The great Choi
This story, predictably enough, makes scant mention of CAIR's questionable history: the terror convictions of various former CAIR officials; the Islamic supremacist statements made by some of its leaders; its designation as an "unindicted co-conspirator" in the Holy Land Foundation Hamas jihad terror funding case; and its derivation from the Islamic Association for Palestine (IAP), which is listed as an allied organization in the 1991 Muslim Brotherhood memo detailing a "grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and ‘sabotaging’ its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and Allah’s religion is made victorious over all other religions.”
Bravo for Steven Choi! He is not backing down, and even says, "If anyone has to apologize, it is them for publicly defaming my name." How about it, Ibrahim Hooper? Be a mensch for once. It would make quite a few people have more confidence in your "moderate" bona fides. You could apologize for impugning Mr. Choi's good will and good name, assure the public that you understand why Mr. Choi is concerned about CAIR, given its past history. You could announce, Ibrahim, that you are adopting the ten measures listed here as a manifestation of your good faith and new desire to show Americans that Muslims in this country are anxious to demonstrate that they are loyal citizens, and to jettison any elements of their faith as it has historically been understood and lived out that may interfere with their ability to adopt, sincerely and wholeheartedly, the American principles of non-establishment of religion and democratic pluralism.
Or you could rely on your ability to continue to bamboozle the uninformed and willfully ignorant. And I have a good idea of which one of these options you will choose.
Note also that the ever-charming and effervescent Hussam Ayloush assures us below that CAIR condemns "terrorism." He does not, of course, say anything about what exactly he believes constitutes terrorism, or about the Islamic supremacist imperative to impose Islamic law over non-Muslims.
"Irvine council candidate ties opponent to 'dangerous' Islamic group: Muslim leaders decry Steven Choi's comments as 'insulting and false,'" by Sean Emery for the Orange County Register, October 7 (misdated September 30; thanks to Charles):
IRVINE - An Irvine councilman has questioned his political opponent's work with what he called a "dangerous" Islamic advocacy group with alleged terrorist ties, drawing the ire of many in the local Muslim community who described the comments as divisive and false.The comments by Councilman Steven Choi came at the close of a recent Chamber of Commerce election forum attended by the dozen candidates for Irvine office. Choi cautioned the audience of business and community leaders not to vote for a candidate who works for the Council on American-Islamic Relations – commonly known as CAIR – which he described as a "dangerous and Islamic organization."
Supporters say the high-profile Muslim advocacy group helps spread understanding of Islam and protection of civil liberties. But critics of the group question its funding and political agenda, claiming that it is linked to terrorist groups.
While Choi did not identify the candidate by name, the barb was clearly directed at Todd Gallinger, a lawyer and born-again Muslim who has represented CAIR in several class-action lawsuits. Gallinger is a member of the Keep Irvine Safe political slate with Councilman Sukhee Kang, Mayor Beth Krom and Councilman Larry Agran.
"Obviously it's just slimy political tactics," Gallinger said. "It's an attempt to play on xenophobia and fear."
Choi said his comments were directed specifically at CAIR, not at the Muslim community.
"I just don't want to make a big deal out of it. It went out of proportion," Choi said. "I did not even mention the candidate's name, but I wanted to bring up the fact there is a candidate who works at CAIR. Looking back I should have stopped there."
CAIR leaders have demanded an apology from Choi, describing his comments as "not only insulting and false, but also tantamount to public defamation." In a letter to the councilman, Hussam Ayloush, executive director CAIR's greater Los Angeles area chapter, described the group as the "largest American Muslim advocacy organization," claiming it has "unequivocally condemned all acts of terrorism."
"CAIR is a huge organization with literally thousands of members and volunteers. An organization is not judged by the wrong behavior of a person (that) goes against the policies of the organization," Ayloush said. "We don't practice guilt by association here."
CAIR detractors have risen to Choi's defense, accusing the organization of backing an extreme Islamic political agenda, pointing out that several individuals with ties to the group have been convicted or deported for their connections to terrorist groups.
Assemblyman Chuck DeVore of Irvine in a blog entry last week wrote that while he had "no doubt that the local chapter of CAIR is filled with many caring people and diligent citizens," he also had "no doubt that CAIR has had its share of members who have supported terrorism and have raised money for terror."
Islamic Center of Irvine President Issa Edah-Tally said he is willing to mediate a meeting between Choi and CAIR. The Islamic Center works with CAIR often, Edah-Tally said, which he described as "in no way a dangerous organization."
"I was shocked to hear that a council candidate made those comments," Edah-Tally said. "I can see how this can create waves of division in the community,"
Choi said he does not plan to meet with CAIR, and does not believe an apology is warranted.
"If anyone has to apologize, it is them for publicly defaming my name," Choi said.
Pat Rodgers, Choi's political ally who is also running for council, defended his criticism of CAIR, who he claimed had taken a non-issue and "thrown gasoline on the fire."
"This thing is not about being a Muslim," Rodgers said. "If you align yourself with an organization like that, you need to prepare yourself for a backlash."...
Indeed, you need to prepare yourself for serious questions -- if anyone in the media dares to ask them.
>>Choi said he does not plan to meet with CAIR, and does not believe an apology is warranted.
"If anyone has to apologize, it is them for publicly defaming my name," Choi said.
Bravo. Stick to your guns!
"I was shocked to hear that a council candidate made those comments," Edah-Tally said. "I can see how this can create waves of division in the community"
-- from the article above
Does Issa Edah-Tally think that non-Muslims might be "shocked" to hear about, or read, what is contained in 9.29 and 9.5 of the Qur'an? Does he think they would be "shocked" to find out what is all over Sura 9, and in a hundred other places in the Qur'an, believed by Muslims to be the literal and immutable Word of God?
Does Issa Edah-Tally think that non-Muslims might be "shocked" to find out what is contained in the Hadith, the Hadith assigned a high rank of authenticity, in the most authoritative (Sahih) compilations by the most respected muhaddithin, such as Bukhari and Muslim?
Does Issa Edah-Tally think that the figure of Muhamamd, uswa hasana, al-insan al-kamil, the Perfect Man according to Muslims, will forever be immune from study and criticism by non-Muslims, who will be horrified to find out about his pleasure at the decapitation of the hundreds of bound prisoners of the Banu Qurayza, his attack on the inoffensive Jewish farmers of the Khaybar Oasis so as to help himself and his followers to women and to loot (and the razzia, or raiding party, on non-Muslims later became enshrined in the Jizyah, the tax on non-Muslims that supported the Muslim state), his delight in the murders of Abu Akaf and Asma bint Marwan, murdered because of a satirical verse she dared to write about Muhammad? Does he think all this, and the "marriage" to little Aisha when she was nine years old -- which is a Model for All Time (Khomeini's first act, or close to it, was to reduce the marriageable age of girls to nine years, for after all, that was the age of the last wife of Muhammad, the Perfect Man, when he married her), and so much more, will remain forever unknown to Infidels, when it is all -- all of it-- just a click away at a thousand websites, neatly laid out?
How long do Muslims think they can continue to hide from non-Muslims what is in the texts --- Qur'an, Hadith, Sira -- and also hide from us the history of Muslim conquest and subjugation of non-Muslims, a history that extends in time over 1350 years and in space from Spain to the East Indies? Do they think that they can continue to get away with using Arab money to buy up academic centers, or found new ones? (See Esposito, John) Do they think that we will continue to listen to the apologists and propagandists, Muslim and non-Muslim, for Islam, who now make up about three-quarters of the members of MESA, or MESA Nostra, as it is known more and more (google "MESA Nostra")?
How long do they think they can get away with this, especially as we can look across the Atlantic and observe Muslim behavior in the countries of Western Europe?
Another ten years? Another five? How long?
"This thing is not about being a Muslim," Rodgers said.
i know that some people around here believe that, but am not one of them. i feel that being a muslim makes you one step below nazis. it's gonna take some hard work by muslims to convince me otherwise.
choi rock on!
Is this All-Caps CHOI from JW/DW?
Hooray for Mr. Choi.....I would then ask the Muslims to point out any verses in the Koran that would lead one to the conclusion that Islam is a "religion of peace," and that no harm is intended to any nonMuslim. Of course they can't and never will...
Ask yourself which nations are least likely to succumb to Islam? Which ethnic groups in the Western world are least likely to succumb to Islam? If you answer, to the first, "China, Korea, Japan" and if you answer, to the second, "those who have come themselves, or who are descended from those who have come" from "China, Korea, Japan" then ask yourself what it is about those countries, and their civilizational awareness and historical self-assurance, that help to immunize them? And then ask how it is that the Western nations, and their indigenes, have lost that civilizational awareness and self-assurance, and how they can and should re-acquire it.
It is a good thing that he does not live in the UK...Otherwise, he might find himself accused of racism against 'Asians.'
I also noticed the article described Todd Gallinger as a "born-again Muslim." That seems like an interesting description to say the least. Anyone care to speculate as to the motives behind the writer's choice of words?
"Irvine council candidate ties opponent to 'dangerous' Islamic group: Muslim leaders decry Steven Choi's comments as 'insulting and false,'" by Sean Emery for the Orange County Register, October 7 (misdated September 30; thanks to Charles)"
_____________________________________
By this Charles, not the other one.
Hugh,
'How long can they get away with it?'
Well, the way you put it you would think 5 minutes too long. But the answer must depend on when our dear leaders deign to withdraw their heads from the sand.
As for China, Korea and Japan; I understand that they still teach their young people to value their own culture. Our schools and Universities teach self-denigration, guilt-wallowing in the supposed sins of our ancestors, and the need for us to compensate the world for the crimes of the British Empire, slavery, genocide of native Americans, etc.
Add to that an eager acceptance of Islamic apologetics for fear of giving offence, the cult of the gospel according to St Edward (Said), all reinforced by mainstream media; we're in a modern comfortable version of the Soviet Gulags.
No room for dissent - punishable by branding. (racist, Islamophobe).
How to re-acquire our lost confidence: I don't know, but I'm sure this debate needs to be steered into the mainstream where more people can join in.
"Ask yourself which nations are least likely to succumb to Islam?"
My guess is Japan, Korea and China haven't gone through a "hippie renaissance" like most of the western nations. It quickly went from a time where the sound of a bulge and a charging cavalry coming to the rescue of the surrounded wagons was a thing of pride, and a cause to cheer, to a thing of shame in blink of an eye. From movies like - "How the West was Won", to "BillyJack and Soldier Blue". They, still like themselves.
Having spent half my life with Koreans, including 4 years in-country, I can tell you they're fiercly proud of their nation and culture, to the point of sometimes seeming arrogant.
I agree with Hugh that Korea would be one of the least likely nations to permit Islam to gain a foot-hold. In fact, if Muslims tried anything in Korea like they've tried in Europe such as rioting in the streets, I can imagine Koreans would kick some serious ass.
BTW, the pronunciation of CHOI would be CHAY, not CHOY... as in Yeaaaa, Choi.
FYI some helpful info about CAIR is found at the Anti-CAIR website:
http://www.anti-cair-net.org/ProvenCAIRtruth
and at a Frontpage Magazine story about Anti-CAIR
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=E10573A8-988C-44E4-A600-C650E59E2B14
CAIR leaders have demanded an apology from Choi, describing his comments as "not only insulting and false, but also tantamount to public defamation."
really i seem to recall cair bleating the samme s=it befor the baced out the mess they started with anti cair
In a letter to the councilman, Hussam Ayloush, executive director CAIR's greater Los Angeles area chapter, described the group as the "largest American Muslim advocacy organization," claiming it has "unequivocally condemned all acts of terrorism.
realy were ?
Steven Choi's Hate Mail Bag (as Mr Spencer calls it) will doubtless be filling up fast, right about now. He will be copping a barrage of threats and accusations.
All American jihadwatchers, especially those in and around Mr Choi's part of the world, should therefore be finding out how they can send him supportive and informative letters, phone calls and emails. If anyone here resides in Irvine, perhaps you should even try to find out how to visit his campaign office in person, to express support and approval.
ACT for America members - I'd say this is your call.
This war will, I think, have to be be won, in every kafir country, at ground level - PTAs and county, town, city and (in Australia) shire councils - before it is won at any higher level.
Whether in the USA, Canada, Australia or anywhere else, we are more likely to get mayors who know the truth about jihad and sharia, and act accordingly, long before we get members of parliament or congressmen, let alone presidents or prime ministers.
God bless Steven Choi. I hope he digs his toes in; and I hope he gets elected by a resounding margin.
I vote for you Choi !!
Some wise words from a long-ago Chinese journalist, as expressed in the English-language North China Herald, 1867, at a time when Muslims in western China were waging Jihad:
“If politeness and ceremony be observed toward Mohammedans, they imagine they are feared and become arrogant; but in showing severity and rudeness, they are impressed with fear and respect, and they are supple and manageable.”
Words that Councilman Steven Choi might like to bear resolutely in mind, as Muslims jump up and down *demanding* that he grovellingly apologise for 'insulting' them by merely pointing out facts.
Show them a stone wall, Councilman Choi. Do Not Submit.
I am wondering if Choi should get an honorable mention in this years Jihadwatch Awards for 08?
"This war will, I think, have to be be won, in every kafir country, at ground level - PTAs and county, town, city and (in Australia) shire councils - before it is won at any higher level.
Whether in the USA, Canada, Australia or anywhere else, we are more likely to get mayors who know the truth about jihad and sharia, and act accordingly, long before we get members of parliament or congressmen, let alone presidents or prime ministers.”
Posted by: dumbledoresarmy
Right on target as usual dumbledore, it must be done from the bottom up. Our “leaders” will follow (as usual) where the people lead them.
It is essential then, that all of us, who know Islam, pass on that knowledge to our fellow kuffar - however we can, whenever we can, as often as we can.
DEUS VULT!
You can send e-mails of support to Dr. Choi at drstevenchoi@gmail.com. He's a super nice guy and is thankful for all the support. ACT! for America in his area has gotten involved and is supporting him.
A shout out to all of you Jihad Watchers in Southern California, particularly Irvine, Tustin, Santa Ana, Costa Mesa, Mission Viejo, Laguna Hills, San Juan Capistrano and San Clemente, find out when the next city council meeting is and show up. Dr. Choi said that when this hit the fan on the 9/18 meeting six reps from CAIR showed up and used up their full three minutes apiece to harass him. Why not get some freedom fighters to show up and take up all the time at the next meeting, eh? Or better yet, a showdown between the Fellowship of the Ring and the Orks, eh?
I love the Koreans! They are some of my favorite people. In general, they are a hot-blooded, no-bullshit people, with the exception of the small liberal contingent that pretty much every culture/group has nowadays.
Isabella - great news. I'll pray for your team - and for Mr Choi.
Dave -
I'll have another go at getting in touch with you. I emailed Mr Spencer and told him to pass my personal email on to you so you can get in touch with me outside of this comments field, but seemingly the message has gotten lost.
I'd love to print off a job lot of your leaflets to give to some of the other mums at school, and people I meet around the place.
Dumbledore,
The leaflets would be useful at a Steven Choi event as well.
Email using JW link seems to reach me from all over the U.S. and Canada and I believe I even got 1 or 2 from the U.K. If you have email contact with anyone in those areas (preferably U.S.) perhaps we could transfer through an intermediary.
If you do this, please have the person reference dumbledoresarmy.
I have emailed Robert several times and Hugh once about the leaflets, as I would love to have their comments. They say they do not open attachments and they did not seem all that interested anyway. I would advise not holding your breath waiting for JW to send me your address.
“If politeness and ceremony be observed toward Mohammedans, they imagine they are feared and become arrogant; but in showing severity and rudeness, they are impressed with fear and respect, and they are supple and manageable.”
Words to live by, although in practice I just like to continually remind them how NOT superior they are, by, for example, sporting my "Everyone whose prophet raped his retarded 6-year-old niece raise your Koran" t-shirt. It also helps shame those sickos who would dare defend them.
I guess I sort of show them rudeness when I look right through them like they're not even there.
Choi in 2012, yo!
Thanks very much for the prayers, Dumbledore, and if you would, say some for the outcome of our election.
Jdamn, I love your t-shirts girl!
The backbone of what Hugh called: "civilizational awareness and historical self-assurance" generally exhibited by peoples of nations such as China,Japan,Korea (not only reflected in their historical dealings with Islam, but also in broader avenues) is first and foremost a different notion of family as a support construct, than that which has come to, regretfully, symbolize the contemporary Western model of such.
Along with Madison Ave. being ordained to wear a crown.
The art of individual critical thought and analysis has to be cultivated once more and preserved. Or at the very least, jump started. It's often people hailing from societies and cultures who have had intimate dealings with this ideology, (as opposed to those smooth talking propagandists who paint a much different image toward the impressionable, self loathing or naive, both of history and motive, here in the US) who are indeed the least susceptible toward submission.
I'm there. When is it?
Ah. Here.
I love you, PRCalDude! ; )
Choi's conviction is admirable. We need this kind of selfless conviction on the city council. Vote for Choi '08!