At first, this sounds like another dhimmi gesture. However, the monsignor makes clear that the Church's backing is only for the mosque's "cultural and spiritual identity, as well as its own religious identity"; but "if (the mosque) becomes something different [say, a breeding ground for jihadists and terrorists], civil society has a right to intervene." The monsignor goes on to ground this view in the Christian notion of separation of church (spiritual affairs) and state (politics). The problem, of course, is that there is no such separation in Islam, as affirmed by the popular slogan, Deen we Dawla: "Religion and State [are one]."
"Vatican: Church backs more mosques for worship," from Adnkronos, December 4 (thanks to Jeffrey Imm)
Vatican City, 4 Dec. (AKI) - Italy's Muslims can have more mosques as long as they are used as places of worship, said a senior Vatican official on Thursday. "The place of worship must have its own cultural and spiritual identity, as well as its own religious identity which is a fundamental element, and must not acquire any other identity," said Monsignor Gianfranco Ravasi, Vatican Cultural Council chief.Speaking after the arrest of two terror suspects in the northern Italian city of Milan, Ravasi made the remarks at a conference on interreligious dialogue at the Vatican.
"If (the mosque) becomes something different, civil society has a right to intervene," Ravasi said. "Here we are talking about a western society that distinguishes between religious and political spheres, however the mosque carries out a charitable function which is a special quality so that religion also has a social function."
"However, that sphere must not be exceeded. The mosque cannot turn into a centre for other means because it loses its function."
Ravasi's remarks came two days after two alleged terror suspects were arrested in the northern Italian city of Milan. The arrests sparked the anti-immigrant Northern League party to call for a freeze on mosque construction.
Recorded telephone conversations published in the Italian media suggested that the two Moroccans, Rachid Ilhami and Abdelkader Ghaffir were planning a terror attack on Milan's famous cathedral, the Duomo, during this year's forthcoming Christmas festivities.
This remark from somewhere in the Vatican should be put into the current context, and interpreted with the suavity it demands. Italy's Interior Minister, Maroni, has called for a ban on all further mosque building. The Northern League -- La Lega -- has echoed his call. Many, in other parties, also find this demand, at this point, after the latest business with the two Moroccans who plotted in a mosque and a "Cultural Peace Center" justified and worthy of support. Between the legacy of Oriana Fallaci, and the example, and efforts, of Magdi Allam, Italy is now less likely to yield to Muslim demands, or to succumb further, than France or Great Britain. Of course, it helps to have fewer Muslims in the first place.
A lesson for others. Don't let the Muslim population get so large that it will terrify the politicians into silence or, still worse, accommmodation.
How many does it take to cow politicians?
3 4 less?
Sorry ,3 or 4 .
Mercy is against God.
Mehrab means the place of war, the place of fighting.
Out of the mehrabs, wars should proceed,
Just as all the wars of Islam used to proceeded out of the mehrabs. The prophet has [had] sword to kill people.
ayatola komeni
Every mosque is a breeding ground for jihadists and terrorists.
What else?
Every mosque is a breeding ground for jihadists and terrorists.
Why take a risk?
Stop it before it becomes a problem...
Islam is not a religion.
A mosque is not a place of God.
This is simple stuff people. You'd think after 1,400 years, all these really smart people would pick up on this crap.
Instead of supporting more moques, the Church should be supporting more missionaries to bring the good news of the faith of Christ.
From the article:
"Recorded telephone conversations published in the Italian media suggested that the two Moroccans, Rachid Ilhami and Abdelkader Ghaffir
"were planning a terror attack on Milan's famous cathedral, the Duomo, during this year's forthcoming Christmas festivities."
Just to get through our heads what these evil Mohammedans, these haters of life and love and all things beautiful, these Orcs, were planning to desecrate and destroy:
Here's a few pictures of the Duomo in Milan, for those of us who haven't been lucky enough to travel to Italy:
http://www.aaanetserv.com/turismo/lombardia/images/duomo_milano.jpg
http://www.traveladventures.org/continents/europe/images/duomo01.jpg
http://www.photosbycrosby.com/Photos-Shelly/GothicDuomoMilan_resized.jpg
http://milan.arounder.com/milans_duomo_cathedral/
(make sure to click on the picture with the caption 'duomo interior stained glass';
then allow yourself to reflect on the depths of hatred and contempt and resentment and mean-minded contemptible depravity that could sit down and make plans to deliberately explode a bomb, or spray machine gun fire, within this Joyous Gard; to destroy its complex beauty and fill it with dead bodies).
The Italians would be completely justified in citing that threat - to the Duomo and its Christmas congregation - as a 'last straw'; as complete and sufficient reason for evicting from Italy every single Mohammedan and shutting down - and bulldozing flat, just to make the point - every single mosque on Italian soil.
@bigcatgirl
Just stop sending your missionaries to India to convert Hindus. How would you feel if India were to send thousands of missionaries in the US, denigrating Jesus and Christianity? But Hindus will never do that, so apply some reciprocity and show respect.
“A mosque is not a place of God.” mike trivisonno.
Well, according to Vatican it is. So to make statements like that is at least very arrogant.
Can we ban Nazi Party Headquarters?
The meeting place of La Costa Nostra?
A house where a Communist cell meets?
An arms storeroom for crazed weird homegrown political wack jobs?
A Weather Underground bomb making room?
So why can't we ban mosques?
Since there is no silly dhimmi separation of mosque and state, a mosque is not just a "religious" structure. It is also a political meeting house for the Islamic political ideology. Mombai is an excellent example of that ideology in action.
So why can't we ban mosques? They are obvious security risks.
Plotting in a mosque to blow up a church. And not just any church but the Duomo of Milan, the second largest Catholic church in the world.
"What a wonder it is! So grand, so solemn, so vast! And yet so delicate, so airy, so graceful!" --Mark Twain
http://www.sacred-destinations.com/italy/images/milan/duomo/resized/sunset-cc-gianni-d.jpg
Dumbledoresarmy is right. Duomi are symbolic of cities themselves in Italy. Each city has a duomo and in each city the duomo is the tallest structure. They are always surrounded by the cities' primary piazze as well. Toppling a duomo is symbolic of toppling a city. Italy should evict every single Muslim, as should the rest of Europe. Western history has too much to lose at their hands. This was the last straw as far as I'm concerned. Mosques have never been anything but sleeper cells, places where people go to be incited to hold pogroms, and places to which Muslim can give zakat (terror financing) with transparency. This goes back to the origins of Mohammedanism. They are all owned by the Ikhwan to boot, so no mosque can ever have an honest or positive agenda. Bulldoze them all, seize tehir assets, and evict the Mohammedans, immediatamente. Ciao brutti.
What Christian/Catholic missionaries do is not just only to do good to those whom they minister to, but bring the good news of the Gospel to the different corners of the world.
In places like India, religious orders such as the Missionaries of Charity which Blessed Mother Teressa of Calcuttia founded does a world of good. So much so that when Blessed Mother Teessa had passed, India gaved her a funeral close enough to be that of a state funeral.
maxilo:
Christian missionaries do not 'denigrate' anyone.
Barnabas Fund has a full report of the 50,000 Christians made homeless, numerous women raped, many killed and thousands injured in Orissa a month or two ago! The reason? They were not hindu.
Does this sound like 'reciprocity and respect' to you?
"Deen we Dawla"
That's why I read Jihad/Dhimmi Watch every day. I understood the idea, but now I have the terminology.
There is no reason to build new mosques in Italy anyway, let alone to not bulldoze the ones that stand.
Check it out:
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&pagename=Zone-English-News/NWELayout&cid=1228244896427
(By way of IslaminEurope; thanks, Esther).
Instead of supporting more moques, the Church should be supporting more missionaries to bring the good news of the faith of Christ.
Posted by: bigcatgirl13106
I agree, bigcatgirl13106. The monsignor, et al, have got to be kidding! Their priority is the gospel of Christ, which is diametrically opposed to the tenets of Islam, not in supporting this false religion/prophet/god. I am completely shocked at their wrongheadedness.
What's Israel's policy on allowing mosques to be built, or demolished? If no valid permit, then no mosque. No permit for terror cells hiding in mosques. No mosque, then one less invasion cell of jihad present. It's a no brainer.
Recorded telephone conversations published in the Italian media suggested that the two Moroccans, Rachid Ilhami and Abdelkader Ghaffir were planning a terror attack on Milan's famous cathedral, the Duomo, during this year's forthcoming Christmas festivities.
......................
Milan's glorious gothic duomo is the second largest Catholic cathedral in the world. There has been a basilica on this site since the *fifth century*.
Dumbledore's Army and Poetcomic1, thanks for the pictures.
Here's another image of what these barbarians wanted to attack:
http://www.matterhorntravel.com/2007/images/Composers_Italy/Milan-Cathedral.jpg
Hello jdamn
Don't bulldoze it. Turn it into a pork processing facility, or maybe a warehouse to store wine!
No. Bulldoze it and turn it into another Oriana Fallaci memorial like the one in Verona. Repeat until no more remain. Then, in a few years, they can just sanctify her. They'll pretty much have to, what with all the memorials to her.
" @bigcatgirl
Just stop sending your missionaries to India to convert Hindus. How would you feel if India were to send thousands of missionaries in the US, denigrating Jesus and Christianity? But Hindus will never do that, so apply some reciprocity and show respect.
Posted by: maxilo"
maxilo;
Sending the word to others is not the same as sending " thousands of missionaries in the US, denigrating Jesus and Christianity". Christians are required to spread the word, but never by force, a gift must not be forced on the unwilling.
bigcatgirl's post was a reflection of that requirement, from a keeper of the faith.
The Mohammedan plot to attack the duomo in Milan calls to mind one of Mr Fitzgerald's very best postings, 'What's At Stake', on the topic of what we stand to lose if the jihad takes Europe. I copied and saved it, in a file I have labelled 'Reasons For Resisting'.
Here it is.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/006213.php#comments
Read it: and the thread which followed.
Sorry: the link in my posting above, to Hugh's 'What's At Stake', should in fact be this:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/006213.php
Islam started merely as a copy of the Arian sect of Christianity which believed Christ only as a human being.
Arianism was started by an Alexandrian priest Arian; Catholic Church rooted it out with the might of the Roman Empire when Christianity of Trinitarians became the official religion of the barbaric Roman Empire now called the Holy Roman Empire.
During Muhammad's time, one of the Roman Christian Emperor Herkel was a believer of Arianism; in response to a letter from Prophet Muhammad of Islam, this emperor sent Muhammad 1000 camels full of arms and other utilities; this prompted Muhammad to go against the Roman enemies: the Jews; thereafter Muhammad massacred thousands of Jews in Arabia.
Islam is essentially a Roman Christianity set in the medieval Arab Bedouin culture: same mythology, same prophets, same religious orders, only Arab cultural customs are added instead of Roman.
All modern Muslim countries are former Christian colonies; and all modern versions of Islam are essentially an imitation of Roman Christianity: more respect for Muhammad than Allah; making Muhammad almost a son of Allah,
Therefore when the present King of Saudi Arabia came to Vatican and presented his Islamic sword to the Pope, it was to acknowledge that the modern Islam is essentially a subservient of Christianity, politically, spiritually as well as militarily.
same is the case with Iran: President of Ahmedinijad is a Jesuit Christian posing as Shia Muslim, playing "Taqayya" - disguise:....(A recent example of the international political manipulation by Jesuits: Madam Hilleary Clinton was competing with Obama in Democrat primaries in USA ; Hilleary is an extremist Methodist Christian, Methodist Christianity is a branch of the Anglican Church but spiritually the Methodists follow Jesuits. During election primaries Hilleary Clinton needed Jewish votes, and help came from an unusual Jesuit quarter. The Iranian President Ahmedinijad is known to be a secret Christian Jesuit, belong to be a Portuguese Christian family settled in Iran in 16th century, they superficially accepted Islam but has been practising Taqayya (disguise). Ahmedinijad, an engineer by profession, got himself elected president of Iran through underhand support of the secret Christian Jesuits (who pose as Mullahs in Iran) and other such organisation in Iran. As soon as Hilleary needed Jewish votes, Ahmedinijad suddenly and without any context threatened Israel with destruction and extinction with nuclear bombs, Hilleary replied with a response-threat of destruction of Iran. Result: Hilleary got all the US Jewish votes she needed, How convenient! What a manipulations; and if there is a war, only
Iranians and Israelis might be killed, Jesuits and Methodist Christians as well as Hilleary Clinton and Ahmedinijad will remain safe and sound.....!)
Oh dearie dearie me.
ladies and gentlemen, I thought no westerner could match the conspiracy theories the Mohammedans come up with, but if 'humanists' above is a denizen of the west, it appears that I was mistaken.
Bigcatgirl
India is different... Imagine what kind of funeral Mother Theresa would have had in Saudi Arabia.
First , her ministry would have never been allowed over there.
How long is it going to take to the Catholic church to understand that it is waste a time to try to be understanding with the Mahometans?
but please , you don't have to turn the left cheek before being hurt first on the right one because you will have a good chance to be beheaded.
Experience taught us that you cannot believe one word coming out of the mouth of the imams.
I hate Jesuit conspiracy theories. I've heard them all. They're evil, they're a cult, they're sexist, etc. None of it's true. I attended a Jesuit school. Jesuits are just Catholics who place an extra emphasis on service. They don't actively recruit and they don't persecute those who leave. 3 priests left the priesthood that ran the school while I was there and none of them were persecuted in any way, not for leaving the priesthood, and not for being gay, as 2 of the 3 were. They also made a nun the principal. We were all required to do community service our junior year, I think 100 hours, and not half-assed community service either; the kind where you show up and everyone assumes you're in trouble with the law. We had to actually work with the poor. We couldn't tutor kids or volunteer at a hospice. I didn't get out of anything even though my back was broken in four places that semester.
Mohammedanism is mostly derived from very twisted Bible stories and its practices are mainly Jewish, what with fasting (not a Christian practice), the lack of a priesthood, the dispersion of authority, etc. It came out of Mo's jealousy of teh Jews and Chrstians around him, and most of what he "understood" of the Bible came from Jews who probably intentionally messed-up the stories so that intellignet people would always know that Islam is unarguably a crock. The "Christians" with whom Mo was in contact were a heretical group out of Iraq, not India, who believed that Mary was part of the Trinity and that the Trinity constituted polytheism. Khadija's sister was one of them, and she performed their marriage ceremony.
Jdamn
You are absolutely right A Jesuit education is the best one for a boy.
Jesuits have been educating for centuries not only Christian boys but all sorts of different religion
The best leaders in Europe were educated in Jesuit schools.
and you know why some idiots are so hateful towards the Jesuits ...... jealousy and envy
Idiots like that are very unhappy, their tongues are full of venom and it is not even worthy to start talking with them until their spit their hate and are able to listen.
Yeah, it's like Jeremiah Wright and the Jews. He went to a primarily Jewish school and couldn't keep up with the Jewish kids. Same deal with peole who go to college with kids who attended Jesuit schools. Most of them, like the one I attended, are actually prep schools and mine did a very good job at preparing me for college. I got into every school to which I applied. They're not some elite club and they don't force their religion on anyone. There were lots of Jewish kids, Protestants, a few Hindus, etc. Teachers all wanted to teach there, even though they got paid less than their public-school counterparts.
humanists wrote:
This is just what Islam needs to secure Islamisation of the West - the left wing, conspiracy theorists like humanists above. I have never read such rubbish in all my days. This even beats the 9/11 & 7/7 Conspiracy theory and has to be the wildest I've ever read.