While some Indians remain in denial about jihad, others know the score. All free people should be standing with them. Pamela was at this protest, and has more.
While some Indians remain in denial about jihad, others know the score. All free people should be standing with them. Pamela was at this protest, and has more.
Warms my heart on this cold day.
Namaste to them all.
This is brilliant. Good on them.
India will clearly have a huge role to play in fighting Islamic terrorism.
Respect to them.
Well done! This is good to see. The placards are excellent.
Let's hope it will be followed up by similar demonstrations in the UK, Canada, and Australia, for example, outside the Pakistani embassies and in other suitable locations. And perhaps one outside the UN digs in Geneva?
Members of the local non-Muslim Indian community - Hindu, Sikh, secular and Christian - should be joined by every other person of goodwill who loves human freedom and affirms the sanctity of human life.
Now let's see them join the rest of us.
Or is India itself all that matters?
The placards are good. Note, please, that a demonstration by Indians contains a placard about the torture-murder of Rabbi Gavriel Holzberg and his wife. The more such inclusion, in any given demonstration, to victims whose identities may not fit those of the organizers and main participants in the demonstration, the better. No demonstration in favor of Israel, for example, which intelligently notes that the Jihad being waged against it has no end, and cannot be modified or assuaged by further Israeli surrenders of territory, should be held without some placard about the 60-70 million Hindu victims of Muslim massacres in India. And if any Christian group of -- not Arabs, but Arabic-speakers, such as Copts and Maronites and Assyrians, holds a rally, they should go out of their way to hold up placards about Hindus, Jews (yes, for some this will be difficult, but they've got to start seeing the war in the round, and unlearn what they were taught in the Middle East), and Buddhists in southern Thailand. And always and everywhere, mention of the Christian Black Africans, in southern Nigeria or southern Sudan, who most quickly bring to mind what Muslims and Arabs have been doing, and for centuries, in black Africa, should be de rigueur at all such demonstrations. A Popular Front, in which all the victims of Jihad are included, as many as possible, at all times. Always get beyond the particular issue; always broaden the appeal.
PMK: That comment was unfair, considering the placards' words about Jews and the need for the world to unite. And Hugh was spot on: all demonstrations could profitably include references to victims and times apart from the immediate situation or focus.
We are still at a ratio of about 4:1. A minority in numbers should be not too hard to defeat, if we are serious and united.
Were there any placards concerning External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukharjee's statement about "a sinister ploy to connect Islam with terrorism"?
Great! Great! Great!
I love the sign that says: "Pakistan: The epicenter of Islamic Terrorism."
Islamic Terrorism, oh yeah. Use that phrase, people, seeing that true phrase used instead of PC bullcrap is fabulous.
Heartwarming, indeed.
Pamela's site has a list of the placards that were displayed during the protest against Islamic Jihad. I believe that it mentions a call for action against the "pussyfooting of cowardly leaders" against Islamic Jihad. They are taking into account all countries that have faced Islamic Jihad and also criticizing leaders of not taking a strong stance against this global attack against democracies.
It is probably up to ordinary men and women to take up the challenge and protest. I suppose these Indians will not be labeled racist. Which the scumbag Mohammedans always use as a ploy against any protest from the west against Islamic Jihad.
I just am thinking if these guys will get the usual barrage of name calling that is prevalent when Caucasians protest. Islamphobia, racist, etc.
If any such demonstration were held in my home town, and I knew about it a couple of days, or even a day or so, ahead of time: I would be there. And I would drag my whole family along, too.
And I second Hugh. I too noticed the Indian protester reminding everyone of the assault on the Jewish Chabad House in Mumbai.
At all such demonstrations in particular support of this or that country assailed by the Global Jihad, the other countries or societies also thus assailed should be judiciously brought to mind at the same time.
Sada Cucumber should be very concerned about these posters, considering that he is a 'special envoy' who extra went to Arabia to “delegitimise terrorists”.
Well, at least he's in good company:
http://sheikyermami.com/2008/12/21/sada-cucumber-vows-to-boost ties-with-islamic-countries/#more-16977
OIC Secretary General Prof. Ekmeleddin Ihsanoglu has been very outspoken in condemning terrorist attacks, including suicide bombings, making it clear that Islam in no way permits the taking of innocent lives.
Thank you, thank you, thank you to all the Indian people who had the courage and intellectual clarity to hold this protest. I doubt any coverage will appear in the MSM, unfortunately.
These are not just any Indians,these are my people, the Kashmiri Pundits,people who know and understand Islamic terror from direct experience.
The Brown Journal of International affairs has a very disappointing article by Michael Chertoff blaming the West for the rise of Isamic radicalism.
If the chair of homeland security thinks like that,we are doomed.
Thanks to the Indians who have the gut to stand up to Islamic Terror. The Quran and the ahadiths and Muslims fanatics and moderates tell us they hate us and we just sit and watch. Black Muslims are told to their black faces they are nothing but abeeds and a donkey's penis or less and STUPID and they just says "YESSIR Mr. ARAB". Black Muslims like the new name or new outfits and they live in safety while the African Muslims are killed for oil and cattle and land. They blame the JEWS or the white man as Jeremiah Wright says. Well the rich white man has done well. The Jew has done well. The Muslim has done the killing well. Terror is Islamic. What kind of a GOD says kill others for not believing in a moon-god who had three girls and no son. A religion that stole the celebration RAMADAN from the Hindus who had a GOD named RAM after which the celebration waas named.
THANK YOU INDIANS. AMERICA IS THE LAST NATION TO RUN TO. DO UNTO THE ISLAMIC MUSLIMS BEFORE THEY PLAN AND SCHEME TO DO UNTO US. PLEASE TELL THE BLACK MUSLIMS WHAT THE ARABS DID TO YOU AND AFRICANS. SLAVERY AND GENOCIDE IS WHAT THEY HAVE CHOSEN. ALLAH IS THE DEVIL SURA 3:54.
What I also like about this demonstration is that it comes at a time when the UN has once again passed a resolution to "protect" Islam.While ignoring the victims of Islamic terror.Its also an "in your face" response to Muslim demands that infidels stop linking Islam to terror.
God bless the protesters. Nobody but them can wake the world up to threat that is Pakistan, sadly. More people need to protest the UN, those degenerates. It was very cold in New York today. This was not just a gesture.
I stand with India!
India folks protesting at UN!! Astounding and heartening news! At last folks who know the score are taking courage in hand and doing something about it. God bless them!
AUSTINIAN, put your anger to work and send a copy of Qur'an to Chertoff! with Surah 9:5, 2:191, 4:29 and 8:12 circled in red! A copy of Robert Spencer's STEALTH JIHAD would be a great follow-up.
Seems that time and time again the Indians are the only ones who have the remotest sense of what is going on.
To:PG
Please explain how you have a 4:1 advantage over the Muslims. Do mean population? Only Israel and India seem willing to fight jihad. UK is accepting sharia. Europe is under attack but their governments don't recognize that Islamic jihad is the problem. France and Sweden are feeling the pain. The Bush administration played right into their hands. America is in recession and deficit. Saudi Arabia and Iran are getting rich off oil. Those two support radical Islam and jihad. The United States doesn't even know what it is supposed to be fighting. The White House listens to Saudi Princes more than their own people. There must be a change in strategy if you want to win.
God bless these people for their courage and conviction. I really the straight-forward message of their signs. Tell it like it is.
Most of the signs were red letters with a white background...Who ever made the decision to go red on white made a good decision. The red block letters nearly jump off the paper, and can be read from a fair distance...
22/12/08
As a Hindu from India, the Westerners should appreciate the difficulties in managing 200 million muslims amongst us for over 1000 years. We have managed them and here are a few suggestions:
> Go back to Christianity and the Church. It is a good religion and it is worth defending. Defending Christianity is better slogan than defending an abstract like freedom of speech, democracy etc.
> Throw out the socialist scoundrels from politics and the left lunatics from the academics
> Force the Conserve Party to become Christianity supporting party; it is unlikely that the Church will exert any undue influence in the government and it is a an issue that can be remedied.
> Scrap the welfare pay outs except for the aged. Welfare only encourages the unproductives and undesirables.
> Make extradition easy and it should be for the entire family; the convict will be jailed say for a period of five years but the family will be thrown out immediately on conviction
> Influence the judiciary, by fair and foul means, to give tougher decisions.
> The police force should be brainwashed against muslims and should use violent methods to control. In India the police does and people brush aside the resultant Islamic jingoism.
> The Conservative party should accept national security as the main plank
> Re-install death penalty
> Once in five years there should be riots in which thousands of muslims will be killed. Sounds barbaric; the alternative is being consumed by barbarism. In India we retaliate and it is called constructive response.
> Separate them physically in secluded areas; that is better than to permit them to live in all areas, which they will contaminate. They will never assimilate and do not attempt at it.
> Stop muslim immigration and substitute with Hindu labour; they are law abiding and will integrate admirably well. Hindus are the second richest and most highly educated minority in USA. There is a not a single case of a Hindu being profiled for wrong reasons.
> Teach the children to hate the muslims; they any way are doing the same thing.
> Follow the Hindu way of life; live life and accept death as inevitable; live for the children and for their future. Sex is only a side attraction and wealth is only incidental.
> Consign all the human rights character to Saudi Arabia, that is the place where they should practice their profession; tell them human lives are more important than human rights
> Get out of EU and preserve your right to protect your country and its culture. Earlier you had a country and culture to be proud of and now EU has converted the countries into anonymous entities
> In India we have a main stream political party for protecting the majority rights; create a similar one, since otherwise the secular fanatics will abandon the majority
"We are still at a ratio of about 4:1. A minority in numbers should be not too hard to defeat, if we are serious and united.
Posted by: PG "
to win ... you will have to kill...numeric superior foes has not stopped Islam from advancing ... and Islam advances inch by inch..never giving up captured ground...they take over a church here and one there, one neighborhood here and one there, one store here and one there, one school here and one there...Islam even kills its own if they are too slow or not violent enough...
...and you will have to kill many...
The same week the murders in Mumbai were taking place, the United Nations General Assembly passed six anti-Israel resolutions. India voted in favor of all six of them. India was, of course, not alone... Bangladesh, Belarus, Burma, China, Cuba, North Korea, Egypt, Iran, Libya, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Syria, Venezuela, Yemen and Zimbabwe also voted in favor of those resolutions.
This week, the United Nations General Assembly voted on two anti-Iranian resolutions. Did our "friends and allies" in India vote in favour of those? Of course not (see below).
"Vote on No-Action Motion on Iran
The no-action motion on the draft resolution on human rights in Iran (document A/63/430/Add.3) was rejected by a recorded vote of 84 against to 69 in favour, with 25 abstentions, as follows:
Against: Albania, Andorra, Argentina, Australia, Austria, Bahamas, Belgium, Belize, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Botswana, Bulgaria, Burundi, Canada, Cape Verde, Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica, Croatia, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Ecuador, El Salvador, Estonia, Fiji, Finland, France, Georgia, Germany, Greece, Guatemala, Guinea-Bissau, Haiti, Honduras, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Japan, Kiribati, Latvia, Liberia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Marshall Islands, Mexico, Micronesia (Federated States of), Monaco, Mongolia, Montenegro, Nauru, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Palau, Panama, Papua New Guinea, Paraguay, Peru, Poland, Portugal, Republic of Korea, Republic of Moldova, Romania, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Lucia, Samoa, San Marino, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, Timor-Leste, Tuvalu, Ukraine, United Kingdom, United States, Uruguay, Vanuatu.
In favour: Afghanistan, Algeria, Angola, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Barbados, Belarus, Bolivia, Brunei Darussalam, Cambodia, Central African Republic, China, Comoros, Congo, Côte d’Ivoire, Cuba, Democratic People’s Republic of Korea, Egypt, Eritrea, Gambia, Guinea, India, Indonesia, Iran, Kazakhstan, Kenya, Kuwait, Kyrgyzstan, Lao People’s Democratic Republic, Lebanon, Malawi, Malaysia, Mali, Mauritania, Myanmar, Namibia, Nicaragua, Oman, Pakistan, Philippines, Qatar, Russian Federation, Sao Tome and Principe, Saudi Arabia, Senegal, Serbia, Singapore, Solomon Islands, Somalia, South Africa, Sri Lanka, Sudan, Suriname, Swaziland, Syria, Tajikistan, Thailand, Togo, Tunisia, Turkmenistan, Uganda, United Arab Emirates, Uzbekistan, Venezuela, Viet Nam, Zambia, Zimbabwe.
Abstain: Antigua and Barbuda, Benin, Bhutan, Brazil, Burkina Faso, Cameroon, Chad, Dominica, Dominican Republic, Ethiopia, Ghana, Grenada, Guyana, Jamaica, Jordan, Lesotho, Mauritius, Mozambique, Nepal, Niger, Nigeria, Rwanda, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Sierra Leone, United Republic of Tanzania.
Absent: Democratic Republic of the Congo, Djibouti, Equatorial Guinea, Gabon, Iraq, Libya, Madagascar, Maldives, Morocco, Seychelles, Tonga, Trinidad and Tobago, Turkey, Yemen."
and:
"Vote on Human Rights in Iran
The draft resolution on human rights in Iran (document A/63/430/Add.3) was adopted by a recorded vote of 69 in favour to 54 against, with 57 abstentions, as follows:
In favour: Albania, Andorra, Argentina, Australia, Austria, Bahamas, Belgium, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Botswana, Bulgaria, Canada, Chile, Costa Rica, Croatia, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, El Salvador, Estonia, Fiji, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Honduras, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Japan, Kiribati, Latvia, Liberia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Marshall Islands, Mexico, Micronesia (Federated States of), Monaco, Montenegro, Nauru, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Palau, Panama, Peru, Poland, Portugal, Republic of Moldova, Romania, Saint Lucia, Samoa, San Marino, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, Timor-Leste, Tuvalu, Ukraine, United Kingdom, United States, Vanuatu.
Against: Afghanistan, Algeria, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Belarus, Belize, China, Comoros, Congo, Cuba, Democratic People’s Republic of Korea, Ecuador, Egypt, Eritrea, Gambia, Guinea, India, Indonesia, Iran, Kazakhstan, Kuwait, Kyrgyzstan, Lebanon, Libya, Malawi, Malaysia, Mauritania, Morocco, Myanmar, Nicaragua, Niger, Oman, Pakistan, Qatar, Russian Federation, Saudi Arabia, Senegal, Serbia, Somalia, South Africa, Sri Lanka, Sudan, Syria, Tajikistan, Togo, Tunisia, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Venezuela, Viet Nam, Yemen, Zimbabwe.
Abstain: Angola, Antigua and Barbuda, Barbados, Benin, Bhutan, Bolivia, Brazil, Brunei Darussalam, Burkina Faso, Burundi, Cameroon, Cape Verde, Central African Republic, Chad, Colombia, Côte d’Ivoire, Dominica, Dominican Republic, Ethiopia, Georgia, Ghana, Grenada, Guatemala, Guinea-Bissau, Guyana, Haiti, Jamaica, Jordan, Kenya, Lao People’s Democratic Republic, Lesotho, Mali, Mauritius, Mongolia, Mozambique, Namibia, Nepal, Nigeria, Papua New Guinea, Paraguay, Philippines, Republic of Korea, Rwanda, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Sao Tome and Principe, Sierra Leone, Singapore, Solomon Islands, Suriname, Swaziland, Thailand, Uganda, United Arab Emirates, United Republic of Tanzania, Uruguay, Zambia.
Absent: Cambodia, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Djibouti, Equatorial Guinea, Gabon, Iraq, Madagascar, Maldives, Seychelles, Tonga, Trinidad and Tobago, Turkey."
http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2008/ga10801.doc.htm
India is not a friend of the civilized world, has never been so, and will never be so unless it abondons its Third Worldist, anti-Western world view and realizes that its only friends and the only nations that actually see fighting the Jihadists in Pakistan and elsewhere as something GOOD are the Western nations (especially the US and Israel).
"India is not a friend of the civilized world, has never been so, and will never be so"
This statement assumes that India is not a part of the civilized world. Our civilization stretches back for more than 10,000 years. In fact it was the riches of India that led to the discovery of America and the emergence of Europe as a sea power.
India is the only country in the world where Jews have never been persecuted while they have been persecuted all over the west including America until Hitler. So India has always been a friend of the Jews while cozy relation between Jews and west is only a recent affair.
The above statement also underscores why America gathers so few friends, you diss India while you cozy up with pakistan, supporting its military budgets and what not. First pull the plug on pakistan, why should American taxpayers pay billions of dollars to prop up the pakistan economy and military?
Both the Iraq and Afghanistan fights are stupid because you are replacing sadam and taliban with taliban lite which given time will become taliban again as long as there is a muslim majority. So regime change is dumb and getting dumber.
Most of the weapons captured from the militants were made by USA and Russia. First turn off your Military Industrial complex supplying guns to rouge countries which in turn supply it to the militants. Profits are not more important than human lives.
"India is not a friend of the civilized world, has never been so, and will never be so"
This statement assumes that India is not a part of the civilized world. Our civilization stretches back for more than 10,000 years. In fact it was the riches of India that led to the discovery of America and the emergence of Europe as a sea power.
India is the only country in the world where Jews have never been persecuted while they have been persecuted all over the west including America until Hitler. So India has always been a friend of the Jews while cozy relation between Jews and west is only a recent affair.
The above statement also underscores why America gathers so few friends, you diss India while you cozy up with pakistan, supporting its military budgets and what not. First pull the plug on pakistan, why should American taxpayers pay billions of dollars to prop up the pakistan economy and military?
Both the Iraq and Afghanistan fights are stupid because you are replacing sadam and taliban with taliban lite which given time will become taliban again as long as there is a muslim majority. So regime change is dumb and getting dumber.
Most of the weapons captured from the militants were made by USA and Russia. First turn off your Military Industrial complex supplying guns to rouge countries which in turn supply it to the militants. Profits are not more important than human lives.
"India is not a friend of the civilized world"
Posted by: Daniel D
----------------------
India is firmly rooted in the "non-aligned" mentality, the movement whose founding fathers included Nehru. It tries to walk the tightrope of neutrality and thereby, perhaps uniquely amongst the UN member states, succeeds in offending its so-called friends and foes alike.
I saw a documentary of Nehru's visit to the US during the height of the Cuban crises (not during that time - I hasten to add, but more recently) in which he steadfastly stayed mute during all his social and political engagements, afraid that his utterances will give offence or encouragement to the warring parties - thereby only demonstrating that India itself didn't have a view on right or wrong (as the US saw it) and maybe inadvertatly sowed the seeds of US mistrust, I don't know!
What I do know though is that US has always been friends with pakistan (witness the billions in military largess - stretching back even before the so called "war on terror") and in any conflict with India will always aid the failed islamic terror sponsoring state and ditch the secular democracy - for it is in US genes to lay in bed with dictators and military juntas who are easier to push around than democracies - whose voters, much to US chagrin, often deliver a blow to US interference in their internal affairs. India knows this and will always be wary of any US overtures towards her.
US also knows full well that all these arms and ammunition will one day be used to kill Indians in large numbers(and not the Taliban for whom the weapons are ostensibly meant) and is quietly happy to see it to happen. Call it US punishment for India for her unrequited "love" for the US (the kind pakistan often demonstrates by burning, almost habitually, US flags and effigies of Uncle Sam - maybe there is a lesson for emulation in here for India that her people can copy).
Thankfully, despite the above UN vote, India (and Indians more so - for they are often not the same), see Israel as a friend. Both these countries are in the front line of islamic terror and therefore share a common enemy. I will not be surprised though, to see Israel being ditched by the US very soon (the EU is nearly there) in its continued effort to bring about a solution to the cause célèbre of the muslim/islamic grievance and terror: the Palestinian problem.
Just to clarify, not being a friend of the "civilized world" as you put it, does not maketh India an uncivilised country - if indeed that is what you were driving at.
On the subject of the demonstration by a few Indians outside the UN, all we need now are the other 900 million of them on our side, then perhaps islam will have a fight on its hands.
Sadly though, I am not holding my breath on that score.
Oops I posted twice. Connection problem. Sorry.
can not describe extent of hatred hindus have towards muslim. please read indian history.
The Arabs ventured into East Africa, snared scores of black pearls, and bringing them to the auction block, delivered them unto the slavers.
Now, blacks are opening up their confused arms to Arabs and being recaptured by Islam.
"can not describe extent of hatred hindus have towards muslim. please read indian history".
Posted by: swimmer
----------------------------
And perhaps that is why they elected to have a muslim as their President, worship muslim actors, subsidise Haj pilgrmage, allow numerous muslim political parties in their land, permit mosques and madrassas to operate and flourish, and despite many deadly terrorist attacks on them by muslims, have not killed a solitary muslim in revenge.
And how many muslim countries allow any of this to any of their minority communties, much less to the dirty pagan idolaters?
BTW, where have all the Hindus, which were nearly 40% soon after the partition, gone in pakistan?
And on the subject of pakistan, where did the muslims got their own land? Did it just appear from thin air?
Yeah, very hateful Hindus.
Get a life and you read the Indian history, Swimmer.
"can not describe extent of hatred hindus have towards muslim. please read indian history".
Posted by: swimmer
----------------------------------
No wonder you can't describe it.
It doesn't exist anywhere outside your tiny mind.
British Prime Minister Gordon Brown visited Islamabad [Images] and gave 6 million pounds (about Rs 433 million) to Pakistan's government as a reward for the attacks on Mumbai, carried out by trained Pakistani militants. Not that Gordon Brown meant to encourage terrorism. Quite the contrary. The funds were given to Pakistan for counter-terrorism support. But in the equation of action and consequence, the Pakistan army [Images] would be happy to cash in another six million pounds. Every bit helps. But it is time for Western governments to ask whether the strategy of doling out dollars and pounds for terror has delivered the goods.
Being the 'frontline State' in the war on terror has netted the Pakistan army over $10 billion (Rs 500,000 million) in military assistance from the United States. The frontline of terror runs through the state of Pakistan -- for its army it has proven to be rich vein of gold. Most of the military assistance from the US has helped the Pakistan army arm itself to the teeth against its 'enemy State' India and helped tighten its dominant economic and coercive control over Pakistani civil society. Fighting terror is such a profitable business for the Pakistan army that one wonders what they would do if they actually caught the terrorists.
Like a reliable cash machine, Gordon Brown went to Pakistan and coughed up some more money for terror. One wonders, what is the incentive for the Pakistan Army to change -- what it has done so far is clearly working well to keep it well-fed and well-polished.
Just as a thought experiment -- what if Gordon Brown had gone to announce that the International Monetary Fund is putting a stringent cap on defence spending in Pakistan? What if every terror attack having a link with Pakistan, caused the army's budget to be slashed and compensation handed to the attacked country? One suspects that the pro-active willingness of the army to take care of terror emanating from its soil would be greatly increased. After all, this is an institution that has shown it can protect its own interests fairly well.
India has been and is one of the greatest civilizations. It harbored many of those who were being persecuted by the Muslims and the Jihad. The Zoroastrians from Iran escaped Muslims to take refuge in India. Jews have never been persecuted in India. It was the attacks by Muslims for her riches and the Europeans as well that subsequently instilled a negative image of Hindus and India in order to control and rob her of her wealth, culture and philosophy.
"The above statement also underscores why America gathers so few friends, you diss India while you cozy up with pakistan, supporting its military budgets and what not. First pull the plug on pakistan, why should American taxpayers pay billions of dollars to prop up the pakistan economy and military?"
-- posted by "dd"
A very interesting little anti-American rant... but you forgot to ask me where I'm from. I'm from Sweden, not the US.
The day India stops supporting "Palestinian" Arab causes, and treats the disgusting Islamic supremacists of Iran as enemies, not as friend, maybe, just maybe, I will change my mind about India. Until then, India's talk about "fighting terrorism" (i.e. the global Jihad) will be as believable as Mahmoud Abbas' talk of the same.
And by the way, your insinuation that I support Pakistan is quite insulting, actually. Yes, I know you thought I was an American and that I therefore deserved to be insulted, but still. I have never in my life said anything positive about Pakistan, and I don't intend to do so in the future either.
"In fact it was the riches of India that led to the discovery of America..."
posted by: dd
This is false. It was increasingly bad weather in Greenland and Iceland, as well as rich fishing that led the Vikings, Irish, and Bretons to the coast of North America.
This was several hundred years before Columbus tried to find a Western route to the East Indies.
It is very encouraging and heart warming to watch this protest.This is possible in US/?West only. In their home country in India they can not do this . The secular Govt of India in Delhi would have slaughtered them in Delhi or in any other part of India to appease the Muslims locally and Internationally in-spite of Mumbai happenings currently. In the video , voices are audible and for the first time perhaps in history the name of Saudi Arabia is also heard along with that of Pakistan ,Publicly indeed.!!. Remarkable and grand . At home in India , Delhi , a very senior Muslim Cabinet Minister is galvanising Muslim legislators support to confuse the issue and asking ridiculous questions which only the dead non-Muslim police officers could have answered if they were alive.They are such traitors in defense of Islam. No doubt they are all hajji's or potential hajji's of Saudi Arabia the actual Mother Source of strength.May be another division/partition of India.
"What I do know though is that US has always been friends with pakistan (witness the billions in military largess - stretching back even before the so called "war on terror") and in any conflict with India will always aid the failed islamic terror sponsoring state and ditch the secular democracy - for it is in US genes to lay in bed with dictators and military juntas who are easier to push around than democracies - whose voters, much to US chagrin, often deliver a blow to US interference in their internal affairs. India knows this and will always be wary of any US overtures towards her.
US also knows full well that all these arms and ammunition will one day be used to kill Indians in large numbers(and not the Taliban for whom the weapons are ostensibly meant) and is quietly happy to see it to happen. Call it US punishment for India for her unrequited "love" for the US (the kind pakistan often demonstrates by burning, almost habitually, US flags and effigies of Uncle Sam - maybe there is a lesson for emulation in here for India that her people can copy).
Thankfully, despite the above UN vote, India (and Indians more so - for they are often not the same), see Israel as a friend. Both these countries are in the front line of islamic terror and therefore share a common enemy. I will not be surprised though, to see Israel being ditched by the US very soon (the EU is nearly there) in its continued effort to bring about a solution to the cause célèbre of the muslim/islamic grievance and terror: the Palestinian problem."
--posted by Hermit
I guess I have to disappoint you too by saying I'm not an American.
The most interesting part of your "the US never does anything right"-rant is the "it is in US genes to lay in bed with dictators and military juntas who are easier to push around than democracies - whose voters, much to US chagrin, often deliver a blow to US interference in their internal affairs. India knows this and will always be wary of any US overtures towards her." And look where that brave anti-American Socialist mindset got India. Per capita income (nominal) at less than $1000. Congratulations!
When it comes to India being a good friend of Israel, sure I believe you. The Non-Aligned Movement (as you mentioned), an organization that India is a proud member of, is known for its pro-Israel agenda. The Havana Declaration is proof of that, I guess.
Well, all I can say is that I've been told India is a democracy (power is held by the people (i.e. Indians) type of thing), and I think the way a nation votes in the UN General Assembly, Security Council, etc. says a lot about that particular country. On the questions that matter, India and Israel are more or less always on the opposite side. That tells me a lot about India. If it doesn't matter to you, fine. I'm sure Israel knows who its real friends are.
Daniel D's comments above conflate the Indian government with the Indian populace at large, which would be like saying that the US populace at large supports putting pressure on Israel to cede Golan Heights to Syria just as the State Department does, or that he is on the same page as the Swedish government on Israel. While the Indian population is as PC as that in the West - no more, no less, to insinuate that Indians at large are as supportive of the Palis as, say, Pakis, Saudis, Iraqis, et al is disingenuous at best, and dishonest at worst. Most Indians don't know nor care what the Indian foreign ministry is up to. Hell, they can't even stop their government from ending Bangladeshi immigration, nor force them to go to war with Pakistan, and you think they can influence their UN votes against Israel, which is one of the most worthless of exercises?
The above demonstration is welcome given the backdrop of overwhelming Indian support for Obama, and helps avoid the perception that Indians are pro-Muslim. The expressions of solidarity with the Jews is also welcome, as well as the explicit condemnation of Islamic terrorism. I don't know that I agree with Hermit: I'd say at least 20% of Indians are on the same page as us, with others on a varying scale of suspicion.
"I have never in my life said anything positive about Pakistan, and I don't intend to do so in the future either."
At least we have something that we agree on. Cheers.
"And look where that brave anti-American Socialist mindset got India. Per capita income (nominal) at less than $1000. Congratulations!"
Guess what! That was in the past, India is now becoming capitalistic, while America is becoming Socialistic (I don't know about Sweden though). Example: While Ashok Leyland One of India's largest truck makers is cutting down production time and laying off workers instead of begging the government for a bail out, while American Automakers are (were) begging the govt for a hand out. Also India has one of the cheapest living expeses in the world. A dollar in India will go a long way than a dollar in America or Europe. Anyway money is important but that is not the only goal of life.
Also we have had only 60 years of independence so far, while America and Europe have had independence for centuries. Also they didn't have to overcome 200 years of colonization and draining of wealth by imperialists (America was a colony I know but practically ruled by the same race, you should check out the condition of Amerindians). Check us 50 years from now.
Daniel D, you've got it spot on. While the populaces of each are quite friendly with each other, policywise, India and Israel the govts are not really friends. India has her compulsions around losing the oil supply. She can't afford to antagonise the middle-eastern countries given how desperately poor the country is and in need of oil energy (this is why US compulsions are also understandable around cozying up to Saudi Arabia or Pakistan). Israel has no such problems given its size, energy requirements and the support it gets from the US.
Wish I was there. I fully support the protest against islamic terrorism. good to see Indians with some backbone.
"India is not a friend of the civilized world"
To me, the level of civilization of a society becomes evident when laws are not in force. In India, when there have been natural disasters in the past like floods in Bombay last year, there has been zero looting, no rapes, no murders, no violence; in fact, people have been amazed at how helpful and friendly everyone else was - folks who'd been stuck far away from their homes were given food, shelter without payment. In the US, after Katrina, besides people helping each other, shockingly there was also looting and rapes in a time of distress. Of course, there are lots of cases where Indians behave in an uncivilized manner where Americans would behave much better as in the general treatment of women. I don't think any country has reached a really "civilized" state yet. "materially developed" is a better word for the group of countries you're talking about here.
"> Once in five years there should be riots in which thousands of muslims will be killed. Sounds barbaric; the alternative is being consumed by barbarism. In India we retaliate and it is called constructive response." Thiagan
Clean up on aisle Thiagan, Robert.
Also, this is why parts of India are uncivilized and barbaric.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article5186703.ece
Why we should be careful when allying ourselves with Hindus.
@Daniel D:
We are on the internet and not blessed with the power of clairvoyance and frankly, it doesn’t matter where you are or who you are, it matters what you post. So, your use of terms like “Anti US mindset” would naturally lead a reader to presume that you are an American. FYI, I also, am not in India, so there!
India does not vote in the UN the way you or any American would like, is a matter of her choice. And, no doubt, a mystery to many Indians too! But look at this way, there are many things that the US does that is deathly detrimental to India’s very survival but can India do anything about it? It can take it or lump it, right?
However, on the more important matter of Israel, and this may come as a surprise to you, India and Israel enjoy a very close relationship on many non-political levels. Trade between the two countries has increased exponentially. There is close collaboration in space research (India sent an Israeli spy satellite, for free), agriculture, infrastructure and many such fields, yes, including military, where there is a talk of even conducting joint exercises. Now, does it matter how India votes at the UN or how it really behaves towards Israel in reality. Believe me a lot of European countries support Israel in public but their actions say otherwise.
Both India and Israel know, that their survival is at stake, for they face Islamic terror like no other country. By exploiting any minor differences between them only helps their enemies. And who really knows, what goes on behind the closed corridors of power in the two respective capitals?
BTW, I never said “US never does anything”, because to say that would be untrue and foolish. You say that you have “been told” that India is a democracy, the fact that you do not know it yourself says a lot about you and your remarks about its poverty are telling, its socialist agenda notwithstanding.
Talking of India’s Socialist mindset, didn’t the very capitalist Swedish armament company Bofors once try to bribe the very socialist Indians to place an order with them?
Hmm... very “Nobel”!
@Daniel D:
We are on the internet and not blessed with the power of clairvoyance and frankly, it doesn’t matter where you are or who you are, it matters what you post. So, your use of terms like “Anti US mindset” would naturally lead a reader to presume that you are an American. FYI, I also, am not in India, so there!
India does not vote in the UN the way you or any American would like, is a matter of her choice. And, no doubt, a mystery to many Indians too! But look at this way, there are many things that the US does that is deathly detrimental to India’s very survival but can India do anything about it? It can take it or lump it, right?
However, on the more important matter of Israel, and this may come as a surprise to you, India and Israel enjoy a very close relationship on many non-political levels. Trade between the two countries has increased exponentially. There is close collaboration in space research (India sent an Israeli spy satellite, for free), agriculture, infrastructure and many such fields, yes, including military, where there is a talk of even conducting joint exercises. Now, does it matter how India votes at the UN or how it really behaves towards Israel in reality. Believe me a lot of European countries support Israel in public but their actions say otherwise.
Both India and Israel know, that their survival is at stake, for they face Islamic terror like no other country. By exploiting any minor differences between them only helps their enemies. And who really knows, what goes on behind the closed corridors of power in the two respective capitals?
BTW, I never said “US never does anything”, because to say that would be untrue and foolish. You say that you have “been told” that India is a democracy, the fact that you do not know it yourself says a lot about you and your remarks about its poverty are telling, its socialist agenda notwithstanding.
Talking of India’s Socialist mindset, didn’t the very capitalist Swedish armament company Bofors once try to bribe the very socialist Indians to place an order with them?
Hmm... very “Nobel”!
The genie of the double post has worked its magic on me!
Please forgive me, folks!
Yes Hindu bashing by proselytizing faiths like Islam and Christianity is and has been going on since Muslims and Europeans started invading and establishing supremacist, imperialistic agenda. Very barbaric and certainly uncivilized. So Hindus should be careful to ally with these guys, that sounds about right.
Yes Hindu bashing by proselytizing faiths like Islam and Christianity is and has been going on since Muslims and Europeans started invading and establishing supremacist, imperialistic agenda. Very barbaric and certainly uncivilized. So Hindus should be careful to ally with these guys, that sounds about right.
"Hermit":
"We are on the internet and not blessed with the power of clairvoyance and frankly, it doesn’t matter where you are or who you are, it matters what you post. So, your use of terms like 'Anti US mindset' would naturally lead a reader to presume that you are an American. FYI, I also, am not in India, so there!"
Where in the post you responded to did I write "Anti US mindset"? Answer is nowhere.
"India does not vote in the UN the way you or any American would like, is a matter of her choice"
Of course it is. If the Indians want to vote the same way as their good friends in the "Non-Aligned Movement" like Saudi Arabia and Iran they are allowed to do so. But that doesn't mean people aren't allowed to comment on their voting record and even draw some conclusions from it, does it?
"...there are many things that the US does that is deathly detrimental to India’s very survival but can India do anything about it? It can take it or lump it, right?"
Many things? Other than their aid to Pakistan, what exactly? And are you suggesting the US government gives that aid to Pakistan to fight India? Some of that money might very well be used against India but you can't possibly mean there's some sinister anti-Indian plan behind the Bush Administration's aid to Pakistan, can you?
"BTW, I never said 'US never does anything', because to say that would be untrue and foolish. You say that you have 'been told' that India is a democracy, the fact that you do not know it yourself says a lot about you and your remarks about its poverty are telling, its socialist agenda notwithstanding."
I didn't say that. I called your reponse to me a "the US never does anything RIGHT"-rant (note the "RIGHT" part) and I don't see any reason to take that back. You clearly believe the US does a LOT (I never suggested you didn't believe so). None of it good and right though, it seems, and that my friend was what I tried to point out. Regarding the "been told" part... well, India might be a democracy but let me put it this way: I'm not very jealous of a country that calls itself a "sovereign socialist secular democratic republic".
Peace.
India voting in favour of anti-Israel resolutions at the UN is absolutely shameful. However, one needs to look at the governing party when these votes were cast. Congress party, currently in power, is a notorious ass kisser of Muslims and has consistently advised its UN ambassador to vote in favour of Islamic states, mainly for petro dollar remittances (from expatriates) and oil. The Indian PEOPLE, Hindus in particular, abhor this attitude. Look at the record of India votes during the previous government led by the BJP.
Aggressive and deceptive proselytizing by some Christian groups has caused some recent problems. Nonetheless, Christians since the time of St. Thomas have lived largely peacefully with Hindus, as have Jews, Zorastrians, and Tibetan Buddhists (the most recent arrivals). Hindus are very supportive of Israel as well as Christians as long as Christians mind their own business and do not indulge in aggressive and deceptive proselyting.
@Daniel D
I might have inadvertently missed out copy/pasting the word "right", but the rest of my sentence is a clear acknowledgement of a lot of good that US does. Again, just so that there is no misunderstanding on your part, to do so otherwise would be wrong and foolish. There.
What you are doing is clutching at straws, hanging as you are on one word (again, just so that you do not repeat it, the rest of my sentence acknowledges the many good that US does, read it!). I have shown to you how India considers Israel as a friend and how they mutually help each other. But you want to ignore this. That's fine, stay that way.
And this part: "I'm not very jealous of a country that calls itself a "sovereign socialist secular democratic republic"".
Believe me, no one is going to loose sleep over your personal foibles. China is a communist country, yet US is its biggest trading partner. Sweden, no doubt, imports cheap goods from there too. So what India calls herself "Socialist"? Once again you hang on to one word, while ignoring the more important ones like "secular", "sovereign", "democratic" and "republic".
Missing the wood from the trees seems to be a habit of yours.
Oh I nearly forgot, you managed to copy/paste my earlier response to you almost verbatim, except you missed a bit! The one about Bofors? Still, its not that important a point is it, corruption, governmental bribery, scam? I wont haul you over the coals for it as you have done me over my minor "misdemeanor", Sir.
"Daniel D's comments above conflate the Indian government with the Indian populace at large, which would be like saying that the US populace at large supports putting pressure on Israel to cede Golan Heights to Syria just as the State Department does..."
-- posted by Infidel Pride
Funny you should mention the Golan. November 26, the General Assembly passed a resolution (see below) aimed at "liberating the Syrian Golan from Israeli occupation" (in the words of the Syrian representative). The EU countries (aka the cowards) abstained, but at least they didn't vote on the side of evil. God bless the Americans and the Canadians for voting against. I don't believe for a minute that the US will pressure Israel into making concessions they themselves (the Israelis) don't want to make. If the Israeli government wants to suspend all talks with Mahmoud Abbas or Abu Mazen or whatever his name is, the US will support that. And you can trust the Indian government to condemn them (Israel and the US) for it.
Vote on Syrian Golan
The draft resolution on the Syrian Golan (document A/63/L.37) was adopted by a recorded vote of 116 in favour to 6 against, with 52 abstentions, as follows:
In favour: Afghanistan, Algeria, Angola, Antigua and Barbuda, Argentina, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Bahamas, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Barbados, Belarus, Belize, Benin, Bhutan, Bolivia, Botswana, Brazil, Brunei Darussalam, Burkina Faso, Cambodia, Cape Verde, Central African Republic, Chile, China, Colombia, Comoros, Congo, Costa Rica, Cuba, Cyprus, Democratic People’s Republic of Korea, Djibouti, Dominica, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Egypt, El Salvador, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Gabon, Gambia, Ghana, Grenada, Guatemala, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Guyana, Honduras, India, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Jamaica, Jordan, Kazakhstan, Kenya, Kuwait, Kyrgyzstan, Lao People’s Democratic Republic, Lebanon, Lesotho, Liberia, Libya, Malaysia, Maldives, Mali, Mauritania, Mauritius, Mexico, Mongolia, Morocco, Mozambique, Myanmar, Namibia, Nepal, Nicaragua, Nigeria, Oman, Pakistan, Panama, Papua New Guinea, Paraguay, Peru, Philippines, Qatar, Russian Federation, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Saudi Arabia, Senegal, Singapore, Solomon Islands, Somalia, South Africa, Sri Lanka, Sudan, Suriname, Swaziland, Syria, Tajikistan, Thailand, Timor-Leste, Togo, Trinidad and Tobago, Tunisia, Turkey, Uganda, United Arab Emirates, Uruguay, Uzbekistan, Venezuela, Viet Nam, Yemen, Zambia, Zimbabwe.
Against: Canada, Israel, Marshall Islands, Micronesia (Federated States of), Palau, United States.
Abstain: Albania, Andorra, Australia, Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Cameroon, Côte d’Ivoire, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Fiji, Finland, France, Georgia, Germany, Greece, Haiti, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Monaco, Montenegro, Nauru, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Republic of Korea, Republic of Moldova, Romania, Samoa, San Marino, Serbia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, Tonga, Ukraine, United Kingdom.
Infidel Pride:
Anti-Jihadists (and for that matter anti-Socialists and anti-Communists) around the world should pray for the BJP to win the next Indian general election. Maybe then India could lead the fight against Islamic terrorism. Perhaps even be the first nation to talk about Islamic terrorism and Islamic extremism as opposed to just "terrorism" and "extremism". I'm pretty sure Israel and the US will follow, maybe Canada and Australia too.
"Hermit":
"So what India calls herself 'Socialist'? Once again you hang on to one word, while ignoring the more important ones like 'secular', 'sovereign', 'democratic' and 'republic'."
You have to understand that I grew up in Europe during the Cold War and words like Socialist and Socialism are not exactly us right-wing Europeans' favorite words. If the Swedish government decided to add the word Socialist or Socialism to the Swedish Constitution I would move to another country straight away. Indians undoubtedly feel different about the word Socialist. I will try to be more understanding in the future.
"Oh I nearly forgot, you managed to copy/paste my earlier response to you almost verbatim, except you missed a bit! The one about Bofors? Still, its not that important a point is it, corruption, governmental bribery, scam? I wont haul you over the coals for it as you have done me over my minor 'misdemeanor', Sir."
Last time I checked Transparency International's Corruption Perceptions Index, Sweden was tied for first and India 85th (well behind Qatar, United Arab Emirates, Jordan, Cuba and Bahrain). Are there corrupt people in Sweden? Of course, there are corrupt people in every country. Do I see corruption in Sweden as a big problem. A big NO.
My post at 5:30 PM was a response to IndianTiger, not Infidel Pride. Sorry about the mix-up.
@Daniel D
I am not here to discuss with you the pros and cons of Socialism or Capitalism. You brought the subject up as a distraction, so I responded. Your condescending remarks that "Indians undoubtedly feel different about the word Socialist" is ignorant in the extreme and leads me to believe that you think all Indians are the same - all one billion of them!
Sweden might not have the word "Socialist" written in its constitution, but its people have many times elected administrations with socialist policies, typical of which are free health care, education and welfare state, to name but three. We in Britain have no written constitution, but guess who has been in power for the last ten years. Thats right a Socialist Labour government. China is communist but evidently also plays the capitalist game very well. That's what I meant by "so what". Obviously you appear to regard socialism as greater threat than the absence of democracy, secularism and sovereignty.
Again, your hangups about specific words are coming in way of proper debate.
I brought up the matter of Bofors precisely because you brought Socialism into the debate to which I gave a very pertinent example of Bofors - though what all this has to do with India's relationship with Israel only you can tell.
See, just from the above two responses of mine to your posts regarding Socialism, Capitalism, Corruption etc. how much you have veered from the original purpose of this thread, brought in spurious arguments and have completely ignored my examples to you of the very good relations India has with Israel - in line the purpose of my original post.
Just look at the pictures of Indians braving the inclement New York weather, not to mention a greater threat from islamists who might come calling if they found out who these people are, demonstrates to me their solidarity with the Jews killed in the Mumbai atrocity. If this isn't proof enough for you about many, many Indians camaraderie with Israelis, than there is nothing I can say or do to change your mind.
Best to just leave you be, eh?
" "In fact it was the riches of India that led to the discovery of America..."
posted by: dd
This is false. It was increasingly bad weather in Greenland and Iceland, as well as rich fishing that led the Vikings, Irish, and Bretons to the coast of North America.
This was several hundred years before Columbus tried to find a Western route to the East Indies."
Technically what you say may be true, but for all practical purposes it was Columbus who discovered America and the proof of it is that Native Americans are called Indians and parts of America are called Indies. Only after Columbus did American colonization by Europeans start. And the cause of this was India or rather its manufactured products spices.
I did not bring up Socialism, "Hermit", YOU brought up the issue of why I said that "I've been told India is a democracy" and I gave you two examples of why I'm not so sure about the greatness of India's democracy: the word "Socialist" in the constitution and the way its government are on the same side as rogue states on almost every issue at the UN. If you're not worried about that, fine. But don't call me condescending for saying Indians feel different about the word Socialist. They clearly do! The majority of Indians accept the word in the freakin' constitution. I (and the majority of Swedes) do NOT accept that -- and that's the reason the word is NOT IN THE CONSTITUTION. Can you really not see the difference between a country where Socialists win certain elections (Sweden), and a Socialist state (India)?
And of course I don't think "all one billion of them [Indians]!" are the same. I am sure millions of Indians deplore socialism as much as I do.
Yes, this post was about Indians protesting against jihad at the UN. And it is great that they do so. I hope that in the future they have a government that backs them up -- not a government that stabs them in the back by using the UN to condemn one of the few countries (Israel) that actually FIGHTS against the Jihadists.
Like Daniel D, many Hindus are also outraged at India's voting record at UN. As I said earlier, this has happened mainly during the rule of Congress party, not during BJP rule. While Daniel D has many valid points, the choice of his language at times is arrogant and offensive. So, here are my arrogant responses to his offensive comments.
1) His comments "India is not a friend of the civilized world..." If you used the word "civilized" to mean an evolved culture, then I have news for you Daniel D. We were civilized long before your people. We were living in orderly cities like Mohanjodaro and Harappa when your Viking ancestors were still living in caves and eating raw meat. We were contributing to mathematics and astronomy centuries before Europe knew these sciences. We gave the world the decimal system of counting, including the concepts of zero and decimal point. So, you can stop feeling smug about being European in case your use of the word "civilized" meant an evolved culture.
2) Daniel D: "Per capita income (nominal) at less than $1000. Congratulations!
Yes, that may be true but any two bit economist from Sweden will tell you that it is not the per capita income that matters, it is purchasing power parity that matters. On the latter scale, Indians have the purchasing power that ranks in the top 7 in the world. That is why the Nokia's and Ericsons have made a beeline to India. $1000 does not buy much in your inflated, in-practice socialist Sweden but it buys a hell of a lot of goods and services in India.
3)Your observations about the Congress government 's soft pedaling of Islamic terrorism are very valid. They are notorious Muslim ass kissers. But, Sweden's record in this matter is hardly worthy of emulation. You people have allowed unabated Muslim immigration to Sweden (when you have the power to stop it) and places like Malmo are virtual Islamic cities. In response to patriotic Swedes' concerns about swamping of Swedish culture by Islam, your own government ministers have said
"what is Swedish culture?". In my view, Sweden wins Europe's "Dhimmi nation" award hands down. Denmark has shown more balls than Sweden ever will.
My point: don't throw stones at others when you live in a glasshouse. Afterall, as JW readers, we are on the same side: anti-jihadis, Islamophoebes. So, let us stick together to defeat the jihadi scum.
Do not forget yoga and meditation the idea of mind body connection and how the mind controls the body thousands of years before modern science made any sense of it.
Unfortunately, the Indian populace is not being heard by dhimmi Indian govt. Look it this way; The PC Congress is akin to the Democratic Party here in the US. Do you agree with 100% of either the Republican/Democrats party?
The populace vote isn't always how the gov't votes. It's as simple as that.