Pictures taken by Jihad Watch reader Jennifer before the protest turned violent:
What's a "Jihah"?
The black flag of jihad
Leftist/Jihadist Alliance Alert
George Galloway, Jihad Watch's Dhimmi Internationale 2005, was there
Against Saudi's Abdullah, Egypt's Mubarak, and the PA's Abbas: the stance of hardline Islamic jihadists
The Left (and some who claim to be on the Right) cry "Hitler" so often, what will they do when a real one comes along?
More wolf-crying
Raymond emails to note that this sign says "British Muslim Initiative" in English, as well as the acronym BMI, but in the Arabic, all it says is "the Islamic Initiative," (al-mubadra al-islamiyya) not British Muslim Initiative, al-mubadra al-islamiyya al-britaniyya. Significance: to show sympathetic Brits and English speakers that Muslims think of themselves as "British" -- you know, "we are all one" -- while doing away with such infidel talk when addressing fellow Muslims in Arabic. In Arabic, it doesn't even just say "Muslim Initiative" minus "British," but rather "Islamic Initiative," giving it more "Islamist" overtones.
Yes, it is, pal, but not in the way you'd like us to believe
Boycott doubled letters
Calling on Muslims to unite against the U.S. -- isn't that "Islamophobia"?
Wants cages for Jews
Muslim Association of Britain was involved
So was MPACUK
The party starts to turn violent
The last picture above comes from Pamela, who has many more photos of violent protests worldwide, and also this video from London:
"Gaza protest ends in violence," from the Press Association, January 10 (thanks to Jennifer):
An anti-war demonstration has ended in violence as protesters clashed with riot police in London.The protest against Israel's attacks on Gaza saw one police officer knocked unconscious and two others receive facial injuries, a police spokesman said.
An initially peaceful demonstration ended with a group of protesters facing mounted riot police throwing missiles and smashing windows on Kensington High Street near the Israeli Embassy. Riot officers from the Metropolitan Police force charged at the group of mainly young men.
Sticks and barriers were hurled at the officers by the group, many of whom were masked.
About 300 police in full riot gear had surrounded a similar-sized group of protesters pushing them up the street. Three people were arrested, police said.
Of the three arrests, one man was held on suspicion of assaulting a police officer and another man was in custody on suspicion of aggravated trespass. The spokesman said they were awaiting details of the third arrest.
Police ensured a heavy presence at the demonstration after a similar protest in the capital last Saturday was also marred by confrontations.
The Metropolitan Police estimated 12,000 people joined in Britain's biggest pro-Palestine demonstration in London's Hyde Park before marching through the capital to the embassy, chanting "free, free Palestine"....
I saw this demonsration and didn't feel anything but hate to these people who support terror. I felt it as a jew, as an israeli citizen and as a guy who've spent some time on the Tzahal service.
No comments...
Posted on the previous thread, video of the violence in Londonistan.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sek9UCWczl8&eurl=http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2009/01/the-muslim-hord.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7821928.stm
From last week
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kp-lwSe2llg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iQyXXsBBQ0&feature=related
What an impressive buffet of idiots this is.......
Shades of the Weimar Republic when haters and ignoramuses abounded and the best were filled with doubt and timidity.
Europe is so f****d up.
This is interesting:
http://muqata.blogspot.com/
1:16 AM Received from Muqata Blog Reader in Germany, Sebastian M.
Today, 10.000 people demonstrated against Israel here in my hometown Duisburg (Germany) and to express their solidarity with Hamas. So, my girlfriend and me put two Israel flags out of the windows of our flat in the 3rd floor. During the demonstration which went through our street the police broke into our flat and removed the flag of Israel. The statement of the police was to de-escalate the situation, because many youth demonstrators were on the brink of breaking into our apartment house. Before this they threw snowballs, knifes and stones against our windows and the complete building. We both were standing on the other side of the street and were shocked by seeing a police officer standing in our bedroom and opening the window to get the flag. The picture illustrate this situation. The police acquiesced in the demands of the mob.
Go to the link check out the photo.
I went on the march this afternoon.
It felt weird to be surrounded by such a huge number of savages calling for the death of Jews.
Many of the conversations going on around me were of the nature of killing Jews.
I was right in the thick of it outside the Israeli embassy. All sorts of objects were thrown at the police lines, from shoes and signs to red dye (which went all over the protesters, me included, and not the police) and fireworks. A Muslim next to me threw a heavy metal object, and the metal barriers at the front were used as weapons. One guy even brought a hockey stick along and started to bash a couple of police shields before getting smashed in the face by one of the shields.
There were frequent surges and it took a lot of strength to stay upright.
There were quite a few Muslim girls in the crowd, something which didn't go down too well with some of the more hardcore Muslim males.
The award for funniest sign went to "LIVNI IS A TRANNY". Funniest moment was seeing a young jihadi wannabe getting hit in the face by one of the police. He can't have been older than 15 and his face was a picture as he staggered past, crying like a baby. Strangest moment was when a musician on stage said "we don't hate jews" and the crowd went completely silent. I knew as well as everyone there that every single genuine protester would kill all the Jews if it was possible.
I've been on plenty of marches, but the thing which was different about this one was the smell. I don't know if it's part of the culture in Muslim countries, but the Muslim men (or women) around me certainly didn't hold back on the farting. Fuck me, I've never smelt anything like it.
The main group there were the Muslims, made up of Hezbollah and Hamas supporters, followed by Socialist Workers and Marxists, plus some white aging English agitators who were trying to stir things up and encourage people to attack the police and break windows.
All in all it was quite a fun day, but the fact that this country has an enormous problem with Muslim terrorism supporters was made quite obvious.
Unfortunately I won't be around for the pro-Israel march tomorrow. I suspect that there will be violence if the opportunity presents itself to the Muslims who will undoubtably be present.
Just thought of a couple of other funnies: someone brought their black dog along, and surprise surprise there was quite an open space around it. Then the guy next to me shouted to his friend, "Muhammad!" and about a third of all the males within earshot turned round, thinking he was talking to them :)
All the non-Muslims will be next. They dont read. Hitler killed Christians, Jews, sick, gays, children at the urging on and suggestions of the Hussein Muslim and the Muslims in Bosnia.
Muslims are as dumb as the dumbest. Enslaved Jews wrote the Quran from Medina and they did it so that the world would know that Islam is a evil cult. The Talmud was reversed and only Jews would know what was in the Talmud written hundred of years before Muhammad was born. Jewish folktales, as the rabbis say, were put into the Quran to m ake fools of Muslims. It worked. When the Caliph found out it was too late, and the hatred of the Jews have intensified. First the Sunday People, then the Sunday People. Friday was the Sabeans holy day before Muhammad stole it. All one has to do is read before Muslims rewrite history. Bill Gates will be a Muslim, allow Muslims to say it. (smile) So was Satan! Satan is Allah Sura 3:54! Islam says Arabs are the best of Allah, yet Arabs have never invented one thing in the Arab world. THANK YOU, THE JEWISH PEOPLE FOR STANDING UP TO A VILE, SATANIC, KOOL-AID DRINKING CULT. I NEED A PORK CHOP!
All the non-Muslims will be next. They dont read. Hitler killed Christians, Jews, sick, gays, children at the urging on and suggestions of the Hussein Muslim and the Muslims in Bosnia.
Muslims are as dumb as the dumbest. Enslaved Jews wrote the Quran from Medina and they did it so that the world would know that Islam is a evil cult. The Talmud was reversed and only Jews would know what was in the Talmud written hundred of years before Muhammad was born. Jewish folktales, as the rabbis say, were put into the Quran to m ake fools of Muslims. It worked. When the Caliph found out it was too late, and the hatred of the Jews have intensified. First the Sunday People, then the Sunday People. Friday was the Sabeans holy day before Muhammad stole it. All one has to do is read before Muslims rewrite history. Bill Gates will be a Muslim, allow Muslims to say it. (smile) So was Satan! Satan is Allah Sura 3:54! Islam says Arabs are the best of Allah, yet Arabs have never invented one thing in the Arab world. THANK YOU, THE JEWISH PEOPLE FOR STANDING UP TO A VILE, SATANIC, KOOL-AID DRINKING CULT. I NEED A PORK CHOP! .GOD TOLD MOSES AND THE ISRAELITES not to eat pork, not me, THANK YOU GOD. MUSLIMS STOLE THAT LAW TOO.
Has the world gone mad? Does Annie Lenox and the rest feel that violence speaks for their supposed cause (even by association)? And what where these violent people going to do if they got into the embassy of Israel? Sit and talk? I fear the worst for the sanity of the world. It is bizarre that the left, and even communist factions support a group (hamas) who's ideology is completely contrary to their own initiatives? Please tell me that this is not going to get worse.
Daniro:
DITTO! (Though I am not a Jew but Christian)
About the YouTube video.
Who was shouting "Shame on you!"???
Great photos, Jennifer, which are worth a thousand words.
"ISLAM BE GONE"
That's what would be written on my sign.
This is what causes suicide bombers.
A initiation and indoctrination of children. A strict religious ideology that incites hate, and promotes violence and death This is the face of the next generation, and we need to remember who the real enemy is ( Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil- Thomas Mann)
It is bizarre that the left, and even communist factions support a group (hamas) who's ideology is completely contrary to their own initiatives?
Not bizarre , communists hate the western civilization , they want to destroy it because they believe it is decadant and "bourgeois". So they are more than willing to side with anyone including mohamedans to destroy us.
http://www.veoh.com/videos/v117837954BxYzwr
Will the UK be airing this now and finally doing some real talking and action?
RtL-Where are you? My fierce Scotman. You'd better be well prepared for tomorrow.
Have you decided on any slogan for a sign?
Muslims and their disgusting violent religion of Islam. What a bunch of barbarians and savages. Mohammedans are cowards, hateful, and murderous thugs. Their call sign for murder, destruction and animal behavior is ALLAH U AKBAR. What a bunch of assholes, and dumb idiots.
Peguy, unfortunately you make perfect sense, and they abuse this for their own PR. My family suffered in Iran, was wrongly imprisoned, and my uncle had all of his business, and belongings taken by the state, and eventually died as a result of his prison time. It seems the west is so removed from pain, from even the slightest infringement that they have no concept of what deprivation of freedom means. I fear that this will lead to more legitimacy of this Jihad cause. The question should be is there a way to actually stop this course and how?
These stupid non-Muslim British dupes out demonstrating essentially for Hamas disgust me. Hamas probably would, if they could, explode large bombs in London and Palestinians would dance in the street over it. But these naive tender hearts think the world would be better if Israel would stop trying to destroy Hamas because it costs some innocent lives Hamas is deliberately hiding among.
They can't say to themselves, "Wait, Hamas is a terror organization of psychopaths & religious-fanatic killers; now that Israel has attacked in self-defense it would be better if they continue until they're out of business."
Here's a thought: Get the f*** out of the West and go "solve" the problems in your supposed "home" countries. Why do they hide in the West and parade their so-called problems from afar?
OT: Now that college football is over, I am finally able educate myself for the next 8 months (like I do every year.) Check out the book titled "End Of Faith" by Sam Harris. It's critical of organized religion and the problems today related to faith. As a Catholic (albeit a bad one), I take absolutely no offense to his narrative/discourse on the subject. And in all actuality, I think most with a sane mind will feel the same way.
You can get the book here: http://www.amazon.com/End-Faith-Religion-Terror-Future/dp/0393327655/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1231637230&sr=8-2
P.S. Harris provides the same critique to Evangelical Christianity, Judaism, Islam, and Catholicism. It's a fair analysis. I strongly recommend it.
P.P.S. He tears the sh*t out of Islam. LOL
From the posting by 'fluffy' above (who seemingly attended, undercover, a pro-Jihad rally in order to observe and report):
"someone {one must presume, a non-Muslim dhimmi who isn't quite up on Muslim Rule yet - dda} brought their black dog along, and surprise surprise there was quite an open space around it."
Nota bene, everyone in Europe, the USA and Australia, Canada, anywhere, who is planning to attend a pro-Israel anti-Jihad rally that may quite possibly be confronted by the jihadists - if you have a large and very-well-trained dog, especially a black one, and it is used to crowds and not fazed by noise and strangers, take it along with you! (Under leash and with muzzle, whatever the local laws are for walking dogs in public). The bigger and blacker it is, the better. Psy-ops.
Just saw the video and my first thought was:
"Well, I don't like Starbucks either, but you won't see me go to THAT extreme..(lol)"
But isn't it pretty pathetic that I have come to see the violence over in the E.U. as the norm for the jihadists? At this rate, I'll be totally desensitized by the time the wave of islamic violent rioting hits the States. And you know, we're always about a month behind Europe in real world time. Americans are slow to wake up and smell the coffee.
Well, it's just about time to break out the old sparkey stick and shine her up. I am in San Diego, near little Mogadishu, and Wal-mart is right up the street so...
Somebody asked about the person shouting "Shame on you." I think it was some islamist screaming at the Starbucks since it is an American corporation. (and you know, coffee was an invention of those camel dung-eating Arabs, so it's a traitor to islam.)
About 15-30 seconds into the video you can hear someone shout "Pigs and Monkeys". Where they shouting "Stupid Jew, Shame on you?"
This video made me think of Krystallnacht.
I think Europe needs to choose between the Jews and the Muslims. I think in a generation Jews will be in grave danger in Europe unless the Muslims are forced out.
There is something profoundly spiritually evil about Europe that they would again place the Jews in peril, especially since there was widespread European complicity in the Holocaust.
In the end, I believe that it will be North, Central, and South America which will welcome the Jews from Europe. We Catholics have come to a new understanding of our responsibility to the Jews and I believe will come through for them.
"The question should be is there a way to actually stop this course and how?"
We need to re discover our culture , to teach kids to love the western civilization and its values ; to stop with this rotten ideology of multiculturalism that allows different system of values to exist and thus destroys social cohesion.
but all this is easier said than done. When moral and cultural relativism is dominant there is nothing much one can do. I think in the near time criticizing islam and some modern dogmas (multiculturalism, relativism) is going to be harder
Good post fluffy.
Lorfalcon, don't worry about me later on today. I have a strong feeling that their will be trouble but I'll be next to any youngsters as the first line of defence and trust me, if any Jihadis, Socialists or Marxists even think of jumping me, I'll knock them into the next millennium.
This is going to turn violent, I have a strong feeling about it, but I have to be there to show not just support for Israel but to make a statement that we will not be bullied by anyone.
Islam knows what it's doing. It's growing, it's getting brave, it has the protection of the Liberals, the left and the establishments, but I believe that will change one day. When that day comes, the Muslims in the UK will experience what they've been dishing out to the West. The UK won't be a very happy place for them to live and it will be a case of integrate and quick or else get out of the country.
The British people are waking up. It really is only a small minority of people who align themselves with the Left and Islam, although the demonstrations say otherwise.
The bottom line is that people in Britain really don't protest. All the protests we see are in the big cities and nowhere else really. Islam is brave in the big cities but nowhere else.
Change will come in the UK, I know it and I hate to say it but for Islam, if I were any of them, I'd be planning where to live before the civil war starts.
Instructive for understanding how Hitler came to power. Seems the world never learns, refuses to study the lessons of history and thus is destined to endlessly fulfill Santayana's warning that those who ignore the past are condemned to repeat it. As for Annie Lenox, she could be the poster girl for all that is wrong and shallow in modern pop culture, the entire corpus of which has less wisdom in it than any single one of Beethoven's symphonies. Lastly, long live Israel, a brave and noble nation surrounded by barbarism.
Something that stood out from the newspaper report (I clicked on the link and there was a bit more at the end about the pro-Jihad rally/ riot in Edinburgh):
the police are being attacked and hurt by the jihadi thugs.
In London:
"The protest against Israel's attacks on Gaza saw one police officer knocked unconscious and two others receive facial injuries, a police spokesman said"
and in Edinburgh:
"In Edinburgh, three officers were injured after being attacked by a group of 60 protesters outside the US Consulate."
This is very, very bad.
If even one more police officer is attacked and injured by pro-Jihad 'demonstrators' (tr: rioters) in any kafir country, it should be cause to call out the army and respond with overwhelming force.
I would also advise the police at every riot to bring dogs - big black police Alsations.
Further thought - the article mentioned that "sticks and barriers were hurled at the [police] officers by the group, many of whom were masked". Note that - 'many of whom were masked'.
To conceal one's identity, exactly like a bandit or a burglar, and at the same time to engage in, or call for, acts of violence, is a flagrant breach of civility. It suggests that the person a. intends no good and b. intends to avoid being identifiable after getting up to no good (i.e. bash a police officer, smash a window, then stroll away, remove mask and 'disappear'.
If I were in charge of the Metropolitan police, orders would be given that any person Muslim or non-Muslim seen wearing a full-face mask (and that should include Muslim women wearing full face veil, the burqa/ niqab) whilst engaging in, or calling for, outright violence (e.g. throwing a stick, shoe, stone or other object at a police officer or at the pro-Israel crowd, or damaging items of public and private property, or yelling slogans such as 'Kill the Jews!'), to be arrested on the spot, stripped of their mask, photographed, fingerprinted, and subjected to a complete body search and ID check.
And, just for fun, take a leaf out of Bratton's book and have facilities set up so that information thus gathered can be cross-checked against the 'criminal database'.
Grab 'em, turn 'em upside down and shake them - see what falls out of their pockets.
Ideally, of course, the organisers of the march would be told by the Authorities that NO MASKS are permitted to be worn by any participants; if they cannot guarantee that all participants' faces will be visible, permission for the march to take place will simply not be granted. The warning would also be given that if the organisers agreed to this but then broke the agreement by allowing march participants (Muslimahs, wannabe jihadi assassins) to cover their faces completely, all such people would be seized and their face-coverings removed before they were permitted to go a step further.
If you're hiding your face from the police and from the general public, it means you have something to hide and may be presumed to be Up To No Good.
Richard the Lionheart: I detect some rays of optimism in your thinking. Good. Half the road to victory is believing you can be victorious. Hope you're well and may Great Britain be great again.
Sadly, even after the London and Madrid attacks the European elite continue to believe in multiculturalism. Yet, the midnight hour is here in Europe with the world economy collapsing. As unemployment increases it lead to greater ethnic conflict in the cities. i fear that urban warfare, slaughter will be Europe's future. Geert Wilders, Danish cartoonists, Theo van Gough were the canaries in the coal mines
Posted by: km at January 10, 2009 8:06 PM
After checking the site, and seeing the photo, all I can say is that the West has gone friggin' nuts. It really is time to let this jihadi war commence for real, and stop all this bend-over and take it up the @ss without vaseline multi-culti suicide we are being forced to accept. "De-escalate the situation?" How do we de-escalate 1400 years of jihad? By not criticizing them? By removing our Israeli flags? By removing Israel? These are truly scary times.
Forgot to add: Hopefully someday, we will be allowed to look back on this current madness and question how we allowed it to happen -- all over again. The barabarians really are inside the gates. And living on our dime, too.
yes the barbarians and the traitors are working freely, using democracy and freedom of speech to overthrow our culture and impose sharia. This is worse than the fall of the Roman Empire.
Don't today's lefties know that Stalin supported the creation of the State of Israel?
Really, all this is pretty tame stuff so far. I've seen worse in Europe by farmers protesting new agricultural rules, and by soccer fans agonizing over a defeat (or maybe they were celebrating a victory?) The riots in L.A. over the police using excessive force to subdue a man resisting arrest were worse by a couple of orders of magnitude.
Whatever happened to the Jewish media monopoly?
The coverage of this military action against Gaza has been mind blowing, as in very pro-Moslem.
* 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 *
For that matter, whatever happened to the International Jewish Conspiracy? Hell, if there's an IJC afoot then the big conspiracy the Jews are running is to suffer a thermonuclear moment (of the Jihadi kind) and lose Israel.
Whatever happened to the Jewish media monopoly?
The coverage of this military action against Gaza has been mind blowing, as in very pro-Moslem.
* 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 *
For that matter, whatever happened to the International Jewish Conspiracy? Hell, if there's an IJC afoot then the big conspiracy the Jews are running is to suffer a thermonuclear moment (of the Jihadi kind) and lose Israel.
Are these the same Muslims in the UK that denied the Moques were teaching hatred and Jihad?
Where were these yahoos when the Subway attacks murdered civilains?
They protest at the slight hint of offending Islam by a harmless cartoon , but when other Muslims slaughter Muslims or slaughter non-Muslim civilains they stay mute while playing the victim of Islamophobia.
Last week there were thousands of Pro-Hamas Muslims in Toronto that yelled death threats at Canadian civilains and they yelled other death threats to those supporting israel , the Police held back the Muslims and told canadians to leave the area because they couldn't assure their safety.
Today , a Muslim was interviewed at another Pro-hamas rally in Toronto and he said that the Anti-Hams rallies are small because canadians don't agree with that view on Gaza.
Wait a minute.....Muslim flock in masses and make death threats to Canadians right on our Streets as the Police provide security for them and fear arresting anyone for a hate-Crime , then...a week later a Muslims uses the Psychologial terrorism to assert that the small Anti-Hamas crowds show that canada support hamas.
Typical islamist thugs , they create a fear of opposing them by actual riots and violence and threats.....then wait until the opposers get smaller from the fear of being attacked in public while the Police do squat , Ans THEN claim that their side is right because few people show up to oppose them.
Just try showing up with a Muhammad cartoon to see if theses rallies have nothing to do with Islam , you may beheaded as the nuetered POlice watch for fear of causing more violence.
Sounds like Muhammad all right , violent misogynist pedophile that blamed the victim for offending him .
"Just try showing up with a Muhammad cartoon to see if theses rallies have nothing to do with Islam , you may beheaded as the nuetered POlice watch for fear of causing more violence."
Also for the media , a star of david next to a svastika is fine, anti-semitic slogans is freedom of speech, but a mohammad cartoon ... that's intolerable islamophobia ! This double standard is utterly digusting
The Palestinians already have a state, it's called Jordan. Palestinian Facts:
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_faq_palestine_whynostate.php
Everything that they are shouting at these rallies is rubbish.
As usual, the left-wing has give ANOTHER ringing endorsment of hamas.
Just my 2 cents> England get this crap out of your country.
Slightly OT, but hoping to deflect some of the rage I feel reading these articles I put on a few pieces of my favorite classical music. After listening to Itzhak Perlman's beautifully rendered Mendelssohn Violin Concerto, I put on Olivier Messiaen's Quartet for the End of Time - and suddenly found my eyes tearing up. Messiaen composed this piece in a Nazi prison camp in 1940/1941. Although somewhat atonal, the mood of the music fits the circumstances perfectly. In many ways, it is evocative of Shostakovitch's Seventh Symphony, which was composed in Leningrad during the Nazi siege in 1941. Both reminded me of the stark differences between civilized and Fascist societies. The first understands and finds beauty in art, and the second, where I would include Islam as a Fascist ideology, sees music only as evil or to be used as a tool to dominate.
If I had to name a single thing that best distinguishes Western civilization from every other civilization that has ever existed in history, it is the glories of our classical music. Nothing anywhere, nothing, comes close to it, and cultural relativists be damned if they claim otherwise. It is valued by both Jews and Christians (indeed, all civilized people everywhere) and is one of the many things that bind us together. Muslims, however, are either all tone deaf or are too caught up in their hatreds to understand or appreciate this. I note there is no Saudi National Symphony, or a Riyadh Opera House. Both exist in every civilized country of the world. No music in mosques - what can one say about the contrast between this and the glorious pipe organ/choral music in Christian churches? But if Islam ever holds sway in the world, this would surely be suppressed, as it has by the Taliban, along with other forms of art valued by civilized nations.
Any Muslims (Mo?) reading this care to comment on Western music? Would you ban this, too, (and ringing of bells!) along with other forms of art, if your Islamic sensitivities and precious "feelings" are hurt?
km wrote, citing another blog:
1:16 AM Received from Muqata Blog Reader in Germany, Sebastian M.
Today, 10.000 people demonstrated against Israel here in my hometown Duisburg (Germany) and to express their solidarity with Hamas. So, my girlfriend and me put two Israel flags out of the windows of our flat in the 3rd floor. During the demonstration which went through our street the police broke into our flat and removed the flag of Israel. The statement of the police was to de-escalate the situation, because many youth demonstrators were on the brink of breaking into our apartment house. Before this they threw snowballs, knifes and stones against our windows and the complete building. We both were standing on the other side of the street and were shocked by seeing a police officer standing in our bedroom and opening the window to get the flag. The picture illustrate this situation. The police acquiesced in the demands of the mob.
............................
There was a similar situation at a pro-Jihad demonstration in San Francisco a few days ago. When a small band of pro-Israel demonstrators showed up with Israeli flags, the police immediately hustled them into the foyer of a nearby building--preventing them from lawfully demonstrating--this "for their own safety".
I'm not necessarily blaming the police, but the reality is that--intentionally or not--they are enabling the violent pro-Jihad protesters, and allowing them to stifle the freedom of speech of peaceful counter-protesters.
As another poster on one of the protest threads (can't remember who, now) recounted, the police were fully aware of where the potential for violence lay--they unconcernedly turned their backs on the pro-Israel protesters, but kept a close eye on the pro-Jihadists.
I always wonder how people can twist the meaning of what tolerance is. Esmail cited Th. Mann as saying; " Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil "
Coming from a manufacturing background tolerance expresses the deviations from the data that are permissible, so that if you want a certain fit or function you have to express that in tolerance ranges, this is an efficiency that engineers use to manufacture a quality part that will perform its function. For instance if you need to have a 93% tapped thread you would call for a certain range of pilot holes to make the part to function as planned.
So it also is in society, we need to have tolerances, to function efficiently, a speed limit may be 35 so there usually is a tolerance that police will allow an auto to go 5 over. Some states do not have a tolerance as far as going over the speed limit, but they will have a tolerance for going under the speed limit. Otherwise only a motorist who is going exactly 35 would escape a ticket, and automibles can vary in what their speedometers read, for instance my ford reads about 2 mph under the actual speed while my wifes caddy is right on.
It seems to me that most people who use the word tolerance do not mean the setting of limits of variation but no limits at all.
I think having no limits is destructive of society, of trust in law and of other members of society. So I support tolerance but not the orwellian meaning of tolerance as tolerating anything.
Often times when you hear some politician calling for zero tolerance, it is better to read it as calling for zero common sense.
We made a big mistake.
Muslims in London are stupid - they are looting candy from Starbuck they just vandalized.
Newflash: Starbucks is insured by British insurance companies who will ultmately pay the price.
Any terrorism acts by muslims in London are perfectly legal so lone UK does not ban the terrorist manuals that cause muslims to behave like animals.
Don't blame the muslims for their actions until you are ready to ban the muslim terrorist manuals aka quran or koran that are commanding them to carry out these attacks.
As long as these Terrorist manuals are not banned you cannot ban the actions by the followers who read and follow what is in these manuals. For example, since bombs are illegal to possess in the west by civilians, the manuals to make bombs are also banned and illegal.
Imagine if the manuals for making bombs were openly legal, could you prohibit someone from experimenting with bomb making?
Here we have double standards. Every terrorist act is condoned by the quran or koran (islam) if it is carried against the Infidels (any and all non muslims). Why do we ban bomb making manuals and we do not ban these terrorist manuals used to kill people?
Solution: Ban these Terrorist manuals quran or koran and the world will be a better place
These people are thier own worst enemy. As Hamas is under attack, and Israel is at this time dropping flyers into Gaza warning of the new attacks that are comming, the actions of these in London hurts the cause.
They will find out why if this continues.
stickman:
When it comes to Moral deviations we have seen all those small changes as if nothing would result from it.
But here's my example of a future crisis.
When we landed on the Moon it was easy to hit it with a rocket because we could see it from Earth, BUT,if we are flying to Pluto and someone boasts about how the course is only off by 1/10'000th of an inch that means that the ship deviates 1.0" for every 10'000 going forward.
After close to 3 billion miles and years of travel you get to the edge of Plutos orbital plane but there is no planet , Pluto was moving while you were moving but you went off course against the direction of Pluto where it WAS 8 months ago.
When society changes course by a slight amount,
we won't see the full effect until one day when Pluto isn't where it should have been .
Except pluto may be the moral-crime of "Murder" where it isn't that bad one day because the killer was a minority or single mom that killed from a systemic racism or bias against the poor.
Hillary showed all females that Monica has no free-will or power to control her moral standard , and in turn she herself lowered her standards for females by showing her Daughter that her dad is a pig but she must stand by her man and allow this behavior as a good wife.
Those Islamic Protesters are nothing more then mere Savages when confronted about their beliefs, will do whatever it takes to destroy Western Civilization, and right now in Europe, the violence has risen quite a bit, and now in the US, they are beginning to act out vilently with words and in particular what happen in Florida with those Islamic protesters stating that they desire all Jews to be killed, in the same manner of how the Nazis Germans did to them in the Holocaust. I just hope that Europe will realize this soon before it is too late.
Starbucks was likely targeted for two reasons:
1. Because it is an American symbol
but more likely......
2. Many UK groups have been calling for a boycott of Starbucks (for one example see www.inminds.com) because it is run by a Jew and considered a Zionist organization.
I hope the police have some footage from this that can prove it was targeted because of its ties with Jews and charge them with a hate crime. Ah but that would be in a dream world.
...to the placard carrier of 'Boycot Israeli and American product'
Does this include the tons of aid given to Islamic countries who are incapable of feeding themselves. Palestine alone will swallow 7.7 million USD of aid over the next two years.
I fear the worst for the pro-Israeli demo in the Trafalgar Square today and blood could flow. Whose blood is spilt is down to the police but I pray that all Jews and their supporters will be safe.
3 Arrests????
The police were a damned sight more forceful when dealing with the mainly white middle class protestors of the Countryside Alliance a few years ago.
fluffy:
What you smelled COULD have been farting, but more likely it was the fact that muslims don't use toilet paper, they wipe themselves with their hand and then rinse with water. No soap involved.
They also don't shower often.
Once again a massive turnout. It is awe-inspiring to see so many different types of people out together in force to show their outrage at Israel's brutal actions in Gaza.
Those protesters have right to speak out against israels actions in Gaza but i dont agree with the violence and throwing stuff at police they should be more peaceful.
I can understand the Anger of those protesters people are being massacred as we speak somebody has to speak out against.
I am proud to live in a great city like London where People can speak out and protest
Maria. We have now got the gist of you. You are an accomplice to evil. That makes you evil. Why the hell don't you speak out against the cruel treatment meted out on the so-called Palestinians by Hamas? But then again, that doesn't matter to you. You are a diseased and poisoned person. My grandfather and his generation fought to keep Britain free of persecution between 1939-45. You are aiding and abetting the sort of scum which he and his ilk fought against. Only that this scum would delight in lopping off our heads, just as Hamas lops off heads in the Gaza Strip on trumped up charges. You are poison - the sort that is killing the West. We don't want you and your sort festering off us here in Britain. We want you out of our country, and the sooner, the better, because that is the only way to keep us a free people.
You do not see this in the news in the rest of Europe. Not in France, not in Germany, not in the Netherlands. They try to keep this silent, afraid that Europeans will stand up one day.
I spoke with an American intelligence officer who told me that they expect a small 'civil war' when things are really going to escalate.
Something else from the march:
Amongst the groups there, people did show a diversity of opinion.
At least some of the useful idiot indigenous English protesters weren't anti-Jewish. For these people, it was Israel which bothered them, not Jewish people in general. Either that, or they were politically correct enough not to admit that they hated Jews.
As for the Muslims though, this wasn't about Israel; it was about Jews. Nearly all the comments I heard whilst walking were derogatory towards the Jews, and often genocidal in nature. Walking down Kensington Church Street, there was a large group of young jihadi-wannabes next to me who were talking about how they would like to kill all Jews, and for a while they were actually trying to *spot* Jewish passers-by so that they could attack them. If we'd have been in Golders Green then they could have taken their pick, because many Jewish people up there identify themselves by their dress (the black hats and clothes and the curls), but in Kensington I don't think I've ever seen anyone who is "obviously Jewish", apart from those who wear the yarmulke, which can be whipped off in a second anyway at the first sign of a 20,000 crowd of young mujahidin bent on violence and genocide.
I know from having been interested in Islam and the jihad since 9/11 that Jews are under threat, but now that I've seen it for myself, I find it quite worrying.
I have no more respect for Jewish people than any other group really. I know lots of Jewish people (mostly cultural Jews) and have done business with many also (mostly religious Jews) and I find them to be rather pleasent people; civilised and polite and pretty much up for having a good time, getting on with life, having a family and not intefering with the lives of others. So, I don't think that Jewish people should be protected *because* they are Jewish; rather because they don't deserve to be attacked, just as people do not deserve to be attacked because they are black, white or gay.
So, something which this protest confirmed to me is that although I am an atheist, I'd be willing to suffer hardship and worse to help these Jews avoid pogrom or extermination. I like having them around and they don't deserve to suffer. I suppose I have the Muslim barbarians of Kensington to thank for teaching me that.
And far, far more forceful still when dealing with striking miners back in 1984-85. Of course, those miners were regarded as scum by the people of Britain but no miner wanted to force Sharia law down our throats.
Posted by: Spirit Of 1683
We don't want you and your sort festering off us here in Britain. We want you out of our country, and the sooner, the better, because that is the only way to keep us a free people.
a other bigoted moron i bet you want all muslims out of the UK to your nothing by facist scum thankfully people like you are a minority in the UK
Daniro:
I understand how you feel. It is so difficult to look at them with anything other than disgust.
Having lived through the second world war, I never imagined I would see a Mohammadan rabble on the streets of England.
Maria, you might be 'proud' to live in London, but London should be ashamed of having you and your ilk as citizens.
Sorry folks! But I really have had it with these people.
Mohammad, my questions?
I think you just answered all 22 of them with that one sentence anyway.
Mariastan, my questions?
Maria,
To quote you:
I have to say that you may think this is fantastic, but how does it feel to know that you are marching side by side with your assassins?
Islam is in the UK to destroy it. It is here to grow and then to implement its culture over our own, has this never dawned upon you?
Since its creation back in the 7th Century, Islam has waged war all over the World. It invaded the West with the mighty Ottoman Empire and controlled much of Europe, until it was driven from our shores. It realised a long time ago that Europe will not be beaten front on. It then implemented Antonio Gramsci's(A Marxist theorist) hegemony into their plan of attack to control the West. I suggest you read up on Gramsci's theory, but in a nutshell, it means the taking over of all major establishments in one country. It means to take over the Government, the Education system, the Law and Order system and the Police system. By placing people in positions of power within those establishments you can now destroy it from within.
I call Gramsci's theory the Hawk Wasp theory in that a Hawk wasp lays its egg in a live insect, which hatches and eats its way out using the insect as it's home and food, until it develops into another hawk Wasp with which to continue this cycle.
You are seriously misled by the Left. It controls the media, it controls the education system as well as the Police and Judiciary. They are brainwashing society into hating themselves and being British. They are making people believe that we British were terrible people and deserve what is happening to us. They are in fact making us destroy ourselves and our culture. It has been a slow deceit. Immigrants from countries all around the world have come here not to integrate but to destroy it. They have managed to gain positions of power, even though they are anti British.
The thing is Maria, you may think that Israel are doing wrong, but tell me, how would you feel if you were an Israeli, and every single Muslim around you wanted your destruction? Seven year the Israeli people put up with Hamas launching rackets at them and did they retaliate like any other country would? What do you think England would do if France acted like Hamas?
It has shown remarkable restraint in lasting this long. The walls surrounding Israel are not there to keep people from leaving but from suicide bombers killing.
I'm so angry at people like you because you live constantly in the dark yet think you can see so clearly. You are fed a daily diet of left wing pro Islamic propaganda and you lap it up like a hungry child, not even thinking of questioning what is actually happening.
I was on the March today Sunday 11th January in Trafalgar Square and I was proud to stand next to London's Jewish community, terrified, just for being Jewish. It was my duty as a Brit, as a Scotsman, to uphold the integrity, at least some people in this world know the British people to have. There were about 20k there, is was packed and although a bit chilly there was a good atmosphere.
Are you completely ignorant to not see that Israel is defending itself? Do you not realise that the left wing media here is blowing all the deaths out of proportion, or should I say is being dishonest in reporting that all the casualties are innocents when that is far from the case?
Are you so blind to not see that this war is not just Israel's but the freedom loving people of the West? Their war is a war against genocide and Islamic domination of the World.
To finish off, I am really sickened by people like you. I'll tell you why. You are the type of person that would eat meat but when it comes to killing, gutting and skinning it you turn your nose up at it and say it's cruel. You're the type of person that preaches continuously of peace and love and yet are blatantly ignorant to see that those you ally with want the exact opposite. You are one of those people who no doubt thought the extermination of the Jews in WW2 was abominable, yet you'll march with the very people, who have a copy of Mein Kampf in their back pocket. You will fight for equal rights and female emancipation yet march with the people who would make you wear a long black robe and beat you should you laugh in the street or show any flesh. You will constantly moan on about not judging a person because of their sexuality, fighting for gay rights, yet you'll march with the very people who will hang them at given opportunity. You will march alongside the likes of Galloway and Livingstone, whom shook the hand of Saddam Hussein and congratulated him and welcomed Sheikh Qaradawi into London respectively. You are the epitome of hypocrisy and you are a danger to the UK along with the very people you support.
It's a real pity that Australia wasn't a prison colony, for had you been alive 100 years ago you'd have been on that ship or hanging from the gallows for treason.
Maria, do not expect congratulations here for what you've done. Do not even think that we are Nazis or bigots or fascists. In fact you, unbeknownst, could very well fit the descriptions of all three.
You also fail to realise that when civil war comes in the UK, you'd be wise to choose your side very carefully. Those on the losing side, will face untold persecution and very possibly treason, punishable by death(this will be instituted). I suggest you really start educating yourself instead of following with the 'in' crowd as they worship false idols that will end in their destruction. You are so blind in missing the very thing that makes Britain what it is and you've just allied with the enemy. The ignorance of youth(well I truly hope that you are one).
Any Muslims (Mo?) reading this care to comment on Western music?
Posted by: Eastview
Eastview, I'm not Moslem, but here's my (actually John Dryden's) comment:
"Music, the greatest good that mortals know,
And all of Heaven we have below."
RtL,
So glad you made it to the Trafalgar Square March this morning. I thought about you all, together with our Jewish friends. God bless you for taking a stand!
Sencit,
It was my pleasure. It was a really friendly atmosphere. I wrote a long reply to Wellington just now but unfortunately I got the Blue Screen of Death(again) and lost the post. I now have to go and fix my computer and find out why it is going into 'death' mode.
Unfortunately the day wasn't without negativity. I slipped on the ice coming out the house this morning and landed on my camera and cracked the lens. The pictures I was hoping to send to Robert never happened. :(
RtL, you're operating on a couple of false assumptions:
1) That Mariastan reads, which she clearly does not, as one can readily see from her writing. She's still working her way through 'See Spot Run.'
2) That she's who she says she is and not a Mohammedan, narcissistic, Nazi troll. She has the audacity to claim to be a Christian whose family was driven out of Turkey by Islamofascism, and yet, she invariably takes the side of those who are out to exterminate Christians and Jews and can't disparage any and all efforts stop Christian and Jewish genocide enough.
Also, 300 of those killed in Gaza were terrorists.
Posted by: Richard the Lionheart
Since its creation back in the 7th Century, Islam has waged war all over the World. It invaded the West with the mighty Ottoman Empire and controlled much of Europe, until it was driven from our shores.
The ottoman Empire did invade the West it invaded Greece and Eastern Europe and the middle east and those countries fought back against the barbaric Turks but today the West is Turkeys allie just like Isreal and the Zionist in the US goverment are pressing for Turkey to Join the EU why is that?
Posted by: Richard the Lionheart
You are one of those people who no doubt thought the extermination of the Jews in WW2 was abominable, yet you'll march with the very people, who have a copy of Mein Kampf in their back pocket
More christians where killed in ww2 then jews why did you not say extermination of christians and jews? i will never march with anyone who supports Nazis or hitler they can all go to hell as far as i am concered. But you sound just like a Nazi talking about how people like me should be deported for having a different apinion hitler also killed his political opponants.
Posted by: Richard the Lionheart
You will march alongside the likes of Galloway and Livingstone, whom shook the hand of Saddam Hussein.
Donald rumsfield has also shook the hand of saddamn Hussein i seen the picture.
By the way one more thing Richard the Lion heart was a Terrorist himself who as well as killing muslims in the middle East also killed Jews and Eastern Orthodox Christians during the barbaric crusades
jdamn,
I cannot say what Maria is(yet), but she may just very well be one of Blair's educational failures as his generation of school children are the most illiterate of all.
She may very well be Mohammedan, we will wait and see.
Maria,
No the West is not Turkey's ally. The people don't trust them but the media controlled by the government is telling us too. Just because they have kebab shops over in the Uk doesn't mean they're our friends. Turkey may be the most democratic of Islamic nations but it doesn't fool me. Recep Tayyip Erdogan is an Islamist and why on earth would the Turkish people vote in an Islamist party? Also Israel and the USA have nothing to do with Europe and who should join or not. I will say one thing that the thought of Turkey joining the EU, the first Islamic nation to do so and the flooding of 20 million Muslims into Europe(most heading for London) is a dire thought. Also, it is the gateway to the Middle East and those terrorists will simply come into Turkey and straight into the EU freely. Madness. We are not about to let Turkey in. Don't believe everything you read in the papers.
Unfortunatley you have marched with Nazis. That't the problem that you are too stupid to realise you didn't. Where are you from as your English is abysmal. Are you the same Maria that posts on Peter Hitchens' column? Maybe you should do some research on the people whom you'll be joining on your marches. If you are unsure then have a look at the photos on this thread to see many Nazi organisations who were with you on your march.
I'm not talking of Rumsfield as he has nothing to do with the UK and the pro Palestine march yesterday you were on. However Galloway and Livingstone were there.
oh shut up, you're scraping the barrel now and failing badly. Richard the Lionheart fought in the crusades against the Islamic hordes hell bent islamising the world hence why I chose his name.
I'm beginning to wonder where you're from. You are not English and if you were a Christian you would not be marching with Nazis as you were yesterday.
Jesus, Maria you really are thick aren't you?
Eastview,
That kind of music is absolutely forbidden to Muslims. The devil hates all the beautiful expressions of life like Music & Dance, which is why, naturally, fine music & dance are forbidden by Sharia:
r40.0 MUSIC, SONG, AND DANCE
MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS
r40.1 (Ibn Hajar Haytami:) As for the condemnation of musical instruments, flutes, strings and the like by the Truthful and Trustworthy (Allah bless him and give him peace), who
“does not speak from personal caprice: it is nothing besides a revelation inspired” (Koran 53:3-4),
let those who refuse to obey him beware lest calamity strike them, or a painful torment. The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said:
(1) “Allah Mighty and Majestic sent me as a guidance and mercy to believers and commanded me to do away with musical instruments, flutes, strings, crucifixes, and the affair of the pre-Islamic period of ignorance.”
(2) “On the Day of Resurrection, Allah will pour molten lead into the ears of whoever sits listening to a songstress.”
http://boston.indymedia.org/newswire/display_any/21475
Posted by: Richard the Lionheart
I'm beginning to wonder where you're from. You are not English and if you were a Christian you would not be marching with Nazis as you were yesterday.
I am not English but I was born in England I am British and before you say it no i am not muslim
Yesterday I did not go on any marches you idiot you misread what i said all i said was its cool that people where protesting and speaking out i cant help but think your a racist why did you say to me I am not english so what if i am not english what you going to do about ir tell me to go back where my parents came from you racist.
"The Left (and some who claim to be on the Right) cry "Hitler" so often, what will they do when a real one comes along?"
Hitler was a Leftist:
http://constitutionalistnc.tripod.com/hitler-leftist/id9.html
Maria,
And how do you come about with that then? Being British means you are either English, Scottish, Northern Irish or Welsh. From then one chooses whether they are happy to be part of the Union of the Four Nations or not.
Being British does not mean that you are born in Britain. Being British means loyalty to the crown and your fellow countrymen. It means to forever defend the land against all those who would destroy it and implement their culture upon it(an alien one).
So as for you saying you were born in England, yet you are not English but are British, unfortunately shows the state of a portion of today's inhabitants of the UK. You are not British. You are merely an inhabitant of Great Britain. As Norman Tebbit poignantly stated "A Nation of foreigners who hold British passports.
You may not have been on the March but if you allow these Nazis and yes many of them on the March are indeed Nazis to have freedom of speech with which to promote their vile hatred of Jewish people, you are no better than them.
And last but not least, my ancestry in within the UK goes back to the Picts of Caledonia as well as from every Nation that makes up the United Kingdom.
Where is your ancestry from? You write like an illiterate and think like a moron. Your views are also despicable in that you continue to throw around the word racist at people yet it seems you have no understanding of what the actual word means.
You support these people because you loathe the fact that Israel defend itself but should instead lie down and allow Islam to destroy it.
You are stupid. You are most definitely not British. You are simply someone who lives in the UK that will be quite happy to denounce true British people and call them racist but when you're abroad and get in trouble you'll happily hide behind your British passport.
You are one of the new breed of 'plastic' British.
You can be compared to a person singing a karaoke song from a famous musician - You'll never sound like them, you'll never think like them, you'll never write songs like them and you'll never ever be them. You will never be the real deal meaning you ain't British as you haven't a clue what Britishness is.
And who is behaving like the fascists of old? Of course, it is Galloway, your traitorous hero, and his fellow lunatics who spit out their vicious antisemitism at every opportunity. Because you side with those loathsome creatures, that makes you loathsome by default. And we know that your ilk deride real patriots as bigots, and if being a patriot and wanting to see a free West means that I'm a bigot, then so be it. I'll wear my bigot's tag as a badge of honour. You wouldn't know patriotism if it bit you on the backside, and, unlike you, I appreciate the sacrifices our grandparents made to keep us free from Nazi rule, and your lot would surrender us over to the Islamonazis in a heartbeat. Public beheadings, stonings and amputations - the delights of Sharia, would end up being forced upon us through the actions of uneducated and feckless leftists like yourself. That isn't what generations of Brits fought and died for, and people like you make their deaths and the sacrifices they made look all in vain. Churchill was certainly the man of the 20th century for me, and his description of Islam would make you brand him as a bigot, because that is what you're conditioned into. You tolerate the intolerance of Islamists and that makes you intolerable. The West isn't for you, neither is any place that cherishes freedom. Your place is living under the Taliban or Hamas, because following your airy fairy flower power ideals will only lead to something similar happening here.
Where is your ancestry from? You write like an illiterate and think like a moron.
none of your business where my ancestry is from you just want to know so you can use it against me the only person who thinks like a moron is you and a racist moron at that your nothing but a sad hateful bigot.
who the hell are you to tell me I am not british I live here I pay my taxes the only people who are a threat to this country is people like you who would allow the BNP to take over just becasue of your paranoia about a few muslims that live here get over it theres only 2 million muslims in UK and 60 million non muslims.
"Mohammad, my questions?
I think you just answered all 22 of them with that one sentence anyway."
Once you apologise for swearing at me I'll answer any question you throw at me.
Mo we know the answers already ; you play the victim card but you are a dangerous subversive element. You deserve zero respect.
In fact you are even more dangerous than the likes of Anjem Choudary because you hide your true opinions.
"I have to say that you may think this is fantastic, but how does it feel to know that you are marching side by side with your assassins?
Islam is in the UK to destroy it. It is here to grow and then to implement its culture over our own, has this never dawned upon you?"
Baseless nonsense. No proof whatsoever. Muslims have lived peacefully in the West for decades just like all other minorities.
"You are seriously misled by the Left. It controls the media, it controls the education system as well as the Police and Judiciary. They are brainwashing society into hating themselves and being British. They are making people believe that we British were terrible people and deserve what is happening to us. They are in fact making us destroy ourselves and our culture. It has been a slow deceit. Immigrants from countries all around the world have come here not to integrate but to destroy it. They have managed to gain positions of power, even though they are anti British."
Do you even read what you write?
This is pure bigotry. It is the sort of propaganda peddled by the BNP. Blaming all ills on ethnic minorities, claiming their is a plot by a minority in a country to take over the country - pure paranoia or just stupidity.
Please let us know how the mighty Muslims of the UK have infiltrated the police, the media, the UK Gov. the army and when do they plan to announce the take over. Lmao. Do you know how funny you sound? one minute Muslims are all uneducated and crazy, the next they are on the verge of taking over the UK. Please read what you write.
"The thing is Maria, you may think that Israel are doing wrong, but tell me, how would you feel if you were an Israeli, and every single Muslim around you wanted your destruction? Seven year the Israeli people put up with Hamas launching rackets at them and did they retaliate like any other country would? What do you think England would do if France acted like Hamas?
It has shown remarkable restraint in lasting this long. The walls surrounding Israel are not there to keep people from leaving but from suicide bombers killing.
I'm so angry at people like you because you live constantly in the dark yet think you can see so clearly. You are fed a daily diet of left wing pro Islamic propaganda and you lap it up like a hungry child, not even thinking of questioning what is actually happening."
What Israel is doing is wrong. What Hamas is doing is also wrong. You don't seem to get that there are people out there that disagree with both groups. They are both merciless killers its just that the Israelis have better weapons.
Its easy to say that Israel is isolated and on its own but that is not the case. The US protects Israel, just look at how many resolutions they have vetoed. And also look at US arms sales to Israel as well as other Mid-East countries.
"Are you completely ignorant to not see that Israel is defending itself? Do you not realise that the left wing media here is blowing all the deaths out of proportion, or should I say is being dishonest in reporting that all the casualties are innocents when that is far from the case?"
Killing close to a thousand innocents is not defence.
"You are one of those people who no doubt thought the extermination of the Jews in WW2 was abominable, yet you'll march with the very people, who have a copy of Mein Kampf in their back pocket."
Nonsense. All those marching against the war hate Jews and want them dead? That is a very simplistic way of looking at it.
"I have to say that you may think this is fantastic, but how does it feel to know that you are marching side by side with your assassins?
Islam is in the UK to destroy it. It is here to grow and then to implement its culture over our own, has this never dawned upon you?"
Baseless nonsense. No proof whatsoever. Muslims have lived peacefully in the West for decades just like all other minorities.
"You are seriously misled by the Left. It controls the media, it controls the education system as well as the Police and Judiciary. They are brainwashing society into hating themselves and being British. They are making people believe that we British were terrible people and deserve what is happening to us. They are in fact making us destroy ourselves and our culture. It has been a slow deceit. Immigrants from countries all around the world have come here not to integrate but to destroy it. They have managed to gain positions of power, even though they are anti British."
Do you even read what you write?
This is pure bigotry. It is the sort of propaganda peddled by the BNP. Blaming all ills on ethnic minorities, claiming their is a plot by a minority in a country to take over the country - pure paranoia or just stupidity.
Please let us know how the mighty Muslims of the UK have infiltrated the police, the media, the UK Gov. the army and when do they plan to announce the take over. Lmao. Do you know how funny you sound? one minute Muslims are all uneducated and crazy, the next they are on the verge of taking over the UK. Please read what you write.
"The thing is Maria, you may think that Israel are doing wrong, but tell me, how would you feel if you were an Israeli, and every single Muslim around you wanted your destruction? Seven year the Israeli people put up with Hamas launching rackets at them and did they retaliate like any other country would? What do you think England would do if France acted like Hamas?
It has shown remarkable restraint in lasting this long. The walls surrounding Israel are not there to keep people from leaving but from suicide bombers killing.
I'm so angry at people like you because you live constantly in the dark yet think you can see so clearly. You are fed a daily diet of left wing pro Islamic propaganda and you lap it up like a hungry child, not even thinking of questioning what is actually happening."
What Israel is doing is wrong. What Hamas is doing is also wrong. You don't seem to get that there are people out there that disagree with both groups. They are both merciless killers its just that the Israelis have better weapons.
Its easy to say that Israel is isolated and on its own but that is not the case. The US protects Israel, just look at how many resolutions they have vetoed. And also look at US arms sales to Israel as well as other Mid-East countries.
"Are you completely ignorant to not see that Israel is defending itself? Do you not realise that the left wing media here is blowing all the deaths out of proportion, or should I say is being dishonest in reporting that all the casualties are innocents when that is far from the case?"
Killing close to a thousand innocents is not defence.
"You are one of those people who no doubt thought the extermination of the Jews in WW2 was abominable, yet you'll march with the very people, who have a copy of Mein Kampf in their back pocket."
Nonsense. All those marching against the war hate Jews and want them dead? That is a very simplistic and convenient way of looking at it. All those that oppose Israels brutal war want to see Jews dead, they all support Hitler blah blah. Its illogical.
Mohammad, glad to see you rejoining the discussion! I'd be interested in your comments on my 11:53 PM post about how Western music is regarded in Islam.
Mohammad wrote:
Mohammed really having a debate with you is like shooting first in a barrell. Of course they've lived in peace for decades - in the UK for about three. We now see violence from Islam in the UK because they are no longer a small minority but instead the largest minority. They are growing and as like all Islamisation previous, they behave as good citizens in other countries, keep quiet until they grow to a size to demand and take and to wage jihad.
Do you?
Methinks you don't read what I write. How about a recheck and you will find that you put Islam in place of 'left wing' what I wrote.
No what Hamas has done is wrong. What Syria and Lebanon did to Israel was wrong. What Islam wants to do to Judaism is wrong. Israel has retaliated with effective force. It has a far superior force to any Islamic Nation. Hamas were warned by Egypt not to expect roses if it attacked Israel. Hamas started this war and Israel will end it. Get used to it. People die and those deaths have been brought on the Palestinian people by Hamas and no one else.
Thank God for that as the US are the only Nation protecting them. If I was in charge of the UK, British troops would never have gone to Iraq or Afghanistan but be over in Israel helping them defeat Hamas and if asked would also be backing up Israel in destroying Ahmadinejad and his Islamist regime. So what about Arms deals? Both are benefitting from it. It's called business and I hate to say it but the trading in arms and munition has been going on for a very long time, has been long before you and I were born and will continue long after we're gone.
It's called War. Get over it and accept it. More importantly a thousand innocents? Why not try a quarter of that if. It has been proved that the majority of deaths are Hamas terrorists. You deny this because you must defend your Muslim brothers. You also defend this as this gives you credibility with the Western Media who continue to appease Islam, fearing suicide bombs and Muslim riots unless it complies. If you want to do something about it then start telling your Muslim brothers that Islam is wrong in its pursuit of Islamisation and destruction of Israel. Also know as well Mohammed that as long as I draw breath I will never see Islamisation in my lifetime and prey to Allah that you, your Muslim brothers and I never meet on the battlefield.
I really don't think so. Islam despises Judaism. Muhammad your beloved prophet enjoyed killing them and hence the hatred started from there. You know your history as do I and your religion is not a religion but in fact a Blood/Death Cult. I know that. Everyone on here knows that, but wait it's wrong in your eyes because it's a Religion of Peace.
Really Mohammed, this is just too easy. It's like taking candy from a child having a debate with you. Then again, I've told you before that Islam does what Islam does and you are void of all rational or free thought thanks to child abuse from your parents who allowed Islam into your mind!
2 million muslims in UK and 60 million non muslims.
All it takes is a determined minority group armed with a totalitarian ideology like the bolsheviks or the maoists to overthrow a governement (or to modify a culture).
Islam is that new totalitarian ideology that wants to impose itself, in the public sphere to modify the culture of the west. With the help of traitors, it has already managed to implement sharia courts in G-B; and in some other europeans countries mohamedans want laws to prohibit the "defamation" of islam (i think there already are "anti blasphemy" laws in Holland).
They do not like western values and traditions so why should we tolerate them ? If they want to live here, they will have to start respecting the fact that Europe has christian roots; and also realize that we do not have to adapt to them, but that it is their duty to adapt to us; it is just elementary respect.
Re. the pro-Israel anti-Jihad rally in Trafalgar Square on Sunday 11 - Richard, so glad you were able to make it and that it went well.
Preliminary reports may be found at the 'New English Review', which is another of Mr Fitzgerald's hangouts, and is frequented also by 'Esmerelda Weatherwax' who was a regular poster here at jihadwatch under the moniker 'Granny Weatherwax'; she is a Londoner born-and-bred, and very, very active in the counter-jihad Resistance. Only family illness prevented Ms Weatherwax from being there at Trafalgar Square also.
http://www.newenglishreview.org/blog_display.cfm/blog_id/18930
It all seems to have been very civilised; though in the best British tradition, someone got tossed into the fountain.
"pro-Israel supporters said one man had been pushed into an icy fountain after he tried to infiltrate and disrupt their demonstration. Jonathan West, 41, a solicitor from Ilford, Essex, said: “He tried to disrupt the Chief Rabbi’s speech. People pushed him into the fountain - he did go through the ice and he must be very cold. “'
Hehehe. Nothing like cold water to dampen the fires of Jihad.
dumbledoresarmy,
I've just posted up my experience at the March on the Denmark pro-jihad demo: "We want to kill all the Jews" thread.
Have a read. I didn't see the guy getting thrown in as I was at the bottom of Charing Cross Road and couldn't see 10 yards in front of me for the numbers - LOL.
Anyway have a read.
I should add that there was also a pro-Israel demonstration in Manchester - attended by more than 2000 people.
The New English Review links to a brief report which mentions that the Manchester event was attended by 'MPs' who 'asserted Israel's right to defend itself'.
British jihadwatchers; find out who those MPs were, fast. They must be showered with positive emails, letters and phone-calls - or even personal visits - as soon as possible - in order to counter the barrage of Muslim hatemail, threats and (more subtly) insidious flattery and sweet-talking, which will doubtless befall them as a result of their actions.
You may like to send them the following links to (1) the MEMRI translation of the Hamas Covenant
http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP109206#_ednref5
and (2) Mr Bostom's article from American Thinker,
http://www.americanthinker.com/printpage/?url=http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/01/confronting_hamas_genocidal_je.html
analysing that covenant and placing it in the broader Islamic context.
"Donald rumsfield has also shook the hand of saddamn Hussein i seen the picture." -- Maria
Maria, dear, try to spend a little more time with your homework and a little less time just looking at pictures. Or if you must look at pictures, spend some time learning the history behind those pictures before you draw conclusions based on little more than guesses. The picture you are referring to was from the 1980s, right after the Iranian revolution that installed the Mullahs into power in Iran. The US supported Saddam throughout the eight years of the Iran-Iraq war that followed, and that picture was taken during one of Rumsfeld's associated visits to Iraq.
The Law of Unintended Consequences rules in diplomacy just as it does everywhere else, and no one is immune from making mistakes. The mistake we (the U.S.: Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, Bush II) made with Saddam was to misunderstand the nature of the Sunni-Shia divide as the source of many of the problems in the Middle East, and that they can only be played off against each other with limited success. But we've been whacked over the head enough times that we're starting to learn, albeit painfully and slowly, about what the true roots of the Middle East conflict are.
Saddam was in the process of assembling an arsenal to threaten Israel (remember the Scud missiles of Gulf War I - are you old enough to remember this?), and Israel had previously taken out the nuclear facilities he was building in pursuit of creating a nuclear warhead capability, and which would surely have been used to threaten Israel or to destroy it altogether.
We here didn't just fall off the turnip truck yesterday, Maria. Many posters here have a deep, comprehensive, and crystal clear understanding of the nature of the roots of the current conflict involving Israel. It's a little more complicated than being simply a peace/love/war thing that can be addressed by lighting a few candles and chanting OM. We've been there and tried that, so now we're into Plan B. And if this doesn't work we'll go on to Plan C.
Having said all this, stay with this forum long enough to gain some understanding about its philosophy and eventually you, too, will begin to understand.
Maria states:
"none of your business where my ancestry is from you just want to know so you can use it against me"
Why so defensive? People who have nothing to hide, hide nothing.
You sound more and more like a Muslim with each passing day (and post). Careful, Maria, your taqiyya is beginning to show. Christian, huh? Yeah, right! Muslim is more like it. Obviously!
Anyone can ask me my ancestry and I won't get defensive, I will gladly tell them. I have nothing to hide.
champ think what you like i have nothing to hide I am very proud of my ancestry and to be honest i dont really care what you or anyone else thinks if you want to beleive i am muslim fine its up to you think what you like.
"Mohammad, glad to see you rejoining the discussion! I'd be interested in your comments on my 11:53 PM post about how Western music is regarded in Islam."
Hi,
Just read your post. I think you are completely wrong in your assertion, first of all, classical music is not popular, it does not bind people, specifically youngsters. I am in my early 20s, growing up, going to school and uni etc. I can say with ease that the greatest and most popular music movement is hip-hop, rap and pop. 2pac being very popular back in the 90s and now Eminem and 50 Cent. I personally love classical music, if the timing and the mood is right nothing beats it, but the mood has to be there. I still remember the groans when someone would jokingly play Classic FM when I was studying my A-Levels.
In the Islamic World there are many types of music, many types of instruments not used in the West and many well renowned musicians and artists. You would have to be nuts to think people in the Muslim World do not listen to music. Nusrat Fateh Ali Kahn was World renowned for his music and poetry, you must have heard of him, Pakistan has produced some of the greatest poets, singers and artists. Turkey, Pakistan, Lebanon, Egypt etc. These are all nations with a rich heritage in the arts.
Islamically speaking, the jurists would say music is forbidden but this must be taken in context. Some scholars say a drum beat is allowed, others say as long as nothing immoral is being promoted it is okay, the truth is the recitation of the Quran itself is melodious, Muslims are instructed to recite it beautifully. The call to prayer is considered by many to be musical, we see it in countless scenes in movies. Even in Mosques we have songs in praise of God and the Prophet, poetry and all that sort of stuff, called Hamds and Naats (Naaths). Music is used in many religious gatherings, I myself have been to many.
I would highly recommend you learn about other cultures it seems you are almost putting up a barrier between the West and everyone else.
"Mohammed really having a debate with you is like shooting first in a barrell. Of course they've lived in peace for decades - in the UK for about three. We now see violence from Islam in the UK because they are no longer a small minority but instead the largest minority. They are growing and as like all Islamisation previous, they behave as good citizens in other countries, keep quiet until they grow to a size to demand and take and to wage jihad."
Thank you for admitting that Muslims can and have lived in peace. Now you say 'we see violence from Islam in the UK' - what does that mean? That is such a vague statement demonising such a large and varied community it is almost laughable.
Are Muslims waging a war in the UK? Really?
My Muslim mates are all at home, most of them I would believe are in bed, unless they are invading the UK that is. Sometimes I have to check if I'm really living in the UK because you make so little sense.
"No what Hamas has done is wrong. What Syria and Lebanon did to Israel was wrong. What Islam wants to do to Judaism is wrong. Israel has retaliated with effective force."
Thats the difference between you and I. I can say what both (Hamas and Israel) are doing is wrong, you on the other hand cannot. Israel kills hundreds of innocent Palestinians, women, children and the elderly and yet no condemnation. Can you see the difference. You are indifferent to the suffering of one side, it doesn't mean anything to you.
When you can see right as right, and wrong as wrong we may be able to have a constructive discussion.
"Thank God for that as the US are the only Nation protecting them. If I was in charge of the UK, British troops would never have gone to Iraq or Afghanistan but be over in Israel helping them defeat Hamas and if asked would also be backing up Israel in destroying Ahmadinejad and his Islamist regime"
Then I'm glad you are not in charge. You would destroy the UK. You're right that the UK has no business in Iraq and Afghanistan though.
"It's called War. Get over it and accept it."
No. Killing innocents is wrong, I will not get over it, I will show anger and disgust whenever innocents are killed, it happens in wars? I know, it doesn't mean I have to accept it. I will never accept it. The deaths of innocents is not something trivial, we can all do something to work against it.
"Also know as well Mohammed that as long as I draw breath I will never see Islamisation in my lifetime and prey to Allah that you, your Muslim brothers and I never meet on the battlefield."
Battlefield?
You're taking this abit too seriously my friend. Relax.
"I really don't think so."
So all those marching against Israels killing of innocents is a Jew hater and wants to see all Jews dead?...
Is there no middle ground here? lol. What about those guys that don't want anyone to die?
Hi Maria!
Its funny how certain members here can not tolerate someone with a different opinion or view point, if you have a different viewpoint the insults and accusations just come flying in. Its just been a few days, I've been sworn at, insulted, shouted at and called a financier of terrorism!
Its simply hilarious!
Warmest regards
Mohammad, thanks for your post about music. Yes, music is universal and present in one form or another in every culture, and I do admit that cultural factors determine taste to some extent. And, yes, classical music elicits groans from many people, especially kids, but in terms of its sheer magnificence it's hard to beat. Rather like cheese and good wine, it's an acquired taste that improves with one's age. Further, it is enduring. I would not classify hip-hop etc. as really being music, despite it's temporary popularity - it's certainly a fad that will pass with time. Do you think there will hip-hop concerts 300 years from now? I think you know the answer to that. I can assure you that Bach and Beethoven will still be played 1000 years from now.
Qur'an recitations do have a charming quality about them, to be sure. My favorite is this one. But this is not greatly dissimilar to Christian children singing "Away in a Manger" at Christmas time. Charming, but hardly in the same league as Handel's Messiah.
You mentioned that "Islamically speaking, the jurists would say music is forbidden but this must be taken in context." It is, of course, the jurists' view that motivated my question.
You also mentioned in your post that "Even in Mosques we have songs in praise of God and the Prophet, poetry and all that sort of stuff, called Hamds and Naats (Naaths). Music is used in many religious gatherings, I myself have been to many." I would love to hear these. Would you be able to point me to some YouTube clips with them?
BTW, I have lived in or traveled to many countries, East and West, North and South, so have a good appreciation for cultures of many different kinds. It was on the basis of my observations of the music that I came to appreciate how little there is to compare to the sheer magnificence of classical music. It's not to everyone's liking, to be sure, and can't compete with popular culture in terms of currency, but that's not the issue I was addressing. It is one of the triumphs of Western civilization that we who live here value highly.
RtL, bummer about the events you mentioned in your 11:44 AM post. You go along fine for long periods of time and then boom, the sh*t hits several fans at once. I hate days like that.
Mohammad, you dodged my questions three times, thereby reinforcing my belief that you are, in fact, a nancy little bitch, and an incredibly weasely one at that. You have more than demonstrated this over and over. You even did it when you taqiyya-ed your way through your selective answering of Eastview's questions last week. You clearly have no respect for freedom of speech and suffer from typical Mohammedan megalomania, narcissism, and a deep-seated inferiority complex. There is no need to answer my questions. I know the answers to all but the last two and people like you keep bearing out those answers. You're quite a case study.
The call to prayer is considered by many to be musical.
That God-awful, cat-vomiting, goat-strangling physical abuse of the human eardrum? And it's the best 'gift' given to us in the Muslim world's 1400-year history. Only kafirs make real music and we all know it.
Thanks for handing him his ass, RtL. I'm glad the rally went well. I'm glad that loser got thrown in the fountain, too.
champ think what you like i have nothing to hide I am very proud of my ancestry and to be honest i dont really care what you or anyone else thinks if you want to beleive i am muslim fine its up to you think what you like.
Posted by: Maria
Maria, allow me to teach you some basic punctuation, a little grammar, simply by using your above comment for today's lesson. Here goes:
"Champ, think what you like. I have nothing to hide. I am very proud of my ancestry, and to be honest, I really don't care what you or anyone else thinks. If you want to believe that I am a Muslim, then fine, it's up to you. Think what you like."
See, that wasn't so hard, now was it? Please note the capitalization, grammar, commas, and the all important, p-e-r-i-o-d-s! Hey, you're spelling isn't too bad. You're welcome!
jdamn,
You're welcome. I don't actually think Mohammed means bad intent, I just think that he's unfortunately, like all Muslims, unable of rational thought, because he is a Muslim. Because of his teaching Judaism will always be the enemy and Israel will always be in the wrong regardless what it does.
I also find him confused. He expects those in the West to accept Islam for what it is and to in fact allow them to be able to live as the Koran dictates even though it goes against everything that we in the West believe to be acceptable.
I'll give him his due that he's at least a lot better behaved then Maria and has shown to be able to debate with Eastview.
My biggest issue with Islam is that it's in the West. What would be best for all of us is for it to be rightfully moved back to Islamic Lands where it can continue to live as it wants to.
However at the moment Islam will grow in the West, become more powerful that will eventually result in anger of Non Muslims(having their culture destroyed slowly in order to accept more Islamic culture) meeting Islam head on and much bloodshed. It's really all so clear the vision I have of the future regarding Islam. It's as though I'm watching western civilisation walking towards the end of a high cliff. I'm telling them all to stop but they keep walking, like lemmings towards the end of the cliff........
RtL and jdamn, Mo appears to be in his early twenties, and a student somewhere in the UK. Further, by his answers his view of Western history appears to be the restricted version he obtained from the other side of the Great Divide, and he's only recently being exposed to the broader view from our side. His knowledge of Western music is superficial, perhaps not unexpectedly for a new arrival to the West. (My recommendation to him would be to go beyond popular music and the pop classicals and pick up some CDs (or download some MP3s) of Beethoven and Mendelssohn and Strauss and Brahms and ... and really listen to them. Then he would begin to understand. He could also attend a mass in any of the great cathedrals in London, or attend the London Symphony, and experience first hand what REAL music is.)
I'm a teacher, so I get a stream of guys like this coming across my doorstep all the time. Although these days they typically tend to be Indian or Chinese from small towns, the cultural disorientation they feel is probably not dissimilar to what Mo is experiencing. They all arrive with their own cultural scripts running inside their heads, which also includes unrealistic and incorrect preconceptions about us, and it is amazing to me to watch the transformation that slowly occurs after several years in the West as the script slowly alters. So give him some time. Mo is in a more difficult situation than my Indian or Chinese students, however, in that his parent culture is at the center of much unfavorable attention these days, and therefore so is he. I find no malice in his answers, rather a playing back of canned cultural scrips and a defensiveness stemming from naivete.
To Mohammad: Both RtL and jdamn are highly respected and valued contributors to this forum. As with many of the posters here they are both extremely knowledgeable about issues relating to Islam so this is what motivates their very pointed and direct questions to you. They tend to be more impatient than me with evasive answers, but I share with them the same concerns about what we (all of us here at JW) see happening in the world. As you should know by now many indigenous Europeans are becoming alarmed by the determined resistance to integration by large numbers of Muslim immigrants into the societies of their newly adopted countries. Perhaps most disturbing of all are the proclamations by some of your coreligionists about their intentions to convert these countries to Islam, by subterfuge or force if necessary. Most of us in the West adopt neutral stances regarding religion in the private sphere, but all of us find this in-your-face forcing of religion into the public sphere by Muslims to be more than just rude and insulting, it is intolerable and incompatible with the modern world.
So, hang in there, Mo. Follow the ebb and flow of the discussions that occur on this site. If you choose to contribute have your flame suit close at hand, be honest in your answers, and don't be afraid to admit if you don't know something. Everyone of good will respects that (besides, we have pretty good BS detectors here. People on this site tend to be merciless with BS-spreaders). Along with getting an education, it will give you a chance to see how freedom of speech works in an open society.
Posted by: Mohammad
Its funny how certain members here can not tolerate someone with a different opinion or view point, if you have a different viewpoint the insults and accusations just come flying in. Its just been a few days, I've been sworn at, insulted, shouted at and called a financier of terrorism!
Its simply hilarious!
Hi Mohammad your right its funny certain members on here are so weakminded that they cant tolerate other peoples apinions, I have also been sworn at and being accused of being a muslim I had someone on here tell me people like me deserved to die in a terrorist attack thats how sick some people on here really are all because I am expressing my views on Israels Actions in Gaza
Mohammad and Maria - When I occasionally post in Leftist blogs I get the same treatment. That's why I recommend donning a flame suit before entering hostile territory (which for you guys this most definitely is). A "thick skin" also helps.
Muslims, they always want the red-carpet treatment even in the face of their lying comments and copy/pasted lies and support of an evil ideology: Islam. Lies are not welcome here, and they will be taken out with the other garbage.
And, Maria, you are not one to talk about sick comments being made on here, because you certainly have made your fair share. You wrote this comment on a previous thread a few days ago, and you even addressed certain posters by name:
"you can all go to hell"
But I guess that doesn't count as an insult in your twisted mind as you compare that to someone wanting you dead, so you have made even uglier comments yourself. And whether or not you are truly a Muslim remains to be seen, but you certainly aren't a Christian, as you claim.
Champ i told you i dont care what you think about me beleive what you like yes i told some idiot on here "to go to hell" because they where attacking me and you know damn well that I have been attacked all because i am speaking out against facism and zionism i dont expect to be treated well on here from a bunch of hateful bigots but you cant stop me from speaking out so insult all you like you just make yourselfs look like a bigger bunch of morons
I have said it before and it bears repeating: There is no way that the Israel/Palestine situation will have a happy ending. Eventually, it will escalate to a nuclear war. I think that Israel is very foolish to think that what they are doing in Gaza today will have the long lasting effects that they desire. I think it is also VERY foolish of Israel to think that they can keep nuclear arms out of the hands of their enemies forever. Yet, THAT is what they must do. If the Israelis REALLY think that can happen, good luck. I doubt very much that the average Israeli citizen would even admit that is a possibility. The hatred runs too deep - on both sides.
I think that I have a viable solution though.
Why don't the first-world countries get together and build a new country for Israel? It could be located in Australia where there is an abundance of land available and the Israelis could live for eternity - in PEACE! They could call it New Israel and have the capitol called New Tel Aviv. They would be at peace, the Palestinians would be at peace, and everyone would be happy. Israel IS ONLY LAND! It is not worth EVERYONE dying over.
Also, for the religious fanatics out there, I have a website for you to go to just so that you will see where your religion comes from. After you see it, MAYBE, you will see that it is NOT as important as you thought it was. This applies to both Muslims and Jews. The link for the website is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeEX-M7rHAc&feature=related
I have been wrong on predicting future events only once. If you REALLY want peace and since land is ONLY DIRT!!!, you will listen and pay attention. A nuclear war WILL happen if something is not done. If Israel fires first, it will only be a matter of time before it is avenged in the same manner, and vice versa, should it come from a Muslim source.
Wayne -- please go back to the drawing board and figure out a way to stop the EVERLASTING HATRED that the Arabs have for the Jews.
Moving them to Australia is not the solution, because this is not a war over real estate, but this is about their long standing hatred for the Jews and destroying them once and for all! Moving them over to Aussie-Terrority will only bring a war over there (bet the Aussie's would love that).
They hate the Jews and always have, even before Israel was reborn, or haven't you been paying attention? Events over the past 2+ weeks reveals more of their outspoken hatred for the Jews, notwithstanding thousands of years of historic record of hatred.
Israel has every right to exist RIGHT where it is. And if you were smart, you would support Israel against Hamas and let them kill off this evil foce, because they hate us all; and guess what, they're coming to a neighbor near you. Ready or not, believe it or not, they hate you, too, and they will come for you and your family if given half the chance.
Wise up!
Wayne, I fear you may be right, that nuclear war is the inevitable outcome of this conflict if it continues along its current trajectory.
Unfortunately, logic seems to play a secondary role in this conflict. In the minds of all players the land in the Middle East is far more than just dirt. The Palestinians have been offered peace numerous times by Israel, but have rejected it in favor of stalling until the correlation of forces were aligned in their favor and allowed them to eject the Jews and end the existence of Israel as a state. Their claims of prior "ownership" are, of course, highly dependent on where one defines the historical statute of limitations to run out. Generally, Islam doesn't recognize any claims that precede their own, which is exactly the case here.
Actually, apart from more recent occupancy what is their principal claim to Jerusalem, anyway? It's the al-Aqsa mosque from where Mohammad supposedly made his night journey to heaven, but which in reality wasn't even constructed until after his death. Coincidentally (or perhaps deliberately), it sits atop the site of Solomon's temple, which Israel would like to excavate and restore. I know, maybe they could dig beneath al-Aqsa and retrieve enough of the temple to move it to Australia!
As is obvious from this note, my sympathies are on the side of Israel, who were the original inhabitants there and who are the only civilized country in the region, as far as I'm concerned. The Jews have been chased all over the world for thousands of years. Give them some peace! You want to uproot them yet again to move to the Australia outback? Do you think if Israel is forced to move and the land to become Palestine that this would be the end of conflict with Islam?
I think this would only delay, but not avert, the inevitable showdown that will come between the West and the OIC countries. It would be better to deal with it now, as nasty as it might turn out to be.
I recall reading somewhere that discussions about where to locate Israel, before the ME was selected, included Baha California. Too bad it didn't end up there. Today it would be thriving, prosperous place. But the Jews preferred to return to their ancestral homeland, and I don't blame them.
BTW, you claim to have been wrong on only one occasion. Mind telling us what that was?
...I meant "neighborhood" near you...
Posted by: Wayne Coleman
Eventually, it will escalate to a nuclear war. I think that Israel is very foolish to think that what they are doing in Gaza today will have the long lasting effects that they desire. I think it is also VERY foolish of Israel to think that they can keep nuclear arms out of the hands of their enemies forever. Yet, THAT is what they must do. If the Israelis REALLY think that can happen, good luck
thats true wayne Israel is already paranoid over Iran building a nuclear power plant eventually in 5 years time iran will have nuclear weapons and how long before Iran gives those weapons to Hezbollah? Israel will never live in Peace it will always live in fear wondering which Arab country is getting nukes.
If Israels enemys ever get there hands on nuclear weapons and they attack israel then Israel will use the Sampson option Israel has nukes pointing at America Russia Germany and all the arab countrys and has stated before that if it used the Sampson optian it would fire at those nations.
Posted by: champ
They hate the Jews and always have, even before Israel was reborn,
Not true Champ the muslims Always use to help the Jews when they where being persecuted in Europe in the middle ages the Muslims and Jews fought side by side against the Crusaders the only time the jews where forced out of the arab countrys was When Isreal was Created.
Maria, what you say about persecution of the Jews by Christians during the time of the Crusades is true. Actually, it was far more pervasive than just during the Crusades, and is a stain on the history of the West that Jews were forced to suffer at the hands of Christians as extensively as they did.
But Muslims don't have clean hands, either, and their offenses are much more recent. Perhaps you don't know that during World War II the Mufti of Jerusalem, Mohammad Amin al-Husayni, allied with Adolph Hitler to help supply several Muslim staffed Waffen SS divisions to help round up Jews in the Balkans to be sent to the concentration camps and the ovens, part of Final Solution. Al-Husayni spend much of the war in Berlin under Nazi protection. You can read a complete account of al-Hysayni's career here , as well as see a picture of his meeting with Hitler.
It is partly because of Palestinian complicity in delivering Jews of Europe to Hitler's ovens that we, here, are so ardently pro-Israel. So, next time you see us explode in rage in response to seeing a "Palestinian" waving a flag or displaying a sign with the swastika painted on top of the Star of David, maybe you'll understand the reason.
Eastview yes its true that the Mohammad Amin al-Husayni, allied with Adolph Hitler i think it was because germany and England where at war and the Palestinians at the time wanted the British out of Palestine so they helped Germans.
The Reason I think why Arabs where not so sympathetic to the Jews was becasue they where worried at the time about the Jews who where immagrating to palestine to build a state, So the palestinians saw the british and jews as there enemies and they sided with Hitler but saying that if hitler had suceeded in killing all the Jews he would have killed the Arabs to becasue they where Not White aryans
This is in response to Champ. Champ, you ended your post by saying: "Wise up". Well, it is indeed with wisdom that I was so prompted to write in the first place. You see, I'm a direct descendant of Geoffrey Fulk (1113-1151), count of Anjou, King of Jerusalem, who started the very first crusades (Yes, I have paperwork to prove it). Call it an inborn feeling, call it whatever you like. Perhaps it stems from the fact that the Christians weren't able to hold on to Jerusalem either. Let me ask you this though. Do you REALLY, REALLY think that you can stop the mutual hatred between the Muslims and the Jewish people? If you answered yes, then you may well have a chance. I don't think that you really could answer yes though, in all honesty. Those who want peace FIND peace. Those who want war, FIND war. If I had a chance to live with Koala bears and Kangeroos running across my front yard as opposed to angry Muslims, I know which I would choose. Only stubborness prevents the obvious peaceful solution.
This is in response to Eastview: Eastview, you said that: "I think this would only delay, but not avert, the inevitable showdown that will come between the West and the OIC countries. It would be better to deal with it now, as nasty as it might turn out to be." Might I remind you that there was no problem between the Christians and Muslims for hundreds of years until aide was given to Israel. They lived their lifes with their customs and the Jews and Christians lived with theirs. Out of sight, out of mind. It worked. I don't subscribe to your point of view that the Muslims would follow the Jewish people into Australia just to eradicate them. That would be foolish for the Muslims and I don't think they would embark on something that they knew they could not win. Great Britain would not tolerate it. It would then set off a chain reaction of Christian nations that would inevitably get involved. The United States would follow suite with Britain, then France, then Germany, then Italy, Canada, Holland, and I fully think that even Spain would take out their rusty swords and rise up to the occasion. With all of that going to defend a New Israel, they would be rest assured the peace that they so much want and need.
Maria: I believe that you are correct when you said that at one time the Muslims and the Jews fought together and lived together in peace. I also believe that time has come and gone. Separation seems to be the only logical way out.
I speak as a human to say that I don't want to see what is on the way, happen. It is NOT in the best interest of either Israel or Palestine. It is NOT in the best interest for the rest of the world either. I don't think that Israel's "Sampson Option" is wise either. I'm sure that if they do have such a plan, other countries already have ways to deal with it.
Maria, you're probably right, that Hitler was using al-Husayni to help kill the Jews, and if Germany had won the war in Europe he would eventually have turned on the Arabs because they were not Aryans.
But you can probably appreciate the pain it causes Israelis to be accused of today of being like the Nazis, who were well on his way to wiping them out as a people. Yes, we know the role of the British in the Middle East in the years after World War I. But remember, it was Britain who stood alone in Europe against Hitler, after the rest of Europe had fallen, until America came to her aid and, with the Russians, were finally able to destroy this monster. If it had not been for Britain we would all today be speaking German - those of us who would have survived his planned expanded programs of genocide against non-Aryans.
If you read the Wikipedia article, which was quite lengthy, you'll see that al-Husayni, went well beyond decent bounds of humanity in his support of Germany, and specifically called for the killing of all Jews. It's exactly the same call we hear today from his followers. Do you hear Israelis calling for the killing of all "Palestinians?" No, you do not.
"I don't subscribe to your (Eastview's) point of view that the Muslims would follow the Jewish people into Australia just to eradicate them. -- Wayne.
I wasn't suggesting that they would follow Jews to Australia just eradicate them, but I did enjoy the image you conjured up of Spaniards pulling out their rusty swords in their defense of the Jews if this did happen.
Yes, the Jews and Arabs did share the same spaces over many centuries in many places, but I would hardly refer to this as a peace among equals. In Arab countries the Jews always carried on a dhimmified existence, subject to the whims of the rulers of the state. The central issue here is not how great it would be if only the Jews would acquiesce to returning to such demeaning second class status within someone else's country. It is the right of Jews to have a national home, to a dignified existence in the world as an equal among nations, within defensible boundaries, secure from external attack and the ability to be able to defend itself if it is. They're almost there, and I hardly think they are likely to just give it up now.
Going back to your "piece of dirt" statement - remember, it was the phrase "next year in Jerusalem" that helped keep these people together for a very long time. To them it is not just a "piece of dirt."
I am impressed by your lineage going back to Geoffrey Fulk (1113-1151), count of Anjou, King of Jerusalem, who started the very first crusades. He even has his own Wikipedia page, which you can find by following the link from the table entry "Fulk" in Kings of Jerusalem . Very cool.
They hate the Jews and always have, even before Israel was reborn,
Not true Champ the muslims Always use to help the Jews when they where being persecuted in Europe in the middle ages the Muslims and Jews fought side by side against the Crusaders the only time the jews where forced out of the arab countrys was When Isreal was Created.
Posted by: Maria
Maria, you are quibbling over my lack of clarity regarding this hatred from Muslims towards the Jews, so let me be more specific. This hatred dates back to Abraham and his two sons, Isaac & Ishmael. The hatred really started with those two sons, and then Mohammad put it into overdrive. So this hate has been going on for quite some time.
Not saying that there hasn't been some periods of peace between some Muslims and the Jews in the past. I am simply stating that this hatred has been going on f-o-r-e-v-e-r. Surely you don't disagree with that? And surely you don't disagree that there is enough hatred going around TODAY to fill a textbook. History aside, look at what's going on today!
Wayne,
I appreciate your response, and I also apologize for telling you to "wise up". In no way did I mean to imply that you aren't a wise person in general, but I was referring to the wisdom of your plan. I am not in favor of moving the Jews to Australia, because that will not solve the everlasting hatred between them.
Solving this hate issue is monumental at best, and I am not claiming to have an answer for it; so with that in mind I concede that the fact that at least you're offering an idea, a solution, but it's one I do not think will work. So I still think that supporting IDF's efforts and defeating Hamas is a wise and path, a difficult and ugly path, but it's still the right path. Taking the path of least resistance is not going to solve this issue, as what you're proposing.
Ever read the story in the Bible about Abraham and his two sons, Isaac & Ishmael? Well, it would be good for you and anyone interested in learning some of the root causes of this hatred between Muslims towards Jews, and why the current conflicts over Israel dates back to those two sons. I found this link that I think you'll find interesting, and so will you, Maria:
http://therefinersfire.org/ishmael_and_isaac.htm
Champ, I also posted the actual Bible verses from Genesis with the amazing story of Abraham, Hagar, Ishmael, Sarah and Isaac a few days ago, but it archived out (as this thread is also about to do, unfortunately) before anyone had a chance to read or comment on it. The post can be found here. It's the somewhat lengthy post almost at the end.
Eastview, thanks for posting that thread again, because I missed it the other day. The story of Abraham's two sons is such an important one for everyone to know, because it reveals the roots of Muslim hatred towards the Jews. It definitely started with Ishmael's jealousy of Isaac, which then developed into full-blown hatred. Enter Mohammad! ....and now here we are, LOL!
Eastview: I'm sorry if I gave you the wrong impression. I meant that if the Israelis were to move to an area in Australia, they WOULD own the land, and they WOULD be a sovereign nation. They would not be under British control in any way. I think that the British Government would still stand beside them in any attack. I wouldn't see that happening though. I do think though that the Muslims would have the biggest party this side of the Mississippi and the Jewish people would awe-stricken by what to do with all the peace and quiet.
Champ: But that is the point I have been trying to make. I don't see things changing for the better. Why? Because I don't think that the hate will abate. I think it has gone on so long now that there is a gene within both the Jews and the Muslims that will carry over to future generations. If that sounds strange to you, then consider this: Genes that create homosexuals work in the same manner. Scientists now know that repetitious behavior CAN cause the development of a gene that makes future generations pre-disposed to that behavior. (There are other ways gays become gay so please don't take offense if anyone who reads this is gay) This is a great example: Say that for a thousand years, forefathers who you never knew had a secret past-time that no one else knew about but most of them did. Chances are almost 100% that some member of their descendants will also do the same thing even if they never knew their forefathers - because a gene was created. I could go on about that and you would simply be ASTOUNDED by what our Government is doing with this knowledge but, this is not the forum for that. My point is this: You say that the main problem is with the hatred from the Muslims towards the Jewish people (I feel it is mutual). I say that things can't change over night and with all the new weapons out there, there might not BE enough time to change what has already been created. If you have two children who cannot stop fighting, do you lock them together in the same room to fight it out OR, do you separate them? Don't be offended by my term "children". That solves nothing. You know what I mean. I'm sure that the Palestinians would not mind if Solomon's Temple was removed as long as the Mosque which sits on top of it was replaced unharmed. There are so many possiblities. War, in these times, is not the answer. I believe that if the Jewish people had gone into that region 50 years earlier, things would have been different. There are NUCLEAR threats now. It is NOT worth dying over land and religion when there are other ways out. Peaceful ways. Remember, if you WANT peace, you will FIND peace. If you WANT war, you will FIND war. It takes ONE to find peace. It takes TWO to find war.
Yep, here we are, indeed. Amazing, isn't it, that a sibling rivalry from 3500 years ago threatens global destruction today?
When Sarah Palin was running for VP in the recent election I taunted Muslims on JW that she was not to someone to be trifled with. Palin is a conservative Christian, and as such knows the Bible by heart, including, of course, the story of Ishmael and Isaac. Abraham's Sarah kicked out Ismael 3500 years ago, and today's Sarah would almost certainly not take any crap from Muslims now, any more than her namesake did then. Sadly, no one took the bait. Too bad. It could have been a lot of fun. ;-)
This thread has turned into a great discussion. Too bad it will shortly time out.
Wayne, your suggestion "I'm sure that the Palestinians would not mind if Solomon's Temple was removed as long as the Mosque which sits on top of it was replaced unharmed" is one I made a few days go on another thread, namely that Al-Aqsa simply be moved off to one side by enough to permit excavation and restoration of Solomon's Temple. This would be a good compromise solution, but unfortunately, I think the chances of the Muslims agreeing to this are virtually nil.
I like your genetic analysis. Will have to think about this. A discussion about genetics occurred here a few months ago in relation to descendants of Mohammad (most of us of European extraction most probably are direct descendants of Mohammad - as well as of Charlemagne and virtually every one else who lived at that time). The discussion got a little heated, as I recall.
An addendum. A propos genetics, if you haven't seen this already Wayne you might be interested in an Atlantic article from 2004 titled The Royal We . The focus of the article is on genealogy, but the main point can be generalized to apply to genetic transmission of traits of all kinds.
Wayne -- I agree in part with your gene analogy, because we all have the capacity for hate due to our sinful nature, but I do not think that there might be a 'hate gene', if that's what you're suggesting. Nor do I think that this explains the everlasting hatred between Muslims & Jews.
However, you are right to point out that hate works both ways; it isn't only Muslims hating Jews, but that Jews have hated Muslims as well, since it's something every human being struggles with.
Please read the story of Abraham and his two sons, Isaac & Ishmael, because it brings to light the root of the hatred between them; and it also reveals that not all hate is equal, especially when hatred is generated by jealousy from one person to another, or from one people group to another.
Case in point -- I have a brother that I may never speak to again due to HIS jealousy of me. His jealousy has caused many problems, not only between he and I, but for our entire family. I am the oldest of three children, and our father put me in charge of handling his estate before he died. This caused my brother to burn with jealousy and hatred towards me, because he felt that HE should have been chosen, and his jealousy showed in every exchange I had with him.
His jealousy was very difficult to navigate around during the time I had to manage and settle Dad's estate, and without detailing all the events, I can tell you that he put me and our family through hell.
His jealousy of me was a tremendous annoyance, and it drove a wedge between us. My efforts to make him happy were endless, I mean endless. I bent over backwards to please him, but nothing seemed to help. I made one concession after another in an effort to make him happy, but he would not be satisfied.
Trust me, if you heard the details of why he was so jealous, then you most certainly would agree that the root of the problem began with him and his jealousy of me. I'm not saying that I was a perfect angel while settling the estate, because I wasn't. I had gotten into arguments with him, and told him to F-Off a few times due to him being difficult. But in spite of all that, I still tried to be the peace maker, over, and over again.
Believe me, when someone is JEALOUS of you, my God, there is nothing that will satisy them. His jealousy reached an all time high when he threatened to kill me and my family. I won't detail what happened, but I can tell you it was terrorizing, and it's key to our current separation. Jealous people can do desperate things, so hatred isn't always equal, not when jealousy is in the mix. Sure I hated him for what he did, but this did not make us equal in any way. Jealousy can take hatred to a whole different level.
I think it's obvious to those who know the story of Abraham why I've chosen to tell you this personal story. I simply wanted to draw a parallel between my family situation to that of Abraham and his two sons, Isaac & Ishmael.
Now, the only thing left for YOU to do, is to read the story of Abraham, Isaac & Ishmael, then why I told my story with my brother will make more sense.
Take care!
Wayne, further about the "hate gene." This is a subject in a broader area of genetic studies that, while scientifically interesting and a perfectly valid for research, has been studiously avoided ever since the 1994 publication of "The Bell Curve" by Hernstein and Murray. In that book differences in intelligence derived from genetic differences in races were proposed and discussed, creating a firestorm because of the social implications of the research. William Shockley, the inventor of the transistor, didn't help things with his staunch defense of eugenics based on his belief there was a strong difference in intelligence among the races. You can check out the controversy on Wikipedia.
Needless to say, this was a prescription for racial politics that would be to the detriment of those races deemed to be of inferior intelligence. Hernstein, Murray and Shockley, being Anglo-Saxons, were accused of being racist, which spelled the end of this type of research.
There are undoubtedly significant genetic differences of various kinds among ethic groups that have been isolated and have interbred for any length of time, and which go well beyond skin and eye color or certain types of sickle cell anemia. (cf. see jdamn's very interesting comments on studies on the negative effects of consanguinity among Arabs - I can attest to the reality of some kinds of negative effects because of cousin marriage on my mother's side of the family, who are Amish). But because of the explosive nature of the subject if it strays into the realm of intelligence or personality, science has generally kept a very low profile on this type of research. Although I am a scientist and generally consider everything as fair game for research, this particular topic is so laden with potential for abuse (e.g., Hitler's eugenics program) that I would pause for a long time before delving into it.
Having said all this, I think it would be very interesting to know if there was such a thing as a "hate gene." But before going down this road too far, I would like to see studies of children born of Arab parents but raised in a Jewish home and cultural environment, and vice versa. If there is a hate gene that all of us are endowed with, of the type you propose has developed in Jewish and Arabic populations, then this should show up in such a study. Do you know of such a study?