India: 1,000 Muslims shouted, "set the train on fire and kill the Hindus"

Canada: Guilty in first trial under new anti-terror law

http://www.ottawasun.com/News/National/2008/09/25/6875826.html

Thu, September 25, 2008
Hill terror suspect found guilty
'Toronto 18' plotted to attack Canadian targets, behead prime minister

By DON PEAT, Sun Media

TORONTO - The first member of the "Toronto 18" to stand trial has been found guilty of terrorism charges.

Superior Court Justice John Sproat read the verdict this morning in Brampton. Immediately after reading his finding Sproat said the defence has filed an application charging abuse of process that stays the decision until a December hearing.

Sproat said during the reading of his verdict evidence that a terrorist conspiracy existed was “overwhelming.”

The 20-year-old Scarborough man, arrested as a teen, is the first of the so-called "Toronto 18" to stand trial - and the only young offender. Seven, including three other youths, have had their charges stayed. Ten still await trial.

Prosecutors and police say the group plotted to stage terror attacks on numerous Canadian sites, including Parliament Hill where they allegedly planned to behead the prime minister.

The Crown had alleged the accused was indoctrinated by one of the group leaders and did his bidding by shoplifting supplies for the two terrorist training camps he attended in Washago in December 2005 and again outside of Guelph about two weeks before the roundup of the accused in June 2006.

Defence counsel Mitchell Chernovsky had described his client as "naive" and "not street smart" about terrorist activities that were a "jihadi fantasy" of the group's leader.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080808.wconvert08/BNStory/National

How a devout Hindu teen became a stranger to his parents on trial in an alleged terror plot

DAKSHANA BASCARAMURTY

From Friday's Globe and Mail

August 8, 2008 at 4:40 AM EDT

TORONTO — A father's curiosity trumped all else on the day he decided to ransack his 15-year-old son's room. He swept through the young man's desk, shelf and closet in the family's Scarborough apartment, silently praying his suspicions wouldn't be confirmed.

The smoking gun he found that day wasn't a girlie magazine or sandwich bag filled with marijuana, but a copy of the Koran on a CD-ROM.

At the time, the devout Hindu thought he'd been struck with the worst kind of parental disappointment. But five years later, after spending $30 a day driving to and from a courthouse in Brampton to watch his son go through Canada's first terrorism trial, he has endured a worse fate - the experience of losing his son.

Although he has sat just 10 or so metres away in court from the young man, now 20, a religious gulf separates them.
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In recent interviews with Muslim mentors, including an imam the young man clandestinely visited, and with his father, who believes his son was brainwashed, there emerges a picture of a muddled young man caught in an intense tug of war.

On one side, he seeks to please his strict, sometimes harshly disciplinarian father and on the other, to follow his own flawed interpretation of Islam.

His religious guides - at least the ones who aren't his co-accused in the so-called Toronto 18 - agreed he was ignorant of Islam.

"He's a kid who doesn't know very much, if at all, about the religion," said Muhammad Robert Heft, who was approached by the young man at Paradise For Ever, a non-profit centre he runs in Toronto for recent Muslim converts.

Mr. Heft was even more dismissive of the suggestion that the young man could be a terrorist. "I think if you ask the real terrorists in the world, they'd feel insulted, that he was nothing more than a Mickey Mouse kid who was venting some of his frustrations and talking," he said.

At an alleged terrorist training camp in December, 2005, the young man peppered RCMP mole Mubin Shaikh with questions about Islam, but Mr. Shaikh testified later that they "never ... indicated to me any reflective thought."

Raised in the Hindu faith in Scarborough, where ethnic grocery stores stack bags of cassava chips alongside brass statues of Hindu deity Lord Ganesha, the teenager made a transition to Islam that was unexpected and tumultuous.

After emigrating from war-torn Sri Lanka in 1994, the family of deeply devoted Hindus made weekly trips to local Hindu temples, said the young man's father. The first sign his son was drifting away from the faith was when the school principal called, telling him his son had been asking to use the Muslim prayer room in the school.

The father was baffled: Each week his son followed the family to temple, a place teeming with people kneeling before the statues of deities and spreading holy ash across their foreheads. The school principal was surely mistaken, he thought. But then he searched his son's room. When he found a CD-ROM version of the Koran, he warned the then-15-year-old to stay away from his Muslim classmates.

"By force they were taking him," the father said in a mix of Tamil and English, a translator at his side. "At that time itself I would've alerted police and he would've been saved."

But the young man's younger sister - the only family member the father said his son acknowledges in court - sympathizes with him.

"I think he was searching for God. He was confused, I guess," she said. "My parents don't understand. It's his decision ... I just wanted him to be careful."

The young man's father persuaded the principal to seal off the prayer room, thinking that once the meeting place disappeared, so would the conversion process. But that only made his son seek out a new hangout: the Salaheddin Islamic Centre. It was here that an imam at the mosque, Aly Hindy, said the young man got to know many of his co-accused in the Toronto 18, including the alleged ringleader.

Mr. Heft of Paradise For Ever said the young man seemed more attracted to a group he could vent about his father to, rather than one that would train him in the religion. "He was surrounding himself with people who had never read the Koran cover to cover, who don't know Arabic, who don't know very basic minimal things about Islam."

The father's patience was drained after he found Islamic literature stored among textbooks in his son's school locker and watched his religious observance manifest itself in a long, coarse beard.

The quiet young man wandered into Paradise For Ever at 15, seeking refuge at the organization's emergency shelter and claiming he was abused at home, Mr. Heft said.

"He was complaining that his parents were beating him up because he was a Muslim ... that he had to pray in the bathroom." Mr. Heft could not allow him entrance, since visitors must be at least 16 to stay at the shelter.

The young man also visited Mr. Hindy at Salaheddin.

Kneading his forehead in his hands, the young man's father admitted in an interview that he had beat his son, explaining that he believed it was the only form of discipline left.

At 17, the young man dropped out of school and left his parents' apartment for three to four weeks without a word, the father said. Although old enough to stay under Paradise For Ever's roof and take daily lessons on Islam, he instead fled to a Toronto mosque, where his family found him. His father pleaded with him to return home, but he refused.

It was that December that he attended an alleged terrorist training camp near Washago, Ont. During target practice at the camp, the young man unflinchingly fired at pictures of Hindu deities, a bold move to prove to the others he was committed to Islam, Mr. Shaikh, the RCMP informant, said in court. "[What] I told him was, 'Go home. Go to your parents,' " he said.

In January, 2006, the family finally coaxed the young man to return home. In a last-ditch effort to draw his son away from what he saw as a dangerous brand of spirituality, the father brought Hindu priests, Christian pastors and other religious leaders to the apartment to counsel his son. The young man dismissed them all: "Everything you're saying is a lie."

The turning point came later that year, in early June.

Two weeks after attending another alleged terrorist training camp, the young man was arrested in the spectacular finale to a long RCMP and CSIS investigation that rounded up 17 other suspects, 11 of whom still face charges.

The young man spent months in custody, and his religious conviction appeared to wane - or so his father thought. After he bailed him out of jail, it seemed as if a fruitful new father-son relationship was being born, the father said.

While shopping around for a house a short while after the young man had returned home, the family stumbled upon one in Markham that seemed worthy of a serious offer. But after noting that it was right beside a mosque, the young man vetoed it.

"He ran back to the car and said, 'I don't want to live there any more,' " the father said.

But according to Mr. Hindy, the young man had only hidden his faith. He secretly visited the Salaheddin mosque every week, peppering the imam with questions. "Sometimes he'd run away fast because he said, 'I don't want my father to find out I went to Friday prayer,' " Mr. Hindy said.

The seeming grace period at home unravelled as the months passed and this summer's trial date neared.

By April of this year, it seemed as if a stranger had moved in. The young man appeared to be stitching together his own rules for living from literal translations of the Koran. After reading about how the Prophet Abraham circumcised himself at the age of eight, the young man wanted to emulate him.

"He said he wanted to circumcise himself. I said, 'Are you crazy?' " Mr. Hindy said. "If I open a book in medicine, I can't do surgery."

He told the young man to consult a doctor about the procedure, which the young man's father said his son was serious about. Eventually, any form of communication with his son became an ordeal.

"He was almost mad-like. ... He would go into the closet and sit down like this," he said, closing his eyes, a blank expression setting in over his face. "I'd say, 'Put on the TV,' and he'd say, 'No, everything's corrupt on TV.' "

His parents had spent $3,000 on brand-name clothing to win their son's favour after his release from custody. One day they came home to find a mountain of shredded fabric and their son beside it, tearing through shirts and pants with a pair of scissors.

After several months at home, the young man was reduced to a gaunt version of his former self, declaring that most of the food was not halal. He even turned away water, his father said.

In that last 1½months in his parents' custody, life was bleak. "He said, 'I want to kill myself, I want to kill myself,' " his father said.

At his son's preliminary hearing on May 6, the young man tried to walk out on his own trial. "I want myself out of this," he said. "...This is not sharia court, that's the problem." He was rearrested and taken to Maplehurst Correctional Complex in Milton where he has since remained.

Disturbed by news reports of what happened that day, Mr. Hindy spent 45 minutes with the young man in jail, urging him to return to court, explaining that Canadian law and Islamic law were not contradictory. While the young man has remained in custody for three months, he has been co-operative in court, acknowledging the judge, but ignoring his father.

His father said that, during clipped phone conversations every two or three weeks, the young man tells his family that he doesn't call more often because he doesn't want to burden them with collect-call fees.

Mr. Hindy said he has become a stand-in parental figure and religious tutor for the young man, guiding him on the phone every two or three days. If the young man is acquitted, he plans to move into an apartment with his sisters, Mr. Hindy said.

Although the young man's father said he understands that his home may not be the right place for his son, he won't give up on him. His plan is to send his son, if acquitted, to England to live with his brother.

"He's an innocent kid," the father said. "He was cheated, he was forced."

From the article:

"The report said “instigating slogans” were also made through loudspeakers from a nearby mosque to attack the Hindus."

Memo to all kafir town councils in kafir lands who are considering whether or not to approve that Muslim request for the building of a mosque, or for an existing mosque to have loudspeakers so as to broadcast the 'call to prayer': just say NO.

Say NO to the building of new mosques; and if a mosque is in existence, due to the folly of a previous administration, then, if you cannot shut the thing down, at least do not permit it to have loudspeakers.

Only this year, Muslim thugs attacking a peaceful Christian theological college in Java were egged on by loudspeaker broadcasts from a nearby mosque.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/022061.php

"Urged on by announcements from a mosque loudspeaker to “drive out the unwanted neighbor,” hundreds of protestors shouting “Allahu-Akbar [God is greater]” and brandishing machetes, sharpened bamboo and acid continued to attack 1,400 {Christian} students and school staff members even as they were evacuated over the weekend (July 26-27)."

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/022333.php

"The assault began around midnight, when students woke to the crash of stones falling on their dormitory roof as a voice over a loudspeaker at a nearby mosque cried "Allah Akbar," or "God is great" in Arabic."

And in Pakistan, from this story,

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/022844.php#comments

another example of the use of mosque loudspeakers to stir up the lynch mob:

"On Wednesday, a so-called "Peace Committee" executed four alleged murderers in Wana, the main town in South Waziristan, a witness said.

"Din Muhammed said members of the committee used mosque loudspeakers to summon a crowd before the four were shot."

I am sure many other examples could be adduced, but these are the ones that spring to mind.

I do not doubt that the moment the local Muslim colonies in Europe, the US, Canada or Australia (or anywhere else) feel numerous enough and/ or strong enough, their mosques will - if local authorities have been silly enough to let them have loudspeakers for the 'call to prayer' - begin broadcasting the call to Jihad, just as they did in India...in India! In secular, kafir-majority India!

Needless to say, the dhimmis in India are having a collective hemorrhage over this finding - contradicting an earlier report that concluded that the train fire was an accident.

Somewhat OT - There have been some posts recently of how those evil Hindus either refuse to rent/sell homes to Mohammedans, or how they avoid Mohammedan populated areas, or expel Mohammedans from their surroundings. Well, here's one with the shoe... keep reading (ladoo, for those wondering, is a milk based candy).

Bitter ladoo for Muslim Ganesh fan

A carpenter had to apologise to his community leaders to be “re-admitted” to his faith from which he was “excommunicated” for participating in an auction for a ladoo during the Ganesh Utsav.
[...]
It didn't go down well with the local members of the community. A meeting was called and Yusuf excommunicated—they used the word kharij. He was told that he was no more a Muslim and should move out of the locality with his family.

If only everybody acted likewise with Iftar dinners

I remember when it happened and never had any doubt that the tragedy at Godhra was instigated by the Muslims. There were rumors that Hindus had "disrespected" a Muslim woman on the train. True or not - and I have my doubts - it doesn't justify mass murder (except of course in the mind of a fanatic).

What followed at Gujarat was nothing short of a pogrom. Hindu police either looked on passively or sometimes participated as Hindu mobs dragged 2000 Muslim men and women from their homes and murdered them. The story wouldn't be complete without acknowledging that some courageous Hindus saved the lives of their Muslim friends and neighbors by giving them refuge during the height of the frenzy.

Muslim extremists murder non-combatants as a matter of course...Godhra is just one of endless list of examples. On that infamous day at Gujarat, infidels sank to their level.

jalandhar

that story from Canada is frightening.

What gets *me* about it is that everything this young convert has done - including the multiple examples of blatant deception - can be accounted for by what we learn here at jihadwatch about the doctrines and practices of traditional Islam.

Oh, and I wouldn't trust Muhammad Robert Heft (another convert, obviously from a Euro-Canadian background) of the "Paradise For Ever" 'non-profit centre... in Toronto for recent Muslim converts', nor Aly Hindy, of the 'Salaheddin Islamic Centre', as far as I could kick them.

I suspect that every word that is coming out of their mouths is intended to protect Islam and deflect possible scrutiny of their activities.

Here is Heft, denying, denying, denying: "He's a kid who doesn't know very much, if at all, about the religion," said Muhammad Robert Heft...Mr. Heft was even more dismissive of the suggestion that the young man could be a terrorist. "I think if you ask the real terrorists in the world, they'd feel insulted, that he was nothing more than a Mickey Mouse kid who was venting some of his frustrations and talking", and again:

"He was surrounding himself with people who had never read the Koran cover to cover, who don't know Arabic, who don't know very basic minimal things about Islam."

Yeah right...and the lad's father found a CD-ROM of the Koran in his room. Seems to me that the boy HAD read the Koran and was trying to obey it...

And now for Mr Al-Hindy, virtuously protesting that (after *this* embarrassing incident - " the young man tried to walk out on his own trial. 'I want myself out of this,' he said. '...This is not sharia court, that's the problem." - he had done *this*:

"Disturbed by news reports of what happened that day, Mr. Hindy spent 45 minutes with the young man in jail, urging him to return to court, explaining that Canadian law and Islamic law were not contradictory."

{In other words: a cover-up job was required. This incident had to be papered over, FAST, lest kafir find out that contempt for kafir law and custom, and a determination to replace it with sharia, is in fact hardwired into classical, mainstream, orthodox Islam. I suspect Mr Hindy's counsel involved a stern reminder that one does whatever is necessary to protect Islam - including, if necessary, when the surrounding kafir are just a little too powerful, a pretended [but only temporary and tactical] acquiescence to kafir law. - dda}

"While the young man has remained in custody for three months, he has been co-operative in court, acknowledging the judge..".

Yup - "we smile at some people, though our hearts hate them" - this young man, whose story already contains some classic instances of al-taqiyya, has merely taken Mr Hindy's advice to heart and adopted a lower profile.

One hopes that the RCMP and other relevant bodies are investigating the premises, persons and finances of the "Paradise For Ever" 'non-profit centre" and the 'Salaheddin Islamic Centre', and the nameless 'Toronto mosque' which is also mentioned in the story, with minute thoroughness, leaving no stone unturned.

Mr 'Muhammad' Heft and Mr Aly Hindy should be getting the third and fourth degree. I do not like this part of the report *at all* - "Mr. Hindy said he has become a stand-in parental figure and religious tutor for the young man, guiding him on the phone every two or three days". ::shudders::

Personally I think that 'Paradise for Ever', the 'Salaheddin Islamic Centre' and the 'Toronto Mosque' ought to be shut down: permanently.

After all, there is a small precedent, right there in the story: the principal of the school this dangerous convert had been attending, closed down the Muslim prayer room. "The young man's [Hindu] father persuaded the principal to seal off the prayer room, thinking that once the meeting place disappeared, so would the conversion process."

Memo to all school principals in kafir lands - DO NOT permit the installation of Muslim 'prayer rooms'! Or, like this school principal in Canada, you may find yourself confronted with a frantic kafir parent begging you to close that Muslim meeting place/ cult induction centre...and, a little later, you may discover that the child of said frantic parent has been arrested for consorting with jihadists.

Now: suppose that there had been no 'Salaheddin Islamic Centre' and oh-so-helpful imam Aly Hindy right there for this psychically marginal lad to run to, (out of the frying pan into the fire) after the school closed the prayer room.

If there had been no Mohammedans in Canada at all, no 'Muslim prayer room' at the school to attract attention, this young Hindu lad might never have begun his journey into the spiritual abyss of Islam. Perhaps he would have joined the Jehovah's Witnesses or the Salvation Army, instead. Still embarrassing and distressing for his family, but definitely preferable from the point of view of public safety.

This took six years to be revealed?

Those muslims are so full of love, mercy, and forgivness.

A time honored tradition continues.

Waiting for the 'backlash'...

The Indian Hindus are much too patient in dealing with islamists. how many more need die before anything is done. can the elites name the islmaist elephant in the room?

1,000 Muslims shouting “set the train on fire and kill the Hindus.”

Anyone who ever rode an Indian train knows the windows are barred (against illegal entry from the outside) and that the victims trapped inside never had a chance. Just another Muslim thing, to kill the 'infidels' in any way they can, just like their 'perfect man' Mohammet did to his captive, by setting his chest on fire, and when he died to rape his wife. Ah, feel the love of 'Islam is peace'. Stupid Cultic nonsense for a primitive people. Shut it down, they're savages.
No more mosques, and NO to Muslim immigration. Enough.

The truth is finally out, after all those conspiracy theories and demonization of Chief Minister Modi. As our motto says, Satyamev Jayte ( truth alone shall triumph ).

>What followed at Gujarat was nothing short of a pogrom. Hindu police either looked on passively or sometimes participated as Hindu mobs dragged 2000 Muslim men and women from their homes and murdered them.

That is a LIE spread by dhimmi media. Police action on the first day was so fierce that 60 Hindus and 40 muslims died to police bullets. The army was called in on the second day. What more could the administration have done?

Also the numbers killed were 750 muslims and 250 Hindus. Does that sound like a 'pogrom'? If muslims didn't participate in the riot how did they inflict 30% casualties with 10% population? It is an absurdity to call it 'genocide' , 'pogrom' etc. It's just a riot, one among hundreds in India.

@Infidel Hindu,

True, many view Modi as a Hero who sttod up against terrorists and fanatics by sending them a strong message.

I was passing through Gujurat by train when the riots took place on my way to Mumbai. I will never forget the scenes I saw and all I could think was that the Muslims want to bring another 1947-partition war with the Hindus once again.

It amazes me that even today many Hindus think that the Muslims did nothing to instigate the Godhra riots, and yet there are "Smack in your face" evidence about what the Muslims have done to India and the Hindus, ie the creation of East and West Pakistan, the terrorism in Kashmir and so forth.

However, I always loved Modi's election slogan that brought him a landslide victory..."Don't forget Godhra".

Cheers,

Ayo Gorkhali

The Role of the Mosque in Society
By Richard Braun and John Marion
Summer 2007

As the influence of Islam grows in Europe and America, the role of the mosque in society should be understood by all non-Muslims. Richard Braun and John Marion summarize the importance of the mosque and its central role in the growth and promotion of Islam.

Much of the information presented in this article is taken from the book,The Mosque Exposed by S. Solomon and E. Alamaqdisi, on which Richard collaborated.

The Mosque Exposed

Written by Sam Solomon, a former Sharia jurist, this slim volume unmasks the mosque as the command and control center of tbe Islamic agenda. Enlightening, concise, and readable ...

Most Americans assume the mosque is simply a place where Muslims go to worship, almost like a “Muslim church,” but this is not really the full story. You see, Islam is predominately a works-based system and unlike Christianity, which is a faith-based system. And how does the average Muslim know how he or she should act? Allah has given them the perfect example in Mohammed. Muslims should imitate him.

The Way of Mohammed
While the Quran is believed by Muslims to be the revelation of Allah’s word, the “perfect example” of Mohammed’s life, teachings and character are recorded in another body of writings called the Hadith. These writings, called the Sunnah, record the way Mohammaed lived and taught, and are used to interpret the Quran and develop Islamic ideology.1

Because Muslims view the mosque through Mohammed’s life, the role of the mosque can only be understood as it was used by Mohammed. It would be a fatal error for us to assume that the mosque functions like a church. We must see the mosque in the context of Mohammed’s life.

Mohammed did indeed go to the mosque to worship. Therefore it is a house of worship. He performed his prayers in the mosque and taught all Muslims that it is an important place to say prayers. Every Friday, Muslims around the world go to their local mosque and face toward the city of Mecca to perform their ritual prayers.

Command and Control
But worship for Mohammed was not limited to religious ritual. Worship is an entire way of life. For Mohammed, worship is about implementing Allah’s law. This is called Shariah law, and it encompasses every area of life. Shariah means “path.” In the desert context from which it comes, it means “a path leading to water.” While for the Christian, the words of Christ are “living water,” for the Muslim, it is this law which is a life-preserving force, and water in the desert.

Since worship is not merely religious ritual, Mohammed acted in his role as the supreme leader of the community and the mosque was his base of operation. Here are some examples of how Mohammed used the mosque to implement his all-encompassing Shariah law:

He made legislative decrees from the mosque. It is the seat of legislative government.

He taught his followers his ideology in the mosque. It is the educational seminary.

He sent and received official delegations at the mosque.

He conducted the affairs of the Islamic state, entertained heads of state, and appointed judges there. It is the seat of executive power.

He issued legal decrees and developed Sharia law there. It is the supreme court.

He issued social decrees. It is the social center of the community.

He proclaimed the superiority of Muslims over non-Muslims, issued death sentences against those who opposed him, and dispatched the executioners to carry out their duties. It is the place and symbol of Islamic rule.

He proclaimed the superiority of men over women at the mosque. It is place of inequality.

It is where he issued marching orders, proclaimed jihad, and recognized his warriors. It is a military base.

In short:
THE MOSQUE IS THE COMMAND AND CONTROL CENTER OF ISLAM.

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The Role of the Mosque in Society
By Richard Braun and John Marion
Summer 2007

As the influence of Islam grows in Europe and America, the role of the mosque in society should be understood by all non-Muslims. Richard Braun and John Marion summarize the importance of the mosque and its central role in the growth and promotion of Islam.

Much of the information presented in this article is taken from the book,The Mosque Exposed by S. Solomon and E. Alamaqdisi, on which Richard collaborated.

The Mosque Exposed

Written by Sam Solomon, a former Sharia jurist, this slim volume unmasks the mosque as the command and control center of tbe Islamic agenda. Enlightening, concise, and readable ...

Click here to order your copy now.

Most Americans assume the mosque is simply a place where Muslims go to worship, almost like a “Muslim church,” but this is not really the full story. You see, Islam is predominately a works-based system and unlike Christianity, which is a faith-based system. And how does the average Muslim know how he or she should act? Allah has given them the perfect example in Mohammed. Muslims should imitate him.

The Way of Mohammed
While the Quran is believed by Muslims to be the revelation of Allah’s word, the “perfect example” of Mohammed’s life, teachings and character are recorded in another body of writings called the Hadith. These writings, called the Sunnah, record the way Mohammaed lived and taught, and are used to interpret the Quran and develop Islamic ideology.1

Because Muslims view the mosque through Mohammed’s life, the role of the mosque can only be understood as it was used by Mohammed. It would be a fatal error for us to assume that the mosque functions like a church. We must see the mosque in the context of Mohammed’s life.

Mohammed did indeed go to the mosque to worship. Therefore it is a house of worship. He performed his prayers in the mosque and taught all Muslims that it is an important place to say prayers. Every Friday, Muslims around the world go to their local mosque and face toward the city of Mecca to perform their ritual prayers.

Command and Control
But worship for Mohammed was not limited to religious ritual. Worship is an entire way of life. For Mohammed, worship is about implementing Allah’s law. This is called Shariah law, and it encompasses every area of life. Shariah means “path.” In the desert context from which it comes, it means “a path leading to water.” While for the Christian, the words of Christ are “living water,” for the Muslim, it is this law which is a life-preserving force, and water in the desert.

Since worship is not merely religious ritual, Mohammed acted in his role as the supreme leader of the community and the mosque was his base of operation. Here are some examples of how Mohammed used the mosque to implement his all-encompassing Shariah law:

He made legislative decrees from the mosque. It is the seat of legislative government.

He taught his followers his ideology in the mosque. It is the educational seminary.

He sent and received official delegations at the mosque.

He conducted the affairs of the Islamic state, entertained heads of state, and appointed judges there. It is the seat of executive power.

He issued legal decrees and developed Sharia law there. It is the supreme court.

He issued social decrees. It is the social center of the community.

He proclaimed the superiority of Muslims over non-Muslims, issued death sentences against those who opposed him, and dispatched the executioners to carry out their duties. It is the place and symbol of Islamic rule.

He proclaimed the superiority of men over women at the mosque. It is place of inequality.

It is where he issued marching orders, proclaimed jihad, and recognized his warriors. It is a military base.

In short:
THE MOSQUE IS THE COMMAND AND CONTROL CENTER OF ISLAM.

http://europenews.dk/en/node/14248

Made a hames of that post above. Apologies.

COTNELIUS: "What followed at Gujarat was nothing short of a pogrom. Hindu police either looked on passively or sometimes participated as Hindu mobs dragged 2000 Muslim men and women from their homes and murdered them."

HINDU INFIDEL: "That is a LIE spread by dhimmi media. Police action on the first day was so fierce that 60 Hindus and 40 muslims died to police bullets. The army was called in on the second day. What more could the administration have done?"

RESPONSE: The following is from a US government report on the tragedy...

"The Gujarat state government and the police were criticized for failing to stop the violence, and in some cases participating in or encouraging it. NGOs report that police were implicated directly in nearly all the attacks against Muslims in Gujarat, and in some cases, NGOs contend, police officials encouraged the mob. The Government dispatched the NHRC to investigate the attacks against Muslims, but the NHRC's findings that the attacks against Muslims "was a comprehensive failure on the part of the state government to control the persistent violation of rights of life, liberty, equality, and dignity of the people of the state," led to widespread criticism in the Hindu community and allegations of government partiality."

HINDU INFIDEL: "Also the numbers killed were 750 muslims and 250 Hindus. Does that sound like a 'pogrom'? If muslims didn't participate in the riot how did they inflict 30% casualties with 10% population?"

RESPONSE: I never claimed that Muslims did not engage in counter-counter violence. Also, I believe Muslims in Gujarat comprise more than 10% of the population. Furthermore, 58 of the 250 Hindus killed were the victims of the original atrocity at Godhra, meaning less than 200 were killed in the rioting. Finally, Human Rights Watch and other group claim there were closer to 2000 Muslim deaths. It's hard to know the exact figure, but 750 or 2000, yes, it does sound like a pogrom.

Muslims have a long and systematic history of atrocity and genocide against others that speaks clearly and cogently of their supremacism and intolerance. We need not re-write history in order to demonize them further.

Cornelius,

Please visit http://gujaratriots.com/
to know the truths about the riots that were obfuscated by dhimmi media outlets everywhere.
Also the 750 figure is from an official report by the Government of India.

OT, but there is a shameless Indian politician Ram Vilas Paswan who employs an Osama-look alike to attract muslim votes. This guy is also a darling of neo-cons in New York.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/995646.cms

"The report said “instigating slogans” were also made through loudspeakers from a nearby mosque to attack the Hindus."

As DDA and others have noted....this senario has occurred on many occassions, it is not an isolated incident instigated by just a few radical Muslims who have hijacked their religion...

I, too, have noticed that far too often when Muslim violence flares up...the Muslims had received their instructions from a mosque...

Mosques are related to Muslim violence...and inside of mosques ..what is taught...mmmmm, BOB, that would be the reading of the Qur'an...

dot---->dot---->dot.....

Infidel Hindu,

The gujaratriots web-link you provided can hardly be described as an objective source.

Muslims have established a track record of screaming "victim" while they were pulverising innocent people...

So the accused party puts together a report that finds himself innocent, and blames the Muslims. What a surprise! I guess the best way to find the truth is to have the accused party determine what that truth is.

http://news.webindia123.com/news/Articles/India/20080925/1062140.html

http://www.theindianstar.com/index.php?uan=7778

Ever since these riots took place I have been baffled by the violence of the Hindus there. For those who don't know the region, Gujarati Hindus were some of the most docile and peace-loving people I know, next to the Tibetans. Their extreme aversion to violence is reflected in their vegetarianism (almost all of them are veggies) and near-complete lack of interest in a career in the armed forces.

By happenstance, I got in contact with Gujarati Hindu who lives in the US but regularly visits his extended family in Ahmedabad. I asked him: Why?? How?? His answer, such as I remember, and for what it is worth, was as follows:

(He said) The Godhra train massacre was actually the last straw. The Hindus had been putting up with the endless demands and Hurt Religious Feelings for years. Slowly, steadily Hindus living in mixed areas found themselves outnumbered and made to feel like aliens, compelling them to move to other areas. They had to put up with overly-amplified calls to prayer from the mosques, and demands to keep their own celebrations low-key, because the devotees in the local mosque could hear the music. Whenever there was a cricket match with Pakistan, the cheering was always when Pakistan scored, and especially boisterous near Hindu homes. And when the annual ritual of slaughtering the goat came, they took extraordinary delight in killing the animal in the approved Muslim fashion, taking care to make it suffer more than necessary, in full public view, forcing the Hindus to shutter up the windows and try to ignore the goat's cries. These and a large number of similar irritants had built up an anger which broke that day.

I don't know how much credibility to attach to this statement, but it one from a man on the spot.

hedgehog:
The Hindus had to put up with Muslim prayer calls that were too loud, and the Hindus were then told to keep their celebrations quiter? Then the Muslims cheered for the wrong cricket team? The the Muslims killed a goat? I didn't realize. I would have slaughtered those damned Muslims myself if I was subjected to that.

Glenn Beck rocks! I watch him every night religiously. He is very provocative, concerned about our nation and I would vote for him if he ever ran for the White House.

You should watch his daily program, 1 hour at 7: pm EST and repeated at 9: pm and 12: am. Remember, these are Eastern Standard time zones.

Glenn Beck is on Head Line News (HLN) sister channel to CNN and it is about three to five channels above or below where you find CNN channel on your TV system. Channel 202 on Dish net.

Guaranteed to fall in love with his program. If you do not fall in love with his program write me on JW addressing American. I read every posting.

Hedgehog:
Did you ask that Gujarati Hindu why they attack Christians as well? What are the Christians doing? Why is the Gujarti government aiding attacks on Christians? Are these attacks justified as well?:

“The Gujarat government ‘systematically’ aided and abetted attacks on Christians in Dangs district, leading to gross violation of the fundamental rights of its citizens, according to the Citizens' Commission. Releasing the commission's report on ‘Persecution of Christians in Gujarat’, its chairman, former Bombay High Court judge, Mr Justice H Suresh, demanded a ban on Hindu Jagran Manch.”
The Statesman (India), April 9, 1999
'GUJARAT GOVT AIDED DANGS ATTACKS'

“THE Gujarat government's bias against minorities is painfully apparent. After conniving in attacks on Christians and destruction of churches without a word of remorse, even for the record, the Chief Minister continues to insist incidents are exaggerated by the media -- the State Minister, Mangubhai Patel, orders a community-based census where questions show a clear bias. The census of Christians concentrates on Dangs, where the majority of attacks took place and asks questions like: how many villages have churches; numerical strength of Christians in each village including male-female ratio, addresses and phone numbers, what material is used to build churches and ownership of land on which they are constructed. Missionaries are given more detailed treatment with the questionnaire wanting to know who are financing them and what "trickery" is used for conversion. If this is not a loaded census then one fails to see what would make it so. In a state where the government stands by and watches Christians targeted and attacked, this is unlikely to inspire confidence in its ability to govern fairly or provide security. If the government wishes to provide Christians security, the better way is to arrest the culprits who attack them and those who are guilty of incitement like Praveen Togadia of the VHP. But no, instead the government asks police to make dossiers on the victims!”
The Statesman
February 17, 1999
GUJARAT MOVE ON MINORITIES IS DANGEROUS

"Hindu fanatics renewed attacks on Christians in the western Indian state of Gujarat on Sunday, as victims urged Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee to stamp out the sectarian violence. The Press Trust of India (PTI) said Hindu zealots attacked churches and Catholic-run schools and set fire to a number of vehicles in the state's violence-hit Dangs district. Churches and missionary schools also came under attack elsewhere in the sensitive region, PTI quoted the police as saying. Attacks against Christians were also reported from the commercial city of Surat, it said."
Agence France Presse -- English
December 27, 1998 16:53 GMT
Hindu zealots renew attacks on India's beleaguered Christians

"A Christian association Thursday said it would send observers to a troubled region in western India fearing a repeat of hate attacks over Christmas.
Joseph De Souza, president of the All India Christian Council, said in a statement two rights activists would be sent to the districts of Dangs and Surat in the state of Gujarat to monitor the situation. He said violence by Hindu zealots in the two districts around Christmas time last year had led more than 24 churches and chapels being damaged or burnt. The announcement came a day after a radical Hindu group started building a temple near a Catholic centre in a Gujarat village amid fears by local Christian leaders of attacks by Hindu fanatics over Christmas."
Agence France Presse -- English
December 23, 1999, Thursday
Church sends observers to troubled region fearing Christmas violence

"Unidentified attackers burned down a church in a remote area in western India where a series of attacks on Christians since Christmas has terrorized the small community.
A spokesman for the United Christian Forum for Human Rights, a lay group of Christians, gave no details of the attack in a village in Gujarat state...In the last two days, Hindu zealots have attacked two Catholic schools, one hospital and three churches. More than 10 people have also been injured by thrown stones.
Associated Press Worldstream
December 27, 1998; Sunday 13:31 Eastern Time
Church razed to the ground, says Christian group

Regarding my last post:

If, after WWII, Israel was set up in India instead of the Middle East, Israel would then be seeking to expand their state within India. In that case Hindus would need to be demonized instead of Muslims. Therefore, you would not hear constant stories about evil Muslims, but evil Hindus. Then there would be constant stories about the evil LTTE suicide bombers, and the stories I quoted above about Hindus attacking Christians would be on the front page of the NY Times, and you would be on a site called "Hindu Watch". We would then supply Israel with bombs to kill Hindus, and we would be occupying India today.
Instead, we hear nothing of the LTTE and of Hindus attacking Christians with government assistance. Instead, when the government assists Hindu groups in massacring Muslims, we listen to the same government that assisted the radical Hindu groups when they say they are innocent, then we blame the Muslims. Cool.

dave742, stop making tu-quoque fallacies. Christians are not being 'attacked' in Gujarat, or anywhere in India. Hindu Christian conflict comes about because of Christian conversion activity and it's associated nexus with naxalites.

I realize it is still cool to attack Hindu religion with being pagan, evil, castiest, bride burning, fascist and what not. But if you could clear your mind, try watching this video ( made by a Christian ) on christian activities in Gujarat.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jmj-_BB6zWY

I find your 'Israel' comment particularly funny, because India is the ONLY country where Jews have never faced discrimination. In fact Jews in India ( as well as Parsees ) are an example of a model minority.

Another thing, Modi is not a 'Hitler' , no matter how much the media and liberals in the west might criticize him. He is a Super Star in his own right, transforming the state into the most industrialized and wealthy in all of India, and having the least corrupt beaurocracy and tough stance on terrorism and minority appeasement. He is a hero all over India and people from all states wish they had a Chief minister like him.

The following video of the CM's speech in Chennai ( in Tamil Nadu, far from Gujarat ) will amply illustrate that ( it's entirely in English ). Note the introduction and his commitment to democracy and good governance, a far cry from the decadent congress which only shouts about minority appeasement and 'secularism'.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vPnKFhIgbg

“Christians are not being 'attacked' in Gujarat, or anywhere in India.” -infidel hundu

Of course not. It’s a big hoax. The hoax is so good the US has even fell for it:

“Taking note of the recent violence against the Christian community in India, the US has asked the Indian government to protect the religious freedom throughout the country.”
The Press Trust of India, September 20, 2008
US asks Indian govt to protect religious freedom

Funny how the US is only concerned about violence against Christians, but cares little when Muslims are massacred.

“Taking strong exception to the government's decision to withdraw Good Friday from its list of holidays, Christian community in western Indian state of Gujarat have threatened to boycott the forthcoming Lok Sabha elections.”
The Press Trust of India
April 7, 2004 Wednesday
Christians protest withdrawing Good Friday holiday by Guj govt

"The virulent anti-minority sentiment of the Sangh Parivar, now directed against the Christian community, shocks and is a matter of concern. And its publicly justifying the attacks is worse. The Government's vacillation over the issue has led to considerable insecurity among Christians, especially after the latest round of attacks in Gujarat, says Rasheeda Bhagat.
THE unseemly, and unholy, attacks on churches and Christians in Gujarat signal a new low in religious intolerance in this country."
Business Line
January 5, 1999
HARDLY A CHRISTIAN ATTITUDE

"THE Indian Prime Minister, Atal Behari Vajpayee, visited the west of the country yesterday in an attempt to curb a wave of atrocities against Christians.
Repeated attacks on Christians in Gujarat, the supposedly teetotal home state of Mahatma Gandhi, appear to have been given unofficial patronage by the state government, which is run by the hardline Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP). The organisation, whose supporters include extremist Hindu nationalists, also heads the coalition federal Government."
The Times
January 11, 1999
DELHI VOWS TO CURB ATTACKS ON CHRISTIANS

"Pamphlets targeting Christians have surfaced in various parts of Gujarat in the run-up to Christmas and fears are being expressed about incidents similar to those of 1998, when several prayer halls in the South Gujarat district of Dangs were attacked by militant organisations."
The Economic Times
December 24, 2003
CHRISTIANS MAY BE TARGETED AGAIN IN GUJARAT
BYLINE: Harit Mehta

----
Cross posted ( originally by Gorkhali in another thread )

No one is condoning violence against Christians and never will. Get real man.

Denying the truth does not bring people together. The beauty about Christians and the West is that if they have done any wrongs in the past against anyone, they eventually apologise mend their ways and try to find some sort of peace with other groups.

However your denial of obvious facts is an outright insult against any Hindus.

The violence that has erupted is an isolated case, unlike the situation of Christains in Pakistan which should be more of your concern.

And in case you have so easily forgotten, Sonia Gandhi head of the congress Party of India is A Catholic Italian woman, while George Fernandez (retd General) was once Defence minister of India, both Christians, with countless other Christians in key government positions, and that too in a Hindu Majority country.....just goes to show you how tolerant and open Hindus are. Unlike your anti Hindu tone of the message.

And for your kind information here is an old article from Nagaland:

Christian-dominated Nagaland demolishes its only Hindu temple

Posted January 2, 2004
http://www.sunnt.com/news/national/national.asp?id=14874

New Delhi, Nov 17 - BJP leaders in Nagaland have expressed unhappiness over alleged demolition of the only Hindu temple in the capital of this pre-dominantly Christian state, located near the new state police headquarters, to be inaugurated by Deputy Prime Minister L K Advani next month.

"The Radha-Krishna temple near the newly-constructed police headquarters in Kohima was demolished early this month on the ground that it was a disturbance to the police," state BJP sources said here. Though police maintain that due permission was taken from the Secretary and priest of the temple society, BJP leaders allege that the temple authorities were "forced" to do so.

"It seems that the temple authorities were forced to sign the agreement to shift the temple," they said. Advani is scheduled to inaugurate the newly-built Police Headquarters on December two, they said. The state BJP leaders have also met the Nagaland Home Minister and expressed displeasure over the move to shift the temple six km away from the state police headquarters.

"If the temple has to be shifted, we urge the government to build it in the heart of the town. It is the only temple there," the sources claimed. The temple was constructed with funds collected from the local population, they claimed. Even after assurances from the Nagaland Home Minister, there were reports that the temple would be constructed six km away from the police headquarters, they claimed.

Also dave742,
Christianity is the predominant religion of Nagaland. The census of 2001 recorded the state's Christian population at 1,790,349 (90.02% of the state's population), making it one of the three Christian-majority states in India, and the only state where Christians form 90% of the population. The state has a very high church attendance rate in both urban and rural areas. The largest of Asia's churches dominate the skylines of Kohima, Dimapur and Mokokchung. Among Christians, Baptists are the predominant group constituting more than 75% of the state's population.

Nagaland is known as "The most populated Baptist state in the world". The state's population is 1.988 million, out of which 90.02% are Christians. 75% of the state's population profess the Baptist faith, thus making it more Baptist than Mississippi (in the southern United States), where 52% of its population is Baptist.[citation needed]

Catholics, Revivalists, and Pentecostals are the other Christian denomination numbers. Catholics are found in significant numbers in parts of Wokha district as also in the urban areas of Kohima and Dimapur.

Hinduism and Islam are minority religions in state, at 7.7% and 1.8% of the population respectively. A small minority, less than 0.3%, still practise the traditional religions and are mainly concentrated in Peren and the Eastern districts.

So much for your so-called facts.

In case you claim that the source I used for the news article could be biased, here is another example, but this time from the BBC to further show how you are misrepresenting Hindus.

Christian Nagas burn buildings in Hindu-majority Manipur

Posted January 5, 2006
Last Updated: Sunday, 10 July, 2005, 15:39 GMT 16:39 UK
BBC

Naga protesters in India's Manipur state have torched over 40 government buildings since Saturday, police say.

Violence erupted after rumours police had manhandled some Naga tribespeople in an attempt to break a roadblock.

Nagas are angry at state government opposition to the proposed integration of Naga majority areas in Manipur with neighbouring Nagaland state.

Meanwhile, at least three soldiers have died in an attack on their convoy south-east of the state capital Imphal.

Two other soldiers were injured in the ambush in Thoubal district, which the separatist People's Liberation Army said it carried out.

The group, whose members are Hindus from the majority Meitei community, has been fighting for independence from India since 1976.

Tight security

Manipur police said violent protests by Nagas had taken place in four districts dominated by the tribe in the last two days.

Security is being beefed up in the areas affected, the authorities say.

The Nagas, who are Christians, are outnumbered in Manipur by the Meiteis and want to be part of a greater Nagaland.

They are angry that 18 June has been declared "state integration day" in Manipur.

On that day in 2001 Manipur's legislative assembly was set alight in protest at moves to break up the state and integrate Naga-dominated districts with Nagaland.
---------

Why be Anti-Hindu? Hindus can now hit back, after being on the receiving end of both Islam and Christianity for a very long time.

I also notice this behaviour of hijacking threads and turning them into abusing Hindus, Christians, Jews whatever, I have half a mind this guy is a muslim.

On that infamous day at Gujarat, infidels sank to their level.
Posted by: Cornelius at September 25, 2008 7:13 PM

Also, the US State Department is hardly the best source for what happened in another country outside their preview. They just bought hook, line and sinker the sob stories peddled by Indian dhimmi PCMC lobbyists in the US, and on the basis of that, banned Modi from ever coming here. Wonder how that'll work if he someday gets elected India's Prime Minister?

The Hindus had to put up with Muslim prayer calls that were too loud, and the Hindus were then told to keep their celebrations quiter? Then the Muslims cheered for the wrong cricket team? The the Muslims killed a goat? I didn't realize. I would have slaughtered those damned Muslims myself if I was subjected to that.

Posted by: dave742 at September 26, 2008 10:59 AM


If, after WWII, Israel was set up in India instead of the Middle East, Israel would then be seeking to expand their state within India. In that case Hindus would need to be demonized instead of Muslims. Therefore, you would not hear constant stories about evil Muslims, but evil Hindus.

Posted by: dave742 at September 26, 2008 11:25 AM

If your first comment didn't betray that you were a Mohammedan, your second one definitely did. And somehow, Indian dhimmis cannot believe the Nanavati report, but VHP supporters are expected to belive the Banerjee report? Have these clowns ever heard of the concept of cognitive dissonance?

You might have missed that in Islamic countries, you cannot have church bells, or infidel temples as prominent as mosques, or any other signs that symbolize the equality of Islam with other religions, or worse, you actually approve of it. By contrast, Infidels, whether Hindus in Delhi, Brits in London, Swiss in Bern, Italians in Verona, all are expected to put up with a very loud azaan at 4:00AM so that Mohammedans can be called to prayer. No considerations about the fact that Infidel sleep is getting disturbed, and that there are other modern conveniences, such as cell phone reminders, phone reminders and heck, even the old fashioned alarm clocks that even Mohammedans should be able to program and use. You can't pull a fast one over us - everybody knows that the purpose of the azaan is to create an environment that seems to be Islamic, even if Mohammedans are heavily outnumbered in the locality in question, not to mention making living unpleasant for local Infidels.

Cheering for the Pakistani team may seem on the surface a minor issue. However, at the bottom of this is the fact that these are Indian citizens whose religion seems to dictate that they prefer their own country's Mohammedan opponents over their own country in sporting events. Given that the country in question is a sworn enemy of their country, it exposes the fact that they would be disloyal to India in the event of another conflict with Pakistan (after all, if they cheer for Pakistan against India, why would any sane person expect them to lay down their lives for India while fighting Pakistan?). So why should Indians - Gujrati or others - see them as compatriots rather than as enemies who should be fought and yes, killed, whenever they turn violent?

As for killing goats, while Gujratis are vegetarians (as a result of Gandhi's influence, rather than anything dictated by Hinduism), elsewhere in India, there are non-vegetarians in several states that are not Mohammedan. Point is that these slaughters are in your face acts to demonstrate the ostentatiousness of Mohammedans, not just a ritual killing of animals, or making meat available. While it may have been justifiable in the 7th century when no better method may have existed in Arabia, juxtaposing it on 21st century Infidel societies is only going to bring one grief.

As for the last comment, where do I start? How about reviewing how Hindus treated non-Hindus (Buddhists and Jains) before the myriad Islamic invasions in the 11th century? Not only were Buddhists and Jains allowed to freely practice their faith and set up institutions that enhanced their own culture, and that of the kingdoms that contained them, but within families, people sometimes followed different religions. As Infidel Hindu pointed out above, Jews were never persecuted in India, unlike about everywhere else in the world at some time or another, except the US.

So let's hypothetically state that the Jews were originally from some place in India surrounded by Hindus, rather than in the Levant, and also assume, that India had never been invaded by Mohammedans. In that case, while they would have suffered whenever other foreigners invaded India (Greeks, Persians, Mongols, etc), they would have prospered either alongside their Hindu neighbors in Hindu kingdoms, or have established a few Jewish kingdoms of their own here and there, but even these would have had Hindus, Buddhists, Jains and Sikhs prospering. Neither Hindu nor Jewish or Buddhist or Sikh rulers would have discriminated against people on the basis of their religion. So let's say that somehow, a number of Jews found their way to Europe, and the holocaust of Jews in Europe happened, Jews would have found a home in India (just as Hindus, or Sikhs, or Jains would have, had there been a similar holocaust against them elsewhere in the world). And given the tolerance of both communities, it's unlikely that they would have wanted a state carved out of India in the first place, but even if that happened, Hindus would have accepted that, and Jews would have restricted themselves to this new 'Israel', and not wanted to subjugate Hindu India under Jewish law.

Therefore, your flawed analogy falls flat, given that neither Hinduism nor Judaism has any concept of Shariah under which there are one set of rights for believers, and another (lesser) set of rights for dis-believers. Had Jews never been persecuted by either Christians nor Mohammedans, there may never have been a demand for Israel, assuming that Jewish holy places were preserved by the local authorities - be they Arab, Turk, British, whoever, and the rights of Jewish pilgrims was protected. In fact, that's one of the main reasons the Crusades were fought - because of the periodic slaughter of Christian pilgrims to the Holy Land. So neither would Israel have been vilifying India in the Western media, nor would India (unlike Arab countries) have sponsored terror attacks on Israel. In fact, I'd bet that a lot of Hindus and Jews reading this post would have wished that your hypothetical actually were reality, so that they wouldn't have had to worry about attacks similar to Pakis, Arabs, Bangladeshis, Iranians, et al.

Infidel Hindu:
Let's start with the subject of the thread. Gujarat is 89% Hindu, 9% Muslim, and a small amount of Christians. Gujarat has violent Hindu groups who attack minorites, including Muslims and Christians, and this is supported by Modi. There was a train accident, and these violent groups used the excuse to carry out a pogrom against Muslims. Modi allowed it. The Indian government determined that the train incident was an accident. The Gujarat state government doesn't like that, and they don't like how they are accused of allowing the massacre to happen, so they write their own report and say they are innocent. It is obvious to any rational person what is going on. The guilty put themselves on trial and found that they are innocent. What a shock. I know you disagree. You say that the Muslims are guilty just like Modi says, and as far as the same groups that attacked Muslims also attacking Christians, you say this was a mistake, or was an "isolated incident," even though the US decided the incidentd were systemic enough to ask the Indian government to do something about it.
Whatever.

"Why be Anti-Hindu?"
I am not anti-Hindu. I pointed out what the Hindu groups are doing in Gujarat to the Christian groups to make a point. If a group attacks Muslims, people assume its the Muslims fault. If the same people attack Christians, its not so easy to blame the Christians, because Christians are not iinherently "evil" like Muslims are. So you might have to stop and say "Wow, maybe there are some bad Hindus that are doing bad things to minorities in Gujarat." One might even go further and think "if the Christians don't deserve to be attacked, maybe the Muslims don't either." Although I don't think anyone on this site would go that far.

Then you bring up Christians doing a bad thing in Nagaland. So what. That's my point. There are bad people and extremists everywhere, in all religions. So you have reinforced my point. Thanks.

Infidel pride:
You bring up that there is discrimination in some Muslim countries agains Christians. I am sure this is true, and I oppose whatever discrimination exists, even if it is in a country that is a US ally, and not just in the "evil" countries. The answer to this, IMO, is not for the US to also discriminate. This is the attitude of a child.
You bring up Muslim calls to prayer. So what. I live next to a church and get woken up evey Sunday by church bells. Know what I do? I go back to sleep.

You bring up sporting events and "sworn enemies." I work with many Russians. They wanted Russians to win events in the Olympics. So what. I am not going to kill them over it. I am not worried about what they're going to do if we go to war with Russia. I have better things to think about.

"but even if that happened, Hindus would have accepted that"
BS. Just like if Israel wanted a country in the US, let's say in the state you live in, you would have accepted that, because you are so tolerant, and you would have only asked for three weeks notice to move out. Bullshit.

Christian church bells do not sound off at 4 AM, or 5 or 6 or 7 AM.....nor do they ring every day of the week...

"If, after WWII, Israel was set up in India instead of the Middle East, Israel would then be seeking to expand their state within India..."

Posted by: dave742

wrong Dave...Israel would have been prosperous as it is today and would still be fighting Muslim attackers....Israel in modern history has not been expanionist...even in recent wars with Muslim countries when Israel captured hugh areas of land, including the entire Sinai ...they gave it back....and even in todays time Israel is still giving land in hopes of peace...but the Muslims will have nothing to do with peace ...no matter what Isreal offers...

IF , after WWII BRitain had not submitted to Muslim demands and gave up the land in what is now known as Pakistan , and maintained law and order...maybe the Muslims would not be in India proper now trying to take over all the land....errrr....yes, they would....Muslims want all the land..everywhere..

pulsar182:
"Christian church bells..."

I think the damn Muslims are trying to keep you awake to get you fatigued so they can sneak up on you and chop your head off. Watch your back.

More and more Hindus are now realizing that Gandhi and Nehru cheated them in 1947 by not allowing population exchange."
-- from a posting above

Gandhi was unacceptably wrong about a number of things -- his advice to Jews to mimic Indians in their campaign with the British, and to offer "passive resistance" to Hitler, and if necessary sacrifice themselves, takes the cake, but he was also remarkably ill-informed about the Muslim threat, the deep and permanent threat, to the "wounded civilization" (in Naipaul's phrase -- a civilization "wounded" by the centuries of Muslim rule, its cruelty, its mass murdering). And he certainly gave Muslims the benefit of every doubt.

After Partition, Muslims attacked Hindus, and Hindus fought back. There was an exchange of popoulations, but many tens of millions of Muslims remained in India, while a few million Hindus remained in West Pakistan (now Pakistan) and East Pakistan (now Bangladesh). But because of the constant discrimination against, and persecution of, Hindus (as well as of all other non-Muslims), the percentage of the population of West Pakistan that is now Hindu has dropped from 15% to 1.4%, and from 35% to less than 8%. The much smaller population of Buddhists in Bangladesh has also been persecuted, and of course Christians in both Pakistan and Bangladesh have a terrible time. Meanwhile, in India, the Muslim percentage of the population climbs steadily up, and no Muslims appear to be fleeing India to go to Pakistan or Bangladesh. So there continues to be population movement, but not popoulation exchange. If Hindus (and other non-Muslims) are not to be permanently subject to Muslim terrorism and to Muslim demands, each demand more outrageous than the next, with no sign that Muslims are willing to own up to what is in the Qur'an, the Hadith, and the Sira, and own up to the incompatibility of Islam, and what Islam inculcates, with the beliefs, or the legal and political institutions, of Hindus, or Christians, or Jews, or Buddhists, or anyone at all who is non-Muslim and refuses to yield to the Sharia and to dominacne by Muslims, then eventually, and inevitably, those such as the Hindus, upon whom war has been made, will react and not stop until they have done to Muslims what Muslims have been doing to them, and pushed many of them into Pakistan and Bangladesh, in mirror image of the Hindus formerly pushed out of those places, during the past half-century since Partition. It is doubtful that in the rest of the world there would be much, or any, sympathy for the Muslims dealt with in this matter. Infidels need not inure themselves, need not endure forever what has become or is becoming an intolerable situation because of the ideology of Islam.

Posted by: Hugh at September 26, 2008 3:51 PM

dave742:

Take a look at the christianity in pakistan section on wikipedia, especially Faisalabad riots...and persecution of Christians

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Pakistan

"Muslim preachers urged people to 'take revenge' after a Christian allegedly burnt pages of the Koran."

"Hundreds of Christians fled the town as a crowd thousands strong, wielding axes and sticks, set fire to five churches, a dozen houses, three schools, a dispensary, a convent and two parsonages."

INFIDEL PRIDE: "So what did/do you expect them to do - act like Gandhi and offer the other cheek? Haven't you learnt by now that when one offers Mohammedans the other cheek, it too gets slapped, or worse."

RESPONSE: Hindu outrage at the torching of the trains at Godhra was completely understandable. But the mass murdering of innocent men and women in response is a solution only a fanatic could support.

Adams Apple:
Yes, people do bad things. Compare your reactions to when you read about Hindus burning a Christian church vs when you read about Muslim burning a Christian church. Do you feel differently about the two stories?

dave742 wrote:

"Funny how the US is only concerned about violence against Christians, but cares little when Muslims are massacred."

Is that why the US bombed the Christian Serbs?

Some observations on the very heated discussion so far.

First: dave742 is very obviously a Mohammedan, a follower of Ubul Kassim Ha-Meshugga ('the Madman'), alias 'Mohammed', the so-called 'prophet' of the war-god of the Arabs and putative creator of the Arab Imperial Religion, 'Islam', or 'submission', one of the cruellest cults of war and slavery that has ever burdened this earth.

His mission here, among other things, is - I am convinced of it - to 'split the camp': to create or to exacerbate Hindu resentment and distrust of Christians, to create or to exacerbate Christian resentment and distrust of Hindus.

At a time when the USA (majority-Christian) is growing more and more disillusioned about its dead-end relationship with Muslim Pakistan (Muslim Pakistan, a poisonous stew of fanaticism, Machiavellianism and brutality) and it and other majority-Christian countries such as Australia are drawing closer to Hindu-majority secular India, the Mohammedans will do - must do - everything they possibly can to prevent such a momentous alliance among the kafir.

One of Islam's worst nightmares is for the 800 million Hindus to combine with the 2 billion Christians - as a united front against the Jihad!

The perfect way to stop that happening is for Muslim infiltrators and agents provocateurs in India to stir up as much trouble as possible between Christians and Hindus, so as to antagonise Christian-majority countries against India.

I would not be surprised if, buried within both communities in India in particular, there may not be deep penetration Muslim moles, Muslims posing as Christians to stir up Christians against Hindus and Muslims posing as Hindus to stir up Hindus against Christians. The technique is clearly described in the Hadith, where a man named Nu'eym who had become a Muslim, returned to his home community without telling it he was a Muslim, in order to secretly undermine it and weaken it for Muslim conquest.

What if there are born Muslims posing Christians - or as Hindus - at work in India creating strife? Or people like Nu'eym, converts to Islam from Christianity or Hinduism, who have not divulged their conversion to Islam and are still posing as Hindu or Christian, but are actively at work to sabotage their erstwhile co-religionists?

There is another major possibility: dhimmified populations turning upon one another. The sad reality is that this has happened many times in the past 1400 years.

Might not some Hindus, angry and fearful about the rising Muslim threat that Must Not Be Named, and trying to protect and affirm their identity against it, be displacing and venting their anger upon the Christians (who, generally speaking, present a 'softer' target), rather than tackling the Muslims head on? If one reads Andrew Bostom and Bat Yeor one sees that very often nations and communities under assault from (or oppressed by) Islam wasted their energy fighting among themselves. So the Jewish and Christian dhimmis hated and attacked each other when if they had united they might have thrown off the Muslim yoke. Had Persia and Byzantium recognised their common peril they might have crushed the Mohammedan menace while it was still relatively small.

Let us be wary; or the camp will indeed be split, and both Christians and Hindus in India will be plunged into the bottomless abyss that is dhimmitude, that unendurable condition of humiliation, degradation, and fear.

I would urge Christian and Hindu community and religious leaders in India (and outside of it! - in the UK, in particular) to remember that Mohammed said 'War is deception'; to re-read the Hadith about Nu'eym; and to get someone to translate out of French into Hindi and English a book called "Le Livre des ruses" [i.e. 'The Book of Tricks'] (ed. Rene Khawam), which according to Hugh Fitzgerald is "an Arab [Muslim] strategy-book written 100 years before Machiavelli, who was a child compared to these plotters and schemers".

I will however say to Hindus: it does seem that some Hindus at least, within India, are convinced that it is utterly impossible, unthinkable, for *any* person who has been a Hindu to freely, intelligently, without coercion, without being bribed or tricked, choose a different religion, such as Christianity. And that they *are* attacking Christians, quite violently, and would like to prevent Christians from making *any* kind of presentation of their beliefs.

The oldest Christian community in India, the Mar Thoma Christians of the southwest, is ethnically and linguistically Indian, and therefore must descend from ancestors who were once Hindu, but chose to become Christian in the 1st or 2nd century AD, or later.

I have met many Christian Indians, here in Australia; people from south India, people from the North. They were thoroughly Indian in appearance, language and dress; they were also deeply spiritual Christians. They did not give *me* the impression of having been brainwashed, bribed, fooled or forced into choosing their Christian faith.

Do you, or do you not, believe that an individual has the right to change their religion, and to peacefully practise that faith, and peacefully and rationally explain what they believe, to others?

If there *are* Hindus who want to forbid all Christians in India from practising or explaining their faith AT ALL, or to punish ANYONE who has chosen to become a Christian, with a view to forcing that person to renounce their new faith, then Hindu India would be no different from Muslim Saudi Arabia.

Real Christians are *not* trying to bribe or trick people, when they feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, clothe the naked, welcome the stranger, and visit the sick and those in prison.

They do these things because Yeshua/ Jesus of Nazareth told them that this was the way he expected his followers to behave. They do these things also as an act of what Jews would call tikkun olam, 'repairing the world'.

If, as a result of encountering sincere no-strings-attached Christian charity, a person asks questions, reads the gospel (in his or her mother tongue - Christians unlike Muslims are eager to translate their sacred books), and becomes a Christian, is not that the person's free choice? - another person will receive the same charity and remain in their original faith. The Christian will offer the food and medicine, or dig the well, regardless: as an act of love, in imitation of Yeshua.

(Muslims are explicitly taught NEVER give charity to kafir EXCEPT in the hope of bribing the recipient to become a Muslim.

Please, do not assume that Christians are like Muslims! - that we only love and help our co-religionists, or that we only ever give charity in order to 'bribe' people!! If you think this, you are wrong, wrong, wrong. Any 'Christians' who did try to bribe people, were NOT behaving in a christian way!!).

I recommend that any non-Christian Indian who thinks that Judaism and Christianity are no different from Islam, should obtain, and read, Dr Mark Durie's little book, 'Revelation?'.

Dr Durie, who lived and worked among the Muslim Acehnese, has a good understanding of what Islam is about. His book sets out very clearly, in a nice easy to read way, the total contrast – indeed, the head-on collision - between what the Bible says about God and man, and what Islam says.

Another useful book is Mr Robert Spencer's 'Religion of Peace? Why Christianity Is, and Islam Isn’t’ (it is NOT an apologetic for Christianity; it merely analyses the real, irreconcilable differences between the two belief systems, in terms of what they teach and the behaviour they encourage).

Tom Cahill’s ‘How the Irish saved [latin Christian] Civilisation’ shows that Christianity in Ireland did not destroy Irish language, arts, or sovereignty; it came into Ireland by peaceful, unarmed preachers, not by imperial invaders; it transfigured, but did not annihilate, Irish identity and culture; so the idea that Christianity is always and everywhere a violent alienating conquering force exactly like Islam, and that no sane intelligent person anywhere in the world would ever adopt Christianity unless they were threatened, tricked, or bribed, is false.

This interview with V S Naipaul, on the ABC (Australia) Religion Report, aired on 9 September 2001,

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/spiritofthings/stories/2001/361036.htm

is also very interesting.

To get a bit of a handle on Judaism, read Tom Cahill, ‘The Gifts of the Jews’ or Abraham Heschel, ‘God in Search of Man’.

And yes, India has been good for Jews and Jews have returned the favour: as witness the career of General Jack Frederick Ralph Jacob, the scion of an old Jewish family from Calcutta, who helped India defeat Pakistan in 1971, and wrote a book called ‘Surrender at Dacca’.

Hmmmmmmm, lets see, Muslims have virtually eliminated Christians from:
Albania Malaysia -- Qatar -- Sudan --
Gaza -- Indonesia -- Iran -- Iraq -- Jordan -- Morocco -- Pakistan -- Palestine -- Syria -- Tajikistan -- Turkey --
United Arab Emirates --
Afghanistan -- Saudi Arabia -- Somalia --
Yemen --

on the other hand, Christians have eliminated Muslisms from..??????

Dave, Can you help out?>....

pulsar:
"Muslims have virtually eliminated Christians from...Iran"

Iran has at least one to two hundred thousand Christians:

iht.com/articles/ap/2008/01/01/africa/ME-GEN-Iran-New-Year.php

armeniandiaspora.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-53387.html

They better step up that genocide rate. They're slacking. And look what happens when Christians travel to Iran carrying giant crosses:

"The entire time we were [in Iran], we did not receive one negative word or reaction. All we heard was, 'You are welcome in Iran, and your cross is welcome here.' We were overwhelmed at the wonderful love, kindness, and hospitality shown to us."
kw.org/report_iran.htm

See also:
blessitt.com/?q=iran.html

They probably chopped their heads off right after they wrote that.

"Orthodox Christians in Iran celebrated Easter with a religious procession, ringing of bells..."
TASS
April 11, 2004 Sunday
Orthodox Christians in Iran, Tunisia celebrate Easter
BYLINE: By Ravil Musin

Ringing bells!! "Everybody knows that the purpose of the [ringing bells] is to create an environment that seems to be [Christian]!! Iran needs to start getting more evil if they want to keep their position in the axis!

"dave742 is very obviously a Mohammedan"

What is wrong with you people? Why would it matter if I was?
I am not a Muslim. I am just intelligent. That's probably why its confusing to you. On this post I discuss how my wife and I spouse swap and love it:

townhall.com/Columnists/MikeSAdams/2008/08/25/real_men_dont_do_pornography?page=full&comments=true

I'm assuming that's not a big Muslim activity. But maybe it's a clever cover...
Boo!

Real Christians are *not* trying to bribe or trick people, when they feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, clothe the naked, welcome the stranger, and visit the sick and those in prison.

While in principle I agree with that, I've heard stories about how, when Christian missions wanted to get involved with relief operations, they asked that the recipients convert to Christianity. The organization that was contemplating taking their assistance on that declined, and turned them down.

Also, I don't doubt that you've met some very good Indian Christians, but fact remains that in India, Christians are very different from the more open minded Christians in the West, particularly in their attitudes towards Hindus. I went to a Christian missionary school in the 80s, and did have some teachers who mocked Hindu rituals and festivals, while seemingly 'recognizing' Islamic practices as more compatible with Christianity, what with the 'Abrahamic faith', and looking at Islamized versions of names in the bible as 'evidence' that Islam is more compatible with Christianity than Hinduism, as a result of being a 'monotheistic' faith. This view is shared by a lot of Christians, who either have an identity crisis due to the fact that Hindu culture pervades and indeed defines a lot of what is India, or Anglo-Indians, who seem to feel highly out of place in what is, at street level, a non English speaking country.

Of course, none of this justifies, or is meant to justify, Hindu vigilantes responding violently against Christians. I agree with you - Hindus who wish to switch to other religions (except Islam) should be free to. I for one am appalled at Hindu groups shifting their focus from Jihadis, who've by now bombed several cities and have made Delhi look like an internal fortress, where one has to be frisked everytime one goes to the mall. And on the 'Hindu' side of this (I use quotes because some of the Hindus I'm about to describe are also PCMC dhimmi Hindus who have less problems with Mohammedans), I've seen ridiculous complains, such as Mother Teresa's organization not allowing non Christians to serve in their volunteer force, or that motels in the West keeping Bible's handy in rooms is meant to convert their clientèle to Christianity.

I do wish that Hindus and Christians didn't have the friction that they do. However, to place all that at the doorstep of admittedly some Hindus, while imagining that all Christians in this episode are lily white, is a very misleading reading of the situation.

>>Real Christians are *not* trying to bribe or trick people, when they feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, clothe the naked, welcome the stranger, and visit the sick and those in prison.

Maybe your definition of a 'real' Christian.
In practise most missionaries ( especially evangelical and baptist ), use deceit and bribery, as well as regularly scorning Hindu Gods as 'infidel' and pagan and devil worship. Hindu 'activism' is a response to this. Look up New Life foundation and Satyadarshini book for example, the provocation was so dire that even the catholic church joined hands with VHP in condemning new life foundation ( and there were no churches attacked but new life prayer halls ).

There are very few 'no-strings' Christian charities. They always have the precondition that you convert. On the other hand there are a large no of Hindu seva organizations which don't discriminate ( supposedly 'fascist' RSS for example ).

On a personal note I know a person who converted to xtianity to get into a prestigious medical institution.

Pls understand that Hindus are opposed to conversion because Hinduism is what keeps the country together. It is no secret that the 3 xtian states in India all have violent secessionist movements, along with xtian-naxalite combine in the red corridor. Christian India would be a disaster with each state fighting each other ( like Africa today )

>>They were thoroughly Indian in appearance, language and dress; they were also deeply spiritual Christians. They did not give *me* the impression of having been brainwashed, bribed, fooled or forced into choosing their Christian faith.

They were probably converted long before, during British rule, or are Syrian xtians, living in India for 2000 yrs. The church today exclusively focuses on poor rural areas and converting them using bribes and tricks, the kind of people you will NOT find abroad. Xtianity has stopped targeting rich upper classes because it get virtually no converts from there.

>>so the idea that Christianity is always and everywhere a violent alienating conquering force exactly like Islam, and that no sane intelligent person anywhere in the world would ever adopt Christianity unless they were threatened, tricked, or bribed, is false.

I dunno where you got this one from.
I have many Estonian friends who now view Christianity as a foreign imperial religion forced upon them by a huge German army, and want to return to the worship of their own god Taara/atheism.

In fact all over Europe people are waking up to the fact that their pagan ancestors might not have been all that evil as the church makes them out. Church is weak in Europe. America is a little different because it has no strong historical roots.

Early xtianity was little more than a tool of Roman imperialism. After that it became the tool of conquest and genocide of huge native populations of North and South America during the Spanish/Portuguese inquizitions. Africa is nearly fully converted to Islam/Christianity and what has it done for Africa? Just numerous civil wars.

That is why ppl take xtianity as a threat. Of course it is not the same as Islam.

How do you make quotes on this site?

>>If there *are* Hindus who want to forbid all Christians in India from practising or explaining their faith AT ALL, or to punish ANYONE who has chosen to become a Christian, with a view to forcing that person to renounce their new faith, then Hindu India would be no different from Muslim Saudi Arabia.

There is no discrimination against Christians , nor there are any laws on conversion to xtianity. If you want to convert to xtianity of your own will, fine ( in practise no one does ).
However there are laws against proleystization, directed against missionaries.

I know what Jesus said and did is very good and all that ( as opposed to Mohammed ) but ultimately, western Christianity boils down to the 'white man's religion', and a tool of US/Western Imperialism.

Interestingly most of the nationalist churches ( eg. orthodox church of Kerala ) are opposed to western Christianity, and support Hindu nationalist organizations.

pulsar:
"Muslims have virtually eliminated Christians from Malaysia...Pakistan"

Pakistan: 3 million Christians

Malaysia: 2 million Christians

"There are around three million Christians among predominantly Muslim Pakistan's population of 150 million."
Agence France Presse -- English
April 8, 2005 Friday 1:52 PM GMT
Protests as Christians killed in northwest Pakistan

http://catholic-news.blogspot.com/2007/12/malaysia-catholic-paper-gets-new-permit.html

Infidel Hinsu:
"There is no discrimination against Christians , nor there are any laws on conversion to xtianity."

"Almost all the Christians here and the overwhelming majority across India hail from the so-called Dalit community, the former "untouchables" relegated to the bottom of the Hindu caste hierarchy. Under India's constitution, Dalits are entitled to affirmative-action benefits, including 15 percent of all federal government jobs and university admissions. That provides the country's most downtrodden with a way to escape their traditional occupations such as emptying village latrines, burying cow carcasses and tanning animal hides.

But there is a catch: Any Dalit caught abandoning Hinduism for Christianity or Islam loses these privileges, and can be fired from jobs gained under the quota...The United Nations Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination earlier this year also formally rebuked India for denying affirmative-action benefits to Dalit converts to Christianity and Islam, and recommended that the prohibition be removed."

http://indianchristians.in/news/content/view/1604/47/

Infidel Hinsu:
"There is no discrimination against Christians"

"'This unwritten rule is being followed in Hindu-dominated areas and all the minorities - Muslims, Christians and Sikhs - have to face discrimination,' he said"
economictimes.indiatimes.com/Markets/Real_Estate/Realty_Trends/Housing_in_Ahmedabad_Many_non-Hindus_find_doors_closed/articleshow/3369334.cms

"Christians are not being 'attacked' in Gujarat, or anywhere in India." -Infidel Hindu

"He said 21 Catholic missionaries had been killed in 2007"
gmanews.tv/story/117060/Vatican-official-warns-against-Christiano-phobia

"State officials said 167 people had been arrested after rioters torched nearly 500 houses as well as Christian prayer halls and vehicles in Orissa. Orissa authorities say 10 people have died, but government officials speaking on condition of anonymity have put the toll at 16."
citizen.co.za/index/article.aspx?pDesc=1,1,22&type=top&File=080828163411.2cohuyy7.xml

Infidel Hinsu:
"There is no discrimination against Christians"

"Dalit Christians decry discrimination"
hinduonnet.com/2000/08/17/stories/02170009.htm

How do you make quotes on this site?

To make quotes on this site, like the one I just did, use the BLOCKQUOTE tag. Actually, since very few html tags work on this site, let me list them for your, and other people's convenience.

BLOCKQUOTE - to show

cited posts, be it from previous posters, or excerpts from material you are quoting

Also, to use special non English characters such as © and ®, use html sequences, as described here.

Important thing to note is that the tags above can be nested or combined. E.g. in a cited passage, you can have links, italicized and bolded texts - they don't have to be mutually exclusive of one another.

If you are totally unfamiliar with html, I suggest taking the online tutorial here, so that you can more effectively post on this site

pulsar:
"Muslims have virtually eliminated Christians from Indonesia...Qatar...Albania...UAB...Syria"

Indonesia: 26.5 million Christians
washingtontimes.com/news/2007/apr/22/20070422-115345-2772r/

Qatar: 70,000 Christians
highbeam.com/doc/1P1-114570204.html

Albania:
700,000 Christians (23%)
kosovareport.blogspot.com/2005/06/factsheet-on-albania-afp.html

Syria: 1.8 million Christians
archive.gulfnews.com/articles/06/12/26/10092130.html

UAB: 350,000 Christians
afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5gsOrjps523FV_ffmW9puwNQwLXGQ

"Most Rev. Clive Handford, Anglican Bishop in Cyprus and the Gulf, said: "Christians for many years have felt very welcome in the UAE.""
archive.gulfnews.com/articles/04/06/07/123095.html

Jordan: 190,000 CHristians:
"Jordan's largest opposition group and the political arm of the Muslim Brotherhood Movement has elected the first Christian to its administrative board in Amman, the party's secretary general said on Tuesday...Christians form about 3.5 percent of Jordan's 5.5 million population."
accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-29697621_ITM

Infidel Hindu

While some Christians are problematic, they don't come close to the threat India faces from Mohammedans. Also, in the West, Christianity has undergone such a major reformation that it's barely recognizable from the more fundamentalist version of the faith that existed during, say, the Thirty Year War. Just compare the fact that in the West, non Christians are free to practice their faith, build major temples, et al, without doing much more than obeying, say, city zoning laws. Contrast that with the fact that they don't have the same rights in Islamic countries - not just Saudi Arabia and Qatar - something that's unchanged from the 8th century.

Your other charge - that churches are tools of US imperialism - is ridiculous in the extreme, given how it's been documented here on this site how the US very often acts in favor of Islamic, and against Christian interests where possible - the most glaring example being Serbia. In fact, neither the US State Department nor the CIA acts in US interests any more, so to expect foreign tools to do that is beyond belief, in a manner of speaking.

Like I said, Hindutva groups would do well to focus on the #1 enemy - the Mohammedans. Instead, you have Bajrang Dal activists vandalizing churches, Shiv Sena activists demanding that Hindi speakers from the North in Mumbai speak Marathi, et al. All this when groups like SIMI and Indian Mujahiddin are still at large, and the threat of a bomb going off anywhere is very much alive. Not from Christian fanatics, but Mohammedans.

A sense of priorities would be very much appreciated.

Hindu outrage at the torching of the trains at Godhra was completely understandable. But the mass murdering of innocent men and women in response is a solution only a fanatic could support.
Posted by: Cornelius at September 26, 2008 6:05 PM

• Stand by, and watch while authorities take forever to investigate this, and while Dhimmi parties from other states and the center intervene to prevent the Mohammedans from facing any consequences, under the pretext of 'communal harmony'
• Respond in real time, so that Mohammedans of the state learn a lesson, and rein in their 'more extreme elements'.

Sure, nobody likes innocents being killed. But Gujarat has never seen a riot since, other than the bombings in Ahmedabad some months ago, since the Mohammedans there now know the consequences.

Dave old chap,

In all those countries you listed as having Christians, it is true they are there, it is true the Christian populations used to be much larger..throughout the years the Muslims have had ongoing programs to eliminate them and in fact are very near succeeding....

Albania -- Muslim 70%
Malaysia -- Muslim 60.4%
Qatar -- Muslim 77.5%
Sudan -- Muslim 70%
Bangladesh -- Muslim 83%
Egypt -- Muslim 90%
Gaza -- Muslim 98.7%
Indonesia -- Muslim 86.1%
Iran -- Muslim 98%
Iraq -- Muslim 97%
Jordan -- Muslim 92%
Morocco -- Muslim 98.7%
Pakistan -- Muslim 97%
Palestine -- Muslim 99%
Syria -- Muslim 90%
Tajikistan -- Muslim 90%
Turkey -- Muslim 99.8%
United Arab Emirates -- Muslim 96%
Afghanistan -- Muslim 100%
Saudi Arabia -- Muslim 100%
Somalia -- Muslim 100%
Yemen -- Muslim 99.9%

In most of these countries Christians are being attacked , robbed , raped, kidnapped, tortured, and removed from their properties...on a daily basis...THe Christians are treated with a different set of rules than are the Muslims...They are not treated equally...

DO you deny that?...

back to the intent of my original inquiry...can you give any Christian country where Muslims are treated this way?...

I did not say the Christians were eliminated..I said they were nearly eliminated..and the numbers prove it...The Muslims are eliminating the Christians any way they can...

Do you deny that?

The world is waking up and the future doesn't look pretty...

Are you willing to co-exist on an equal basis with Christians...somehow, I think not...

Christians, for far too long, have tried to co-exist with Muslims and it has not worked...

The Muslims have rejected/violated every peace overture every offered...

Why is that Dave?..

Dave, I notice you don't show much empathy with the Christians or Jews or Hindus..

Why is that Dave?

Dave, I notice you have failed to demonstate how Islam is peaceful.

Why is that Dave?

Dave, I notice you haven't show one example how Islam contributes to a valid effort towards religious plurism?

Why is that Dave?..

Dave, you seem to be supporting the violent side of Islam.

Why is that Dave?..

Are you a Christianophobe?....

The gujaratriots web-link you provided can hardly be described as an objective source. --Cornelius

Woo, I missed this one..

So what do you consider an 'objective' source? BBC?

BBC fakes picture of guj. rioter
http://www.haindavakeralam.com/HKPage.aspx?PageID=7144&SKIN=M

pulsar:
"I did not say the Christians were eliminated..I said they were nearly eliminated.."

You bring up percentage. There are about 6 million Muslims in the US. This is about 2%. Here are the percentage of Christians in the following countries:

Pakistan: 1.8%
Malaysia: 7.2%
Indonesia: 12%
Qatar: 8.3%
Albania: 23%
Syria: 9%
UAE: 8%
Jordan: 3.2%

The US is eliminating Muslims! They are doing a better job than the Muslims are at eliminating Christians.

"Are you willing to co-exist on an equal basis with Christians"
I was brought up Catholic, and many of my family members are still Catholic. Yes, I am willing to coexist with my family. My mother in law is Jewish. She is one of the coolest people I ever met. I am willing to coexist with her. Psycho.

Christians are not being trained from birth to kill non Christians...

Muslims are being trained from birth to kill Non Muslims.

I prefer Christians...