Victorious
Originally AP reported that "Valentine violated a court policy that prohibits people from wearing any headgear in court, police said after they arrested her Tuesday." Now, apparently, that policy is out the window, and court officials are in full retreat before the specter of being accused of "racism" and "bigotry."
An update on this story. "Police to get training after head-scarf wearer's arrest," by Josh Levs for CNN, December 22 (thanks to Soren):
DOUGLASVILLE, Georgia (CNN) -- The Douglasville Police Department said Monday its officers will undergo "sensitivity and cultural diversity training" after a Muslim woman who refused to remove her head scarf at a courthouse was jailed. Lisa Valentine has been shaken "to her core" by her arrest last week, her lawyer says."We never want this to happen again. It's not our intent to embarrass anybody," Police Chief Joe Whisenant said at a news conference.
The judge who had the woman jailed briefly for contempt of court will also take part in the training, Whisenant said.
The incident took place December 16 when Lisa Valentine, who also goes by her Muslim name, Miedah, accompanied her nephew to a hearing at Douglasville's municipal courthouse. The scarf, called a hijab, covered her hair but not her face. It is part of her religious belief that her hair should be covered in public, as a form of modesty.
In an interview with CNN's Rusty Dornin, Valentine said a bailiff told her she could not enter with her head scarf.
"I didn't pose a threat to anybody," Valentine said. "So I got really angry. I told her that was discrimination, and I said it was b.s. -- and I used the full term of the word."
She tried to leave, but the bailiff demanded that she appear before the judge, and pulled on her arm, Valentine said.
"I was right near the door. I said, 'Don't touch me.' And so she got in front of me," Valentine said. "... She called for a guard or a police officer. He came and then he just was near me, and was like, 'You're going to do what you're told to do.'
"And then he grabbed my arm, and of course instinctively I pulled it away. So he's like grabbing me and bending my arm, like you see people who are resisting arrest, and trying to get really physical with me. ... Then I said, 'OK, OK,' and I let them put the handcuffs on me."
Valentine said she would have had no problem with allowing a female officer to check under her head scarf to make sure she did not pose any danger.
Valentine said that when she told the judge what had happened, he sentenced her to 10 days in jail for contempt of court.
At the jail down the street, Valentine had to change into a jumpsuit. Her mug shot was taken -- without her head scarf.
She was let out of jail later that day. Her attorney, M. Khurram Baig, said he does not know why she was released so quickly.
"It's been devastating for her," Baig said. "We're talking about a major life-altering event for somebody to realize that everything they thought they knew about our justice system may not actually be the case. So she's been shook to her core."
Douglasville authorities describe the day's events somewhat differently.
In a news release, police said Valentine repeatedly used the expletive, told the bailiff that the judge was "racist," pointed her finger toward the officer, and "became loud enough that she attracted the attention of another officer."
The news release said an officer did tell Valentine she could not leave, "and placed her hand on Mrs. Valentine's wrist."
"Mrs. Valentine resisted the officer's efforts by stiffening her arm, but did not physically fight with the officer," the release said.
When Judge Keith Rollins was told of the incident, the news release said, he ordered her jailed for 10 days....
When word of the incident spread, groups across the country weighed in on Valentine's behalf, including the Council on American-Islamic Relations, the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, the Anti-Defamation League and the American Civil Liberties Union.
On Friday, about 50 people demonstrated outside the courthouse. Speakers called Valentine's treatment a violation of the Constitution and called for Rollins to step down....
i suspect this to be a setup.
one Halima Abdullah (as briefly mentioned in the CNN report) possibly consulted with others in order to shame this judge, shame him in a vengeful way. seeking as well to whittle away at the respect for the courts of law.
...perhaps a tactic to establish Islamic courts for the people of the mosque. Islamic ways are thought to be supreme by the people of the mosque.
The Nazis only upped their hatred of Jews, etc., after they got all their original demands when Hitler assumed power.
It is not surprising that angst-ridden bigots like this vicious slug of a woman are no less blood-thirsty after Farakhan's messiah, Obama, was elected.
Considering why Lisa Valentine was in the court in the first place, and the words she uttered upon being ushered out, one doubts that she was, as her lawyers now claim, shaken "to her core" by her arrest last week. "Shaken to her core"? Really? Don't be absurd.
I agree, that "this is B.S."
They should have left her locked up.
How much does she hate herself for being black to have "reverted"?
After all, her prophet would have called her a raisinhead, and she'd be called abed or abd by his descendants if she traveled to the heart of Dar al-Islam.
Way to go Lisa! Keep chipping away at the laws of the land you were born in and pretty soon you can live as an animal too, beaten and abused at your master's whim, just like all the other women of the Muslim persuasion who live in majority Muslim countries.
I'll bet you're one of those gals that believes in reparations for slavery too, huh? But you certainly haven't learned any useful lessons, have you?
Lisa is just biding her time until she can be an "abd" in Saudi America.
If Ms. Valentine is so inclined, it might do her good to review the history of Islamic slavery in Africa. She might also want to realize that she is so unqualified to be the next Calif.
1. She is a woman.
2. She is black.
Does this sound familiar, Sistah-Girl?
You been conned by the Man (with the Turban).
Posted by: Proud_Kafir7908
After all, her prophet would have called her a raisinhead, and she'd be called abed or abd by his descendants if she traveled to the heart of Dar al-Islam.
In a ranking of "the best people" she would definitely be fuel for the hellfire.
Sorry, meant to say - "next Caliph'
Previous article mentioned a "habit" assuming they were talking about an old-fashioned Catholic Nun (the ones we used to call a "penguin" due to the black and white outfit) Think how this would have played out with a nun -
(1) Sister told she couldn't come in like that
(2) Sister starts by saying "Why, bless you young man, Is it possible for me to remove my habit in a side room with a matron?" (Since I'm sure she's gone through the drill before)
(3) Sister escorted to a side room by a female guard - removes habit Or...
(1a) Sister knew what the rules would be, and changed into appropriate civilian attire when out in the "real world", so she would not have that problem. - there's still pleny of nuns out there, you just don't see them as they don't travel in uniform these days.
Now if a Catholic Nun (who has given up sex, lives in poverty and devotes herself to helping mankind) can play by the rules (and won't get a break just because of who she is) Why can't other people figure that out?
Sure looks like some folks push the envelop just because.
I feel sorry for this poor woman - born female and black would be considered a double wammy in many societies (and to be honest, we as Americans aren't there yet either) but to make it worse by adopting this nutty cult? How does that help her?
2nd Thought - just who provides this "sensitivity training' How detailed is it? Instead of sensitivity (treating others different) we started giving "awareness training" (explaining the islamic cult) I would think that if it REALLY explained what islam is all about, we would see an end to this training.
As there is a political end to islam, shouldn't the fairness doctrine kick in on any training?
CAIR WELCOMES GEORGIA AG’S SUPPORT FOR HIJAB IN COURTS - TOP
Attorney General Baker says rights include ‘wearing of religious garments’
(WASHINGTON, D.C., 12/22/08) The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) today received a letter from Georgia Attorney General Thurbert E. Baker supporting the principle of religious accommodation in that state’s courtrooms.
CAIR recently sent a letter to Baker asking him to bring sanctions against a Douglasville, Ga., judge who has repeatedly barred Muslim women wearing religiously-mandated headscarves, or hijabs, from entering his courtroom.
Last week, a Muslim woman was jailed and then released following a dispute over whether she could enter the judge’s courtroom while wearing her hijab. The woman’s release came after CAIR intervened in the case.
In the past year, other Muslim women have either been jailed under similar circumstances or barred from that judge’s court.
SEE: Muslim’s Scarf Leads to Arrest at Courthouse (Atlanta Journal)
In his letter to CAIR National Legal Counsel Nadhira F. Al-Khalili, Attorney General Baker wrote in part:
“[Courtroom policies] must be designed in such a way so as not to unnecessarily or inappropriately infringe on individuals’ rights to observe their religious practices, including the wearing of religious garments…[I]t is difficult to imagine a security concern that could not be addressed in a way that would also accommodate an individual’s religious practices related to dress. Religious freedom is a cornerstone of this nation’s constitution and should be vigorously protected.”
Baker sent a copy of his letter to the Georgia Judicial Qualifications Commission to alert them to the issue “for whatever action they deem appropriate.” He also said he would participate in any effort by the chief justice of the Supreme Court of Georgia to develop uniform standards on religious accommodation in Georgia courtrooms. The chief justice also received a copy of Baker’s letter.
“We thank Attorney General Baker for his support of religious freedom and will work with state officials to ensure that all Georgians have unfettered access to that state’s legal system,” said CAIR National Communications Director Ibrahim Hooper.
CAIR, America's largest Islamic civil liberties group, has 35 offices and chapters nationwide and in Canada. Its mission is to enhance the understanding of Islam, encourage dialogue, protect civil liberties, empower American Muslims, and build coalitions that promote justice and mutual understanding.
emphasis added
L.Drummond
And of course don't forget to demand a sensitivity training program for your local Muslims to attend so that they might grasp some of our western Values, you know like becoming friends with non Muslims, not demanding the jizya from them,allowing them to build synagogues, and churches,not deceiving them,not trying to commit jihad against westerners, not forcing conversions to Islam, not treating women as half the equal to a man, and a list of many others that reflect western values.--(fat chance)
Little by little, Islamic supremacism here in the States is taking hold.
Had anybody said that to me in the weeks following 9/11, I'd have replied, "That could never happen here in America."
Wrong, wasn't I?
The Saudis surely have targeted African-Americans for conversion. Just some background:
In 1964,[Malcolm X] met an Egyptian-born Saudi representative in New York. On the man's urging, later that year Malcolm X traveled to Mecca for the hajj. This was a life-changing experience. Treated as a state guest by one of King Faisal's sons, Malcolm X - unaware that just two years earlier Africans had still been legally enslaved in the kingdom - was "rendered speechless and spell-bound" by Saudi Arabia. The kingdom was infused with "a spirit of unity and brotherhood that my experiences in America had led me to believe never could exist between the white and non-white," he wrote in his autobiography. Paving the way for tens of thousands of other American blacks, he abandoned the Nation of Islam for the mainstream Muslim faith, made even more appealing by anti-American feelings already prevalent in the Middle East. "The American passport,", Malcolm X wrote, "signified the exact opposite of what Islam stands for."
In 1975, after the death of the Nation of Islam's leader, Elijah Muhammed, his son and successor, Wallace, also embraced Saudi-style Islamic orthodoxy. Hundreds of black radicals - including former Black Panthers - flocked to Saudi-funded Islamic academies in the United States, and in the kingdom itself. African American students in Mecca in 1978 and 1979 included such prominent converts as Imam Siraj Wahhaj, who thirteen years later would become the first Muslim clergyman to lead a prayer before the start of a session of the U.S.House of Representatives.
(The Siege of Mecca, The forgotten uprising in Islam' holiest shrine. Yaroslav Trofimov, 36-37.)
Fascinating, how certain people who are deeply disturbed by their ancestors' slavery heritage are so willing to put on some running shoes (as well as blinders,) tell themselves that Islam is the prize and go tearing for the absolute enslavement that most assuredly awaits them.
Lisa girl, you are very foolish. I understand that that big chip on your shoulder probably obscures part of your view but you ain't gonna' be happier with this newer gig, hon, JUST FORCED TO BE OBEDIENT.
I guess enslavement is your destiny. Too bad you are so full of yourself that you don't even know it didn't have to be this way.
This is a setup. Blacks in Georgia better fight back. she aint no Arab. She cussed like a fish yet she is holy! She belongs to a religion that calls Black women STUPID tabari 1:280 and ugly nappy headed, pug nosed abeeds. Black men are less than a donkey's penis Ishaq 243. She is a traitor as are all of the Black American converts, who are the recipients of freedom fought for by Christians and Jews of America. People they all hate. Israel is the only nation in Arabia who allows Black Muslims to live safely. Arabs kill them. She looks like a fool, wearing a whore outfit as the burqa and the veil represented. Muhammad said a woman is a big vagina to be used any way the man wants! Sura 4:34 says she can get her butt beaten! Let her husband beat her, rape her and maybe she will be stoned and her girls be multilated under Islamic law. (Vagina cut out)
WAKE UP BLACK AMERICA! ISLAM IS NOT A BLACK MAN'S RELIGION, MUHAMMAD WAS A WHITE MAN! SWAHILI IS ARABIC AND BANTU MIXED. WHY ARE ONLY AFRICAN SLAVES TO ARABS AND NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND IF ISLAM IS BLACK! TRULY STUPID!
Has anyone come across the mugshot? If so, please post it. An effort should be made to distribute that mugshot as widely as possible.
"You're going to do what you're told to do.'
because if everybody can do what they want, well that would lead to anarchy and societal breakdown, wouldn't it.
On Friday, about 50 people demonstrated outside the courthouse.
So they go to mosque and discuss political issues and then go protest in a political demonstration strait from mosque. If that's all it takes, they will ALWAYS get their way since 50 can be gathered every Friday.
Has anyone here ever BEEN through a 'sensitivity training'. They hire these blood-sucking PC nanny state parasites at $500-$1,500 A DAY to 'conduct' them - man they RAKE it in. The whole procedure is humiliating, invasive, and modeled on a Vietnamese 're-education camp'. If you don't go along you can be out of a job. The sensitivity people are Jesse Jackson extortionists of the first water. To take policemen who must risk their lives every day and subject them to these whining castratos and finger waggers... words fail me.
Hello - I posted this on JW yesterday:
OT - here's an update on the Georgia incident. The police are going to get "cultural sensitivity and diversity training."
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/12/22/georgia.muslim.courthouse/index.html?iref=mpstoryview
Posted by: darcy [TypeKey Profile Page] at December 22, 2008 8:58 PM
So, what happened to "thanks to darcy?"
Just saying.
So if you go into a Mosque or Sikh temple they can strip you of your Rights and make you wear some type of costume head piece to "Pretend" to agree with them and have equal status , but then outside of their Temples they also want to force their Costumes on secular venues .
This is why I have never entered a Mosque or Sikh temple,not only does it insult my faith but it insults them because anyone can put on their Costume garb and ACT like them while having absolutely nothing in common and not believing a single thing they practise in that temple.
Why bother being a Muslim when you can be a Rent-a-Muslim via a costume or baal worshipping rituals to remove the shoes and face a big Rock in Mecca.
I will not bow down to Muhammad or Allah , they can kill me first before I accept living in a Shariah Law hell-hole society void of any fre thought.
What is the Anti-Defamation League doing getting involved in this incident?
"weigh[ing] in on Valentine's behalf... the Council on American-Islamic Relations, the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, the Anti-Defamation League and the American Civil Liberties Union."
Ah, defenders of American liberty and security all. We can sleep soundly now, knowing the matter is in such good hands, as well as those of the dhimmis in the court and police department.
"Thanks to Darcy!"
I think what we need is greater "insensitivity"
training!
Muslims' feelings are being hurt as they leave a trail of blood, war, horror, and explosions across planet Earth and we dare call them on their conduct. Boo hoo hoo!
Doesn't all this make you just want to make you puke your guts out??!!?
"Thanks to Darcy!"
Posted by: Isabellathecrusader
LOL
Thanks to Isabella! And Merry Christmas, Izzy. Hope yours is wonderful.
*
Muslims' feelings are being hurt as they leave a trail of blood, war, horror, and explosions across planet Earth and we dare call them on their conduct. Boo hoo hoo!
Doesn't all this make you just want to make you puke your guts out??!!?
Posted by: pythagoras
Oh, it's outrageous. Quite often I don't know what to do with all my outrage. I'm being, we're all being, ordered to not only accept Islamo- Nazis as equivalent, but to elevate and appease them as well.
It's outrageous.
Oh, come on! Are we that spineless now? The woman should have a copy of the Georgia Penal Code rubbed in her face. Instead, the arresting officers get to sit through a new-age, bulls--- class about "respecting other cultures".
She was shaken to her core, right! Totally smells of a con job and look who jumped on the bandwagon to save this sorry slave's butt. That is about the best a woman can expect under islam and the masters of this cult. It is islam that is shaking this country's very foundations to the core and the population had better be sitting up and taking notice. Oh I forgot, they did and we have islamofacist sympathizer for a president now.
Who wants to look under her headscraf?? better yet, why should our law enforcement folks have to put up with this crap? I get offended every damn day by islam and it's dedication to perversion, subjigation of women and us having to bend to their stinking values and laws.
The AG and the police chief should be ashamed of themselves, even though I am sure the screws were
put to both of them by all parties mentioned in the article.
Not only do muslims get away with violating the laws imposed on the rest of us, they get to use aliases when it suits their fancy. She's Lisa Valentine one day and Miedah when she has PMS. She's obviously a convert who is into flashy apparel and exotic names; she likes to stand out in a crowd. What a farce this is! The judge didn't like her flashy muslima outfit with the head covering so he's automatically an insensitive racist, never mind the rules. It is an absolute outrage that sensitivity training is being imposed on government employees to accomodate a tiny segment of the population. NEVER in the history of this extremely diverse nation were such radical measures necessary until muslims arrived on the scene. Keep it up CAIR, et al; if you think muslims are despised now, you're only stoking the fire.
I have a very strong suspicion that this woman is no more muslim than I am; she's only in it for the attention and the ostentatious wardrobe.
I recently had jury duty and arrived at the front door of the courthouse right behind a lady with a hat on. I heard her tell the security officer that she was undergoing chemotherapy and had lost all her hair but she removed her hat with no argument when he told her he couldn't let her in with it on. I felt so sorry for her and fumed all the way to the courtroom because if not for MUSLIMS, this rule would not exist. Muslims are the reason we are subjected to these humiliating and annoying security procedures in government buildings and airports and it appears that they are exempt from them! What irony!
"Has anyone here ever BEEN through a 'sensitivity training'."
Every single year, since 1990 (maybe even earlier). At first blush, it was a very big deal. Outsiders were brought in, just as you described in your comment, and we were bombarded with propaganda, until everyone was repeating the lesson in unison.
Later, the classes were given by our own HR employees, and lasted about an hour, and included stupid games, which everyone was forced to play. (talk about "humiliation"...)
This year, it was an online course on the company's intranet. (We plebes are not to be trusted on the Web, don't you know?) Takes about fifteen minutes to finish, if you don't read the material, and skip to the questions at the end.
I work for a defense contractor, so this is where your tax dollars go (mine, too). So, relax-- your Armed Forces are being equipped with weapons built by culturally "sensitive" people.
When a police officer takes you by the arm or wrist, never stiffen your arm, or pull, or jerk away. This will interpreted as resisting and more force will be applied...
Under Shar'ia, she only counts as half a witness, so ... shouldn't we be trusting the word of the officers here? Let the ACLU, ADL, CAIR, et al cease aiding the lesser sex against their rightful lords and masters.
Does this mean, if I'm a Trekkie, I can now wear my full Klingon garb into a Georgia court without hassle? What if I'm a member of the Church of Zena Warrior Princess? Could I claim a right to wear her drag before the bench? Come on, Georgia thugs, go for it!
By the way, use the equivalent of "B--- S---" in an Islamic court, and you'll be swinging from a crane in no time, sweetie. Plus, "modest" people don't use that word. Ever.
If muslims live western countries they should only be allowed to practice their religion in their mosque or home. Outside of those two places they have to abide by the laws and customs of the country they are in. Preferably they should go and live in a muslim country then they can wear what they want, or are allowed to.
If muslims live in western countries they should only be allowed to practice their religion in their mosque or home. Outside of those two places they have to abide by the laws and customs of the country they are in. Preferably they should go and live in a muslim country then they can wear what they want, or are allowed to.
Here in South Africa you cannot wear a crash helmet in a bank for security reasons, yet they allow in muslim letterbox ladies draped in their black abayah, where all you can see is their eyes, and even then they often wear dark glasses. Who is the greater threat to "security"? Some delivery man in a crash helmet or the angel of death in her abayah?
This sounds like a set-up and trial-run to see if the Islamists can get into a Courtroom with explosives.
here's how it would work.
The females dogs that have little value under Shariah law would be forced to shave their head and then put on a thin layer of Plastique explosives inside a helmet type head piece much like a swimming cap.
Then once its' wired to a trigger switch near the waist or bra where nobody would dare frisk a Muslim female , the Jihad-jane suicide bomber then fits a snug wig over the explosives which then has the Hijab hide the obvious wig and bomb.
You just wait until the lawyers are being killed in mass because of the Courtroom Jihad-jane's , they'll quickly tell the ACLU to screw-off and then demand Security checks and NO-Headgear in the Courtroom.
Just this year I read about Drug Lords using new Mother to be suicide bombers via the baby, these sick and twisted bastards get a Doctor to cut open the baby and incert the bomb near the tummy, then the Mother books a flight on a Plane knowing that the baby is never checked .
Once on the Plane she waits for the point to do the most damage and kill evryone on the plane while in Flight.
This method was meant to send a message to the Government to back-off from the Drug trade cells.
Headscarves are part of the alien culture of Arabs, not of American citizens. You want Arab culture, don't let the door hit you in the a$$ on your way to the Arab land of your choice.
Islam is not compatible with freedom.
Robbery today, suicide bomber the next.
How nice. The Georgia Police are to get sensitivity training. Isn't that special?
I wonder if CAIR will offer sensitivity training to its own clients so they will have a greater chance of integrating successfully and living in harmony in their respective communities?
Maybe...just maybe, when...
a) Hell freezes over?
b) Monkeys fly out of my butt?
c) Pigs fly?
or
d) Never?
USA is a brutal society and unfortunately the terrorists have only caused it to become more brutal.
I think many of us who travel through major US airports have experienced heavy handed security enforcement.
With cases such as these, the truth is usually in the middle. I doubt a person such as this complainant would be able to invent a claim that the guard said "You're going to do what you're told to do.". Equally I think her language and attitude was more provocative than she would confess.
I have travelled to USA 10 times in the last 12 years. From my outside perspective the tension in the society, not just the airports, has escalated dramatically.
I encourage you to find ways of gently handling potential threats until they are no longer potential but proven. And a woman in a stupid head covering is only a potential threat.
I hear what you're saying. But, the courts in the USA are heavy handed to everyone. If you speak out of line in court you are held in contempt after one warning. If you mess with security protocol you are detained, and if you give them lip, in trouble. It's the law or the highway.
I'm surprised that they were able to turn this on the court so quickly. They are in attack mode, and have turned it. Someone in power must have immediately leaned on the county or fed, or this would never have been turned.
Shame. If it was you or I, we would be in lock up. No quarter.
But what you say is true on the surface. And your take interesting. Merry Christmas, I'm off.
A brutal society? Get real. We don't beat women in the streets for showing an ankle, behead journalists on trumped up charges or kidnap and rape young Christian woman who rebuff Muslim men's advances.
I wonder if all the whining, complaining and made up "hate crimes" coming from the luckiest Muslims in the world (the ones who don't live in a Muslim hellhole but are fortunate enough to live here) contributes to that tension you're talking about.
Isabella:
I said brutal, not murderous and evil.
Compared to other western countries I do think it is brutal. In the west, no other country handcuffs people immediately upon arrest, no matter whether they are violently resisting arrest or not. In the west, no other country allows people to die from treatable conditions because of a lack of health insurance. In the west, no other country puts people to death even for murder.
For many/most in the USA, all these things seem fair and reasonable. If it were not the case, they would not exist. But you know, if people don't like those things, they don't have to live there. There are plenty of other western countries that welcome the skills and contribution of US citizens. Australia certainly is one of them.
It is because of these reasons that I don't choose to live in USA.
However this thread is heading off topic and its probably worthwhile to return to the point of the website, which is not about US social policies, so I will leave that there.
Some definitions of the word brutal
1. savage; cruel; inhuman.
2. crude; coarse.
3. harsh; ferocious.
4. taxing, demanding, or exhausting.
5. irrational; unreasoning.
6. of or pertaining to lower animals.
Off topic or not, I think your characterization of my country as brutal is ludicrous.
I guess if one has never lived anywhere else one might find the opinion "ludicrous".
I guess one doesn't have to live anywhere else if they know people who do or have. I guess you've never lived in a Communist country, a country run by Nazis or in a country that mandates Shariah. Neither have I, but when one of my friends or business associates gives a description of the horrors of those places and the regular practices that took or take place under certain regimes, like having a relative get a knock on the door in the middle of the night and then disappearing forever or having one's parents pulled out of their house, lined up against a wall and shot for no apparent reason, I tend to believe that they may have actually lived under that threat and may have a legitimate complaint. Those are brutal acts and are against the law in America, are not condoned and are much worse than the examples you give above.
As far as handcuffing people immediately upon arrest, so what? That to you is brutal? It might be uncomfortable, humiliating or inconvenient but it is not brutal. And I'm not sure who you are talking about when it comes to letting people die from treatable conditions because of no free health care. You probably aren't aware that even illegal aliens can go to any county hospital and they will not be turned away, even if they don't have a cent to their name. I am curious though, if you live in a country like Britain that has free health care but makes people with wait months and months to be seen by a doctor, causing people with cancer and heart problems that need to be dealt with immediately to die before they can be treated. I'm wondering which scenario you believe is more brutal, not having free health care but being treated anyway, like in America or having free health care and dying because it wasn't your turn and the line was too long?
As far as the death penalty goes many people in America are against it and many are for it. I'm against abortion, as are many people who live here, but it still takes place here against my will. I don't think there is anything fair or reasonable about that.
Speaking of abortion, I'm wondering if you live in a country that allows it to flourish. Would you consider that a brutal practice or would that be considered fair and reasonable? I'm just trying to understand your complaint and see if it is legitimate or if you are simply an apologist for Muslim activities.
This thread seems to have unfortunately turned into a private chat line.
To fill in your blanks, I live in Australia. I think abortion is available here if the mother's mental or physical health is determined at risk. Obviously that is an open door for abuse (of the system).
I do spend considerable time in USA as I mentioned.
Australia does have a National Health system along side a private health system. We don't have delays on life threatening treatments. I have also lived in the UK and frankly I think this claim about the UK is an urban myth. In fact I was interested to note that someone I knew did have life threatening heart condition recently and he ended up being whisked through quickly and treated well.
This website or thread is not here to explore National Health as an alternative. It was to attempt to explain the reasons for my view.
You hit the nail on the head with the handcuffs. Systemic humiliation of the populace by arresting and applying handcuffs without cause IS brutal treatment. It is precisely my point and thank you for making it. In other parts of the west we have the notion of "innocent until proven guilty" the words of which most everyone in USA is aware of, but for some reason don't seem to want to enforce hence "cuff'em he looks too proud"
On the death penalty, obviously many people in USA don't oppose it, or it would not exist.
Muslim apologist? Oh here we go... On this site if you disagree with someone you are either:
A. Muslim
B. Muslim Apologist
C. Troll
FYI I put my faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, and I hope He helps me to recognise the truths of this life, be they uncomfortable or not.
Oh and thanks for defending my right to my view.
You have every right to your view. But when you make it about my country and I think you are wrong, I'll be happy to tell you so.
As far as making your point for you, I didn't. No thanks necessary. There is no systematic humiliation of the populace, as you seem to think. Not everyone is handcuffed, in fact the percentage is miniscule as we live in a nation of laws and the majority of people follow them. Systematic humiliation is the hallmark of other societies though, like the one with which naive Ms. Valentine would like to replace ours.
I find it interesting that you would talk about the tension in my country while completely disregarding that in your own. I believe Australia was where the "uncovered meat" Imam was peddling his spew, where the Muslim beach riots took place a few years ago and where that gang of Lebanese Muslims raped teenybopper girls and called them Australian pigs. So far we've had none of that in the U.S. Perhaps it has something to do with the tension that comes about when one group wants to perpetrate it's crimes against humanity on the rest of us and some of the rest of us stand up to them and say, no you are not going to; oh, and handcuffing anyone who gets arrested for trying. It is also interesting that you seem to be horrified by the thought of being handcuffed in the U.S. I live here and never give it a second thought, knowing that as I follow the laws it is unlikely I will ever have to think about it.
Have a nice Christmas holiday.
You are referring to Sheik Hilarity and his imfamous uncovered meat comment. This was actually helpful as it caused people to consider the threat of shariah imposed culture on our society. A more recent one was the episode where Muslim leaders were proposing the government formally allow polygamy. Such ridiculous suggestions help to build awareness of the problems associated with multiculturalism and I am glad the society has started to withdraw from that thinking.
The awful rapes you speak of were truly horrible, and as usual, the criminals used their religion/culture to justify it. It is disturbing to note the main offender's sentence continues to be reduced. The only good thing which comes from this is to continue to build awareness and recognition of the threats that exist.
I am glad to hear you have not had Muslims saying similar stupid things in your country, but I frankly doubt that is correct. Equally I am glad we have not had people run over with sudden jihad syndrome, people shot in airport also with SJS, people arrested for planning attacks on military bases, and many other outrages.
The only reason I use the example of the spontaneous handcuff syndrome of US law enforcement is because to me it demonstrates the immediate violence the society is prepared to impose on people who are only suspected of ill doing. I had the privilege of consulting with Australian law enforcement recently and I asked the question about handcuffing. Their view was that to handcuff people who were co-operating and non violent would be considered "police brutality" and easily sue-able by the recipient. That is why they don't do that. The difference here is that Australia is a softer, more gentle society than some.
Anyway this thread really is turning into a "Is Not, Is So" debate, or even worse, a measuring contest, and it really is time to move on. If we bicker anymore we will just look like LGF. I happily leave the last word to you Isabella, no matter how naive it is.
Belated Merry Christmas to you too, by the way. I don't like "Happy Holidays" we are still allowed to say "Merry Christmas" aren't we?
You're so funny P.A. You talked about this thread veering off topic ages ago yet you still kept it going.
You are entitled to how you feel by all means but when you present it as fact and it can be easily disputed, well, it's the height of naivety to believe that it will be taken as fact and that no one will challenge you.
Thanks for the last word. ; )
payingattention:
I am an American citizen who takes exception to your comments that the USA is a "brutal society."
You are probably watching too much Oprah and other mainstream media shows that glorify victimization in America (there's big money in professing to be a victim in the American media).
I grew up here and most certainly did NOT come from an environmnent of brutality. Nor did I grow up on fear of brutality either. Nor do I live in fear of violent crime. The one time I DID experience (an attempt at) violent crime here was the result of two Arab Muslims in 2002 (and I suspect they were not citizens anyway).
What elements of 'brutality' (violent crime) that exist in the USA presently is largely due to third world elements that have been permitted to set up shop here. 9000 homicides for example each year are committed by illegal immigrants (NON-US citizens); human trafficking and Islam are other examples of violence from the the third world. The majority of violent crimes in the USA statistically can be traced to Hispanic and black ethnicities (many of whom are immigrants from third world countries)--they are not representative of American society as a whole. Violent crime stemming from immigration from the third world countries is not a phenomenon confined to the United States either. It is happening in virtually every developed nation.
Incidentally, actual terrorism barely exists in America for the simple reason that some Americans have injected their vigilance into the system as we see at the airports...what exactly is so "brutal" about that? Vigilance has helped Americans DETER terrorism which is a good --if not necessary-- thing (yes, a price has been paid for that). No one wants to state publicly that most acts of terror are committed by Muslims, so we go through the charade of searching EVERYONE at airports (but this is not Webster's definition of "brutality" as I understand the meaning of the word).
I am not living in fear of 'brutality' (although I AMsick of third world immigrants and the problems they continue to create here such as violent crime). I am tempted to tell you to shut up. I am sick of people like you. Please go visit and badmouth someone else's country!
Yeah, Pythagoras, I'm wondering how many handcuffing incidents took place at airports or on the street during those 10 visits in 12 years. I can't think of ever having seen one in my almost 50 years living in this country, except maybe on crime dramas on TV. Me thinks someone is painting with a rather broad brush or has a mischievous reason for leaving such a comment.