The spectral Chertoff
The same old tired line from the same old tired Chertoff, even as he eases out the door. Consider: while Muslim and non-Muslim spokesmen have spilled oceans of ink since 9/11 asserting that Islam condemns "terrorism" and the killing of "innocents," without defining what is meant by either term, no one has ever produced any examples of authoritative and orthodox Islamic religious scholars rejecting, on Islamic grounds, jihad violence against non-Muslims; rejecting the idea that Sharia law should be instituted in the Muslim and non-Muslim world; and teaching the idea that non-Muslims and Muslims should live together indefinitely as equals.
Got any such examples? Send them to me at director@jihadwatch.org. But I have asked many times before. This moderate, peaceful, pluralistic Islam is the great unicorn, the Santa Claus of public policy, that everyone believes in but no one has ever actually seen.
"'As one threat fades, another may come in,'" from USA Today, December 18:
Q: Who is the war on terrorism against? Is it al-Qaeda? Is it the tactic, which seems impossible to eradicate? Or is it Islamic radicalism?A: What we're confronting is an ideological conflict with an extremist world view that I don't think is an accurate representative of Islam, but uses the language or hijacks Islam for an extremist agenda. It's an ideology that's reflected in al-Qaeda, and it's reflected in Lashkar-e-Taiba, which everybody now knows because of (the Mumbai attacks). That is the struggle, and unlike the Cold War victory, I don't think there's going to be a wall that comes down. It will be a process of using hard power to strike back at the leaders and using soft power to change the breeding ground where people try to recruit.
People in positions of authority should stop issuing declarations on true Islam. The more they try to speak on the wonders of Islam the more they stray from the non-establishment of the First Amendment and into da'wa.
If you remove the "or hijacks" from this sentence and replace it with "of", he almost gets it:
"...uses the language or hijacks Islam for an extremist agenda..."
Funny how that "language of Islam" always produces conflict against the non-Muslims to establish a Muslim ruling class and sharia law. Not to mention the eternal internecine conflict in places like Saudi Arabia, Iran, or Pakistan (to name a few) as the 'purest' Muslims declare takfir, shirk, fitna, or "defamation of religions" and kill their 'brothers'.
Apparently this man knows nothing about the Quran. It says in Arabic or English that he is an infidel, ready for death.
The Quran said kill all non-Muslims and maybe he is a honorary Muslim and he thinks that they will not cut his balls off and sell him for a $1. Well his eyes will pop out if he aCTUALLY READ THE qURAN AND SAW THAT mUHAMMAD ACtually had sex with a little girl who was playing with dolls.
SOMEBODY HELP AMERICA! THIS MAN LOOKS DENSE. He talks nonsensical! Does he ever say anything that makes sense! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
If he loves Islam after reading that blacks are cursed then he is a racist!
Sigh ........!
We will not with this kind of willful ignorance attitude.
Unless the west recognizes Islam as it really is, we will not be able to make laws to combat Islamic terrorism, which is a product of the ideology as stated in the Koran.
Oops, meant to say "We will not win with this kind of ignorance".
Is it just an “extremist agenda”, or is there something about "traditional Islam" that makes it an extremist ideology?
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/020897.php
If it really is just an extremist agenda taking advantage of an inherently peaceful faith, wouldn’t we expect, based on relative world populations of Christian and Muslim believers, something closer to 15000 violent acts justified on the basis of Christian texts and traditions since 9/11?
Given the effort expended by Western media to convince its audience that both religions have the same problems, it’s difficult to believe they would have overlooked reporting some of these Christian extremist attacks… had they been happening.
If both religious ideologies are inherently peaceful, how do you explain the discrepancies?
If the underlying cause of the problem is not addressed, aren’t we just handing the problem to our children?
Yes...Yes, we hear this BS all the time, but why is it that they do not mention the 1000s upon 1000s killed by these Jihadis? All the leaders from India to Europe to the US say Islam is hijacked. I really do not give a damn about weather it is hijacked or not I care about those who have been killed by Islamic Jihadis. What are you doing to help the victims of Islamic Jihadis, what has been done to recognize the police, firemen and ordinary non Muslims women, men and children slaughtered by these Islamic Jihadis. The Jihadis have not hijacked anything they are doing exactly what they are supposed to be doing.
It is the rest of the world making excuses and overlooking the facts that the Islamic world is sponsoring these acts of Islamic Jihad and that non Muslims are expendable, as long as we chant Islam is hijacked. It is pretty sick.
Okay, fine, but I do think it's an accurate representative of Islam.
Do you think either opinion means much to a believer? I don't. Both our opinions have the same weight in the Islamic world. If a group or gaggle of imams or some Sudden Jihadi has a different opinion and self-identifies it with Islam, then we should take advice from Sun Tzu and Stephen Coughlin. Believe what your enemy tells you. If they say they act for Islam, then we must take them at their word.
Islam is a funky organic network of ideas. It's decentralized and has been even at the height of the Ottoman Caliphate. No one gets to say what Islam is and what it's not. No one really has any authority over it. That is one of the problems that will plague us even if it's beaten back into the dark corners for a while.
Take them at their word until an organizing force from within Islam actually renders them 'wrong.' Any opinion on what Islam 'is' and what it 'isn't' is a waste of time coming from the likes of Cherthoff, me or anyone else out here. If a guy or a group say they're doing something according to the true Islam, they are. We all know it's about as tight as a cargo net and as consistent as a RSA passcode token.
Someone ought to send him an e-mail with a few verses from Mein Qurampf, such as Suras 9:29 (maybe the whole Sura 9 would be even better), and mention in bold type that the violence against infidels that it incites has been an implicit sixth pillar of islam since that book of hate was put together by a deranged mass-murderer and desert pedophile.
Not that damn "hijacked" line again!
Is it too much to as for a different excuse from time to time?
Once again an official who holds one of the most important positions to defend this country and yet he cannot take a little time to open the Quran and read what it says.
Yee gads!! how the heck are we going to deal with this ideology when we have ignoramuses like Chertoff calling the shots at Homeland Security?It is downright scary. Not to mention that he and his team have all the resources in the world to draw knowledge from and he makes idiotic statements like that.
One can't help but tire of these continuous demonstrations of ignorance about the tenants of Islam.
KNOW YOUR ENEMY AND KNOW HIM WELL IF YOU WANT TO DEFEAT HIM!
General of the Armies
Douglas MacArthur
This is the same man who just said regarding the Obama inauguration: "We're also looking at the possibility of a lone wolf. At that doesn't necessarily have to be a terrorist from Al Qaeda, it can be a right-wing, crazy nut who decides that they because of racism or some other reason they want to carry out an attack."
See, only the right-wing nuts are racist. They're also the ones associating Islam with terrorists, those nuts.
Last I looked, it was the fascists and anarchists in every single trouble spot on the face of the earth.
And who are the people talking about race at every turn? The left, of course.
But, no, some stereotypical Klansman is going to be the real problem.
**IF** islam is being hijacked (well, I know better - islam is islam and muslims are muslims) then... WHERE IS THE OUTRAGE FROM THE SO CALLED 'PEACEFUL ONES'??!!
I mean they certainly figured out how to get out on the streets and make signs to 'hate Jews', or 'hate the West', or 'islam will dominate', etc. AND they certainly found their mouths when they celebrated the deaths on 9/11, the UK, and elsewhere - or when cartoons were drawn.
I think that the term 'leader' is not what it used to be. Any old moron, or young moron, can just go out and flap their cake holes and think that they are the experts now!
I don't think he believes what he is saying regarding terrorism and Islam. I suspect he knows the truth but has decided it is not useful to abandon this fiction, in the hope many moderate Muslims will continue to believe it.
The fiction for public consumption probably has no real affect on his prescription for the use of hard and soft power. How would Government public abandonment of this fiction improve the situation? As long as policy makers know the facts and base their use of power on it, I'm not convinced the public discussion of the Islamic motivation for terror does any good.
Tom: I wish to understand you correctly. Are you saying that whether American or Western government officials declare Islam, all of Islam, good or bad, it won't really affect how they act? That what counts is what they privately think?
Tom:
Over the past several years since 9-11 I have also used your argument before in attempt to defend some of oue elected,or appointed leaders when they made these same comments in regards to things like Islam is the "religion of Peace", yes we heard that from President Bush, and Condeleeza Rice in the early stages after 9-11. My thoughts where that they used these dhimmi comments to avoid not branding all Muslims as being radical. Unfortunatly these same leaders are still making the same pronouncements today and quite frankly they don't carry water for me anymore; I say;" call a spade a spade" and cut the PC,multicultural crap!
Tom is a mystic! He knows what's really going on, even without any evidence!
"The enemy of my enemy is my friend".
"Keep your friends close but your enemies closer".
"Know your enemy and know him well to defeat him".
These sayings from different men in different times all still hail true. IF Islam is radical(and I have no doubt that it is) then we should be prepared to war on it. If it is peaceful where are its defenders. I will tell you where in Iraq and Afganistan shooting and blowing people up.
I have been in the Middle East for several years (over 5) and in different countries there. I have seen jihad in many forms and ways. I have also seen "radicals" or "extremeists" of every nation, and religon killing in the name of "GOD"or "Allah".But none so worthy of the title of radicals more than these "peaceful jihadists".
And for those of you who doubt I was a Special Ops officer for nearly twenty years. GOD BLESS AMERICA!!
How you can tell radicals from non-radicals? Non-radicals exhibit one or more of the following behaviors or characteristics
(1) Pay 300,000 speaking fees to former presidents
(2) Hire former DHS Secretaries consulting or security firms
(3) Invest in Citigroup
(4) Receive bailout money by some indirect pathway not well understood outside of those who receive NSA wiretaps
(5) Donated to a former presidential library
(6) Are friends of Rezko
(7) Pay for scholarship, grant, endowed chair or other aid at a university, think tank, or other appropriate entity
(8) Have been on American TV as a friendly
(9) The police, FBI, military, etc. have used as a consult, go between, helper, hostage negotiator, or other convenience
(10) Possesses non-public information about the establishment.
Every phrase is colored with a PC hue. This in my estimation is because of a bias of church state separation thinking.
This view assumes that religion or faith belief's are benign and equal. They have no value or weight in world affairs and are generally discounted. Because of this view anything spiritual is thrown under the bus and some other motive is attached.
As long as these blind leaders have power we will not fight the correct enemy and waste huge resources trying to change what is spiritual at a material level.
Thousands of missionary's would be more effective that ten thousand soldiers. Note I did not identify the belief system, just that it is not Islamic.
TOM: "How would Government public abandonment of this fiction improve the situation? As long as policy makers know the facts and base their use of power on it, I'm not convinced the public discussion of the Islamic motivation for terror does any good."
1) The assumption here is that policy-makers actually DO know the facts; by all accounts, this is not the case, otherwise we would have an intense program of religious profiling and mosque-bugging
2) The second fallacy is the presumption that an honest airing of Islamic intolerance would somehow radicalize Muslims. Tom would prefer us to remain in public denial, in the hopes that pretense will eventually transmogrify into reality
As Robert Spencer has asked countless times, from where will the impetus for Islamic reform come as long as the world continues to deny that it needs reforming?
Posted by: Cornelius at December 22, 2008 1:44 PM
"As Robert Spencer has asked countless times, from where will the impetus for Islamic reform come as long as the world continues to deny that it needs reforming?"
Cornelius,
Don't show me a lug nut, a wiper blade, and a catalytic converter and attempt to tell me that the three items you hold are a dangerous faulty vehicle that shouldn't be driving on the road.
It's a lug nut, a wiper blade, and a catalytic converter...not a vehicle.
Get a license, learn how to drive, and then take the whole vehicle for a drive...it is a whole other experience when you do.
Peace
Abdullah Mikail
Mr. Spencer wrote: "'As one threat fades, another may come in,'"
Surely, another will come in far worse than the former. As a life-long conservative, I have come to expect appeasement, multiculturalism and political correctness from the left.
I do not expect this from the right.
Let's be honest here, Chertoff speaks for the Administration; for George W. Bush. Bush sets the rules. I am so often frustrated by folks on the right who are little more than apologists for this the man in the White House. Bush sets policy. But it's always Condoleezza Rice and the U.S. State Department that is blamed for immoral Bush-appeasement policies.
Look at America's number one talk radio host, Rush Limbaugh; the Big One who has carried water for this president for close to eight years now; the Big One who supported the Dubai ports buy-out. Has anyone ever heard this Bush apologist mention Muslim terrorists or Islamic jihadists? No. He parrots Bush's politically correct "the terrorists."
George W. Bush has made American political ground fertile for Barack Hussein Obama and his minions. Hold on for a wild ride.
You're in denial, Abdullah.
Hundreds of thousands of your co-religionists are waging holy war on infidels all around the world, and you seem to be saying here...'The car isn't broken, the driver is just not adequately trained'...
...as if an endless line of atrocities can be attributed to a little theological misunderstanding.
It reminds me of your angry denunciation of US military activity in Iraq and Afghanistan on one thread, and your insistence on another that "we" are not at war with Islam, "we" are at war with Al Qaeda and the Taliban.
As much as you'd like to believe otherwise, you are hardly the picture of consistency or cogency.
Well, Cornelius, according to the troll, AM, seems we kuffaars cannot criticize Islam unless we become Muslims, in which case we wouldn't want to criticize Islam because we would then know it's perfect and the true faith. It's a whole new kind of Catch 22. Yep, Muslim logic is a closed system which produces a closed mind (not too sharp with metaphors either).
"...not too sharp with metaphors either"
Amen, bro.
Get a license, learn how to drive, and then take the whole vehicle for a drive...it is a whole other experience when you do.
Peace
Abdullah Mikail
I don't need to test drive a stolen car to know that it is better. Islam is a fraud, deceptive, cult of death. It misrepresents all that is good and virtues. If fact it put every virtue of God on it's head. The God of Abraham, Moses and any other figure of the Book is not the God of Islam, not even close.
I am highly offended that Islam takes this stand and the judgment of God is all that waits it with the return of His SON.
I don't think is an accurate representative of Islam, but uses the language or hijacks Islam for an extremist agenda.
-- actual Harvard Law School alum Michael Chertoff
* 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 *
So, fight them till all opposition ends and the only religion is Islam.
-- Allah commanding Jihad to the finish in Koran 8:39
Maybe actual Harvard graduate Michael Chertoff should actually read the Koran, a book that is actually available, albeit only sorta actually available now at the USC website.
Either Chertoff is lying about his abject ignorance of he's a true ignoramous. My bet is on the latter.
Posted by: Cornelius at December 22, 2008 2:22 PM
Once again Cornelius, you whip out the pontifical glittering generality “endless stream”.
Consistency and cogency…so, you are a monolithic computer with no variation in mood whatsoever? Be real, moods change and this is a sound bite medium…too many bloggers take a word said edgewise and trumpet it along the watch towers as “the definitive”, rather than more truthfully “your opinion.”
“Hundreds of thousands of your co-religionists are waging holy war on infidels all around the world”
If it is a justified self defense against aggression, I have no problem with people defending themselves. But have you ever ask yourself why this is so before tripping into the bars of the “because they hate us and our way of life!” anthem?
You know, every action has a reaction…doesn’t mean anyone is guilty of anything just that what goes around comes around.
Peace
Abdullah Mikail
Some of these New Muslims or reverts or converts (choose your name for the poison) can be tiresome; they are so fascinated by their own choice, and by what it all means, and by what that must mean about them, about how fascinating they must be, so some of them just can't shut up about Islam, even to Infidels clearly indifferent to their enthusiastic recent-revert vaporings.
The Muslim revert above, who refuses to be quietly content in his own new-found certainties in a faith of Absolute and Total Certainty and Regulation of Everything, like one or two other similar cases we have endured before. He's one more slightly off, not very intelligent, but perfectly cheerful and thoroughly ordinary fellows whom life throws up, and who found his thrill in Islam, which gives him the welcome ability to submerge himself in the group, to find a ready-made community of, or so he allows himself to believe, "brothers," but at the same time, he's also become, to himself above all, pretty special, with that impressive new Arabic name he's chosen for himself, and of course the Secret Decoder Ring that came with the Introductory Package to Islam, and at no extra cost. I'd suppress the urge to reply. It only distracts from the matters at hand.
OMG - Is the crap-spewing AM convert to the Religion of War and Hate back with his brainwashed imbecilic BS?
Go pound sand, you crap-filled Mohammedan. What an idiot!
33:21
It also says more than thirty times, “There is no God…”
Oh, wait, I forgot! Silly me, there is a whole context to that sentence that supports the real meaning behind it.
“but He (God).”
Two can play this game, can’t they? How about this:
Deuteronomy 20: 10-20
10 When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it.
11And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, that all the people that is found therein shall be tributaries unto thee, and they shall serve thee.
12And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it:
13And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:
14But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.
15Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far off from thee, which are not of the cities of these nations.
16But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
17But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:
18That they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so should ye sin against the LORD your God.
19When thou shalt besiege a city a long time, in making war against it to take it, thou shalt not destroy the trees thereof by forcing an axe against them: for thou mayest eat of them, and thou shalt not cut them down (for the tree of the field is man's life) to employ them in the siege:
20Only the trees which thou knowest that they be not trees for meat, thou shalt destroy and cut them down; and thou shalt build bulwarks against the city that maketh war with thee, until it be subdued.
Seems like those Israelis are pretty nefarious, don’t you think?
Why don’t you explain this one, 33:21?
Peace
Abdullah Mikail
OMG - Is the crap-spewing AM convert to the Religion of War and Hate back with his brainwashed imbecilic BS?
Go pound sand, you crap-filled Mohammedan. What an idiot!
"allah" is a pagan Arabian moon deity that doesn't exist. You're so stupid and misguided it's unbelievable, you ridiculous convert. Slave to a pagan moon deity, LOL!
What happened to you? When did you get your lobotomy, crap-filled Slave to "allah" that doesn't exist!
Posted by: Wellington at December 22, 2008 2:25 PM
My dear Wellington,
I could have used the three blind mice describing the elephant, but that would have been cliché, wouldn’t it? : )
It would be different if you understood enough to criticize properly. Sometimes it is kind of like watching a mechanic get upset because he can’t read the manual and doesn’t know he’s using imperial tools on a metric system. Wow, stripped another bolt! Duh…
Troll? Oh, come on man, I smile when I say things!
Well, I guess not towing the party line has its draw backs around here, asi es lavida.
Abdullah Mikail
Abdullah Mikail - those quotes from Allah, Mohammed and Ibn Rushd are enough to see that the Qur'an is not from God.
Ibn Rushd (Averroes) (1126 - 1198)
Mohammed – Hadith Sahih Bukhari:V4B55N657 Allah – Qur’an 2:190-191
Allah – Qur’an 9:29
Allah – Qur’an 3:56 Allah – Qur’an 9:39
Allah – Qur’an 2:216 Allah – Qur’an 9:123 Allah – Qur’an 3:110
Allah is not the same as Yahweh ( YHWH )
They don't have the same voice and a simple person like me can see the difference. A child can see it. A child can hear it. A sheep knows his master's voice:
John 10:1-21
I know what the Master's voice should sound like and it's not the voice of the Qur'an.
Islam is A Plague on Both Houses
Posted by: A_Plague_on_Both_Houses at December 22, 2008 3:14 PM
Have you even read the Bible?
Read the one excerpt I posted for you then re-read what you wrote.
Truth
Abdullah Mikail
just that what goes around comes around.
Peace
Abdullah Mikail
Posted by: Abdullah Mikail [TypeKey Profile Page] at December 22, 2008 3:00 PM
Oh, really? Well, I guess that means Muzlims will be getting tortured and beheaded and mass-murdered AS THEY DO TO EVERYONE ELSE!
You're full of crap, Slave to allah, the non-existent pagan desert moon deity. A New Guinea Cannibal has more sense and intelligence than you.
There is not enough poop in the world to describe how full of it you are, you slave.
Keep clicking your heels, Dorothy. Or better yet...Surrender already and let the rest of us do your fighting, you spineless plate of quaking jello.
"Allah’s Messenger said, ‘Isa [Jesus], the son of Mariam,"
Who is this Isa anyway ? Is there proof that this Isa actually existed ?
It's surely not Jesus (Yeshua in aramean or Yasu in arabic).
Good stuff, Hugh.
I'm going to indulge our guest, against both your and my better judgment, perhaps because I'm a fool, but I see Abdullah as still possessing at least a trace of his pre-Islamic humanity.
Like everyone else, my patience is sure to expire soon...
ABDULLAH: "If it is a justified self defense against aggression, I have no problem with people defending themselves. But have you ever ask yourself why this is so before tripping into the bars of the “because they hate us and our way of life!” anthem?"
RESPONSE: Their [your] hatred is ancillary to their [your] obligation, which is living according to "God's law". Those in the Philippines, in Thailand, in China, in India and elsewhere, are not fighting wars of "self-defense against aggression". They are fighting wars of separation to implement Sharia.
Co-existence with infidels AS EQUALS is a violation of the requirements and ethos of your faith. THIS is the reason for the conflicts-in-perpetuity.
ABDULLAH: "You know, every action has a reaction…doesn’t mean anyone is guilty of anything just that what goes around comes around."
RESPONSE: Don't kid with me, Holmes. You know where your sympathies lie, and in an honest moment, you would loudly proclaim that it is America (or Israel, or India, and whoever else is fighting your precious ummah), who is indeed the guilty party.
Posted by: A_Plague_on_Both_Houses at December 22, 2008 3:14 PM
“They don't have the same voice and a simple person like me can see the difference. A child can see it. A child can hear it. A sheep knows his master's voice:”
Oh, really?
Here, I’ll simplify the language for you so it is easily understood:
Deuteronomy 20: 10-20
10 “First claim peace.”
11 “If they surrender and pay tax to you and serve you”
12 “If it does not surrender besiege it:”
13 “Kill every single male when you get them under your control”
14 “But the women are your spoil take them and “eat of the spoil”
15 “You will only terrorize other nations”
16 “Kill everything in these cities that breathes. Commit genocide.”
17 “But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:” (Wow, that needs no further simplification, does it?)
18 “Don’t follow their ways into sin.”
9 “ Save their resources to use against them.”
20 “Save food resources, employ military ones.”
So in the Bible is this the “voice” you describe in mellow lowing tones a loving Shepard calling to his flock? Seems very different from the way I read it…tell me, am I wrong?
They may not spell it out, but the “promised land” blurbs do betray the true motives behind them, don’t they?
Now it’s your turn, tell me the Israelis aren’t still following the Bible and this order?
Tell me, do you really know the "voice" of which you speak?
Truth
Abdullah Mikail
43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies[i] and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
perfect like really perfect , not "perfect" like mo the pedo
Dearest AM: If towing the party line means being opposed to totalitarian systems like Islam, Marxism and fascism, which enslave the mind and deny to others the freedom to openly criticize said systems, then put me down as someone who tows.
P.S. Where's it written trolls can't smile?
War
Wellington
Abdullah, you wrote:
17But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:
18That they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so should ye sin against the LORD your God.
Peace
Abdullah Mikail
Adullah, herein lies the difference between the law of Moses and the Qur'an. God commanded the Israelites to uproot and destroy wicked, evil people from the land. These were not "unbelievers." They were morally wicked people who sacrificed their living sons and daughters to their gods. They dropped their living children down the hollow arm of an idol of Molech -- heated with a fire in the base of the idol -- thereby allowing their children to be burnt alive as a pleasing offering to Molech or Ba'al or Ashtoreth. They engaged in bestiality, homosexuality, incest and all other sorts of behavior that YHWH forbid.
By contrast Mohammad commanded his disciples to wage war on and kill "unbelievers." Now an unbeliever can be a perfectly moral and ethical human being. According to Islam, I am an unbeliever. Hugh is an unbeliever. Robert is an unbeliever. There is no mercy for the unbeliever in Islam. The unbeliever is evil in Allah's eyes. Not so according to the law of Moses. There were many strangers and sojourners that lived with the Israelites (still do) and they were not worshippers of YHWH, nor was Moses their prophet, yet they were good, moral people; still are.
Not so in Islam. In Islam these are unbelievers and they should be subjugated, destroyed or converted. There is no mercy in Islam for the unbeliever. Osama bin Laden's victims were unbelievers. Thus according to Islam they are evil. Not so according to YHWH and His servant Moses.
Thus Allah is a very different god from YHWH, the Holy One of Israel. There is only one God and He is YHWH; not Allah.
Contrast this evil world view that Allah promulgated with the world view of YHWH and YHWH's servant and His law in the book of Moses.
"Tom: I wish to understand you correctly. Are you saying that whether American or Western government officials declare Islam, all of Islam, good or bad, it won't really affect how they act? That what counts is what they privately think?" - Wellington
I'm saying what matters is how they choose to use their power to eliminate terrorism and all our enemies, enhancing our national security and advancing our interests and global security, period. It is my suspicion that President Bush, Secretary Chertoff, and well briefed people concerned with national security are aware that Islam is the principal motivation for terrorism, and a multi-generational struggle the West can not avoid. The "Hijacking Islam" is propaganda, aimed at poorly informed moderate Muslims and (with a wink) educated Muslims who have an interest in the trade and economic prosperity that results from global security (including and especially the leadership of oil producing Islamic states).
This is not a stupid, naive, or cynical decision on their part. It is a practical decision given the consequences of the "call a spade a spade" approach. Most of you here are opposed to the administration's approach, and I am sympathetic to your view. I am more than ready to clearly identify and crush the enemies of Western Civilization, just like Ronald Reagan did with the Soviet Union, and I was proud to participate in that victory. However, the Soviet Union was in decline, its ideology was already discredited, and we didn't have two million more or less devout Russian communists in the USA. There may come a time for open war with the parts of Islam that will not explicitly renounce the tenets that lead to terrorism and allow it to fester within their borders, but our Government has decided there is a less risky and less expensive pacification approach they want to pursue, at least until an attack like 9/11 increases the national and international resolve to do something more.
Meanwhile, focusing our efforts on resisting the "Stealth Jihad" is the most important activity, as Mr. Spencer's latest book supports.
Islam is a hoax invented by the false prophet Mohamet for his own advancement. And intellectual imbeciles like the convert up above fall for it. What a weak mind! The mentally-challenged abdullah!
Go to an Arabian desert and pound sand with your sandstone idol, you creep. Oh, and drink some camel piss while you're at it! Mo highly recommended it!
Wellington
Well stated my dear Wellington, but for one qualification I would make, there is a science in Islam of how to oppose and how to properly criticize and disagree, especially when discussing Islam, and when your goal is the truth and not “pushing the agenda” in an ideal setting the truth is realized and the parties stop arguing.
Today’s world is not an ideal setting, unfortunately.
Agenda rules the day in all systems of government today, not peace, not truth, agenda, and thus here we have entire nations ready to commit genocide because of a material things.
Defend what is right against what is wrong, but know what is right and what is wrong before you make a stand.
Peace
Abdullah Mikail
P.S. If you shrug your knuckles will stop clicking on the pavement.
"It is my suspicion that President Bush, Secretary Chertoff, and well briefed people concerned with national security are aware that Islam is the principal motivation for terrorism, and a multi-generational struggle the West can not avoid. The "Hijacking Islam" is propaganda, aimed at poorly informed moderate Muslims and (with a wink) educated Muslims who have an interest in the trade and economic prosperity that results from global security (including and especially the leadership of oil producing Islamic states).
This is not a stupid, naive, or cynical decision on their part. It is a practical decision given the consequences of the "call a spade a spade" approach."
Taqqiyyah the other way around.
Posted by: Wild Jew at December 22, 2008 3:40 PM
Wild Jew,
I understand your wanting to defend the verse and your faith.
Did you learn something in your attempt to explain something?
Peace
Abdullah Mikail
Hi Abdulla your shining example of a bigot here.
I happened to catch a discussion with an elderly Jewish writer of children’s books on BBC Radio 4 this morning. She and her family had escaped from Germany with just a week to spare in 1939 and the BBC interviewer taxed her about her pro-British attitude. As you might imagine this is very embarrassing to a left wing liberal outfit like the BBC where anti-British hate and self hate is the only kind of hate permitted.
Her reply was interesting; “Well there are not many of us left now but you will find all of us who escaped from Germany feel that way about Britain.”
I thought how she and her fellow refugees were highly educated, integrated and even patriotic Germans. They came to Britain with nothing, asked nothing and got nothing but the right to live and work unmolested. In return they committed themselves entirely to Britain as a visit to any European war cemetery will show. 75 years later their gratitude is so strong it upsets the BBC.
What a contrast these people are to your fellow muslims most of whom were illiterate farmers who left their corrupt an badly run countries of their own free will a little over 30 years ago. Your people set up your own mini-states wherever they go demanding the “right” to live under your own laws and customs and even use their own language. You drive out the local people, plunder the social security system exploit the health services by bringing sick and pregnant relatives in for extended “holidays” and use every device to avoid paying taxes. You demand that not only must our whole society be “sensitive” to your requirements, but our countries foreign policy must take your interests into account. This is fair enough because at least it tells us your interests and ours are clear different things.
Not content with that you are using the education and money our society provided free of charge to kill us and publicly express your intention to take over the whole damn place.
Now, you have effectively told Wellington he is an ape which is fair enough because your "holy" koran has taught you we are all pigs and monkeys anyway. Your true opinion has slipped out by accident and for that at least we are grateful.
Peace? Fine but considering the way you behave as an oppressed minority what is your bottom line?
BTW A young rapist was quoted in an earlier report on the same radio station, his defence was “It is not a crime to rape an English girl”. Being the BBC they did not give his ethnicity or religion but muslims in Australia have said the same about Australian girls so I guess its an even chance.
Wild Jew you are so true. Abdallah is a new convert to a religion of pure hate. He tries to use the Old Testament to say the Bible is bad. Well the OT was not Judaism, but the life and history of the Jewish people from Hebrew to Israel (Judah). Islam and Muhammad said the Bible was corrupt, yet they use it every day and then claim it spoke about the pedophile Arab prophet in Deut 18:18. How do they know since it is corrupt. Christ came and said walk away and nevwer said kill Jews or Romans or Arabs, but along came Mo and said kill everyone. Allah is SATAN THE DEVIL according to Sura 3:54. GOD cannot lie or scheme or deceive, but Allah does. GOD has sons but not Allah, he only had girls.
RAMADAM was a Hindu holy day from the Vedas celebrated 3000 yrs before Mo was born. Another Islamic thievery brought to light. Hindus are mad now because of Mumbai, and are telling the lies from Islam.
Adbul Musa called Dr. King a coward and Obama stupid at Towson State U. in Baltimore Maryland.
WHY DO WE NEED A MUSLIMS STUDENT ASSOCIATION? A MUSLIM PRISON ASSOCIATION? WHY NOT AN INFIDEL STUDENT ASSOCIATION? I am a proud infidel! Allah was a moon god and sabeans use to own the crescent moon and star symbols until prophet mo stole them abdallah.
Abduallah Mikail,
Wild Jew has written the response that I would have for your Deuteronomy gambit.
Allah's commands stand for all time and are open ended, the commands to slay and be slain for his religion are still in place today and apply to any and all unbelievers. Deuteronomy is not the same in time, place, scale or scope.
Yes, I've read the new and old testaments. I've read Qur'an, Ahadith, Sirat Rasullah and some rulings over time, as well as some commentators like Ibn Rusd and others, just as you have.
The voice of YHWH is not the same as that of Qur'an from al-Lah.
Show me I'm wrong somehow if you can. I will listen to you.
But trying to do so by quoting 5:32 or 'No compulsion' from Surah 2 (I think) is not enough. 5:32 referred back to what Jews had written anyway if you read the whole context. It wasn't in force for al mu'minum [true believers] 5:33 was the new instruction and it was the opposite of 5:32 anyway.
Abdullah, I don't claim to be a good man, or a holy one. I don't claim special knowledge of Islam, Qur'an or what YHWH expects of me. I don't need any of those things to have a simple understanding of what The Voice sounds like. Neither do you. We both know enough.
AM:
Dangerously violent religious texts + Reinterpretation by enlightened modern Jews and Christians = No threat in the present day.
But,
Dangerously violent religious texts + brainwashed Muslim idiots = Threat to contemporary society.
simple.
Posted by: Cornelius at December 22, 2008 3:28 PM
Cornelius,
Now, now, that projection bias of yours is raising it’s ugly head again.
Your final response is your opinion, not mine.
I judge every situation by what I know, and try not to project any bias into what I am looking at.
Case in point, there is the Mumbai thing…it is still cloudy to me since I received an email discussing the language used on the messages made by the terrorists to local news media in India.
The problem is, anyone can spin the information.
So what if they used Hindi words and expressions that are never used by Punjabs?
So what if they went straight after key ATS personnel and then that team suddenly disappear?
http://www.frontpagemag.com/GoPostal/commentdetail.aspx?GUID=63f66853-7c27-4755-93fc-2dbe008fc55e&commentID=e1df3e7b-e640-4638-82a2-d807c2a71121
It is hard to dig down to the truth of a matter with so much smoke and so many mirrors.
Peace
Abdullah Mikail
Abdullah,
1. It says to offer peace (or unconditional surrender) not make false claims of peace.
2. There's no mention of the losing side having to pay taxes, that's a Muslim thing.
3. As for eliminating people, clearly they never did it since later books shows these people still existed. Your claim of genocide is just as bogus as your claim aginst Israel today. The so-called Palestinians have only increased in population.
4. The enemies of Israel weren't so simply because they didn't believe in God, as Wild Jew points out but because they were pervse. They threw their own children into furnaces to placate Ba'al. Mohammed believed in subjugating and killing people not because of their behavior but simply because they wouldn't submit to him. I think that's a huge difference. I'm sorry but there's no comparrison between the Koran and the Bible since according to the Bible Abraham, Isaac, Jesse (Moses's father who instituted the God's law into Israelite life), Job, Noah, etc were neither Jewish or Christian. Clearly from the Biblical point of view you don't have to subscribe to either of those beliefs to be regarded as righteous by God. That's not true with Islam.
Science and Islam? An oxymoron.
Abdullah and Truth and Peace? Oxymorons.
The "smoke and mirrors" is by Mohamet the Warlord Pedophile Mass-Murderer.
Like you, abdullah. Since you consider Mo to be a "perfect man." Mo is as much a perfect man as Adolph Hitler. Oh, but you admire Hitler and his mass-murder of Jews. I get it. That's you, abdullah, and your evil mass-murdering pagan moon deity.
Posted by: A_Plague_on_Both_Houses at December 22, 2008 4:14 PM
“Allah's commands stand for all time and are open ended, the commands to slay and be slain for his religion are still in place today and apply to any and all unbelievers. Deuteronomy is not the same in time, place, scale or scope.”
When someone makes a statement such as this it is evidence that they have not read or studied the verse at all.
The orders have a time place and a specific situation, they do not stand for all time, they are not blanket commands that cover everything… Read it again and you will find the information in respect to nations.
Verses of the Quran talk about the divine design of different peoples, nations, tribes, borders, the need for these, and the need to check one set of people against another so that chaos doesn’t rule, because a one world government would be that, chaos.
The Quran does not say “kill them all” “you must subjugate the planet”, in fact it says that this is not the divine system that has been set up.
“The voice of YHWH is not the same as that of Qur'an from al-Lah.
Show me I'm wrong somehow if you can. I will listen to you.”
We can not be right or wrong in our opinions, only in our facts, and we both need to learn more about each other so that we can be a stronger nation…Islam is not going away, Christianity, Judaism, and a plethora of American faiths are not going to go away.
We have to be the ones to stop labeling and smearing one another with things that happen far away from our American culture…we lead the world over the last hundred years in war and scientific advancement…we can still be the ones to lead the world in Peace.
Peace
Abdullah Mikail
AM the Imbecile convert considers a "perfect man" to be a Barbarian Warlord who f***** a 9-year-old girl when he was 53.
That's your "perfect man?" A pedophile?
You're sick. You're very ill and sick, Abdullah. Get help. Go to your nearest mental health facility immediately. Oh, and get out of our country, while you're at it, and re-locate to some Islamic Crapistan.
Adullah Mikail,
How do we get past this one:
Allah – Qur’an 9:29and how do we get past 8:39?
Neither 9:29 nor 8:39 have time or scope restrictions and 8:39 is talking about fighting until 'all religion is for Allah'. If 8:39 is not a blanket standing order I'd like to know how and the same for 9:29. I'd also like to know why Ibn Rusd was incorrect in his interpretation back in the middle ages. He lived in the 12th Century A.D. yet he and 'Scholars' though 8:39 was still in force:
Ibn Rushd (Averroes) (1126 - 1198)
"Verses of the Quran talk about the divine design of different peoples, nations, tribes, borders, the need for these, and the need to check one set of people against another so that chaos doesn’t rule, because a one world government would be that, chaos."
I can believe that. Mohammed, himself never sought to subjugate all of the pagan Arab tribes. After all, if everyone were Muslim, who would Mohammed have left to raid and plunder.
Wild Jew,
I understand your wanting to defend the verse and your faith.
Did you learn something in your attempt to explain something?
Posted by: Abdullah Mikail
Abdullah, I began studying Torah and the Bible some twenty five years ago. I only began reading Qur'an and reading about Islam shortly after 9/11/2001. It's not a matter of defending the word of God through Moses. God does not need me to defend Him.
I can say this for a certainty. The God of our Bible, the God of Israel is not Allah. These are two entirely different Gods or deities as the case may be. If you read God's word to our prophets and compare these with Allah's word to Muhammad through Gabriel, these are two entirely different voices. I am pretty good at recognizing the voice of my God.
Chertoff, as usual, has it bass ackwards.
The only Muslims that have hijacked Islam are the "moderate" Muslims. The "extremist" Muslims are operating "by the Book".
Yeah, and how do we get past this one:
9:111 - "Allah has purchased from the faithful their lives and worldly goods, and in return has promised them the Garden. They will fight for the cause of Allah, they will slay, and be slain."
You Mohammedan Barbarians who kill yourselves and others for a pagan moon deity THAT DOESN'T EXIST!
Mohamet wrote the above, you total and complete brainwashed imbecile! You pitiful excuse for a human being. You're like a rock or a stone - unthinking. Pity poor convert to Evil, abdullah.
Wild Jew,
I agree and have followed a similar course as you describe, and have come to the same conclusions:
Posted by: Fred at December 22, 2008 4:07 PM
Fred! You knuckle dragging punum!
How ya’ been?
Still shining I see…the whole paragraph starting with ‘What a contrast…” is pure-unadulterated- knuckle-dragging-Fred-shining-example-of-a-bigot at his best.
(BTW wellington called me a “troll”, so it was only fair that I call him a knuckle dragging ape…I am sure he is astute enough to see the humor in it…but you? Not so sure… the knuckle dragging ape thing has nothing to do with religion, just bigotry.)
P.S. Fred, most American immigrants were uneducated farmer types, remember? Duh…
Oh , I see how it is…you paint the desired demography with wonderful colors, but you need to dirty up the brush before you start painting the “hated demography.”
“Your people” “You drive out” “You demand”
Wow, Fred, you are getting personal aren’t you? I had no idea I owned so much..
: )
Fred, remember the Irish and Five Corners New York? China Town? Little Italy? And how about the lynchings of the Italians in New Orleans? Do you remember any of this, or is it in your “suppress because it makes us look bad” section of your mind?
“…what is your bottom line?”
Learn to live with us as we live with you, this is America, we vote, we pay taxes, and we have rights. We live here and we are never going away, ever. Get along, or move along, it has always been this way in America.
Peace
Abdullah Mikail
Re: The above
In no way is "allah" the Judeo-Christian God. "allah" is as much Jesus as Mars is Jupiter:
NO WAY.
Jesus is the Living God.
"allah" is a sandstone idol with a crescent carved on it's chest found in the Arabian deserts by archaeologists. Mohammedans, like abdullah mikail, are idol-worshippers.
Poor abdullah the knuckle-dragging Barbarian Mohammedan. You Neanderthal. You missing link.
You Mohammedan bigot! You racist pig!
Get out of our country you Islamic Barbarian. You savage, you primitive, you idol-worshipper. GET OUT! GET OUT NOW! GO LIVE IN YEMEN YOU BARBARIAN.
Islam - racist, bigoted, hate-filled, intolerant, mass-murdering piece of shit "religion."
Islam gives a bad name to "religion." And not just a bad name - an evil name. Like one of it's brainwashed followers, abdullah the stupid convert who feels so personally inferior he has to embrace a political ideology that mass-murders other people. Like Nazis did.
abdullah mikail - one of the most inferior, pitiful, humans who has ever existed. A slave to a moon god! LOL!
"Fred, remember the Irish and Five Corners New York? China Town? Little Italy? And how about the lynchings of the Italians in New Orleans? Do you remember any of this, or is it in your “suppress because it makes us look bad” section of your mind?"
Interesting. Yet where are the lynchings of Muslims? Where are the mobs marching on "Little Arabia"?
After all, the Italians, Irish, and Chinese are all just kuffir.
Posted by: A_Plague_on_Both_Houses at December 22, 2008 4:51 PM
"How do we get past this one:" (9:29)
An excellent question.
Do you think that it is a "blank check" given to Muslims to go on doing whatever they want for ever in attacking other people simply because they don’t believe?
That to which you refer must have context, or you destroy meaning.
This verse was revealed as a response to treachery from the Pagan Quraysh who violated a peace treaty with the Muslims by way of mass murdering a group of unarmed Muslims, who were unarmed due to the treaty.
After this gross violation of the treaty between the Muslims and the Pagan Quraysh, the order came down then, and with the mercy and consideration of God in that He gave the treacherous Pagan Quraysh and their allies in and around Mecca a four month warning given in 9:2 in order to allow them to evacuate Mecca or make peace, and that after which those Pagan Quraysh or their forces or allies remaining as enemies would be given no quarter.
It was a just directive from God in response to a very specific issue of treachery at a specific time and place, i.e. the treachery of Pagan Quraysh in violation of the treaty of Hudaibiya, subsequently, Mecca was liberated from the control of Idolators and true faith re-established in Masjid Al Haram.
So 9:29 is a “sweep and clear” order specific to the violation of a treaty 1,400+ years ago…it is not a license to attack anyone a Muslim wants at any time in history.
Peace
Abdullah Mikail
"Abdullah's" a Mohammedan Barbarian.
He worships an illiterate pedophile mass-murdering Warlord because there is no "allah."
Mohammedan Barbarian 7th century AD Neanderthal abdullah mikail. Worships a Warlord! LOL!
"What we're confronting is an ideological conflict with an extremist world view that I don't think is an accurate representative of Islam, but uses the language or hijacks Islam for an extremist agenda. It's an ideology that's reflected in al-Qaeda, and it's reflected in Lashkar-e-Taiba, which everybody now knows because of (the Mumbai attacks)."
-- from an interview with Chertoff in the article above
How does Michael Chertoff know what he calls, a bit too easily, an "extremist world view" is not "an accurate representative of Islam"? Is it because John Esposito and a cast of thousands in MESA Nostra, and all the Arab diplomats in solemn conclave assembled, tell him this, over and over again? Or does he just think this must be so, because one of the “world’s major religions” could not, at the same time, actually divide the world uncormpomisingly in two, between Believers and Infidels, and promulgate the belief that Muslims have a duty to engage in a struggle or Jihad to push back the borders of Islam, until it covers the entire globe, with all obstacles to its spread, and then its dominance, removed, so that Islam dominates everywhere, and everywhere, Muslims rule?
Certainly Michael Chertoff does not know this, could not possibly be certain of this, if had sat quietly for a week or two, studying the contents of the Qur’an, the Hadith (a few hundred will do), and the Sira, and also the helpful books on Islam by texts of Schacht, Snouck Hurgronje, Arthur Jeffrey, Henri Lammens, Samuel Zwemer, Charles-Emmanuel Dufourcq, Antoine Fattal, Majid Khadduri and so many others. And it can’t possibly be because he managed to read a few books by Bat Ye’or, especially "The Dhimmi" and "Islam and Dhimmitude.,” Nor could he have been so certain that this is an “ideological conflict with an extremist view that [is not] an accurate representative of Islam” but merely, somehow we are not told,”uses the language or hijacks Islam for an extremist agenda.” No, he couldn’t possibly have arrived at that notion, either, from his study of all the celebrated defectors from the Army of Islam, such articulate apostates as Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Ibn Warraq, and Magdi Allam and Ali Sina, or all the less-known ones who put up their own testimony at such sites as www.faithfreedom.org. Nor could he, Michael Chertoff, the Director of Homeland Security, and thus the one official in the American government above all others, of the millions of employees, who should take as his duty the task of learning, and learning deeply, about Islam, possibly have seen the interventions of Wafa Sultan, who was raised as a Muslim, among other Mulsims, in deepest Syria.
So if he couldn’t possibly have derived this view from reading the canonical texts of Islam, or from consulting the hundreds of learned Western scholars of Islam who studied and wrote in the century, roughly 1870 to 1970, before the Great Inhibition descended, or from reading what the apostates of Islam, in the safety of the Infidel West, have written, where could Michael Chertoff, Director of Homeland Security, possibly have picked up such an idea? From the ambient air of Official Washington, no doubt, which like Official Wall Street is full of people who don’t do their due diligence, and all think what one another thinks, because that is convenient, that avoids having to face up to unimagined, possibly because unimaginable, problems.
He’s not the worst of them. But there he is, one more of those whose task it is to not only protect, but instruct us. But he can’t instruct us, clearly. And if he can’t instruct us, then the kinds of things he likely thinks about doing, are not the things nearly adequate to, in the long run, here and among our allies, to protect us.
These people are just not up to it. A whole new group is needed, without any overlap of Yesterday’s Men. And that goes, as well, for all those who think that everything in the world explains the beliefs and behavior of Muslims themselves except, of course, Islam.
This can’t be allowed to continue.
"It was a just directive from God..." --AM
God? You don't know anything about God! "allah" is a pagan moon deity that doesn't exist! You know NOTHING of God! The Judeo-Christian God is the ONLY God.
Jesus is God.
Allah is Not.
Barbarian slave, you know NOTHING of God.
What you know is: "god." A Moon god. Pagan. Doesn't exist. Sandstone idol. Capische? You're so brainwashed it's funny!
Abdullah,
And I suppose you believe 9-11 was an inside job?
This desperate attempt of yours to re-allocate (or at least deflect) the blame for the Mumbai atrocity is a perfect example of the myopia brought on by your religious affliction.
These people are just not up to it. A whole new group is needed, without any overlap of Yesterday’s Men. And that goes, as well, for all those who think that everything in the world explains the beliefs and behavior of Muslims themselves except, of course, Islam.
This can’t be allowed to continue.
Posted by: Hugh
I'm smarter than the Director of Homeland Security, Michael Chertoff.
And so is everyone else (Mohammedans excluded) on JW.
Amazing, isn't it? We're smarter and more informed than the United States Director of Homeland Security.
Amazing, and sad, as all-get-out.
http://www.islam-watch.org/MA_Khan/Challenge-to-Close-Islam-watch-Debate-on-Sword-Verse.htm
On the significance of verse 9:5, the verse of the sword, Ibn Kathir writes:
(Caliph) Abu Bakr As-Siddiq used this and other honorable Ayat as proof for fighting those who refrained from paying the Zakah. These Ayat allowed fighting people unless, and until, they embrace Islam and implement its rulings and obligations. Allah mentioned the most important aspects of Islam here, including what is less important. Surely, the highest elements of Islam after the Two Testimonials, are the prayer, which is the right of Allah, the Exalted and Ever High, then the Zakah, which benefits the poor and needy. These are the most honorable acts that creatures perform, and this is why Allah often mentions the prayer and Zakah together. In the Two Sahihs (hadiths), it is recorded that Ibn `Umar said that the Messenger of Allah said,
«أُمِرْتُ أَنْ أُقَاتِلَ النَّاسَ حَتَّى يَشْهَدُوا أَنْ لَا إِلَهَ إِلَّا اللهُ وَأَنَّ مُحَمَّدًا رَسُولُ اللهِ وَيُقِيمُوا الصَّلَاةَ وَيُؤْتُوا الزَّكَاة»
(I have been commanded to fight the people until they testify that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, establish the prayer and pay the Zakah.) This honorable Ayah (9:5) was called the Ayah of the Sword, about which Ad-Dahhak bin Muzahim said, "It abrogated every agreement of peace between the Prophet and any idolator, every treaty, and every term.'' Al-`Awfi said that Ibn `Abbas commented: "No idolator had any more treaty or promise of safety ever since Surah Bara'ah was revealed. The four months, in addition to, all peace treaties conducted before Bara'ah was revealed and announced had ended by the tenth of the month of Rabi` Al-Akhir.''
so peaceful
Abdu Mikail (defender of Israel, in the larger version, not redacted)
OT
" ...learn to live with us as we do with you. this is America ..."
WHY? you give us no good reason. you are like our multiculturalists, in that - giving us no reason why we must entertain any and all that undermines and would destroy what ingenuity and righteous motive, along with answered prayers from the Almighty has wrought.
that which you bring ENSLAVES in many ways. even, you. your makeup seems was modified (like Muhammad's when Adam slipped) so that you became destined to be a pugilist, or, maybe a spearpoint, jabbing, pricking about.
despite your obvious knowledge you seem totally ignorant as to how you may find freedom from the burden of human weakness common to us all, that must somehow be offset by your efforts. so, you've arrogated to yourself to be OUR imam.
on topic:
has anyone a clue as to what "soft power" might now be, especially since MSM as abdicated it's position, or, perhaps has been either been intimidated or bought off?
Abdullah, thanks for the explanation on 9:29.
Now how can we get this understanding propagated throughout the Islamic world and through the Islamic religious community? If imams around the world have the same understanding that you've described, I think we can move to a future where Islam could potentially co-exist with other religions in an atmosphere of mutual equality. How do you think we can convince the Maddrassas and the group of imams in Cairo and those of the Saudis to agree with the idea that 9:29 is specific and limited to the 7th century?
Also, what about 8:39, Ibn Rusd and fight until the end of al-fitnah and all deen is for Allah? I don't see a way to make that specific in time or place.
Posted by: Cornelius at December 22, 2008 5:35 PM
Projection Bias…what is it with you?
You know absolutely nothing more about the incident than others, yet automatically you accepted:
The attackers were Muslims from Pakistan
Despite the fact:
They drank booze.
Took cocaine.
Took steroids.
They were high on Acid. (***)
Wore Hindu religious symbols
Spoke Hindi reflexively.
Etc, etc, etc,
Oh, by the way, we had this information in less than 24hrs after the incident, I believe.
Oh, and this baby (***) it takes a spinal tap to determine this one….so they just said, “Hey, forget about securing anything…do a spinal tap before the body gets cold! Yeah, that’s it…a useful expenditure of energy. Man power, and state funds, when of course we won’t even spend the money to get the Special Forces there in a timely manner…:”
You bought all that?
Dude, I got an an e-mail from a native speaker in Pakistan that raised new questions.
Can you tell a Jersey accent from a Boston accent?
But you are a conspiracy theorist if you can, right?
Can you say “lead me around by the agenda ring in my nose”…don’t blow smoke about “WMD’s” SHOW ME...PROVE IT.
“myopia brought on by your religious affliction.”
Yeah, poor me, I just can’t get over my Gulf of Tonkin Syndrome and that other kind, you know, August 31, 1939, German covert operatives pretending to be Polish terrorists seized the Gleiwitz radio station in the German/Poland border region of Silesia? Remember those?
The possibility is still there, however slim, it's there.
If we keep this thing from turning into an all out war we may actually get to the truth of the matter, and if it is a well constructed "taqyia" attack, then I'll agree with you, but each time I get ready to hang that up and agree with the "official version" I get new information I didn't have before.
Like I said, the jury is still out...but yes, unlike you, that Muslims committed the attrocity is not something I want to believe is true, but you WANT TO BELIEVE it is true before any evidence is given.
(was that projection?)
Truth is sometime stranger than fiction
Abdullah Mikail
Plague - why are you believing the Mohammedan?
Haven't you heard of Al-Taqiyya? He's just telling you what your ears want to hear - but it's not true!
Never believe a Mohammedan.
Wild Jew
seconded.
That's my own experience: having been a Christian believer since childhood, and having immersed myself in the entirety of the Scriptures since I turned twelve, I was in no danger of confusing the spiritual atmosphere I sense in those Scriptures, with the entirely different - and ugly and hostile - Thing that I encountered when I read the Koran, way way back, years before September 11th.
To all new readers, quietly lurking and observing: the clearest , briefest and most straightforward exposition in English of the bottomless chasm that separates the Biblical theology - and anthropology - from the Islamic, is to be found in Rev Dr Mark Durie's little pocket guide, 'Revelation? Do We Worship the Same God? Jesus, Holy Spirit, God in Christianity and Islam'. It costs all of $15 (Australian) and may be bought online.
Although primarily aimed at clearing the heads of Christians, Dr Durie's book would be of use to Jews also and indeed to any person of any non-Muslim faith or none, who needs to know how to demolish the entirely specious Muslim claim that 'allah' is 'the same as' the God worshipped by Jews and by Christians. Bat Yeor, who is Jewish, gave it her imprimatur.
It is brief, lucid, accurate, scholarly, and fully documented; any intelligent high school graduate should be able to comprehend it. Every rabbi and priest should have it tucked in their back pocket.
People who are French, or can read French, may also enjoy Jacques Ellul's masterly essay, 'Les trois piliers du conformisme' ('the three pillars of conformity') which deals with the same subject - the Muslim claim to be an 'Abrahamic' faith.
This essay was published in a booklet called 'Jacques Ellul: Islam et Judeo-Christianisme: texte inedit' (Presses Universitaires de France, 2004).
The book contains: a long and interesting introductory essay, on Islam, by Alain Besancon, which is also well worth reading; then 'Les trois piliers du conformisme'; and the French text of the preface on Dhimmitude which Ellul wrote for Bat Yeor's 'The Dhimmi' - a preface which appeared in the English, Russian and Hebrew editions, but which did not appear in the French.
I quote the final paragraphs of 'Les trois piliers...', in French and in a very rough English translation.
'Je conclurai donc cette breve etude, qui pourrait etre approfondie (mais on obtiendrait les memes resultats), en disant qu'il y a des ressemblances de *mots* entre la Revelation biblique et l'islam qui cachent la difference fondamentale.
'Il est question de Dieu, de Tout-Puissant, d'*un seul* Dieu, createur, d'Esprit, de Peche, de jugement suivi d'une resurrection, le tout contenu dans un livre revele...
'Tout cela conduit evidemment a considerer qu'il y a une grande proximite avec la Revelation biblique.
'Mais il ne s'agit que de mots, et il faut alors en preciser le sens, et l'on s'apercoit du fosse infranchissable entre les deux.
'La Ressemblance des mots cache totalement les oppositions, a la fois du Sens et de l'Etre".
'I would conclude, then, this brief study, which could have been extended (but we would have gotten the same results), by saying that there are verbal resemblances {or, alternatively, resemblances of terminology} between the Biblical Revelation and Islam, which conceal the fundamental difference [between them].
'It is a question of God, the Almighty, of one God, creator, Spirit, Sin, judgement followed by a resurrection, all contained in a revealed book…
'All this obviously leads people to think that it [Islam] is very close to the Biblical Revelation.
' But it is nothing more than words , and so we have to define their meaning, and realize the un-crossable gulf between the two [Christianity and Islam].
'The Resemblance of terms completely conceals the fact that they are opposite in both Meaning and Substance".
AM above is repulsive. A lying repulsive Barbarian who admires a 7th century Pedophile, Piss Be Upon him.
Never believe a Mohammedan.
Darcy,
It doesn't matter if I believe Abdullah or not on his 9:29. What matters is that the rest of the Islamic world agrees with him. They don't and haven't over the last 14 centuries, but I'd like to know if Abdullah has a way to get this ummah collective to the same understanding that he has. It would be better for all of us if there is a way to move the imams and the believers to the 'specific time and place' that Abdullah believes applies to 9:29. I'd like to help move the rest of the Islamic world to that belief and would like to know how to accomplish it.
Posted by: A_Plague_on_Both_Houses at December 22, 2008 5:48 PM
“Also, what about 8:39, Ibn Rusd and fight until the end of al-fitnah and all deen is for Allah? I don't see a way to make that specific in time or place.”
Ibn Rushd (Averroes) (1126 - 1198)
What situation were the scholars discussing? It matters very much that we understand what they were lecturing about when they made this consensus. Obviously if one is set upon by enemies one must fight, regardless of who they are, but what specific situation was Ibn Rushd discussing?
8:39 was revealed in 2 A. H. after the Battle of Badr and discusses the battle and the state of war that existed at that time between the Pagan Quraish, their allies, and the Muslim state in Madina.. It defines what to do with the spoils of war and how to conduct yourself in that situation.
Once again, it is not a blanket statement or order to do anything, it discusses something that happened and the way to deal with that situation. Obviously, if you are stuck in the middle of a fight you have to fight those that fight you.
The key is learning about what moral is being taught, make a just peace and maintain it.
I gotta roll man…I have some training to do.
Peace
Abdullah Mikail
P.S. Darcy, for a pirrannah you're kind of nice.
: )
good translation dumblesdoreamy (are you french ?) i will have to look for this book
A_Plague_on_Both_Houses read this
http://www.islam-watch.org/MA_Khan/Challenge-Close-Down-Islam-watch-Muhammad-Not-Meccans-Broke-Hudaybiyah-Treaty-No-Connection-Sword-Verse-9.5.htm
Okay Abdullah,
But Ibn Rusd is considered a great thinker and scholar in Islamic history. One of the best. He lived in al Andalus during the 'Golden Age of tolerant Islam.' He also lived after the Ijtihad has closed.
Now how is it that he disagrees with you? He wrote:
He did not write 'should have' as in the past. He wrote should be fought, as in future tense. You are disagreeing with one of the most esteemed thinkers and scholars from the golden age of Islam and after the gates of Itjihad had closed. Ibn Rusd knew Itjihad had been ended and he's held up as an example of greatness, yet he thinks 8:39 still applies to his future.
I don't think you and I will be able to convince the ummah that a Great One was incorrect and that you and I are correct without some great Reckoning taking place that forces everyone to reconsider. Do you have a way to convince the collective Islamic world that you are correct, Abullah? I'm serious, not trying to mock you in any way here. You could have the key that saves the Islamic world from destruction.
ABDULLAH: "You bought all that?"
No I haven't....just like I didn't buy that 4000 Jews stayed home on Sept 11.
The Indians captured a surviving terrorist, Abdullah. He is from a Pakistani village. His parents have been interviewed and acknowledge him as their son.
How do you explain that?
Abdullah once again demonstrates the kind of distinguished achievement that earned him the 2008 IslamoChomsky Propaganda Prize for Fantastic Religious Bullshitery.
Oh Abdullah, Traveler on the intellectual Mobius-Strip of Islam, oh Devout Deconstructor of the written word of brothers Fred, Cornelius, and others, thou who reveals their hidden Meaning, even as the meaning remains hidden unto those who actually wrote the words.
Oh Abdullah, let us consult the Oracle, the Prophet Noam, for His guidance by analogy on where thy path of righteous reflection upon your new, improved, post-Christian religion may take you. Behold Abdullah, the words of Noam on post-Modernism, so that by analogy ye shall learn from He who is legend even unto himself:
From: http://www.chomsky.info/articles/1995----02.htm
THIS DISCUSSION involves people with a large range of shared aspirations and commitments; in some cases at least, friends who have worked and struggled together for many years. I hope, then, that I can be quite frank. And personal, since to be honest, I don't see much of independent substance to discuss.
I don't want to mislead, and therefore should say, at once, that I am not all sure that I am taking part in the discussion. I think I understand some of what is said in the six papers, and agree with much of it. What I don't understand is the topic: the legitimacy of "rationality," "science," and "logic" (perhaps modified by "Western")--call the amalgam "rational inquiry," for brevity. I read the papers hoping for some enlightenment on the matter, but, to quote one contributor, "my eyes glaze over and thanks, but I just don't want to participate." When Mike Albert asked me to comment on papers advocating that we abandon or transcend rational inquiry, I refused, and probably would have been wise to keep to that decision. After a good deal of arm-twisting, I will make a few comments, but, frankly, I do not really grasp what the issue is supposed to be.
Many interesting questions have been raised about rational inquiry. There are problems about justification of belief, the status of mathematical truth and of theoretical entities, the use to which rational inquiry is put under particular social and cultural conditions and the way such conditions influence its course, and so on. These, however, are not the kinds of topics we are to address; rather, something about the legitimacy of the entire enterprise. That I find perplexing, for several reasons.
First, to take part in a discussion, one must understand the ground rules. In this case, I don't. In particular, I don't know the answers to such elementary questions as these: Are conclusions to be consistent with premises (maybe even follow from them)? Do facts matter? Or can we string together thoughts as we like, calling it an "argument," and make facts up as we please, taking one story to be as good as another? There are certain familiar ground rules: those of rational inquiry. They are by no means entirely clear, and there have been interesting efforts to criticize and clarify them; but we have enough of a grasp to proceed over a broad range. What seems to be under discussion here is whether we should abide by these ground rules at all (trying to improve them as we proceed). If the answer is that we are to abide by them, then the discussion is over: we've implicitly accepted the legitimacy of rational inquiry. If they are to be abandoned, then we cannot proceed until we learn what replaces the commitment to consistency, responsibility to fact, and other outdated notions. Short of some instruction on this matter, we are reduced to primal screams. I see no hint in the papers here of any new procedures or ideas to replace the old, and therefore remain perplexed.
.
.
.
But as far as I can see, where valid and useful the critique is largely devoted to the perversion of the values of rational inquiry as they are "wrongly used" in a particular institutional setting. What is presented here as a deeper critique of their nature seems to me based on beliefs about the enterprise and its guiding values that have little basis. No coherent alternative is suggested, as far as I can discern; the reason, perhaps, is that there is none. What is suggested is a path that leads directly to disaster for people who need help--which means everyone, before too long.
And from the tomes of Noam no truer words have been spoken, so that even you, oh far left of center one in shabby disguise, should realize:
What is suggested is a path that leads directly to disaster for people who need help--which means everyone, before too long.
So it is written, and so on…
Chertoff: "What we're confronting is an ideological conflict with an extremist world view that I don't think is an accurate representative of Islam, but uses the language or hijacks Islam for an extremist agenda"
Take a twit and stuff him into a wool suit, wrap a slik tie around his neck, and the the bullshirt that froths from his lips almost sounds credible.
Why do we adore these bird brains?
Well Abudulla it was an hour + since I posted and I had almost given up on getting my insult!
I am not into theological debate but on my limited knowledge, the bible does not tell Wellington he can call people trolls but the “holy” Koran does allow you to call him an ape. So as I said, we do not have a problem with that, to muslims we are pigs and monkeys and in the generosity of our hearts we must accept it.
As to,
“Your people” “You drive out” “You demand”
I have posted details of these things before and I am describing what I see at first hand. You post from somewhere in Texas and say I am incapable of interpreting fairly what I see 4 miles away. That makes me a knuckle-dragging bigot? Of course! I forgot, anyone who says anything bad about the followers of the prophet and his RoP is a knuckle-dragging bigot! Logical!
Try these for bigots.
1. “Are there any muslims in the property?” “No but it would be illegal to refuse them”. “Well some muslims are OK but I will not live with Pakistani muslims, they are arrogant, aggressive and cause trouble in the world wherever they go.”
2. “These Pakistanis they do no work, have about 8 kids and drive abound all day in BMW’s”
3. “My last landlord was a Pakistani but I was lucky, he was a good one.” Which would seem to imply he was an exception.
The first remark was from a Sri Lankan, the second a Pole whose friends muslim landlord had collected taxes from them but “forgotten” to pay them, the third an African American. You sure know how to win friends and influence people.
“Fred, remember the Irish and Five Corners New York? China Town? Little Italy? And how about the lynchings of the Italians in New Orleans? Do you remember any of this, or is it in your “suppress because it makes us look bad” section of your mind?”
I think you will find these happened about 150 years ago and things have moved on. However if I am to take this at face value, you agree that muslim immigrants who are/happen to be, violent illiterate farmers should be allowed to behave that way today. I suppose that is only fair but it is a bit rough on the rest of us.
“Learn to live with us as we live with you, this is America, we vote, we pay taxes, and we have rights. We live here and we are never going away, ever. Get along, or move along, it has always been this way in America”
You may find it hard to believe it is the same in the UK. If the Jewish refugees from the Czars programs had stayed Jewish there would be three times as many Jews as there are today. They settled in and found they did not need to be Jews in a laid back tolerant country. Nobody in the UK cares much about what anyone does provided they leave the rest of us alone. This particularly applies to religion which is often lampooned – except of course islam because as a leading satirist said, “That gets you killed”. In common with the rest of the British population I could not give a damn if allah requires you to have a group wank (Amer. jerk off) on top of Mount Snowden in a blizzard. Provided you leave the sheep alone and do not force me/us to join in that is your business.
On second thoughts given you young men’s proven and recorded appetite for rape – to give just one example the muslim 4% of the Danish population supplies 80% of the rapists - we might be better off letting you get at the sheep.
Tell me did,
“the Irish and Five Corners New York? China Town? Little Italy? And “the Italians in New Orleans?
- Go in for rape on this scale? If they did I suppose you will say its OK.
"The Great Inhibition"
Thus, shall the academic fraud
of all things Islam, be henceforth called.
Peace
Abdullah Mikail
P.S. Darcy, for a pirrannah you're kind of nice.
It's spelled "piranha." They are known for their sharp teeth and an aggressive appetite for meat.
Which reminds me of the mass-murdering beheading Religion of Pieces Mohammedans.
'What Chertkoff is confronting is a World View that conflicts with the ideology'.
It is more of that 'Hope and Change' stuff.
Hope for the best and change the facts.
Chertoff, like Rice and a lot of others in this present administration are MORONS, pure and simple. I have no doubt that the Obama crew are going to spout the same Socialist propaganda that "..the American people have nothing worry about from Islam." A lie. Fiction.
Yet, our government insists on mollycoddling the people into thinking that Muslims are just like Americans. Bullcrap. Serge Trifkovic, in his book, "The Sword and the Prophet," proved that Jesus and Mohammed were complete polar opposites and that Mohammed had nothing in common with the prophets of the Old Testament.
It is very sad, today, that TRUTH has been thrown in the trunk and the American people are so ignorant that they themselves cannot see when THEIR government (not "THE" government) is lying to them.
I have tried and tried to explain to people that Islam is a danger to us and to world peace.... and all I get is "they can't all be like that!!!"
God save us from stupidity.
I would hope that Abdullah would be considered correct in his assessment that 9:29 and 8:39 are specific to situation, historic event and place, but this is not a common understanding of those two ayat over history. To do so would require a Reformation and by all dogma and precedent such a monumental change of heart will be unlikely. Something on the order of the destruction of the second temple and a existential threat on the order of the diaspora would need to take place. I have grave concerns for the health of the ummah and the future of Islam as we know it. The people deserve to be saved, but the ideas do not. To change the thinking to the degree necessary will require something world-altering in my estimation.
Peguy - I will go to your link.
Abdullah did you forget to answer my question: Are you a black muslim less than a donkey's penis? Created for hellfire and is the DEVIL? Created black to be a slave to Arabs and Turks (Europeans) you useful idiot.tabari man slavery is allah's will and the slave is you fool.
The trick for readers with Abdullah here is to just ignore his posts, and only read the people who are responding to him. (Thanks to all those who have done the heavy lifting.)
Tom: Thank you for your response. It's a sophisticated and clever one but, of course, that doesn't make it right. It certainly runs counter to what most here at JW would want to see-------an open denunication of Islam as a totalitarian, supremacist, violent-oriented, intolerance-prone belief system (which it is, of course).
I have many times wondered if Bush, Cheney, Rice et al. really believe the soothing platitudes they recite about Islam. You think not and you could be right. But regardless of what ultimatley is in the minds of the big boys, I have to wonder if this pretend game is the wisest course.
First, it's dishonest. Second, it provides no real encouragement to Muslims to reform their damn religion precisely because the religion itself, which needs to be faulted, is not. Third, with each passing year more and more regular folks grasp that there is something deeply wrong with the entire Islamic faith and so public officials continuing to say otherwise erodes confidence in those officials in direct proportion to the greater awareness of Islam's true nature by the body politic. Still, I acknowledge a possible wisdom to the course you still endorse. Hard to say. Islam is deuce difficult to deal with. It is what I have often written here at JW------the "perfect storm" of totalitarian ideologies. I have come to despise it.
Ditto Wellington.
I thought it was interesting that Karl Rove attended the David Horowitz Freedom Center's Restoration Weekend in Florida. Could anything be gleaned from his presence? Or did he restrict himself to left/right politics?
The trick for readers with Abdullah here is to just ignore his posts, and only read the people who are responding to him. (Thanks to all those who have done the heavy lifting.)
Posted by: DenverRodeo
LOL
And Merry Christmas, Denver Rodeo
If Chertoff would just read the damned Koran (and Hadiths) he wouldn't have to wonder.
He would know.
Something the "leaders" in the West are all desperately afraid of achieving:
~Actual knowledge of Islam.
Hey, somebody forward Sayyid Qutb's book about "Islamic World View."
Sharia law is absolute power that corrupts absolutely..."It's an Extremists' World the Moderates just live in it."
Thanks darcy, Merry Christmas to you too.
objective -- if Chertoff read Sayyid Qutb, he's just say he's another "hijacker" who is "twisting" Islam. Chertoff needs a few hammer hits to the old noggin.
Magical thinking.Great.
One of the problems with Chertoff, as with others, is they have are not good with words, and they do not understand how they might reasonably creep up on the truth about Islam, but by degrees, acclimating their audience to accept now this, and now that, and where necessary, being suitably oblique, but never untruthful.
For example, you do not have to come right out and say to the public, without having prepared it, that "[w]hat we're confronting is an ideological conflict with Islam itself, with what Islam inculcates and which too many Muslims, alas, take seriously."
No, because of all the damage that has been done with the "religion of peace" nonsense, all the previous pieties and treacliness and avoidances of the truth, you use synecdoche, and the part here is "Jihad" while the indicated whole is "Islam."
So you start thus:
We are fighting an ideology, the ideology of Jihad. What is Jihad? It is, literally, a "struggle." But the "struggle," in its widest and oldest and truest sense, is that to remove all barriers to the spread, and to the dominance, of Islam, everywhere in the world. The traditional means for such a struggle was combat, or qitaal. In the modern world, however, other means -- that seem to many Muslims, but fortunately not all [keep up for a while these kinds of exculpating little remarks, but with less and less even feigned sincerity until the audience has been prepared, and then such phrases may be dispensed with altogether]-- to be perfectly legitimate, and indeed merely variants on qitaal or combat, include attacks on civilians, on men, women, and children, in office buildings and cafes, in hotels and in restaurants, on streetcorners and in schools and in workplaces and on busses and bus stations, railroads and rail stations, airplanes and airports [and, indeed, there have been attacks by Muslim terrorists at every single one of the places mentioned in this long list, and many will be recalled by the auditors]. We who are the victims of Islamic terrorists know perfectly well, have no difficulty describing such attacks as terrorism, and so it is distressing when we find that some Muslims who do not themselves pariticate in such attacks have described them, justified them, explained them away, that reveals too often the mental gulf that yawns between us and the worldview even of seemingly peaceful Muslims. For the ideology of Jihad appeals to a great many people who do not participate directly in violent Jihad, and there are many other ways to engage in Jihad, toward the exact same goal as those who use violence. And we must recognize that it is not only the means which is a mortal threat to our political and legal institutions, our social arrangements, our solicitude for individual liberties and individual autonomy, for artistic expression and free and skeptical inquiry -- all of which have been developed, over many centuries, in the West, and we cannot, we would be hideously ungrateful to those who left us this legacy, if in a fit of civilizational distraction, we were simply to allow ourselves to let it all go, to avoid confronting the other weapons of Jihad -- the Money Weapon, campaigns of Da'wa, and the demographic conquest which has been openly discussed by Muslims since at least 1974, when at the U.N. itself, in full view of the world, Boumedienne of Algeria announced that the Muslims would indeed conquer Europe through the wombs of Muslim immigrants.
So make no mistake [wink wink nudge nudge time]. We are not fighting the ideology of Islam. That is, we are not fighting those who say the Shahada, say the five canonical prayers, pay the zakat or Muslim charity that is meant for fellow Muslims [make sure the word "charity" is not misunderstood as meaning "charity for all"], refrain from eating until night-time during Ramadan [that's not quite the same, not nearly as taxing, as the Christian fasting], and visit Mecca on the hajj. No, we have no quarrel with that.
But we have a mortal quarrel with those who, within Islam, believe in the duty and right of conducting Jihad against all non-Muslims -- whether Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Confucians, or any others. We do have to take a stand, not against all Muslims, of course, but against those who think that Jihad is justified, and who participate in it, whether directly or indirectly, and whether through terrorism or through other means, and who we have reason to believe cannot be dissuaded from this goal.
So remember: it is not Islam itself, but only all those who believe in Jihad, whom we must oppose. Let's keep that [non-distinction, but how useful] distinction clearly in mind.
__________________________________________
There, that's a start. Chertoff and company can take it from there. Or they can hire me to churn this stuff out for them. God knows I could use the money, and if I am to believe what I read in the papers, it sounds like the good old American government is on its uppers as well.
So, dear American government, can't we make a deal? Try to recognize that had you only taken my advice back in February 2004, and left Iraq promptly, not in order to appease the Camp of Islam but to more effectively sow dissension and weaken the Camp of Islam, you might have saved, in the nearlyfive years since, have saved more than a trillion dollars. Think of all the banks that could have bailed out, not to mentin insurance companies and automobile companies e tutti quanti. And when you see my salary requirements I am sure you can hear the laughter in Washington by the small army of "terrorism experts" who have been fattening and battening on the "war-against-terror: gravy train, wondering what kind of idiot would request so little.
Go ahead. Think about it, dear Pentagon, dear State Department, dear Department of Homeland Security. I'll wait right here for your answer. Oh, I should explain one more thing: I don't work well as part of any "team" and I don't accept supervision. But I assure you, in truthful non-Madovian fashion, that the annual returns will be consistent. The relevant work product, or some of it, can be found at the Archives of this website. I'll stay by the phone.
"Tom: Thank you for your response. It's a sophisticated and clever one but, of course, that doesn't make it right. It certainly runs counter to what most here at JW would want to see-------an open denunication of Islam as a totalitarian, supremacist, violent-oriented, intolerance-prone belief system (which it is, of course)." -Wellington
Please don't get me wrong: I am a supporter of directly calling out and defeating the enemies of Western Civization in the Islamic world by all appropriate means. I'm just suggesting that Secretaries Chertoff, Rice, and the rest of the administration, people of intelligence and good will, have made a very rational, if wrong, decision about how to deal with a difficult problem. I too share your belief that they underestimate the growing will of the American people and thoughtful people throughout the West to confront this problem directly.
For example, lead by the Left, a vast majority in the West supports Gay and Women's rights. Why hasn't there been an effective Government propaganda campaign to leverage this into universal and profound condemnation of unreformed Islam? Why haven't the human rights NGOs taken on the ideology-driven policies of Islamic countries directly, for example in the Darfur genocide? Why hasn't the beer, wine, and spirits industries used their Madison Avenue creativity to make a laughing stock of Islam throughout the developing world?
I have little doubt the wrath and power of the West will be unleashed against the Islamic enemies of the West if there is one more large attack enabled in any way by an Islamic state. I think the terrorists and their state sponsors know this too, and hence their concentration on the Stealth Jihad.
When somebody says that "extremism" is bad, you are pretty well assured that you are listening to someone who has almost no understanding of principles.
The absurdity is obvious.
Extreme health.
Extreme virtue.
Extreme love.
An "extremist world view" ?!?!?!?!?!
How long do our alleged betters expect us to put up with this sort of crap?
Tom: There's much to chew on in your latest post. I respect your sympathy for those in power who have consequences to consider that those who post here at JW have the luxury of ignoring (certitude is often a feature of many who don't have to worry that their words will produce results).
Good point too about the failure by Western authorities to directly and openly challenge the Neanderthal elements in Muslim thinking (though how can that really occur without pointed criticism of Islamic tenets?). But I would add another objection to your defense of the powers that be with their approach so far. It is this: As long as the great pretend game goes on that Islam is fine and that the real problem is that it has been hijacked by extremists (the reality, of course, is that Islam itself is extremist throughout and hijacks weak minds, like the nineteen monsters who perpetrated 9/11), this makes it far harder to ban Muslim immigration to the West. There's no upside to mosques arising in Pennsylvania, California, New York, Florida or, for that matter, in Europe. Once Islam is declared evil, as Marxism and fascism were, then the denial of immigration to the enemy (and yes, Islam is as inimical to America and its Constitution as were Nazism and Communism) becomes a much easier task.
Appreciate your perspective. I hope you provide more of your views here at JW in the future. Be prepared, though, for knocks aplenty.
Oh dear god I wish someone somewhere in the political establishment in the West - or India, for that matter - would screw up their courage and take Our Hugh on board.
Hundreds of thousands of your co-religionists are waging holy war on infidels all around the world”
If it is a justified self defense against aggression, I have no problem with people defending themselves. But have you ever ask yourself why this is so before tripping into the bars of the “because they hate us and our way of life!” anthem? posted by the convert to islam AM
Are you suggesting that the two attacks on the World Trade Center were acts of self-defense by islamic holy warriors? Exactly which islamic country, tribe, or segment of the umma was under siege by U.S. armed forces when those attacks occurred? If you were a patriotic American, you would expect your government to retaliate when your country was attacked. You make it crystal clear that your first loyalty is to islam and the umma, not to America.
Have you discussed your unique interpretations of islamic doctrine with your spiritual advisor? I'm sure he would share my astonishment since your version of islam is entirely Greek to me. I wouldn't call you a liar since I don't know you so I'll just assume that you still have much to learn. And no, you don't have to be a muslim to understand the primitive, barbaric malevolence of islam.
God, what an effort it must take for you to put a happy face on islam, and all for naught. Hope you don't get in trouble for your trouble.
Great thread! I was late checking JW today so joined in late.
Several things going on:
1. AM - I see you've been very busy in the thread with your usual apologist spin, baiting more than your usual into responding. When you have tired of Islam, being a novelty junkie I think you are at heart, you should give some of the Eastern religions a spin, such as Buddhism or Hinduism. I think you'd like them!
2. Tom, glad to see you here. I appreciated your thoughtful comments and look forward to more of your posts. You may be right about official policy purposely downplaying publicly fingering Muslims as terrorists. However, after watching our public officials and the MSM and the way they spun official policy re Islam, I decided they tend to vastly underrate cultural forces and the power they have, and was thereby crediting them with more sophistication and finesse than they deserve. Their main concern in their public statements seems to be to avoid antagonizing the Muslim world. However, at some point they're going to have to start worrying about antagonizing the rest of us (the victims of Islamic aggression) with their patent BS and avoidance of what is glaringly obvious to anyone with access to the news. Of course, as long as they get no feed back from us indicating that we are outraged at their disingenuity, they will continue to pander to the likes of the Saudis (yes, I know about the oil), chase the impossible fantasy of Palestinian peace, and otherwise continue to look on passively as the da'wa tide continues its relentless rise in the West.
3. About Chertoff. Good bye Michael.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLHO5ALkUwo&feature=related
Hey Chertoff: Heck of a job, Brownie!
Chertoff is infuriatingly pathetic.
"There's no upside to mosques arising in Pennsylvania, California, New York, Florida or, for that matter, in Europe. Once Islam is declared evil, as Marxism and fascism were, then the denial of immigration to the enemy (and yes, Islam is as inimical to America and its Constitution as were Nazism and Communism) becomes a much easier task."
I think the best policy would be for the West to wait another 25 to 50 years until there are 100 million more Muslims inside the West; then at that point, we can finally officially declare that Islam is the enemy -- and it will be so much easier to deal with the problem at that point.
/sarc off
From a Muslim Leader,
Well guys, I've spent the good part of the last year on the right wing websites, such as this one, just to get a taste of what you guys are boiling up for the next round of xenophobic mud slinging coming soon to our ‘liberal’ airwaves.
Yeah you guys LOVE to rant - lots and lots of talk.
You know one thing that is quite consistent from both the nuts on here and Spencer (not to say he isn't a nut as well) is the fact that few suggestions are rarely ever brought up.
Now what do you suppose I mean by that?
Well I read all day, here and on Debbie’s site, on Dhimiwatch, on Malkin and on Ann Coulter all sorts of rantings and ravings whilst foaming from the mouth of how much you guys hate all Muslims. And that’s just wonderful.
So I'll tell ya what, I will here and now conceive to all of you that every word of every aforementioned like-minded rightwing "independent" pundit and talking head is absolutely correct no matter how outlandish or fantastic it may sound.
So its all true and you’re all right.
Then what?
I don’t hear any suggestions as to how you guys are going combat these so called ‘jihadists’.
How are YOU going to stop US from rising up and turning this country into a Sharia state?
According to you guys were actively perusing a take over of the entire world.
Were supposedly embedded and behind the curtain of nearly every powerful organization in the entire world – even AIPAC strangely enough!?!
According to Debbie we have control of ICE so it’s useless to get us kicked out of these United States, especially legally.
We, according to you guys, even have dominion over the FBI, so its impossible to get us busted even for REAL terrorist planning – unless we get sloppy I guess?
Apparently we even got our guy in the White House –
Jee Wiz I never knew I was a part of such a powerful group, wish I knew all that BEFORE I paid that lousy parking ticket fine. I shoulda just told the county clerk that “hey don’t you know who I am – I don’t have to pay that fee like the infidels!”
Mabe I’ll call my Muslim brother Obama and ask him to reimburse me the fee.
You know it wasn’t too long ago that before Muslims it was The Communists that people like you where looking for in your soup.
Supposedly they to were in command of every major entity on Earth – what happened? I thought our war against the Communists didn’t go beyond the borders of Afghanistan.
Now I recall there was another minority group – in Europe I believe that was blamed for everyone’s problems, used as a scapegoat and had every nook and crammy of those people’ culture and background picked apart and criticized. What were they called again – OH YEAH, the Jews.
Yeah, how did that turn out anyway?
Now for a bit of honesty from my part – having already noticed that you guys are mostly talk and of little action it’s been quite a relief to me.
In my particular situation I would rather be looked upon as a raving lunatic than be right about what I’ve been warning my fellow Muslims may happen soon.
God Bless America, God Bless the Constitution and God Bless the 2nd Amendment.
As leader of our local Muslim Council the one thing I’ve done the most besides reducing our deficit and organizing our out-reach program is getting everyone of our current and future member’s to fill out a firearm owner identification(F.O.I.D.) card application, learn about, purchase, use and appreciate fire arms.
My argument to doubtful members and other Muslims is usually along the lines of something like this.
A cop is just human like everyone else. They to can one day say “No I will not protect you, because you are Muslim”. A firearm, on the other hand, is just a few pieces of machined metal – if it’s in proper order it will obey your command no matter who you are. Who’s hands would you rather have your life placed in that cop or yourself?
The F.O.I.D policy will always stay in place as long as I am President.
I would say a fair amount, maybe more than half of our congregants believe I am an alarmist and leap at the sight of shadows. For their sake I hope they are right.
I vote this forum's post the best of 2008, hands down. Thanks to all for the thoughts, best of the year so far.
Nothing like our leaders feeding us a line, and knowing it to be such, to bring out the best from the posters here.
Fact, what Chertoff says is leading us to more bombings, killings, and death. Untl we have people willing to taget the enemy, it will only get worse. Every day the focus is not on islam itself, the pressure builds, the world will feel the effects of these statements taken by our leaders.
Those who feel misleading the masses is better than the truth, tell us one professional in your life you will accept the same? Doctor? Lawyer? How long would your world survive?
Islam must be cut at the roots, if it is not, the world will fall to it. Killing followers of islam will not work, nor will removing jihad as a pillar.
The entire structure will, it must fall. The longer the world listens to those who mislead, the darker it is going to get..
I don't see anything wrong with what Chertoff said - except for the waver on the border fence issue; which I think should be militerized to stop illegal drug traffic if nothing else.
The use of the term 'I think' we are dealing with such and such, lets the Lords of the Islamic world know that there is serious doubt in the confidence of our relationship.
That said, Hugh is correct that eventually the 'terror' coin may have to be upgraded to the defcon of 'Jihad'; but maybe it's not the time.
I'm sure it's resistance level has been gauged, and so this card is still in the hand, reluctant to be played.
We are sitting on them now, if we play that card, the polarization may be uncertain as opposed to what we want; but it is the truth. And this polarization which would undoubtably be forced with such rheteric, would clarify our obstacles, and let those on the fence know that now we mean business - as if they shouldn't have known with our expeditionary forces in their back yard.
As it stands, upon the hated Bush leaving office, and the good cop Obama coming in, the face saving slack for our 'friends' is still in place; and new possibilities on the table.
Let's see how the Iranian Nuclear enrichment plays out, and whether or not the west is forced to go hard ball, albeit by proxy. No, we need to play nice until then, and especially after.
I agree with Tom. Sticks and stones break bones, not words. Too much investment is at stake.
Did I just see a shoe go flying past Chertoffs head?
Easy fuwad, I hear ya. Things are tough all over. Weather it my friend, it is what it is, no ones attacking you personally in the flesh. If you're an American, be an American. God be with you this Christmas season.
ps...Expect message board incoming tho.
What we're confronting is an ideological conflict with a fascist world view that Chertoff and his cohorts have yet to figure out. One need only cast an eye over the muslim world and its borders to see the accurate 'representation' of islam in all its gory...
Fuwad:
Your "Muslim under attack" argument is an oft used, unsupported piece of BS. If your "community" paid more attention to the rising brigade of evil doers in the name of Islam popping up all over the world, you would have nothing to fear. The fact that you realize that the game is up and the veil has been lifted from the ugly face of Islam and that the "hijackers" actually represent the true personification of the mad man, Mohhammed, should have you looking in another place to gather your faith as thousands of your coreligionists are doing. Just like the Nazis, force only goes so far and eventually good wins out.
How are YOU going to stop US from rising up and turning this country into a Sharia state?
Fuwad84
I think this one sentence above describes the personality and motive of Muslims in the USA. As I have stated before, the USA is "temporarily out of order". The key word here is "temporary".
AM probably is a nice guy to meet but his thick skin is only surpassed by his thick head.
All Muslims are allowed and encouraged by the Koran to lie to infidels. They place themselves above and superior to all infidels. Therefore, in effect, to have a conversation with a Muslim, is to have a conversation with a sociopathic liar.
So I skip over most all of the dribble and lies from the Muslims here and enjoy greatly all the rest of the great posts placed by everyone, especially darcy. I know they speak words from their heart.
Muslims cannot speak from the heart lest they be ridiculed by other Muslims or maybe they just don't have a heart.
These politicians/ruling elites are terrified of the truth, with the BO team coming in, you will not even hear the the word "islamists, muslim terrorists", it will be like the msm or worse the BBC.. insurgents.. blah blah.. bombed this or that. you not even hear a word about islam.. if you guys think Bush and his GOP were slack.. you aint heard nothin yet.
These politicians/ruling elites are terrified of the truth, with the BO team coming in, you will not even hear the the word "islamists, muslim terrorists", it will be like the msm or worse the BBC.. insurgents.. blah blah..
ZenaWarriorPrincess
90% of the people are fed up with these phony politicians. It is just a matter of time until the people have their say.
Fuwad84
I quite accept that to a decent law abiding patriotic American (no sarcasm intended) enjoying his new religion we are all right wing nut jobs. Like most Americans you think your piece of turf is representative of the whole world but here in Britain “our” muslims - - who are almost all “illiterate farmers”, to quote a Pakistani writer - are a different matter.
Consider the following items I posted recently on another thread and remember these are not cases of “A friend said” or “Someone I know told me”. These are mostly first hand encounters or can be checked on the web,
1. My middle aged neighbours who after an argument with students from an Islamic school had the students descend on them one night and smash every window in their house. Note at the time this was a 99.9% white area and the whole affair was hushed up with community relations paying for the damage.
2. My colleague who arrived in work in an agitated state because his wife came home hysterical from Saturday shopping after being caught up in a muslim “anti-racist” riot. This was his second encounter with Islamic enrichment, a relative having beaten up for being white a year before. We were dishing out 7 different handouts to enrich the lives of a 98% muslim area at the time. The fact that entire families lived in Pakistan for a good part of each year on British Social Security not withstanding.
3. The man with years of satisfactory work who was fired because a muslim “colleague” overheard him say to a newcomer “You do not want to get a house there, there’s trouble between the blacks and the Paki’s”. He was fired because of the companies zero tolerance with racism policy just for saying “Paki” without any abusive words in prefix or suffix. While Pakistanis may call themselves “Paks” for anyone else to say “Paki” in Britain is at least a sacking offence.
4. The last white woman in her street 80 years old, who had her windows smashed 3 times to shouts of “F*** off out of our street you white bitch and sell us your house!” A Polish refugee she had been a forced labourer in Nazi Germany -“Germans baddest people in the world” she said to me tugging her forelock “In Germany I must do this all time to Germans now I must do it all time to Pakistani. What the difference?” She did of course report these attacks to the police but as she told me, “The police say they can do nothing, too many Pakistani.”
5. The quiet middle-aged people, white and black, being harassed out of their homes because “our Asian citizens” wanted them for their families. Note the “White trash and hard men” they left alone.
6. The muslim who spoke so little English that he submitted his calculations for his profits from a petrol station franchise as proof he was unemployed and had no income. They were so terrified of being accused of racism they just sent it back and asked for the correct form.
7. The three teenagers taken into a muslim area by a taxi driver – probably to extort money – who were “hunted like frightened animals”. One escaped, one to their credit was sheltered by a muslim family but the third was left unconscious in the street for 20 minutes before an ambulance came and incidentally he was robbed while he lay dying. His name was Gavin Hopley, you will have to hunt around the web for a posting by his Aunt for the details. No British paper ever printed the full story and while a muslim was charged nobody was ever convicted.
8. The police chief who following demands from the “muslim community” was “retired” for publicly saying “Whites are being beaten so badly and so frequently it is only a matter of time before one of them is killed” It was – see note 7.
9. Paying an “unemployed and deprived” muslim £20,000 to improve the safe house he was using to bring in illegal immigrants and making a good living from it. Passed without comment because they were terrified of being accused of racism. By contrast a white man who was renting a single room was immediately disqualified because he was considered to be running a business.
If that is not enough 5 years ago my late wife was standing quietly in a superstore while I was speaking to a salesman when she called out “Fred! This boy has just punched me!” I turned to see 6 year old Pakistani boy who appeared to speak no English being dragged away by his 9 year old brother. He had just hit her in the stomach which was about as high as he could reach. We were too shocked and embarrassed to say or do anything because our children would never do anything like that.
Tell me, how can I express any degree of concern about these matters without being a “right wing nut job”? Baring in mind as I posted already,
“Nobody in the UK cares much about what anyone does provided they leave the rest of us alone. This particularly applies to religion which is often lampooned – except of course islam because as a leading satirist said, “That gets you killed”. In common with the rest of the British population I could not give a damn if allah requires you to have a group wank (Amer. jerk off) on top of Mount Snowden in a blizzard. Provided you leave the sheep alone and do not force me/us to join in that is your business.”
Regarding your parking ticket, you should move to Britain and you just won’t get any. I was one of a string of drivers held up in one of our muslim areas about 2 months ago by a car parked outside the halal takeaway. It was coming rush hour, it was a “T” junction, the road narrowed at that point, it was within 40m of a controlled crossing - you name the regulation – it broke it. My thoughts were “I do not give a damn who you are that is dangerous” and when a police car happened along I thought “At last!” You know what? The cop made his way slowly past the obstruction like everyone else.
When I thought about it, this did not surprise me too much as 5 years ago the BBC had a reporter join the regional police force to catch racists of all kinds. In 2 years spying his total crop of racists was 11 traffic cops who he trapped into telling him how they discriminated against muslim drivers. They were all fired and the muslims got their fines repaid and letters of apology. I suppose it was the least they could do but the drivers were all guilty as charged.
I note your reference comparing yourselves to the Jews but according to the BBC, attacks on Jews by “Recent arrivals from North Africa” in France are so frequent some of them are moving to Israel. Censorship in the UK is very severe but there are hints that Jewish schools are getting extra money for security. Details are not printed but knowing the area, the schools in question are adjacent to muslim settlements. Do you have a take on that?
“A cop is just human like everyone else. They to can one day say “No I will not protect you, because you are Muslim”. A firearm, on the other hand, is just a few pieces of machined metal – if it’s in proper order it will obey your command no matter who you are. Who’s hands would you rather have your life placed in that cop or yourself?”
No problem in the UK, see Notes 4, 8 and other comments above.
Fred
One of you co-religionists awarded me the title – “A knuckle dragging punum! A pure-unadulterated- knuckle-dragging-shining-example-of-a-bigot at his best.”
Reckon you can do better?
"Now I recall there was another minority group – in Europe I believe that was blamed for everyone’s problems, used as a scapegoat and had every nook and crammy of those people’ culture and background picked apart and criticized. What were they called again – OH YEAH, the Jews."
C'mon Fuad, all good Muslims know that any persecution of the Jews was either warranted or completely exaggerated for Zionist aims. You don't really mean to exploit their history to pity yourself, am I right?
Posted by: Fred at December 22, 2008 6:30 PM
““holy” Koran does allow you to call him an ape. So as I said, we do not have a problem with that, to muslims we are pigs and monkeys and in the generosity of our hearts we must accept it.”
No Fred, it was just a baiting game…if I’m a troll he’s a knuckle dragging ape. As simple as that. : )
The Quran says that the sons of Israel are the Jews, humans descended from humans. There is a report in it on a population of humans that were punished by being turned into apes and pigs, and they died in three days leaving no descendants. They were simply destroyed.
You are projecting your prejudices, but this is just another one of the things that makes you the shining example.
Peace
Abdullah Mikail
fuwad84,
Some of the posts here are pure hyperbole, but many, if not most, of the opinions are based on either personal experience or an intelligent reading of current trends in the world and being alarmed by what they see happening. As several posters here have noted, most in the West are perfectly willing to accommodate any and all religions in a spirit of brotherhood. The exception is Islam. Why to you think that is? Is it because of a meme that just happened to get started by accident, for no reason whatsoever? After all, aren't Muslims are really just peaceful, nonviolent people who just want to get along? Most of them undoubtedly are, in the same sense that most people everywhere are peaceful and nonviolent. But cultures are not all alike, and it is the cultural differences between Islam and the West that are the focus of this forum. Conflating what ordinary people everywhere are like with characteristics of their embedding culture is one of the most common mistakes one finds in discussions such as this. I think most people are unaware of this profound distinction, but some are and purposely try to take advantage of the ignorance of the rest to confuse the issue.
I'm sorry that, as a Muslim, you may feel put on the spot because of all this negative attention and may feel you are being deemed guilty via association because of the actions of your coreligionists. But don't complain to us because we complain about them. You write intelligently, if somewhat defensively and with a smattering of belligerence, but as others here probably have noted you have not been deluged with death threats. And, as a Muslim, you know the same courtesy would not be extended to any of us had we displayed your sentiments in some of the more fanatical Islamic countries in the world, or even some of the Muslim dominated wards in the UK, France, Germany or the U.S.
As for your asking for positive solutions instead of merely complaining, followed by your taunt that eventually Shariah will rule the U.S. and that nothing can stop it, you are revealing that you are a relative newcomer to the West who hasn't yet cleared himself of the Islamic fog in his brain sufficiently to perceive the underlying structure and strength in our system. As for our complaints, even a rudimentary understanding of psychology tells you that complaints are always a prelude to action if the complaints are not addressed. Eventually the tipping point will be reached where proactive measures will be taken to address the problems of Muslim undermining of the freedoms that you, yourself, enjoy. Of course, unless you have visions of being part of the new ruling order that would arise under Shariah, you would not object to seeing the strengthening the laws that keep overt religion out of the court room or Congress, including making Shariah law secondary to secular law. You would be in favor of this, wouldn't you fuwad84?
Posted by: A_Plague_on_Both_Houses at December 22, 2008 6:16 PM
I am not disagreeing; I am asking you for the context of the fatwa. If he were asked “What if they invaded…” well the answer would be “should be fought.”
Can you quote the section from Ibn Rusd that you are commenting on so we can read it all?
To answer your "9:29" question, education is the key.
We are going to raise American Muslim Scholars.
A person who is radical can not be “un-radicalized”, just the same as most people who come to JW will never change their bias regardless of what happens.
Raising the American youth in a better way on all sides of the fence…there is no “us” versus “them”, and no one is out to get anyone else. Investing in this kind of thinking is the major problem we all have, and , unfortunately, there are those with a financial incentive to propagate it.
They know who they are, “chaching.”
Peace
Abdullah Mikail
AM:
Yes we know the story of the Jews who were turned into apes and pigs. Strangely the illogicality of calling these insults today, as you note, does not seem to deter Muslims who wish to hurt people.
Fred,
your witness statements are valuable and significant as a warning to us all. I am lucky to be able to live in an area which is mostly free of such unpleasant behaviours. Mostly free of Muslims too, uncoincidently.
I look forward to your future posts.
Posted by: A_Plague_on_Both_Houses at December 22, 2008 7:24 PM
My description of the "9:29" issue is not an uncommon understanding, it is the one that does not get into the “screamer press”.
Another common mis-understanding that does not get in the press?
The strongest advice in the Quran is to marry one and only one wife.
There is an exception with an allowance for cases as need to marry up to four with a very stern warning that the conditions of doing so are nigh impossible, being “fair among them” and a warning “there is no way to be fair among two women”.
But what is blasted all over the press in a negative characterization?
Peace
Abdullah Mikail
Eastview: Your 11:11 A.M. post is a fine one. Whether it's this character, fuwad84, or Abdullah Mikhail or whatever Muslim, it's crystal clear time and time again a special type of Islamic Kool-Aid has been drunk by these guys. Whatever noxious elements about Islam are pointed out to them, such as Mohammed in his fifties having intercourse with a nine-year old girl or the fact that open criticism of Islam can lead to injury or death, they have a pat answer.
For instance, when I posted on this thread yesterday that one of the reasons I oppose Islam it that it doesn't allow for the open criticism I just mentioned above, AM, true to form, responded by saying there is a right way to criticize or words to that effect. Yeah, but what if I don't want to do it the prescribed Muslim way? What if I want to say publicly that Islam is the greatest retrograde force in the world, that Islam is spiritual totalitarianism, that Mohammed was almost certainly a psychopath and so on? What then? Well, then I'm in big trouble with Muslims, ain't I? Not with Christians or Buddhists or Jews or many others if I severely criticize their belief systems. Just with Muslims.
Funny how every totaltiarian system claims it promotes freedom, but when you do or say something that the totalitarian is offended by, then they turn around and maintain that you have abused freedom and therefore can be silenced (assuming they have the power to do so which Muslims are working on in the dar-al-harb; they already have it in the dar-al-Islam). Same old same old. All totalitarian systems operate on the same principles and one of those chief principles is the need to crush true freedom. And that's one of the principal reasons why no totalitarian system can prevail long term and prosperously (though it can languish unproductively for centuries as Islam has). Because real freedom is absent from such a system. Totalitarians never get this. There's a lot they don't get. But, man, they sure know they are in possession of the truth. Right.
Please, everyone, ignore Abdullah.
He is so firmly convinced of the truth of his belief, that he either ignores negative evidence or argues around the issue.
He has said that the Qu'ran and Muhammad are perfect, so he must think that having one's critics assassinated is excellent conduct, And apparently he supports having sex with 9-year olds.
Also raping slaves is just peachy, as far as he is concerned.
Plus, he supports stoning as a "deterrent."
He has said that Islam has nothing to do with terrorism, despite what OBL, the Fort Dix Six, and just about every single terrorist has to say.
He also said that Islam eliminated slavery, despite the fact that it is rampant almost exclusively in the Muslim world.
He ignores every bit of actual real-world data, insists there's a real meaning in the Qu'ran APART FROM THE ACTUAL WORDS, and if only we knew the real context of things, we would see the sublime beauty and truth behind the violent, hateful, discriminatory, supremacist, and oppressive words of the Qu'ran.
He is, in a word, delusional, so, this is not someone you really want to have an argument with; it is just a waste of time.
"...a special type of Islamic Kool-Aid has been drunk by these guys."
Posted by Wellington
It is rather amazing, isn't it, that such fanaticism exists? My study of Islam began, in fact, with a desire to understand what force led 100,000 Muslims to line up in rows and simultaneously prostrate themselves. If such a force could be understood at a fundamental psychological/psychosocial level and harnessed to useful purposes it would be a wonderful thing, I reasoned. Any teacher would kill to know the key to this devotion. I sometimes have trouble keeping the attention of five students in my advanced theoretical physics course, and would welcome any insights that would help grab them by their privates and get them to focus. (To any Muslim lurkers here, sorry, the key ain't the 72 virgins, and if the key is religious, there are far more sophisticated religions out there than Islam. There's nothing at all superior about Islam for which better things didn't already exist, or haven't since been devised, your self-proclaimed exhortations notwithstanding, during the past 1350 years.)
Of course, Islam isn't the only instance of mass psychosis leading to fanaticism in history. But it's the current one that's threatening everyone and ought to be subject to detailed rational analysis as a form of mass delusion. What's needed is a way to distill out the essence and ditch the baggage (same is true for all religions, in fact).
Eastview, I have had the same questions about Islam. My guess is that it is the "brotherhood mixed with belief in their religion taught to them at a very early age. This combination hooks them for life.
I would say your guess is a good one, Spot on. I believe it was Arthur Schopenhauer who observed that any kind of nonsense can be believed fervently and thoroughly if one instills it in the child early enough. This wouldn't account for converts to Islam, though they almost without exception seem to be losers in one way or another, but it would account for the vast number of those who have been Muslim through the centuries up to and including the present time.
Posted by: Mo at December 23, 2008 11:56 AM
“Please, everyone, ignore Abdullah.”
Or in other words, if someone disagrees with your evidence and produces evidence to the contrary ignore them.
Think of a bug zapper Mo.
And your opinions on what you say are not mine…it’s what you say. It’s called projecting a negative bias on to others…the whole “rape” thing you are hung up on (are you a voyeur perchance? That would explain a lot…)
“He also said that Islam eliminated slavery, despite the fact that it is rampant almost exclusively in the Muslim world.”
It has, those who are still practicing it are not and have not followed the teaching of Islam. I proved the ideal example to you after the battle of the trench in what Uthman did…but your negative bias overrides any intelligence you may have.
The Islamic legislation restricting it and the paths to freedom and the limitations were all placed there for a purpose. Shafii Jurisprudence no longer even translates into English the rules on slavery…it is obsolete.
“Delusional?”
You are pulling my leg.
Are you holding my leg?
Oh, no that was not literally stated it was figuratively stated…
DID YOU LEARN ANYTHING ABOUT MEANING AND WORDS?
Truth
Abdullah Mikail
Posted by: Wellington at December 23, 2008 11:47 AM
Your negative characterization is simply wrong.
If you have in your mind information that is wrong why should I even be concerned if I don't fall in with you and agree?
Whether you think you are free and independent in thought is beside the matter…it is not your fault because that is the way you have been programmed to think…you have been misinformed.
Many of the problems you perceive are just like this.
You have your opinion, you think I should think the same as you…but you base your opinion on faulty information and smear campaigns as old as the issue itself.
“Yeah, but what if I don't want to do it the prescribed Muslim way?”
That’s fine, say whatever you like…criticism is different than making derogatory slanderous comments…that is just plain ugliness, and there are people who take dire offence to it and may become pretty ugly with you as well.
I am tolerant and don’t care about your opinions…your facts, yes, opinions? No.
You will have your own opinion despite any facts I point out that you hold which are wrong, and current opinions I see expressed here in spades are usually based upon the emotional group think mentality.
Peace
Abdullah Mikail
While many Muslims may not hurt me if I openly say that Mohammed was a fraud and Islam is just awful across the board, many Muslims would. Many. Almost no Christian, Buddhist, Jew, Zoroastrian, Sikh, etc. would threaten me with bodily harm (or through legal avenues seek to silence me) if I said very negative things about their religion. The single greatest reason why so many non-Muslims have become so resentful of Islam is that so many of Islam's practitioners resort to threats and violence when even mild criticism of their religion occurs (e.g., the Danish cartoons incident).
It's not all the stupid tenets in Islam that most provokes non-Muslims. It's the intolerance and violence which does. Anyone who maintains that Islam produces no more violent extremists than does any other religion can be dismissed on the spot as a fool or a liar. The overwhelming tendency of Islam to produce violent, intolerant believers is the chief reason why Islam has come to be despised by untold millions across the earth. A strong secondary reason for deep distaste of Islam worldwide is that Muslims wallow in self-pity ad nauseam.
Posted by: Wellington at December 23, 2008 1:54 PM
Well then I am glad to blog with you on the subject.
I am sure, absolutely sure, that world wide there are millions upon millions of people who despise us for simply being American…and why is that do you suppose that is so?
Peace
Abdullah Mikail
As Dennis Prager has said, the single greatest reason why America is hated is because lies are told about America and believed. No other nation has shed the blood of its young men for the freedom of others as has America. Iraq now has a shot at freedom and prosperity only because of America. And yet still America is hated, which leads to the second greatest reason why America is despised-------stupidity.
Abdulla I am not really bothered what insults you exchange with wellington nor what you call me. It seems to have escaped your attention that I did not call you anything. I am so little concerned that I shall sign off all my future posts as,
Fred
A knuckle dragging punum! A pure-unadulterated- knuckle-dragging-shining-example-of-a-bigot at his best.
Title awarded by Abdullah Mikail true son of the prophet mohammed in Dec 2008.
Regarding pigs and monkeys your views on the following link might be enlightening http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=5&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.secularism.org.uk%2Fislamicschoolinlondonbehavedasth.html&ei=MjpRSbzgJeTSjAfsqvGwDw&usg=AFQjCNFzy-iNv3yUcd_l5yEYQSfA5sqZaQ&sig2=GzbWn4TEFY4iRXFL-M2Oug
This is interesting too,
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=2&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thisislondon.co.uk%2Fstandard%2Farticle-23440080-details%2FSaudi%2Bschool%2B%2527copied%2Brace%2Bhate%2Btext%2Bbooks%2Bbefore%2Bshredding%2Bthem%2527%2Farticle.do&ei=MjpRSbzgJeTSjAfsqvGwDw&usg=AFQjCNHOxnPe-ULfUwyWUeiHuMGr28csQw&sig2=w84xxc0YPBhYGtKUrdT9kg
Fred
A knuckle dragging punum! A pure-unadulterated- knuckle-dragging-shining-example-of-a-bigot at his best.
Title awarded by Abdullah Mikail true son of the prophet mohammed in Dec 2008.
Prophet Muhammad (phony-prophet is upon him) is burning in hell as we speak. Defending him and his "religion" is for the fools of this world, and for those who will meet with the same fate.
Choose wisely whom you will follow.
Posted by fuwad84:
Now for a bit of honesty from my part – having already noticed that you guys are mostly talk and of little action it’s been quite a relief to me.
In my particular situation I would rather be looked upon as a raving lunatic than be right about what I’ve been warning my fellow Muslims may happen soon.
God Bless America, God Bless the Constitution and God Bless the 2nd Amendment.
...fill out a firearm owner identification(F.O.I.D.) card application, learn about, purchase, use and appreciate fire arms.
My argument to doubtful members and other Muslims is usually along the lines of something like this.
A cop is just human like everyone else. They to can one day say “No I will not protect you, because you are Muslim”. A firearm, on the other hand, is just a few pieces of machined metal – if it’s in proper order it will obey your command no matter who you are. Who’s hands would you rather have your life placed in that cop or yourself?
The F.O.I.D policy will always stay in place as long as I am President.
I would say a fair amount, maybe more than half of our congregants believe I am an alarmist and leap at the sight of shadows. For their sake I hope they are right.
Replace "Muslim" at various places with "friend", "U.S. citizen", or "liberal", and you have a fair description of the argument I use, or attempt to use, to convince my friends who believe human civilization has "progressed" passed the need for private firearm ownership to read, learn, and rethink their position. I get roughly the same results.
Regarding your question:
I don’t hear any suggestions as to how you guys are going combat these so called ‘jihadists’.
How are YOU going to stop US from rising up and turning this country into a Sharia state?
You are actively participating in the process at this moment. Raising awareness and encouraging governmental policy change is an essential part of retaining our open, free society.
Our agreement to live by a common set of secular law, applied equally to all segments of society, has been key to the relative stability and social flexibility this country has shown over its history. Keeping the power of the state focused on pursing violations of those laws, threats to our individual liberty, and threats to our system of government make the whole process possible.
So, you don't need to worry, or if it's the case, anticipate, a call for a lawless rampage against Muslims from this site. It would be counter productive to the whole idea of maintaining a civil society. Still, I doubt the majority of the American public would accept, for any length of time and especially in the name of civility, the kind of widespread, open aquiescience of policy makers and law enforcement to the intimidation that Fred describes above. Simply put, if the perceived threat by any group outweighs the government's ability or commitment to enforce the law and protect the population, the system begins to unravel. Just like you, most people feel that if the government can't, or won't protect them, they will protect themselves. This applies to any threat, whether it's violence coming across the border associated with drugs or religious views.
(As a side note; drug violence against civilians and the police in Mexico is a perfect example of what the situation in the U.S. could look like without the Second Amendment.)
It doesn't take a very astute observer to travel across the United States and see that people from all over the world have successfully integrated into American society while retaining unique cultural traditions in their individual communities. But keeping "culture traditions" that conflict with civil law or our system of government, or restrict other's freedoms, is a prescription for disaster. That, it seems to me, is the beauty the "melting pot" versus the delusion of "multiculturalism".
So here's to hoping both of us, years from now, are sitting peacefully in our rockers, and with our friends, laughing at ourselves and what used to be our concerns.
Abdullah the convert to a racist religion called Islam/ How can any American black belong to a religion that calls Dr. King an ape lower than a donkey's penis, ugly, nappy headed, pug-nosed abed and a coward.(Towson University in Baltimore, Maryland courtesy of the Muslim Student Association) Abdul Musa the black gorilla as men who look like Musa are called by Arab Muslims. Muslims who live under freedom say nothing as Arab Muslims sell black girls for $13 each for sex by old rusty men. Boys too. Traitors are what infidels call them now. They still have slavery today as slacvery is Islamic and you know it. The reason you dont respond to my requests is that you are shame of Allah, Muhammad and yourself for joining a racist religion of the moon god. NOD was the African moon-god. You aint no Arab! Your name if slavery!
Fort Dix is not racist! Why! all are white!
SLICK. RAMADAN BELONGED TO THE Hindus, not Islam. Sabeans had it first!
What I'm getting here is that most Muslims, apparently are complete DUMB ASSES.
I mean, when millions upon millions can't seem to understand their religion correctly...
When scores of imams and actual Islamic schools teach an incorrect version of Islam...
When entire countries, supposedly Islamic (with even that word in the the name of the country) allow or even encourage completely un-Islamic practices like slavery, honor killing, suicide bombings, hatred of Jews and other infidels...
When apparently even some of the earliest commentators and biographers got elements completely wrong,,,
When apparently even Muhammad and the Qu'ran itself teach the wrong thing...
I can only conclude that the vast majority of Muslims are complete bone-headed dumbasses!
With the exception of Abdullah, of course!
Posted by Mo Foe,
... when millions upon millions can't seem to understand their religion correctly...
I can only conclude that the vast majority of Muslims are complete bone-headed dumbasses!
Just another unintended, and probably unanticipated, consequence that results when officials attempt to overthink a situation, instead of just dealing with the problem in a straightforward manner. Islamic history, theology, and the statements of Jihadists are not closely held secrets. They can accessed from any computer or in any bookstore, often displayed prominently in a superior position on the shelves!
So, officials have put themselves in the awkward position of forcing the public to come to your conclusion, or the conclusion that the officials are "complete bone-headed dumbasses", or both.
Abdullah and all of the dumb behind ghetto prisoners cornered inside of a prison to convert to a religion that call black men stupid, UGLY, nappy headed, gorillas, pug nosed abeeds. How dumb abdullah. Dr. King was called a house nigga, ebonically speaking, Malcolm X was one who said it. He was a light skinned black man with red hair, and he thought he died and went to Paradise, when no black men are allowed in Paradise. Only white men go to Paradise to get 72 big breasted white women and 28 white boys. Allah aka Muhammad said so after he said all are the same. (smile) then he smiled and saw another little baby named Umm and desired her to play with. 33,000 times in Islam it says kill. Abdullah, the slave of Allah the war is on. Being a traitor is worst than being a eating a pig if you still believe in Moses' Law. God made the pig and said GOOD. Jews were the only ones told not to eat the pig,for diets only, not Arabs. Arabs were around before any Jews, but GOD picked Abraham, a Hebrew, a man from which the Israelites came from, not Sabeans and Arabic Bedoins.
Peace
Abdullah Mikail
sick of seeing the bs of peace from this babadullah,
he has the general pat answers from the list of " poor me you guys are mean to muslims". like to see if he can live in a real muslim sharia country and see how well he does. its so easy to go on about how good islam is when living in the West and protected from your own kind. yeah mikail you are the coward who cannot make it on your own in any sharia country. you can go to hell you two faced liar.
I am sure, absolutely sure, that world wide there are millions upon millions of people who despise us for simply being American…and why is that do you suppose that is so?
Peace
Abdullah Mikail
Posted by: Abdullah Mikail [TypeKey Profile Page] at December 23, 2008 2:00 PM
I suppose that is so because they are ENVIOUS but I really do not give a damn. Ashamed to be an American, are you? The majestic kingdom of Saudi Arabia beckons. A few years in that lovely paradise on earth is just what you need to bone up on islamic theology.
ABDULLAH! When will you realize that the citations you quote from the Bible are all thousands of years ago - not applicable to this age? Humanity (at least most of us) have risen above the idiotic, cruel, mindless crap that you espouse. Don't quote the Old Testament anymore! You completely miss the golden thread of spirituality and goodness and life and hope that holds the Bible together. The New Testament is the Christian's guide and it is based on the golden thread found between the lines of the Old Testament. Sure we Christians make mistakes but at least we try to live a good life here so we are more likely to find joy in heaven. Your only entry to heaven is based on killing infidels, destroying families, observing the wicked Surahs that require your obedience. We Christians feel sorry for you ABDULLAH MICKAIL!!!
Abdullah said Muslims have the right to defend themselves. Well they move into someone else's land, then complain as they try to take over. They get their holy behinds beaten and then woder why! Well infidel dont want you around them defending their right to blow up malls, have sex with ababies, spew hate of Jews, Christians and blacks, while converting them in prison to start a race war. Spies are everywhere abdullah. Right in your mosque to keep you STUPD brain dead mobots from starting a race wAr taking off your buirqas and your long shirts, and the arabic types changing their names to pretend they are white then while leaving the ugly nappy headed men like abdullah behind to die like a pig art slaughter time. After all the Arabs are Caucasians and no way will Imam Musa or you abdullah be taken for a white man nor a mixed arab unless you live in sudan. INFIDEL BLACKS WILL SUPPORT THE KKK THAN YOU, AT LEAST THE KKK ARE AMERICAN!
To say Michael Chertoff is incompetent and ineffective is like saying Manute Bol is tall and thin.
Amazing how abdullah never responds to my requests about what islam says about people who look like his ugly raisin headed pug nosed behind. abdullah you and all like you are traitors to join such insane nonsense. KKK said the same mess about blacks as islam does and yet you join islam. turn white and become a nazi or a kkk. Islam uses black useful idiots when necessary like castrating other blacks and sexing their babies. (See Roots)I am calling you out abdullah, if allah can save you. Allah didnt save Muhammad from the poison given to him by a girl whose father and husband he had just killed and demanded sex the same night. Aisha the baby wife of Muhammad lost all of her hair when Prophet Muhammad "thighed" her at 6 years so she said.
Dr. King was called a house nigga by Malcolm X and his Arab cohorts and Obama also. You are a traitor abdullah! Treason is your name, abdullah "treason" M.N. Black infidels will fight back, and we have a right to fight black fools as other fools. Arabs made white slavs mamluks and black like you abeeds or zunja (Arabic word for nigga) Takruni is a low lifed nigga)
Thank you to those who have replied to my somewhat sarcastic, yet somewhat serious, comment.
To clear up a few things let me start by telling everyone a little bit about myself.
My name is Fouad Rashid Al-Azim. I was born in these United States so I don’t appreciate being called a foreigner by some who are probably much younger than I am and therefore have been an American for a shorter period of time.
As most of you, but not all, have probably figured out my ‘taunts’ are mostly sarcastic and based on the lunatic ratings of the far-radical right.
I do feel that a comparison of early 20th century European Jews and the Western Muslims of the early 21st century is a fair one and scarily similar at that.
The European Jews where looked at as ‘barbarians’,’ less than human’ and followed a ‘cult religion’ who’s history and ancient text was disseminated, exaggerated and therefore exploited. If you read nearly any European political or philosophical literature from Martin Luther all the way up to the Holocaust denial laws you’ll see all sorts of fantastic stories and accusations about the Jewish Kabal, the blood cookies, human sacrifices and the take over of the entire Eurasian super continent through usury (credit interest).
Most of us, even the educated, like to act as if the Holocaust was just some sort of strange anomaly in human history. As if just at a snap of a finger SUDDENLY the Germans started killing Jews and other minorities considered ‘genetically inferior’.
A mass genocide never just happens, how you say, over night, never in history has it and I doubt it ever will.
When you read or watch early and pre 20th century books, articles, stories, movies even ads – what really strikes you is not just the general negative attitude towards the Jews but the general acceptance of hatred towards someone because they are a Jew, even if they did nothing wrong what’s so ever.
They[the Jews] were told by the influential writers and pundits at the time that even if they themselves did nothing wrong, that they should be made to pay some sort of reparation and prove to their fellow countrymen that they are innocent of wrong doing.
Why? Because after all they were considered ‘guilty by association’. They were made to pay taxes for being Jews and had to account for every item and source of income they owned – and prove that they didn’t gain any of it through usury.
That’s how it started and we all know were it went from there on.
Many of us, such as me, like to use the phrase “never again”, referring to the Holocaust. But again its goes along the line that we like to think that one moment the mass hatred which let to the mass killings of Jew’s was there and than it was gone.
The record shows quite clearly that it’s not the case.
I feel strongly, as I have yet to see anything to convince me otherwise, that same attitude is starting to, once again, boil over and take hold of even politically moderate people.
I’ll go to plenty of the right-wing blogs but it won’t be just the blogs I read it’ll be the comments. Because that’s when you REALLY get a good gauge of peoples general feelings.
If I can diverge for a bit to prove my point even further. The internet, along with the protection of free speech, is truly a wonderful thing. I mean we have free speech now in real life but you and I wouldn’t say half the things we have on our minds to the people those thoughts are aimed towards.
In real life there are consequences for saying certain things, even if your granted that freedom by the constitution. If you are seen saying something particularly polarizing your person(your name, face, who you are) are labeled as such. Most of you wouldn’t dare go up to a group of black gentleman and call them the n-word; you might get jumped at worst but labeled a racist…at best.
In real life, once labeled, you might have to move, quit your job and get new friends – maybe even change your name, if you ever wish to live a normal life. Whereas in the internet the largest social liability you have is your handle which you can change in a matter of minutes. Because of that lack of social accountability it would really seem that people can be much more honest with their various thoughts than otherwise would be in real life, this of course is assuming you don’t have a Stalinist like administrator.
This is both a wonderful thing and a very scary one. People on the net can say what ever they please no matter how hateful, or even factually inaccurate it is. Grant it I to feel that the mainstream media is jipping us in favor of their advertisers and board members – they are a corporation to after all – however at the very least they self-censor hurtful and extremely offensive material. You don’t get that with the internet. You can read about and comment on what ever is on your mind – and that’s where I’ve started to get concerned.
More and more especially after the polarizing election of 2004 and the economic downturn of ….well since 2001 it seems that more and more people are venting and although Blacks and Hispanics do get some of the finger pointing its doubtful anything will ever come out of it seeing how as they make up a considerable number of the population.
In the last couple of years there’s really been an explosion of anti-Muslim right-wing hate sites, yes HATE-SITES, anyone who espouses the value of hating someone based on where they came from rather than who they are is a hate monger.
I feel that when you alienate innocent people it does 2 very negative things.
First it tears the very fabric of this country apart – to say that a law abiding, hard working, morally upright Muslim is somehow undermining the supreme law of this land because of his religion.
Second, it just makes the job of terror recruiters much easier – all they have to do is point to websites like this one(in all fairness Spencer did say that he doesn’t hate all Muslims, but I feel that you are best defined by the company you keep) and people like you guys and say “hey look they want to kill you, they want to put us in camps and wage war against our people and our way of life – we cant let that happen”.
I’m going to end my rant here realizing that I’m all over the place with this comment yet my carpotunnel syndrome is acting up. Luckily I’m not submitting it as an academic thesis.
I’m not naïve enough to believe I can change any minds on here or even be accepted as an equal on this forum.
However if I am shown a decent amount of respect, which I will return 10 fold, I will regularly contribute to this website.
I feel the best and most intellectually enlightening discussion of any issue is through a broad spectrum of idea’s and opinions.
Take care and a Merry Christmas – yes we can say it, they’re just words to us after all – kind of like “excuse me” or “bless you” – what ever your religion it’s just having good manners.
Welcome fuwad84, I do appreciate you bravery in posting here.
"In the last couple of years there’s really been an explosion of anti-Muslim right-wing hate sites, yes HATE-SITES, anyone who espouses the value of hating someone based on where they came from rather than who they are is a hate monger."
I think you misunderstand this site. This has nothing to do with "hate" or bias, especially not about hating a person based on where they come from, but bringing to light the fascist elements of Islam. Lumping this site in with other "right-wing" hateful sites you may have seen is the opposite of helpful, and frankly hypocritical. Nothing I have ever read on this site from the topic posts has been hateful against Muslims. AS Ralph Infidel said, there are "no calls to rampage against Mulsims".
"I’m not naïve enough to believe I can change any minds on here or even be accepted as an equal on this forum."
I'm not sure what you're trying to change our minds to. To not hate Muslims? I sure don't, and I don't think Mr. Spencer and Mr. Ibrahim don't either. Now, the ideology of Islam itself is a whole other thing. That I do hate.
"This is both a wonderful thing and a very scary one. People on the net can say what ever they please no matter how hateful, or even factually inaccurate it is."
If you think something being reported here is false, then please point it out. If you don't think things being said here is false, then why do you have a problem with this site?
"First it tears the very fabric of this country apart – to say that a law abiding, hard working, morally upright Muslim is somehow undermining the supreme law of this land because of his religion."
Except the fascist elements ARE in there. Sure, there are nominal, peace- and democracy- loving Muslims but they are not peace- and democracy- loving because of the tenets of Islam, but despite it.
Anyway, welcome to the site. I'm sure if you are honest and open minded and willing to look at the roots of the problem of Islamic Fascism we can have an enlightening discussion. I do sincerly hope you have a peaceful new year.