Indonesia expecting unrest after executions of Bali bombers

All Westerners should avoid ALL travel to ALL Muslim countries wherever possible. Find another vacation spot.

We get it Mr. Spencer, the vast majority are in fact not moderate.

I frankly dont understand this constant need to conflate extremists with the average indonesian who overwhelmingly despise the Jihadis. You also seem to forget that they are actually being punished by Muslims for their crime.

Mpayne1:

We get it Mr. Spencer, the vast majority are in fact not moderate.

I frankly dont understand this constant need to conflate extremists with the average indonesian who overwhelmingly despise the Jihadis. You also seem to forget that they are actually being punished by Muslims for their crime.

I haven't forgotten it at all. But if large numbers of people protest against the executions, and hardly anyone comes out in favor of the executions, wouldn't that cast doubt on your assertion that the average Indonesian despises the jihadis?

Of course, if the opposite turns out to be the case, I will duly note it here, with approval. But I can't help but notice that in the last few years we have seen in the Islamic world, including Indonesia, Cartoon Rage, Pope Rage, Wilders Rage, Rushdie Rage, etc. etc. etc., but no Bin Laden Rage.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

The religion of peace reacting violently?!

NO WAY!

"But I can't help but notice that in the last few years we have seen in the Islamic world, including Indonesia, Cartoon Rage, Pope Rage, Wilders Rage, Rushdie Rage, etc. etc. etc., but no Bin Laden Rage."

Speaks volumes, doesn't it?

Dear Mr. Spencer,

While it is true that Islamist movements are more organized and can therefore quickly mobilize their members for various protests, it does not mean that they represent anyone but themselves.

I think you'll acknowledge that Muslims protested against Islamists in Algeria, Jordan, Morocco and Turkey to name a few. I would add that Muslims are dying every day fighting the Islamists whether in Afghanistan or in Algeria, and that should be acknowledged.

I would agree of course that the overwhelming majority of Islamist group members (who number in the millions in Indonesia) are against this execution.

Best,

MP

Dear MP:

While it is true that Islamist movements are more organized and can therefore quickly mobilize their members for various protests, it does not mean that they represent anyone but themselves.

Fine. But it makes it all the more incumbent upon those Muslims who oppose them to mobilize and work to resist them, doesn't it? Otherwise they will win out unopposed, won't they?

I think you'll acknowledge that Muslims protested against Islamists in Algeria, Jordan, Morocco and Turkey to name a few.

Of course. You can find JW posts about those protests.

I would add that Muslims are dying every day fighting the Islamists whether in Afghanistan or in Algeria, and that should be acknowledged.

Just yesterday I put up a piece about attempts to resist the jihadists in Algeria.

But fighting for the pro-Sharia Karzai government against the pro-Sharia Taliban? That issue is not so clear.

I would agree of course that the overwhelming majority of Islamist group members (who number in the millions in Indonesia) are against this execution.

Quite so.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

I think you'll acknowledge that Muslims protested against Islamists in Algeria, Jordan, Morocco and Turkey to name a few...

Yes and those millions upon millions of protesting Mohammadans all waving anti jihad posters, and 'death to Al-Qaeda' signs, were just ignored by the press.

A sea of protesting humanity ignored.

Must be a Zionist plot...

duh swami

Some of those protests were against Muslims killing other Muslims. Most often, that is what has aroused Muslim ire against Al-Qaeda -- not their killing of non-Muslims. In Turkey, however, there were real protests against the Erdogan attempts to destroy Turkish secularism.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

I agree, but how many of those protest's were anti-jihad, anti-terrorism protests?

Those seem to be the ones the millions miss out on... :)

Maypayne1:

I frankly dont understand this constant need to conflate extremists with the average indonesian who overwhelmingly despise the Jihadis.

Have you been to Indonesia lately? Do you speak Indonesian? Remember it's an Asian and Muslim country, it is polite not to offend someone you don't know, so they'd answer according to what they think you'd like to hear.

I must say that your statement is incorrect. The ones who don't agree with what the jihadists have done, don't 'despise' the jihadists, they simply don't agree with the killing of Muslims. Whereas regarding the killing of others, or burning of churches, well ...... they just shrug their shoulders. Only very few people in Indonesia dare to voice their opinion in public, even so nobody of course has opined that the ideology that is Islam is inherently bad.

A lot of the Indonesians who are 'moderate', don't know much about what's in the Kuran, they only know what's been told them, which is just the nice parts.

When bringing books to Indonesia, I take the dust jacket off and bury it deep in the suitcase, afraid that my suitcase would be searched. Luckily so far so good. Yes, RS's books and Raymond Ibrahim's book The Al Qaeda Reader, among others, made it into Indonesia 'naked'. :-)

MP

At this point, the taquiyya is wearing thin. If jihadis are in such a minority in Muslim countries, why can't the vast majority of "moderates" just put a stop to their activities?

Or are you just waiting to see which side will prevail?

"At this point, the taquiyya is wearing thin. If jihadis are in such a minority in Muslim countries, why can't the vast majority of "moderates" just put a stop to their activities?"

They have, which is why these types of parties (i.e. Hizb uth Tahrir) are outlawed in most Muslim countries. This is why a lot of Islamists have moved to the west where they won't be persecuted. This is also why the algerian jihadist are forced to live in the Algerian maquis since they're not welcome anywhere. This is why the Uzbek Jihadis are in Waziristan and not in Tashkent etc.

Of course, for you this could all be one giant taqqiya operation especially when looking at your last sentence.

"Or are you just waiting to see which side will prevail?"

"Only very few people in Indonesia dare to voice their opinion in public, even so nobody of course has opined that the ideology that is Islam is inherently bad. "

Is that what they need to do now? if not they're with the terrorists?

"I agree, but how many of those protest's were anti-jihad, anti-terrorism protests?"

Id say those protesting against the Islamization of their country are most likely not supporting Jihad and terrorism wouldnt you?

I also get the feeling that if they dared do this, you would dismiss it as taqqiya.

MP

Of course not. But if they really abhor the jihadists and jihadism, they should say so.

Why is that too much to ask?

Cordially
Robert Spencer

"Of course not. But if they really abhor the jihadists and jihadism, they should say so."

My apologies Mr. Spencer, are you referring to Turkish secularists or another group?

As stated above, I think the actions I outlined above with regard to Algeria, Uzbekistan etc. speak louder than any words (which may be dismissed by some as taqqiya, something I find unbelievably absurd).

Best,

MP

MP

I am referring to peaceful Muslims in general.

I am not sure which specific demonstrations you're referring to in Algeria and Uzbekistan. The ones in Turkey I remember well and posted about here. Please send me some links about these demonstrations, and I will be able to comment.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

Demonstrations in Algeria 2007 (in french only):

http://tf1.lci.fr/infos/monde/afrique/0,,3432314,00-enorme-manifestation-contre-terrorisme-algerie-.html

In Morroco 2007 (in french only):

http://www.magharebia.com/cocoon/awi/xhtml1/fr/features/awi/features/2007/04/22/feature-01

As you know, Uzbekistan is an authoritarian state which doesnt allow the manifestations of any kind. My point was that the Uzbek islamists have no support there and had to relocate first to Tajikistan and then to Waziristan.

MP
""Only very few people in Indonesia dare to voice their opinion in public, even so nobody of course has opined that the ideology that is Islam is inherently bad. "

Is that what they need to do now? if not they're with the terrorists?"

I wrote that to mean that if you or any foreigner was told that an Indonesian who is pro jihad that they didn't agree with what the jihadists were doing, then it was because of that attitude. Or, it could very well be taquiya on their part, come to think of it.

Islamic ideology does call for the submission of non Muslims. If you're a non Muslim and don't think that is bad, well, you probably love to suffer in life, to be oppressed because of your non Islam religion. If you're a Muslim, especially a man, and don't believe that everybody has equal rights, of course Islam is the religion for you.

I didn't say anything that muslims who don't say that Islam ideology is bad, are terrorists.

I'd like to add that regarding the peaceful majority in Indonesia, I think I know more about it than you do.

Quite a number of areas have adopted sharia law, which originally they said would only apply to Muslims. Well, surprise, surprise, once it's under sharia, everybody is under sharia, muslims or not. You just don't see it in the newspapers here in the west.

And there are plans to impose shariah in other areas as well. It is slowly but surely getting non Muslims Indonesians in it's grip, and there's nothing the non Muslims can do about it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MP:

The first one begins:

"Une semaine après deux attentats islamistes qui ont fait 30 morts dans la capitale algérienne..."

So the occasion of the protest was the killing of 30 Algerians by the jihadists.

Here again is evidence of a point I make above, that Muslims have tended to protest against jihadists only when they kill their fellow Muslims, not when they kill non-Muslims.

In the Morocco story, it says: "Les participants à cette manifestation ont condamné les attentats terroristes des 11 mars, 10 et 14 avril dans la ville, et ont réfléchi à la réponse apportée à ce jour par le pays."

The March 11 attack was in an Internet cafe in Casablanca. The attacker had planned to target Casablanca's police and paramilitary headquarters:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/015641.php

The April 14 attack was near some American installations:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/016056.php

That is good, but the protest is still against jihadist activity in Morocco itself. The article about the demonstrations doesn't say anything about opposing jihadism as such, or the Islamic supremacist agenda.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

mpayne:
They have, which is why these types of parties (i.e. Hizb uth Tahrir) are outlawed in most Muslim countries

I believe early this year, or was it last year, Hizbuthahir had a rally in Jakarta, Indonesia, and it was reported that it was their largest in the world rally.

So much for the moderate Indonesians.

"That is good, but the protest is still against jihadist activity in Morocco itself. The article about the demonstrations doesn't say anything about opposing jihadism as such, or the Islamic supremacist agenda."

I would say that opposition to Islamists in one's own country is a clear sign that one is against Jihadi activity worldwide.

That being said I do agree that there is an urgent need for a "prise de conscience" among Muslim communities worlwide.

"I believe early this year, or was it last year, Hizbuthahir had a rally in Jakarta, Indonesia, and it was reported that it was their largest in the world rally.

So much for the moderate Indonesians."

No one's denying that there is support for these types of parties. I simply dont think its fair to lump all indonesians as radicals.

This should really be obvious.

MP:

I would say that opposition to Islamists in one's own country is a clear sign that one is against Jihadi activity worldwide.

Actually there is no necessary connection at all. The Qur'an forbids Muslims to kill other Muslims (4:92) but directs them to kill (4:89, 9:5, 2:190-193) or subjugate (9:29) non-Muslims. So a pious Muslim could easily deplore jihad attacks that kill Muslims while approving of those that kill non-Muslims.

If Muslims disapprove of jihad attacks against non-Muslims, they should stand up and say so.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

MP:

No one's denying that there is support for these types of parties. I simply dont think its fair to lump all indonesians as radicals.

No one is actually doing that. This should really be obvious.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

"I believe early this year, or was it last year, Hizbuthahir had a rally in Jakarta, Indonesia, and it was reported that it was their largest in the world rally.

So much for the moderate Indonesians."

I was referring to this post, Mr. Spencer.

MP

Saying "so much for moderate Indonesians" means that moderate Indonesians are doing nothing against the jihadists, not that they don't exist.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

"Saying "so much for moderate Indonesians" means that moderate Indonesians are doing nothing against the jihadists, not that they don't exist."

In either case, I completely disagree with the poster. Here is just one example - The Wahid Institute in indonesia which is trying to raise awareness of and promotes a moderate Islam.

They also do some interesting research, an excerpt:

"The Institute held a nationwide survey on Islam and terrorism last June, which produced interesting conclusions. First, despite incidents of religious-based violence in the past decade, most Indonesians believe that harmony among the nation’s different faiths remains strong. And while most Indonesians are aware of religious-based terror, 70.8 percent believe that it has ‘nothing to do’ with Islam as a religion. Most respondents thought the government should continue to regulate how followers of different religions interacted in society, while 63.3 percent disagree with the implementation of religious-based bylaws, including the shari’a at the regional level"

and

"Yenny Zannuba Wahid, director of the Wahid Institute believes that more effort is needed to combat intolerance and hardcore religious elements in Indonesia."

Here is the link (and a video interview with the director)
http://www.the-leaders.org/library/21.html

Best,

MP

Harmony among the nation's different faiths remaining strong? The non-muslim Chinese in Indonesia have been subjected to multiple incidences of horrid atrocities by muslim mobs over the years, one of the latest and worst being 1998, and have pretty much been browbeaten into giving as much 'harmony' as is required of them. They do not dare to speak up for fear of further repercussions. The rape victims did not even dare to come forward when the government offered to investigate the crimes, knowing full well that there was government involvement in the riots.

Then there were the atrocities against the Ahmadiyahs too - again lots of muslim mobs willing to rise up and inflict violence but where are the voices of the moderates?

So 70.8 percent of Indonesians (the vast majority of which are muslims) would tell you that religious based terror has nothing to do with Islam? What else would you expect, for them to actually admit that their poisonous ideology actually tells them to kill infidels? Come on!!!

Wahid Institute can go to hell as far as I'm concerned.

"Wahid Institute can go to hell as far as I'm concerned. "

For what exactly? conducting research?

One sometimes get the feeling that for some, those who do stand up to extremism are as equally if not more despised than the actual jihadis.

There's something very wrong with this line of thinking.

Ah, so I'm to be equally despised as terrorists for saying 'Wahid Institute can go to hell'? My saying this one sentence is as bad as blowing up a whole bunch of civilians?

Well let me rephrase myself then. I think Wahid institute's 'research' is nothing more than a thinly veiled attempt to whitewash the bad image of islam in Indonesia, based on what I said earlier.

I do not know if the Wahid Institue is connected to the political leader who once headed a large Muslim group in Indonesia. That Wahid had an interesting history, and moral development. A Muslim, he went as a young man to Baghdad for studies. There he met, and was befriended by, a Baghdadi Jew, one of the very last to live in Iraq. He took long walks with this man, talked to him often. This had a great effect on him, and cured him of the antisemitism (Islam version) he had formerly imbibed. It may well be that the Institute named after him is

MP:"In either case, I completely disagree with the poster. Here is just one example - The Wahid Institute in indonesia which is trying to raise awareness of and promotes a moderate Islam."

MP seems to have forgotten my previous posting and I quote here:

"""Only very few people in Indonesia dare to voice their opinion in public, even so nobody of course has opined that the ideology that is Islam is inherently bad. "

I still stand by that opinion.

Wahid Institute is doing what MP said in his post. They are still Muslims though, so of course they're not saying that Islam is inherently bad. If they did, then they would be going against Islam, or deny what the core Islam religion/ideology is all about, submission of non Muslims.

I don't see how one could be a true/pious Muslim and yet be of the opinion that everybody has equal rights, because those are two opposing views.

In my opinion, the person/organization who has actively pursued the moderation of Islam in Indonesia is Ulil Abshar Abdalla, founder of JIL (Jaringan Islam Liberal), or Liberal Islam Network. There website is below:

http://islamlib.com/en/

They have been actively holding seminars, discussions and written articles. But, they don't have much clout at all. In fact, if you read the comments on the articles they posted on the Indonesian sections, you'll see a lot of comments that disagreed with them, or that Islam should be the basis of the country, or something of that sort.

One article I can remember off hand that was written quite a while ago was that dreaming for a caliphate is absurd since (one of the reasons ) is that it has never been a success.

Well, from a Muslim point of view, that is probably fine and dandy, and modern, but from a non Muslim's point of view, that is skirting the real issue, which is, a caliphate opresses non Muslims.

Ulil is now studying for his master's degree in this great US of A.

Think how long the Indonesian government has taken to work itself around to perhaps - just perhaps - executing these three jihadists who arranged for the mass murder of non-Muslims.

Then read *this* story from the dhimmiwatch archives two years ago (posted article plus the comments - some, from at least one non-Muslim resident of Indonesia, quite informative)

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/013231.php

and compare the two cases.

Very instructive.

Mpayne1, the problem with Indonesians is patently Islamic. You blame everyone else for your own problems and wrongdoings. You couldn't even accept the fact that there is pedophilia in Indonesia when the pedophile imam story came out, as evidenced by the 3 pages of posts by Indonesians on Indonesia Matters blaming Israel, America, and the Middle East. You blamed the same people for the Bali bombing. You blame them for everything that is your own fault, your own problem, and your own failures, and caused by your own stupidity in Muhammedanizing yourselves. This is a patently Muhammadan sickness/immaturity/form of insanity, the need to blame others for one's own faults, flaws, failures, and wrongdoings, and the projection of it all onto those who aren't responsible, and Indonesians aren't even clever or remotely logical about it, just flat-out crazy in their inability to confront the truth. Islam breeds terrorism, just like it breeds pedophilia and female genital mutilation, but Indonesians deny that any of these things are endemic to Indonesia, when in fact they happen frequently, and every day in the cases of pedophilia and female genital mutilation - to 98% of your little girls, and when they have to face it they blame everyone else. If you want someone to blame, blame Islam and then blame yourselves for being so stupid, gimpy, and shortsighted as to let yourselves fall into the sick cult of Muhammedanism.

And also in patently Islamic fashion, Indonesians are patently supremacist, naturally in a crazy, backward, projected (Islamic) way. They claim that they view Middle Easterners as savage barbarians, while they slowly Arabize and then go through their ass-wiping, Jew-cursing, pledging-of-allegiance-to-Arabism, brain-washing session five times a day while they face Mecca and chant in Arabic. Hello? You can't be supremacist and believe yourselves to be better than them when you devote your lives to becoming them and work toward making your society just like theirs. Grow up, Indonesia. No wonder you couldn't possibly be less significant than you already are. Maybe you can deny and project yourselves into complete nothingness. That's the whole point of Islam anyway, isn't it? To simply cease to exist by acting as aberrantly, childishly, and insanely as possible, right?