"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free...it expects what never was and never will be." -- Thomas Jefferson
The level of ignorance about the nature and magnitude of the jihad threat is today higher than it has been since before 9/11. Indeed, we may consider that now that the nation has opted for the comforts of this ignorance, an era has ended tonight, one that lasted from September 11, 2001 until today. One approach to meeting the jihad threat -- a deeply flawed approach, as we outlined many times here -- will be set aside for another approach, one that is in some ways identical to the discarded approach and in other ways vastly different from it.
Will it work more effectively to stave off the advancing jihad? Time will tell. But I am not confident that another policy conceived in ignorance of the motives and goals of our enemies can possibly be effective in the long run to keep us free.
The ignorance is greater now by a combination of
1) willful ignorance,
2) intentional deception by the MSM,
3) the deliberate use of fear to enforce silence and acquiescence to the creeping advance.
The means exist, like JW or the Robert Spencer books or Complete 9/11 Timeline website and video. But the desire to learn and the courage to speak out are not there.
This is how civilizations die? Just too much trouble?
Sobering and well said.
Am looking forward to receiving Stealth Jihad; and hope that Palin, Romney, et al. will read it. Somehow, I have little hope that the Democrats will.
Robert,
"But I am not confident that another policy conceived in ignorance of the motives and goals of our enemies can possibly be effective in the long run to keep us free."
A lot of your articles bring to mind chicken little and the sky...I wonder why?
You seem to blanket the entire world with your mythical "It's Us! vs Them!...ohhhhhh, they're out to get us...why, just ask them...I didn't say it! They said it!" (parphrased of course)
All this talk of Jihadi hordes coming to get us, and I consider that with eight million Muslims in America and two million in Canada (Bridges TV market survey) I have to ask myself for a reality check and ask, "How many terrorist attacks have occurred here in America post 9-11?"
I mean you trumpet all the time the world wide 10,000+ terrorist attacks!
If it is as you say, and there are these "core beliefs" and "core texts" that support the "violent jihad"....then if that were the case wouldn't there be an attack a day right here in the good old USA?
Can you explain why there is such peace and harmony here among my demography?
Because what I see just doesn't jive with everything you say.
Do tell.
Peace
Abdullah Mikail
Abdullah:
No terror attacks since 9/11 = no jihad threat?
Alas, no.
I just wrote a book explaining why. You'll have to buy a copy, as I doubt you will find it in your local library:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1596985569?ie=UTF8&tag=robertspencer-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=1789&creativeASIN=1596985569
Robert Spencer
Tell it like it is, RS. Obama Is Peace, Freedom Is Slavery, Ignorance Is Strength--Not! I'll be ready in eleven weeks or so, ready for that eventual midnight summons to relocate to the ReEducation And Correction Training (REACT)camp. How about the rest of you?
John C
Stand and fight, peacefully and persistently, in the public arena. It won't be so easy for them to silence all of us.
Cordially
Robert Spencer
Robert,
I personally don't want to silence you. I just want an answer.
I am here and now writing and thinking in real time and I want to know, if what you say is true, then why is it that there is not an attack a day here in the US right now? And for that matter, for the last seven years?
Peace
Abdullah Mikail
Abudllah:
Read the book.
The short answer, however, is that if you can achieve a goal by means other than blowing things up, then you don't have to go to the trouble and risk involved in blowing things up.
No one said you were trying to silence me, your veiled legal threats notwithstanding.
Robert Spencer
Yes, Robert, united we stand. See you Thursday. ; )
America is committing accidental suicide on all fronts out of willful ignorance with
media brainwashing, school indoctrination as contribution factors .
"Why no attack."
(a) Bush kept an electronic eye out.
(b) Many of the enemy are intelligent. Why would the CAIRites tip their hand to the naive? What benefit are dead infidels, when the force of history is going in the direction of Islam?
The Obama victory facilitates Western acceptance of the Religion of Peace. It would not be surprising, if violence broke out in Europe, to find that the American government was on the side of the inevitable oppressor.
There have been many attacks before and after 911 not reported as such .
OKLAHOMA CITY WAS ONE MCVIEGH WAS SUPPORTED BY SADDAM AND JIHADISTS AS WAS FLIGHT 800 WHERE THE RAMZI YUSEF IN JAIL TOLD ABOUT IT BEFORE IT HAPPENED ALSO A BOMBING OF A GAS REFINARY AND HUNDREDS MORE ACTS LIKE SUCH WE NEED TRUTH ABOUT US BEING HIT CONSTANTLY SINCE 911 AND IT LOOKS LIKE NOW WE HAVE ELECTED A MUSLIM PLANT WELL MY FRIENDS THE ANSWER TO THE QUESTION ARE WE THAT STUPID HAS BEEN ANSWERED WE ARE.
It was a great 232 years of america parties over folks first thing he will push is the domestic miltary he needs control quickly to slowly bring in more islamics watch and enjoy me im out of here see ya folks ill fight the battle from afar today america has been lost over reacting you say watch and learn .
Robert,
So your jihad theory is kind of like secret evidence then?
"Since there is no proof it is here you can't prove it isn't here."
Is that it?
Peace
Abdullah Mikail
Abdullah:
No, nothing secret about it at all.
I have posted the Muslim Brotherhood memorandum about a gazillion times. Surely you cannot pretend to be ignorant of it, and of the plan it describes.
In fact, I am quite sure you're not ignorant of it.
Robert Spencer
The level of ignorance about the nature and magnitude of the jihad threat is today higher than it has been since before 9/11.
How profound. How true.
Abdullah
Just so you know that some kafirs have noticed:
The Muslim Brotherhood “must understand that their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and ‘sabotaging’ its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and Allah’s religion is made victorious over all other religions.” The Muslim Brotherhood’s Mohamed Akram, “An Explanatory Memorandum on the General Strategic Goal for the Group in North America,” May 22, 1991
“We reject the U.N., reject America, reject all law and order. Don’t lobby Congress or protest because we don’t recognize Congress. The only relationship you should have with America is to topple it. . . . Eventually there will be a Muslim in the White House dictating the laws of Shariah.” Muhammad Faheed, a speaker at a meeting sponsored by the Muslim Students Association at Queensborough Community College, March 2003
“Let us damn America, let us damn Israel, let us damn them and their allies until death.” Sami Al-Arian, former computer science professor at the University of South Florida, in a speech in 1991
“Very soon, Allah willing, Rome will be conquered, just like Constantinople was, as was prophesized by our Prophet Muhammad. Today, Rome is the capital of the Catholics, or the Crusader capital. . . . This capital of theirs will be an advanced post for the Islamic conquests, which will spread through Europe in its entirety, and then will turn to the two Americas.” Hamas MP and cleric Yunis Al-Astal, which aired on Al-Aqsa TV on April 11, 2008
“I have complete faith that Islam will invade Europe and America, because Islam has logic and a mission.” Muslim Brotherhood leader Muhammad Mahdi Othman ‘Akef, 2004
“Islam isn’t in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Koran should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on earth.” Omar Ahmad, co-founder and former board chairman of the Council on American-Islamic Relations. He denies saying this, but the original reporter stands by her story.
“I wouldn’t want to create the impression that I wouldn’t like the government of the United States to be Islamic sometime in the future.” CAIR’s Ibrahim Hooper
“If only Muslims were clever politically, they could take over the United States and replace its constitutional government with a caliphate.” Moderate Muslim leader Siraj Wahhaj
Robert Spencer
All this talk of Jihadi hordes coming to get us, and I consider that with eight million Muslims in America...
Eight million. Fibber you know there's more like twenty million. By tomorrow morning that will double....That's due to rapid multiplication...
And what do you mean...'coming to get 'us'?
You ain't 'us'...you are 'them'.
Mr. Fitnah [ Sounds like a soft drink. : ) ]
“America is committing accidental suicide on all fronts out of willful ignorance with
media brainwashing, school indoctrination as contribution factors .”
Well your logic, although not a surprise to find it in use here, is a little, well…illogical.
I do feel you are however sincere in your desire to protect Americans and that I can appreciate.
Peace
Abdullah Mikail
duh swami
Abdullah knows full well there are maybe 2.3 million Muslims in the U.S. Maybe even fewer. He is just puffing out his chest, trying again to "strike terror into the hearts of the enemies of Allah" (Qur'an 8:60).
Cordially
Robert Spencer
No spccbat, we fight on. It's in the blood. While the Obama faithful fall all over themselves to empty his chamberpot because, after all, he gonna pay my mortgage and my gas bill halleluia, the real patriots among us, the ones with the blood and the guts will never surrender, never give in.
Could you imagine giving in to the likes of Abdullah Mikey Mikhail and letting him and his band of bumbling pedophiles hold any sway over us?
Get real. If Obama does win tonight, trust me, the last thing we will get is peace. The battle starts again at midnight tonight. Only this time we won't be so complacent since we're going to have to work that much harder.
Anyway, Abdullah, about all those quotes above, and the movement they represent: obviously, there is nothing secret about it, and no dearth of evidence, as I detail in the book.
You may say these folks are just blowing smoke. Or that they Misunderstand Islam. Or that they're just kidding. Or that you and yours and all 550 million Muslims in America hate and abhor and reject and excoriate them, all 13 of them, at every opportunity. Whatever.
The fact remains that the endeavor is being undertaken, without terror attacks, to achieve the same goal as those attacks.
And in fact I am confident that you are very familiar with this effort.
Robert Spencer
Thank you, Mr. Spencer.
Always thrilled by a word from The Man himself.
I'm already feeling rehabilitated. I guess this means I'm forgiven for my petition-packing escapade (they really needed our help; they couldn't deliver a message without it).
Rest up, then, in anticipation of your book tour and speaking engagements, and maybe we'll all meet up when the O.I.C. comes to town.
Lone Ranger to Tonto...'We are surrounded by Indians on all sides Tonto, what are we going to do'?
To which Tonto replied...'What you meanum 'we' white man...
Sound familiar Abdullah?
Their ain't no 'we' in you...Your with 'them'...
John C:
I'm sorry. I must confess I don't even know what you're referring to here.
Cordially
Robert Spencer
Did Obama win? Were all the votes counted? The polls are still open here. Did McCain concede, and late California voters just don't know about it?
Duh Swami,
Pamela is covering it over at Atlas. You can follow the states map here:
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/
Never give up hope.
duh swami
It's over. I knew it was over when I was traveling over the last few weeks, and saw how shamelessly and strenuously CNN (I avoid it when I'm not on the road) was shilling for one candidate. It can hardly be said that the American voting public was presented with a fair opportunity to make an informed decision.
But that's just the way it is, and in this particular field -- that is, the anti-jihad, or "war on terror" -- it is like that in spades, with even our putative allies quaking in their boots and flaking off at the first sign of the opprobrium of the elites. Well, that's just the hand we're dealt, and that's where I am going to stand and fight as long as I am able.
Cordially
Robert Spencer
Robert, it ain't over yet. Have faith my brother. So many people I know have gotten down on their knees and prayed for mercy. And God is merciful.
You need to play some of that cool jazz you were jivin' to on Christmas and not look at the results right now.
Whether Obama or McCain gets in, we fight on.
Isabella:
Of course.
I am quite through looking at the results.
Have you ever heard "Spiritual" as played by John Coltrane's Quintet with Eric Dolphy on November 5, 1961? (Hey, the anniversary is tomorrow.) The 20-minute version. Listen to Dolphy's solo: from anguish to calm resolve.
It is in toto a brilliant, beautiful piece of music, but Dolphy's solo is something even greater than that, something transcendent.
Cordially
Robert Spencer
Robert,
This is simplistic, “May 22, 1991” so this one memo from this one meeting, and I am supposed to trust the translation, okay, I’ll pretend it’s reliable, but this is supposed to be the all powerful overreaching super organization that is taking over?
What? Okay, I’ll suspend disbelief, this is after all entertainment…
Muhammad Faheed” Oh, yeah, he speaks for millions…right. Okay so some radical wingnut said something radical.
Sami Al-Arian, once again, I don’t know the source or the integrity, I’ll trust you, so what other radical professors have made similar radical comments? Oh, I forgot this one happens to be a Muslim, so it must be a part of the grand scheme. (P.S. First amendment rights in action, by the way.)
“Hamas MP” “Muslim Brotherhood leader” “Omar Ahmad” To coin a phrase Americana “BFD”…some guys don’t like us, don’t agree with our freedoms, so what’s new?
This is mindful of the Obsession film, lots of outtakes from different times all lumped together out of context and made to seem like some grand scheme…Robert, I don’t buy it, do you know primarily why?
I am very involved with Muslims in my own way across the board and none of the secret schemes you pretend are ever brought up.
Here in America we are concerned with the same things you are, and despite all the manure that has been shoveled by FPM lately about MAS trying to get Muslims not to vote, it’s BS. I got about ten e-mails this week from MAS campaigning to get the vote out.
So you are able to dig up minutiae and say “See! They said it, I am not making this up!”
Okay, so you sell a few books doing it…let’s pretend that’s not the goal…maybe that’s not your motive, I can pretend that, so you seem sincere in getting the message out, despite all the tongue in cheek and dark humor you use in doing it, so just pretend there are some people out there who actually are doing what you publish and sell and say that they are doing, I say big deal.
The few little entities you mentioned and their few radical statements don’t amount to a hill of beans when put up beside the reality I work with every day.
Muslims are not some distant boogey man I write about to sell copy...and only consult with the few munafiqs that support my cause…I work with the real deal all the time, dedicated sincere Americans and none of them are as you say they are.
Yes, there are many upset by the way they are treated, and the way they are portrayed in the media, and they get upset as they are harassed all over the place…some even file lawsuits justifiably…not me.
I don’t mind getting harassed at all…I paid my price for the freedom of this country and I am not going to see it slide into some fascist anti-Muslim bigoted empire…no, it isn’t going to happen.
Stay away from the far right, stay away from the far left, and stay very clear from people yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theater when there isn’t one…especially when that guy is selling tickets.
Peace
Abdullah Mikail
I can easily believe Obama won, or is winning, but the polls are still open here...I thought they said every vote counted...
I guess they were just kidding...
Abdulla
You and your Mohammedan brethern must be chagrined that the US has treated you like a global case of acne instead of the wrath of Satan that you imagine yourselves to be. If the Mahdi wins big the US and the west will no doubt open itself to some very nasty medicine from the Mohammedans. Then we will turn to the Muslim world and give it the attention it has needed for 14 centuries. Islam has to end some day as your envoy of Satan, Mohammed said. It's coming soon.
Robert,
I'm looking for it on You Tube right now. (Don't you just love it!)
Here's one of my favorites that will cheer you up, but you've got to listen to the whole thing.
La Cathedrale de Strasbourg by Focus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkXyF8-Z9Ao
Sheer heaven.
Abdullah
Yeah, yeah. I know. You never heard of these guys. It was all so long ago. So maybe a couple of people on the streetcorner somewhere don't like us. It's all nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing, and I must be just a hatemonger trying to "sell copy" if I happen to notice that the Brotherhood is a huge international Islamic association, or that most American mosques teach this stuff (as shown by the 2005 Center for Religious Freedom report, and Sheikh Kabbani's State Department testimony, etc.), or that no Muslims in America are doing anything but defaming me in response to it.
Yeah, yeah, I have heard all this before, you know? I hear this everywhere I go and in everything I do. And you know something, Abdullah? I wish you were telling the truth. I wish it were nothing, and that I could stop doing this, and forget all about it. But you see, my friend, it isn't that easy. Because when you take away the Brotherhood and CAIR and Siraj Wahhaj and the supporters of Al-Arian and the MSA and all the rest, there is very, very little left in terms of the presence of Islam in America.
You know it, and I know it. So stop trying to lie to these good people. But even if you don't stop lying to them and to me, and I know you won't, you can be sure right now that I am on this case, and that I will not get off this case. You will have to have your "uncle" come put me in prison to get me off this case, or maybe some of your less friendly coreligionists will take care of me some other way. But you with your smooth soothing words of deception are going to do absolutely nothing except strengthen the resolve in me to resist what you and the people I quoted above are doing, and to resist it with everything I have.
Robert Spencer
Robert,
I was hoping you'd take that bait... glad you chose to step into the ring on this one:
"Abdullah knows full well there are maybe 2.3 million Muslims in the U.S. Maybe even fewer. He is just puffing out his chest, trying again to "strike terror into the hearts of the enemies of Allah" (Qur'an 8:60)."
For nay sayers who simply don't want to face the facts, I reiterate: the estimated population of Muslims in North America is on the order of 10,000,000...based on current market surveys by Bridges TV, and population projections from these and other studies:
Psychiatric News January 21, 2005
Volume 40 Number 2
2005 American Psychiatric Association
p. 13
Professional News
Mich. Has Largest U.S. Muslim Population
Michigan has the second-largest Arab community outside the Middle East, after Paris. About 300,000 people of Arab descent live in southeast Michigan, including significant numbers of Iraqi, Lebanese, Yemeni, and Palestinian Americans. Almost two-thirds of the population were born in the United States, and 40 percent of those born outside of the country have moved here since 1980, according to data from the Arab Community Center for Economic and Social Services (ACCESS) Web site www.accesscommunity.org and the Detroit News.
Two-thirds of Arab Americans in the United States speak fluent English, and three-quarters use Arabic language media to keep informed. More than 90 percent of Arab Americans have close friends or family in the Middle East, and almost 65 percent have traveled there.
Demographers estimate that more than 8 million Muslims live in the United States, making them the second-largest religious community in the country. About half of Arab Americans are Muslim, while the other half identify themselves as Christian. In the past few decades, Islam has become the fastest-growing religion in the United States.
Methods-Based Estimates
Over the last twenty years, there have been only a few estimates of the Muslim population based on data and an explicit methodology.
Stone
Stone (1991) estimated the Muslim population in United States by taking the national origins of the U.S. population in 1980 according to the Census ancestry question and assuming that the same percentage of U.S. residents from these groups was Muslim as the proportion of Muslim residents in these nations, and then adding a large estimate for Muslims among African Americans.
This gave an estimate of 3,300,000 in 1980.
This number was then brought forward to 1986 by adding in an estimate of births plus immigrants during 1980-86 (assuming, as before, that immigrants matched the religious profile of their countries of origin). This gave a 1986 estimate of 4,000,000.
Mosque Study Project
A fourth approach estimates the Muslim population through studying Islamic organizations. There are considerable differences in estimates of the number of mosques and Islamic centers in the United States. Eck (2001) says there are nearly 1400 mosques; the Council on American-Islamic Relations reports that there are "almost 2,000 mosques, schools, and Islamic centers." Mujahid (2001) states that there are "3,000 small and large Islamic centers, mosques, and prayer locations."
The most rigorous estimate was from the Mosque Study Project 2000 (Bagby, Perl, and Froehle, 2001) which combined seven lists of mosques, eliminated duplicates, and attempted to verify the existence of each place. This generated a final list of 1209 mosques in 2000. The researchers then drew a sample of 631 and were successful in obtaining information about 416 of the mosques.
They found that 340 adults and children regularly participated in the average mosque, and that 1629 were "associated in any way with the religious life of the mosque." This converts to a national estimate of 1,969,000 mosque-associated Muslims nationally.
On the one hand, these figures naturally exclude all Muslims not associated with a known mosque. On the other hand, there are several reasons to question the 1629 per mosque figure.
First, denominations and congregations in general frequently overestimate their membership (Smith, 1991). This typically comes from both intentional overstatements and the failure to cull former members from the rolls. Second, the estimate of 1629 Muslims associated per mosque is very high. It is 2.4 times greater than a similar figure from 1994, 5.6 times greater than the average number attending weekly prayers, and 4.8 times the number of adults and children who regularly participate in the mosques. The mean figure is also 3.3 times the median mosque size of 500.
In fact almost 15 percent of the mosque-affiliated Muslims in their sample come from two mosques, each reporting 50,000 affiliates. Third, individuals may be associated with more than one mosque and therefore be double counted.
Duplication is particularly likely for the "associated in any way" figure, since the net is cast so broadly. Finally, the report acknowledges that small mosques were underrepresented in the achieved sample of 416 mosques, and this would bias upwards estimates of the size of the average mosque.
In addition to the estimate of 1,969,000 mosque-associated Muslims, Bagby, Perl, and Froehle (2001) also state that "estimates of a total Muslim population of 6-7 million in America seem reasonable in light of the figure of 2 million Muslims who associate with a mosque."
However, this assertion seems untenable. It increases the total number Muslims by three to three-and-a-half fold and assumes that for every Muslim associated in any way with a mosque, there are 2 to 2.5 other Muslims with no association whatsoever.
In closing I point out that the only scientific methodology which was used in the 1986 estimate of 4,000,000 Muslims is higher than I had previously assumed due to Reagan Administration estimates...but projecting modestly based upon factual growth rates in Texas alone, and being very conservative, we arrive at an estimated population in North America easily on the order of 10,000,000.
Anyone who wishes to discuss, please chime in, Robert has postured quite arrogantly and I feel he is not well armed to support his argument against these facts.
(P.S. Robert, you could always pose for style points in this debate, I am sure your rabid fans will vote your way.)
Your turn Robert, riposte, if you can.
Peace
Abdullah Mikail
Isabella
It isn't on YouTube, alas.
Cordially
Robert Spencer
I only hope that the pendulum has swung to the apex of the left.
The grand muslim plot is far from a secret what it is is being ignored by the media by most people we all know its there but the west is to pc so lets look at the abdullah so called non existant jidaist movement 500 towns in america bought up by muslims fenced in in ny with guard towers but lets just look around the world,
NEPAL THAILAND ENGLAND SPAIN INDIA PHILLPINES BELGIUM GERMANY FRANCE NORWAY DENMARK HOLLAND AMERICA VENISUALA CHINA
RUSSIA INDOENESIA MALAYSIA CARRIBEAN MOST ISLANDS MEXICO CANADA RUMANIA ARGENTINA MICRONESIA AUSTRALIA AFGHANISTAN ISRAEL PALISTINE LEBANON SYRIA IRAQ IRAN TURKEY SWITZERLAND ALL OF NORTH AFRICA MUCH OF MID AFRICA SOME OF LOWER AFRICA OF COURSE IN MODERN TERMS NOT ANCIENT DESCRIPTION OF LOWER TO UPPER .
AS OFFICER BARBRADY ON SOUTH PARK SAYS NOTHING TO SEE HERE FOLKS MOVE ALONG NOW OH AND BURMA I MISSED SOME BUT YOU GET THE GIST MALIK SO BASICALLY FROM AN OLD PHRASE OF A MOVIE I LOVE DONT PISS DOWN MY BACK AND TELL ME ITS RAINING OUT BUD AT LEAST HAve the nuts to admit its not 15 jihadists with 50 trillon frequent flyer miles im not a stooge and no one else here is either all those countries and more under attack from not jihadists but you muslims .
Abdullah
Re population, my 2.3 million figure comes from the Pew Research Center. Go argue with them. I did not originate the figure.
http://frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=0C45A525-DCC6-4DA7-A1BE-D81B7FA03FA1
Robert Spencer
Isabella
I did however find this, although I fear it will scandalize Hugh:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuiIyDxa750
Ah, how I miss Eric Dolphy.
Cordially
Robert Spencer
"No terror attacks since 9/11 = no jihad threat?"
Actually, foiled attacks count as actual attacks.
I can think of 5 off the top of my head:
the plot to blow up gas pipelines outside a New York airport that could have killed hundreds or thousands as those pipelines were part of a suburban network
the plot out of a UK airport to blow up airplanes over the US that according to intelligence organizations would have killed more than 911 did
the Fort Dix plot which recently revealed that one of the plotters wanted to amass explosives in trucks and blow up buildings elsewhere in the US as well
a Muslim who plotted to blow up a shopping mall in Cleveland
the Muslim group in Florida that plotted to blow up Sears Tower in Chicago.
(I'm sure there are others I forgot).
This isn't counting the other "sudden jihad syndrome" (SJS) attacks, both actual and plotted, including the Beltway Snipers, whose leader had grand plans to try to kill hundreds.
All of these (except for one SJS in 2000 at LAX) were after 911.
The fact that these attacks were stopped in time doesn't absolve Muslims from trying to kill us, and indicates they are continuing to try.
Robert, don't you think Abdullah Mikey Mikhail might just be a jihadi wannabe and isn't even a real Muslim? He reminds me of this awesome explanation of Obama that I found on Faith Freedom the other day. http://www.faithfreedom.org/obama.html. Obama as a pathological narcissist, you know, someone who wants you to think he's important but really hasn't done anything to deserve the praise and adulation he craves? Who does that remind us of here?
Oops, I forgot:
War,
Isabella
ROBERT: "Because when you take away the Brotherhood and CAIR and Siraj Wahhaj and the supporters of Al-Arian and the MSA and all the rest, there is very, very little left in terms of the presence of Islam in America."
I traveled to Washington DC back in - I believe - 2006, to witness what I thought was going to be a historic rally of Muslims against terrorism. The rally was running late and what few members of the press who were there implored the organizers to get started...the main spokesman responding, "but there are busloads of supporters who will be arriving any minute."
The busloads never came. The rally consisted of the organizers themselves, about 20 members of the press, and 6 or 7 passers-by who would stop and listen for a few minutes...and leave, to be replaced by someone else happening along.
I didn't see a SINGLE Muslim who wasn't among the rally organizers. It spoke volumes to me about the sympathies of the American-Muslim community. This was a chance for them to show their patriotism and their support for the war against terror...and they weren't the least bit interested.
Isabella
Re Abdullah: I don't know. Who can say what goes on in another person's heart? I have noted here several times that I think he is enjoying coming here and trying to "strike terror into the hearts of the enemies of Allah," but he isn't too effectual in that regard. I answer him only so that people of good will can see the facts of the matters he obfuscates and denies.
Cordially
Robert Spencer
We fight on i like you guys but you just dont get it the election of obama is the concession of the majority of americans to bow to islam and by the way 5 millon dead voteing and obama followers voteing in 50 times in every state assures this victory it is in fact over dems will vote in anything he wantsd the fiarness doctrine as well as the domestic miltary he has been giving hints about what hes gonna do and if ya dont get it read jerome corsis trip to kenya the document on how odinga can still win by obama if he loses election a majority of americans have voted to lose it is over i assure you obama will be our last president for a long while we tend to look at the attack on america as just islam but there are many other factors we dont look at start with the comeing civil war with california toi succeed.
Abdullah Mikail would have us believe he is a typical American, no different than the rest of us.
In a debate I had with him on an earlier thread, he referred to non-Muslim Americans as "your people"...and Muslims as "my people".
Instructional.
Cornelius
Yes, that was the Free Muslims March Against Terrorism. It got international publicity. Kamal Nawash was the Zuhdi Jasser of those days, on every TV show, lauded by every pundit, Left, Right, and Center. And he invited all the Muslim groups -- CAIR, MPAC, all of them -- to join him in condemning terrorism. And 20 Muslims showed up. If that many.
Thanks for bringing that up. It is useful to bear in mind when Abdullah starts protesting that I am exaggerating the importance of a handful of people because of some ulterior motive, and ignoring the dispositions of huge numbers who think differently. In reality, it is he who is doing that, not I.
Cordially
Robert Spencer
Robert,
I actually hosted Dr. Suleyman Nyang at my home when he came to visit us here in Texas, he knows about the pew study you brought up and he and I are sharing data once we touch base again.
The numbers the Pew Study reported were based upon their UNSCIENTIFIC study.
One sample, the Pew Study figures estimated for Pakistani Muslims was far beneath the actual real numbers from the Pakistani Embassy in the United States, you know the embassy the entity that stamps the passports and all...providing an apriori kind of defacto scientific proof for "X number of Muslims in" "X number of Muslims Out" Wow, add the X's that stayed in are far greater as reported by the Pakistani Embassy than those the pew study "estimated". The Pew is not reporting the truth, they reported an non-scientific estimate.
We can follow up on this once I close the loop with Dr. Suleman Nyang. I have data to share with him and I hope he reciprocates, but he is an important academic and I just a novice researcher.
Scientific means and methods Robert, you know, research, proof, verification...this is not some "gut feeling emotion" we are trying to achieve here as most of your copy does...hit people in their fears and their appetites for mass appeal, then tell them the price of the ticket for the cure, right?
Peace
Abdullah Mikail
I have been
Abdullah
Yes, yes, of course, every fact, every statistic, every study that doesn't suit you, why, it is unscientific, it is based on emotion, it is tendentious, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, of course.
In reality, the Pew Center estimate was one of the few estimates of the Muslim population in the U.S. that did not originate with Muslim groups who were trying to exaggerate their own importance and political influence in the U.S. It was one of the only estimates made by dispassionate and relatively neutral observers who were, as the details of how the study was conducted show, quite favorably disposed toward Muslims in the United States.
Does it ever tire you to continually lie, all the time, constantly, day in and day out? Doesn't it weary your soul? I tell you, my friend, it would weary mine. Don't you just get fatigued and wish you could tell the truth, just once, just for a little while, just please have some integrity even for a tiny moment?
How dreadfully difficult and burdensome it would be to be in your position. I feel for you, my friend.
Robert Spencer
Cornelius,
When speaking to someone it helps to use their language, and since you are a "We'enze aginst them'nze" kind of guy (at least you come across as that type) I most likely thought I'd speak to you in your language.
It doesn't matter what you think, though.
I served with honor to protect your right to freely think it, so yeah, I am not like everybody else here...I don't take my freedom for granted because I know what it cost.
You sound like a civilian, am I wrong?
Peace
Abdullah Mikail
The march of folly. Seven years after they murdered 3000 Americans and got us entangled in two quagmires costing $hundreds of billions, we have just rewarded the Muslim world by electing a president named Hussein. You don't need BF Skinner to tell you what sort of behavior you may expect in the very near future.
What is Narcissism?
The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) describes narcissism as a personality disorder that “revolve around a pattern of grandiosity, need for admiration, and sense of entitlement. Often individuals feel overly important and will exaggerate achievements and will accept, and often demand, praise and admiration despite worthy achievements.”
Abdullah
And of course, it isn't just every study like the Pew Center's you have to deny. It is also all the evidence -- like the quotes I pasted in above -- that doesn't shoehorn into your pinched little lie about the Muslim community in America, and how uniformly and to a man, all 605 gazillion Muslims in America, wakes up every morning and puts a hand to the heart and recites the Pledge of Allegiance, and thanks God that they are in America where there is non-establishment of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, and equality of rights of all people before the law.
What? A Muslim in America who wants Sharia here? It couldn't happen! It's unheard of! It's...it's...unscientific! It's...hate! It's...bigotry! Forget what the Brotherhood says, forget what the CAIR co-founder said, forget what one of the most popular Muslim speakers in the country said, forget so very much more -- none of them mean it, you see. Or if they do, all the other 896 trillion Muslims in the U.S. abhor it with every fiber of their being.
The only thing we lack in this wonderful scenario is the slightest scrap of evidence to support it. You cannot point to a single non-supremacist, anti-Sharia Muslim organization in the U.S. except for Jasser's, which is very small. You cannot point to Islamic textbooks that teach the virtues of non-establishment and equality of rights -- not even a single one -- to balance out those that teach supremacism and the value of Sharia rule, that have been abundantly established as being used all over the U.S.
How hard it must be to keep up your act, Abdullah.
Robert Spencer
How many Mohammadans in the US?
There's only one reason to care...demographic jihad...Immigrate, multiply like jack rabbits, capture the vote and take over.
But not to worry Abdullah, The new President and now 'Chief Filthy Kufr', will do everything in his power to help you out...he's a good kufr...honest...
Thanks Robert for that sweet sax. Maybe the same guy who put that clip up on You Tube will add "Spiritual". I'll ask him.
I don't know...Abdullah Mike sure seems like he needs to prove something. He is arrogant to be sure, but really, more pathetic. I applaud you for having the patience to answer his drivel so that others might learn from the exchanges. Is he aware he is in a petrie dish?
Delusion,
Isabella
Folks, this was close--just as we had expected it to be--media shilling and obscuring of issues (AP writers emphasizing Ayers' "non-lethal" bombing campaign; guys, ever hear the expression, "deadly intent"?) notwithstanding--mighty close, given the stacked odds.
Robert Spencer
Once again out comes the name calling…I guess when a person like you senses defeat the knuckle draggin bigot just rises to the surface, huh?
It must get old after a while, the playground antics you use?
1) 2005 American Psychiatric Association – Oh, yeah I see what you mean “Muslim Sources”
Muslim Sources – oh, how could I have missed that?
2) University of Massachussetts, Carol Stone (1991) oh, yeah another “Muslim Source”
And last but not least;
Bagby, Perl, and Froehle (2001) – Yup, you got me Robert, “Muslim Sources”
There’s no fooling you with the facts, is there, Robert?
Truth
Abdullah Mikail
Isabella
I love you, but Eric Dolphy on "God Bless the Child" is playing bass clarinet.
Back when I played soprano saxophone I once had an opportunity to buy a bass clarinet. I tried it, it was hard (for me) to get a good tone out of it and I thought, Well, I already am trying to play one instrument that is very hard to make behave in terms of pitch and tone, I don't need another. So I passed. Maybe I should have gone ahead and bought it, and perhaps today I'd be coming out with my eighth record instead of my eighth book, but the jihad intervened and I never made any records at all, or got close to doing so.
This is of course the stuff that dreams are made on, and so to balance all that out a friend sent me this tonight, a propos of the election. It is from Shakespeare's The Tempest:
Or, a propos of the present discussion, as Charles Mingus put it in the title of another brilliant piece, dedicated to Dolphy when he was about to leave his band, "So Long, Eric."
So long, Eric, indeed. Time to get to work, while we still can work.
Cordially
Robert Spencer
Malik ill ask again no world wide muslim conspiracy what about all the countries i named.
Abdullah
Yeah, I'm a "knuckle dragging bigot" for wanting to preserve Western civilization from your coreligionists who have vowed to "destroy" it "from within."
Sure. Whatever. That you would not join me to defend Western civilization, but instead constantly play your gnat act here, speaks for itself.
Anyway, if you actually read what I wrote, you will see that I said that the Pew Center's data was "one of the few" estimates that hadn't come from Muslim groups trying to inflate their numbers. I didn't say your data was all from Muslim sources. You are once again twisting the record in a dishonest fashion, but I remind you that anyone can scroll up and see for himself.
Refute the Pew Center's number if you can. Name-dropping Suleyman Nyang doesn't quiiite accomplish that.
Robert Spencer
Robert,
Seems you are loosing your cool and your touch with reality here?
"The only thing we lack in this wonderful scenario is the slightest scrap of evidence to support it."
Since when do you accept anything like factual evidence?
I mean, I rub your little puppy nose in it, the mess you publish some times, and you still don't smell what you did wrong.
Facts mean nothing to you, Robert.
A person could prove to you all day long that what you said is in fact wrong, and not the truth, and you simply deny.
What is for real and what is for sale?
That's the real fact Robert, and you are clearly not real as you are for sale. A price tag comes with everything you publish, that's the bottom line.
Show me something you sold prior to jumping on the Jihad Band Wagon. Anything?
Truth
Abdullah Mikail
well, now that President Obama is president, we can expect a million or so man 'Civilian Security Force', that he tells us will be as well funded and powerful as the military.
It only makes sense that that in order to guard the interior from itself, requires tanks, and field artillery. Maybe some bombers, an aircraft carrier even.
And that's just the mechanizations, the Civilian Security guys', will come into our towns and communities and restore order.
They always do...
I for one am glad that President Obama has protecting us on his mind...
One year max...
"You can always count on Americans to do the right thing—after they’ve tried everything else."
Winston Churchill
Don't worry folks, one day we will do the right thing....
Abdullah-
How many Muslims in America? Too many.
What a disappointing night.
I cannot believe that there are that many stupid people in the US.
AbdullahL
You are such a deep-dyed, indefatigable liar.
Uh, allow me to remind you that this is a free site, for which I have written reams and reams of stuff that nobody has to pay me a penny to read.
Let me ask you also: that military service that you so frequently bring up -- did you get paid?
Up above I gave you eight actual quotes from Muslims related to the jihad against America. In response, you downplayed their importance. On whose word? Your own. With what evidence? None.
So which of us is actually dealing in facts, and which in sly deceptions, detours, and distortions?
The record is clear, my friend.
I recommend you try telling the truth, just once. You will find it spiritually liberating.
Robert Spencer
ABDULLAH: "When speaking to someone it helps to use their language, and since you are a "We'enze aginst them'nze" kind of guy (at least you come across as that type) I most likely thought I'd speak to you in your language."
RESPONSE: You see folks, apparently it was I who was responsible for Abdullah's choice of language. Just like so many of his co-religionists, he would rather project onto others than take responsibility for his words.
Abdullah signs off his posts with words like "peace" and "truth"...and yet, resorted to adolescent name-calling when debating me ("dumb redneck"). His veneer of composure and moderation crumbled right along with his arguments.
Again, this is instructional. We have a self-proclaimed "moderate" Muslim exhibiting so many of the behavioral characteristics of his radical brethren.
Uh-oh! Can I blame that faux pas on my pre-Alzheimers? I guess that would validate my decision to play the drums in the high school band and NOT the saxaphone. My sister says I'm tone deaf to top it of, although I think she's full of it.
Shakespeare is indeed appropriate for a night like this, but I prefer the hope of Henry V's speech here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAvmLDkAgAM and Mel's here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLrrBs8JBQo
"You've come to fight as free men, and free men you are. What will you do without freedom? Will you fight? Fight and you may die, run and you'll live, at least a while, and dying in your beds, many years from now, would you be willing to trade all the days from this day to that, for one chance, just one chance, to come back here and tell our enemies they make take our lives, but they'll never take our freedom."
You duh swarmi are glad hes building a gestapo may i refer you to document corsi found in kenya obama to odinga then tell me how glad you are last time this was proposed was 1932 gewrmany im glad your glad my god can we be this dense.
"The soprano is like the ungrateful child, it's the difficult child of the family."
The late, great Steve Lacy on the soprano saxophone:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlFUPVv6010
RS
abdullah still wont respond to my proof of the world wide muslim conspiracy huh cat got your tongue there buddy need a little help do ya well here ya go the answer is yes absolutely a world wide muslim conspiracy sorry for not laying down for ya
Civilian Security Force--you mean, the Obama Guards, those fierce defenders of the New Order, whose motto must surely be, "Socialism Or Death"?
Steve Lacy with Steve Potts on alto sax, playing Lacy's wonderful tune "Prospectus" in Prague in 1990.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrXOTSXbYLw&feature=related
RS
One last thing, Abdullah, and then I'm going to bed:
Bagby, eh? Would that be Ihsan Bagby? (Yes, it would.)
Ihsan Bagby had said: "Ultimately we can never be full citizens of this country, because there is no way we can be fully committed to the institutions and ideologies of this country."
Yet another proponent of the stealth jihad agenda, eh, and you have The Audacity of B.S. in full supply, enough to cite his study about Muslim population figures. Gee, he couldn't be one of those people I mentioned who would try to inflate the numbers of Muslims in this country in order to exaggerate their influence, would he? Of course not!
Enjoy "Prospectus," and good night.
Robert Spencer
Here are first pictures of Obama's new palace guard.
http://gawker.com/5076236/scaryridiculous-black-panthers-guard-philly-polling-place
Robert, Abdullah Mikey proves by his incessant posting and attacks on you that he is a wanker. All whine, no cheese.
Good night, sweet prince.
Spcbat,
You are very correct.
Nobama's "Civilian Security Force"=Gestapo
Welcome to the New America. Change is what you voted for. Change is what you'll get.
Robert,
In the interest of Academic Honesty (something alien to your line of work, I know) I included the study that actually did not inflate the numbers...if you note the Bagby study disagrees with Stone in principal and took an entirely different tack on their estimate.
Had I wanted to inflate I could have posted only those that agreed with me...I didn't.
Obviously a scientifically based study that comes up with a 1986 estimated population of nearly double the Pew Study UNSCIENTIFIC estimate like twenty years later later...well, someone is lying, because immigration alone on that time line could probably fill the bill for the 2.3 million number...maybe that was it, huh? Maybe the Pew Study was only the new immigrants...could be...because it wasn't factual...it was an unscientific estimate, and it was contested as well by the people who funded it.
Have a good night Robert.
Peace
Abdullah Mikail
OK FOR THOSE THAT MAYBE DID NOT HERE OF DOCUMENT OBAMA TO ODINGA HE TELLS ODINGA HOW TO GRAB POWER IF HE LOSES ELECTION ODINGA BY THE WAY RAN ON A SHARIA LAW PLATFORM FOR ALL IN KENYA IN IT OBAMA SUGGESTS CLAIMING VOTER FRAUD THEN USEING THAT TOCREATE VIOLANCE TO OBTAIN A PART IN THE GOVERMENT YES WHEN I SAY HES CREATEING A GESTAPO I MEAN GESTAPO AND ILL TELL YA ONE BETTER.
HE WILL HAVE A THIRD FOUTRTH FIFTH SIXTH TERM YOU READ IT HERE FIRST OR AS THE HOLLYWOOD VIDEO SONG WITH FORREST WHITAKER PRAY TO OBAMA SAYS HE IS THE MESSIAH.
Where is Naseem when we need her for comic relief? Probably hiding in her Lahore home fearful of persecution from her 'religion of peace' because she's Ahmadi. She predicted this a year ago that Amerike would go this way, with 'sharia lite': http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/018705.php#c470398
Better hide your guns. This is a new Amerika. Abdullah Mikail is the new Naseem? "No worries sharia-lite" for Amerika?
It doesn't matter who's in the White House, and Obama's victory is not an issue, if we keep our Constitutional rights, especially the freedoms guaranteed by the First Amendment. Congratulations Barack for a good victory. Impressive.
The future is now here. Bush is fast to fade to history, no longer will he be a crutch of blame and fault. It has all changed. And the real change is starting, like it or not, the people will take the new era with all the pain that will be needed to learn from.
Tomorrow the promise of "change" becomes a real future. It is a begining, that will be needed to move forward. Forward to the next change that is coming
Looking forward to 2012.
I don't know, Spcbat. The anti-Christ is only supposed to rule 3 1/2 years.
Isabellathecrusader -
Thank you for the William Wallace speech! One of my favorites of all time! Maybe it's time to put in that movie tomorrow. (For the zillionth time!)
spcbat...Obama in now our president.
Do you object to the idea that he want's to protect us by flooding our streets with armed protectors? And maybe a few tanks?
You know, most of these 'Civilian Security guys' will be former gangsters, and other problematics that need jobs to stay off dope, and out of trouble.
Obama will provide jobs by arming these guys and busing them to your street, to restore order, and protect you.
I would think Americans who are always under some kind of attack, would welcome armed xx gangsters on the street corners keeping the peace...Don't forget, they will also protect Mohammadans...
President Obama loves them too...
Robert,
You are so full of brown stuff you smell...do you think all people are as stupid as you?
I recently noted the little "braggin rights" my blogg is worth 24,000,000 + dollars icon in the lower lift hand corner of your blogg...until recently? Where'd it go?
and the ever so gratuitous:
"Make a Donation" We're a 501 3c
(We're not pan handlers here!)
So all those books you advertise here are free?
All the commercial products you advertise here and sell from here are free?
Wow, go figure?
Man Robert, you really do think people are as stupid as you are, don't you?
Good night,
Abdullah Mikail
I'm with you Mo.
Every man dies; not every man really lives.
It's all for nothing if you don't have freedom.
Battle of Tours,
You're kidding, right?
Rapid-fire commentary:
Ignorant and free: Not for long.
Long-winded text-dumps (e.g., 10:54pm): Bad.
Jazz: Good. Very Good.
Caps-lock: Off ==> Good.
Mr. Conelius,
"We have a self-proclaimed "moderate" Muslim"
I have never claimed this...thes are your words, your opinion, be honest.
Prove where I ever said this and I'll leave this blog forever.
Your ball, "Bubba" : )
Truth
Abdullah Mikail
Abdullah:
I drop back by after brushing my teeth and what do I see? More detours, more denials, more obfuscations. You just can't fight a decent fight, can you?
One more time. I asked you a question: did you get paid for your military service, or didn't you?
But I see also that you are getting rattled, and starting to get crude. I don't like crude talk here, you see? So while I have not banned you for lying, or for defaming me, or for being obnoxious in general, I will certainly ban you if you continue to be crude.
Have a good night, now.
Robert
Marisol, LOL!
What I think is funny is that Abdullah Mikey actually thinks any of us listen to him. I read Robert's responses and scroll through the Abdu man. Boring doesn't begin to describe it.
Cornelius,
"His veneer of composure and moderation crumbled right along with his arguments."
Do you refer to the fiasco you called a "debate" where you attempted to associate out of context quotes from the Quran and pretend to "teach" others here what they meant?
Do tell...because I personally got a belly roll at how foolish you made yourself look...even moreso knowing that you thought you were making points in the debate...now that was funny.
Pray tell raise the debate again and we'll see it through this time peacefully and without any name calling...although, this being an entertainment industry site, sometimes a little spike in the debate is fun.
What do you say...topic is open...your ball, wanna play?
Abdullah Mikail
Battle of Tours,
You're kidding, right?
Posted by: Isabellathecrusader
I like dry humor. Big money won this one, and I smell a trail all the way back to Saudi funding.
For some today is a great moment, and it is. Who would have believed four decades ago during the Black race riots that one day a Black/White American would be President of the United States? That is impressive. But for other reasons, this is also a major test for this country, whether or not the freedoms upon which it was built can survive the ground swell we just experienced. Americans voted for Barack Obama, that is real. Now what does it mean? I will reserve judgment until he has shown what he really is made of, not talk, but the walk.
What? No peace or truth this time? You're right Robert, he's getting rattled.
Robert,
Calling people liar with out providing any proof? Isn't that sort of thuggish behaviour?
And yes, they paid me a wage which was next to nothing when I served, and out of which I bought my own uniforms which I cleaned and pressed myself...not quite the $24,000,000+ "suit" you wear here though was it?
Very well, I can shoot very straight if you can, although I must say since you do have your finger on the "ban button" I am at a disadvantage, and since this is your blogg I have been graciously allowed to post on, I beg a reprieve from the "axe."
And I sincerely hope you have a good night.
Abdullah Mikail
DUH SWARMI
Your right im being insensitive to the facists im not being very pc i will pray to obama tonight for forgiveness your right we need a few millon more good jihadists here lol im loseing my sense of humor thanks for pointing it out .
Okay tours, I gotcha now. Yeah, that big money smell back to S.A. was a good catch. According to the radio talk shows people were calling in a couple of weeks ago saying their credit cards had been charged with small donations to Barack Obama's campaign. When avowed conservatives called the credit card companies their were plenty of mea culpas and immediate reimbursements...from a fund set up by, you know who? How clever. How efficient. How devious.
Sweeping and overwhelming? Yes. Impressive? Nothing of the sort. Winning by cheating is not impressive.
Please follow the Gays In Jordan thread in DW. I've added a notice about a gay man in Tehran, and how his family uses Taqquia to save him from Shia injustice.
There’s no fooling you with the facts, is there, Robert?
Truth
Abdullah Mikail
Posted by: Abdullah Mikail [TypeKey Profile Page] at November 4, 2008 11:31 PM
You are a contemptible liar, an archetypical muslim thug. Your filthy nest awaits; go crawl into it.
Don't forget to grovel to allah precisely on time or the sky might fall and crush you. That would be a tragedy.
Abdullah is a quasi apostate, which is why he is always frustrated. Not quite a real Mohammadan, but close enough that it's hard for him to break away...
The theme song for this is 'Breaking up is so very hard to do'...hard but not impossible...Allah is already disgusted with you Abdullah, why stick with him?
Do you think he's a closet beer drinker? It is oh so tempting to be a real American. ; )
Goodnight all. Gotta' get some sleep to fight the good fight, starting tomorrow.
One approach to meeting the jihad threat -- a deeply flawed approach, as we outlined many times here -- will be set aside for another approach, one that is in some ways identical to the discarded approach and in other ways vastly different from it.
.....................
Yes--there is no doubt that the "War on Terror" was in many ways a flawed approach--beginning with its name. But now we will no longer have a "War on Terror"--instead, we will "Negotiate with Terror", or, perhaps, "Find Common Ground with Terror".
This new way of dealing with the issue may make us long for the old approach, flaws and all.
spcbat...I should label sarcasm on/of, but since 85% of my posts are sarcastic to some degree, I forget...
To quote a great American in a time of deadly challenges . . .
"NUTS"
The country is going further backwards, but we shall survive, defeat our enemies, and live to prosper in the future.
The U.S. Constitution will outlive the Koran.
The West (or at least parts of it) will survive the temptations of fascism.
A few days of binge drinking to clear out the bad karma, and my determination to resist shall return.
Long live the West.
If we do not define the enemy openly what do you expect? After eight years we are unable to capture the biggest terrorist and unable to stop his threats... that is something, in my book completely unacceptable.
Robert,
Let’s take this day with philosophy.
What the world needs, especially Europe, is an Umwertung aller Werte regarding anti-Americanism. Obama may be ignorant of the Islamist threat. Yes. But Bush was ignorant as well (I believe that Iran and especially Saudi Arabia, not Irak, should have been the military targets in recent years). However ignorant, with his innovative look the new president may at least change a bit the anti-American Zeitgeist in the civilized world.
Take it with philosophy. Franklin D. Roosevelt did not see the communist threat and, with Churchil himself —not with Chamberlain!—, he was photographed beside Stalin. A monstruosity... but America and the UK woke up after that.
I wish you will be around for the next 50 years, Robert. Sooner or later the West has to wake up. Perhaps we need a good jolt: like Sweden or Norway falling under sharia. That could certainly wake up a few spineless Europeans.
Did you know that when Orwell tried to publish Animal Farm the editors rejected the manuscript, largely to avoid offending commie sensibilities? But after that the UK woke up.
Thanks to Orwell, Koestler and later Solzhenitsyn part of the West woke up, even France. Similarly, thanks to you and people like Bruce Bawer and Ibn Warraq this side of the hemisphere might, albeit slowly, start to see the light.
So please continue doing the good work, Robert. Obama might not be that bad... And please ban these gremlins who bother your forum machinery with specious arguments.
Have a good night in this historical day...
Cesar Tort (real name)
Cesar Tort, sharia courts in Britain are already a wake-up call that the US shouldn't ignore.
It would be great if Tom Tancredo's Sharia Prevention Act could become a constitutional amendment, not just a congressional act. That would be a well-deserved kick in the nuts of people like the Nazis from the Islamic Thinkers' Society and CAIR, who would feel compelled to pack up and join forces with Abu Hamza's thugs in the UK to keep advancing their cause.
Ok, different topic - anybody know how our candidates (anti-Jihad candidates) are doing in the house races? Sue Myrick? Vijay Kumar?
Debbie Sclussel listed some Republicans who deserve to go down in defeat. Joe Knollenburg did, but Darryl Issa didn't. Well...
So how many pro-Jihadis are there left in the GOP after last night's bloodbath?
Robert,
Your "debate" with Abdullah Mikail was fascinating and illuminating to say the least. Thanks for taking the time to expose him. He accused you of "name calling" in one post (you didn't...just scroll and read for proof) then in the next breath he calls you a "knuckle-dragging bigot"! So, who's the name caller?
So typical of today's smug closet-Jihadist to project their false victimhood onto others.
Abdullah:
Proof:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/023167.php#c589004
More proof:
This number is your own fantasy. The only number close to it that has ever been posted here is the number of visitors since May 30, 2006. Not only am I not getting rich doing this, but I have also to make provisions for the death threats your coreligionists have sent me. Your harping on the issue of money is simply one more attempt to deflect attention away from where it should be, on the jihadists. Well, I'm not playing. Unless you can show me all the Muslim writers who write books and don't get paid for them, I will make no apologies for working for a living.
The real question is, is what I am saying true. Let me remind you again that your dismissals of the Islamic groups and individuals I quoted above don't ring true, and that you have not produced and cannot produce a single non-supremacist, anti-Sharia Muslim organization in the U.S. except for Jasser's, which is very small. You cannot point to Islamic textbooks that teach the virtues of non-establishment and equality of rights -- not even a single one -- to balance out those that teach supremacism and the value of Sharia rule, that have been abundantly established as being used all over the U.S.
Yet you deny that this movement exists, or is of any significance or influence, although if you have ever stepped into a mosque in the U.S. (and before you ask, yes, I have) you almost certainly have encountered signs of its activity. Then you ask why I don't think you're honest?
Robert Spencer
Dear Mr Spencer -
I speak as a fellow Christian; and as a citizen of a country which has been an ally of the United States for some sixty years, and owes the US a huge debt of gratitude for what was done during the War in the Pacific; I do find this election result rather worrying.
You, and all US citizens who are sworn to resist jihad and sharia; along with all newly elected members of the United States government, will be in my prayers.
Perhaps this great hymn of the Irish church will help to encourage you...
Atomriug indiu niurt tren togairm trinoit...
“St Patrick’s Breastplate, or, The Deer’s Cry”.
I arise today
Through a mighty strength, the invocation of the Trinity
Through belief in the three-ness
Through confession of the oneness
Of the Creator of Creation.
I arise today
Through the strength of Christ’s birth with his baptism
Through the strength of his crucifixion with his burial
Through the strength of his resurrection with his ascension
Through the strength of his descent for the judgment of Doom.
I arise today
Through the strength of the love of Cherubim
In obedience of angels
In the service of archangels
In hope of resurrection to meet with reward,
In prayers of patriarchs
In prediction of prophets
In preaching of apostles
In faith of confessors
In innocence of holy virgins
In deeds of righteous men.
I arise today
Through the strength of heaven:
Light of sun
Radiance of moon
Splendor of fire
Speed of lightning
Swiftness of wind
Depth of sea
Stability of earth
Firmness of rock.
I arise today
Through God’s strength to pilot me:
God’s might to uphold me
God’s wisdom to guide me
God’s eye to look before me
God’s ear to hear me
God’s word to speak for me
God’s hand to guard me
God’s way to lie before me
God’s shield to protect me
God’s host to save me
From snares of devils,
From temptations of vices
From everyone who shall wish me ill,
Afar and anear,
Alone and in multitude.
I summon today all those powers between me and those evils
Against every cruel merciless power that may oppose my body and soul
Against incantations of false prophets
Against black laws of pagandom
Against craft of idolatry
Against spells of witches and smiths and wizards
Against every knowledge that corrupts man’s body and soul.
Christ to shield me today
Against poison, against burning,
Against drowning, against wounding,
So that there may come to me abundance of reward.
Christ with me, Christ before me, Christ behin me,
Christ in me, Christ beneath me, Christ above me,
Christ on my right, Christ on my left,
Christ when I lie down, Christ when I sit down, Christ when I arise,
Christ in the heart of every man who thinks of me
Christi in the mouth of every man who speaks of me,
Christ in every eye that sees me,
Christ in every ear that hears me.
I arise today
Through a mighty strength, the invocation of the Trinity,
Through belief in the threeness
Through confession of the oneness,
Of the Creator of Creation."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFcE_4yDDWU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWRaTHIaLAs&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJx_Lu4PymE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXoz7nhqrpc&feature=related
Dumbledoresarmy: On such a day: beautiful. Your sharing this is wonderful. Thankyou.
Dumbledoresarmy: On such a day: beautiful. Your sharing this is wonderful. Thankyou.
But I am not confident that another policy conceived in ignorance of the motives and goals of our enemies can possibly be effective in the long run to keep us free.
A couple of weeks ago I was talking to the 11 year old son of one of my associates who attends a VERY conservative Christian Church. The boy is in the choir there.
The boy told me that the choir was visited by one of the missionaries that had been in Niger for sometime and regaled the group with stories of other children from that country all of whom were muslim.
The Christian missionary told the choir boys that most everybody in Niger worships "allah" and that "allah" was merely the Arabic word for "god."
Therefore, the missionary explained - it was okay to sing songs to "allah" because after all, everyone understands that they worship the same "god."
The boy then told me that his choir was directed to sing a songs to alla during their choir practice so that they could "experience" that it was acceptable to do so.
In other words, a Christian boy's choir in the US, in an apparently VERY traditional, VERY conservative organization, is being taught to sing to allah by Christian missionaries.
Consider the implications of that will you in terms of stealth jihad?
I don't believe this to be mere ignorance -- it is a deliberate to blend islam and Christianity in an attempt to reinvent the later.
The era ended with the nomination of these two candidates. John McCain was all for fighting the war abroad but had no understanding of the war at home. HERE is where our freedom will have to be defended. McCain showed no understanding of that. I'm waiting to see how the world reacts when the candidate so many of them wanted acts as he promised - and screws us all. If any of these countries think Obama's election will make them safer, they are sorely mistaken.
Dumble: That prayer reminded me of something similarly Irish that's quoted by Thomas Merton in his book, "Contemplative Prayer", which I carry around in my daypack, along with the Penguin edition of the Upanishads.
"That I may bless the Lord
Who conserves all--
Heaven and its countless bright orders,
Land, strand and flood,
That I might search the books all
That would be good for any soul;
At times kneeling to beloved Heaven,
At times psalm-singing;
At times contemplating the King of Heaven,
Holy the Chief;
At times at work without compulsion,
This would be delightful;
At times picking kelp from the rocks
At times fishing
At times giving food to the poor
At times in a carcair (solitary cell)"
witness: I'd like to dialogue with you about your last post, but I've a ferry to catch. Please look here later if you'd like to enjoin me.
McCain showed no understanding of the war abroad either - given his support for Kosovo independence, and even in Iraq, his aggressive advocacy on the surge and his second-guessing Rumsfeld at every turn, even though the initial occupation administration under Paul Bremmer was a State Dept driven disaster, showed that he was more interested in self aggrandizement than anything else.
At this point, I'm simply hoping for a major clean-up of the GOP and that all those 'moderates' leave the party. Let's first get a Conservative GOP, and within that, do what we can to ensure that that GOP is an anti-Islamic GOP.
Robert,
Keep up the great work. I have enlightened several friends about JihadWatch.
Now that we have a socialist in the White House, with terrorist ties, and the terrorists are dancing in their streets ... it just opens our eyes to how completely blind the American people are. The seedlings of the great society have bloomed and have deep roots. This was only about the poor blind and misguided Americans who voted for skin color and not character. They don't want to know what is behind the curtain because it would ruin the romance.
It's time to stop being the proverbial frogs in the pot of water thinking all is okay until the water boils and it is too late. Now is the time for us to again start trying to educate the completely stupid out there. I don't think it will be too hard when prices everywhere start skyrocketing and oil prices go through the roof, and most assuredly jobs are lost.
God Bless you, Robert. I'll stand right along side you ...as a part of what I call the faithful remnant; those of us who are willing to look the evil in the eye and call it what it is.
A perfect post to wake up to after a night like last night.
Dumbledoresarmy,
Thanks for your uplifting Irish song that can serve to refresh us all after a bad night for America and a good night for our enemies.
Robert,
You are a great asset to all free people of the world and particularily to us here in the United States. You are the "man with the pen" who transcribes and records all the Muslim attrocities directed at non-Muslims, Jews, and Christians while under obvious threat from Muslims and their sympathizers. Without this treasure trove of historical facts that you constantly present for opinion along with your inciteful analysis and review, we would be kept in the dark by our dishonest MSM, political leaders, and other possibly well intentioned but none-the-less dishonest people.
Abdullah Mikail,
You excellently present the false reasoning and facts of a bigoted and self-proclaimed superior people, the very same people that initiate the fighting and killing that we all read about here every day. You bring real life to the subject at hand. You are their point man with a knack (you will have to dig deep in your native language for the meaning of "knack") for talking past anyone who presents the facts to you. When you talk past Robert, you display your erogance and continued dedication to the Muslim goal of world domination and supremacy for all of us to see.
When I was a little tike (another word for you, Abdullah), I recall hearing conversations by WWII German Nazi sympathizers who were talking to non-Germans, and in all their arogance the Germans would talk past any legitimate argument that the non German would make. These Germans thought they were a "higher grade" of human than all the rest of us. Abdullah, you and they are one and the same.
Robert,
The enemy specifically seeks to blunt your well made arguments. We all know that you are way ahead of them. I look forward to your new book, "Stealth Jihad" that Abdullah Mikail was so helpful in promoting for you with his posts above. At some time, a tipping point in understanding all this will be reached in the USA. That will happen when we least expect it. Everything you do helps brings that day closer.
"To coin a phrase Americana “BFD”…"
Abdullah,
When one "coins" a phrase, he invents a new phrase. One cannot "coin a phrase" that is already in use.
ABDULLAH: "What do you say...topic is open...your ball, wanna play?"
RESPONSE: Absolutely.
We can return to our discussion of lapidation and amputation...and why you support such "quaint" customs.
How about the issue of death for apostasy; perhaps you can explain why you don't believe Islamic law mandates it.
Or, we could continue our discussion of the treatment of women in Muslim society...and how "progressive" it is by today's standards...(your offerings were so lame last time, it will be interesting to see how you'll reconstitute your argument).
Or, we could touch on the treatment of religious minorities in Sharia-ruled societies, and the Jim Crow strictures that, for example, outlaw the right of an infidel man to marry a Muslim woman, when at the same time a Muslim man is free to marry an infidel woman.
You remember Jim Crow, don't you bro?
Please begin...
Crap
Abdullah Mikail
What a total brainwashed idiot.
duh swami
Abdullah knows full well there are maybe 2.3 million Muslims in the U.S. Maybe even fewer. He is just puffing out his chest, trying again to "strike terror into the hearts of the enemies of Allah" (Qur'an 8:60).
Cordially
Robert Spencer
Posted by: jihadwatch at November 4, 2008 10:22 PM
So right.
Abdullard - I'm wondering why you don't go live in an Islamic country? Because they're savage, primitive, backward and oppressive due to Islam?
Yeah, that must be it. Abdullard the Hypocrite.
The 8 million muslim lie.
http://www.investors.com/editorial/editorialcontent.asp?secid=1501&status=article&id=253930273179676
To all the real men who died on the beaches of the South Pacific and Europe, I heartily apologize for my generation of idiots who literally handed our nation over to a Marxist.
My own Father was full of shrapnel until the day he died from a landmine.
I am glad he didn't live to see this day.
Sorry for the poor sentence structure above, I am hungover.
Near the end of that other gigantic thread (630+ comments) Abdullah Mikail wrote:
"Robert, this is the epiphany I had hoped you would experience. Yes, the majority of the Muslims in the US are not observant…only something like 10% actually attend the Masjids and pray regularly."
I'm confused as to what exactly he's trying to say here. Is he saying that only 10% of Muslims are the ones we should worry about, because the other 90% are so relaxed in their Islam and non-observant that they are not the kind of Muslims that Spencer warns us about? But then, Abdullah considers himself to be part of that 10%, so...!
Or is Abdullah saying that the Muslims we should worry about that Spencer is warning us about only come from the 90% of non-observant Muslims, and NOT the 10% who are the "true" Muslims...? So what's making the Muslims out of that pool of 90% do all these extreme things in the name of Islam according to their own statements, if they are so non-observant? If they are non-observant and ignorant of Islam, why would they bother to claim Islam as their motivation and goal? Why do they want a return of the Caliphate, if they are non-observant? Why do they want Sharia law, if they are non-observant?
I don't expect Abdullah to sort this out; I only expect him to try to muddy the sewage even more :)
Denver,
He's saying the former...and yes, it is cognitive dissidence.
Could someone please explain to me why 78% of American Jews voted for Obama. Did they think just maybe because of his Muslim background he could pacify the world of Islam and stop 1300+ years of jihad.
What little we do know of Obamas background, the bad company he kept(s)[socialist marxist ] and statements like (from his book) "I will stand with the Muslims should the political winds shift in an ugly direction," should be terrifying for Jews and especially for Israel.
The ugly political winds (understatement) have been blowing against Israel for 700 years [because] of Islam. I jus don't get it.
But what can we expect from voters after letting the likes of Bill Ayres using far left text books with half truths and politically correct lies teach our children. "Pre-programmed voters".
And how could anyone from Cuba or Russia vote for a candidate with socialist views ? Mind boggling.
Cesar Tort wrote:
Franklin D. Roosevelt did not see the communist threat and, with Churchil himself —not with Chamberlain!—, he was photographed beside Stalin. A monstruosity... but America and the UK woke up after that.
......................
Cesar, Churchill was in no way blind to the communist threat, and he *hated* the need for an alliance with Stalin. He simply believed that the Fascist Axis was an even greater threat, and that it would be difficult to beat without the Soviet Union's help.
I believe that history bears out the necessity of this alliance, no matter how morally repugnant it was. I believe that the possibility of a Fascist victory was the greatest threat to the world.
Of course, it is shameful that the war-weary Allies did nothing to prevent Stalin's seizing of Eastern Europe following WWII--but a Nazi win would have been even more horrendous for the world.
Robert,
This is your proof?
"You are claiming that Raymond is wrong in saying that Muslims are forbidden to have contact with dogs, and invoke your hunting dog and the halal meat it brings you"
Raymond is wrong in that respect as contact with dogs is not forbidden but actually allowed, as I pointed out.
Sorry Charlie, no door prize.
And on your blog you had a Geroge Washington Icon in the lower left hand of the home page that claimed "My blog is worth 24,000,000+ what's yours worth?"
I don't recall the actual number, but you are a Godforsaken liar for denying it wasn't there.
I saw it and I reported it with an approximation of the value lauded...I had no idea what the $24,000,000+ number stood for, but it was there.
Again, you have failed to prove a single thing I have said is false.
And yet the alcohol darura lie of yours is still in print, isn't it?
Truth
Abdullah Mikail
DenverRodeo,
I’ll use small words so as not to confuse you.
Robert watches the 90% and thinks, “This is what Islam is.”
Robert reads what I say and thinks I am not telling the truth.
Robert states “they (the 90%) misunderstand Islam just as I do.”
Bingo! Epiphany.
Andy questions?
Truth
Abdullah Mikail
Cornelius,
Good man.
Its your ball...choose one of your strongest arguements.
I will respond.
Truth
Abdullah Mikail
Abdullah
Getting rattled, aren't you?
And I pointed out that you were dead wrong, and that Raymond was right, with multiple quotes from canonical hadith.
Anyone can look at the link I pasted in above and see that. Doesn't being such a thoroughgoing liar just eat you up inside?
I never denied it was there. If you think I did, quote me. But it didn't say $24,000,000. It said $2,716,001, just $21 million and some change shy of your claim. I took it down yesterday during some housecleaning because I was looking over a lot of things and thought it looked silly. Anyway, what was it? It was some guy who looks at your site traffic etc. and puts a monetary value on it all.
Did it mean that I actually had $2,716,001, or that anyone was giving me that amount for doing this work, or offering to do so? No, it did not, and I really don't think you are so much of a dope as not to see that. You're just trying once again to do your intimidation thing that you think is subtle -- like your repeated legal threats, that you back off of immediately when I call you on them. In this case, the idea is that I'm some sort of profiteer. Sure. You should see the way I live (although I will do my best to see that you don't). Anyway, even if I were, would that mean that there is no jihad against the West? Once again, you're just ineptly attempting to divert attention away from the reality of the jihad. And once again, I am calling you on it and not allowing you to get away with it.
Certainly I did. See the link above, re dogs.
Abdullah, my friend, you can repeat this until doomsday and it won't change the fact that, as I have demonstrated several times already, what I wrote was entirely correct and accurate. It's interesting also that you cling to this weak reed about a small side issue as evidence of my ignorance or dishonesty or whatever, without even attempting to refute my central theses. But of course, you cannot do that. Anyway, remember: claiming victory is not the same as winning one. I have told you this before, but I don't mind reminding you.
Robert Spencer
Abdullah,
Please go play in the freeway or something. No one here believes you, and your conversation with Spencer is the same thing as Ali Eteraz' obfuscation about the gates of ijtihad being open. You're parading a minority Islamic opinion around in front of us and expecting us to take the bait, but we've seen this presentation before on numerous occasions with numerous other Islamic obfuscators. That's what makes it so easy to separate the Muslim truth from Muslim lies: Muslims ALWAYS lie.
"LOOKING BEYOND THE ELECTION (March on Washington)
Saturday, January 31 11:00 AM
(Tentatively) The Washington Monument (Washington, DC)
Obama say's "change comes not from the top-down, but from the bottom-up. The Million Supporters March on Washington is an event to dramitize the urgency... "
http://my.barackobama.com/page/event/search_results?orderby=day&zip_radius%5b0%5d=22309&zip_radius%5b1%5d=15&radius_unit=miles&country=US
Obama and Axelrod may be planning to try to keep Obama's organization together and continue fund raising right on through his presidency. They will have call ins to Congress like Fairus, Stein Report, NumbersUSA and others did to stop the amnesty bill. They will try to shut down Congress if it doesn't move fast enough.
Wow, Abdullah did exactly as I predicted -- he muddied the waters again!
*********
Robert watches the 90% and thinks, “This is what Islam is.”
Robert reads what I say and thinks I am not telling the truth.
Robert states “they (the 90%) misunderstand Islam just as I do.”
Bingo! Epiphany.
**********
Two problems with this "explanation":
1. Abdullah is implying that 90% of Muslims are prone to anti-social behaviors (through "misunderstanding" their Islam) and even the kinds of violence we see all over the world and which has threatened us and continues to threaten us. This implication contradicts other statements he makes that say there isn't any danger from Muslims worth worrying about.
2. Abdullah is also implying that these 90% of Muslims who disagree with him on certain things (alcohol, dogs etc.) unrelated to jihad violence, also disagree with him on jihad violence. Why would so many Muslims (millions, since it's 90%) who are non-observant about the important cultural aspects of Islam, suddenly turn around and become so fervent about supporting jihad violence?
I look forward to more mud and sewage. But that's ok, I have an efficient sewage treatment filtration system in my brain.
Abdullah,
A question, please Sir: When you decided you no longer wanted to live your life as a Free Man and willingly recreated yourself into a SLAVE of an ancient, Arabian pagan moon-god (who lives inside a cracked, shiny, black rock in Mecca that Mo liked to kiss and fondle), and to proclaim it to yourself and the world, you gave yourself the name, “Abdullah, slave to Allah” -- I always thought that the more-accurate name of this ancient, Arabian pagan moon-god was “Allan,” not “Allah.”
Shouldn’t your new slave name really be “Abdullan, slave to Allan?”
Please enlighten me.
"Anyway, remember: claiming victory is not the same as winning one. I have told you this before, but I don't mind reminding you."
Robert Spencer
There's Abdullah Mike's narcissism rearing it's ugly head again. He's got to claim victory to seem important. What I'd like to know is what is it that he did in his former Christian life that made him feel so guilty that he willingly accepted Islam to try and assuage his guilt?
Terror,
Isabella
Abdullah,
Let's start with the issue of apostasy, since it is perhaps the only expressed opinion you've made on these pages that could be construed as truly moderate and welcome...
You have stated that you don't believe in the killing of apostates.
Are you aware of the 5 Hadith with 5 different narrators, all quoting the Prophet as mandating the death of apostates?
If so, how do you reconcile the difference?
Cornelius,
YOu asked Abdullah:
"You have stated that you don't believe in the killing of apostates.
Are you aware of the 5 Hadith with 5 different narrators, all quoting the Prophet as mandating the death of apostates?"
Didn't you know? Only the 90% non-observant Muslims follow Bukhari.
Ruh roh Robert, wasn't everyone suppose to love us now?
MEDVEDEV: RUSSIA TO DEPLOY MISSILES IN RESPONSE TO U.S. MISSILE SHIELD
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,447204,00.html
Building the economy from the bottom up...
Dow Falls Nearly 500 Points
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/MarketTalk/story?id=6188161&page=1
...first you take it to the bottom, then, hopefully, you wise up.
Cornelius,
Any hadith you read ultimately must be understood in it’s proper context, and lacking that knowledge, you may return to the Quran what you understand from it and see if it passes that test.
Does the Quran support what is being said?
First off, since we are speaking in generalized terms, and these are pulled out of their context to try and show you a recurring theme…the picture is clearer if you understand the whole and can reference it in hadiths. Turn to the Quran and in what do you find on the subject of those who reject faith, in the Quran, what do you find?
Generally:
“Leave them to me.”
“…its not up to you”
Specifically:
Al-Anaam 6:112 “If thy Lord had so planned, they would not have done it: so leave them and their inventions alone.”
Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #256 “There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path.”
Aal-e-Imran, 3:97 “and whoever disbelieves (i.e. denies Hajj (pilgrimage to Makkah), then he is a disbeliever of Allah), then Allah stands not in need of any of the Alameen (mankind and jinns).”
Al-Anaam 6:110 “We (too) shall turn to (confusion) their hearts and their eyes, even as they refused to believe in this in the first instance: We shall leave them in their trespasses, to wander in distraction.”
There is more but I don’t want to weary you with quotes.
There is a hadith wherein the Prophet chastised a person for killing someone due to his “kufr” and asked him “Did you see his heart?” (Basically, how are you to know what he believes or what the future will bring for him?)
In a nut shell that’s a little insight into the reason that there is no penalty for personal apostasy.
When the hadith is relayed wherein death was commanded for some, there is no way to project that outside of the situation in which it was conveyed...that is why context is important...remeber the "Is it legal to shoot and kill someone with a gun in America?" question?
It depends upon context.
Again and again the Quran reiterates that it is not up to us to do anything with those who reject Islam, and God tells us “leave them to me”.
What shall we discuss next?
Peace
Abdullah Mikail
People - It speaks volumes that Abdullard doesn't live in an Islamic country.
It speaks volumes that Abdullard doesn't transport himself to Yemen or Jordan or Pakistan.
FRAUD ABDULLARD! YOU FRAUD HYPOCRITE!
Frankly, Abdullard doesn't have the cojones to live in a savage and primitive Crapistan!
Eh, Abdullard! Coward! LOL! You Hypocrite Coward!
Nice and safe here in the USA, eh, Abdullard? LOL!
Mohammed and Abdullah
Sittin' in a tree
The first says "Lie"
And the second one Agrees.
Somebody sure seems a bit Porky today!
Abdullah. Take your points to those "Brothers and Sisters" who swear to Allah that everything Robert says is the absolute, beyond a shadow of doubt, rock bottom truth.
Besides, as a Muslim, there is no compulsion on our part, to believe a single word you utter.
Prove your point to those who need the attention
They do not reside here.
Ladies and gentlemen
I believe it is time to ignore the Dementor in our midst.
When he speaks I hear only meaningless noise. I am reminded of the strange gabble that Dante encounters in Canto 7:1, from 'Plutus', and in Canto 31: 67, from 'Nimrod', in the Inferno.
Or of the effects of the judgement pronounced upon the guests at a dinner party of chattering traitors in C S Lewis's 'That Hideous Strength'...
'Qui contempserunt Verbum Dei, eis auferetur etiam verbum hominis:
They who have spurned the Word of God [i.e. of YHWH], from them shall be taken away also the word of man.'
As I read Mr Spencer's exchange with 'Abdullah', I am also reminded of a dialogue that takes place in C S Lewis's The Great Divorce, between one of the redeemed, and one who would be damned.
Here are the final words of the saint, which are very much like the words of Mr Spencer and of all of us non-Muslim here who refuse to accept the specious 'invitation' of Islam, be that 'invitation' couched in flowery words, or delivered at the point of the sword:
'I cannot love a lie', said the Lady. 'I cannot love the thing which is not. I am in Love, and out of it I will not go'.
If Abdullah does not turn back toward that which is, toward love, toward life - if he will not heed Mr Spencer's charitable warning (and I do not know about anyone else here, but when I read, repeated over and over, Mr Spencer's plea, indeed, his command to Abdullah to quit telling lies, I heard behind that plea the full spiritual authority of the Church Universal) - then in the end he will be swallowed up by 'the Islam', and there will be nothing left of him, of that human being who was once Michael McKay, but chose to turn himself into a thing, a slave of the war-god of the Arabs.
And here all this time I was going by what Mohammad said himself, that if anyone leaves his religion, kill him.
Abdullah/Mike, since your's doesn't have the same verses as everybody elses' you might want to get an updated Koran from a reputable source so you can quote intelligently. Robert can help you with that.
Menadacio,
Isabella
Cornilius you aren't the only one who misunderstands the death cult. It looks like, Mauritania, Afghanistan, Qatar and Yemen have lost they're magical islamic decoder rings. Seems for some reason they are confused, and made apostasy a capital offense. Maybe they're islamophobes.
http://74.125.95.104/search?q=cache:TNXb1QPETLgJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_capital_punishment_by_nation+countries+with+the+death+penalty+for+islamic+apostocy&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=ca
Well said, Dumbledoresarmy.
Abdullah,
First, let me state that your position on this issue - whether or not it conforms to Islamic jurisprudence - is certainly preferable than if you were a proponent of murdering apostates. But our discourse is to determine the truth.
As per your argument,
1) the verses you cite are ambiguous; it is not at all certain that 6:110 & 6.112 are referring to apostates; my take is that they refer to pagans who have rejected the faith from the beginning....3.97 does not seem to be relevant to the discussion; it is immediately followed by reference to the 'People of the Book' rejecting the so-called "revelations"...that leaves only the oft-cited 2.256.
2) 9.12 of the Quran clearly calls for making war on apostates.
3) All 4 schools of Sunni jurisprudence disagree with you sir and mandate the killing of apostates...
HANIFI:
If he needs time to reconsider, it is desirable that the judge allow him a three-day extension, during which he is to remain in custody. If he accepts Islam thereafter, it is good; if not, he is to be killed, for Allah says to "kill those who believe in many gods" (Sura al-Tawba 9:5), without fixing a deadline. The Prophet also said, "Kill him who changes his religion," without mentioning a delay, because the apostate is surely a hostile unbeliever and no asylum seeker (musta'min) who has asked for protection; furthermore, he is no dhimmi (a non-Muslim under Islamic rule), for no poll tax is demanded of him. Therefore, he should be killed without reservation.
SHAFI:
If the apostate repents, or utters the two main articles of faith (al-shahadatain), or confesses faith in the oneness of Allah (monotheism), he will be released. But if he does not repent, he is to be killed by the sword immediately. This punishment cannot be evaded, because apostasy is the most atrocious and severe form of blasphemy, and it deserves the cruelest judgment, which invalidates all of a Muslim's previous deeds. Allah says: "And for those among you who allow themselves to be led astray from their religion, and who die as unbelievers, their works are invalid now and in eternity" (Sura al-Baqara 2:217).
MALIKI:
If he repents after three days, he is to be released; but if he does not, he is to be killed on the third day, at sunset. His corpse is to be neither washed nor embalmed.
HANBALI:
There are two opinions on this issue. Some believe that the apostate should be given a period for repentance consisting of three days, while others are of the opinion that he is to be granted no time for reconsideration but should only be offered Islam. If he accepts the offer, he is to be set free; if not, he is to be put to death immediately.
4) However much you would like to spin the "context" of these Hadith, it is clear that this quote of the Prophet was not exceptional, pertinent to a given situation, but was meant to be applied as a general proscribing of apostasy, as it accompanies other violations of the Islamic ethos.
Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 83, #17
"Narrated Abdullah: Allah's Messenger said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Messenger, cannot be shed except in three cases: in Qisas (equality in punishment) for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (Apostate) and leaves the Muslims."
Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 83, #37
"Narrated Abu Qilaba: Once Umar bin Abdul Aziz sat on his throne in the courtyard of his house so that the people might gather before him....He replied "By Allah, Allah's messenger never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: 1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) 2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse and, 3) a man who fought against Allah and His messenger, and deserted Islam and became an apostate....
Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 84, #57
Narrated Ikrima, "Some atheists were brought to Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's messenger forbade it, saying, "Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire)." I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Messenger, "Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him."
Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 84, #58
Narrated Abu Bruda, "Abu Musa said.....Behold there was a fettered man beside Abu Musa. Muadh asked, "Who is this (man)?" Abu Musa said, "He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism." Then Abu Musa requested Muadh to sit down but Muadh said, "I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and his messenger," and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, "Then we discussed the night prayers .....
Bukhari, Volume 9, #64
Narrated Ali, "Whenever I tell you a narration from Allah's messenger, by Allah, I would rather fall down from the sky, than ascribe a false statement to him, but if I tell you something between me and you, (not a Hadith), then it was indeed a trick (i.e., I may say things just to cheat my enemy). No doubt I heard Allah's messenger saying, ‘During the last days there will appear some young foolish people, who will say the best words, but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for whoever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection.’"
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 260:
Narrated Ikrima:
Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "
Abdullah,
The body of jurisprudence and scripture is at odds with your interpretation. What is your explanation, that everybody else got it wrong and you got it right?
then in the end he will be swallowed up by 'the Islam', and there will be nothing left of him, of that human being who was once Michael McKay, but chose to turn himself into a thing, a slave of the war-god of the Arabs.
Posted by: dumbledoresarmy [TypeKey Profile Page] at November 5, 2008 7:56 PM
The islam swallowed him up long ago and spit out a
soulless, heartless muslim clone to replace Michael McKay. The clone has a new name, a new god, a new purpose and while he might look harmless, his thoughts and words are ominous. And he is a consummate liar and dissembler, more talented than most muslims because he used to be human, a distinct advantage that those born into the cult don't have.
People who convert to islam baffle me. How could a product of the enlightened, civilized, Western world renounce his humanity to join a medieval, predatory death cult that eschews morality and dictates malevolence? Only a sick mind would know.
Abdullah,
You wrote:
We reject Islam, but you won't leave us alone. Could this be due to your adherence to the other admonishments in the Quran and Hadith, such as strive against the disbelievers--in this case your jihad of the pen against Robert and the jihadwatch commentors?
Secondly, I think for this discussion with Cornelius, in the interests of clarity, you are going to have to give us your definition for "personal apostasy," and tell us how that differs from other forms, such as public expression, advocacy, and facilitation of apostasy.
ABDULLAH!
I suggest you read the Qur'an if you want to know what Robert
Spencer is talking about!! You want specifics? Try reading
these: Surah 9:5. Surah 2:191. Surah 8:12!!!
The book is full of specifics. Read up, fellah!
"in the interests of clarity, you are going to have to give us your definition for "personal apostasy," and tell us how that differs from other forms, such as public expression, advocacy, and facilitation of apostasy."
If Abdullah does that, he'll reveal the fact that that he DOES believe in killing apostates--the types of apostates who make a public nuisance of themselves by coming out of the closet and talking about their apostasy too much. So Abdullah will keep on NOT being clear, to fool whatever readers here may be stupid enough to buy his act.
Abdullah,
I can see you are quite busy with the above, so I'll forego the pleasantries of catching up. However, I believe that you still owe me an explanation regarding:
[Mohammad] then ordered to cut their hands and feet (and it was done), and their eyes were branded with heated pieces of iron, They were put in 'Al-Harra' and when they asked for water, no water was given to them." Sahih Bukhari, Ablutions (Wudu'), Volume 1, Book 4, Number 234
If I can recall the question: Do you justify Mohammed's actions above (i.e. dismembering, gouging eyes, leaving two humans to die of heat and thirst in the desert; that is, the actual acts independent of and irrespective of circumstances or context, as actions befitting a prophet of God? I'm referring specifically to the manner of capital punishment, not the fact of it. Should he have done it the way he did it?
Again, a simple yes or no, please.
Right, Ralph--building the economy from the bottom up, the foundation of Obamanomics. Reverse prosperity.
PANIC!!
Denver,
That's a very good point. My experience in debating Muslims is that they employ qualifiers copiously.
John the Baptist is the last prophet before Christ.
Warlord Mohamet is not a prophet and never was. He fooled ya, Abdullard, and you've fallen for it hook, line, and sinker.
Absent any further response from Abdullah on the issue of apostasy, I think my presentation would have overwhelmed his in any court of law seeking the truth.
Cornelius,
Assuming he has not been rightfully banned by his impertinent ungraciousness, incivility and latent hostility to our host, yes, silence speaks volumes.
I believe that Abdullah Mikail and his ilk are proof that reasoned argument is a purely western concept.