That elephant is, of course, Qur'an 4:34, which states: "Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great."
Granted, starting such a discussion in Saudi Arabia could result in the separation of one's head from one's neck for blasphemy. But that is precisely why violence against women will remain such an intractable problem: As long as sharia is the law of the land, no mere mortal can take away a man's "right," granted by divine fiat, to strike the women under his control.
Those who are interviewed below tread lightly for obvious reasons, and there are some vague and unenforceable platitudes about kindness. "Be kind" is a relative statement, especially if one should choose to define kindness as doing what one believes to be "best" for another person. "Don't beat your wife" is a much clearer injunction, but since the Qur'an says otherwise, the only "progress" that may come in this context is hair-splitting on the frequency and severity of the beatings. And since women are shrouded from head to toe and largely confined to the home anyway, there is no reliable verification of "acceptable" or "unacceptable" beatings until a woman winds up in the hospital, or worse.
"Saudi Rights Body to Launch Drive to Check Violence against Women," by Habib Shaikh for the Khaleej Times, December 27:
JEDDAH — The Human Rights Commission (HRC) is to launch a kingdom-wide campaign to stop violence against women. The year-long drive will be inaugurated by Princess Hussa bint Tarad Ashaalan, wife of the Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques King Abdullah bin Abdulaziz, on Monday.
Wafiqa Al Dakheel, supervisor of HRC’s women’s wing, explained that the campaign is aimed at enlightening women of their rights as part of its responsibility to Saudi society.
According to press information, the campaign comes in the wake of the growing number of cases of domestic violence across the kingdom. Nearly 230 such cases were reported in Riyadh this year. The capital accounts for around 29 per cent of divorces in the kingdom.
Enaam Raboue, president of the Association for Family Protection in Jeddah, said her organisation received more than 250 family violence cases in the last five months.
She added that mental illness, drug abuse, alcoholism, poverty, unemployment and a lack of religious commitment and education were some of the reasons for family violence. The Council of Ministers last month reiterated the government’s resolve to protect the rights of women. It also called for more efforts to increase awareness among women about their rights.
Abdullah Saaty of the Jeddah Community College said that there was a dire need to change the attitude of society to women’s rights. “Islam protects the rights of women. The holy Quran and Sunnah urge Muslims to be kind to women. But we are not doing that,” he said.
Abdul Razak Al Zahrani of Imam Muhammad bin Saud Islamic University said a committee of experts should be formed to look into family violence cases. “Newly married couples must be given guidance on how to avoid conflicts in family life,” he said, and added that mosques, schools and the media have their roles to play.
Al Dakheel stressed the need to provide legal and social assistance to women who are victims of family violence. “The campaign will highlight the importance of devising an effective plan to stop violence against women and establish centres to treat the victims of such violence,” she added.
The campaign also aims to educate men on the need to improve their treatment of women. [...]
According to a study conducted by Khaled Al Radihan, an assistant professor of anthropology at King Saud University in Riyadh, involving 267 women, social, verbal and economic abuse of women is more widespread in Saudi society than physical and sexual abuse.
In his questionnaire, Al Radihan classified violence into eight categories — physical, verbal, sexual, social, psychological, health-related, economic and violence in the form of negligence and deprivation — and gave examples illustrating each type of violence.
He categorised the 267 women into married and single. Results showed that married women are abused mainly by their husbands; single women are abused by their male siblings more frequently than their fathers.
He said that economic abuse is when the husband forcefully takes his wife’s money or when he applies for a bank loan under her name without her consent.
The results of his research showed that 67 per cent of women suffer from economic abuse. “Economically abusing a woman also includes depriving her of her inheritance, which is very common here,” he added.
According to Al Radihan, there are many reasons for violence against women. She could be really stubborn and difficult to deal with, she might have unbearable financial demands and she might not obey her male guardian.
“The majority of men who abuse their women violently do so because of ‘male honour and female infidelity,’ which damages a man’s reputation that he believes, can be partially restored through the use of violence,” he added.
Moreover, women are subjected to violence because of a lack of solid safeguards. It is difficult for victims to reach out for help because of the bureaucracy of security organisations, and lack of family guidance centres.
“It’s still a taboo for women to talk about these issues to people outside their family. We need to spread awareness among these women and educate them about their rights. We need to provide enough support and assistance while maintaining confidentiality to encourage women to seek help when they need it,” Al Radihan said.
She added that mental illness, drug abuse, alcoholism, poverty, unemployment and a lack of religious commitment and education were some of the reasons for family violence.
.....................
A "lack of religious commitment"? Good Lord.
more:
The Council of Ministers last month reiterated the government’s resolve to protect the rights of women.
...................
I would specifically ask if the Council of Ministers believe that it is a woman's right to a life free of violence--independent of her obeying her husband and male relatives. I wonder how they would answer?
more:
“Newly married couples must be given guidance on how to avoid conflicts in family life” he said
...................
Does this mean the same thing it would in the West? Or is it as much a call for women to understand that under Islam it is incumbent upon them to obey their husbands as it is for men to stay their hands?
This, from above, may answer this question:
"...there are many reasons for violence against women. She could be really stubborn and difficult to deal with, she might have unbearable financial demands and she might not obey her male guardian."
more:
“The majority of men who abuse their women violently do so because of ‘male honour and female infidelity
.................
Please note--"infidelity" does not necessarily mean what it does in the West, either. It can mean something as minor as a woman going out to visit a friend without her husband's permission.
more:
“Islam protects the rights of women. The holy Quran and Sunnah urge Muslims to be kind to women.
.................
Please note--"Muslims" here clearly refers only to men. These men are urged to be "kind" to women--rather like being kind to one's dog. This does not address rights at all--it is only an appeal for kinder treatment of one's chattel. But this is about as enlightened as you are likely to find in Saudi Arabia for the forseeable future.
The doublethink that would be required to have a conference on violence against women in Saudi Arabia - to ignore the 'elephant' that you refer to Marisol - staggers the imagination.
I can think of another white elephant in the room, and that's the man behind the madness, Mohammad himself. Sounds like allah is a god of his own evil imagination and selfish desires, because those are not the kind of directives the One True God has given to husbands.
Christ taught husbands to love their wives sacrificially and to put their needs above his needs, not to treat their wives like slaves.
Islam is just so backwards and evil. No thank you.
"...there are many reasons for violence against women. She could be really stubborn and difficult to deal with, she might have unbearable financial demands and she might not obey her male guardian.
You know, I've heared the same complaints from other "woman-owners."Take my word for it, you've been too soft...if she doesn't come around when you kick her out of bed or lock her in her room for a week without food and water only every other day, then you have to resort to the same means used by Mohammed (pbuh): a heavy tightly-clinched fist straight across her chest will weaken her determination. Ayesha knows that.
Then there's the "blade of grass" not thicker than your thumb. Make sure it's green and flexes like a leather thong. A few well-placed stripes with that across her bare skin will raise fine red whelts and make her more compliant. If you can't find something as small as your thumb, then anything you can grab in your hairy mitt will work. Be careful though not to break her bones. She might not be able to do housework then.
How about if you get real unlucky and kill her? No problem! Just say she was disrespecting you and bringing dishonor upon you and your family. If the mutaween don't buy that, then tell them she had apostasized herself and you were simply carrying out the will of Allâh, the Kind and Merciful, the Beneficent and Most Wise, the Lord of All Worlds and the Keeper of Hell.
The Will of Allâh is my Command!!
From "Disciplining Women and Other Slaves for Muslims and Other Dummies" (c)4AH
From article: She added that mental illness, drug abuse, alcoholism, poverty, unemployment and a lack of religious commitment and education were some of the reasons for family violence.
They have these right under the nose of Allah's official residence? I though Saudi Arabia was the capitol of the peace and purity of Islam.
Sounds like trouble in Paradise...I don't think the problem is one of lack of religious commitment. It's the permissive practice of religious commitment 4:34, and biased against women Shariah that is the problem...As long as Mohammadans believe that Allah gave them permission to physically punish their wives, they will physically punish their wives. The only questions are, how severe and how often...?
If the issue were just 4:34, that would be bad enough, but it's worse than that.
There are men who batter their wives just for the fun of it.
These men are sadists and enjoy inflicting punishment worse than we can imagine.
On going punishment that if done carefully, will never be exposed.
There are plenty of western men who have the 'I own you' mentality about their wives, and may be brutal, but in the west spousal abuse is against the law. And easier to detect...
Quran 4:34 not only empowers corporal punishment of female spouses, it legitimizes depraved Mohammadans who get off on that sort of thing...
Allowing them to hide behind the Quran to fulfill their perverted, and depraved needs...
Some might call this 'evil'...
The 'law', except sharia, does not recognize 4:34, but it may be just a matter of time until it does...
Saudi Arabians celebrate the conference on violence against women by performing a public clitorectomy on an 8 year old girl. I guess she really doesn't qualify as a "woman".
Much of mohammedanism is simply the legitimation and codification of primitive, brute behavior -- the law of the jungle so to speak.
Which is why the rest of us have to quarantine and ultimately eliminate sharia.
We've just spent 5 or 10 millenia trying to get away from all that.
After living and working in an islamic country you learn one thing. Everything is a lie to deny the truth about islam. Pedophiles are easily 80% of adult men. Sex with boys is done by all that can afford to keep them. Violence against women is not violence if it is discipline. islam is filthy and condemns the believer to a life with a soul and an eternity with satan.
What hippcute you all are. Wife beating is also very
common in christianary where I live all the women in women shelter are christian women.
DefenderofIslam -- your moniker alone indicates that you have shit for brains; but in response to your above comment, I challenge you to find but one verse in the Bible that supports wife beating, since you're suggesting that wife beating is "very common in Christianity".
Jesus Christ, the one whom Christianity is based upon, did not approve of wife abuse you moron -- unlike your pervert prophet who wrote the Qur'an. He DID approve of wife abuse.
You're a complete idiot for suggesting that Christianity supports wife abuse. Well of course you're an idiot, given the fact that you support and "defend" Islam.
Islam is for losers.
Defender of Islam; And where are the shelters in Islamic countries? And what exactly do you mean by "very common"? And where in the Bible, or the laws of any democratic, Christian country, is anything which condones it?
Yes, I know, a waste of time asking.
"hippcute" ...huh? Yeah, we are hip and we are cute. Thank you! LMAO!
DefenderofIslam,
WTF are you saying, man! I think I have given you advice before please learn English!!! You know I do not get what you are saying I mean what the hell is, "hippcute", "christianary".
This proves the point that many have said on this site and articles written on JW/DW that Islam retards the human mind. DOI you are case in point.
In response to the last comment about Christians beating their wives and others:
First off, wife beating is common all over the world in almost every religion. In America, Europe, the Middle East, and Africa. So it doesn't have to be associated with any religion or region at all. Even Those who have no belief system at all commit the same atrocities, and please do not get me wrong, I am certainty not providing an argument from the Masses. Any violence toward a women should be condemned in my opinion.
Question: why are these Christian males beating their wives? Is it because of something unrelated to Christianity? Is it because the wife isn't "Christian enough", or could it be that that male doesn't understand the main tenants of the Christian faith. The same questions can be applied to Islam.
I think the main problem here is the miss understanding of our basic human rights and how they relate to the religions we choose to worship. Does the Bible approve of a husband beating his wife? What about The Quran or Sharia Law. Unless there is an explicit "ok" in any of these religions texts(and not out of context), there should be no attempt on our part to try and justify this violence and pain by theological debate. Those debates should be reserved for matters much more deeply focused on the true nature of God. We wont ever know the answer until we die and meet God ourselves. But if we are wrong, all those who suffered would have suffered for no reason. And if there is an explicit approval, then I would have to question the loving nature that God is defined as.
The only absolutes we need(if you believe you are a Christian or Muslim) is that 1) there is One God,2) our purpose on this earth is to Glorify him 2) and we do that by exercising our love and forgiveness to all of our fellow man. If people just follow those basic tenants, I see no need for domestic violence, and no difference between the different religions ideologies regarding the matter.
The Bible condemns wife abuse by demanding a lifestyle of love and compassion, which rules out ANY violence in the home. Whether abuse is mental, physical, or verbal, abuse does not fit with the Christian lifestyle. No member of the home has a right to hurt another family member. The same holds true for women who might abuse their husbands.
Ephesians 5:25, 28, 29: "Love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it . . . So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church".
If a husband loves his wife as Christ loved the church, he will not consider abusing his wife. Christ gave Himself for the church, and loves and nourishes it. As husbands follow Christ's example, then they will love and nourish their wives.
Genesis 2:24: "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh".
A man who abuses his wife acts as if he hates his own flesh, because he and his wife share this "one flesh" relationship; plus, common sense and a healthy conscience shows us that wife or husband abuse is wrong and is in fact a crime.
That was exactly the point I was trying to make for the Christian side. Now, I would like to hear what the Islamic side of the argument says(textually speaking). So if anyone wants to help, please do.
"Wife beating is also very common in christianary where I live all the women in women shelter are christian women."
Bwah hahahahahha! This is hysterical, "defenderofislam"! Thanks for the idiotic post! Um spousal abuse is a theme that is touched upon by all countries. But, here in the West, we have ways to deal with it. Punishment in jail. Arrest for abusers.
So, I assume you are in a predominantly Christian country. Are you enjoying your freedom? If you're male, do you miss beating your female relatives without impunity? And if you're female, then what in Christ's sake are you doing at a shelter for women? That's haram, take your place little donkey. Pick up your stick and beat the infidels in the manner proscribed by the quran.
Bwahhahahahah! Still laughing...
From post above: The only absolutes we need(if you believe you are a Christian or Muslim) is that 1) there is One God,2) our purpose on this earth is to Glorify him...
Are you sure that there is only one God shared by Christians and Mohammadans?
Do you believe that Allah is the one, true and only God?
Do you also believe that Mohammad was his messenger?
Are these 'absolutes'?
I know that my purpose on Earth is to NOT Glorify Allah...How about you?
Do you glorify Allah??
"The only absolutes we need(if you believe you are a Christian or Muslim) is that 1) there is One God,2) our purpose on this earth is to Glorify him 2) and we do that by exercising our love and forgiveness to all of our fellow man. If people just follow those basic tenants, I see no need for domestic violence, and no difference between the different religions ideologies regarding the matter."
Jnyoung-The problem with this seemingly logical statement is the naivete with which it is put forth. The quran does NOT contain within it love and forgiveness for our fellow men, let alone our fellow women. islam is not really a call for submission to God, it is a call to self-enslavement and delusion. Please, (and this version has been tamed somewhat from its hateful arabic version) try to read some of it:
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/k/koran/index.html
But, at least you've come to the right site for UN-"dhimmification." Welcome and good luck with that!
The Saudis seem to have caught on to the public information campaign idea. There's also another going on called "Rahwa," intended to convince Saudi Muslims to stop raping, beating, torturing and imprisoning their domestic sla -- servants. "Rahwa" apparently means "mercy."
"Mercy," note -- not "dignity" or "justice," or even "simple humanity," but "mercy," the willing suspension of rightful punishment by a superior to a guilty inferior. The same strange moral blankness is seen in the Saudi domestic violence campaign. "Muslims" are encouraged to stay the Koran-authorized disciplinary hand against "their women," much as an unkind donkey owner might be persuaded not to beat his animal because it looks bad on TV.
And whatever you believe about Christianity, the differences between Jesus and Mohammed could not be more pointed. Jesus defended an accused woman and shamed her stone-happy tormentors; he healed, taught, dined with and celebrated women, even in an age when women were viewed in that culture as muslimahs are now within their own. Mohammed, on the other hand, repeatedly ordered women stoned; raped them; imprisoned them; lied to and stole from them, even his wives; punched and sexually molested a child; encouraged the beatings of other women; and tantalized his followers with visions of robotlike female sex-slaves and receptive little boys in his paradise.
Here you go, Jnyoung, straight from the donkey's mouth:
"[4.34] Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and BEAT them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."
And that is just the beginning... Don't even get started with the sharia laws!
And there is this "lovely" verse
Qur'an 4:15 "If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four witnesses from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death [by starvation] claims them."
Now the Bible
Now early[a] in the morning He came again into the temple, and all the people came to Him; and He sat down and taught them. 3 Then the scribes and Pharisees brought to Him a woman caught in adultery. And when they had set her in the midst, 4 they said to Him, “Teacher, this woman was caught[b] in adultery, in the very act. 5 Now Moses, in the law, commanded[c] us that such should be stoned.[d] But what do You say?”[e] 6 This they said, testing Him, that they might have something of which to accuse Him. But Jesus stooped down and wrote on the ground with His finger, as though He did not hear.[f]
7 So when they continued asking Him, He raised Himself up[g] and said to them, “He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.” 8 And again He stooped down and wrote on the ground. 9 Then those who heard it, being convicted by their conscience,[h] went out one by one, beginning with the oldest even to the last. And Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. 10 When Jesus had raised Himself up and saw no one but the woman, He said to her,[i] “Woman, where are those accusers of yours?[j] Has no one condemned you?”
11 She said, “No one, Lord.”
And Jesus said to her, “Neither do I condemn you; go and[k] sin no more.”
You be the judge
in response to Duh_Swami:
1)I do believe that "we believe" in the same God, but that Muslims, Jews and Christians diverged back in the day and now believe in a different interpretation of the characteristics of that one God. If it wasn't the same God, the Jesus would not be considered a Profit in the Muslim faith. Moses and Abraham would not be central figures either.
2)I do still believe "Allah" is the one true and only God(even thought I am a Christian). The reference to the name "Allah" is the only difference I see. I don't call him "Allah", but I believe it is the same God. I just interpret his Character differently than Muslims do. In an extremely simplified example;--- two people know a third. The first person thinks the third is a nice guy, and the second thinks he is mean. It's still the same person, but the two individuals have different views on his personality.--- Please don't attack that comparison because it is two simple. It obviously doesn't take into account a lot of other things, but I find it useful. The differences between Christianity and Islam mainly become apparent after Jesus and Mohammed appeared on the scene.
3)I do not believe that Mohammed was his messenger, I never mentioned anything about Mohammed in the first place. I was talking about God. Last time I checked, Mohammed was not God in the Muslim faith. Secondly, Mohammed came after the Hebrew God had been established.
4)I do believe that glorifying "Allah" or "God" is an absolute. I think that is the biggest absolute (behind believing there even is a God). it does not matter which interpretation or what characteristics this God may posses,the Glorification aspect is just as important in both faiths.It should guide your choices Everything else is a sub-purpose for your life. In Islam, am I wrong in saying one you should first Love God, and because you love him, you Glorify him in all your actions.
The point I was trying to make by posting those absolutes is that regardless of whether you are a Christian or a Muslim, those basic tenants should(in my opinion) arrive at the same conclusion when talking about many social issues.
Lorfalcon:
---And, If Islam is about self-enslavement, then what are they self enslaving them selfs to? The only conclusion I can make is it to God. And if they didn't Love God and want to Glorify him because they love him, then why else would they "enslave themselves".
Look, I am not a follower of the Muslim faith and therefore do not believe in their interpretation of the "Character" of God, the significance of Mohammed or their views on who Jesus really was.
I also admit that my knowledge of the Muslim faith is not as extensive as most of yours, which is why i asked for someone to provide textual examples from the Quran.
You guys can tear what I said apart, and I will gladly accept any mistakes or misunderstandings I expressed. I welcome any warranted criticism.
Ignoring the troll...
Did the Saudis hold this one in KSA, or did they instead choose to hold it in Vienna?
Man I am telling you the one thing that still amazes me about Mohammedans is the deception that is so profound in their culture that it makes me sick to the core.
I mean this person posting above has to be a Mohammedan because of the idiocy of his post. They are always trying to some way connect the barbaric religion of Islam and the blood thirsty god allah to Christianity and Judaism as though they are the same.
The truth is they are not.
"---And, If Islam is about self-enslavement, then what are they self enslaving them selfs to? The only conclusion I can make is it to God. And if they didn't Love God and want to Glorify him because they love him, then why else would they "enslave themselves".
Look, I am not a follower of the Muslim faith and therefore do not believe in their interpretation of the "Character" of God, the significance of Mohammed or their views on who Jesus really was."
Jnyoung-Once again, your naivete comes out. But I would beg this question of you: Is there a difference between the historical Jewish God YHWH and that of the ursurper muslim God allah?
The difference is profound if YOU choose to seek an answer. Your "opinion" about basic tenets is simply not scholarly applicable to islam.
Neither Judaism nor Christianity call for conversion by sword; islam does. Conversion to any religion once you are muslim is NOT punishable by death in Judaism and Christianity; a thing which islam does in this day and age, and does so with impunity. In point of fact, because my son was born to a muslim man, he was born muslim. My son has chosen Christianity and could be stolen and/or murdered at anytime by his "privileged" father if he chooses that as an excessive whim.
My ex is here in the United States, but if he were to harm or take my son and flee to Egypt, his national country, there would be no condemnation for him. No justice for my son and certainly none for me, a woman and an infidel. He would NOT be extradited, because he is a muslim and, as such, would be completely in accord with the quran and sharia. Is that the god allah's true will?
Your point about "basic tenets" was taken into consideration and about the only reason I answered your post. The fact of the matter is that islam does NOT allow for the "basic tenets" let alone the golden rule: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Their children and their women are property, an expedience to be trained and used as human bombs or breeding cattle to be beaten. In fact, children and women are murdered in the West every day in the name of islam. Don't close your eyes to it! Look in the archives and you will see the murder of a young muslim girl, two muslim sisters, and a muslim Afghani model in the UK. What a bitter irony it is that only "infidel Westerners" are the ones to remember them and cry out for their justice. And yes, children and women are murdered everyday in the West; but NOT in the name of allah or any other god for that matter! There's the difference. It's not really a subtle nuance but a harsh and stark reality.
So YES, I say self-enslavement rather than submission. Because I FIND, I CONCLUDE, from my life experiences in the middle east and my extensive reading on the subject, that the islamic god allah, is a perversion and absolute insult to human life, especially if you are NOT a man. But hey, feel free to be so-privileged.
Further on the subject, although I am admittedly not completely proficient in Arabic, in etymology, the name allah is derived from the ancient arab name for the moon god, al-ilah. Quite different than Jehovah which is derived from hebrew, YHWH. Which means I AM. The name allah is a falsehood which has been perpetrated upon islam by mohamed. If mohamed had chosen an arabic version of I AM then perhaps more people would bow down to his version of God. But he did not and could not do so out of ignorance of the one true God.
...mohamed, hbhp... (hell be his paradise)...
So Jnyoung, if you are just naive, make a choice and educate yourself, and not with opinions, but with facts. Don't depend just on us here at JihadWatch! Get to reading and researching, make your own personal conclusions, a lot depends on it. But if you are a musselman, well then, please know that I am an educated intelligent woman fully in charge of her western life and sexuality and I am not easily incited to anger, especially by artifice. Only by false gods and prophets...
Peguy: My Koran says that verse 4:15 has been abrogated by verse 24:2, which ordains lashing for the unmarried and stoning to death for the unmarried. Starving to death was much too mild, and I suppose stoning and lashing are more fun for the men than watching someone starve.
Lorfalcon,
I truly do appreciate the time you have taken to address my opinions which I have based on the information i have. You have provided me with a new perspective. I apologize if i used this to help me learn about different view points in order to make better decisions and opinions. But frankly, healthy dialogue(which I believe we had) works well for me. Isn't that what this is for, learning through an attempt at healthy dialogue?
Just to set the record strait, I am a Christian an nothing else. I worship no form of Islam.(AT ALL) If it seemed like I might be a Mohammedan, you are mistaken. Maybe because of my naivety or inability to communicate my views well. Either way, I will research it more.
I don't see the Problem as being God, but those that claim to be the His messengers speaking His word and creating their own theologies(i.e. Mohammed, and individuals in the Christian faith)
Keep up what you are doing and I hope to continue to learn more from these dialogs.
If anyone here is interested
The Center for Democracy and Human Rights is a good resource on issues like this.
www.cdhr.info
"And, If Islam is about self-enslavement, then what are they self enslaving them selfs to? "
Muslims love being slaves to a master, like sado-masochists they are in a relationship that is a perversion of love, not love itself, and they extend that twisted relationship to each other, to themselves, and to strangers. Who or What would inspire this kind of perversion of love? I can think of one infamous figure...
[Cont.]
...and it ain't God.
Jnyoung-What I didn't tell you is that I was once like you. Seeing only with blinders. Re: your quote, "I don't see the Problem as being God, but those that claim to be the His messengers speaking His word and creating their own theologies(i.e. Mohammed, and individuals in the Christian faith)" I used to believe the same thing: That muslims just needed to experience life and freedom to have hind-sight and overcome their problems. That LIFE was sacrosanct. And then 9/11 happened...
I have posted this before, but it is worth re-posting: "Until 9/11 I was in abject dhimmitude also! But that all changed when I was seated next to my now ex-husband who watched a plane fly into one of my beloved towers and started saying, "Look at that! It's beautifu-" and cut himself off, looking at me. I finally understood that the enemy himself, a muslim who had no god in his heart, a muslim man because he was born muslim and thus privileged (in his eyes), the enemy was seated right next to me!"
Please bear in mind that my husband was and is a modern-minded muslim (only by birth, not by any particular adherence) and from the most "liberal" muslim country; Egypt.
It was an astonishing revelation for me. How could we believe in the same God? Had I taken all my muslim friends word for it? That our God was the same? Where was the islamic world's sorrow over the terrible acts of 9/11? Why were the philistines dancing not only in the streets of Jerusalem but in Bay Ridge, Brooklyn also? There was, of a necessity, some recrimination in the beginning from muslims in the West.(or so it's been said, but I never saw it.) But that all changed quickly with Bush's demolition of Afghanistan. And CERTAINLY there was no introspection and recrimination from the islamic world in the middle east for 9/11.
To be perfectly honest, I also have an abhorrence of theologies that are close-minded. "My way is the only way!" That is NOT what Issa came to teach! True Christianity is something one carries in their heart and extends everyday to strangers, be they Christian, Jewish, Hindi, Zoroastrianists, muslims, etc. etc.
But to answer you, NO, God is not the problem, extremists are! Yet let us remember that in extending our ideologies and sympathies, there are enemies who would see our death based on our choices and freedoms alone. My biggest problem with islam is the death or dogma treatise of it all. What I have learned in studying islam is that it does NOT allow for open discourse and evolvement. It allows only for punishments and decrees, subjugation of humans as property, and ultimately death to those who don't see it "their" way. There are no other tenets of islam. But one has to read "between" the five pillars of islam to see that fact clearly.
So, in response to your statement, "But frankly, healthy dialogue(which I believe we had) works well for me. Isn't that what this is for, learning through an attempt at healthy dialogue?" I say, bring on the healthy dialogue! I welcome it and your search for "truth!"
Jesus, defending a woman about to be stoned to death for adultery:
"Let him who is without sin cast the first stone."
Mohammad, encouraging the murder of women by stoning for adultery (and setting human progress back a thousand years):
"The stones should not be so big as to kill the woman with only one or two... but not so small as pebbles."
Islam has rocks in its head.