"Pakistan refuses to hand over suspects to India" -- from this news article
The Pakistani government of "moderate" Asif Ali Zardari has thus announced it has no intention of handing over any of the those suspected terrorists, now living freely in Pakistan, whose names were given to it, not for the first time, by the government of India.
But this response, this refusal by Pakistan to honor, after the Mumbai murders and mayhem, a most justified request by India, the repeated victim of Muslim terrorism (much of it, as in Kashmir, clearly coming from Pakistan), infuriates, but does not disappoint. For it was perfectly predictable. Only the naive American government, and perhaps some in the Indian government, would ever have allowed themselves to have thought it possible for a Muslim state, run of, by, and for Muslims, even with a few smooth and plausible anglophones -- ah, those Ispahani girls! -- at the top, could ever have handed over these men. Why, that would be like an Arab country surrendering a known Arab terrorist to Israel. It would be like Lebanon not holding a celebration for child-murderer Samir Kuntar -- you didn't really think the Muslim Arabs would refrain from honoring Samir Kuntar as a hero, did you?
Get real. About Islam. About Islam's effects on the minds of men. And since most men everywhere are molded by their beliefs, and most people are irredeemably primitive to begin with, when that belief system is as hate-filled, violence-filled, aggressive, and at the same time offers the Complete Regulation of Life and a Total Explanation of the Universe, thus relieving so many of the pain of thought, this leaves no room for independent moral judgment (for Allah Knows Best). This is a belief system that stunts mental growth by discouraging all attempts at free inquiry or discussion, and that punishes, by death, those who dare to "blaspheme" in any way Islam, and to punish with death those who dare, openly, to leave it. Well, in societies suffused with Islam, the Total Belief-System of Islam, what do you expect? What can you expect, either from Pakistan, or from the Arabs in the Arab-populated lands? For Pakistanis, like the Arabs, and unlike the Kurds, Berbers, and even the Iranians, have no alternate identity to remember, or cling to, or revive. They have, you see, only Islam.
And that is why no government of Pakistan, none, will ever give up Muslims charged by Infidels with doing what Muslims are encouraged to do by their texts and their tenets, and are honored for so doing. No, no Pakistan government could possibly give them up, because that would be an offense against Islam. They can't. They won't. They can only be brought low, by having all that unending American aid cut off, all resupply of Pakistan's military ended, and American missiles pointed right at wherever those nuclear weapons are believed to be. And let India do what it must, without any further public announcements of what it might do, which merely makes the members of this or that terrorist group in Pakistan scurry away, able to live to mount other attacks, another day.
Seeing Pakistan for what it is not and can never be has been a mistake of American foreign policy since the days of the Dulles brothers, who fell for that "Islam is a bulwark against Communism" line, and who found, as did so many American generals, the Pakistani military to be composed of fine terry-thomased moustached fellows, some of them no doubt graduates of Sandhurst, and so much finer, as fellows, than those oily Left-Book-Club bandungisant tiersmondisant leaders of India, Jawaharlal Nehru and that practically bolshevik Brahmin Krishna Menon, with his superior airs.
The Pakistanis have had a long run in Washington. They even had it right up through the present Bush Administration, that has idiotically lavished aid upon Pakistan -- some $30 billion in military and economic aid and debt relief since 2001 -- on the assumption that the Pakistani government really was "our ally in the war on (Islamic) terror." But it isn't. It has been playing a game, sometimes putting on shows of military activity, sometimes even encouraging signs of terrorism so as to increase American aid, sometimes warning Al Qaeda and Taliban fighters of impending American strikes, sometimes helping to foment civilian fury at those Infidels. Oh, meretricious and endlessly mendacious Pakistan. Now its spokesman is that smooth man, Husain Haqqani, who likes to point to all of his plausible articles, published in the West, that seem to deplore terrorism, but which never get to the point, the pith, the essence of it all, that explains why it would be folly to continue to support and still worse, give more and more aid to the government of Pakistan.
What's that thing that Husain Haqqani keeps ignoring, keeps hoping no one will notice? Oh, that's simple.
It's Islam. Islam, Islam, Islam.
It would be like Lebanon not holding a celebration for child-murderer Samir Kuntar -- you didn't really think the Muslim Arabs would refrain from honoring Samir Kuntar as a hero, did you?
Some time ago I translated an al-Jazeera article "celebrating" Dalal Mughrabi, the Palestinian woman who was released at the same time as Samir Kuntar. The article was bizarre ...especially the comparison between Dalal and the Virgin Mary. For anyone interested, it is at:
http://staringattheview.blogspot.com/2008/07/tale-of-two-women.html
Unfortunaly, I knew that it was a foregone conclusion. The 'moderate' Asif Ali Zardari was outright lying. Will the western media call Asif Ali Zardari on his lie. I hope so, but I will not hold my breath.
I've heard the news that the Chief of Pakistani Intelligence has been arrested by the army for his "direct" involvement in the Mumbai massacre. Can anyone provide more details?
"Pakistan refuses to hand over suspects to India"
Reminds me of the US refusing to hand over Posada to either Venezuela or Cuba after he brought down a Cuban airplane. Instead, the US decided to free Posada:
http://articles.latimes.com/2007/apr/07/nation/na-posada7
When the terrorist is working for the US, he gets freed from prison. God bless the USA.
"It would be like Lebanon not holding a celebration for child-murderer Samir Kuntar -- you didn't really think the Muslim Arabs would refrain from honoring Samir Kuntar as a hero, did you?"
Kuntar is a Druze and a Communist. He is not a Muslim.
The story that Kuntar smahed in the 4-year-olds head is propaganda. When the incident happened, Israel also accused Kuntar of killing the the 2 year old as well. An AP reporter, however, later reported that the 2 year old was accidentally smothered by the mother. When the AP story came out, Israel stopped accusing Kuntar of that murder, and stuck with the other unfounded charge instead. If the AP had not uncovered the story about the 2 year old, Kuntar would still be considered the murderer of the that child as well.
But, but...you mean these Pakistani terry-thomas-mustachioed blokes from Sandhurst AREN'T really just the same as those British fellows except for their funny accents? Who woulda guessed? And we've been bringing the pilots of their F-16s over here to train with our pilots, essentially treating them as sort of junior members of NATO.
Speaking of NATO, there was a report this morning about 100 NATO vehicles destined for Afghanistan being destroyed in a Pakistani transshipment holding area. I'll bet this was done by a few dissident Methodist missionaries.
'dave' (I'll bet it's dawood)
get. out. now.
You're a Muslim. You HATE Jews. Just admit, and get the hell out of here.
dumbledoresarmy:
I.love.you.
One of the reasons India is plagued by Islamic Terrorism is due to the US' policy of endless aid worth billions and billions of dollars to Pak and its State Sponsored Terrorism and proxy-war on India. With a wink and a nod from the US, Pak has obtained the N-bomb. Indians are dying, and now the monster has grown so much bigger, and its tentacles have spread far and wide. The creation of the Taliban was done again, with US backing - now India is the last one at the table - and involuntarily has to pay the check.
Rice arrived in India with an empty bowl, again, trying to calm down the Indian response and anger, which would naturally lead India to launch an offensive against the terror camps based in that country. Of course, the Pakistani threat of displacing the 100,000 troops from the FATS region to the Eastern frontiers with India, risks jeopardizing the US war on terror against the Taliban and Al Qaeda.
Lets face it, the US policy of strengthening Pak military to ward off Russian and Chinese influence, is now back-firing. And as of right now, India happens to be the greatest victim.
On the other hand, India's situation is incomparable with that of Israel, which effectively deals with the menace of terrorists, with its tanks, ground army and air force - as neither Palestine, Lebanon, Jordan, Syria or Egypt has the n-bomb. However, the Pakistani case is tenfold more complicated, as there are nuclear weapons in the equation.
India has a tough road ahead, but given Pakistan's rogue nature, which is FINALLY coming to light in the US administration's eyes, if an allied offensive against Pak terror camps is launched - and soon, there may still be hope.
dave472, so you want to play the moral equivalence game, do you? You've stumbled into the wrong place if you think that'll work with this crowd, my friend.
Eastview:
I know nothing will "work" here. I simply find it funny that you people are outraged if Pakistan won't hand someone over to India, when the US not only didn't hand over a known terrorist, they let him out of jail! It's very funny. I realize that the ability of people on this site to ignore hypocrisies like this are second to none, and you will have no problem ignoring it.
Cut it out, 'dave'. Quit with the devaluation of language. I think I know what you think of me.
I love Jews. I love Israel.
And I wish the Israelis had shot Samir Kuntar right where he stood, on that beach, beside the body of that little girl and her father , two defenceless innocents whom he had cold-bloodedly murdered.
Oh, and had Samir Kuntar and his fellow assassins not invaded that Jewish house, the mother would not have had to hide with her baby, and the baby would not have died - smothered as other Jewish babies were, also accidentally, by other mothers, during the Shoah, when hiding in terror from the swaggering, sneering Nazis. Samir Kuntar and the other jihadis are responsible for that death.
If you, sir, by your despicable posting above, intend to imply that the deaths of the deaths of the Jewish father and daughter were accidental (which is nonsense), or that the father murdered his daughter and committed suicide / sarc/ or that the Eevil Jooz did it to their own for propaganda purposes in order to slander the Pooor Innocent Muslims (Kuntar was a janissary - the Arab Muslims looove what he did, they celebrate what he did) then...well, every sane and decent human who visits this site knows exactly what to think of you.
I repeat: the Israelis should have shot Samir Kuntar on the beach, next to his victims. Then they should have thrown his worthless carcase into the sea for the fish to eat.
Question for you, 'dave': do you approve of what the jihadists in Mumbai did, inside the Chabad house, to the rabbi and his wife, and their other Jewish guests?
If you try to deny that Muslims did that evil deed, which included the murder of a defenceless pregnant Jewish woman; if you try to 'spin' it in any way; if you try to diminish Muslim responsibility for those deaths, or to justify or excuse those ghastly murders in any way at all; then again, everyone here will know exactly what to think of you.
Your mask's off, mate.
For anyone new to this site, who may have been momentarily distracted by the lies and turnspeak of 'dave 742' above, with reference to that despicable sociopath and Druze janissary of Islam and the Arabs, Samir Kuntar:
some home truth from the jihadwatch archives
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/021796.php#c559041
Way to hand him his ass, DDA. I always knew hat Aussies weren't meant to be messed with.
dave472, See what I mean? It's probably not over either. Wait till darcy and champ weigh in. The men are waiting until the women are through, although we don't expect much to be left.
What we see today is the fallout of Cold War Geopolitics. Cold War Geopolitics adhere to one rule only : the enemy of my enemy is my friend. People today should take into account the fact that India, althought "officially non-aligned", received military aid from the Soviets.
When the Soviets invaded Afghanistan, America needed to stop the communists on that front and by befriending Pakistan, they thought they had gained a trustworthy ally and an "American-friendly" base as a counterweight against the Soviet sphere of influence in the Southeast.
So military aid trickled from the US to Pakistan and the ISI took care of providing the mujahideen with the logistics and the weaponry. After the ousting of the communist regime in Afghanistan, the different mujahideen factions started fighting amongst themselves. The ISI, which can perfectly operate without the Pakistani goverment's consent, was not really sure which horse to back, so to speak. So in the end they decided to train the Taleban themselves, so Pakistan could get a foothold in Afghanistan.
Of course, any measure the Americans take now (by militarily interfering in Afghanistan and by deploying cross-border missions into Pakistan)will be met with Pakistani hostility. (particularly from the ISI viewpoint)The Pakistani goverment is in fact a puppet regime and that has always been the case, because no Pakistani goverment has ever had any control over the ISI acting independently.
So there is a big lesson to be learned from all of this :
1) Pakistan has abused the Cold War rationale to further its own gains from the word go.
2) Americans are naive to think that the geopolitical game is a game you can play by a "fair-play" set of rules. Ultimately, your so-called friend will turn against you when the circumstances change.
3) Rather than being pissed off and imploring their so-called ally to cooperate time and time again, the Americans should face up to the truth : Pakistan will never be an ally and has never been an ally.
4)The Americans would do better to side with India, strenghten diplomatic ties with this country and cooperate much closer when it comes to anti-jihad intelligence gathering.
5)NATO should withdraw from Afghanistan, because it has nothing to gain there. Especially since Pakistan is becoming more and more "talebanized" (thanks to the ISI) If the status of Afghanistan could be "contained" by NATO, in the end it probably will be bordered by a second Afghanistan. Now what would be the point of that ?
I really think it is time for NATO, the US and India to flex some muscle in a combined effort to get their point across to those treacherous bastards in Pakistan.
I say : let Afghanistan and Pakistan rot to the core and exterminate Jihadism in India, starting with Kashmir. I really think Jihadism can be "contained" within India, if the right measures can be taken and politicians are willing to take them. It is too late to contain the problem in Afghanistan and Pakistan. There's no point in trying to salvage something that has already been lost.
Mystichealer, I just read your post above and checked out your web site. Powerful stuff. From what I surmise from your site you are a supporter of a Bolochistan independence movement. How many such independence movements are there in Pakistan yearning to free themselves from Punjabi rule? As you know, this is a site devoted to discussions about Islam, so could you expand on how the Islam of Belochistan differs from that of the Punjab? Most posters here have some knowledge about Islam in general, many in detail. Educate us. Use broad strokes.
Mystichealer, haven't heard back from you but I've been poking around a bit and ran across the Wikipedia article on the Balochistan Liberation Army http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balochistan_Liberation_Army . It included this fascination tidbit "By and large the victims of BLA are unarmed civilians specially of Punjabi origin. This includes doctors, professors and mostly barbers." What's with the barbers?
Mystichealer, your post was concise and to the point. Thank you. Most readers here are familiar with Bzrzinski's role in helping to set up and fund the Afghan mujaheddin in 1978-1979, as you mentioned above, and are not happy that he is now on President Elect Obama's foreign policy team. With regard to the Mumbai crisis that appears headed for clashes between Pakistan and India, if you could provide advice to the U.S. what would it be. Over the near term? Over the far term? Is there a realistic possibility that Pakistan could completely break down as a nation, leading to the formation of a new constellation of states, such as an independent Balochistan and Sindh? Should the West consider maneuvering to help this along, or just stay out of it completely? What are your thoughts?
dumbledoresarmy:
Of course Kuntar is legally responsible for the two childrens deaths. Being legally responsible for indirectly causing deaths is different than intentionally killing someone. Laws of all nations distinguish this. This is the way the incident was reported when it happened:
“The terrorists then stormed an apartment and took Danny Harran, 28, and his 4-year-old daughter, Annette, hostage after killing a second daughter, Yarl, 2, according to an Israeli Army spokesman.”
The "Israeli army spokesman said that Kuntar killed the two year old. Obviously, the impression given by him is that Kuntar delliberately killed the 2 year old. This is a lie, and because the AP found this out, when now all know this was a lie. It is also a lie that Kuntar killed the 4 year old deliberately. It's propaganda.
Kuntar is responsible for the deaths, however, and he served 28 years. This is plenty. This is more than most countries give for intentional murder.
"I love Jews. I love Israel."
Here's a big difference between us. I tend to judge people by their individual actions, not by what nation they were born in. I put millions or billions of people into a group and judge them collectively. My mother in law is Jewish, and she is one of the most amazing people I ever met. I love her. The Jewish settlers, however, I do not love:
http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/technology/5194893/palestinians-protest-hebron-settler-violence/
(Notice how the Israel Defense Minister called the settlers actiona a "pogrom").
I realize you probably cannot understand the concept of judging people by their actions and not who their ingroup is, but that is one way we view the world differently.
Eastview:
"dave472, See what I mean? It's probably not over either. Wait till darcy and champ weigh in."
Yes, I am devastated. I don't know how I am going to make it through the day.
"I put millions or billions of people into a group and judge them collectively"
Should read:
"I do not put..."
Also:
"The Jewish settlers..."
Should read:
"These Jewish settlers..."
Sorry.
Ladies and gentlemen
observe our Mohammedan dementor continuing to defend the indefensible.
He seems to want us to believe that Samir Kuntar is more sinned against than sinning - that the death of Danny Haran and Annette Haran was some sort of unfortunate accident, entirely unintended, wah wah wah, poooor put-upon Samir Kuntar (does 'dave' really expect us to *believe* that?? - does he imagine that the gun went off all by itself and just *happened* to hit Danny? Or that Samir Kuntar did NOT intend to kill those whom he captured? me, I believe Danny's wife; she heard the jihadis talking as they swaggered and stamped around her house. She knew they intended to kill.)
That is of course what he *wants* us to think - me, I suspect he actually believes Samir Kuntar DID deliberately kill the Jew and the Jew's daughter, and that this was a Good Thing Too. But he's not going to tell us that.
And as for citing AP as an unbiased authority for anything happening in the Jihad against the Jews...ROFLMAO.
Of course, it wouldn't be a reply from a Mohammedan, without some hot steaming Tu Quoque.
Namely, the reference to some angry young Jews in Hebron. Isn't it interesting how the Muslims *squawk* and howl 'poor us!!' when the Jews start fighting back...
I am recalling how, from 1267-1967 the dog-in-manger Muslims sadistically denied Jews access to Judaism's second most holy site, the Cave of Machpelah, which the Muslims, with typical Muslim supremacism and grossly offensive sense of entitlement, had appropriated for themselves.
I am remembering the Muslims' mass killing, robbing and gang rapes of the defenceless dhimmi Jews in Hebron in 1929, Jews who had survived there (no thanks to the Muslims, the Muslims persistently treated them like sh*t) for centuries...and there were other Muslim attacks on Jews in the Holy Land before that, right through the 17th and 18th and 19th centuries, and they were all of a surpassing violence and vileness.
'A barbarian is someone who laughs when he hurts you, and howls when you hurt him.' If the Muslim barbarians in Hebron are howling because, for once, the Jews are doing something to roll back the Arab Occupation, then ...guess what, 'dave', I don't weep one tear for them. The Muslims (who have NEVER seriously tried to 'Do As You Would Be Done By') are - as a result - getting a tiny taste of Be Done By As You Did.
dave, just so's you know: I would applaud if the Israelis simply went in and evicted every single Mohammedan squatter/ invader/ imperialist/ Arab supremacist occupier from the ancient and holy Hebrew city of Hebron, and threw them all over the river into Jordan, and annexed the city and its surrounds to Israel proper, permanently, and filled it up with Jews, Christians and Samaritans.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it, dawood Muslim whoever-you-are.
And since this thread is supposed to be about Pakistan, and India, I also hope the non-Muslims in India can muster sufficient resolve and firepower to evict every last Mohammedan from Kashmir and resettle the place with non-Muslim Indians, and rebuild all the non-Muslim Hindu shrines and Christian churches that the Muslims have destroyed; and defend it with overwhelming, annihilating force against any Muslim attempt to reconquer it.
Finally: my general attitude toward Jews and Israel on the one hand, and toward Muslims and the Ummah (Muslim Mob) on the other, is governed by my knowledge of what is in their sacred books, and by my knowledge of the histories of the two groups.
What I see of the teaching in their books, and the evidence of history, inclines me toward respect, love and trust, with regard to Jews, and the Jewish state of Israel.
Whereas, what I have learned of the teaching in the books of the Mohammedans, and the abundant - and dreadful - evidence of Muslim behaviour throughout history (and its perfect congruity with the evil instructions in the Mohammedan books), inclines me toward a coldly rational distrust of Mohammedans, and a total lack of respect toward the corrupt, chaotic, violent and despotic Mohammedan 'states' such as Pakistan, the abominable House of Saud, Egypt, Iran, and all the rest.
If I meet an individual Muslim face to face, in daily life, I will attempt to be civil and charitable...but I will also be cautious, given everything I have learned, and seen in history, of the extent to which Mohammedan culture is saturated with hostility and deceit, especially toward non-Muslims such as myself.
In general, I would be more inclined to trust a Jew than a Mohammedan, because in general jewish culture emphasises truth, integrity, charity and personal responsibility...whereas the Mohammedan culture, well, *doesn't*, certainly not toward Kafir.
Way to hand him his ass, girl. That's two dead, bleeding trolls today. Let's hear it for the army of Dumbledore.