Including an impromptu mass prayer facing Mecca. The Catholic church observed that "Saturday's demonstration contained elements that were alien to faith and religion." Actually, depending on which "religion" one is talking about, these "elements" -- euphemism for rage, hate, intolerance, supremacism, intimidation, violence -- may well be part of it.
"Muslim apology over prayers outside Milan Cathedral," by Nick Squires for the Telegraph, January 9:
Islamic leaders in Italy are to apologise to the Roman Catholic Church after a pro-Palestinian march ended in Muslims burning Israeli flags and praying in front of Milan Cathedral.
The sight of ranks of men and boys kneeling in prayer in the piazza directly in front of the Gothic building incensed many Italians, with photographs carried on the front pages of many newspapers.[...]Mario Borghezio, who is also an MEP, said: "The prayer to Allah recited by thousands of fanatical Muslims is an act of intimidation, a slap in the face for the city of Milan, which must remain Christian." Muslim leaders now want to meet with Milan's archbishop, Cardinal Dionigi Tettamanzi, to "clarify" what happened at the weekend, when the demonstrators diverted from their previously agreed route and staged the impromptu prayer to Mecca.
While trying not to stoke the controversy, the Catholic Church was deeply uneasy with the mass prayer outside the Duomo, which is the world's largest Gothic cathedral and the third-largest Roman Catholic church in the world, after St Peter's in Rome and Seville cathedral.
An editorial on the website of the Diocese of Milan said prayer was a universal human right but that Saturday's demonstration contained elements that were alien to faith and religion.
Around 5,000 Muslims, most of them immigrants to Italy, took part in the march, with some carrying banners depicting the Star of David defaced by Nazi swastikas.
I like the quotes around "religion," Robert. I hope that this may signal a slight change in your classification of Islam, but not your approach.
Dammit. It was Raymond. I'm an idiot.
Given the opportunity, many, and I mean many, Muslims would love to destroy Christian structures like the Cathedral of Milan, especially if any of these on their walls have Mohammed depicted in Hell a la Dante. Italy is a prime target of Islamic barbarism precisely because it contains so much extraordinary Christian art. Think Buddhist statues in Afghanistan here as a primer.
Sorry for the triple post, but I find this to be a good time to mention (given the dialogue which I have apparently initiatied with myself) that Islam is not recognized as a religion in Italy. One of the main reasons for this is the refusal to recognize Israel among every council of Muslims which they have convened over the last 7 years to try to get Islam recognized as a religion. Again, we could learn from the Italians on this point.
jdamn,
"Islam is not recognized as a religion in Italy"
Do you have a link backing this claim up?
Forgive my skepticism but this so called apology just ain't gonna happen . . .
The article itself degrades the assumption/anticipation of a forthcoming apology from:
down to:
Don't know about you 'all, but I'm not holding my breath till a sincere apology materializes.
jdamn everyone makes mistakes. Just look what we let into America.
I hope that the Archbishop is not taken in by Muslim lies about the apology about veering out of the way. It was staged and they know it.If not then it was well-orchestrated by someone inside the march.
"Muslim leaders now want to meet with Milan's archbishop, Cardinal Dionigi Tettamanzi, to "clarify" what happened..."
What these Muslim leaders really mean is thus:
"We may have been a bit rash, oh we still want to conquer Rome and your civilization, but for now we don't want you joining the Jews against us"...
I think they realize they may have bitten off more than they could chew. This is nothing more than a tactical move to prevent a Catholic backlash. It is the good ole Islamic good cop/bad cop nonsense we have seen before...
The congregation of the Cathedral, led by the Bishop, would be well advised to now invite the entire non-Muslim citizenry of Milan to a formal circumnavigation and cleansing of the premises of the Cathedral, with a procession involving bell, book and candle, incense, crucifixes held aloft, holy water sprinkled on all sides, and the cathedral choir chanting anthems (the Te Deum and Gloria would be a good start; or perhaps the Song of Moses from the book of Exodus).
A very large, colourful and noisy procession through the streets of the city, taking in every Christian church, and then proceeding all the way around the city boundaries, would also be in order.
The patron saint of Milan is one of its earliest bishops, the scholar and teacher, St Ambrose (who takes part of the credit for the conversion of St Augustine, and who was a very important early Christian hymn-writer).
The holding of a public, formal, nine-day novena in the Cathedral close, so recently defiled by that revolting Muslim display of supremacism, aggressio and hatred, might also be advisable.
The non-Muslim citizens of Milan should be hard at work NOW, planning an all-stops-pulled-out Mardi Gras celebration; and more plans to be laid for Easter festivities.
Then there is the festival of St Ambrose, which is celebrated in Milan, thus:
"On May 7 [? all other sources say December 7] Milan celebrates the feast of its patron, Sant' Ambrogio. Young boys and girls bring donations in the morning to the Basilica of Saint Ambrose and lay them on an altar decorated with dozens of flower displays. This brings thousands of visitors who come for the spirit of the festival and the variety of food offerings."
Another account of that festival here:
http://newsblog.aboutitaly.net/2008/12/04/if-milan-2015-is-expothe-christmas-milan-is-“oh-bej-oh-bej“/en/
By way of showing the contrast between Islam (with its remote and capricious despot 'god', before whom Muslims grovel in terrified subservience) and Christianity, here is a prayer attributed to St Ambrose:
"Lord, teach me to seek you, and reveal yourself to me when I seek you.
"For I cannot seek you unless you first teach me, nor find you unless you first reveal yourself to me.
"Let me seek you in longing and long for you in seeking.
" Let me find you in love, and love you in finding."
This was a clear, purposeful, and spiteful warning to the Archbishop, to the Catholic Church, and in fact to every infidel in Milan.
"Next time, we're going inside, and there's nothing anyone can do to stop us."
What is "Christian" POTUS/Commander-in-chief, who pandered for "Christian" votes going to do? Besides parroting his master's message: http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/09/20010917-11.html
I bet the Pope just pray for them! He will just say forgive them. Even Jesus said defend yourself!
Muslims will go as low as they can go, or go as far as they are allowed to go. They smell blood, because of the liberal useful idiots. A note to those useful idiots called Muslims, everyone is not a liberal. Some of us know what you are up to. allah is not my god not is Islam my religion. Like all roads dont lead to the Vatican, not all religions lead to the true God.
In fact, God has no religion,religion is a man made means to get over on others using their innate desire to worship. Hellfire was created to bring fear of a deity and conform to the leader's commands or pay dues. No loving God burns people forever. Men cannot burn forever anyways. Cremation tells us that. Ashes to Ashes, dust to dust. Muslims need to be shown true love! (smile)
These times are MORE DANGEROUS than the NAZI ERA.
ISLAM IS (I can't believe it's necessary to say this)MORE DANGEROUS THAN NAZISM/FASCISM.
WHY?:
-Islam is disguising itself as a Religion ,WHEN IT'S THE ULTIMATE NAZISM!
-Islam is SO BOLD, that they KEEP PUSHING, as this INSULT to Christianity shows.
-Muslims are TELLING US that whether it's the Jews , the Christians,or the Hindus(Mumbai/India),
the Jihadists areAT WAR WITH US!
That's only in Milan. In Scotland according to my friend Frank, some radical Muslims were so kind to request Catholic Churches from displaying big crosses for it's insulting Islam which their mosque is built just accross the Catholic Church...
damn, they are really pathetic...
I agree with you, CHOI. Nazism is strictly junior varsity stuff compared to Islam. Secular totalitarian ideologies are more transparently evil. The iniquitous spiritual totalitarian ideology which is Islam is far more deceptive and difficult to criticize precisely because it is a religion; the only major religion which is evil. Many more unnecessary tragedies lie ahead for mankind because of this. Islam is indeed abominable.
So lets see.
Islamic run Nations either ban any other faiths from being practised or they force a Head-Tax on the persons and only allow the practise in private after agreeing to live by Shariah Law in Public , but these same people then move to non-Islamic Nations and try to transplant Shariah to attempt to stop other faiths in public via the Psychological/Financial Terrorism with public death threats to civilains and Lawsuits in the guise of a Hate-crime or Islamophobia.
Enough is enough.
There are close to 6'000'000'000 non-Muslims on Earth and we CAN NOT sit back and let this death-cult practise (created by Muhammad) continue to live in Denial for the "Minority" of Misunderstanders who use the same Quran to justify their beheadings and violence to kill all of us for Allah's cause.
The gloves are off and now I want PROOF that islam is a faith of Peace and the Shariah brings more Rights to people than our Western Contitutions and Charters for equality.
History may prove that 9/11/01 was the begining of the end to Western democracy by the islamist that have "Usefull idiots" on our soil that fell for the Taqqiyyah by CAIR and joined in with the leftists and 9/11 Conspiracy yahoos.
The only good news right now is that the islamists will start slaughtering all these weak and spinless leftists first since they have already volunteered to be killed as Human Shields once they fullfilled their purpose. This will also help thin out the Gene-Pool from the Humans that lost the Survival-gene to fight for Freedoms and Human Rights.
The murderous thugs in Gaza have the support of the Usefull Idiots here that can't see that the terrorists want to destroy a fellow Democratic U.N. Member and then come for us.
Why they even fell for the "It's not about religion" tripe while the protestors wave pro-Jihad flags for Hezballah and Hamas that ARE Islamic based death-squads.
Attention Mr.Hooper:
If you and CAIR can't handle these thugs now when they only make up a small number of Misunderstanders, what do you expect us to do if we use foresight to see the full-out Jihad and riots in the streets where your CAIR Lawsuits cause Police and Citizens to fear defending themselves or controlling the riotous mob of Misunderstanders ??????????
Let's have a barbecue in front of a mosque (with beer or wine)
Can you imagine what Oriana Fallaci would have to say? I'll bet many Italians are remembering her Cassandra-like RAGE and at last understanding it.
" Muslim leaders now want to meet with Milan's archbishop, Cardinal Dionigi Tettamanzi, to "clarify" what happened at the weekend,"
I have the oddest feeling of how this story will end. The Archbishop will call for understanding, peace and dialogue between two great Abrahamic faiths, while all the while Islam continues its deadly creep accross Italy and the rest of the Western world.
I would well understand if the Archbishop expresses his love for Muslim, and remineds them that Jesus also loves them, but if he does not also remined tham that Christians do not believe in Islam's Prophet or its God, Muslims will take his expressions of love for fear, weakness and lack of confidence in the Christian message.
The greatest enemy of Christian, and Western civilizatio, today aren't Muslims. It's Christian and Jewish religious leaders (but especially Christian religious leaders )that don't have the confidence in their own faths to tell Muslims the the truth about the moral depravity of Islam.
It's very possible that millions of Muslims might be waiting for someone to tell them the truth, but can't find people courageous enough to tell them.
If the Archbishop doesn't take a real moral stand now, it could be that a well placed bomb in St. Peters basillica might force him to do so later.
Muslims apologize? They must be feeling rather incensed at the very idea of being asked to apologize. My oh my, they sure do have a lot of apologizing to catch up on. There isn't enough time left on the clock, so they better get started soon. Tick-Tock.
Jerry M: I take it the barbecue will have as its main feature wonderfully spicy, in the best North Carolina tradition, spare ribs. Hey, why not pour it on and have a tasty meal at the same time while quaffing one's thirst with plenty of beer? Anything that can irritate the Muslim more, I'm all for.
So the star of David - can have a Nazi swastika - but Mohammed can't have a bomb??
Here's a clip showing more of the Vatican reaction:
""
The Vatican today expressed its 'unease' at the hundreds of Muslims who gathered in prayer outside a Catholic cathedral during a Gaza protest rally.
Cardinal Renato Martino, head of the Vatican's Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace, spoke out after photographs of Muslims kneeling in front of Milan Cathedral, towards Mecca, were published in Italian newspapers.
In the Vatican's official newspaper Osservatore Romano, Cardinal Martino said: 'For me the sight of people at prayer does not trouble me, it is good that people pray.
'But what really troubled me and left me uneasy was the fact that Israeli flags were burnt and there were slogans, all manifestations of hate and which followed a prayer session.'
There were similar scenes outside a cathedral in Bologna where local bishop Ernesto Vecchi also strongly condemned the sight of Muslims kneeling in prayer.
He stormed: 'This was not prayer. This was a challenge - not just to the cathedral but to our very system of democracy and culture. This is confirmation that there is a project to Islamise Europe.'
""
Daily Mail
Pray in front today, destroy tomorrow, build a mosque in it's place the day after...It's the Mohammadan way...And don't forget the minarets...
This was not an isolated incident . . .From the DAILY MAIL link provided above by Cole:
BRAVO . . .Bishop Ernest Vecchi .
The Muslims are getting bolder and more arrogant in their actions. This was a clear admission of superiority on their part. They are being more and more open in Europe... the time is fast approaching when they will be doing more than just demonstrating and uttering threatening words.
Three words:
Holy Hand Grenade
(Monty Python)
I would say that Islam is definitely more dangerous than Fascism. But seeing as how most of us now live in "progressive" entities that were once Western states, which is honestly more dangerous? The danger from outside (Islam) or the danger from within (Fascism)? Ask the Europeans...
Next time the Muslims do something like this - and they surely will, since they've gotten away with it this time - the Bishop (of Bologna, or of Milan, or of whichever diocese the Muslims choose to assail with their ostentatious and aggressive display) should be ready and waiting, with a team of bell-ringers. As the Muslims start their mass threat display, the bells should ring out at full volume, loud and long, and keep on ringing, all the way through the Muslim 'prayers', and for a good hour or so after.
Indeed, the Bishops could arrange for all churches within the city to ring as well. Mobile phones can be used by Christians, too!
Muslims HATE church bells. When they took Constantinople, when they invaded and occupied the Balkans, when they invaded and occupied Spain, one of the first things they did was to pull down and destroy the bells from all the churches.
So to ring the bells is the perfect act of defiance.
Yank on the bell- ropes, Italy! Ring the alarm! Like Tolkien's hobbits with the Horn Call of Buckland: "Awake! Fear! Fire! Foes! Awake!"
The most profound prayer is the heartfelt communication between man and the Infinite. Muslim prayer done in public is meant to challenge, to claim territory, to disrupt the normal flow of life of the people among whom they live. The implicit dare is "just try and move us". No one watching the spectace of this public display is impressed. The sham piety of these Muslims is transparent. One moment they pray; the next they are shouting slogans of death. The time for leniency is over. They will find that more and more westerners are on to them. The tolerance of non-Muslims is wearing thin with each new incident.
"Forgive my skepticism but this so called apology just ain't gonna happen . . ." - heroyalwhyness
I totally agree. Muslims apologize? It's literally unthinkable, even as taqqiya. They may lie about it, sure (in fact, I think I read elsewhere that the leader of the demonstration tried to say that the cathedral is simply where the demonstrators happened to be when the time for prayer came).
But it will most certainly not take the form of an apology to the infidels.
Let's have a barbecue in front of a mosque (with beer or wine)
Posted by: Jerry M at January 9, 2009 9:00 PM
I vote a pig roast.
As dumbledoresarmy says, ring those bells!
On another note, are there any links to pictures of this "event?"
". . .Islam is not recognized as a religion in Italy." - jdamn
"Arguing that Muslims can "pray anywhere" and do not need a mosque, Berlusconi's allies have blocked Muslims from building their own place of worship in Italy's business capital, Milan."
{http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSLG21402720080916}
""Unlike other religious communities, Italy's Muslims have yet to be formally recognized by the state. Other religions, including Judaism and smaller groups such as the Assemblies of God and the Seventh-Day Adventists, have signed agreements with the government, giving them official recognition and a chance to benefit from a national "religion tax."
Talks are under way to establish a formal dialogue, but observers warn that the Muslim community has yet to overcome internal divisions, and right-wing elements in the Italian government are intent on blocking all dialogue.
"There is a kind of resistance to formally recognizing that we are here," says Khalid Chaouki, president of the Young Muslims of Italy, complaining that some right-wing mayors refuse to authorize plans to build mosques and cemeteries. "It is very hard to make people realize we are people, not just Muslims.""
http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/1110/p07s01-woeu.html
Thanks jdamn!
I think you got to the story behind the story.
Anything that is beautiful, noble, majestic is anathama to Islam because it was anathama to Mohammad and his fictious God. Mohammad didn't like Music, He didn't like paintings or sculpture. He didn't even like Man's best friend, dogs.
Anything that enobles the human spirit had no place in his dark and twisted mind.
All the things that Mohammad hated are in Italy.
So why do Mislims immigrate to Italy, except to drang that beautiful place down, just as they've drug every other society down that they've ever touched.
Barbeque with ribs outside a mosque, accompanied by beer sounds like a good deal.
All that's needed is to pick a day for that, so that this can simultaneously happen in several cities simultaneously
It's so easy to rain
on mohammed's parade.
Walk big black dogs
in front of them.
Have hot Italian babes
strut their stuff,
in front of them.
Have handsome 'youths'
make farting sounds,
in front of them.
And ring the bells of freedom.
They have to fold up
their prayer rugs and go home.
It's in the books.
It's the rules of their game.
All it takes is courage.
It might be moot to remember that Jesus himself took a dim view, to the point of picking up a whip, of those who would defile his Father's house.
Denver Rodeo, here you go.
"Italian citizenship laws are very strict and, while obtaining work
and residency permits is not very difficult, in many cases even immigrants who have
lived in the country for decades cannot obtain Italian citizenship. A 2001 study suggested
that only 10,000 Muslims living in Italy had Italian citizenship [out of the one million residing there]."
"The Italian Constitution (Article 19) gives all citizens the right to freely practice and
proselytize for any religion (unless its rites are deemed to be against morality). All
religions are free to organize themselves and, according to Article 8, their relationship
with the state is regulated by law, based on agreements signed by the state
with the representatives of each religious community. The Catholic religion enjoys
a separate and privileged treatment, which was negotiated by the Vatican and the
Italian state in 1929 and then incorporated in the republican Constitution of 1948.
In order to be recognized and receive legal and financial benefits similar to those of
the Catholic religion, all other religions have to sign an agreement (known in Italian
as intesa) with the government, which regulates mutual rights and obligations." [This presents a good case for state religion and you know that people who adhere to legitimate religions do not feel marginalized in Italy - jdamn].
"Over the last 25 years various religious communities (such as Jewish, Protestant
and Buddhist) have done so. Even churches such as the Adventists and the Assemblies
of God, which consist of only a few thousand members, have managed to sign
an intesa. Islam, which is de facto the country’s second religion (if not among Italian
citizens, unquestionably among individuals living in the country), has not yet been
recognized by the Italian state as a religion." [Emphasis mine].
"As the Muslims start their mass threat display, the bells should ring out at full volume, loud and long, and keep on ringing, all the way through the Muslim 'prayers', and for a good hour or so after.
Indeed, the Bishops could arrange for all churches within the city to ring as well. Mobile phones can be used by Christians, too!"
DDA!!! What an amazingly great idea! Now-how do we get it to Italy?
I have an Italian friend I'm going to get in touch with. Maybe he has an idea or two...
The sight of ranks of men and boys kneeling in prayer in the piazza directly in front of the Gothic building...where are the women and girls?
Italians aren't having children. Who will defend the churchs when the muslims decide to attack or simply walk in and throw out the current users?
Maybe the Catholic's need to start having their most devoted get married and have kids. Like most other religions do.
Don't you think the muslims are eyeing the churches to see how hard it will be to convert them into mosques?
Italians are having no kids. Who will care?
The Italians, that's who, Borg. They'r enot having kids because he Euro welfare state has long since crashed down upon them and they're in their 30s and livig with their parents. Again, the problem is Islam. They know this. They need to get out of the EU.
DDA, I loooove your bells idea.
The Crusades 2 are coming.
Islamic violence is going to escalate and I would like to know how the West is going to counter it without the last resort of lowering our standards?
Let me get this straight. Some flags were burned. A bunch of people prayed. And there were some banners that were demeaning to non-Christians. And because of this, all of you have your underwear in a bunch? Get over yourselves. Your paranoia scares me much more than the actions described in this story.
Oh, and to ala-sux (Nice screen name, by the way. And you're complaining about Muslims defaming YOUR religion???) ... you wrote:
"...There are close to 6'000'000'000 non-Muslims on Earth..."
World population - 6.7 billion
Muslim population - 1.5 billion
Non-Muslim population - 5.2 billion
(800 million off, but who's counting, right?)
Possibly interesting:
Christian population - 2.1 billion
Non-Christian population - 4.6 billion
I'm hoping not all "non-Muslims" are as wacked-out and paranoid as you seem to be.
And I'm quite sure that "non-Muslim" does NOT equal "pro-Christian."
Non-Christian and non-Muslim population - 3.1 billion
"It might be moot to remember that Jesus himself took a dim view, to the point of picking up a whip, of those who would defile his Father's house."
That's exactly right Marwan's Daughter!! I remember the church teaching us children in elementary school that Jesus' anger was "RIGHTEOUS ANGER." Imagine that, righteous anger by indignant Italians. I so hope they veil is removed for Italy now.
Jeff in Chicago:
The problem is that these "beautiful" Muslim supplicants can pray in front of a Italian church but a christian supplicant can't pray in a Muslim country. And that's a fact, Jack. So disprove it.
I should quantify by saying in public.
Sorry,
jeff in chicago -- oh but allah does suck. allah was a false pagan moon god, so he sucks BIG time! Lets not forget his side-kick Muhammad, he sucks BIG time, too. Muhammad was a liar and a murderer. Not someone a sane or truly honest person ought to follow after. Would you follow after a murderer and a liar? Well, that's who "prophet" Muhammad was.
Nice quotation around religion...
Christopher Hamilton
The Right Opinion, for the Right Wing
Pope Urban
Its time to call the army to crusade.
Oh, breezy. Your paranoia shines through. The most populous Islamic state in the world is Pakistan. It is estimated that there are 2 million Christians in Pakistan. Some of them go here to pray. (For those of you who don't click on the link, it's a photo St. Patrick's Cathedral in Karachi. That's one BIG church!) Now, I'm not saying there's no religious persecution in Pakistan. There surely is. But I would point to the posts above calling for violence against people who prayed NEAR a church, not IN one.)
Even in Iran we find the Chaldean Church of Babylon, an Eastern particular church of the Catholic Church, maintaining full communion with the Bishop of Rome and the rest of the Catholic Church. The Chaldean Catholic Church presently comprises an estimated 600,000 - 700,000 members. (Source: Wikipedia)
Again, I'm not approving the behavior of Muslim religious fanatics. (Or fanatics of ANY religion!) But that doesn't mean you get to make stuff up.
@champ: How do you feel about Moses? Do you believe in the 10 Commandments?
Jeff...ever read the Quran, or any hadith? Are you speaking from a place of Islamic knowledge, or just speaking?
@duh_swami: No, I have not read the entire Koran. I understand it to be a pretty violent text. But moreso than the Christian Bible? I doubt it.
Jeff
And do they pray in public. I want prove.
@duh_swami: No, I have not read the entire Koran. I understand it to be a pretty violent text. But moreso than the Christian Bible? I doubt it.
That's a lame remark, really over used, and easily refuted. I don't defend the bible, some parts of it 'are' suspect, but the entire Quran is suspect...As well as ahadith...If you had actually studied Islam, listen to what Mohammadans say, and watch what they do, you would not be making uniformed remarks.
Do you believe that Allah is God? Do you believe that Mohammad was/is his messenger?
jeff in chicago :
You missed my point , islam wants to purge all non-Muslims from earth because we are all enemies of islam according to Muhammad and the Quran.
Don't blame me for the truth you may be offended by , and your Population Numbers are only the Documented persons for the U.N.Census for registered Nations that produce Population and forecasts tables .
Muslims are the ones boasting about how they are a Minority under threats from islamophobes , yet CAIR hijacks the 1.2 Billion number to boast their size as the fasting growing belief on earth.
It can't be both ways , either they are a Minority that needs protecting or they are a valid Global faith as one of the majorities in certian areas.
There are 56 islamic based nations and yet Israel is seen as the demon for being a nation with a faith-based Governance.
How ironic that you have to come to a non-Muslim nation to express your anger and disdain for me being allowed to have an opinion , I respect your right to attack me in words and false claims that try to provoke me to anger so you have more fuel to enjoy your Pity-party to blame everyone esle for your short comings.
I won't lets you transfer your hate and bitterness to me because that's exactly how evil works , you have no real life victories , nor do I think you have ever contributed to Humanity for a better world.
It's obvious that you want me to reveal information about myself and I'm not that stupid to fall for a troll that uses Muslim baiting to prompt a negative response and then play the victim.
BTW
I am over weight , so go ahead and do the shollyard bully tactic and stick out your tongue and say....."Oh yeah, yeah.....wellll...you're fat and have a ugly coat".
You needn't go all the way back to the Crusades to find Muslim atrocities carried out on Italian soil:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marocchinate
It's in the Koran, folks.
@breezy: Of course you want something I cannot provide. Nothing I could write would convince you. Photos of giant churches won't persuade you. But that's convenient for your argument. You believe every Muslim is a raving lunatic. You cannot imagine parts of Pakistan where a Christian might actually be able pray in public. Not even on the steps of that giant church. Nothing I can say will wrest that belief from your mind. I'm not going to try.
It does strike me as interesting, though, that you seem to want those of your belief to behave just the way your "enemy" does. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" means behave toward them as you would WANT them to behave toward you. It does not mean that you can demand they do so. I would be more impressed if you took the high road.
Why are there Muslims in Italy?!
JEFF IN CHICAGO!!! Where do you get this "violence" in the Bible crap? That happened thousands of years ago. It has no meaning for today! Today's Christians and Jews are more civilized! Are the Muslims more civilized today? NO!
Have the Muslims changed in any way since the Qur'an was written? NO! They are still living in the middle ages, still violent, hateful and murderous! And deceptive!!!
The violence and destruction perpetrated by followers of a "very peaceful religion" are there for all to see right in our times and as chronicled in history. The tolerance of Christians, Buddhists, Hindus etc towards these "believers of a very peaceful religion" are exploited gradually and like a slowly growing benign tumor turning malignant after it reaches a critical size, these people take our kindness for our weakness and finally have their way. People who believe that the fear and anger against this particular uncivilized demonstration in Milan is unjustified and it amounts to "paranoia", are indulging in wishful thinking. It goes a long way to prove that in spite of such obvious disturbing acts there are people amidst us who are brainwashed into thinking it is harmless and excuse it. Acts such as these are symptomatic of a growing problem which all reasonable people must realize as such, and the disorder called "Isalm" which is at the root of most of the violence in the world should be stopped. Or else the days of "Eurabia" are not far.
jeff in chicago: How much do you know about Islam? Are you aware that no non-Muslim can go to Mecca or Medina upon pain of death? Could you imagine the Pope or the Dhali Lama or any religious leader of any faith but Islam threatening death for visiting some holy place or city related to their religion? Do you comprehend that Islam is the only religion that calls for war to be made upon the unbeliever? Are you aware that in Islamic religious law (Sharia) a Muslim is to be killed for leaving Islam for another faith? Are you at all knowledgeable that in Islamic religious law non-believers are considered the equivalent of human waste? What about the distinction between the dar-al-harb and the dar-al-Islam? As for religious fanatics, since 9/11 well over 12,000 terrorist acts have been committed by Muslims. How many by Christians or Buddhists or Jews?
And take a look at the founder of Islam who ordered thousands upon thousands of deaths (we know this from the Muslim sources which brag about it). How many deaths did Jesus or Buddha or Zoroaster or Confucius order? Mohammed when in his fifites has sexual intercourse with a nine-year old girl (again we know this from Muslims who thought it a good thing). Nothing of this sort even remotely is attributed to any other founder of a major faith.
Islam is a religion like no other. You know this or should it. Edward Gibbon knew it. So did David Hume. Ditto for Thomas Jefferson, John Quincy Adams, Alexis de Tocqueville, Ernest Renan, Bertrand Russell and Winston Churchill. Hopefully you're not naive enough to draw a rough moral equivalency between Islam on the one hand and any other major religion on the other. I fear you are.
jeff... "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" means behave toward them as you would WANT them to behave toward you. It does not mean that you can demand they do so.
You should be on a Islamic web site telling that to Mohammadans...They never heard of such a thing, and you could enlighten them...Otherwise, regular posters here are very aware of the Golden Rule and lack of it in Islam...
Jeff...darn it, I'm starting to think you are a troll, just when I was starting to like you.
But feeding trolls is pointless, so if you can't come up with something jihad/Islam worthy soon, no lunch will be served...
I have a policy of not talking to people who haven't read most of the Qur'an, some of the ahadith and are also acquainted with the 'highlights' of Mohammad's life. It's just too tiring to engage the ignorant. Without knowing how violent and wicked Mohammad was (according to Islamic sources) it's crazy for people to defend Islam. But they do, they do....
I should refine my last post: People who 'tell' me anything about Islam without having the Islam 101 knowledge, I mean. Of course, I engage with people who know nothing and have some humility about this and admit it. I don't know how many people have 'told' me that the Bible is as violent as the QUr'an --without having read anything of the first tome and very little of the latter... Any infidel who reads the basic texts is shocked and revolted.
@ala-sux:
Wow. I barely know where to start...
"...islam wants to purge all non-Muslims from earth because we are all enemies of islam according to Muhammad and the Quran."
I believe that the Islamic world is at a place of cultural development equivalent to where the Christian world was during the Middle Ages. At that point in time, the Christian world also believe that all those who did not believe as they did should be purged. They tried hard to make that happen. The world survived that era. I believe we will survive this era.
I won't argue population statistics with you. You make valid points, and it's very hard for laymen like us to find accurate figures.
"...and yet Israel is seen as the demon for being a nation with a faith-based Governance."
I think there is criticism of Israel for many reasons, but that is not what we are talking about.
"How ironic that you have to come to a non-Muslim nation to express your anger and disdain for me being allowed to have an opinion."
Dude. I'm a fifth-generation American of Irish descent. I have expressed no anger or disdain. I criticized your screen name, but that is all.
"I respect your right to attack me in words and false claims that try to provoke me to anger so you have more fuel to enjoy your Pity-party to blame everyone esle for your short comings."
I think you got angry all on your own.
"I won't lets you transfer your hate and bitterness to me because that's exactly how evil works , you have no real life victories , nor do I think you have ever contributed to Humanity for a better world."
This unprovoked vitriol only convinces me that you cannot think rationally on this topic.
"It's obvious that you want me to reveal information about myself and I'm not that stupid to fall for a troll that uses Muslim baiting to prompt a negative response and then play the victim."
Wait...what? Obvious that I want to what?
"I am over weight , so go ahead and do the shollyard bully tactic and stick out your tongue and say....."Oh yeah, yeah.....wellll...you're fat and have a ugly coat".
So...you pre-emptively reveal information to bait me into insulting you? Well, I'm packing on the pounds too and I dress like a slob. But again, we've gone off-topic.
Karol Wojtyla and Joseph Ratzinger have worshipped with Muslims as they prayed toward Mecca in several Mosques including the Blue Mosque in Istanbul, Turkey.
Upon Yasser Arafat's third visit to the Vatican and her dwellers, Karol Wojtyla kissed and blessed the vile, savage Koran.
Karol Wojtyla, Joseph Ratzinger and their Vatican dwellers confer and confirm respect to a religion of hate and their pre-Islam, Babylonian, pagan, moon god "Allah."
Wojtyla and Ratzinger worshipped the same "Allah" that (according to Mohammad)says "God has no Son."
Wojtyla and Ratzinger 'confirm' the same religion of hate that inspired the Arabic inscription on the Dome of the Rock that reads, "God has no Son."
ROMAN Catholicism is not Christian. It is a cult that practices necromancy, idol worship, priest craft and, has an apostate head that presents himself as the ONLY ONE who can speak for Christ. Of course, this is a complete and utter lie.
The true church can be summed by what Christ said when He said, "I know my sheep. My sheep know me."
Biblical Christians are not influenced or affected by ROMAN Catholicism, Islam or, any other 'people of faith' platform that opposes the work and will of the Living God whose Son is the ONLY propitiation for sins and is the ONLY one who can save any of us.
Karol Wojtyla and Joseph Ratzinger have worshipped with Muslims as they prayed toward Mecca in several Mosques including the Blue Mosque in Istanbul, Turkey.
Upon Yasser Arafat's third visit to the Vatican and her dwellers, Karol Wojtyla kissed and blessed the vile, savage Koran.
Karol Wojtyla, Joseph Ratzinger and their Vatican dwellers confer and confirm respect to a religion of hate and their pre-Islam, Babylonian, pagan, moon god "Allah."
Wojtyla and Ratzinger worshipped the same "Allah" that (according to Mohammad)says "God has no Son."
Wojtyla and Ratzinger 'confirm' the same religion of hate that inspired the Arabic inscription on the Dome of the Rock that reads, "God has no Son."
ROMAN Catholicism is not Christian. It is a cult that practices necromancy, idol worship, priest craft and, has an apostate head that presents himself as the ONLY ONE who can speak for Christ. Of course, this is a complete and utter lie.
The true church can be summed by what Christ said when He said, "I know my sheep. My sheep know me."
Biblical Christians are not influenced or affected by ROMAN Catholicism, Islam or, any other 'people of faith' platform that opposes the work and will of the Living God whose Son is the ONLY propitiation for sins and is the ONLY one who can save any of us.
Karol Wojtyla and Joseph Ratzinger have worshipped with Muslims as they prayed toward Mecca in several Mosques including the Blue Mosque in Istanbul, Turkey.
Upon Yasser Arafat's third visit to the Vatican and her dwellers, Karol Wojtyla kissed and blessed the vile, savage Koran.
Karol Wojtyla, Joseph Ratzinger and their Vatican dwellers confer and confirm respect to a religion of hate and their pre-Islam, Babylonian, pagan, moon god "Allah."
Wojtyla and Ratzinger worshipped the same "Allah" that (according to Mohammad)says "God has no Son."
Wojtyla and Ratzinger 'confirm' the same religion of hate that inspired the Arabic inscription on the Dome of the Rock that reads, "God has no Son."
ROMAN Catholicism is not Christian. It is a cult that practices necromancy, idol worship, priest craft and, has an apostate head that presents himself as the ONLY ONE who can speak for Christ. Of course, this is a complete and utter lie.
The true church can be summed by what Christ said when He said, "I know my sheep. My sheep know me."
Biblical Christians are not influenced or affected by ROMAN Catholicism, Islam or, any other 'people of faith' platform that opposes the work and will of the Living God whose Son is the ONLY propitiation for sins and is the ONLY one who can save any of us.
Karol Wojtyla and Joseph Ratzinger have worshipped with Muslims as they prayed toward Mecca in several Mosques including the Blue Mosque in Istanbul, Turkey.
Upon Yasser Arafat's third visit to the Vatican and her dwellers, Karol Wojtyla kissed and blessed the vile, savage Koran.
Karol Wojtyla, Joseph Ratzinger and their Vatican dwellers confer and confirm respect to a religion of hate and their pre-Islam, Babylonian, pagan, moon god "Allah."
Wojtyla and Ratzinger worshipped the same "Allah" that (according to Mohammad)says "God has no Son."
Wojtyla and Ratzinger 'confirm' the same religion of hate that inspired the Arabic inscription on the Dome of the Rock that reads, "God has no Son."
ROMAN Catholicism is not Christian. It is a cult that practices necromancy, idol worship, priest craft and, has an apostate head that presents himself as the ONLY ONE who can speak for Christ. Of course, this is a complete and utter lie.
The true church can be summed by what Christ said when He said, "I know my sheep. My sheep know me."
Biblical Christians are not influenced or affected by ROMAN Catholicism, Islam or, any other 'people of faith' platform that opposes the work and will of the Living God whose Son is the ONLY propitiation for sins and is the ONLY one who can save any of us.
Jeff...What in the world is all that???
Is this a new form of jihad?
Is this site under attack?
From Jeff.. Well, I'm packing on the pounds too and I dress like a slob...
Why this need to confess?
Is Jihadwatch now a confessional?
This is getting weird...
Do we really care about Jeffs fat?
DumbledoresArmy, I love your church bell idea too. Here is an impromptu Interlude: Phil Och's arangement of EA Poe's 'The Bells'.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCSVk6FtHGw
jeff in chicago: I have detected yet another error in your thinking. It's this: You seem oblivious of the fact that when Christians used force in the name of their faith centuries ago they were violating the tenets of their religion. When Muslims use force in the name of their creed, however, they are invariably fulfilling a major element in their belief system. The difference could not be greater and that is why Islam will never evolve to a more tolerant stage. Ibn Warraq's well known assessment sums it up beautifully-----there are moderate Muslims but there is no moderate Islam.
Every religion has a theological blueprint. Islam's blueprint is deeply troubling for sundry reasons. Nothing in any other faith's theological plan is even vaguely as menacing as what Islam contains in its. Once again, you know this or should know it. Yes, any religion can produce the occasional fanatic, even a violent one, but Islam produces them in droves. I mean huge numbers. Always has. Always will. Your optimism that Islam will change is founded on the erroneous assumption that Islam in theory is innocuous. It is most definitely not. To finish the blueprint metaphor, I would close by saying that while one can build a bad house from a good blueprint, one can never build a good house from a bad one. Reconsider.
@duh_swami: Dang! This site just ate my last long post. Don't abandon me. You seem like one of the sane ones here! :)
That previous one with all the bold was just a response with quotes to "ala sux" - one of the non-sane, it seems so far.
It's getting late. I'll post more tomorrow.
Bells during the Muzzy prayers is a great idea. When I was a kid (in Protestant Topeka, Kansas no less) the Angelus bells rang in the main Catholic church 3 times a day- lound and long. I don't know if they still do it there or anywhere any more. Certainly not in the Bay area. It would be a great symbol of Western Christianity to bring back everywhere in Europe as well as the USA, especially in churches near Mosques that the Muzzys could hear them loud and clear. No reason why Protestants could not join in with their own.
Moreover, it might help no-gos and agnostics everywhere in the West to recall their Cristian roots and maybe become a little more aggressive in defending Western Civilization against the Muzzy invasion.
@wellington: This will be brief. I have to get some sleep!
I'm not sure I completely buy your assessment of Christianity v. Islam. It seems to me that if you believe Exodus 20:3 “Thou shalt have no other gods before me,” then you have to believe Deuteronomy 13:6-10, “If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is of thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. Thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the Lord thy God."
If you believe Exodus 20:12 “Honour thy father and thy mother,” then you have to believe Exodus 21:17 “And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.”
The Old Testament doesn't seem to be focused on as much these days, but in the Middle Ages, it sure was. I'm just saying that if Christianity could enlighten, maybe Islam can, too. As much as you doubt my optimism, I despair your pessimism.
More tomorrow...
@duh_swami: Dang! This site just ate my last long post. Don't abandon me. You seem like one of the sane ones here! :)
Boy are you deluded... :)...You should stick around JW and catch up on Islam, your point of view will change a lot with more knowledge.
This has happened to nearly all kufrs who post here...You really should read the Quran, but I warn you it is one of the most boring things you will ever read...Ahadith is also long and sometimes boring, but you get to know Mohammad that way...All this stuff is free on line as well as books (By Spenser) and other anti-jihad sites...
MMMust be getting late...Books by Spencer are not free on line and I misspelled his name...again...sorry...
Indonesia is the most populous muslim country in the world, followed by Malaysia, not Pakistan.
Look it up, and not in Wiki, either.
Indonesia's the most populous Muslim state in the world and there are 1.2 billion Muslims. Stop getting your info from Wickedpedia, idiot.
Do not, for even a nanosecond, entertain the ridiculous notion that the diversion of this "pro-Palestinian" march ending in front of an important Roman Catholic church was in any way, shape or form spontaneous or unplanned. It was so obviously and blatantly a test and a provocation.
I'm not Catholic, not even Christian or Jew, however I firmly maintain that a bunch of Muslims holding a public march and prayer session in front of an historical cathedral anywhere in Europe or the Americas nothing less than OUTRAGEOUS ISLAMIST AFFRONTERY, A GRAVE INSULT TO MY CULTURE AND DEEPLY OFFENSIVE TO MY RELIGION (just like everything else vaguely Muslim). I DEMAND AN APOLOGY FROM ISLAM.
I wonder if this will wake up a few Italians.
You beat me before I hit refresh, CGW! Jeff, check out the Islam 101 link at the top of the homepage.
Also, the reason why the entire Muslim world is a hellhole is not because they are somehow behind. Egypt, Turkey, much of Eastern Europe were once Rome. They had as much of a head start as the rest of Western civilization, so the development argument is moot.
Muslims believe that the earth is flat and that 6 and 8 are the same number, just for starters. There is no legitimate education available anywhere in the Muslim world, nor can there ever be under Sharia because one cannot teach things which run contrary to the insane claims made in Islamic dogma. Women live their lives in a perpetual state of sex slavery and are usually beaten for trying to be more that an undead corpse/baby factory/rape victim. They usually don't work, which again causes societal backwardness. In many places they can't go to school at all.
Muslims emulate in word, deed, and thought a man who never did a single day of hard work in his life and survived as a parasite all of his days. He used people and plundered for survival. Islam also completely stunts development, moral, intellectual, ethical, and spiritual. This is why the Muslim world sucks. Don't you ever wonder why Muslims are so ready to take to the streets to protest and riot? They don't have jobs because they don't believe in work!
Finally, Jeff, the Exodus verse must be taken in context (unlike the Koran, which is devoid of context and essentially in a random order). The tribe of Jews was wandering around in the desert, watching their backs. Worshipping another god was tantamount to treason. Plus, people should just be killed for being gullible. Just kidding. Do Jews kill other Jews who convert to Christianity? No. Not only would it never occur to us to do that, or to even consider that verse, but we're just not barbarians. The 10 Commandments trump all. It's the Golden Rule that matters. Jews don't sacrifice animals or stone adulterers either, but Muslims do and their "faith" isn't 4000 years old.
Islam is not a religion because it is completely lacking in theology and morality. Completely. Don't compare it to legitimate religions. They're not founded and predicated on endless human rights violations, e.g., slavery is very much part of Islamic law, whereas legitimate religions (Christianity and Judaism) don't allow it and abolition is foundation to both. Islam keeps all women, little girls, and female babies in a constant state of sex slavery. Oh, and their fathers and brothers are allowed to rape them from the time they're one day old.
Defending Islam is a one-way ticket to wrong-ville, dude, especially when you drag two faiths which are (a) legitimate and (b) the basis of Western civilization down just to make a baseless point.
You better come back to this thread and read this or I'll be annoyed, Jeff in Chicago.
I'm just saying that if Christianity could enlighten, maybe Islam can, too. As much as you doubt my optimism, I despair your pessimism.
More tomorrow...
Posted by: jeff in chicago at January 10, 2009 2:39 AM
LMAO!!!!!! That makes two of us, I doubt your optimism too. Islam enlighten? BWAAAAAAA!@!!!! Lord, no.
Jeff in Chicago: Christianity did not enlighten in the Middle Ages, but it enlighten when Jesus appear with the New Testament. There's no calling for violence against non-beleivers in the NT, no calling for violence against sinners either. Let's take the story of the woman who commited adultery and what Jesus' response was to her and to those who wanted to stone her. And then let's take a story from the Hadith in which Muhammad faced a similar situation:
"Imran b. Husain (in his Hadith, Islamic tradition) reported that a woman from Juhaina came to Muhammad and she had become pregnant because of adultery. She said: I am pregnant as a result of Zina. Muhammad said: “Go back, and come to me after the birth of the child”. After giving birth, the woman came back to Muhammad, saying: “please purify me now”. Next, Muhammad said, “Go and suckle your child, and come after the period of suckling is over.” She came after the period of weaning and brought a piece of bread with her. She fed the child the piece of bread and said, “Oh Allah’s Apostle, the child has been weaned.” At that Muhammad pronounced judgment about her and she was stoned to death."
If only the Quran had a New Testament, but unfortunately it does not...
Honestly, if this escapade in front of the Milan Cathedral isn't a clear shot across the bow I do not know what is. Can you possibly imagine anything more stupid than provoking Italian nationalism like this? I'm sure every Italian is going to remember the significance of this for a very long time. There is no possible way that the Italians are going to take this laying down. These Muslims are fools. I will not feel the least bit sad when the ignorant mongrels reap what they sew...
"Let's have a barbecue in front of a mosque (with beer or wine)
Posted by: Jerry M "
Cook it slow all day and have a Pig Pull!
Anyways check out this Apostate! I think she could be Apostate of the year, this would have to be an unpublished award though.
http://www.youtube.com/user/zomby0085
Oh, and to ala-sux (Nice screen name, by the way. And you're complaining about Muslims defaming YOUR religion???) ... you wrote:
****************************************************
Someone please read my post and tell me where I wanted to defend my right to spread my faith in public or mention of any personal tenets for any faith.
If I'm wrong then Fine, but my concern is for the Near 85% of Humans on Earth that must live under the psychological terrorism to fear offending a group of people that are know to be predisposed to violence and SJD (sudden Jihad Syndrome) by being set-off from hurt feelings.
In my area last week there were Citizens having death Threats hurled at them by a mob of Pro-Hamas supporters were being held back by Police, the Police then told the innocent civilain Citizens to leave the area because they couldn't assure their safety from the mob.
The video evidence by the Media confirms that the Police knew the mob was prone to violence to solve their problems or react to hurt feelings.
Is there any more of a telling sign that some people are formed into violent thugs after exposed to a religious book that still promotes hatred and dominance over those not like them.
jeff in chicago,
Islam hasn't enlightened in the last 1400 years, it won't in the next 30, keep it simple, no need to over complicate it.
Along with the bbq'd pork chops, beer and wine flowing, how bout some greased pigs and street cartoonists drawing "you know who"?
I wonder why the bombs haven't gone off in Italy yet.
As for the 'Islam is just like Christianity in the middle ages' broken record I say this:
Islam is not just "stuck in the middle ages", it is unchangeable.
Islam is a 7th century blood-cult that murders hundreds, if not thousands every day, and it will drag all of us back into 7th century barbarism. How do you change a socio-political, totalitarian belief-system in the guise of religion that rejects any criticism, kills dissenters and apostates and refuses to consider change?
And even this overt act of aggression will pass unnoticed. I've seen nothing of it in any of the MSM.
Could the warning be any clearer? Is there any other way to interpret this act other than as one of aggression?
The shit is clearly gonna hit the fan soon.
Islam is a lie and truth is killing it.
Hey, why not pour it on and have a tasty meal at the same time while quaffing one's thirst with plenty of beer? Anything that can irritate the Muslim more, I'm all for.
Wellington
Absolutely right, Wellington. More should be made of the Islamic ban on beer (and other alcoholic beverages). That might wake more people up to the "real and perceived" threat of Islam.
Atlas has a picture of the event:
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/.shared/image.html?/photos/uncategorized/2009/01/03/milan.jpg
I wonder if I were to have a mind and spirit changing experience, say, while on the toilet, and then write a book called "The Book of Zoot", around which I would based a religion called "Zootismianity", and in doing so, were I to take the creation story from and also the Abraham / Isaac story the the Torah (Old Testament) and re-tread both of those stories over 27 times and convolute them until you can barely recognize them and then write lot's of stuff like "respect all others but kill infidels and wage inner-warfare to cleanse yourselves" and maybe include a prohibition against Kangaroos, claiming them to be unclean, and of course put women in their place (at the back of the bus or something like that), I wonder if the press would hail my religion as one of the 4 great monotheistic religions of the world, since we all serve the same God? Perhaps CNN could do a big reportage on the zooting of the world as we have never seen before?
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....better go fire up my word processing programm and zootify some.
Anyone want to zoot along with me? Get in on the ground floor of the one true religion and kill some bad, bad, bad infidels all at once? Wow, what an opportunity.
------------------------------
Translation: for those dhimmis who don't get the point - it is really simple: claiming to serve the same God doesn't mean that is is really so.
jeff in chicago
First my apologies to regular posters who have read all this before. While I could add enough new examples to fill a book I do not have time.
Jeff
You think your piece of turf is representative of the whole world but in Britain “our” muslims - - who, to quote a Pakistani writer, are almost all “illiterate farmers” - are a different matter.
In Britain at local and national level the censorship is ferocious and JW is one of the few sources of information. Local papers publishing anything that challenges “Our rich diverse multicultural society” are threatened with boycotts that would shut them down. Nationally respected journalists who question the concept are warned off by being denounced in Parliament as quote; “Semi-fascist”
You have to live in or near a muslim enclave to see what is going on. I lived within 2 miles of a muslim area for 20 years and saw nothing until my job took me INTO an area that was 98% muslim. Even so my brother lives in a 99% British suburb is a fully paid up liberal becomes very angry at any suggestion that muslim bombers are not “A tiny minority of extremists”. He shouts that the whole anti muslim thing is just the old neo Nazi’s tactic of demonising harmless hard working people.
Now consider the following items and remember these are not cases of “A friend said” or “Someone I know told me”. These are mostly first hand encounters or can be checked on the web,
1. My middle aged neighbours who after an argument with students from an Islamic school had the students descend on them one night and smash every window in their house. Note at the time this was a 99.9% white area and the whole affair was hushed up with community relations paying for the damage.
2. My colleague who arrived in work in an agitated state because his wife came home hysterical from Saturday shopping after being caught up in a muslim “anti-racist” riot. This was not reported in the local let alone national press. This was his second encounter with Islamic enrichment, a relative having beaten up for being white a year before. We were dishing out 7 different handouts to enrich the lives of a 98% muslim area at the time. The fact that entire families lived in Pakistan for a good part of each year on British Social Security not withstanding.
3. The man with years of satisfactory work who was fired because a muslim “colleague” overheard him say to a newcomer “You do not want to get a house there, there’s trouble between the blacks and the Paki’s”. He was fired because of the companies zero tolerance with racism policy just for saying “Paki” without any abusive words in prefix or suffix. While Pakistanis may call themselves “Paks” for anyone else to say “Paki” in Britain is at least a sacking offence.
4. The last white woman in her street 80 years old, who had her windows smashed 3 times to shouts of “F*** off out of our street you white bitch and sell us your house!” A Polish refugee she had been a forced labourer in Nazi Germany -“Germans baddest people in the world” she said to me tugging her forelock “In Germany I must do this all time to Germans now I must do it all time to Pakistani. What the difference?” She did of course report these attacks to the police but as she told me, “Police say they can do nothing, too many Pakistani.”
5. The quiet middle-aged people, white and black, being harassed out of their homes because “our Asian citizens” wanted them for their families. Note the “White trash and hard men” they left alone.
6. The muslim who spoke so little English that he submitted his calculations for his profits from a petrol station franchise as proof he was unemployed and had no income. They were so terrified of being accused of racism they just sent it back and asked for the correct form.
7. The three teenagers taken into a muslim area by a taxi driver – probably to extort money – who were “hunted like frightened animals”. One escaped, one to their credit was sheltered by a muslim family but the third was left unconscious in the street for 20 minutes before an ambulance came and incidentally he was robbed while he lay dying. His name was Gavin Hopley, you will have to hunt around the web for a posting by his Aunt for the details. No British paper ever printed the full story and while a muslim was charged nobody was ever convicted.
8. The police chief who following demands from the “muslim community” was “retired” for publicly saying “Whites are being beaten so badly and so frequently it is only a matter of time before one of them is killed” It was – see note 7.
9. Paying an “unemployed and deprived” muslim £20,000 to improve the safe house he was using to bring in illegal immigrants and making a good living from it. Passed without comment because they were terrified of being accused of racism. By contrast a white man who was renting a single room was immediately disqualified because he was considered to be running a business.
If that is not enough 5 years ago my late wife was standing quietly in a superstore while I was speaking to a salesman when she called out “You naughty boy! Fred! This boy has just punched me!” I turned to see 6 year old Pakistani boy who appeared to speak no English being dragged away by his 9 year old brother. He had just hit her in the stomach which was about as high as he could reach. We were too shocked and embarrassed to say or do anything because our children would never do anything like that.
Got that? Their small kids are walking up to middle aged women and punching them!
This is how they behave as a deprived minority in the Europe, but what of the future? An Algerian President, Saudi Mullahs and Colonel Qaddafi have publicly all said muslims will be able to take over Europe by sheer numbers. To quote the Algerian - you should be able to find it on the web - "Our strongest weapon is the wombs of our women"
"Your paranoia scares me much more than the actions described in this story."
PARANOIA! There is a saying - If it walks like a duck, if it quacks like a duck, if it swims like a duck - its a duck!
Signed
Fred - A knuckle dragging punum*! A pure-unadulterated- knuckle-dragging-shining-example-of-a-bigot at his best.*
· Title awarded by Abdulla Mikail true son of prophet mohammed, Dec 2008.
· Punum – Hebrew word "pretty or cute little dog".
ThePerpetualMalcontent
Good link. I can see why it has not been seen on the European MSM if ever the was a calculated political act this is one.
Signed
Fred - A knuckle dragging punum! A pure-unadulterated- knuckle-dragging-shining-example-of-a-bigot at his best.
Here at this site are numerous examples to add to Fred's list of first hand accounts. One in particular haunts me to this day . . .
Dearly departed, Dominic aka necessitasnonhabetlegem posted the following personal experience, just weeks before his untimely passing:
Fred, Excellent first hand account in the UK. Thank you for that. It sounds like the UK Media has crossed the line into absurdity by not reporting the news. Apparently they have completely bought into the Multi-cultural phylosophy and refuse to see reality. I am so sorry to hear this. Add this to political corruption, (you can be sure that Arab money goes in that direction), and you have a recipe for disaster.
Worse still, our country is heading down the same path. We are years behind you but the trend is definite.
Winston Churchill had Islam correctly defined as did some of our leaders in those days. Churchill considered Islam to be vile but he said it in the most descriptive words in the English language. We need another Churchill.
Can you imagine what Oriana Fallaci would have to say? I'll bet many Italians are remembering her Cassandra-like RAGE and at last understanding it.
Posted by: poetcomic1 at January 9, 2009 9:02 PM
Let's hope so, for their sake. Dang, I wish she was here! Can you imagine her reaction to the Islamo-Nazis parading around right now? Oh, in Milan...! Disgusting. How horrible! Who let those degenerate barbarians IN?
jeff in chicago - you don't know anything about Islam. It never "enlightens," it only oppresses. Why don't you take a gander at the Qur'an today?
"While trying not to stoke the controversy, the Catholic Church was deeply uneasy with the mass prayer outside the Duomo..."
The entire congregation should have, after Mass, surrounded the "demonstrators" and ridiculed and laughed at them. It would have been instant defeat, for the Muslims.
jdamn, thanks for the link.
The info in that article does not quite say that Italy does not recognize Islam as a religion; it's more like a technicality. According to the article, as soon as the unorganized Italian Muslims can produce a representative of all Italian Muslims to sign the "intesa" agreement with the government, they will be recognized as a religion. I.e., there's nothing stopping Islam from becoming a recognized religion in Italy except a technicality.
This is hardly the same concept I was hoping for -- i.e., a denial of essential recognition based on the principle that Islam is not a religion no matter what it does.
jeff in chicago:
Your rational and moderate views are appreciated, but I wonder why Muslims are unable to co-exist with their neighbors all over the world. I mean, everyone in the world cannot be 'part of the conspiracy against Muslims'.
In Bangalore, there are Muslim Ghettos, which are completely off bounds to the rest of the city. The Bangalore Police is scared to enter those Ghettos. The Ghettos are like small, miniature, self-sufficient towns within the City. This is the case in cities all over India, and I believe it is catching on in Europe too.
Fred, there's also the case of Kriss Donald, 15-year-old white teenager kidnapped tortured and murdered by Muslims in Scotland in 2004 I think.
I'd like jeff to show me one Muslim who has been tortured and/or murdered by Islamophobes anywhere in the West in the last several years. We can show him numerous examples the other way around.
Jeff does not yet realize, though I think he is catching on, that this site JW is dedicated to the subject of jihad and Islam.
This is not a yahoo chatroom it is an academic site...Learning go's on here. Jeff admits he knows little of Islam, and it shows. You have to know 'something' about Islam, even to defend it...
Jeff should take my advice, as given above...
Then his comments will be relevant and on topic.
As long as he stays ignorant about Islam, all his comments will be off topic...
jeff in chicago: Perhaps you'll read this today. Look, I think you're trying to be sincere and also trying to get at the truth with as much objectivity as you can muster up (a problem for any fair-minded person). So, I suggest you read more about Islam. Read the Koran, some of the Hadith and Sira. By all means read at least a few of Robert Spencer's works. Ibn Warraq's too. Take a look at what Brigitte Gabriel has said and written. Pay particular attention here at JW to what "Hugh" posts. Listen to what former Muslims like Hirsi Ali and Wafa Sultan have to say about Islam (Ibn Warraq is also in this category). And, yes, listen to Muslims defending their faith. Then draw your own conclusions.
You wrote above that you found me too pessimistic about Islam. Well, would you have said the same thing if I had written that Marxism or fascism can never reform? What if I'm right about Islam? What then? Where is it written that just because something is a religion it must be good or at least innocuous? Wishing something so won't make it so. Perhaps you're too optimistic about Islam. Think about it. You certainly don't seem to have that much knowledge of it. For instance, I gather from your statements that you think there is no real differnce between the Old Testament and the Koran respecting the ability to evolve from behavior outlined in these texts. But what you don't seem to understand is that the Old Testament was not meant to be a paradigm for action for all time. The Koran was. And remember that there are many significant indidividuals, some of whom I cited above, who came to the same conclusion about Isalm that most who post here at JW have and that is that Islam is rotten to the core and very, very different from Chistianity or any other major faith. Keep an open mind and go from there, gaining knowledge and pursuing the truth with as much ruthless objectivity as you can summon up in yourself, all the while being prepared to have your theories and hypotheses overturned when you come across evidence that contradicts them It's always one's best shot at getting at the truth, elusive as that may be many times. Go for it.
Good morning. I have returned! (Seems there was some doubt I would.) Being as I seem to be the only person on my side of this discussion, I probably won't be able to address every comment. I do have a life after all. I wrote something off line that I will paste in below. It's not my best prose, but blogs aren't my favorite forum. I will post separately to answer some questions/comments directed to me. Here's the piece...
-------------------------
Our planet has not evolved in a linear fashion. Neither the rock that we live on nor the people who inhabit that rock. There are places in the world where people still live in what could only be described as a prehistoric manner. There are places where people still live in thatched huts, dress in loin clothes and subsist on food that they have to kill themselves with spears. There are also places where people live in solar-heated, completely modern homes, prepare their food in a microwave, stay in instant contact with friends and family through e-mail and are entertained by flat-screen TVs and Wii games. Somewhere on earth there are people living in virtually every gradient of the curve between those two extremes.
From a cultural standpoint, I believe, much of the Middle East is closer to the prehistoric end of that curve than the modern end. Until the discovery of easily accessible oil reserves there (early 1900s), the people still lived a mostly nomadic existence with no electricity, no modern plumbing, no modern infrastructure. Culturally, they were eons behind the people from the “enlightened” West who had suddenly shown up to exploit their oil. So they have had a mere 100 years to get from nearly prehistoric to Western 1900.
But we somehow expect these people to instantly adapt to our standards. It’s a ridiculous supposition. It’s also the second time this folly has been attempted. Pulling African populations – another group living in near-prehistoric conditions – out of their culture and dropping them into ours didn’t work out so well, either.
From a religion standpoint, Islam is 600 years younger than Christianity. Considering Christianity is merely 2,000 years old, that’s a significant difference. Consider where the “enlightened” West was 600 years ago. The nations of Europe were invading each other, as conquering and land-grabbing were the rules of the day. Slaughtering the population of the country next door was the norm. This may have not been proscribed by religion, but these actions were carried out in “the name of God.” Just 500 years ago, with the West’s discovery of the “New World,” the West started a new slaughter of the indigenous population of North America. Just 400 years ago the U.S. begins wholesale abduction of African populations to serve as our slaves, a practice that lasted until just 150 years ago. Just how much more civilized were we?
The major problem as I see it, and I agree that it is a huge problem, is, frankly, the means available to today’s fanatic Muslim. Had today’s weaponry been available during the Middle Ages, Armageddon would have occurred. The good news – at least to me – is that modern communication and the general good of most of the planet will become clear. Considering that – again, at least to me – the vast majority of the Muslim world is more moderate than espoused on this site, I see that happening. (There’s that wacky optimism of mine again!!) No, this is not an easy problem to solve, but I have hope.
@CGW
You said: "Indonesia is the most populous muslim country in the world, followed by Malaysia, not Pakistan."
I was indeed wrong about Pakistan. I even mis-read the statistics I was looking at. But you are wrong about Malaysia. While Indonesia IS the most populous Muslim country, even if every person in Malaysia was Muslim, they wouldn't overtake the 144 million Muslims in India.
But again, I'm not hear to discuss populations. I'm am distressed about the opinions expressed here that every single Muslim person is a radical murdering lunatic. They are not. Not even most of them.
DenverRodeo, the article does, in fact, say that Islam is not recognized as a religion in Italy. That was the part which I copied and put in boldface. It also states that in order to be recognized they must, among other requirements, agree to conduct all services in Italian and recognize Israel. Islam will never be a religion in Italy.
@Suzy:
You said: "There's no calling for violence against non-beleivers in the NT, no calling for violence against sinners either."
Wrong. In Luke 19:27 Jesus himself says: "But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them — bring them here and kill them in front of me."
Wrong. In Luke 19:27 Jesus himself says: "But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them — bring them here and kill them in front of me."
and you are a dishonest mug , Jesus is talking in parable , the parable of the minas in which a King says : "But those enemies of mine etc ...
jeff in Chicago:
No one believes that every single Muslim is a 'radical murdering lunatic'.
Not every Afghani is a 'murdering lunatic', neither is every Pakistani. Most of them are 'peace loving' people. But then, the majority of Germans in the 1930s were peace loving too. So were the majority of Soviets in Stalinist times. And so were most Chinese in Mao's time..
India has 1.2 billion people, out of which 144 million are Muslims. If the total population of India had been, lets say, 180 million, do you think the community leaders of those 144 million Muslims would have allowed the existence of other religions, democracy, free speech, independent judiciary, free media, etc. etc. etc.?
dsinc made a coment: "I'm hoping not all "non-Muslims" are as wacked-out and paranoid as you seem to be.... And I'm quite sure that "non-Muslim" does NOT equal "pro-Christian."
Hopefully, we'd see signs that non-"non-Muslims", weren't so whacked out as the people he sees to appreciate in life.
Certainly to orchestrate such a prayer performance was not the effort of a benign neihbor. May such an agent, upon turning his head, find his throat has been cut.
@Bangalorean:
You said: "...I wonder why Muslims are unable to co-exist with their neighbors all over the world."
You mean sorta like Jews and Palestinians? Or, for a very long time, Catholics and Protestants in Ireland? Or like many blacks and whites today in the U.S.? Again, you paint with too broad a brush. Not all Muslims behave this way. My beef with many postings here, again, is complete sterotyping of an entire population.
Oh, and it also states that its practices must be deemed moral. Islam has not a single moral practice or teaching to its credit. Islam will never be a religion in Italy. Islamic dualism guarantees it. It would literally have to not be Islam in order to be recognized. The Koran and the Hadith are Islam's main obstacles to its acceptance as a religion in Italy, not the council. They government is just biding their time and jerking them around and thoe Muslim idiots are falling for it. They won't even accept Muslims as citizens, let alone Islam as a religion. Those 10,000 Muslim citizens are clearly Italian converts. The article doesn't state that as far as I noticed, but simple common sense and arithemtic pretty much demonstrate that.
Jeff a lot of what you posted is standard history stuff, and some of your statewments on that are a little weak...I don't want to take the time to pick thew whole thing apart...someone might do that, but here is an easy one...
Jeff...behind the people from the “enlightened” West who had suddenly shown up to exploit their oil.
Oil was discovered, developed, maintained and 'purchased' by the west...There is no way this an exploitation...Ask the Saudi royalty if they have been 'exploited'...If anyone is exploiting anyone, it's the rich Mohammadan rulers who come by all this cash, keep most all of it for themselves.
And/or fund terrorism and the spread of Wahhabism.
There are something like 30,000 princes and princes in the Saudi royal family and they are all living in opulence from that 'exploitation'.
I wish someone would exploit me like that...
Karol Wojtyla and Joseph Ratzinger have worshipped with Muslims as they prayed toward Mecca in several Mosques including the Blue Mosque in Istanbul, Turkey.
You mean Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict the XVI. Its unfortunate that using thier names in this manner and context was meant to be an insult. Of course you couldn't just make your point, but you also wanted to insult any Catholic reading this.
Getting back to your point, this is not true, but its a good way to confuse people...
Karol Wojtyla, Joseph Ratzinger and their Vatican dwellers confer and confirm respect to a religion of hate and their pre-Islam, Babylonian, pagan, moon god "Allah."
See Father Zakaria regarding this: http://www.fatherzakaria.net/
In his own words: he loves Muslims but hates Islam.
Many nominal Muslims are converting to Christianity by the thousands. They will do this when you show them and their beliefs respect (not agree) but be firm in explaining the Truth of Christianity. See the many writings of Pope Benedict and his Easter baptism.
I guess the other option is to take the insulting tone of your post. It won't bring any Muslims (or for that matter Catholics) to your faith but it will piss them off, which I am sure is your intent. Hardly a way to bring converts to the faith....
ROMAN Catholicism is not Christian. It is a cult that practices necromancy, idol worship, priest craft and, has an apostate head that presents himself as the ONLY ONE who can speak for Christ. Of course, this is a complete and utter lie.
Wow, lots of misunderstandings to digest here. You really need to study the Catholic Church for what it is. All I ask is for you to put aside that Bob Jones anti-Catholic literature and read what Catholic theologians say about the faith, then form an opinion. I will say this much, asking a Saint in heaven to PRAY FOR YOU and your intentions is no different than asking a friend or family member to pray FOR YOU. We ask them to pray for us, not worshipping them.
Biblical Christians are not influenced or affected by ROMAN Catholicism, Islam or, any other 'people of faith' platform that opposes the work and will of the Living God whose Son is the ONLY propitiation for sins and is the ONLY one who can save any of us.
WHICH BIBLICAL CHRISTIANS???? Look in the phone book.... There are literally thousands of different "Biblical Christians". In addition you guys and gals don't preach the same things. Whos right? Whos wrong?
@jdamn:
You said: "Muslims believe that the earth is flat and that 6 and 8 are the same number, just for starters."
Don't be absurd. It may be possible that some lunatic hardcore Muslim fanatics believe this, but not your average everyday Muslim. Again...painting with broad strokes. Most of the Muslims I know I met through my job at JPMorgan Chase. What we do requires knowledge of math. I think management would have noticed if some of the staff were arbitrarily switching 6s and 8s. Furthermore, before the Muslim worlds own Dark Ages, science and mathematics flourished. The Islamic people are, in fact, credited with helping develop the entire field of algebra.
from above: thousands of different "Biblical Christians". In addition you guys and gals don't preach the same things.
Yes they do, Bibical Christians and Jews preach essentially the same thing...Their religions vary only by details...The two most important points of agreement are the 'Supreme Commandment', and the Golden Rule...Without these Christianity would be Islam...
Islam is not even qualified to be in the world of variations...
"....the vast majority of the Muslim world is more moderate than espoused on this site, I see that happening."
Posted by: jeff in chicago
So what. We know that they are out there. The question is, WHERE?
This is Jihad Watch, not Moderate-Muslims Watch. The last 1 1/2 weeks should provide enough evidence to you, and to the world, that there is a "vast majority of Muslims" who are NOT moderate. These are the Muslims we are headlining here.
Besides, the moderate Muslim is somewhat of a misnomer and a mystery to me, because they remain WAY too quiet to be of any use to.
The moderate may as well be a stuffed shirt (or stuffed skirt) for the usefulness that they provide. Please, can you point to a single contribution that they've made towards stopping the evils of Islam?
And as to your response to my above post last night, you never answered my question. You only reversed me by asking ME a question. Try answering my question first, please. Thank you.
jeff in chicago: In that search for truth I mentioned in an above post, one of the things you must nail down right away is not mischaracterizing what others say or write. Virtually no one who posts at Jihad Watch regularly thinks that all Muslims are murderous fanatics. Quite the contrary. All are aware that most Muslims are bumps-on-the-log kind of believers, just as exists with every other major faith. The problem is threefold: 1) many Muslims ARE prepared to either themselves engage in violence or actively and enthusiastically support those who do (this group alone adds up to at least tens of millions across the world); 2) so-called moderate Muslims, to whom many like yourself look to to "rescue" Islam, are strangely silent again and again when Muslims atrocities occur (an almost daily occurrence around the world)------they either don't condemn them at all or conditionalize their condemnation egregiously; 3) unlike any other religion, Islam calls for war to be made upon the unbeliever and for its religious law (Sharia) to eventually replace all other legal and constitutional systems across the earth------no major school of Islamic theology to this day has even remotely repudiated these tenets.
Keep in mind what Abraham Lincoln said about slavery-----one can hate the sin without necessarily hating the sinner. And so it is with Islam and Muslims. I have concluded that Islam, unlike any other major faith, is evil. Now, you must decide if someone like me is correct or incorrect. Keep an open mind and don't distort what others aver while trying to determine for yourself what Islam is all about.
Jeff..Don't be absurd. It may be possible that some lunatic hardcore Muslim fanatics believe this, but not your average everyday Muslim.
The Quran is the very, very current , real time , word of Allah. All Mohammadans by virtue of submission, believe that. No Mohammadan will question the word of Allah, even if they have reason to believe otherwise.
The Quran states in five places, that the world is flat, like a carpet, and the mountains are holding it down.
So in spite of scientific evidence, who is a Mohammdan to believe, Allah, or scheming kufr scientists?
You should ask a pious Mohammadan if he believes every word is from Allah, then ask him if Allah was kidding about the world being flat...
Let the Mohammadan who believes the world is round, stand up in mosque, and declare the Quran as faulty...
There are places in the world where people still live in what could only be described as a prehistoric manner. There are places where people still live in thatched huts, dress in loin clothes and subsist on food that they have to kill themselves with spears.
NONE of these places are Christian or Jewish. Every single tribal culture which still exists on this planet is, in fact, Muslim. The only exception to this is Rwanda, where people are not Bushmen like the people you described. Rwanda is screwed, like Nepal, by virtue of being surrounded by Islamis nations. Note that these are also the only two non-Muslim 3rd-world nations in existence.
Pulling African populations – another group living in near-prehistoric conditions – out of their culture and dropping them into ours didn’t work out so well, either.
I know and have known people from every corner of Africa. Every single non-Muslim one of them readily adapted and assimilated into American society and did so without one iota of effort. All people who are not Muslim readily adapt to free-world society. All of them. Name one non-Muslim group of people who hasn't. One. In history. Anywhere. Ever. I'm waiting.
From a religion standpoint, Islam is 600 years younger than Christianity. Considering Christianity is merely 2,000 years old, that’s a significant difference. Consider where the “enlightened” West was 600 years ago. The nations of Europe were invading each other, as conquering and land-grabbing were the rules of the day. Slaughtering the population of the country next door was the norm. This may have not been proscribed by religion, but these actions were carried out in “the name of God.” Just 500 years ago, with the West’s discovery of the “New World,” the West started a new slaughter of the indigenous population of North America. Just 400 years ago the U.S. begins wholesale abduction of African populations to serve as our slaves, a practice that lasted until just 150 years ago. Just how much more civilized were we?
Christianity and Judaism, as I stated before, ended slavery. Abolition and manumission are foundational to both faiths. Clearly you know nothing of the Islamic slave trade. Once you learn thing #1 about Islam I would suggest you investigate it. I will be happy to provide you with an excellent reading list. I already posted it on DhimmiWatch a couple of months ago.
As for you "we had a headstart" argument, again, I blew it out of the water before you reposted it. The Middle East, Northern Africa, and Eastern Europe were all Rome. They had every bit as much of a headstart as did Western civilization. East Asia did not, and yet, they're lightyears ahead of even the most "moderate, syncretistic" Islamic hellhole like Turkey, Indonesia, or Bosnia. Lightyears. Every single Islamic paradise, every single inch of the Muslim world, was far, FAR more advanced prior to Islam's destruction of it. I explained how any why this happens.
I did not, however, mention the inbreeding/devolution factor. Visit consag.net and click on the Global Prevalence Map. Islam encourages incest. Perv Mo raped his retarded 6-year-old niece and advocated at every opportunity that others do the same, so not only do incest and pedophilia run rampant in the Muslim world, but it is incumbent upon all Muslims to encourage people to rape their own underage family members. It also precludes evolution through the lack of natural selection due to female genital mutilation and "arranged" (i.e. forced, as they are ALWAYS carried out under threat of death, since Islam encourages infanticide by making it legal for parents and grandparents to kill their offspring for whichever reason they may choose) "marriages." By the way, there's no such thing as "marriage" or "wives" in Islam. "Nikah" ("marriage") means sex, sex slavery, incest, child molestation, and rape. Read the Koran. It's all the same thing to Muslims and sex slavery is what "marriage" consists of. "Wife" is "that which is penetrated." Muslims call their "wives" "cousins," even when they're nieces or half-sisters. And yes, exogamy is unheard-of in the Muslim world. The only circumstances under which people have sex with non-family members are through the abduction of war-booty infidels, rape of Muslimas, gay tristes, and prostitution, which is legal in both Sunni and Shia Islam.
The reason for fanatacism, aside from Saudi petrodollars and the Muslim Brotherhood, is "charity." You know, Pillar #4. It literally means "alms for jihad." Muslims don't believe in charity. There is no Arabic word for "charity," or at least it means something very different than it does to people with souls, like the words "innocent" or "terrorism." Islam guarantees that terror will always have funding. All practicing Muslims are terrorists because of Pillar #4. They all donate 2.5% of their income to terrorism. So much for your "moderate majority" argument, Jeff. That's right: all practicing Muslims are terrorists by definition and without exception, at least, so long as they're in possession of a single shilling.
@duh_swami:
You said: "This is not a yahoo chatroom it is an academic site...Learning go's on here."
Please. Do I write like a rube? This is not an academic site. It is a polemic screed site. I have not read every word of the site, but it's clear that the site has a predisposed viewpoint and only posts writings that agree with that viewpoint.
(I almost never do this, but ... academic? "Learning GO'S on here?" GO'S??? If this is academia, I'll enroll at another school.)
I am not criticizing the site, for that matter, but the posters therein. Academics do not choose "ala sux" for a screen name. Academics do not say "oh but allah does suck. allah was a false pagan moon god, so he sucks BIG time! Lets not forget his side-kick Muhammad, he sucks BIG time, too." Academics don't stoop to ad hominim attacks like: "I won't lets you transfer your hate and bitterness to me because that's exactly how evil works , you have no real life victories , nor do I think you have ever contributed to Humanity for a better world."
@wellington:
You wrote: "But what you don't seem to understand is that the Old Testament was not meant to be a paradigm for action for all time."
I think there are a few Jews -- perhaps all of them -- who would disagree with that statement.
Jeff, the Muslims with whom I'm in grad school unanimously agree, at least the Egyptian ones (the Tanzanian guy seems to have somewhat of a clue) that NOTHING IN THE KORAN CONFLICTS WITH SCIENCE. They also believe that the moon is a lamp and that sperm is produced and stored in the kidneys, by both men and women. This is Islamic education. These retards have taught at the university level in Egypt, and one of them is actually retarded, unarguably so. Not one individual from any Muslim nation has the opportunity to earn so much as the equivalent of a Guatemalan 1st-grade education. Sharia ensures this. Egypt has the best educational system in the Muslim world. Check the WCR forum. Its higher educational quality (btw, college education ends at 17) is ranked 122nd out of 131 countries, one of which is not a country, and it scores 3.7 out of 7 where 4.5 is failing. This is as good as it gets. I will grant you that Muslims from non-Muslim nations may not be this idiotic, but yes, Jeff, Muslims from Muslim countries actually are, as are all devout Muslims by definition, the definition set out in Islamic texts, which mandate fundamentalism and literalism all over the place.
Correction my above post:
A vast majority of Muslims have provided ongoing terrorism for years, centuries, and beyond. So my pointing to the past 1 1/2 weeks was very minimizing; in light of their history with violence. Beginning, but not ending with, Muhammad himself.
I was right all along Jeff...you don't know enough to compete so you resort to pointing out typo's of something only a frustrated English teacher would care about...You are dead wrong about this site...it's function and purpose is not to do as you claim but to educate...You might get what you complain about from some commenters, but they are not JW...I suppose you would expect an anti-jihad website to take some other position...Unrealistic...
You have shown that you are not worth debating with because as I stated above, your severe lack of knowledge keeps you perpetually off topic...
Jeff... it's clear that the site has a predisposed viewpoint and only posts writings that agree with that viewpoint.
That's an out and out lie...
jeff in chicago gave himself away, when he cited Luke 19:27 as "proof" that the New Testament calls for violence against non-believers.
Only idiots with an agenda -- atheist or Islamic -- cite that verse. I have heard and seen many Muslims cite this verse as the same "proof" jeff claimed. Only someone with a deficient education could possibly be serious about using that verse as "proof" like jeff did. Any hump with half a brain can see by reading the context of that verse that it does not constitute the "proof" jeff thinks it does.
I also noticed jeff never responded to the other commenter who pointed this out to him.
jeff in chicago: I am not aware of a single Ultra-Orthodox rabbi anywhere in the world that thinks that an adulteress should still be stoned to death. But in the Islamic world one could find fistfuls of imams who think just this. Also, Judaic law was meant through all time to apply only to Jews. Islamic law is meant to apply to everyone, whether Muslim or not. Again, reconsider.
"I think there are a few Jews -- perhaps all of them -- who would disagree with that statement."
Posted by: jeff in chicago
I haven't seen any of those "few Jews" exploding, kidnapping people, torturing them, beheading them, mass-murdering in various places around the globe, and also plotting to do same but being stopped in time. But I have seen many Muslims doing this all over the place, from the Philippines to Argentina, from London to Madrid, from New York to Mumbai, from Moscow to Bali, etc. These important differences don't matter to jeff because he's either blind or he's prejudiced or both.
Jeff also declined to answer my question, 'Do you believe Allah is God and Mohammad his messenger'?
Not answering tells me almost as much as an answer...
Jeff also saw fit to not refute any of my claims. He did, however, see fit to disparage duh_swami's incorrect use of an apostrophe, despite the fact that he doesn't have the difference between "here" and "hear" worked out.
Jeff is a troll...Simple...
I would like to apologize for my use of the Luke verse. I was wrong. I did hasty research in an attempt to respond, and I failed.
jeff in Chicago:
My statement on Muslims not being able to coexist with their neighbors was mainly to point out the utter lack of integration with the mainstream that is prevalent throughout the Muslim community.
What I'm trying to point out is, there every city in India has Muslim Ghettos, and big cities have several of them. On the other hand, I have never seen Buddhist Ghettos, Christian Ghettos or any other kind of Ghetto. Muslims complain about discrimination at the drop of a hat, but do not want to join the mainstream. If a Muslim says that he needs to go for his Friday prayers, whether it is in University or at work, professors/managers would not dare to object or order them to stay back. I have not found a single instance of a follower of any other religion going out of his/her way to constantly fight the mainstream, rather than try to join in.
I have not been to the US yet, but from what I have seen in Europe, these 'Muslim-only' enclaves are mushrooming all over the place. This is what I meant by "Unable to co-exist with neighbors", I wasn't referring to Israel-Palestine.
Wellington wrote: "I am not aware of a single Ultra-Orthodox rabbi anywhere in the world that thinks that an adulteress should still be stoned to death. But in the Islamic world one could find fistfuls of imams who think just this. "
Not only that, but way back in the 14th century, about 700 years ago, a major Muslim scholar, Baydawi, was even then complaining about how the Jews had given up stoning!
Baydawi lists all the things wrong with the Jews:
“because they disbelieved and killed the prophets unjustly” by reason of their disbelief in miracles, e.g. the splitting of the sea, the clouds giving shade, and the sending of the manna and quails, and splitting of the rock into twelve fountains/or, disbelief in the revealed books, e.g. the Gospel, Qur’an, the verse of stoning, and the Torah verse in which Muhammad is depicted..."
Baydawi. ed. Fleischer, H. O. Commentaius in Coranum. Anwaar al-Tanziil Wa-Asraar al-Ta’wiil. 1846—48. Reprint Osnabrück 1968, p. 63. English translation by Michael Schub.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/020584.php#more
These Islamics will do whatever it takes to win, whether it be physical in nature or in this case, intimidation and fear, by attacking the 3rd largest Catholic Cathedral with the use of their Islamic Prayers, burning of Israel flags and Words(Not Catholic or Christians), trying to intimidate the Catholic Church as a whole, and in my opinion, The Catholic Church and People must denounce what happen yesterday and if it ever happens again, to charge the Islamic Leaders in question and those Islamics, on Harassment and Threatening the Roman Catholic people through these method and defend the Church as well.
"My statement on Muslims not being able to coexist with their neighbors was mainly to point out the utter lack of integration with the mainstream that is prevalent throughout the Muslim community."
I have a Filipina friend, she is Catholic, in her 40s, has lived both in the Philippines and in the US for a number of years, well educated. The society of people she hangs out with is friendly with gays which she acknowledges matter-of-factly is one important part of Filipino life; tolerant of music, dancing, frank discussion of sexuality, happy about life. By contrast, she has described the Muslim Filipinos who are in the northern part of the Philippines (most are in the south) as mostly surly, unsociable, unfriendly, stick to themselves, complain about things "offending" them (once my friend says she witnessed a Muslim lady spat out the soup she was served in a restaurant claiming it had pork residue in it and stormed out). Many come north just to set up stands to sell things to make money off the non-Muslims, then go back to the south to use that money for their Islamic community.
I know many Filipino Catholics; they are all nice, friendly, open, tolerant people who can easily assimilate and enjoy modern life. And more Catholics in the Philippines also have the freedom and openness to leave the Church and join other churches, or just become agnostics or atheists. Nobody gets death threats for doing so, like they do in Muslim communities when a Muslim dares to leave. Why are the Catholics of the Philippines this way, but the Muslims not?
@duh_swami:
(Sorry, I really meant to answer this one.)
Do I believe Allah is God and Mohammad his messenger?
No, I certainly do not.
----------------------------
@jdamn:
You wrote: "Jeff also saw fit to not refute any of my claims. He did, however, see fit to disparage duh_swami's incorrect use of an apostrophe, despite the fact that he doesn't have the difference between "here" and "hear" worked out."
Your discussion was with DenverRodeo and I chose not to enter that one. I admit I do not know enough about the Koran to refute your claims about what it does or does not teach. That has never been the focus of my posts. I have tried to stay with my "don't stereotype" arguments.
By the time of my last post you hadn't responded to me except for the "6 v. 8" post, which I did answer.
And...DAMN! That's exactly why I usually don't go down the bad spelling route! I deserve that slam big time!
jeff in chicago: Good one about the Luke verse reversal on your part. Being able to admit you're wrong, not an easy thing to do, is invariably an important factor in the attempt to get at the truth of things. By the way, as some here at JW already know, I am not religious in the least, but the world would be far better off, in my opinion, if every Muslim woke up tomorrow a devout Christian, Jew, Buddhist, Hindu, Sikh, Taoist or Zoroastrian (hell, for that matter, even a Rastafarian).
Also, take a good, long look at Mohammed himself. He is a very disturbing personality and I think the key to understanding why Islam is so warped in so many ways. Jesus is an infinitely preferable monotheistic religious founder to Mohammed. In any comparison, Jesus wins hands down.
Muslim?
Atheist?
Which is it, jeff?
Don't keep us guessing.
@jdamn:
Yes, I suppose the big two religions did play a part in ended slavery, despite it being condoned throughout the bible. It only took them a few centuries, and seemed to happen just when it became bad P.R. for them, but I'll give them some credit.
I must say that I am concerned about your grad school, as it accepted "these retards" ... and you.
"don't stereotype" arguments." -- by jeff
OK. Now I'm mad.
Stereotyping is NOT what's important here, nor is it what this site is about. It's about bringing the evils of Islam to the worlds attention, to your attention. Because dog-gone-it, most of the media won't!!
This site has educated me as to the truth about Muhammad and Islam's evil ideologies. I agree, that there are comments made by some that come across in a stereotypical manner, but pointing that out is really majoring on the minors, as far as I'm concerned.
If changing stereotypes is what's important to you, then this is not the site for you. The fact that you have made this minor detail important infuriates me, because we are living in very dangerous times, and placing importance on that is just so stupid. I mean it's really stupid.
Lives are at stake, and you're quibbling over stereotypes? You're useless here. Bye, bye.
jeff in chicago: Are you familiar with the constant rioting & immolation of vehicles that Muslim "youths" have inflicted on European cities? IIRC, this past New Year, in excess of 1,000 cars burned in France alone?
I would certainly not suggest that every young Muslim in Europe is involved in these events. In addition, there are probably a few instances of this behavior that were perpetrated by non-Muslims. OTOH, do you feel I am "stereotyping" by identifying the (typical) arsonists as Muslims?
@Suzy:
You said: "There's no calling for violence against non-beleivers in the NT, no calling for violence against sinners either."
Wrong. In Luke 19:27 Jesus himself says: "But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them — bring them here and kill them in front of me."
Posted by: jeff in chicago January 10, 2009 1:09 PM
Wrong. In Luke 19:27 Jesus himself says: "But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them — bring them here and kill them in front of me."
And you are a dishonest mug , Jesus is talking in parable , the parable of the minas in which a King says : "But those enemies of mine etc ...
Posted by: Péguy January 10, 2009 1:12 PM
Exactly. Hey Jeff - Jesus is relating a PARABLE in which the KING in the Parable says that! Jesus Himself NEVER says to kill anyone! Man, you are so misguided it's not funny! It's a PARABLE! Go back to Luke 19:27 and ACTUALLY READ IT! STUPID!
jeff in Chicago
I repeat,
You have to live in or near a muslim enclave to see what is going on. I lived within 2 miles of a muslim area for 20 years and saw nothing until my job took me INTO an area that was 98% muslim. Even so my brother lives in a 99% British suburb is a fully paid up liberal becomes very angry at any suggestion that muslim bombers are not “A tiny minority of extremists”. He shouts that the whole anti muslim thing is just the old neo Nazi’s tactic of demonising harmless hard working people.
But your statement,
"Again...painting with broad strokes. Most of the Muslims I know I met through my job at JPMorgan Chase."
This is priceless!
Just how representative of the million plus illiterate muslim farmers living in Britain - whom I have worked among for 10 years - are the muslim employees of J P Morgan Chase?
Sums it up really - You are the one painting with broad strokes.
NOTE
"Illiterate muslim farmers" before you tell me I am an ignorant bigot, a relative taught in a predominantly muslim junior school. To show her commitment to her job she had all the signs written up in Urdu. The parents expressed their appreciation for the gesture however they admitted they could not read them. A great many of the muslims I meet, particularly the middle aged and older are totally illiterate. Not only that, their knowledge of spoken English is often limited and in the interests of "valuing diversity" little is done to improve it. A muslim acquaintance said in last month that he was frustrated by the determination of the British authorities to teach muslims their "own" languages when they badly needed to learn English.
@jdamn:
Yes, I suppose the big two religions did play a part in ended slavery, despite it being condoned throughout the bible. It only took them a few centuries, and seemed to happen just when it became bad P.R. for them, but I'll give them some credit.
I must say that I am concerned about your grad school, as it accepted "these retards" ... and you.
Posted by: jeff in chicago at January 10, 2009 2:44 PM
You're the "retard," jeff. As champ said, "You're useless here. Bye Bye." Man, you are dumb. I suggest you convert to Islam immediately, and start worshipping their mass-murdering-commanding pagan moon deity, "allah," that doesn't exist. "allah" is military Warlord Mohamet, jeff. Grow a brain!
Far be it from me to derail the derailing of this thread as I have been fascinated reading the attempts to educate a well-meaning, intelligent but WRONG person, Jeff.
However, I'd like to make one point about the original topic, the obvious (and pathetic) attempt by muslims in Italy to intimidate Christians by 'praying' in front of the Cathedral.
So far, all I've seen here are suggestions about how to react to the same action should it happen again. That's all well and good, but what's wrong with being proactive here? Why wouldn't it be a good idea to pray in front of a large mosque during one of the demonstrations in support of Israel that have been listed in another thread? Preferably on a Friday. Violent reaction in response? Condemnation by the world's muslims and MSM? Point to how Christians in Italy reacted...now THAT might get some 'interfaith dialogue' going that people without a clue might pay attention to!
Muslim?
Atheist?
Which is it, jeff?
Don't keep us guessing.
Posted by: champ at January 10, 2009 2:38 PM
How 'bout stupid PC idiot who knows nothing about Islam and has never read the War/Hate Manual called the Koran?
@champ:
Atheist. Full-blown, unapologetic atheist.
And I was about done with you, too. It's been a treat. Have a good life.
-------------------------------
@darcy:
It's always a good idea to read all the posts before commenting. I've admitted my mistake already. Try to keep up.
-------------------------------
@wellington:
As an atheist, it is easy and correct to assume that I have problems with all the ghost-in-the-sky memes. But if I had to rank religions, I would probably have to agree with your placement of Islam.
Jeff is a troll...Simple...
Posted by: duh_swami at January 10, 2009 2:20 PM
I would like to apologize for my use of the Luke verse. I was wrong. I did hasty research in an attempt to respond, and I failed.
Posted by: jeff in chicago at January 10, 2009 2:20 PM
Great! Because you will NEVER EVER find ANYTHING in the NT in which Jesus orders the killing of anyone in His name. Koran? Oh, yeah, "allah" does it ALL THE TIME. "It" is a mass-murdering-commanding moon deity of all "Infidels" and "Unbelievers." You seriously need to read the Koran as you obviously know nothing about the Islamic evil Genocidal 7th century AD Naziism contained within. Jew-Haters, Christian-Haters, EVERYONE-HATERS, but their fellow Muzlims, of course.
Jesus and "allah" are diametrically opposed. They are opposites. Capische? The Islamic god is NOT the Judeo-Christian God. Capische?
In France you cannot even criticize islam. This philosopher who dared say Mo was a criminal is now living like a fugitive under police protection.
Think about it, a century ago the Catholic Church was still influential in France , yet intellectuals could harshly criticize the church without having to fear for their lives.
The socialists could pass anti-clerical laws without having to fear for their lives.
No anti catholic was ever killed in the streets because of his opinions ; but nowdays being against islam can cost your life (theo van ghog in holland).
Now muslims even want laws to prohibit the defamation of islam.
Mocking religions is a tradition in France , should that change because muslims cannot handle criticism ?
The last polls shows that ONLY 37% of the muslim pop. are against the implementation of Sharia. That shows that the vast majority of them are subversive elements that we need to get rid of; because they do not want to integrate , they do not respect the culture and the traditions of my country.
Why is there no problem with the large chinese french community ? Because islam as an ideology is the problem
Now there are some muslims against Sharia who want to abrogate the violent verses but they have zero credibility among muslims; simply because muslims consider sharia to be perfect.
Finally, it takes an ideologue or a fool to believe there is no problem with islam in europe or in america. Islam is there to overthrow our cultures.
Bangalorean
Just to confirm your 2.21 post is 100% correct whatever jeff in Chicago cares to believe.
As to these areas being off limits to police in India, it is much the same in the UK. There was a letter to an English language paper "Muslim News" a couple of years ago which asked,
"How can the Police expect our co-operation even with serious matters such as the beating up of a policeman when 2 van loads of them come into our areas to arrest a man for a driving offense?"
He just does not understand that he has answered his own question, but such genuinely innocent letters are the only hint we have of what is going on.
Try to keep up. --Ignorant jeff
NO, YOU keep up! You don't know jack about Islam! You haven't even read their War/Hate/Mass-Murder Manual! NO - YOU keep up! Ignorant know-nothing PC troll.
Wellington: Can you please provide a link to whatever Bertrand Russell said about Islam? Thanx.
Jeff: I've learned that I can get more out of this site by seldom arguing. When the word “retard” starts getting tossed around, it’s time to disengage. Remember Saint Thomas More’s maxim: “In silence is my refuge.”
Watch and pray.
~S. Kevin
@mepeteart:
You said: "Far be it from me to derail the derailing of this thread as I have been fascinated reading the attempts to educate a well-meaning, intelligent but WRONG person, Jeff."
I cannot tell if I'm the "wrong person" or you're telling me about the "wrong person." :)
"However, I'd like to make one point about the original topic, the obvious (and pathetic) attempt by muslims in Italy to intimidate Christians by 'praying' in front of the Cathedral."
Pathetic? If it was meant to raise a hackle, it sure seems to have done so, at least on this site!
"So far, all I've seen here are suggestions about how to react to the same action should it happen again. That's all well and good, but what's wrong with being proactive here? Why wouldn't it be a good idea to pray in front of a large mosque during one of the demonstrations in support of Israel that have been listed in another thread?"
I think that's an excellent suggestion.
"Violent reaction in response? Condemnation by the world's muslims and MSM? Point to how Christians in Italy reacted...now THAT might get some 'interfaith dialogue' going that people without a clue might pay attention to!"
Interesting. How DID the Christians in Italy react? Can you point me to a link? I am serious. I haven't seen anything, but, as the other posters here tell me, the MSM is ignoring this event.
@champ:
Atheist. Full-blown, unapologetic atheist.
And I was about done with you, too. It's been a treat. Have a good life.
Hey champ - the stupid unlearned atheist just insulted you, too! Poor unlearned "jeff" - have you converted to Islam yet? Because that bogus, hoax, political ideology disguised as a "religion" is about your speed.
"Remember Saint Thomas More’s maxim: “In silence is my refuge.” --skevin
Right, Thomas More was silent - and ultimately had his head lopped off by Henry V111 - so, what's your point?
@darcy:
You wrote: "...you will NEVER EVER find ANYTHING in the NT in which Jesus orders the killing of anyone in His name."
Correct. That's his dad's job.
whoops~ Jeff I didn't get the atheist thing before I posted. Atheists, of course can be allies of atni-jihadists. So, watch and....consider. ~SKPW
The sight of ranks of men and boys kneeling in prayer in the piazza directly in front of the Gothic building...where are the women and girls?
Posted by: breezy55 at January 10, 2009 12:16 AM
The female Mohammedan slaves are either being impregnated by their polygamous husbands, being honor killed, or having their genitals cut out.
jeff:
An atheist, OK. But there's no need to apologize, nor was I asking for one. Sames holds true if your reply had stated that you were a Muslim. Another poster pointed out the possibility of your being either an atheist or a Muslim, so I thought it helpful to know which one you might be.
I would appreciate a response to my other comment regarding "stereotypes". When you aren't too busy, because I can see that you have several responses to make today.
@darcy:
You wrote: "...you will NEVER EVER find ANYTHING in the NT in which Jesus orders the killing of anyone in His name."
Correct. That's his dad's job.
Posted by: jeff in chicago at January 10, 2009 3:45 PM
LOL! Man, you are such a know-nothing. I pity you. You had your hopes dashed when you discovered Jesus never commanded the murder of anyone! Poor pitiful atheist jeff. "allah's" commands to "Kill the Infidels" and "Slay the Unbelievers" are ETERNAL, FOR-ALL-TIME, NEVER-ENDING - can you comprehend that, jeff? And guess what? YOU'RE an Infidel AND Unbeliever! Islam hates your guts!
I hope Jeff in Chicago continues to come back to this site. If he is as critical of Islam as he is of other posters' comments he will learn a lot.
Jeff,
Please do not steroetype the posters here. I have seen, over the last (4 or 5?) years that I have been visiting, a very diverse set of people with unique experiences and ideas.
Please do not stereotype Religions being inclusive of Islam either. The differences in Islam that have resulted in this perpetual Jihad pestilence need to be studied, understood and taught to every non-Muslim (and Muslim in name only) person on this earth.
Hey, darcy! Yeah, I caught that insult. I don't care. Guess he's mad 'cause I told him he's useless here.
I, and I think others, are more concerned with blood bought freedoms and more lives being lost due to Islam, than about the mismanagement of stereotypes.
Jeff, you may want to start your own website and call it Stereotypes Watch. You are really missing the point of Jihad Watch to be concerned about stereotypes when we are at war with evil Islam. Oh, and the moderates are not who threaten us, so leave them out of it; and you live in Chicago? You may want to consider moving to the ME, since you just aren't getting 'it' on this forum. I think you'll get 'it' over there.
jeff in chicago
"Interesting. How DID the Christians in Italy react? Can you point me to a link? I am serious. I haven't seen anything, but, as the other posters here tell me, the MSM is ignoring this event"
To give some insight into reporting and the attitude of the MSM in Europe.
Just after 9/11 a BBC news editor refused to sanction the following statement in a bulletin, "Of course most British muslims do not support alqueda". As an honest professional his view was simple - "We do not know whether they do or not so the statement is without foundation" He was fired.
We have here in the UK a right-wing party called the BNP which due to public alarm has been getting a worrying amount of support. At the general election in about 2002 one of their candidates put out a leaflet stating muslims had been responsible for riots in a particular city.
His defense was that it was a true statement and the judge agreed. However he also said it was likely to incite racial hatred and therefore illegal so he gave him 12 months in jail. Most would say that was a form of censorship.
At a local level, knowing how "sensitive" these things are I was surprised to see 2 reports in our local paper reflecting badly on muslims. The first concerned a muslim who had crammed 400 Afghans into 100 filthy houses for which we taxpayers were paying him £13,000 a WEEK - about $20,000 at the time. They also reported that Iraqi "asylum seekers" on welfare and settled in fully furnished houses at our expense had been stoning uncovered English girls and shouting they were "whores". Lets just say they received a visit from the authorities that left the editorial staff in a state of shock. It will be a long time before they upset muslims again.
Furthermore, jeff, the Old Testament quotes are DESCRIPTIVE and not PRESCRIPTIVE (as in the violent and hateful Koran: "Slay the unbelievers wherever you find them" Surah 9:5 and many other such verses).
The violence in the OT was clearly limited in time, scope, and area. Whereas, "allah's" commands to mass-murder are ETERNAL. Do you get that huge difference, jeff? In addition, ALL religions contain violence, so what's your point?
You need to get a copy of RS's "Religion of Peace? Why Christianity Is and Islam Isn't" (2007) forthwith and read it. Return to this site with some actual knowledge, not just your PC MoonBat musings! lol
Darcy nails it and hits a homer with this comment:
"The violence in the OT was clearly limited in time, scope, and area. Whereas, "allah's" commands to mass-murder are ETERNAL."
You are exactly right, darcy, the purpose and intent behind OT directives of war are FAR different from that of the evil purposes of the Qur'an. Good point!
"PC MoonBat musings! lol"
No kidding, I am sick to my stomach from the smell of the PC-Soup being served up today, and last night, too.
Jeff, you're wrong about the 6 & 8 thing:
http://answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/i010.html
Muslims cope with this by accepting that they are the same number. Of course, when they take the kafir GRE they abide by normal mathematics. They have a quite a knack for this. They also believe that human beings were created from clay, from water, and from a blood clot. They have no problem calling Jesus "Esau," either.
I also can't believe that nobody jumped on your claim that Muslims invented algebra. The Sansrit Indians invented it long before the advent of Islam. Imagine how may of them do you think had to get killed in order for Muslims to claim the credit? Then again, Muslims think they discovered America and won the Yom Kippur War, too.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/018746.php
Academic enough for you?
Can you show me where in the Bible it condones slavery? For someone who claims to be familiar with Exodus, you sure do seem to have missed the point entirely.
I attend a very reputable grad school, Indiana University-Bloomington. It has one of the best linguistics departments in the world, but any Ikhwanist Arab can be accepted, even if retarded, because the Chair is on the Saudi payroll and is a closet Muslim posing as a token Jew. Much fine scholarship comes from my department, none of it from Egyptians. You may like to investigate the work of Drs. Obeng, Herring, Kuebler, or DeJong, for starters. As in the rest of society, Arabs are never held to any standard whatsoever, be it moral, ethical, legal, academic, or intellectual.
My 2:53, 3:30, 1:48, and 2:00 posts were all directed at you. DenverRodeo and I were merely discussing the non-recognition of Islam by the Italian goverment.
Finally, Islam is a cult, an inherently fundamentalist one. No, you can't judge all Muslims by Islam. Why? Because Islam makes it incumbent upon Muslims to kill apostates, so there are a lot of in-name-only Muslims. Real Muslims can, in fact, be painted with a broad brush, but in any event, I was discussing Islam, not Muslims.
Regarding the biblical verses quoted above, Exodus 21:17 and Deuteronomy 13:6-10, there are of interest exactly for the contrast they offer to similar instructions in the mohammedan canon (that being koran, sura and hadith).
The relevant points of contrast being:
1) When they were written.
2) The societal context in which they were written and where that fits in the flow of history
3) The literary context in which they are situated.
4) How many centuries ago they fell into disuse.
5) Why they fell into disuse, and what is the doctrinal position around that issue
6) Where those doctrines and related thinking stand today
I can't claim to have seen the history on points 4 & 5, although I'd very much like to find out.
If I do find something out I'll try to come back and post something here. For the moment I can speculate. (If someone else here knows please clue me in).
However on the other questions I can comment lightly.
1&2 - These writings date from more than two millenia ago (probably 3 - 3.5). And at that time the consensus is that the Jewish/Hebrew/Israeli group was probably still nomadic or making the transition to farming.
It can reasonably be inferred that much of the legal structure created at the time was oriented toward maintaining orderly and peaceful relations within a stable community, and a continuity of legal standards -- something much to be prized in a time of general tribal warfare.
With respect to timeline there is a strong contrast here to the rise of the mohammedan literature, which dates from certainly at least 1700 years later, in a world-historical context in which city states, even nations where common, and whole empires with complex legal structures ruled much of the world. All of which were accessible by travel to the peoples of ancient arabia.
The mohammedan writings also arose well after the Christian teachings, themselves predominantly pacifistic, had become widely adopted.
So the historical context itself, suggests a turning away from the surrounding cultural influences and advances -- a reversion to or fixation on the ancient tribal standards -- a (possibly willful) refusal to understand or adopt the more sophisticated or at least more modern ethical standards that had come into existence.
This suggests a background culture which, for whatever reason, was not receptive to adopting the advances achieved in Rome, Greece, Israel, Persia, India etc ... (And the Romans were all over the place by then).
======
3 - In the literary context the contrast could not be more stark.
I will point out that these doctrines are not military directives, but rather police/judicial directives, and directives that exist alongside the commands not to kill, covet or lie, and in a Christian context to "love thy neighbor".
Moreover, they make no reference to outsiders nor are there any positive directives about violence toward outsiders in the context around them.
Regarding the mohammedan canon it's better that I just refer to this piece:
Refuting Counter-Terrorism Dhimmitude
which is also linked here:
Warner: Refuting Counter-Terrorism Dhimmitude
For the moment I will quote briefly:
========
6 - Regarding the current status of these doctrines, one cannot in good faith claim any similarity between the mohammedan and Judeo-Christian sides, the evidence is just too pervasive and obvious.
One can hardly go online without seeing well respected mainline figures of the mohammedan block, political, clerical or academic, anouncing the validity and indeed imperative nature of of the bloody and military aspects of the mohammedan canon, and items of its being put into practice on a daily basis -- from mass riots, stonings, "honor" killings and random murders to calls to war (jihad) and the destruction of nations and peoples.
By contrast you simply cannot find, search as you like, a public figure in the western churches, synagogues, schools, governments or press, defending or calling for such practices -- much less putting them into action.
========
So basically the Tu Quoque doesn't work here.
========
I'll add that this site does also serve, apart from it's main educational purpose, as a place for people to let off steam about the state of the world and the resistance to sharia and jihad.
That is is the guest posters and not the site staff that do so cannot be denied. Search the archives as much as you like. It's true.
It is perfectly understandable that hostility toward a dedicated and merciless enemy is going to get voiced. And there is no harm in it. Quite the contrary.
Until mohammedans bring their religious doctrines and practices up to date and in step with modern and humane civilized standards -- universally, not in a few sophisticated well-to-do patches -- it is perfectly appropriate that their backward and bloody doctrines be maligned and mocked at every opportunity, in fact it's important that they be so, for the welfare of humanity's sake.
Nazism stands in bad odor today precisely because so much ink, film and speech has been dedicated to maligning it.
If the mohammedans of this world don't want their doctrine to suffer the same fate, then let them clean it up, and start acting in a way that can be respected.
skevin: Bertrand Russell made his comparison of Islam with Marxism in his work entitled "The Practice and Theory of Bolshevism," published in 1920. Here is the most relevant passage from that work:
"Bolshevism combines the characteristics of the French Revolution with those of the rise of Islam... Marx has taught that Communism is fatally predestined to come about; this produces a state of mind not unlike that of the the early successors of Mohammed rather than with Christianity and Buddhism. Christianity and Buddhism are primarily personal religions, with mystical doctrines and a love of contemplation. Mohammedanism and Bolshevism are practical, social, unspiritual, concerned to win the empire of this world."
Russell later on analogized Islam to fascism too, but, of course, fascism was a movement in its infancy in 1920 (having been born just a year before in Italy and Germany) and Russell would almost certainly not have known of it yet, at least to any great extent. Hope all this helps.
mepeteart, I'm with in terms of the "next time we should..." rhetoric, but praying in front of mosques in our nations? How about finding some good, Catholic or Evanglical Mexicans who look Arab enough and have them infiltrate these mosques and have them investigated, first for hate speech and selling literature which can be construed as incitement to violence, then, upon further investigation, for whatever tax codes they have violated (and the always have) or for ties to terrorism (which they also always have, since they're all Ikhwan-owned and -run)?
We will not be bowing down in front of mosques. No, we will take more of a "not in my neighborhood" approach.
Skevin, you might enjoy 'Fascism and Paganism' by Craig Read.
jdamn - I certainly was not advocating bowing down in front of a mosque!! Unlike muslims, we don’t have to prostrate ourselves in order for God to hear our prayers…we don’t even have to do so much as bow our heads.
And unlike muslims, when our religions are insulted or we are threatened by intimidation, we don’t go on a rampage.
My suggestion was that if, say, a peaceful demonstration just happened to be near a mosque and the demonstrators thought that praying for peace in front of that mosque would demonstrate how differently we agitate for change…hate the sin, love the sinner…then what’s the harm? And what if, during or after that peaceful demonstration, muslims again showed their true colors by spewing hatred either physically or by oratory, the dialogue could begin. Perhaps the MSM would finally have to sit up and take notice. Perhaps the clueless among us would finally start to compare and contrast and might even start to question what it is exactly that they’re championing in the name of PC.
If we don’t start agitating in a peaceful but ‘in your face’ way, and soon, we’ll go the way of Europe. And eventually all dissent will be stifled.
Jeff, I don't know wether to feel sorry for your ignorance or laugh at you. You seem to be genuine {genuinely decieved } about islam. take off the blinkers and have a good long hard look at
1} 1400 of consistant murderous barbarity and
2} the fundemenatal beliefs and motivating forces behind these creatures.
mepeteart, but why do that when there are legitimate reasons to have 99% of the mosques in the free world shut down, have their assets seized, and have everyone associated with them imprisoned or deported?
I can handle the degradation of my religion. I'm Jewish. I'm used to it and I don't care because it's always on the part of some idiot like Jeff in Chicago who cited Exodus and then claimed that slavery is part of the Judeo-Christian tradition. What I have no tolerance for is the degradation of the legal institutions of my country and the non-enforcement of laws which could serve our agenda very well and all but eliminate Islam in the US. I hate treasonous sedition and I hate that mosques serve as vessels for the financing and organization of jihad. I hate that all practicing Muslims with money finance jihad and I hate that they do it through their local Ikhwan-run mosques and Ikhwan front groups. It's a felony and we shouldn't stand for it.
The reason that I referred to Jeff as a troll above, is because in all his writing, I never figured out just what 'is' his point...
If he knows nothing about Islam and jihad, how can he contribute anything? What's he arguing about?
There's nothing going on here except thread hijacking and bandwidth theft...My major complaint about Abdullah the Quasi Apostate...
Larry King...'What's yer point'?...
'The great one', radio's Mark levin (SP?) 'Get off the phone ya big dope'...
Hey, if a mosque is going to serve as a munitions outlet, then it needs to behave like one and be subject to the same governmental scrunity and regulations that they ALL have to undergo. No exceptions.
Mosque. Just a fancy name for military hot house.
I was out for the afternoon and am leaving again soon, so not much time. (It has been snowing constantly for 24 hours in Chicago. It's a mess out there!)
Two quickies.
Exodus 21: 2-6 --If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever.
1 Timothy 6:1-2 -- And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort.
So I guess I've been set straight. The bible does not condone slavery. Always been against it. Proved it as early as the 1960s! Good to know.
Jeff mentions slavery here in America, but he does not mention who captured and sold the slaves to the Americas--the mohammedans.
The Afro Blacks had three choices, Spayed and neutered and slave to the mohammedans, the cook pot, or "slavery" in the Americas.
Which would you choose?
Some even opted to give up their possessions to come here into "slavery".
I cannot see how any Afro could be a mohammedan, since they, the mohammedans, sold them into slavery.
jeff thanks for proving us that you are a worthless troll
jdamn -
Hey, I'm with you! I hate all those things too, but just hating them and not doing anything to try and change things does just that - it changes nothing.
Right now the reason they aren't changing is because we don't have a mouthpiece big enough to get peoples' attention and open their eyes to the danger among us. And we won't have it until SOMEHOW we can make the MSM pay attention to the stark differences between us and them and maybe even start telling everyone. I was only pointing out one way that that could perhaps be accomplished.
It's like the old analogy of the snowball rolling downhill...get it going and it only gets bigger and bigger.
Or Mexican spies. This, by the way, would prove unequivocally just how much better off we are with non-Mohammedan immigrants, not that Mexicans don't fight and die for the US every day.
jeff in chicago: You're earnest but misdirected. Here's why in this instance: No society or civilization thought slavery wrong until Western Civilization, beginnning with Quakers in the late seventeenth century, determined that it was; things then proceeded from there with success by the end of the nineteenth century. The West, in short, was the first civilization to come to the conclusion that slavery was unacceptable. This is not coincidental.
It is unrealistic to think that unless the Bible would have been resonant with this liberating notion of slavery as wrong millennia ago, and other modern concepts like the efficacy and decency of democracy as the finest form of government, it can therefore be placed on a par with the Koran. What is far more crucial to comprehend is that Judaism and Christianity laid the cornerstones for an emphasis on the worth and dignity of the individual. Ancient Greece did this to, but from a philosophical and political perspective rather than a religious one. And just as the original democracy in Athens did not include for full participation in the state anyone but adult male citizens, so did the Bible, also a product of its time, not jump start to a mind set enlightened folks would embrace today. BUT, the groundwork was laid by the Bible and ancient Greek civilization for evolutionary development. No such capacity exists within the Islamic faith and framework; this is what you seem unable to comprehend and thus you fall into the error of moral equivalency thinking. Islam is static and incapable of flexibility, of a greater inclusiveness as time goes by, more so than just about any other ideology that has ever been developed by man. Look things over again and try being less prone to holding the Bible up as really no different from the Koran. Big mistake if you do. Just as there is not a kinder, gentler Nazism, so there is no kinder, gentler Islam.
Thanx Wellington & jdamn. Will follow up.
Darcy: if you wish to discuss with me the ever provocative Thomas More, then come join us at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sceptredisle/
Present topics include the Battle of Hastings and the origin of the sidesaddle. I'd likely be on your side in a debate about whether King Offa was a Muslim.
@jdamn -
Sheesh, alright already, go recruit Mexican spies.
I prefer to think that minimalism is always a more elegant way to go.
PS - I'd love to see you recruit some up here in the frozen midwest right now! Or maybe there's more of a population to draw from in Indiana than in Wisconsin....
Is there a tape anywhere of this Milan episode? Thanks.
This was a dry run. I see the destruction of a cathedral as the next step. That can be easily accomplished with 5,000 people, and it would take military action to stop a force of that size, which I don't see the Italian authorities as having the guts to authorize. If they do not respond with deadly force, the destruction of cathedrals and churches throughout Europe will begin in earnest shortly thereafter.
jeff in Chicag:
We were talking about the most populous MUSLIM countries. India may have a greater population of muslims, but it is not a muslim country. Malaysia is.
aynrandgirl
I think that is going a bit too far, but it is nevertheless a very serious political challenge. They are saying "Give us our mosque or there will be more of this."
So far as I know the European MSM has ignored it but a demonstration of that size and type has to be thought out and organized. This would be beyond the capacity of the average muslim immigrant, because in the UK last year a few of them just went to Westminster Catholic Cathedral with placards and shouted abuse.
I would like to know who was behind it because to me it is the kind of thing a multicultural liberal would think of.
Here's what you definitely don't wanna hear coming from any church bell towers.
(Prank done by Johannes Gees)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCB-ibyV4aw
jdamn,
Islam may be technically a non-religion in Italy, but they still have mosques in various cities, and the largest mosque in Europe is right smack dab in Rome. Plus, according to the article you linked, Islam is the 2nd biggest religion in Italy in terms of sheer numbers, even though it is not officially recognized.
And as we know, Muslims have been causing problems in Italy for years, and they are (as we see from this article here) getting worse.
So -- a lotta good it does not to "recognize" Islam as a religion.
Maybe I haven't read carefully enough, but I didn't see much in the comments from people living in, or who have lived in Italy.
Neither have I seen much ruckus in the press or even online about this. I suppose the Quisling mass media would suppress it. But online? I expected to see more.
aynrandgirl:
The jihad is a popular military movement. The "protesters" are the army and/or the support staff. Nearly everything they do is a dry-run to one degree or another. Especially as many of them are opportunistic fighters.
As a general rule the jihaddis can be counted on to go as far as they are permitted against the targets they perceive as accessible.
I think that things will certainly move in the direction you foresee. But the pace is unpredictable.
If you cruise the Serbian websites you will get a peek at what the mohammedans will do to institutional Christianity when they think they have a chance.
http://serbblog.blogspot.com/ is a fairly good place to start looking if you are curious.
But one has to remember that in Serbia the mohammedans had the explicit backing of the western ruling elites. Those same politicians are more ambivalent about such violence at home -- not passionately opposed mind you, but not quite as gung-ho as they were in Serbia.
Re. suitable responses to the Muslim threat display:
someone over on Atlas Shrugs - it was Person of the Book, who also posts here at times - had a good suggestion which could be done in conjunction with, or before or after, my own bellringing idea.
here it is.
"Bishop Ernesto Vecchi [of the diocese of Bologna, where the Muslims pulled their 'Muslim prayer / threat display' just as in Milan], or the priest of that church, should have set up loudspeakers and started preaching the gospel to the crowd.
THAT'S THE JOB OF THE CHURCH -- TO EVANGELIZE THE LOST.
If muslims have the gall to take over the church property and pray, then the church should preach to them, to tell them that Jesus will save them from their sins.
Why does the church never seem to do that?"
Posted by: PersonOfTheBook | Sunday, January 11, 2009 at 05:43 PM
It's a good suggestion - fit the churches and cathedrals with loudspeakers and then when the Muslim hordes appear, start reciting Scripture. Not aggressively, just with vigour and enjoyment.
One could select the best Gospel passages, or 1 Corinthians 13, or some of the lovelier Psalms. I am told that many Muslim 'seekers', when they do sus out the Christian scriptures, get hit right between the eyes when they come across the Sermon on the Mount: so include that one.
For even more fun, depending on which language is most commonly spoken among the Muslims in Italy, one could obtain audio recordings of Scripture being recited in, for example, Arabic and Turkish and Albanian; then, peacefully sitting in his study, as the Muslims are grovelling to their horrible war god in the Cathedral plaza, the Bishop plugs a suitable cd into the boom box, flicks the switch and turns on the sound to LOUD.
There are so many creative ways that the Italian Catholics could fight fire with fire.
They could broadcast a "Dean Martin Live in Las Vegas" CD. Loudly!
dumbledoresarmy:
A bit 10-4 on the church loudspeakers idea.
Perfect!
JihadWatch on SkyNews.
http://indepth.news.sky.com/InDepth/topic/Islam_And_Milan