Blogging the Qur’an: Sura 60, “She Who Is Tested”

karen_hughes.jpg
Karen Hughes: She was tested too

The Medinan Sura 60 calls for an examination of the all-important but completely overlooked question of frames of reference: what is said is not always heard the way it is meant. Consider these remarks by President Bush and Karen Hughes, his former Under Secretary of State for Public Diplomacy and Public Affairs, on the Islamic Feast of Eid al-Adha, which commemorates the end of the Hajj and Abraham’s willingness to sacrifice his son.

In December 2006, Bush issued a statement that read in part:

For Muslims in America and around the world, Eid al-Adha is an important occasion to give thanks for their blessings and to remember Abraham’s trust in a loving God. During the four days of this special observance, Muslims honor Abraham’s example of sacrifice and devotion to God by celebrating with friends and family, exchanging gifts and greetings, and engaging in worship through sacrifice and charity.

And the previous January, Hughes said:

Eid is a celebration of commitment and obedience to God and also of God’s mercy and provision for all of us. It is a time of family and community, a time of charity....I want to read to you a message from President Bush: “I send greetings to Muslims around the world as you celebrate Eid al-Adha. When God asked Abraham to sacrifice his son, Abraham placed his faith in God above all else. During Eid al-Adha, Muslims celebrate Abraham’s devotion and give thanks for God’s mercy and many blessings.”

In speaking of Abraham, even when doing so in the context of Eid al-Adha, Bush and Hughes were probably thinking of Genesis 22:15-18, in which Abraham is rewarded for his faith and told he will become a blessing to the nations: “by your descendants shall all the nations of the earth bless themselves, because you have obeyed my voice.”

But the Muslim audiences that Bush and Hughes are addressing don’t read Genesis. They read the Qur’an. Abraham’s willingness to sacrifice his son (who is not named) is recounted in 37:102-109. And in sura 60, Allah says that Abraham is an “excellent example” (uswa hasana, أُسْوَةٌ حَسَنَةٌ, a term applied also to Muhammad in 33:21) for the believers when he tells his pagan family and people that “there has arisen, between us and you, enmity and hatred for ever, unless ye believe in Allah and Him alone” (v. 4). The same verse goes on to say that Abraham is not an excellent example when he tells his father, “I will pray for forgiveness for you.” Hatred is held up as exemplary; forgiveness is explicitly declared to be not exemplary.

Bush and Hughes are thus reinforcing a worldview that takes for granted the legitimacy of everlasting enmity and hatred between Muslims and non-Muslims -- and doing so precisely in the context of trying to build bridges between Muslims and non-Muslims. This demonstrates once again how vitally important it is for them, and for the rest of us, to have a detailed understanding of the theological and cultural frame of reference of jihadists and Muslims in general. But for lack of this, not only are statements issued that could have and should have been much more carefully worded, but policy errors keep multiplying.

According to Islamic tradition, this sura was revealed after Muhammad and the Muslims set out to conquer Mecca, and a Muslim named Hatib bin Abi Balta‘ah notified the Meccans of the impending attack because he had relatives in Mecca. Hatib bin Abi Balta‘ah was a veteran of the Battle of Badr, and so Muhammad declined Umar’s request for permission to behead him, saying, “He attended Badr. What can I tell you, perhaps Allah looked at those who attended Badr and said, ‘O the people of Badr, do what you like, for I have forgiven you.’” But then Muhammad received this sura, which takes Hatib to task for taking as his friends the enemies of Allah (v. 1) and tells him that his relatives will not help him on the Day of Judgment (v. 3). He, and Muslims generally, should emulate Abraham’s hatred of his unbelieving relatives, and not his forgiveness of them (v. 4).

Nevertheless, Allah holds out the possibility that one day the Muslims and the Quraysh will reconcile (v. 7) and tells the Muslims that they are not forbidden to deal kindly and justly with those among the Quraysh who have not fought them (v. 8) – that is, says Ibn Kathir, “those who did not have a role in your expulsion,” the expulsion of the Muslims from Mecca. But they must not turn in friendship to those who did fight against them (v. 9). This passage has been invoked by jihadists today to justify what they describe as a defensive jihad against the United States, which is, in their view, fighting against Muslims.

Then the sura turns to the Treaty of Hudaybiyya, which Muhammad had concluded in 628 on disadvantageous terms with the pagan Meccans. Muhammad had shocked his men by agreeing to provisions that seemed highly disadvantageous to the Muslims: those fleeing the Quraysh and seeking refuge with the Muslims would be returned to the Quraysh, while those fleeing the Muslims and seeking refuge with the Quraysh would not be returned to the Muslims. But according to Ibn Ishaq, when a woman of the Quraysh, Umm Kulthum, joined the Muslims in Medina, and her two brothers came to claim her in accord with the provisions of the treaty, Muhammad refused to return her: Allah had forbidden him to do so with a new revelation saying that Muslim refugees should not be returned to those whom they had fled – a revelation now enshrined in vv. 10-13.

In refusing to send Umm Kulthum back to the Quraysh, Muhammad broke the treaty. Although Muslim apologists have claimed throughout history that the Quraysh broke it first, this incident came before all those by the Quraysh that Muslims point to as treaty violations. A Muslim biographer of Muhammad, Yahiya Emerick, asserts that Muhammad based his case on a bit of legal hair-splitting: the treaty stipulated that the Muslims would return to the Quraysh any man who came to them, not any woman. Even if that is true, Muhammad soon – as Emerick acknowledges – began to accept men from the Quraysh as well, thus definitively breaking the treaty. The breaking of the treaty in this way would reinforce the principle that nothing was good except what was advantageous to Islam, and nothing evil except what hindered Islam. Once the treaty was formally discarded, Islamic jurists enunciated the principle that truces in general could only be concluded on a temporary basis of up to ten years, and that they could only be entered into for the purpose of allowing weakened Muslim forces to gather strength to fight again more effectively.

This principle is tremendously relevant in today’s geopolitical situation, whenever and wherever the State Department or any other non-Muslim political entity indicates a willingness to conclude a treaty with a Muslim group that is clearly committed to traditional Islamic principles – such as Hamas and the Moro Islamic Liberation Front in the Philippines, with whom the Philippine government is anxious to conclude a deal. But as relevant as it is, this principle is universally ignored.

(Here you can find links to all the earlier “Blogging the Qur’an” segments. Here is a good Arabic Qur’an, with English translations available; here are two popular Muslim translations, those of Abdullah Yusuf Ali and Mohammed Marmaduke Pickthall, along with a third by M. H. Shakir. Here is another popular translation, that of Muhammad Asad. And here is an omnibus of ten Qur’an translations.)

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39 Comments

Umm Kulthum is also a famous Egyptian singer, I believe.
Whatever serves Islam is good. Hmmmm. If I rob a gas station and kill the attendant, but then give some of the take to zakat, I've done good.

What I will never understand is this:

Why, when Muslims make no effort to conceal their goals, make no effort to hide basic Islamic principles, are actually proud to explain them to anyone who will listen, do so many not listen?

I've been reading Caroline Glick for the last couple of months and even in Israel there is a denial of the basic Islamic philosophy towards an Israeli state.

I just don't understand how anyone can read anything that Muslims say and not believe they mean it when they say it. Are all politicians just plain dumb?

"The same verse goes on to say that Abraham is not an excellent example when he tells his father, “I will pray for forgiveness for you.” Hatred is held up as exemplary; forgiveness is explicitly declared to be not exemplary."

Who is Abraham's "father?"

Americans can't see how important the position of the president/commander-in-chief is. This position is the "leader of the free world", who can lead the free world into dark peace of submission:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/query.html?col=colpics&qt=Islam

Connect the dots: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oM7flIXdSV8

Bill Clinton did his owen selling-out: http://www.blessedcause.org/proof/Clinton%20Embracing%20Islam%20selling%20out%20children.htm

Now America faces the Islamic mosnter their presidents sold them out to, while, the congressman who tried to warn America, was rejected as a 'one-trick pony'.. well actually 'two-trick pony':
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbC3UfQEj44
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4OaL1FR4vE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZoMEWBSkhI

“there has arisen, between us and you, enmity and hatred for ever, unless ye believe in Allah and Him alone” (from 60:4).

The Islamic policy of al wala wal bara, i.e., love (wala) and hate (bara) for the sake of Allah, is based on verses such as 60:4 and on ahadith that express similar ideas.

Mainstream Islam has an explicit policy of hating disbelief and disbelievers.

I wonder what kind of world we would have if Abraham would have said,'Kill my son? Are you NUTS???

Umm Kulthum was probably good looking so Mohammad wanted to keep her around for harem decoration, and other utilizations.

Bush and Hughes are thus reinforcing a worldview that takes for granted the legitimacy of everlasting enmity and hatred between Muslims and non-Muslims -- and doing so precisely in the context of trying to build bridges between Muslims and non-Muslims.
And thereby endangering the West!

The dhimmitude is sickening.

Beyond that, the dhimmitude emboldens those who are sworn to our destruction.

Thank you, once again, Mr. Spencer. A serious question, along the lines of Jaynie59’s post above: Do the people in our State Department not know this Islamic view of treaties with non-Moslems? Are we really governed by stupid people or do they know this and choose to say something else?

I knew it. Muslims invented lawyers!

Seriously, though.

This Sura and it's commentary highlights a conundrum that has puzzled me since 9-11.

After the twin towers attack, Pres. Bush went to great lengths to show unity between all three major religions and how all are based on common ground - the Pentateuch, etc.

This series, RS, has shown that this is simply not true, and if anything, downright misleading.

Muslims seem to go to great lengths to mis-inform, dis-inform, and co-opt many famous books, passages, and ideas from Judaism and Christianity, then give it their own malignant spin.

A question for you, RS. How did this confusion in the West come to be? This confusion that Islam and other monotheistic religions are somehow 'kissing cousins', when the exact opposite is very apparent?

Thank you again for all your hard work.

This sura is illustrative of many key points regarding Islam, including its cultish nature: members are to cut themselves off from prior friends and even family, with loyalty only to the cult and its leader.

"But then Muhammad received this sura, which takes Hatib to task for taking as his friends the enemies of Allah (v. 1) and tells him that his relatives will not help him on the Day of Judgment (v. 3). He, and Muslims generally, should emulate Abraham’s hatred of his unbelieving relatives, and not his forgiveness of them (v. 4)."

In other words, trust no one other than fellow members of the cult.

Meanwhile, the essay by Ayman al-Zawahiri, "Loyalty and Enmity," in Raymond's "The Al Qaeda Reader" is an excellent example of how the doctrine illustrated here by the story of Abraham is applied by modern jihadis.

duh_swami:

"I wonder what kind of world we would have if Abraham would have said,'Kill my son? Are you NUTS???"

Curiously, one of the fundamental differences in the islamic version of this story (which our world faces incessantly) is the fact that in the islamic story, allah instructs both ibrahim and ishmael (not just ibrahim). ibrahim is instructed to kill ishmael and ishamel is instructed to submit himself to slaughter. The islamic holiday and celebration and fun is that ibrahim was going to kill ishmael and ishmael willingly submitted himself to the slaughter.

This story is indicative of islamic family values!

As we have witnessed in the history of man, the written Word recorded in the main religions is subject to interpretation according to one's personal or a collective need. The most obvious example is the broad use of alcohol even when the Prophets of God (all ten of them) abhorred it.

How in God's name can any written Word not be the subject of fight and misinterpretation? The evolution of the human race has gone up to a point where Words have no more meaning, even in politics, and are used for selfish purposes.

Today, we are becoming more conscious of the Universal quality of the human heart that goes beyond the Word and it's interpretation. We are witnessing a desire to dissolve the barriers of land, kin and race into a brotherhood of men, of collective spirit where each drop of us dissolves into the ocean of One God.

Bush and Hughes can't possibly be so ignorant about the fundamentals of Islam. They are either incredibly illinformed, which only speaks of their laziness in getting the facts, or they are deliberately covering up the truth about Muhammad/Islam as a ruse.

dentalque:

Thank you, once again, Mr. Spencer. A serious question, along the lines of Jaynie59’s post above: Do the people in our State Department not know this Islamic view of treaties with non-Moslems? Are we really governed by stupid people or do they know this and choose to say something else?

I don't know for sure, but I suspect that they simply don't know this -- not because they are stupid, but because they are listening to people like John Esposito and Reza Aslan, who will never tell them the full story about Islamic law regarding treaties, or discount these laws about treaty-making as some archaic remnant that no one takes seriously.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

darcy:

Who is Abraham's "father?"

According to the Qur'an, his father was Azar, a pagan: "Remember when Abraham said to his father Azar: Do you take idols for gods? Lo! I see you and your people are in manifest error" (6:74).

In Judeo-Christian tradition his father's name is Terah (Genesis 11:26).

Cordially
Robert Spencer

locomotivebreath1901:

Good to see you here.

A question for you, RS. How did this confusion in the West come to be? This confusion that Islam and other monotheistic religions are somehow 'kissing cousins', when the exact opposite is very apparent?

Part of it comes from the insistence of Muslims themselves, based on Qur'an 29:46: "And argue not with the People of the Scripture unless it be in (a way) that is better, save with such of them as do wrong; and say: We believe in that which hath been revealed unto us and revealed unto you; our Allah and your Allah is One, and unto Him we surrender."

This idea also gains support from the fact that the Qur'an presents itself as a revelation confirming the Torah and the Gospel, speaks of the Biblical prophets as true prophets, and in sum firmly situates itself as being within Judeo-Christian tradition.

Islamic apologists in the West never acknowledge, of course, Islam's total supersessionism, which leads them to believe that Abraham, Moses, Jesus etc. were all Muslim prophets who taught Islam, with their followers twisting their teachings to create Judaism and Christianity.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

According to the Qur'an, his father was Azar, a pagan: "Remember when Abraham said to his father Azar: Do you take idols for gods? Lo! I see you and your people are in manifest error" (6:74).

In Judeo-Christian tradition his father's name is Terah (Genesis 11:26).

Cordially
Robert Spencer

Posted by: jihadwatch at October 26, 2008 1:04 PM


The Quaranic claim that Terach (a.k.a, Azar - read on) was a pagan idol worshipper was lifted by Mohamed from the Jewish Medrash Rabba, which preceded Islam by centuries:
Abraham's father, Terach was an idol-manufacturer. Once he had to travel, so he left Abraham to manage the shop. People would come in and ask to buy idols. Abraham would say, "How old are you?" The person would say, "Fifty," or "Sixty". Abraham would say, "Isn't it pathetic that a man of sixty wants to bow down to a one-day-old idol?" The man would feel ashamed and leave.

One time a woman came with a basket of bread. She said to Abraham, "Take this and offer it to the gods".

Abraham got up, took a hammer in his hand, broke all the idols to pieces, and then put the hammer in the hand of the biggest idol among them.

When his father came back and saw the broken idols, he was appalled. "Who did this?" he cried. "How can I hide anything from you?" replied Abraham calmly. "A woman came with a basket of bread and told me to offer it to them. I brought it in front of them, and each one said, "I'm going to eat first." Then the biggest one got up, took the hammer and broke all the others to pieces."

"What are you trying to pull on me?" asked Terach, "Do they have minds?"

Said Abraham: "Listen to what your own mouth is saying? They have no power at all! Why worship idols?"

- Midrash Bereishit Rabah, 38:13


For a possible explanation of how Mohamed may have goofed on Terach's name, read WikiPedia. Far from the only historic goof in the Quran.

BTW, the name in the Torah for Abraham's servant is pronounced "Eli'ezer" and not as shown in the WikiPedia entry.

Alert the reason we face what we face is people like you looking to blame one person bush for what your congress and senate and by the way obama who was put into harvard by them have done im not a bush lover dislike him very badly but nothing absolutely nothing changes while they continue to divede sheep like you into political camps as the other party does the same thing.
All the money passing from saudi arabia to your congressional and senate leaders ever wonder why with abramoff they feld one guy and did not mention saudi arabia we know from first responce that many dems where also caught up with abramoff and still people like you excuse the other party while attacking one very simple wake up or stay out of the comeing revolution against the complete bribery of our goverment or when jefferson was caught by the fbi the judges said it was illegal basically the judges said you could murder people and its ok in your senaTE OFFICE.

Darcy wrote:

"The same verse goes on to say that Abraham is not an excellent example when he tells his father, “I will pray for forgiveness for you.” Hatred is held up as exemplary; forgiveness is explicitly declared to be not exemplary."

Who is Abraham's "father?"
................................

Abraham was born in the Chaldean City of Ur, Mesopotamia, to Terah, his father. (Ur was in modernday southeastern Turkey or northern Iraq). Most of the ethnic Jews, during this time in Ur, worshipped idols and were not monotheists. (In some traditions, Terah is even a seller of idols).

According to biblical tradition, Abraham, communing with God, restored monotheism to the Jews. Not everyone accepted monotheism--Abraham's own father clung to idol worship. In this tradition, his son prays for forgiveness for him rather than condemning him. Muslims, in contrast, vehemently condemn polytheism.

Abraham and his wife Sarai, his nephew Lot, and all their monotheistic followers, soon left Ur for Canaan in the Holy Land.

Bush and Hughes can't possibly be so ignorant about the fundamentals of Islam."
-- from a poster above

Yes, they can. And so can many others. The question is: why do those who have exhibited some signs of intelligence allow themselves to continue to be free of the responsibility of learning about Islam. The texts are there. The Western scholars of Islam -- those many English, American, German, Dutch, French, Italian, Russian, Spanish, not to mention Serbian and Bulgarian and Hungarian, scholars of Islam who lived and did research and wrote in the period before 1970, that is before the financial power of Muslim states and peoples to shut down or buy up potential sources of unfavorably study, in universities all over the Western world, came into play -- can easil be obtained. Anyone can start with a useful anthology such as "The Legacy of Jihad," and go on from there, to find out what Islam teaches, and how central is the division, in Islam, between Believers and Infidels, Muslims and non-Muslims, and the inculcated duty to wage Jihad, that "struggle" to remove all obstacles to the spread, and dominance, of Islam, and the view of the universe that posits a state of permanent war between Muslim and non-Muslim.

Not everyone who has been unaware of this is permanently forbidden from learning what he (or she) now needs to know. It is important that the next president appoint, to positions of major power, those who give signs of being able to grasp the nature of Jihad. And if they have not given such signs, if for intellectual or emotional reasons, they appear wedded to the idea either of conducting a war of self-defense by bringing "freedom" to "ordinary moms and dads" in {Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran, the whole wide Muslim world} or, just as bad and possibly worse, think that if we do the bidding of Muslims -- as for example offering up Israel on a platter, which is what any non-existent "solution" that consists of squeezing still more concessions out of the Israelis would necessarily, in the American view, would necessarily entail -- we will somehow change the texts of Islam, change the understanding of those texts that has obtained for 1350 years, change the way those texts are received or, whenever possible, acted upon by Muslims.

It is important that a new set of people be brought in, those utterly devoid of the eager impulse to "solve" this or that unsolvable condition (the Jihad against Israel cannot be "solved," but can only be dealt with, if one believes Israel has a right to exist, by refusing to permit Israel to make any more concessions that, however favored by Israel's left, will merely whet, not sate, Arab and Muslim appetites, and make the world less safe not only for Israel, not only for the Christians in Iraq and Egypt and Lebanon, but less safe for the other Infidel victims of Jihad in Europe and elsewhere, for a triumph over Israel (and pushing it back into indefensible borders--see General Kelly's stated views -- would be a great triumph for Islam), would also whet appetites, and encourage triumphalism, in the world-wide or Greater Jihad.

Bush and Hughes can't possibly be so ignorant about the fundamentals of Islam."
-- from a poster above
l cannot understand why anyone with one bit of common sense could be so ignorant, but then l have family members , very liberal ones at that so stupid, and you have very liberal Jews trying to roll over for muslims for peace. there has to be an answer other than stupidity for this.

Judging by the glum look on Karen Hughes face, one would think that she were attending a funeral. No joy in Islam, eh, Karen?

Alert (or anyone): If Islamization has been sanctioned at the highest levels and is being promoted at our schools, and Christians are being Islamized via "inter-faith dialogue" (or driven away from the Church by helpless disgust with such types as the Archbishop of Canterbury); and if the money we spend on oil is being used to destroy our civilization; and if Europe is fast heading towards being our enemy rather than in any way our ally; and if all our increasing knowledge is not able to be appreciated, used and backed up with force by our governments; and if I only have one son and do not want to sacrifice him in a war with no weapons against an enemy which is almost as strong within his country than outside of it, or maybe even stronger; and if my friends think they are blessed with saintly tolerance if they even listen to me talk about this subject for a few seconds, and will not even look at this website for fear of being tainted with something unnecessarily unpleasant; then what can I, one woman, who loves truth and reason more than friendship or money, do?

"When God asked Abraham to sacrifice his son, Abraham placed his faith in God above all else. During Eid al-Adha, Muslims celebrate Abraham’s devotion and give thanks for God’s mercy and many blessings.”

Muhammad H. Haykal, in his classic biography The Life of Muhammad, wrote:

Who Was the Sacrificial Son?

Historians of this period disagree on the matter of Ibrahim's sacrifice of Isma'il. Did the event take place before the birth of Ishaq or thereafter? Did it take place in Palestine or in the Hijaz? Jewish historians insist that the sacrificial son was Ishaq, not Isma'il. This is not the place to analyze this issue. In his book Qisas al Anbiyd', Shaykh `Abd al Wahhab al Najjar concluded that the sacrificial son was Isma'il. His evidence was drawn from the Qur'an itself where the sacrificial son is described as being Ibrahim's unique son, which could only be Isma'il, and only as long as Ishaq was not yet born ... For with the birth of Ishaq, Ibrahim would have no "unique" son but two, Isma'il and Ishaq. But to accede to this evidence implies that the sacrifice should have taken place in Palestine ... This would equally be true in case the sacrificial son was Ishaq, for the latter remained with his mother Sarah in Palestine and never left for the Hijaz. On the other hand, the report which makes the sacrifice take place on the mountain of Mina near Makkah identifies the sacrificial son as Isma'il. The Qur'an did not mention the name of the sacrificial son, and hence Muslim historians disagree in this regard. (trans. Isma'il Raji al-Faruqi [Islamic Book Trust Kuala Lumpur/American Trust Publishers, 1976]

I wonder if Bush only said "his son" on purpose, instead of saying Issac specifically. Now that would make one ask some more serious questions of Bush if this was his intent.

Alert the reason we face what we face is people like you looking to blame one person bush for what your congress and senate and by the way obama who was put into harvard by them have done im not a bush lover dislike him very badly but nothing absolutely nothing changes while they continue to divede sheep like you into political camps as the other party does the same thing.

Posted by: spcbat at October 26, 2008 4:59 PM

Interesting, that while you are quick to call out 'people like you', 'your congress' etc., you offer no challange to the substance I post. One can only conclude that while you believe in persoanal attacks, you do not believe in a healthy debate. I, for one, refuse to make it a personal attack. You are welcome to debate the issue at question. Else, personal attacks get noone nowhere. I know you will point at my pointing finger at Bush. What you have failed to notice is I have done the same at Clinton. This is what an aware and alert electorate, who has standards and expectations from their elected officials, does.
Besides, I take it that you will take the 'people like you', 'your congress' issue with:
- Wafa Sultan: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52962
- 73 % Americans do not approve of Bush: http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/24/bush.trail/?iref=mpstoryview
I think I have made my point while you have none, other than 'people like you'. As a reader/poster on this blog, you know you can do better.

PG, how refreshing to see someone face up to the challanges Americans face. You are not alone. I do not have answers but within our small capacity, what we can do is to question, discuss, identify friends / enemy, analyze, connect-dots. Knowing how politics is run today based on MONEY and VOTES, see what your representatives are after MONEY and / or VOTES. Remember, they are in civil service to serve the people. They should be campaigning for VOTE within a reasonable limit. MONEY is NOT what they should be pursuing at all. If they are, they need to be called out. Do a cost-benefit analysis. Check out your candidate's voting-record, his/her background, education, qualification, selfless service. Call your representatives, write to them letting them know what you know and what you expect. Check out the representatives at www.congress.org write to them and write often.

I'll stop now and let other's respond. Again, glad you ask a fundamental question to which, hope you find a satisfactory answer.

l cannot understand why anyone with one bit of common sense could be so ignorant, but then l have family members , very liberal ones at that so stupid, and you have very liberal Jews trying to roll over for muslims for peace. there has to be an answer other than stupidity for this.

Posted by: ZenaWarriorPrincess at October 26, 2008 6:20 PM

Bush is the chief of the executive branch, commander-in-chief, POTUS and the leader fo the free world. He has as set of advisors to keep him informed. For the responsibilities that go with the powerful position he holds, ignorance is too dangerous an excuse. Besides, Bush family has been close to the heart of Islam, more than any other family in the West.

Most of the ethnic Jews, during this time in Ur.....

Posted by: gravenimage at October 26, 2008 5:32 PM


There was no such a thing as a "Jew" at Abraham's time, in Ur or anywhere else. While Abraham himself adhered to a certain level of laws which would eventually be given to the Israelites during the Exodus, Abraham's and Sarah's converts went on to become something on the level of Noahides Plus.

It seems to me a peculiar insanity of Muslim, Jewish and Christian religious indoctrination that makes its adherents believe that it was a beautiful and praiseworthy thing for their god to demand and a man to agree to slit his own son's throat on an alter as a show of blind faith and mindless obedience.

This submission of natural fatherly love and instinct to a god’s will (really to the will to power of rabbis, imams and priests who demand “faith” above all) is even celebrated at “holy days” with feasting. Nothing evidently is too stupid and outrageous to the religious mind if it is sanctioned and exalted by the priesthood.

By judging the actions of Mohammed, it is a safe assumption that he was a sociopath. However, what does this say about the apologists for Islam (both believers and infidels) who have, through out the centuries who defended his despicable actions in dealing with both believers and infidels?

It seems to me a peculiar insanity of Muslim, Jewish and Christian religious indoctrination that makes its adherents believe that it was a beautiful and praiseworthy thing for their god to demand and a man to agree to slit his own son's throat on an alter as a show of blind faith and mindless obedience.

Posted by: FM at October 27, 2008 8:48 AM


From Judaism's point of view, read Gently Down the Stream. Note the use of the word "barbaric" therein. I was never taught to associate a word like "beautiful" with this event. Nevertheless, we do view it as "praiseworthy" to be obedient to G-d. But you obviously don't believe in the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob anyway.
This submission of natural fatherly love and instinct to a god’s will (really to the will to power of rabbis, imams and priests who demand “faith” above all) is even celebrated at “holy days” with feasting. Nothing evidently is too stupid and outrageous to the religious mind if it is sanctioned and exalted by the priesthood.

Judaism celebates the testing of Abraham and Isaac and Isaac's coming off the alter and living.

Terms like "faith above all" are vague to us Jews. Either G-d is and does what the Torah says or not. We remember the revelation at Sinai. More than faith, we rely on memory and transmission.

"in the islamic story, allah instructs both ibrahim and ishmael (not just ibrahim). ibrahim is instructed to kill ishmael and ishamel is instructed to submit himself to slaughter."

Remember the Ismail Ax of old Cho of Virginia Tech?

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/who_is_ismail_ax/

"there has to be an answer other than stupidity for this." Posted by: ZenaWarriorPrincess

Especially since it seems that over 50% of all people in the West are "stupid" about Islam (and I'm being generous about that figure!). When the numbers get that high, another explanation is required.

The family tree of Abraham is shown on plate 5 The Living Torah translated and annotated by Aryeh Kaplan 1981. It shows that one of Ishmaels daughters married Esau. For the Jews the message of the story is that life is sacred but it seems from your commentaries that for those who follow the literal Koran, expedient. Such a clear, unbridgable divide! Europe is now realising its errors and ignorance. When will USA policy become informed and proactive?

"Judaism celebates the testing of Abraham ...".

Yes but there are tests and there are tests - this one was an outrage and tested for the wrong thing: obedience to a voice telling one to do an outrage. This test should not be celebrated.

Terms like "faith above all" are vague to us Jews. Either G-d is and does what the Torah says or not. We remember the revelation at Sinai. More than faith, we rely on memory and transmission.

Shy Guy, but you are essentially holding faith above all - it's shear faith that all these transmissions from many memories are accurate. Reminds me of the Muslim's belief that the Koran is accurate through all those allegedly reputable transmissions.

It's one thing to believe in a "G-d" but another to believe there have not been a lot of copy errors, fabrications, misqoutes & deiberate additions over long periods of time in these really old "sacred" books.

FM

Given the demonstrable radical difference in culture between Jews and Mohammedans, the manifestly obvious Jewish ethos of truth, self-critique, personal responsibility and honesty on the one hand, and the equally obvious Mohammedan ethos of lies, distortion, gross exaggeration, abrogation of personal responsibility and total dishonesty on the other hand, I would trust the accuracy and honesty of the composers and transmitters of the Jewish/ Hebrew scriptures far more than I would trust the composers and transmitters of the Mohammedan 'scriptures'.

As for 'copy errors' - neither the Hebrew nor the Christian scriptures as transmitted contain any scribal/ textual errors big enough to matter. There are so many manuscripts from different eras that the manuscript scholars can easily pick up, and correct, any such glitches.

I am sure Shy Guy could fill you in on the textual/ scribal history of the TaNaKh.

In the meantime: on the evidence, for example, of the Isaiah scroll, the Hebrew text in current use is virtually identical with that which would have been known to, and used by, Hebrew readers of Jesus' day and earlier. That is very, very impressive. The people of Israel were downright obsessive about the accurate textual transmission of their material.

The original Greek text of the Christian scriptures, irrespective of what anyone thinks of what it says, is, similarly, one of the best-attested texts (to speak in scholarly terms) that we have from the ancient world. The modern text is, so far as the manuscript scholars can determine, virtually identical with the original first written down in the first century, within living memory of the events. Once written down, that was it. You can speculate all you like about what happened prior to the writing down but you can't seriously claim that the text was altered after being written down.

Oh, and you might like to know that for Christians, the group of texts they viewed as canonical, as authoritative, were pretty much fixed, by broad consensus at the grassroots much more than by top-down fiat, well before the time of the Council of Nicaea. The Coptic version of the NT, for example, dates from the third century, which means that the Greek original from which it was made, has to be earlier.

Dumbledoresarmy,

Books like “Misquoting Jesus” and “101 Myths of the Bible: How Ancient Scribes Invented Biblical History”, even if imperfect, at least indicate the kind of errors & fabrications one can expect over time (and I certainly don’t regard the Koran or Hadiths as models of accurate transmission either).
And we’re talking long periods of time before we even have those old Greek texts you mentioned: Abraham’s (if he even existed) stay in Canaan was, I understand, about 1850 BC and Moses’ Exodus was about 1220 BC. I was just trying to suggest that if one reads something in these very old & many-times copied books that sounds implausible (besides obvious myths like Noah), it may even be partly a copy error, interpretation error or later fabrication.

Besides any of this, I don’t see how anyone can take these old books seriously anyway just on the basis of all the awful & absurd things they have the Creator doing. I would even say that the Torah cannot have come from “g-d” since the single most reprehensible character in it is “g-d”.

FM

please do think about this. Sure, you appear to be convinced that the Jewish and Christian books are just as much a bunch of messed-up, fabricated, miscopied taradiddles as the Muslim books. Your infinite disdain is palpable.

But you still cannot rationally argue that those taradiddles, as they presently stand (and they have stood, in the form of words they have now, for two thousand years in the case of Christianity and some three thousand at least, for the TaNaKh) are *no different * in content or form or purpose, or in the kinds of behaviour they promote, from the Muslim taradiddles.

It's like trying to argue that Jane Austen's novels are 'the same' as those of the Marquis de Sade. It makes no sense to anyone with any commonsense and sense of how literature works, who has read both the Bible and the Islamic texts.

Here is a report, from in Jyllandsposten, Denmark's largest newspaper, on the 10th of September 2005, on the work of a Danish linguist who studied the texts of Islam and compared them with the original texts of nine other world religions.

'Islam er den mest krigeriske religion/ Islam is the most Warlike religion

A Danish language researcher has spent over three years analyzing the original texts of ten different religions, and concludes that the Islamic texts stand out by encouraging terror and violence to a larger degree than other religions do.

'Four years after the terror attacks at the World Trade Center, Danish linguist Tina Magaard presents an analysis that questions Islam’s relationship with terror, violence and Holy War.

'Islamic texts encourage terror and fighting to a far larger degree than the original texts of other religions,' concludes Tina Magaard.

'She has a PhD in Textual Analysis and Intercultural Communication from the Sorbonne in Paris, and has spent three years on a research project comparing the original texts of ten religions.

“The texts in Islam distinguish themselves from the texts of other religions by encouraging violence and aggression against people with other religious beliefs to a larger degree.

"There are also straightforward calls for terror."

'This has long been a taboo in the research into Islam, but it is a fact that we need to deal with," says Tina Magaard.

Moreover, there are hundreds of calls in the Koran for fighting against people of other faiths.

“If it is correct that many Muslims view the Koran as the literal words of God, which cannot be interpreted or rephrased, then we have a problem. It is indisputable that the texts encourage terror and violence. Consequently, it must be reasonable to ask Muslims themselves how they relate to the text, if they read it as it is," says Tina Magaard." END QUOTE.

If Tina Magaard concluded, after comparing the language used by the sacred texts of ten different religions (including Islam), that Islam's texts 'encouraged terror and fighting to *a far greater degree*', then surely that shows that all religions are *not* the same.

I don’t know why you seem to think I have a higher opinion of the Qu’ran than the Old & New Testaments. I agree with the Tina Magaard quotes and I’ve often expressed my opinion that the Qu’ran is not only a pure fabrication by an ambitious narcissistic-psychopathic imposter but also a flim-flim by an obvious narcissistic-psychopathic imposter. He had all his critics assassinated! – can Arabs take a hint? There is very little that is redeeming about the Qu’ran, which tries to instill belief through terrorizing the reader with its highly repetitious descriptions of hell fire for those refusing to believe.

ON the other hand, the absurd jumble of stories, myths and extremely biased & unreliable history that’s the Torah or Old Testament, for instance, gives the impression it is at least written by well intentioned true believers, some often with great poetic abilities. There are instances of stunning beauty amongst the junk. One cannot imagine anything like the book of Job, with it perceptive and sensitive allusions, coming out of Muhammad’s Qu’ran. For example, Job pleads with God:“Wherefore hidest Thou Thy face…Wilt Thou harass a driven leaf?” Wonderful. Like A Driven Leaf is deservingly the title of a famous book. But in the Quran we constantly read of warnings to believe – only submission & Jihad really count - and hell & violent hate is the unbeliever’s due.







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