Life TV: "Islam and the Arts"

379.jpg
Rashid and Ahmed

Life TV’s "Daring Question," hosted by Rashid and Ahmed, recently ran a show dedicated to examining “Islam and the Arts.” Rashid initiated the program by asking a simple and straightforward question: Would there ever have been a Bach or Beethoven or Mozart if they were born Muslim and raised in Muslim countries?

As typical with the show, Rashid asked the Arabic viewers the central question: “Is Islam against the Arts?” Viewers interested in responding call in and press one digit for yes, another for no. (Rashid went on to say that those interested in learning more about Christianity or simply looking for counseling can press digit X. He then added, somewhat whimsically, that those interested in calling to tell us to “burn in hell” can press digit, “May God forgive you!”)

The show began by depicting various video clips of prominent sheikhs and ulema, including Muhammad Hassan, Muhammad Zughbi and Hussein Ya’qub all condemning music and song from an Islamic paradigm. Ya’qub concluded his diatribe against song by saying “If the whole world approves of something, but Islam condemns it, that settles it. Are music and song forbidden? Yes they are—according to both the book [Koran] and Sunna. The matter is settled.”

Rashid’s colleague Ahmed next provided some of the Islamic texts that forbid music. He quoted from Ibn Taymiyya, who, in his Fatwas, asserts that all four madhhabs (schools of jurisprudence) forbid song and music—except during weddings and in the jihad (an odd dichotomy to say the least, and one recently alluded to by Hamas). He further quoted a hadith of the caliph Omar reportedly plugging his ears with his fingers whenever he heard a pipe being played, saying that that’s what Muhammad used to do, and thus eschewing music is “sunna.”

As a former Muslim, Ahmed discussed how he used to buy music tapes in the past, only to grow pious and throw them away, and then “as the dog returns to his vomit,” go buy more tapes. He explained how difficult it was for him as a Muslim, since he was naturally drawn to music, but simultaneously felt that he was sinning.

The hosts further stressed that the reprobate status of music within Islam has nothing to do with whether the music and lyrics are “good” (peaceful, glorifying of God) or not. They are evil in principle. Rashid quoted Bach saying that one of the most sublime aspects of music is to worship God: “So why does Allah forbid it?”

They went on to indicate that the Bible—both Old and New Testaments—is supportive of song and music. They offered anecdotes such as David singing and dancing for “joy in the Lord,” and offered textual evidence such as Psalms 33 and 150.

Ahmed indicated that when he converted to Christianity and began visiting various churches, his instincts were appalled at the free use of music in churches—drums and guitars even! He was very uncomfortable, and even sternly asked his Christian friends how they can worship in such a setting. During these early church visits, all that came to his mind were certain hadiths of Muhammad condemning musical pipes, saying they are instruments of Satan, as well as a Sahih Bukhari hadith asserting that Allah’s angels cannot come near those who have dogs or bells around them.

Here, Rashid freely, and somewhat sheepishly, admitted that during his life as a Muslim, he was very much fixated on this question of angels and bells: whenever he wanted to sin, he used to wonder if he could just ring a bell, thereby dispersing the angels who would not see and record his transgressions. He used to wonder if he could perpetually defy the Angel of Death by wearing a bell around his neck. Later in life, with the ubiquity of the cell phone, he began wondering if angels were fleeing in panic all over the globe; it was then that his doubts about Islam became severe.

Ahmed added an interesting reminder: for all the condemnation bells receive in Islamic tradition, Muhammad himself used to say that Gabriel’s “visitations” to him were preceded by the sounds of loud bells. If angels fear bells, and Gabriel was supposed to be an angel, how is it that his visitations were announced by, of all things, bells—Satan’s instruments?

Next Ahmed and Rashid briefly moved to the concept of pictorial art, which even most non-Muslims are aware is forbidden. Again, they depicted several videos of prominent ulema discussing pictures. Muhammad Hassan said that hanging a simple portrait of anything live, say, a beloved family member, is tantamount to shirk (polytheism, idolatry), and is seen in Islam as a form of worship, according to both Bukhari and Muslim (al-Sahihin, the “two authentic”). Hassan said angels cannot enter homes containing pictures. The sheikh then added quite dryly, “And don’t tell me how we are living in the modern era, that it shouldn’t matter, etc.—repent and istaslam (resign yourself).

Here Rashid expressed his sympathy for angels: “I pity them, truly; anything makes them flee.” He then asked the (predominantly Muslim) viewers: "If the two angels that accompany us to record our deeds are always fleeing, does my entering a concert hall full of portraits mean that I can sin with impunity?"

Thus all pictures—minus mandatory ones, such as licenses, passports—are forbidden, even simple vacationing pictures. The hosts said that other ulema allow certain pictures, provided these are intentionally situated ignobly, such as on the floor (perhaps Saddam’s famous portrait of Bush on the floor was meant to be both offensive but also in keeping with Islam?).

Near the close of the show, viewers called in; some tried to protest. The hosts, however, kept asking them to explain the jurists’ decrees regarding Islam and the arts, as well as the hadiths mentioned throughout the program. They were unable to respond, opting instead to make much noise, accusing Rashid and Ahmed of “distorting,” to which Rashid burst out with, “Due to the inherent problems of Islam, every Muslim today wants to tailor-make their own Islam, prohibiting and permitting only those things they agree to!”

At the close of the show, the polls of the original question—“Is Islam against the Arts?”—were revealed: 84% said yes, 16% no.

Posted by Raymond on November 1, 2008 4:00 PM | 82 Comments
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82 Comments

gymgal | November 1, 2008 4:24 PM

“If the whole world approves of something, but Islam condemns it, that settles it. Is music and song forbidden? Yes they are—according to both the book [Koran] and Sunna. The matter is settled.”


Tolerance?

No wonder they're all so cranky.

tanstaafl | November 1, 2008 4:27 PM

This program sounds like a hoot. It's a shame it is not translated into English.

darcy | November 1, 2008 4:31 PM

If there was only Islam, there would be no Arts.

End of story.

Ian | November 1, 2008 4:31 PM

Interesting to note that the Muslims who phone in react exactly as Mr Spencer records in most of his talks.
First deny,
When confronted with evidence they cannot refute,
shout loudly

CasparTheFriendlyGhost | November 1, 2008 4:50 PM

Raymond,

Thanks for bringing this effective counter-push to everyone's attention.

But all the shows (and the web site) need to be translated into English, then posted on YouTube, etc.

I hope Jihad Watch figures out a way that we can contribute to make that happen.

Keep up the great work.

ebonystone | November 1, 2008 4:53 PM

In painting, it's only the depiction of living things -- i.e. humans and animals -- that's forbidden, isn't it? Wouldn't paintings of natural scenes like canyons or waterfalls or coast-lines be o.k? How about works like Monet's paintings of his garden, or of Rouen Cathedral in different lights?

tanstaafl | November 1, 2008 4:58 PM

Ebonystone - I don't know whether I would chance it.

darcy | November 1, 2008 5:04 PM

In painting, it's only the depiction of living things -- i.e. humans and animals -- that's forbidden, isn't it? Wouldn't paintings of natural scenes like canyons or waterfalls or coast-lines be o.k? How about works like Monet's paintings of his garden, or of Rouen Cathedral in different lights?

Posted by: ebonystone at November 1, 2008 4:53 PM

No. Islamic Art is ALL non-representational.

And I can assure you, they especially wouldn't have a Cathedral painting.

Ken CleanAirSystem | November 1, 2008 5:08 PM

Absolutely barking mad.

flowerknife_us | November 1, 2008 5:30 PM

Can you possibly imagine the kind of racket they need to make watching porn?

PMK | November 1, 2008 5:45 PM

But why is anyone who is not a Muslim bound by the dictates that are in the Koran?

Islam doesn't like the arts. Pity Muslims. That doesn't give them the right to destroy OUR music.
There wasn't a Bach or Beethoven in Islam but there WAS in Christendom. There was also a Michaelangelo and Raphael. The Renaissance took place in Europe not in Islamdom.

How can Muslims anywhere claim to be tolerant of others when they would destroy the history of others?

(rhetorical questions, all)

pismopal | November 1, 2008 5:47 PM

" Due to the inherent problems with islam...."


No shi- Sherlock!

Hugh | November 1, 2008 6:00 PM

Examples of what could never have been produced under Islam:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/018887.php

Hugh | November 1, 2008 6:00 PM

Examples of what could never have been produced under Islam:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/018887.php

DenverRodeo | November 1, 2008 6:07 PM

"At the close of the show, the polls of the original question—“Is Islam against the Arts?”—were revealed: 84% said yes, 16% no."

84 to 16% -- this might be a more realistic breakdown of "radical" (84) vs. "moderate" (16) Muslims. In fact, pretty much the exact opposite of the breakdown Daniel Pipes pulled out of a hat.

kamala | November 1, 2008 6:13 PM

From appendices in the Reliance of the Traveller, which "conforms to the practice and faith of the orthodox Sunni Community" (as certified by al-Azhar University in 1991), pp958-959.

('Abd al-Ghaffar 'Uyun al Sud:) One should realize that the prohibition of picture making is extremely severe, that it is counted among the enormities, and the threats against doing it are very emphatic. Bukhari and Muslim relate that a man came to Ibn 'Abbas (Allah be well pleased with him and his father) and said, "My livelihood comes solely from my hands, and I make these pictures. Can you give me a legal opinion about them?" Ibn 'Abbas told him, "Come closer," and the man did. "Closer," he said, and the man did, until he put his hand on the man's head and said: "Shall I tell you what I heard from the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and give him peace)? I heard the Messenger of Allah say,
"'Every maker of pictures will go to the fire, where a being will be set upon him to torment him in hell for each picture he made.'
"So if you must, draw trees and things without animate life in them."
And Tirmidhi relates that the Prophet (Allah belss him and give him peace) said,
"On the Day of Judgment, part of the hellfire will come forth with two eyes with which to see, two ears with which to hear, and a tongue with which to speak, saying, 'I have been ordered to deal with three: he who holds there is another god besides Allah, with every arrogant tyrant, and with makers of pictures.'"
And Bukhari, Tirmidhi, and Nasa'i relate the prophetic hadith from Ibn 'Abbas,
"Whoever makes a picture, Allah shall torture him with it on the Day of Judgment until he can breathe life into it, and he will never be able to."
ZenaWarriorPrincess | November 1, 2008 6:16 PM

"hanging a simple portrait of anything live, "
it seems hammas, hez boys have no trouble putting up pictures of their leaders and those martyred islamists at funerals etc. guess they are going to hell anyhow lol

Vee | November 1, 2008 6:19 PM

No art? No wonder they're as dry as the desert that spawned Islam.

Eastview | November 1, 2008 6:21 PM

"At the close of the show, the polls of the original question—“Is Islam against the Arts?”—were revealed: 84% said yes, 16% no."
From the story.

I just checked the stats. It is now 93% said yes, 7% said no.

You can check them, too, by:

1. Going to their web site. This brings up the web page with the poll, in Arabic.
2. To get an English translation, right-click in a white space, go to "Page Info" and on the fly-out click on "Translate page into English".
3. In the left panel at the bottom you will see the poll question "Are the teachings of Islam stand against the arts? (sic)"
4. Pick one of the responses (yes or no) and then submit.
5. A page in Arabic will then come up with the stats about the results.

Cornelius | November 1, 2008 6:29 PM

This wonderful program can be seen as quite subversive from the viewpoint of a rigidly pious Muslim.

QUESTION: Why would Muslim governments allow such a program to be beamed into their countries?

Kinana of Khaybar | November 1, 2008 6:35 PM

Raymond,

Thanks for this informative narration. This 'Daring Question' show with Rashid and Ahmed seems like an excellent idea.

DenverRodeo and Eastview,

For comparison, an estimated 74% of Egyptian Muslims want sharia law strictly applied, according to a World Public Opinion Survey.

p. 21. “Most respondents express strong support for expanding the role of Islam in their societies, a view that is consistent with the goals of al Qaeda. Large majorities in most countries—an average of 71 percent (39% strongly)—agree with the goal of requiring ‘strict application of Shari’a law in every Islamic country.’ Pakistanis were the most enthusiastic with 79 percent agreeing. About three in four Moroccans (76%) and Egyptians (74%) also agreed. Indonesians showed the lowest support: 53 percent agreed and 40 percent disagreed.”

Country: strongly agree, somewhat agree = total

Morocco 35, 41 = 76%
Egypt 50, 24 = 74%
Pakistan 54, 25 = 79%
Indonesia 17, 36 = 53%
Average 39, 31.5 = 70.5%

Source: Muslim Public Opinion on US Policy, Attacks on Civilians and al Qaeda. April 24, 2007. WorldPublicOpinion.org

Eastview | November 1, 2008 6:40 PM

"QUESTION: Why would Muslim governments allow such a program to be beamed into their countries?"
Posted by: Cornelius

They probably would try to prevent it if they could, but it's pretty difficult these days when there are more transmission channels available than are provided just by broadcast TV (e.g., Internet, satellite).

kgordon | November 1, 2008 6:52 PM

Hugh,

Quite right, these things are all haraam.

But, then, so are:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8vQVnZo7_0

(and they don't just do this at weddings)

and:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjfH8a8wDOU

The first is a dance found throughout the Middle East, from Turkey to Palestine and Irag, but has become a symbol of Palestinian nationalism, the second Umm Kulthoum, a symbol of Arab nationalism, for whose funeral more people turned out than any political or religious leader can expect.

Islam is against many things which are important for most muslims. I'm sure most of the 84% who said Islam is against the arts listen to and enjoy music. Good for them to begin thinking how much real Islam would impoverish their lives. Muslims, like everyone else, pick and choose what they want from their religion. I've even known muslims who drink tell me this is allowed in Islam. Well, of course it was, until the relevant verse was abrogated.

PMK | November 1, 2008 6:56 PM

Slightly OT:

My (ancient) computer prevents me from viewing it but a video has been put out where Muslims in America are apparently discouraged from voting, claiming participating in American elections is unislamic.
That might be the best proof yet that Obama is not a Muslim. If voting is unislamic what about running for office in America?

http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD209908

Hugh | November 1, 2008 7:10 PM

HARAM:

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/BRGPOD/33525~St-Francis-of-Assisi-preaching-to-the-birds-Posters.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/10/Madonna_del_parto_piero_della_Francesca.jpg


http://www.arthistory-famousartists-paintings.com/images/stsebastian2francesca.jpg


http://www.collezione-online.it/flagellazione.jpg


http://moderato.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/cranach.jpg

http://z.about.com/d/arthistory/1/7/I/5/11_n_MonaLisa.jpg


http://www.aiwaz.net/uploads/gallery/ginevra-de-benci-943-mid.jpg


http://www.webexhibits.org/colorart/i/michelangelo-creation-adam-.jpg


http://www.toscanaviva.com/Firenze/david_michelangelo.jpg


http://www.romaviva.com/Vaticano/michelangelo-pieta.jpg


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0c/Hieronymus_Bosch,_Garden_of_Earthly_Delights_tryptich,_centre_panel_-_detail_6.JPG


http://www.italica.rai.it/argomenti/storia_arte/giorgione/galleria/5.jpg


http://www.phil.uu.nl/staff/rob/2007/i/velazquez-las-meninas.jpg


http://virgo.bibl.u-szeged.hu/wm/paint/auth/rembrandt/self/rembrandt.1661.jpg


http://creatisphere.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/rembrandt.jpg


http://artmodel.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/jan_vermeer_van_delft_007.jpg


http://www.essentialvermeer.com/catalogue/young_woman_with_a_water_pitcher.jpg


and so on, right up to this:

http://ftp.ccccd.edu/andrade/WorldLitII2333/Images/picasso.avignon.jpg


and this:

http://www.groupanalyticsociety.co.uk/assets/images/matisse.jpg


and this:

http://aerawrite.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/balthus5golden20days1.jpg

Hugh | November 1, 2008 7:19 PM

That there is some singing and dancing, of a most limited and monotonous kind, in the Muslim lands, no one denies. But this is as nothing compared to the riches not only of the West, but of non-Western but non-Muslim societies. Oom Kulthum -- who got her start in a very different Egypt, still basking in the Yacoubian-Building atmosphere created not only by the British, but by all the non-Muslims (Jews, Italians, Greeks, Armenians) who were then, soon after Nasser and Naguib and the other colonels undid Farouk and the ancien regime, steadily made unwelcome, their property sooner or later nationalized, and they themselves forced to leave.

The RAI singers assassinated in Algeria, the wedding-singers murdered in Afghanistan, the bombings of music stores in Gaza (yes, the place where the "refugee camps" have DVD stores), all testify to what happens when the most true-blue believers, of whom there will always be more than of the other, lapsed or indifferent kind (it's a lot harder to maintain one's indifference in a Muslim society, where the texts and tenets are all on the side of Enforcing The Rules As To What Is Prohibited, And What Demanded), to whom you refer.

No one could seriously maintain that the creation of music, the performance of music, the significance of music (whether sung in church or mosque, or outside both), are comparable in non-Muslim and in Muslim societies. And the same thing is true for art, for sculpture and painting. And for free and skeptical inquiry, without which the enterprise of science is not possible.

These pathetic exceptions prove...well, you know.

Hugh | November 1, 2008 7:45 PM

Of course, songs have been written and sung non-Muslim others, sometimes with that song based on a seemingly Muslim motive or subject-matter, but it is really only a pretext, as in the following song by the once-famous Georges Milton:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTtqkDoo4I0

Eastview | November 1, 2008 7:58 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjfH8a8wDOU may be respected within the Arab world, but from a musical perspective it is pathetic compared to Western music. Listen to it carefully, and you will notice the almost complete absence of harmony. Every one of the musicians plays the melody.

With a hat tip to Hugh and his selections, I would offer the following, also haram, works as being at least equally deserving of defense against the idiodic stance of Islam regarding art.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4g3v_h3_sU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQVeaIHWWck
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7-rx1gcy2I&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejXPcv9MS7s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sU4mgkGtrs&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mfq1-0feaCQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipzR9bhei_o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yhd-dpC_7o&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWpV7L4YHuU&
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGPPDV8wBOQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvm2ZsRv3C8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJLK_eEcZ9s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEAEcca9pRkfeature=related

I'd include Shastokovich's Seventh, written during the German Siege of Leningrad, and Messiaen's "Quartet for the End of Time," in the list, too, but readers can track them down for themselves.

Take out the harmony of any of these works and leave in only the melody, then maybe add a drum, and you get an approximation of ME music.

No culture in the world, none, has produced music that comes anywhere close to the magnificence of music created in the Christian West.

And when the churches and cathedrals in Europe are shuttered or turned into mosques, will the music also be silenced?

Eastview | November 1, 2008 8:08 PM

The last link in my post above was malformed. It should have been

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEAEcca9pRk

ebonystone | November 1, 2008 8:09 PM

O.k, how about the theater? Is there any drama or comedy from the Moslem world? Logically, I would guess not, since it's a form of representational art. It just uses real people, instead of pigments on canvas, to represent the characters of the play. I know I can't think of any Islamic drama.

km | November 1, 2008 8:09 PM

OT But important

Possible Iranian Nuke test?

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/128151

Eastview | November 1, 2008 8:26 PM

"Possible Iranian Nuke test?"
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/128151
Posted by: km

Uh, oh. Let's hope not. This would be very, very, very serious. Anyone else hear any non-Israeli confirmation reports about this?

jdamn | November 1, 2008 8:36 PM

PMK, he's doing what he has to do to conquer the Great Satan. The Muslim Brotherhood, the "bring Sharia to Egypt" people, runs in parliamentary elections in Egypt. Jamaat e Islami's plan in Pakistan is to totally assume power and then go (more) dictatorial, a` la Hugo Chavez.

Ebonystone, there is drama in Egypt, much of it public-service type stuff, which is big throughout most of Africa, and they have dancing and "music" too. The quotes are because, as I understand it, the broadest, most generoud definition of "music" is a series of sounds which keep time and pick a key and run with it, and it does neither, and then it has Arabic cat-vomiting/goat-strangling on top of it. Like everything else Islamic, it's absolutely retarded and aberrant. Compare that to the beautiful music of the southern Sudanese who absolutely rock with nothing but vocals and stuff to bang on, no real instruments. That was one of the more striking things I noticed in 'Sudan: the Hidden Holocaust,' that these refugees with no instruments and no training could make the most beautiful, and even quite sophisticated, music. It's every bit as good as Black American gospel, even without the organs and other instruments. I have to wonder if the Copts ever had a gospel tradition. Egypt used to be quite a lively place. One more victim of Islamic genocide, I imagine.

But, as Egypt becomes Islamized, which it will in full force after Mubarak, it will be like the way Abul Kasem described the Islamization of Bangladesh. The theatres were the first places to get blown up. It was not Pakis who did that. It was Bengalis after the Holocaust.

PG | November 1, 2008 8:51 PM

Maybe Moslem Sudan is different? Art galleries, wth representational art, and wonderful, wonderful music, quite thumping stuff too, especially in the buses, no-one complaining. There has been the introduction of many Western instuments in recent decades, and I found the music so inspiring I brought a lot of it back, and especially love the "Madeeh" (Sufi) music; very jazzy. ("You wouldn't want to know what the lyrics were, though," said a Christian Sudanese friend, and I am sure she is right.)

Maybe the people are so fed up with war, and they have had a taste of Sharia, which thoroughly disgusted them, and they refuse to suppress their creativity.

But I have never met a Moslem person who didn't like music in any case. Maybe I don't get out enough...

jdamn | November 1, 2008 9:06 PM

I don't know about Darfur, but the rest of "Muslim" Sudan is Arab. There's no music. There's no evidence of a soul of any kind.

Gorgon Zola | November 1, 2008 9:10 PM

YAAAYYY!!!,,I just got banned from LGF for quoting
Robert Spencer,,,

Mr. Spencer, I have followed your site several years and have found it all scholarly and substantiated.

Max Publius | November 1, 2008 9:13 PM

Islam itself is performance art--the few oppressing the many. The few are the clerics, the many are both average muslims and non-muslims. We are caught on the self-perpetuating stage of Islam's dead founder whether we want to be or not.
http://www.bravenewsworld.blogspot.com

farside | November 1, 2008 9:19 PM

My opinion of Music in Islam can be found here:

http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Farsideology

Enjoy,
Farside

Gorgon Zola | November 1, 2008 9:30 PM

re:possible Iranian nuke test, Bibi assembling his crew:(Debka)

November 1, 2008, 4:25 PM (GMT+02:00)
Likud leader Binyamin Netanyahu off to a fresh start?
"Energized by more than two years in opposition, Binyamin Netanyahu plans to contest the February 10, 2009 general election at the head of a remodeled Likud party and a new star-studded leadership. The new assets he is angling for include Benny Begin, Yair Shamir, Dan Meridor, Moshe Yaalon and Nathan Sharansky. Netanyahu believes that with former chief of staff Yaalon as defense minister and Meir Dagan and Gaby Ashkenazi in place as Mossad director and IDF chief, his government can cope with Iran’s nuclear challenge."

Eastview | November 1, 2008 9:45 PM

Gorgon, do you have a link for the Bibi story? Thanks.

dumbledoresarmy | November 1, 2008 10:17 PM

Raymond - thanks for making available that excerpt from 'Life TV' - hilarious (the guy reminiscing about how he used to visualise Islamic 'angels' fleeing all over the place at the sound of ringtones), profoundly sad, and...terrifying, in its evocation of the miserable impoverishment of the soul that the jihadis fully intend to impose upon all five billion or so non-Muslim humans on the planet.

I'll share it with my 18 year old artistically-gifted son (currently studying Visual Arts at university) and with my 15 year old daughter (whose ambition in life is to be in musical theatre, and who will be studying music, dance, drama and singing in Year 11 next year).

It should bring home to them, as nothing else would, the clear and present danger that jihad and sharia present to them, personally.

MarisolJW | November 1, 2008 10:32 PM
Rashid quoted Bach saying that one of the most sublime aspects of music is to worship God

The specific quote from Bach defines music as "harmonious euphony for the glory of God and the instruction of my neighbor."

Indeed, had jihadists conquered Europe (noting that Bach was born in 1685, just 2 years after their defeat at Vienna), there would be no Bach as we know him. If he managed to eke out an existence as a church musician, he would have been reviled by authorities as a sinner at best and a criminal at worst, his legacy suppressed as jahiliyya.

One can't help but wonder what might have been in other places where the jihadists succeeded -- not just in the arena of Christian worship, or even music, but for all creativity and inquiry.

Gorgon Zola | November 1, 2008 10:36 PM

Eastview,,here's the link

http://debka.com/article.php?aid=1364

profitsbeard | November 1, 2008 10:42 PM

In Islam, creativity is considered a challenge to the jealous Allah.

You must just grovel and adore only
It's works, and not try to achieve anything similar in nature or stature.

Allah can't stand thinking, acting, inventing creatures.

So he created Mohammad.

The sterile echo for the Id.

Tiled away safely in a mosaic of geometric hypnosis.

I'm surprised the Mohammedans didn't try to ban Language as an affront to Allah.

And have the world reduced to safe silence.

(But, then, the Koran would have had to have been considered a work of Art, and destroyed, too.)

duh_swami | November 1, 2008 10:51 PM

If Allah does not like music and art, why does he create so much of it?

MarisolJW | November 1, 2008 10:59 PM

Duh Swami--

Exactly. Why create the overtone series, which turns any hollow pipe or tightened string into an alleged occasion for sin?

Pythagoras' episode with the "harmonious blacksmith" and his ringing hammers is said to be apocryphal, but if the story had been co-opted for advancing sharia, he would have told the blacksmith, "Hey, knock it off!"

PG | November 1, 2008 11:07 PM

Jdamn, I don't want to argue for the sake of it, but the Sudan is full of music. I find it puzzling to hear that Islam is anti-music - over there I heard music all the time, and there was nothing dirge-like about it.

But I consider the fight against Islam to be many-faceted. One way of fighting it is to encourage Moslems to free themselves, and encourage them to explore their creativity and to question their faith and the soul-destroying aspects in it. Just look at "Life TV" and the good job it is doing.

I have been trying to persuade friends in Sudan that their problems lie as much with "Islam" as with "the government". Mind you, I don't have much of a platform, but every bit helps, I think.

If there are some Moslems who have broken away, then of course there are others with the potential to do so. Don't give up!

gymgal | November 1, 2008 11:20 PM


Rock the Casbah The Clash.

Now the king told the boogie men
You have to let that raga drop
The oil down the desert way
Has been shakin to the top
The sheik he drove his cadillac
He went a cruisnin down the ville
The muezzin was a standing
On the radiator grille

Chorus
The shareef dont like it
Rockin the casbah
Rock the casbah
The shareef dont like it
Rockin the casbah
Rock the casbah

By order of the prophet
We ban that boogie sound
Degenerate the faithful
With that crazy casbah sound
But the bedouin they brought out
The electric camel drum
The local guitar picker
Got his guitar picking thumb
As soon as the shareef
Had cleared the square
They began to wail

Chorus

Now over at the temple
Oh! they really pack em in
The in crowd say its cool
To dig this chanting thing
But as the wind changed direction
The temple band took five
The crowd caught a wiff
Of that crazy casbah jive

Chorus

The king called up his jet fighters
He said you better earn your pay
Drop your bombs between the minarets
Down the casbah way

As soon as the shareef was
Chauffeured outta there
The jet pilots tuned to
The cockpit radio blare

As soon as the shareef was
Outta their hair
The jet pilots wailed

Chorus

He thinks its not kosher
Fundamentally he cant take it.
You know he really hates it.

A song ahead of it's time apparently ;o)

dumbledoresarmy | November 1, 2008 11:26 PM

Follow this link to find a complete web catalogue of ALL the known and attested paintings by Rembrandt.

http://staff.science.uva.nl/~fjseins/RembrandtCatalogue/index.html

You can look at them all.

And that's just *one* Western artist...

That's just one of the reasons why we're in the counter-jihad.

That's one of the reasons why we don't want Europe subjected to sharia.

jdamn | November 1, 2008 11:40 PM

PG, it's about Islamization, fundamentalism, and Arabism. Think about it. Sudan, for one thing, is the last country to be Islamized, and it will likely be the first country to be un-Islamized. I honestly believe that God is on the side of the Christians there because their broke, rag-tag militias easily defeat the real, well-funded (all that UN money goes to jihad, you know) army and they do it easily whenever they're in conflict. The army has been said to run away from the Christian militias because they appear white, shiny, and glowing. The Islamists gain ground because they bomb the Christians' structures, but they don't defeat the people so easily. I'm digressing, but anyway, Sudan is not completely Islamized and that's the reason why there's still some semblance of a soul there.

Remember the controversy over dancing in not-too-Arab-but-Arab-enough Morocco a couple of weeks ago? It's a matter of degree. It's kind of like ALi Sina's description of the Indian Muslims vs. the Pakis. One would think that the Pakis would have more of a solidified identity and culture, but it's just the opposite. They're Arabizing and Balkanizing, which is the inevitable result of Islamization. They come to hate who they actually are, their real culture. The Indian Muslims, on the other hand, have their own culture, their own music, their own cuisine, and it's distinct from that of the Bengalis, the Sikhs, Punjabis, etc. But in Pakistan there's no indigenous music anymore. There's not even a cuisine. It's Arab food, which doesn't actually exist because "Arab" cuisine is entirely stolen from the Greeks, the Turks, and the Phoenicians. There is no Pakistani identity anymore, but there was once upon a time. There's hardly even an Arab identity. What solidifies it except for language?

There is no Arab culture outside of poetry, and that's only because Arabic is a pursuit unto itself and it has little to do with provoking thought or inspiring insight. It's about phonetic and orthographic acrobatics. It's shallow as a kiddie pool, in that it comes out as meaningless garbage when it's translated, which is why Persian poetry is often translated but not Arabic poetry. It's not worth it. There's no Arab music. There's Egyptian music and Muslim Sudanese music and Indian Muslim music, but that's all in spite of Islam and as the Muslim world becomes more radical and more fundamentalist, the last remnants of Muslim culture are disappearing because they have no place under real Islam, under Sharia. Remember the stories about the vibrant Afghan culture with the music and the dancing and how the Taliban suppressed it when they came along and imposed the real Islam? That's how it works.

These Sudanese Muslims of which you speak, were they black or were they Arab? In nations like Senegal or Kenya, where Muslims are still minorities, Muslims take part in music and drama and other cultural manifestations, but that's because of the non-Muslim population, just like Egypt was a much more cultural and soulful place back when there were more Christians and Jews and foreigners, and Christians weren't persecuted and living under apartheid.

Islam kills everything that's worthwhile. No wonder they're so obsessed with sex. It's all they have. It's the be all, end all of existence to those losers. My cats have more going on than that and they're indoor cats in a 2-room apartment.

Eastview | November 1, 2008 11:44 PM

Gorgon, thanks. I wish Bibi well.

BTW, more info about an alleged Iranian nuclear test can be found here. There is a link in the story to Google Maps that shows the location of the test. Zooming in, it appears to be completely deserted even at the highest resolution - no roads in or out, no evidence of any buildings, no infrastructure at all. Very suspicious. Not at all what one would expect for a nuclear test site.

Compare this against the situation at the U.S. Nevada Test Site (Mercury, NV, storage, administrative and staging area (36.659N, 115.996W); Frenchman Flat, where the above ground tests were performed up to 1962 (36.798N, 115.929W); Yucca Valley, where the underground tests were performed (except for tunnel tests) - each of the hundreds of craters along the 10-mile valley floor is from a single test (37.113N, 116.056W); and finally, since you're in the area, the famous Area 51 (37.241N, 115.815W).

I don't see ANY sign of activity at the location in Iran the above story links to. Even taking into account the comparatively primitive program the Iranians are likely to have, there is still a fair amount of infrastructure involved with one of these tests, so I wonder if the lon/lat in the link are in error.

dumbledoresarmy | November 1, 2008 11:53 PM

PG - the Sudan has not, in fact, been Islamised for very long.

And I think that trying to ban music, in Africa, would be like King Canute trying to stop the tide coming in.

(However: I wonder if any musicologist has been brave enough to try to compare the vocal and instrumental music of the Islamised regions of Africa, for example, of Mali, Niger and Northern Nigeria, or Somalia, with the ancient and modern music, sacred and profane, of the Copts and the Christian Ethiopians, or the music, traditional and contemporary, of Christian and animist West Africans in, say, Ghana or Benin or Cameroon, and of Christian and animist Nigerians and Christian and animist South Africans?

Such a study, or series of studies, might be...interesting. If it has not already been done..go to it, all you African Studies students and academics out there! Any Afro-Americans reading this? Get cracking! Let's have a full-scale study comparing music in Islamified Africa, to music in non-Islamified Africa (whether Christian or animist).

And, looking beyond Africa: for any Sephardi and Mizrachi Jew who happens to be reading this - how does the traditional song and dance of, for example, the Jews who escaped from Yemen and North Africa, compare with that practised by the Muslims of those regions?

Question for Coptic and Assyrian lurkers and posters who may read this: how does Coptic and Assyrian Christian sacred and profane music compare with the folk song and dance of the surrounding Muslims?

jdamn | November 2, 2008 12:52 AM

I've actually been watching a lot of Luo church services for a school project I'm working on. It's great stuff. They have Catholics, Copts, and Evangelicals, and the music is just amazing. They language lends itself well to song, kind of like Spanish and Italian, because they're all very vocalic, as opposed to say, Hebrew or Arabic, which simply don't work as well. It's different from the Sudanese gospel, which is more harmonic and less rhythmic. I've never looked into Jewish traditional music much and don't know much besides Klezmer, which is fun. It would be interesting to see what kind of traditional music the Falashas have.

bee | November 2, 2008 1:24 AM

Just so your readers know the full extent of what is haram in islam when our leaders cave into these morons and we are all living under sharia, Photogaphs are on the forbidden list, also mirrors. Laughing in public is forbidden, so no telling jokes. music is frowned on in Saudi Arabia, although there are many shops selling pirated music all over the middle east, usually labelled 'holiday' music as Christmas is a dirty word, but they like our money. No public displays of Christmas decorations are allowed in Saudi Arabia and once when visited Dubai, festooned with Christmas decorations, they were promplty removed from all malls as the dreaded ramadan had started, and so it goes on unless we in the West wake up before it's too late. Glad I'm getting old.

leo.nadis | November 2, 2008 2:08 AM

Thanks Raymond for the excellent information. In the future, would it be possible to include reference numbers to the hadith citations so that us readers can use them during conversations with our wayward friends?

Eastview | November 2, 2008 2:23 AM

"I've actually been watching a lot of Luo church services..."
Posted by: jdamn

Would that by any chance be the Luo tribe of East Africa, in the region of Kisumu/Lake Victoria in Kenya, the tribe of Barack Hussein Obama's father?

staringattheview.blogspot.com | November 2, 2008 3:12 AM

At staringattheview.blogspot.com I've begun translating a few of the interviews on Al Hayat TV, and will continue doing so as I have time. I began with the question that got a 60 million pricetag on the head of Father Zakariya - who was the fahter of Muhammad.

sheik yer'mami | November 2, 2008 4:05 AM

Just discovered that the video with Zacharia Botros is "no longer available". If somebody saved it in another format please e-mail it to me or post it on my blog:

http://sheikyermami.com/2008/03/30/coptic-priest-zakaria-boutros-exposes-the-philandering-muhammad/

PG | November 2, 2008 5:40 AM

Jdamn and dumbledoresarmy: Thankyou for your thoughts on this matter.
If the Sudan will be the first to be un-Islamised I want to be there to help!
Ill-health meant that I was stuck for quite some time in Khartoum, which is why I was exposed to the Islamic culture (reluctantly). I was struck by the politeness and poetic charm of the Moslems, but I could not fail to notice an often uncharitable attitude to the southerners and a barely concealed distaste for Christianity. It was on my second trip there that I really discovered the music. Even the Dinkas loved the Sufi music. But the hymns were lovely in the churches, old-fashioned hymns.
The Arabised Sudanese have a weak grasp on the loyalty of the general population, something John Garang was aware of. Nubans, Nubians, all Islamized, are clearly not convinced of the legitimacy of Moslem rule.
In the south, people listen mainly to Zairean music, or Dinka and other local music. Sometimes you hear Islamic music.
The Somalians are conspicuous in the south, which is a worry, and they are not liked.

Kinana of Khaybar | November 2, 2008 6:13 AM

staringattheview,

Thanks. I appreciate that transferring the spoken word into text can be a time-consuming process. And from your transcript I now know the specific question Zakariya asked that led some Muslims to put the 60 million dollar bounty on his head.

PMK | November 2, 2008 7:11 AM

PMK, he's doing what he has to do to conquer the Great Satan. The Muslim Brotherhood, the "bring Sharia to Egypt" people, runs in parliamentary elections in Egypt.

jdamn,
That's my impression but then why are Muslims anywhere in the world telling Muslims in America NOT to vote? This is their chance at jihad. Why would they deliberately silence themselves?

kamala | November 2, 2008 8:52 AM

starringattheview,

Thanks for taking the time to translate... very interesting.

Here's a direct link for people:

http://staringattheview.blogspot.com/2008/10/who-was-father-of-muhammad-part-2.html

Hugh | November 2, 2008 9:08 AM

Those who click on the link given in the post just above, as I did, will not be disappointed.

jdamn | November 2, 2008 10:30 AM

Hi Eastview,

Yeah, the Luos are the tribe that Obama's father was from. They're Christian and Muslim. They used to be all Christian. They live mainly in Uganda and Kenya. My field methods consultant/informant is a Christian Kenyan Luo. It's a beautiful language. I'm doing my final project on the church services. I'm Jewish, but I attended a Catholic high school and I've gotta say, be they Evangelical, Catholic, or Coptic, the Luos have it all over any (white) church service I've ever seen in America. Their gospel music is pretty much the same in all 3 churches, though. There's a lot of it on YouTube. It's very vibrant, but the Luos are considered to be like the Texans of Africa in that everything they do is over-the-top, bigger-than-life. They're fun, and even the Muslims aren't very Islamized at all, but they don't have music like the Christians. Still, there's no comparing them to the Hausas in Nigeria. There's a Muslim Luo guy who's in 2 of my 3 classes, and, while it would be unfair and irresponsible to generalize about an entire people based on this one guy, he's nothing like the Egyptians and the Jordanian and the Persian in my department, who do everything they can to make themsleves intolerable at every juncture. This guy is very kind and gets along with everyone. He asks intelligent questions and makes intelligent comments in class, rather than dragging it down like the other Muslims. He doesn't have that typical Islamic wall of narcissism that precludes any sort of genuine interaction with anyone else either. He's also concerned with the impact of Arabic on his native Swahili, so he's not a true Muslim anyway in that he hasn't surrendered to Arab surpemacy.

PG, I would love to know more about your time in Sudan. The Arabization is a fairly recent phenomenon, at least the extent to which Arabs have taken over the government. Khartoum used to be a very cosmopolitan city and now it's just Arab through-and-through, and I get the impression that it has been for a while, since they knew that Bin Laden and Al Qaeda were hiding there after the embassy bombings and they harbored him anyway. If you want to know more about supporting them, Father Hammond's ministry is all over that. You can check him out at Frontline.org.za . I highly recommend his books 'Slavery, Terrorism, and Islam' (the book everyone cites for stats as to what happens with each incremental increase in the Muslim population in a land), 'Faith Under Fire in Sudan,' and his 3-documentary DVD with 'Terrorism and Persecution: Understanding ISlamic Jihad,' '3 Days in Sudan,' and 'Sudan: The Hidden Holocaust.' You can also buy a 3-docuemntary called 'Israel: a Nation is born.' Father Hammond is my hero. He's at the forefront in the fight against Islamization in Sudan. He lives with refugees and helps organize them into militias against the North. They are some of the most devout Christians I've ever seen. Whether or not that's because the ministry sustains them, or because that's how they always were, or if it's because their lives are rough and they rely on faith to see them through and to help them defeat the enemy, I don't know, but they are my heroes, just the most noble people on this planet as far as I'm concerned. The SPLA and the SPLM are the main militias who fight against the Arabs. As I stated above, they never cease to be amazed how easily they are able to defeat their opponent, who often just run away in fear. I haveto believe that God is looking out for them and helping them out as much as possible. But the problem is that the UN, along with BP and a bunch of other corporations, fund the bombing that takes place and the Arab government doesn't pay their soldiers, so they make their money Islamically: through raiding, looting, and enslaving, and they take the land. It's horrible. But Father Hammond is your man if you want to help. Just buying the books and videos helps. It's probably the most worthwhile charity in the world. God bless them.

PMK, as for the not voting thing, you're unarguably correct that voting is very un-Islamic, but the general concensus among the slow jihad Muslims is that for now they should work within the system. The fact that it made news that that MSA guy came out against voting demonstrates that he is far off-center. He also got very few responses on the MSA site, not that most MSA members are citizens anyway. There are still very few 2nd-generation Muslims in America. The majority are illegals, those on student visas, and prison converts, so I'm not even sure who they were targeting with that message. The Muslim Brotherhood is the #1 opposition party in Egypt, just like Jamaat e Islami was democratically elected in Pakistan, just like HAMAS was democratically elected in "Palestine" and the West Bank. The Muslim Brotherhood got their start working within the system and that's how they continue to work, but it has also always had splinter terror/front groups who opt for the fast jihad. It's a 4-pronged approach: democratic slow jihad (e.g., Obama in America, Jamaat e Islami, and Ikhwan in Egypt), fast jihad through their terror groups (HAMAS, Al Qaeda, PIJ, etc.), demographic jihad (see Europe), and stealth jihad through other front groups like CAIR and NAIT who try to impose sharia incrementally, who dissimulate on behalf of jihadists through PR, and who try to infiltrate law enforcement and intelligence. They're covering all their bases. As long as there is any degree of civility in the Free World then working within the system is their best bet, which is why Islam, or at least political Islam, should be made illegal.

duh_swami | November 2, 2008 10:35 AM

Those who click on the link given in the post just above, as I did, will not be disappointed.
Posted by: Hugh

You were right...once again...

jdamn | November 2, 2008 10:42 AM

I forgot the thank staringattheview for transcribing that. Transcription is a pain and it's time-consuming. Bless your heart for doing that and I look forward to seeing more (nudge, nudge). There may be someone who would even be willing to pay you for that.

Vee | November 2, 2008 12:15 PM

Oh, my God; a day's worth of cliking on links & absorbing in information in the posts on just this one story. What was that about a comparison between LGF & JW again?!

Farside, thanks for your site. I'll go back whenever I need to laugh at Islam. I especially enjoyed the bit about "Yusuf Islam". Wonder if he's seen it...

Eastview | November 2, 2008 12:18 PM

jdamn, thanks for the extra info about the Luos. I taught school in the area (Maseno School, about 30 km NW of Kisumu) many years ago, during the time of Jomo Kenyatta. The school was predominantly Luo, but there were a number of other tribes, especially Kikuyus, as well, which caused a lot of intertribal strife among the students.

The tribal music in the region was not particularly noteworthy, as I recall, since there were very few instruments, but their celebrations were nonetheless quite memorable. Where they excelled was in rhythm, especially percussion. A stick hitting a board, a nail on a triangle, a wash board, clapping the hands, all provided easy opportunities for striking up an often amazingly complex tapestry of sound involving a few or a few dozen participants. Sometimes there was dancing, sometimes also singing. The effects were often quite haunting and hypnotic. The local religion always mystified me, seeming to me at the time to be an amalgam of Christianity and Animism. My stay there was cut short by medical problems, and I had not yet learned enough about Islam to be able to detect its presence, but would love to go back to visit with new eyes.

Eastview | November 2, 2008 12:35 PM

staringattheview, yes, very interesting, indeed. Thank you.

jdamn | November 2, 2008 2:09 PM

Hi Eastview,

That's definitely the impression I get of the Coptic Luo services: that they are very heavily influenced by Animism. The music isn't all that different, I guess because the other churches incorporated the traditional stuff into newer-style services. Coptic Christianity has been there forever, as has Catholicism, but the Catholic services are more constrained, but still far less boring than Catholic services I've been to in America and Italy. I also get the impression of the Sudanese Christians that their services and music are heavily influenced by Animism, which would explain quite a bit about the Muslims and music there too, since Islam edges its way in in many places by purporting itself as being compatible with traditional (tribal) society. Jihad/Arabs or no, it will eventually be Arabized in Darfur like it is everywhere, but since it's a relatively new Muslim population it naturally retains many of its traditional practices.

FM | November 2, 2008 4:17 PM

—“Is Islam against the Arts?”—were revealed: 84% said yes, 16% no.

I think this poll indicates the truth: Islam at its core has always militated against music and fine arts (plays, musicals, humanist paintings, etc.) except mostly martial singing to encourage jihad. This is only natural since good music & art inspire the shunning of evil and encourage a feeling of brotherhood among all mankind.

There is no better confirmation that Islam is at bottom a great evil than this rejection of music & art.

Coaltaxopeuh | November 2, 2008 4:47 PM

Rashid and Ahmed are doing a very nice job: they are trying to cure Muslims of Islam (sickness)!

God bless them and cure all Muslims of their islamic sickness!

PG | November 2, 2008 4:56 PM

Dumbledoresarmy, IF ONLY there was an African department at university. There is nothing here (Victoria). All "African" study has been absorbed into "Development Studies"!

jdamn, Actually, the war has meant that Khartoum has many southerners living there, and they are relatively bold in what they wear and so on. There are Syrians, Greeks; all kinds of people. And I met all kinds of Moslems; mainly "Arab" ie mixed black/Arab, but also Nubians, who are a quite different shade of brown. Everyone who is not "Arab" is discriminated against, as well as those who refuse to join the army.
I was asked to join the SPLM!
In May I am returning, and going to the south. Thankyou, I will definitely look up Father Hammond and read his books. Also I will go and see live music, including in a place where a "returnee" has made a name for himself with "reggae fusion" music, in Khartoum.
Meanwhile, you might like to hear this:
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7cVVW_etqw
This version is not as good as the one on my cassette (no CDs there!) but very nice, I hope you will agree.
Keep the music, I say, and scrap the religion!

herself | November 2, 2008 5:20 PM

Wow, I missed that video from October with Sana on it. I am so happy I got to see it. It really touched me. Thank you so much.

greaticon | November 3, 2008 7:45 AM

Islam, Art and Archtecture its a real joke. Whatever architecture there is in moslem world was created by Infidels. Once the disease of Pigislam is contacted Art, Architecture, and Music disappear as the people in its contact become retards. Infiedels are not allowed to express their skills lest they are considered superior to the mohammedians.

Muhammed was a freak of nature, and the its followers are retards to listen to his sayings.

have_mercy | November 3, 2008 4:48 PM

The Question about Coptic and Assyrian Music.


In Egypt, traditional Coptic Music is purely liturgical as Coptic has been a dead language for a few centuries. However, the Assyrian language is very much alive and there is Assyrian music from Iran and from the Diaspora. It sounds like Persian and perhaps Turkish music to some extent. I was not really impressed by it. However, Church services in Aramaic is quite heavenly though some Churches use Arabic.

I am quite partial to the Coptic liturgical Music which is a great though many times it lacks performers who can do it justice.

American | November 5, 2008 2:58 PM

Dear tanstaafl,

You Said "This program sounds like a hoot. It's a shame it is not translated into English." - Posted by: tanstaafl

Have you heared of http://www.memritv.org/ They translate, very accurately, clips like this one. Unfortunately, these translations cost lots of money. If enough people were to contribute (donate) to http://www.memritv.org/ they are qualified and best suited for these kinds of translations.

Please urge more people to visit Memeri TV and enjoy what they have already translated, thousands of clips with subtitles. If Memri TV were to receive enough visitor damands and some donations that would facilitate expanding their translations to possibly include lengthy translatins like this or they could give a good summary and some punch lines...