans as a launching pad for Jihad against Europe. They get help in this undertaking from the European Union.

The EU is, among other things, a continuation of the propaganda methods of Nazi Germany and the unaccountable bureaucracy of the Soviet Union, two entities that put together killed more than one hundred million people. This makes it all the more insane that the Eurocrats and their Multiculturalist cheerleaders get away with labelling their critics “extremists.” EU Commissioner Margot Wallstrom said in 2005 that Europeans had to vote “yes” to the proposed EU Constitution or risk a new Holocaust. Forget the part that the EU is in the process of turning itself into a pan-European totalitarian state, a process that would be more or less completed with the proposed Constitution/Lisbon Treaty. The EU is thus using the memory of a previous totalitarian state in order to create a new totalitarian state. The organization is directly responsible for triggering a massive wave of street violence and political violence across the European continent, at least the Western half of it.

The entire Western world has been infected by the mental virus of Political Correctness. We are all sick, but some countries still have stronger immune systems than others. I don’t think Germany is any sicker than France, Britain or Spain. Germany will be weighed down by its history and thus prevented from taking an early leading role in Europe’s struggle for survival, yes. The early phases will likely be led by the Italians and smaller countries such as Denmark and Switzerland. But I wouldn’t count the Germans out in the longer term. They have a golden opportunity to redeem themselves and play a role as defenders of European civilization.

When Gandhi asked the British to leave India he said, “You must understand that India is for Indians the way that England is for the English.” As one American blog reader commented, Gandhi is considered a good guy and a hero while any German, Swiss, Austrian, Italian, Serb or Greek who says that his country belongs to his people is vilified. It’s time we stop accepting this. Europeans have every bit as much right to fight for our existence as everybody else does.

I've read extensively online in the German papers and websites on this.

While it seems to be true that some of the participants are extremely right-wing people ourselves, it is also in no way established that many or any of the other 1500 people who tried to attend were particularly right-wing, let alone white supremacists or similar. Many were Cologne citizens who just don't want a super-size mosque on their doorstep.

The encouraging thing is this: the majority of comments I've read maintain that it was the role of the police to get the attendees safely through the barricades into their conference, not to block them off and not to allow counter-demonstrators to block and attack them.

Apart from a very few hooligan-type comments of the 'those Nazis got what they deserved: a beating' variety, the general consensus is that laws were broken, and with police support. Laws such as freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, and safe passage.

There will be an aftermath in which not the young hyper-excited mob makes the decisions, but the German constitution: do even people called 'Nazis' (surely an unproven accusation for most of the 1500) get their basic rights, or is a violent witch-hunt allowed if some Germans simply don't like one's supposed views?

Keeping in mind how many 'silent majority' people wrote sensibly on this topic, and that many of the young demonstrators will wake up eventually, when they see their freedoms threatened, I don't think Germany is as lost as you may fear.

Also, there are many secular and completely non-islamic Turks who don't want islam to get a stronghold. They were represented in the significant group of ex-muslims and true liberals at the event who were almost ignored by the media but who will eventually attract the young liberals who start thinking and the middle-roaders who don't want to ally with Pro-Koeln.

The multiculturalist extreme left has not come out of this well at all.

Whoops: for "While it seems to be true that some of the participants are extremely right-wing people ourselves" please read 'themselves'.

That wasn't a freudian slip, I assure you, just a typo.

Robert: we need an editing function!

Heck, who are we to rag on anyone in Europe? Did you guys hear McCain extolling the virtues of an Islamic Kosovo in the debate!? An Islamic Kosovo against the bad Serbs! I had to turn off the debate at that point I was so completely sickened. I feel like puking just writing this. This whole mess makes me sick right now, people are so ignorant. In regards to the Bills Tom Tancredo has been trying to initiate. I keep getting responses like, I thought Sharia was a NAME! or what is sharia? In regards to the emails I have been sending people with a short cut to the legislation attached. I politely tell them, “Oh perhaps I should have sent a link to define that for you as well”. FRICK! I slap the air.

Will this Diana West article at JW disappear without comment like the last one?

Cornelius,
Will this thread vanish?

Time will tell.

Lili,

Thanks for giving me hope. You point out that there are many secular Turks who don't want Islam to gain a foothold. The problem is that a silent majority is a useless majority.

The majority of people may not WANT something but they'll GO ALONG with it in order to maintain peace and tranquility. A determined minority can bring the majority along with it. A vocal minority can overwhelm a silent majority.
The silent majority has one weapon: the vote. However, too many people will vote the way they have always voted, regardless of what it portends. If you're a Democrat because you've always been a Democrat then it won't matter to you what the Democrats do. You'll vote Democrat out of sheer force of habit.
What do the Turks in Germany support? Do they support the same party that the Islamist rabble-rousers do? Then it doesn't matter what they want. They'll get what the Islamists will force upon them. Politicians will listen to those who make the most noise.

So, let me get this straight;

If leftists act like the thugs they are, then we ought to align ourselves with Ethnic Nationalists?

That's Diana West's point recently.

On that point, she is definitely incomparable.

Does the continued posting of Diana West's articles here at Jihad Watch mean that the counter-Jihad is going to be left with just Jawa Report and Infidel Bloggers Alliance as the only blogs which refuse to cave to the Ethnic Nationalists of Europe?

I'm becoming very concerned.

The German's just can't learn, can they?
Posted by: darcy

Not so fast. some of us have earned indeed. We happen to be in the minority.--ummah gummah

I was speaking generally, ummah gummah. Of course there are exceptions, plenty of them, and you are one!

Support Tancredo's anti-sharia bills...
Posted by: duh_swami

As if Pelosi would let them be brought up for a vote.
As if she would send them to the Senate and then Reid would let them be brought up for a vote...

We're getting what we deserve.

Where's Tancredo, anyway?

He's riding off into the sunset!
Posted by: PMK

I don't know that 'we' are getting what 'we' deserve, but maybe some of us are.

You are probably right that Pelosi won't allow it.

Are you suggesting that we 'not' support Tancredo's anti-sharia bills?

Does the continued posting of Diana West's articles here at Jihad Watch mean that the counter-Jihad is going to be left with just Jawa Report and Infidel Bloggers Alliance as the only blogs which refuse to cave to the Ethnic Nationalists of Europe?

I'm becoming very concerned.
Posted by: pastorius

Which side are you on

Was it not Voltaire who said, "I may disagree with what you say, but I will break your ribs with my steel-toed boots if you dare to say it"?

No... wait... I think I have that wrong.

The original flyer for the event in English included LePen whom I loathe, the Valaams Blang, of whom I am suspicious, and some people I never heard of. Still, I would support their right to be heard, to make their case, and let the people judge.

Meanwhile, there's nothing in the street looks any different to me: The only time I was in Cologne was during the 80's when their was a big Anti-Reagan, No Nukes die-in in front of the cathedral. Yeah, I felt scared to be an American tourist. The world looks just the same and history ain't changed... but Voltaire didn't say that either.

When Hitler came to power, the Germans were starving. What is their excuse this time with Islam coming to power?

I'm becoming very concerned.

Posted by: pastorius at September 27, 2008 8:44 AM

Pastorius and his phantomous charge of "ethnic nationalism" never rests. His charges, seen most recently over at Atlas:

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2008/09/atlas-exclusi-1.html

Regarding West's piece, it seems that to people like Pastorius, that the message is subservient to the squeaky clean image of the messenger.

I am in no way supporting a concept of nationalistic acceptance based on race, but pastorius' overt threat to this site to discontinue articles from West, lest it be deemed to have "caved to the ethnic nationalists" is disgusting and in itself, fascist.

I'm becoming very concerned.

Posted by: pastorius at September 27, 2008 8:44 AM

Pastorius and his phantomous charge of "ethnic nationalism" never rests. His charges, seen most recently over at Atlas:

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2008/09/atlas-exclusi-1.html

Regarding West's piece, it seems that to people like Pastorius, that the message is subservient to the squeaky clean image of the messenger.

I am in no way supporting a concept of nationalistic acceptance based on race, but pastorius' overt threat to this site to discontinue articles from West, lest it be deemed to have "caved to the ethnic nationalists" is disgusting and in itself, fascist.

"What's their excuse?", Spot On? Why, it's the same as ours. They are fat and comfortable and do not want to be disturbed. If they took Islamization seriously, they might lose their standard of living.

Awake said: pastorius' overt threat to this site to discontinue articles from West ...

Pastorius says: Where's the threat? I'm no threat to Jihad Watch or to Robert Spencer or Atlas Shrugs. That's ridiculous. First, both JW and AS have much larger readerships than the Infidel Bloggers Alliance. Second, while I disagree with Pamela and Diana West, and anyone else who would openly advocate for an alliance of the counter-Jihad and groups like Vlaams Belang, IBA is still fighting the same basic fight that those groups are fighting.

That being said, I think the people who do advocate for alliances with DeWinter and the like will find themselves spoken of, in future history books, in the same way as Martin Heidegger and Carl Jung.

They were great, but they sided with the Nazis in WWII.

Not a very good niche for a person to carve out for themselves.

Will this Diana West article at JW disappear without comment like the last one?

Posted by: Cornelius

I wouldn't think so...Robert posted this article.

"Does the continued posting of Diana West's articles here at Jihad Watch mean that the counter-Jihad is going to be left with just Jawa Report and Infidel Bloggers Alliance as the only blogs which refuse to cave to the Ethnic Nationalists of Europe?"

That is an overt charge and a classic non-sequitor fallacy.

JW prints West:

West supports "ethnic nationalism":

JW supports "ethnic nationalism" by printing West:

You can disagree all you want, but you chose to make a moral summary of Robert and JW based on his printing of West.

Fighting the same basic fight to you is secondary to holding monolithic beliefs and that position undermines the movement in general.

Awake,
You said: That is an overt charge...

I say: It is almost the equivalent of my charging Spencer with guilt.

Having interviewed him no this subject on my radio show, I do not understand why, all of the sudden, he is referring to Diana West in such a complimentary manner. Diana West has made it her point, of late, to support the Vlaams Belang. As such, she is clearly a person who believes the counter-Jihad movement ought to align itself with Ethnic Nationalists.

When I interviewed Spencer, he made it clear that he thought such an alignment was a very bad idea.

There is either a fundamental change in Spencer's thinking, or he doesn't believe that West is advocating such a position.

So, I pose the question: "Does the continued posting of Diana West's articles here at Jihad Watch mean that the counter-Jihad is going to be left with just Jawa Report and Infidel Bloggers Alliance as the only blogs which refuse to cave to the Ethnic Nationalists of Europe?"

By the way, if there is a fundamental change in Spencer's thinking on this subject, I would count that change as a great loss to the counter-Jihad movement.

I don't think IBA is in the same league as Jihad Watch. So, if we are one of only two blogs left (of any size) who consistently report on the Jihad, then I think that's a fucking tragedy.

Don't know if cursing is frowned upon here, but I'll leave the word, because it expresses my feelings, and may also tell you why you don't want to leave this job to the likes of IBA.

;-)

I have said before and will say again, I have grave reservations about the groups organizing the rally. Robert himself blogged about why he could not support the rally.
I cannot speak for him, but I can certainly speak for myself when I say this is not about supporting the organizers but about supporting their right to free speech.

Pastorius: LGF's position on this is wrong. Period. It's time to end this nonsense.

Italy's Northern League, which is going mainstream, and the already mainstream National Alliance, are all right. We should all unite around them, Denmark, Israel and Serbia.

Ruslan Tokhchukov, EnragedSince1999.

Wow, Fjordman, I didn't realize you were Moderator of the Blogsphere now, with power to speak for Jihadwatch, and to condemn other blogs as being in the wrong!

Pastorius. . . I'm sorry, I fear it is down to IBA and Jawa Report now; that's the way things fall sometimes. I'm sure I'll be seeing you around. You take care.

"Having interviewed him no this subject on my radio show, I do not understand why, all of the sudden, he is referring to Diana West in such a complimentary manner."

Posted by: pastorius at September 27, 2008 12:30 PM

All of a sudden, as in, only after her position of late to support "ethinic nationalism", in your estimation?

That's a load of crap. There is no validity to that statement. Google Jjihad Watch and Diana West and then tell me "all of a sudden". You should do a bit more reading here and a bit less judging on morality.

Because Robert agrees with West and publishes her does not imply that he agrees with every position or every utterance of her. Almost nobody shares all positions.

Robert has explicitly stated that race-supremacy groups are not supported by him and that they undermine the overall movement.

The Islamization of Europe is facilitated by the pure intentions and unwitting assistance of useful idiots like yourself.

Lili - you mentioned that many of the unhappy 1500 were "Cologne citizens who just don't want a super-size mosque on their doorstep"

It seems to me that *another* rally should be organised as soon as possible - a rally of perfectly ordinary European citizens who are united by one thing and one thing only, their dislike of the idea of a monstrous mosque in Cologne, a monstrous mosque sneering at Cologne's fantastically beautiful cathedral.

One idea for such a rally: all Christian participants turn up for Mass at the Cathedral first (non-Catholics and non-Christians, whether nonreligious, Jewish, or of other faiths, might choose to be present as an act of solidarity); then everyone walks quietly through the streets of Cologne, en masse, in a 'tour' of re-affirmation and education that invites people to contemplate and celebrate each of the major non-Muslim historic, political, intellectual, cultural, and religious sites of the City. The rally/ march/ gathering could conclude with a picnic in a suitable location.

Work out how to re-affirm and celebrate the legacy of all those ancestors - pagan, Roman, Christian, Jewish, secular - whose efforts, layer upon layer upon layer, have created the City which is Cologne/ Koln. You might translate selected excerpts from Ibn Warraq's 'Defending the West', in which a former Muslim writes, so to speak, a love letter to western civilisation.

In the course of the walking tour of the city, offer to passers-by leaflets that explain the true horribleness of sharia and why it should not be accommodated in any way at all.

Offer people leaflets that set out, side by side, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and the 'Cairo Declaration of Human Rights in Islam', and that explain exactly how the Cairo Declaration, with its abject deference to sharia, both attacks and denies every clause of the Universal Declaration.

duh_swami,
Tancredo's bills will die with the current Congress. Whatever chance there was that they would be brought up died when the market went haywire and the "bailout" is all anyone in Congress cares about. You'll never see them again, unless someone else brings them up and then they won't be Tancredo's bills anymore.

"We" means the ninety percent of districts (covers a lot of the US) that will reelect the same people regardless of their stance. Will your congressman support these bills? You'll never know because there will be no opportunity for him to voice his opinion. What if you ask him and he opposes them? Would you vote for him anyway? If the answer is yes then what does it matter whether or not anyone supports them? Entering them at the END of a session is an empty gesture, nothing more.

Fjordman says; Pastorius: LGF's position on this is wrong. Period. It's time to end this nonsense.

I say: My opinion does not come from LGF. My opinion comes from (read this, and you will see it is not an argument you have seen on LGF) that Ethnic Nationalism is an ideology which says, people of a certain ethnic group which has established itself in a certain territory have right to that territory in perpetuity.

That's a nice idea, but it flies in the face of history.

For the record, I am against black nationalism, hispanic nationalism, native american nationalism, kurdish nationalism, Serbian nationalism, flemish nationalism, etc.

The problem with ethnic nationalism is this;

1) when the indigenous population allows immigration into their land, and

2) the immigrant population proceeds to outbreed, and sometimes out-succeed, the indigenous population,

then

3) the only way the indigenous population can keep itself established as the dominant political power is to enact laws which are fascist in nature, such as restrictions on procreation for the immigrant population, or restrictions on the types and quality of employment opportunities for the immigrant population.

So, Ethnic Nationalism is not the equivalent of fascism, as the LGF crowd says, but instead I would say it leads to the establishment of fascist laws in virtually every case.

Awake,

You said: ecause Robert agrees with West and publishes her does not imply that he agrees with every position or every utterance of her. Almost nobody shares all positions.

I say: Yes, you're right there. I am, perhaps, wrong on this. Here's why I am coming at this subject this way. Of late, Diana West has made it her consistent endeavor to condemn those of us who oppose, and have consistently opposed, Ethnic Nationalism. (By the way, speaking of "judging on morality", that is exactly what Diana West has been ladling out).

And, Diana has been dealing out this condemnation with regard to exactly this subject; the counter-Jihad conference in Europe.

So, when Robert - all of the sudden - begins praising diana West about an article which directly comments on this counter-Jihad conference, I start to worry.

But perhaps I am conflating two different issues.

I need to be fair here. I could be misunderstanding Robert.

Awake said: Robert has explicitly stated that race-supremacy groups are not supported by him and that they undermine the overall movement.

I say: Yes, he has.

Awake also said that I'm an idiot.

I say: Perhaps I am. If I am, I'm too stoopid to know it.

Awake also said that I'm an idiot.

I say: Perhaps I am. If I am, I'm too stoopid to know it.

Posted by: pastorius at September 27, 2008 6:35 PM

Pastorius,

The term "useful idiot" is is one that implies that one's actions unwittingly serve another's cause, namely the Islamists and Islamic apologists. Idiot without the "useful" qualifier is another definition altogether.

I believe that I referred to you as the former, not the latter, so I politely ask that you cease and desist from portraying yourself as a victim here.

I can see the denizens of CAIR qeueing up your comments about Robert being a closet Nazi as we speak, so pardon my intentionally obvious disdain for your blather to date on this thread.

You made the claim initially. One I am reasonably sure you would like to have back right now, but alas, you cannot.

Anyway, let's cut to the chase, shall we?

A question I have for you.

Do you think the protesters in Cologne operated respectfully and solely on the basis of inherent knowledge that the conference was arranged by and populated by people who regard the Islamization of Europe a grave threat, but are simply using that front to enhance their racist "ethnic nationalistic" platform?

More directly, are they simply white supremacists, with a tinge of anti-Muslim or is it the other way around?

That, unlike your obviously rhetorical one at 8:44 am today, is a legitimate and serious question that I am posing to you.

I am looking forward to your response.

duh_swami,

Forgive my somewhat surly posts on Tancredo. It's been a tough week. I think my opinion on his bills is also colored by the fact that I have had no use for the man since he dropped out at crunch time, never giving any of us the same chance he gave Iowa and New Hampshire voters.

I remember a jihadist bomb on a train in Cologne was found before it could go off.

I guess the people of Cologne won't be serious without funerals from one.

They are promoting their own, meanwhile, as it is.

Pastorius, I think you are ignoring the option of assimilation. Enact laws which encourage immigrants to speak the language, promote a national culture that will encourage them to view themselves as citizens of the nation, forbid permanent residency so that immigrants have to either become citizens or go home.

That's all just off the top of my head. It struck me as a hole in your argument.

Posted by: AnneCrockett at September 27, 2008 8:13 PM

There are many holes in pastorius' argument. From where I stand, with a loose comment from any contributor to his two remaining sacrisant blogs, the counter-jihad movement is effectively derailed.

Pastorius is a hindrance, not an ally to the counter-jihad movement. The quicker the readars here at JW are aware of that, the better.

The question still stands, unanswered, as expected.

Awake,
I see that there are seveal posts by pastorius. I only noticed one. I tend to scroll through comments quickly.I was referring to one about ethnic identity groups.

I find the whole discussion infuriating when it degenerates into name calling: "Fascist!" "Dhimmi!" "Fascist!" "Dhimmi!""Fascist!" "Dhimmi!" and so on.

Everyone involved in the rancorous aspects of the discussion could benefit from a healthy dose of saying "I could be wrong but based on what I know I think that..." and assuming that the other side may have other evidence, or may weight the evidence differently, or may after viewing the same evidence reach other conclusions, without being eeeeeeeeeevil. But then, that wouldn't be the blogosphere, would it?

Awake,

You said: I can see the denizens of CAIR qeueing up your comments about Robert being a closet Nazi as we speak, so pardon my intentionally obvious disdain for your blather to date on this thread. You made the claim initially. One I am reasonably sure you would like to have back right now, but alas, you cannot.

I say: Oh, brother.

Why can't I have it back, because you won't let me have it? That's funny.

If Robert didn't mean it the way I interpreted it, then he didn't mean it. But, Diana West has written of late that Filip DeWinter is "not a racist-fascist." She says she knows because she interviewed him.

She only has to explain why he has a photograph of himself with Jean Marie LePen on his bookshelf in the room where he spends time with his children.

Fjordman says he has trouble with LePen and DeWinter.

And yet, you're confident that you are right and I am wrong.

Robert need only explain why, when this recent Diana West piece is a part of a larger group of pieces all written in the past few weeks which support the Conference and its speakers, he would refer to West's writing so glowingly.

It is reasonable to say she has contributed greatly to the anti-Jihad cause ( and other pro-American and pro-Western issues as well), but she defines herself on this issue as not being in league with Spencer's stated opinions.

You asked: Do you think the protesters in Cologne operated respectfully and solely on the basis of inherent knowledge that the conference was arranged by and populated by people who regard the Islamization of Europe a grave threat, but are simply using that front to enhance their racist "ethnic nationalistic" platform? More directly, are they simply white supremacists, with a tinge of anti-Muslim or is it the other way around? That, unlike your obviously rhetorical one at 8:44 am today, is a legitimate and serious question that I am posing to you.

I say: Certainly, from what I have read the Cities Against Islamization protesters behaved better than the Leftists who were attempting to shut down their right to free speech.

There is little doubt of that.

Anne,
I have not called anyone a fascist here. I do believe there is something extremely wrong with Filip DeWinter. His friend, Jean Marie LePen has a long history of making anti-Semitic statements, and yet DeWinter is proud of the friendship.

DeWinter says he supports Israel. The BNP and other Ethnic Nationalists have come out in support of Israel as well.

I believe this is because many of their kind believe that Judaism is a race, instead of an ideology. Hitler also thought Judaism was a race. That's why he went after any person who had a grandparent who was Jewish.

It is my opinion that Ethnic Natioalist parties are supporting Israel because they see Israel as a model EN state, and therefore its existence is a justification for their continued progress.

Instead of having called anyone here a fascist, what I have said is that Ethnic Nationalism almost inevitably devolves into a system which requires fascist laws in order to sustain itself.

It's the same kind of observation Chesterton made about Communism. Chesterton looked at the philosophy of Communism and observed that it would inevitably require force to perpetuate itself. Because of that fact, he predicted rightly that Communism would become a murderous political system.

He was right.

One only has to look at the already established history of Ethnic Nationalism to see that it does devolve into the use of force when its leadership is threatened economically or demographically.

For an interesting parallel, and I mean parallel, see the film clip of Upper West-side Manhattan leftists chiding a McCain-Palin parade on 9/21/08:

http://peoplescube.com/radio/lt.php?id=ek8HWlRRAwkFHQENV0wMAVVX

Here the thugs were identified as leftist Ph.D.s with 3rd finger salutes. On the plus side, no one was reported hurt (at least by peoplescube). In fact I do not think either this or the Cologne mob scenes got into our liberal press on the West Coast.

Posted by: pastorius at September 27, 2008 11:13 PM

Pastorius,

You are a sad excuse for a human being in my estimation.

As expected, no answer to my direct question, yet you and your sycophants essentially accuse Robert Spencer of being a closeted Nazi, without a shred of proof independent of Spencer posting Diana West, which he has done so for several years, not just recently!

Nice try.

Apologies (by you) are certainly in order and openly accepted.

Posted by: pastorius at September 27, 2008 11:13 PM

Pastorius,

You are a sad excuse for a human being in my estimation.

As expected, no answer to my direct question, yet you and your sycophants essentially accuse Robert Spencer of being a closeted Nazi, without a shred of proof independent of Spencer posting Diana West, which he has done so for several years, not just recently!

Nice try.

Apologies (by you) are certainly in order and openly accepted.

Like I said, still up and waiting, for a response.

Islam is Naziism.

Anyone who can read can determine that (Qur'an). Infidels - DEFEND YOURSELVES!

In my view, Pastorius has voiced some concerns which should be well considered by all counter-jihadists. He is not "on the other side."

As I've stated before (not on this thread), when I first started blogging as a counter-jihadist, I was accused of being a racist and a fascist. I was never speaking of race and ever speaking of ideology.

The rift in the counter-jihad is serious, this rift over the necessity or not of allying with ethnic nationalists. Furthermore, the animosity amongst certain of us is disheartening. That is one reason why I've been avoiding posting on counter-jihad matters much lately.

Now, Europe will do as Europe does. I fully understand that. I also understand the any-port-in-a-storm idea, particularly in Eurabia. The situation has neared critical mass over there, particulary in that the major political parties refuse to acknowledge the fact that Islam is a geopolitical ideology which is incompatible with the Western ideals of freedom and, indeed, Western law.

My hope and prayer is that we won't go down the road of David Duke when the situation reaches critical mass here in the United States. Lately, because of the rift in the counter-jihad, I'm beginning to despair that (1) we will go down the same kind of road and (2) the entire counter-jihad will be tarred with the same brush.

I'm really in no mood to debate this issue again and again and again. I posted on this last year and said my piece then. The storm has not blown over and maybe never will. That's downright disheartening!

Today is Sunday, and I'm going to get some r&r before beginning my work week. That doesn't mean I won't come back to this thread. I'll bookmark it and return when I can -- to be insulted, argued with, agreed with, or whatever.

Awake,
You said: no answer to my direct question

I say: I didn't understand your question, apparently. Because I tried to answer it.

Could you rephrase it? I'll try again?

Here's your question: Do you think the protesters in Cologne operated respectfully and solely on the basis of inherent knowledge that the conference was arranged by and populated by people who regard the Islamization of Europe a grave threat, but are simply using that front to enhance their racist "ethnic nationalistic" platform?

It seem to me there are several questions in there. Please break them down.

I answered the question about whether the protesters behaved respectfully. I said, it seemed to me from what I read they did, and that they certainly behaved themselves better than the leftists.

So, what is the rest of your question? Are you asking me if they did so with the intent of fighting only against Islamization? And not because they were fighting for Ethnic Nationalism? Is that your question?

Is there more to the question?

If you are going to ask a compound question, please number the component parts.

Let me repeat what I said last week.

I am agnostic on Philip DeWinter. If he came to greater power he might do great things, or he might cause bloody civil strife with his plan of Flanders secession and deportation of immigrants who will not assimilate. If I lived in Belgium I would have the ability to judge better. As it is I am willing to wait for more evidence.

Having said that, I find it absolutely absurd that this issue is so rancorous. I am not Belgian, nor is Robert, nor Diana West, nor Charles Johnson. All are trying to assess the situation from afar, using a variety of sources, including, in Diana West's case, original interviews. None of the main players who support DeWinter have said, "Well, he is a fascist, but I don't care." Those who support him say he is NOT a fascist. Disagreeing over whether someone is a fascist does not make you a supporter of fascism.

I simplified the question earlier on this thread and in the same comment.

"More directly, are they [Cologne conference] simply white supremacists, with a tinge of anti-Muslim or is it the other way around?"

awake (assuming you're a married man):

I simplified the question earlier on this thread and in the same comment.

"More directly, are they [Cologne conference] simply white supremacists, with a tinge of anti-Muslim or is it the other way around?"

Here's a question for you:

"More directly, are you simply a wife-beater, with a tinge of a decent man, or is it the other way around?"

A fair question, right? I mean, I've heard things, you know...

Posted by: DenverRodeo at September 28, 2008 1:40 PM

Are you suggesting that the Cologne conference attendees are not against the anti-Islamization of Europe or that they have not been accused of being "ethnic nationalists" by the likes of Pastorius?

I was simply trying to get Pastorius' answer on what their main objective was, from his perspective, anti-Islam or white race supremacy.

"A fair question, right? I mean, I've heard things, you know..."

There's the fallacy. In reality, you heard nothing. I, on the otherhand, was questioning the explicit position of another commenter.

So, the short answer to your ludricously posed question is neither.

ok awake, i thought you were grilling the pro Cologne people. I guess you were not.

ok awake, i thought you were grilling the pro Cologne people. I guess you were not.

Posted by: DenverRodeo at September 28, 2008 7:55 PM

Fair enough. I am glad we understand each other.

Awake,

You asked: "More directly, are they [Cologne conference] simply white supremacists, with a tinge of anti-Muslim or is it the other way around?"

I say: I am guessing that the majority of the people who are involved in the counter-Jihad movement in Europe are NOT racists.

By the way, you will note I have not accused anyone of being a white supremacist here.

My argument may sound like Charles Johnson's, but it is subtly different. The subtle point I am making is not a small point, but it is a an important distinction.

The point is, Ethnic Nationalism, like Communism, is a system which almost inevitably leads to fascist law and efforts on the part of government.

My problem is not with the anti-Jihadists in Europe. My problem is with the Vlaams Belang, the National Front, the BNP, Filip DeWinter, Jean Marie LePen, and Nick Griffin.

To the extent that the counter-Jihad movement in Europe is influenced by those people and parties, the movement is, in my opinion, flawed.

I am not sure exactly how much sway those people and parties actually have in the European counter-Jihad movement. The Center for Vigilant Freedom (an organization of which I was an early supporter) has been on both sides of the issue. The SIOE is against these parties. And, of course, there are many non-aligned counter-Jihadists in Europe; people who simply see Sharia as evil, and thus stand against it.

I hope I have answered your question completely this time.

I hope I have answered your question completely this time.

Posted by: pastorius at September 29, 2008 12:10 AM

And Diana West and anyone who publishes Diana West, right? You meant to include that as well?