The new thing, at least for anti-Israel demonstrators in London, is to throw their shoes -- a la Muntadhar al-Zeidi, the thuggish "journalist" who became a hero in the Islamic world by throwing his shoes at President Bush during a press conference. So today's pro-jihad rally in London left behind the heap of shoes above, indicating the noble protesters' heroic support for suicide attacks on civilians, genocidal childrens' shows, the terrorizing and subjugation of women and non-Muslims, and other delightful features of Hamas rule in Gaza and Sharia law in general.
Pamela has many more photos of similarly unhinged demonstrations of Jew-hatred from all over what used to be called the civilized world.
The Islamic Neanderthals wear shoes?
Sorry, London, but you deserve what you are getting. Excuse me, Londonistan.
Is there any update on who dumped thousands of shoes, yesterday, on a freeway in Miami, Florida?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090103/ap_on_fe_st/odd_expressway_shoes_5
I hope these pro-terrorist crowds stepped on glass and shredded their feet on their way home. It serves them right.
Idiots.
Shoe throwing may turn into a regular thing...Good business for kufr shoe salesmen.
We got a shoe horn, and we got a shoe tree, but we don't have a shoe shield.
RS should consider a shoe shield or practice up on ducking...This fad could spread to Mohammadan groups in colleges and universities everywhere...
Latest word just in:
U.K. government to recruit 5000 immigrant Pakistani shoe-makers to provide halal shoes for British Moslems.
Actually, even better and following on from duh_swami's point, instead of shoe shield or ducking practice, we could also shower these crowds with broken glass after they've thrown their shoes at the police.
That'll give them something to remember.
It is ironic, isn't it?
Churchill's rhetoric, which stirred the passion and courage of the British, is now in the hearts of the Muslim-British jihadists. Now, it is the non-Muslim British who are in trouble, and facing a mighty wrath of righteous, albeit evil, fury.
Since there isn't a Churchill-type in the House of Commons pipeline, who will lead the fight? Sadly, they might just go quietly into a very dark night from which they will never see the light again.
Chirchill's words should be resonating within every person in the civilized world, not just the West. Unfortunately, we are not waging an ideological war. In fact, our political, cultural and intellectual elite are doing their damnedest to ensure it remains that way.
This is like the story of the original Red Necks.
The Communists were almost wiped out in 1927 during the Shanghai Massacre. The communists protested and rioted in a major Chinese city. To show solidarity and to identify themselves they wore red strips of cloth around their necks. Unfortunately, the dye was poor and was water soluble. When they sweated, the dye turned their necks red. After the riots were over and the government restored order, it was an easy job to identify the communist rioters, by looking for a red neck. Needless to say, the government went out and rounded up everyone with a Red Neck and summarily executed them. Since Mao Tse Tung helped to found the Chinese Communists in Shanghai and was there during the riots, History could have changed, had they found him with the red dye on his neck.
I guess the same tactic could have been taken for the big Shoe throw. God only knows how the future would have changed, if a shoeless man or woman that might later perform a terrorist act, had been arrested in his/her socks after the Shoe Throw. I guess we will never know, since shoe throwing is now a protected form of speech.
Time to play the "Shoe Bomber" once again?
http://sheikyermami.com/2006/12/19/the-shoe-bomber/
They have not started to destroy things yet. (In England)
This war is going to be BIG when it finally breaks out. Just to many people think like those in this article for the eventual war not to be much, much larger than what is going on today.
The shoe racks at London thrift stores will be fully stocked right quick.
The shoe racks at London thrift stores will be fully stocked right quick.
Posted by: song_and_dance_man
The discriminating Mohammadan will only throw one shoe...saving the other for the next shoe attack...Still, after sharia is accepted and they start practicing Q5:33, there may be a lot of call for single shoes...
"I hope these pro-terrorist crowds stepped on glass and shredded their feet on their way home. It serves them right.
Idiots."
but then they would only blame Israel.....
Then the U.N. would condemn the Israeli attacks on the peaceful london protesters...
"I hope these pro-terrorist crowds stepped on glass and shredded their feet on their way home. It serves them right.
Idiots."
but then they would only blame Israel.....
Then the U.N. would condemn the Israeli attacks on the peaceful london protesters...
"I hope these pro-terrorist crowds stepped on glass and shredded their feet on their way home. It serves them right.
Idiots."
but then they would only blame Israel.....
Then the U.N. would condemn the Israeli attacks on the peaceful london protesters...
"I hope these pro-terrorist crowds stepped on glass and shredded their feet on their way home. It serves them right.
Idiots."
but then they would blame Israel.....
Then the U.N. would condemn the Israeli attacks on the peaceful london protesters...
The problem with these people is that most of them do not work, live on welfare and do not speak the langauges of the countries they live.
The Left imposed western guilt has gone to far
Mohammedans should be banned from wearing shoes altogether, and be forced to roam around barefooted, just like the hippies.
Of course, given the way we are, Nike, Reebok, Adidas, et al should all make a windfall in this economy selling shoes to Mohammedans to use in demonstrations (in place of the good ole rotten eggs & tomatoes). In fact, they could even buy from us our old shoes and sell them to Mohammedans, making even bigger margins (and as we all know, nothing else matters). It would be a sweet irony when all of those are used to pelt our current dhimmi leaders like Bush, Brown, Olmert, Pranab Mukherjee, et al.
Don't worry about them (those shoes) being used in case an actual anti-Mohammedan came to power anywhere - such a leader would seriously crack down on the Mohammedan threat before one could say 'Allahu Akbar'
Sudden Downpour of Shoes:
http://www.shoeaholicsanonymous.com/potpourri/sudden-downpour-of-shoes/
Umm, isn't littering a crime?
Levy a fine against the protest organizers. Oh, who am i kidding...
"The Left imposed western guilt has gone to far"
the left imposed lazy and cowardly concept of multiculturalism is the problem.
Lazy and coward because politicians can avoid confronting immigrants with their responsability :
to integrate and drop those values which are incompatible with ours.
In looking at the picture, one wonders what the target of all these shoes littering the middle of the street was supposed to be. Maybe they just threw their shoes straight up into the air, a variant on shooting guns into the air. I wonder how many got bonked on the head by descending shoes?
The shoeless Mohammedans hopping home (in socks?) are more likely to have stepped in doggie do, not glass. Unclean icky doggie-do, all squishy between their toes. Let's enjoy that thought.
S Perry
DON'T scatter broken glass. Other people have to use the streets too.
I suggest that if and when the pro-Jihad rioters start throwing shoes about, the anti-Jihad protestors should be equipped to respond with non-lethal easy-to-clean-up chemical warfare comprising a barrage of super-sweaty Infidel footie socks (since the sweat of an unclean kafir is najis,'UNCLEAN', according to the ayatollah Sistani). Creep them out. Make them feel all icky.
*Wet* (to make a good splat) stinky unwashed footie socks would be easiest for the city to clean up after, and would also, I suspect, get a laugh from any kafir present or watching the fun on TV.
Before going to the anti-Jihad demonstration, visit the laundry basket and provide yourself with the oldest and smelliest socks, the ones you know you ought to throw out and replace anyway. Make them all nice and soggy-wet (since wetness will spread those kafir germs even further) and store in a plastic bag for ease of carriage.
Then, when the Mohammedan shoes start flying, the icky sweaty socks can come flying back from the other side. Splat! Splat! Splat!
Come on guys. We have to think laterally. And we have to think MOCKERY. Ali Sina has said that mockery is best to prick the bubbles.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOIaG2kA5bY
This is a youtube video I just got from a Christian Arab I made. I think every liberal must be forced to watch it.
Thank you for that video, Ethoman. I enjoy that dude but he changes his YouTube channel all the time so he's hard to follow.
Well, I would like to go there, might find a good pair of shoes. If this is the best they can do, they will lose for sure.
what is sickening is how little the Non Muslems protesting (around the western world) know about Islam. Ignorance is bliss?
When these shoes and slippers are collected and pictured, will it look like the photo of the shoes collected from the Jews on their way to the gas chambers?
I was at a party last Friday (not a single muslim in sight, BTW)and I happened on to a discussion about the Middle East situation. Words like "occupation" "bombing innocent civilians" "Israel is the terrorist" "peaceful muslims" were banded about with gay abandon. I just walked away in sheer disgust.
Kind of think the anti-Semitic conversations that may have taken place in the salubrious surroundings of Berlin and Munich circa 1938.
Good.
Let the dumb asses go barefoot.
It will be easier for the cops to chase them down so they can beat (or shoot) and handcuff them.
Those disgusting, anti-Semitic thugs are mindless.
Let them go shoeless as well.
All of those A holes had better realize--before they try to get too crazy over here--that they will get a potent comeuppance if they try to perpetrate their criminal insanity here.
I think these shoes were bought to the rally specially for throwing, possibly in a plastic bag. Not even Muslims would be that stupid to remove the shoes they were wearing would they? The word 'throwing-shoes' can now be incorporated into the Oxford English Dictionary to mean: shoes thrown at a person or government establishment to express displeasure or to emphasis a political point.
The forensic unit of the Met. police have a wealth of genetic material to collect and track down the owners of the shoes. The fines for littering could be substantial.
Well that a LOT OF SHOES, MO(Piss BUH) really must be blessed to get all those shoes thrown on him must be nasty.
Damn these bastards,Islamic pigs. Israiel must not get out till these thugs are burried deep. The westerners who are supporting the palestinians are not doing any good, once they finish off with the jews they will come for you.
This has noting to do with palestine/Israiel, Its a war of ISLAM against the civilised world. The whole ISLAMIC World is taking the side of the paleatinians/Hamas and as always the weatern/non- muslim world is divided. No one speaks about the 1000's of rockets that Hamas fired all these years randomly to kill any israili/jews. The response israil is giving is what it should have done years ago. Go and get as many rats as u can israil.
Europe, Australia, US and canada well after seeing the savages on your streets hope u do know what will happen one day to your beautiful countries if ISLAM will dominate. UK its time to wake up, before its too late.
I have no problem with muslims who do not beleive in islam. It is islam that is nothing but terrorism. Unfortunately, most muslims believe in islam and that makes them impirrically terrorists.
Moderate muslims who are simply born muslims but do not believe in islam do not participate in these protest.
Almost all muslims who participate in these protests are terrorists.
We need thousands of police men to defend Americans from these protesting islamic terrorists. In one of these protests hundreds of Americans will be killed or enjured. When it happrens some will say we did not know that they would go violent. If I know it (I am an average American) why don't the police know that.
They can prevent hundreds of Americans from being killed or injured at the hands of islamic violent protesters. My guess is that they will wait until after few good Americans are killed here in our own homeland and react afterwards.
Could this whole offensive be an after effect of the shoe incident? Bush basically saying go ahead, do as you please, the ungrateful bastards?
No matter what anyone here says it is clear this is a major blunder by Israel. It will make Hamas stronger, Fatah weaker and will not make an iota of difference to the security of southern Israeli towns.
So why is Israel doing this? Makes no sense to me.
Of course, not all the protesters were Muslims (very easy and convenient to beleive so). The protest was organised by the Stop the War coalition, I believe there were 3 Jewish groups involved as well. And it was the organisers that told people to bring old shoes.
Turn out was massive, 10s of thousands turned up, politicians, celebs and everyday folk (Muslims AND Non-Muslims).
Israel has already lost half the war. Israel keeps cutting itself off from the rest of the World, they have very little support anywhere. People are openly calling for a boycott of Israeli goods.
It's shocking how mis-informed some of the posters here are, you really think people were throwing their own shoes?
There was this one English dude that managed to launch a shoe over the Police, google it.
mohamad
One of the most disgusting things about these anti-israel demos is the sight of liberal leftie luvvies like Alexei Sayle and Annie Lennox rubbing shoulders with Allah Akbar shouting, misogynist, jew-hating, kuffr despising cut-throat Islamsits who would like nothing more than the annihilation of jews and kuffar and the destructioin of the whole secular world and its replacement with 600 AD Arab culture and practise dressed as sharia.
Mohammmed - go back to your desert where you belong.
Look at all that Al-Taqiyya in his comments above! Yeah, Jewish groups were involved, right! LOL
Bravo Israel! You are winning! Keep demolishing the Barbarian Hitlerian Mohammedans!
darcy
But there were Jewish groups involved. Sadly. In fact the demostartors were probably only 50% muslim if not less.
Gorgi - WHY would Jewish groups be involved?
Mohammad: There were NOT '10s of thousands' of people there and neither is it true that Israel has very little support in this country!
People are not calling openly for a boycott of Israeli goods - apart from the Mohammadans!
Please don't drag us all down to your level!
The only people who are neither liked nor trusted by the majority of Brits are Islamists. We are wise to your little games - you don't fool us!
Our politicians are traitors and would sell their souls for a barrel of oil, but we are watching you with grave concern.
By the way, 'shoe throwing' has never been known in this country - it is not an English custom, so who were the 'organisers'? What ethnicity?
Darcy
Some of these groups do it out of political convictions. They are more Marxist than they are Jewish. The fact Hamas is as Marxist as the Pope doesnt seem to bother them. Others are committed pacifists who vehemently believe any war is fundamentally wrong and must be opposed.
I am not sure but I think one group were ultra-orthodox Jews who believe the very existence of Israel itself as a Nation State is a heresy.
Complex world isnt it Darcy?
"One of the most disgusting things about these anti-israel demos is the sight of liberal leftie luvvies like Alexei Sayle and Annie Lennox rubbing shoulders with Allah Akbar shouting, misogynist, jew-hating, kuffr despising cut-throat Islamsits who would like nothing more than the annihilation of jews and kuffar and the destructioin of the whole secular world and its replacement with 600 AD Arab culture and practise dressed as sharia."
You are clueless. These demos bring together many different groups, people of different religions, cultures and political viewpoints, amongst the Muslims you had Sunnis, Shias, political, non-political etc. To make such a generalisation is nothing but a joke. You are merely sticking your head in the sand.
The penny drops.
"Gorgi - WHY would Jewish groups be involved?"
Maybe because not all Jews support Israeli aggression?... It is wrong to lump all Jews, Muslims and Christians into little boxes, the situation in the Mid-East and elsewhere is not Black and White, nothing is ever that simple.
You are quite correct. It did bring the Socialists, the Communists, the Conservatives, the Liberals, the Labourites, the Anti Nazi League,the Anarchists, the Nihilists, the Sunnis, the Shias, the Salafists, the Wahabists, the Muslim Brotherhoods, the Jihadists - everyone against Israel and the West.
It was quite a soiree infact. Everyone who had the luxury of living in a safe and peaceful society, created upon the deaths of many who sacrificed themselves in the name of democracy and freedom were there. Those who grew up with a free education, free healthcare, a free benefits and social security system were all there to denounce the very essence what gave them their peaceful existence.
The left were there, arm in arm with the Islamists, to rip apart democracy and freedom and abandon all humanity and the advancement of the human race in order to instil a New World Order under the Ummah and back to the 7th Century oppressive, regime.
Remove Islam from the UK and yes it includes you Mohammad. You will never fit into Western Culture for the simple fact that you are a Muslim and therefore conflict will always ensue as you try to force us to accept your backward, death cult as our main ideology further to be controlled by the religious zealots of this world.
mohamed
I can understand ordinary Muslims and leftie luvvies demonstrating side by side in their self-righteous unity to oppose Israe(in the case of Muslims) and America(in the case of Luvvies).
But you fully well know I am not talking about ordinary Muslims. I'm talking about people who are committed to the annihilation of Jews and other Kuffars and taking over the world and bringing it under Sharia by force.
A judeophobic world gone mad. Israel should just line up bulldozers along a line the width of Gaza's northern border, which is only about 5 miles wide. They should then start slowly driving south, flattening anything and everything in their path. Gaza is only about 25 miles long, north to south, similar to the distance from Dover to Calais or Long Beach to Catalina. Going slowly enough to allow people to flee into Egypt or Jordan, at a rate of 1/10 mph the entire "country" could be flattened in less then two weeks. Israel would have to take measures to ensure that the displaced don't wend their way back to the West bank, or to board flights or ships to Europe or the U.S., for which we should provide all possible assistance to Israel. End of problem.
"Remove Islam from the UK and yes it includes you Mohammad. You will never fit into Western Culture for the simple fact that you are a Muslim and therefore conflict will always ensue as you try to force us to accept your backward, death cult as our main ideology further to be controlled by the religious zealots of this world."
Nonsense. You're implying that all Muslims (a minority) are trying to force Non-Muslims (the majority) to follow and believe in their ideology?
That is laughable. Even if it was true, I myself (a practising Muslim) would oppose it. You must understand there are Muslims out there that are normal people, just like everyone else walking the streets. The moment you can understand this very simple point the better, it will most probably help reduce your stress levels and high blood pressure.
You do not represent the West, this board and the majority of its posters are outsiders with no real say in anything. You do not know what the West represents because you are blinded by your hatred against a made-up enemy. Are there some problems with immigrants in the UK? Yes, is there extremism in the UK? Yes there is some - however a lot has been done over the last few years to discredit extremist organisations etc. Al-Muhajiroun, HT etc. This has been done primarily by other Muslims.
You might not think being Muslim and a good UK citizen are compatible, the truth is Muslims think there is no contradiction, and that is all that matters. The vast majority of Muslims live their lives peacefully, just like normal every-day people.
mohamad
Of course there are ordinary Muslims like you who just want to get on with their lives like everybody else. Anyone who cant accept that has got issues he/she needs to deal with.
But the fact you seem to be in denial about is that the likes of you are fast becoming a minority not only in Britain and Europe but in Islamic homelands where the snarling suicidal homicidal maniacs are on the ascendancy.
No wonder the world is scared of Islam, and increasingly of Muslims. And what scares you you often hate and i think that is starting to happen all over the world now. there is backlash of hatred against Islamsit hatred.
Mohammad,
If a Nationalist government did get in(hopefully) then all Muslims would be removed from the UK and if not your Mosques and Halal shops would be removed and Muslims in the UK would then start facing the rightful persecution that your Islamic countries impose on Christians and other faiths.
The simple fact that to be a peaceful Muslim means that you are not in fact a Muslim. You are a Christian as there is nothing peaceful in Islam. Many readers in JW will agree with me on that. Islam is a death cult, a blood thirsty oppressive, barbarous ideology created by a schizophrenic madman who slept with pre pubescant girls and hacked off people's heads in their hundreds. There was nothing peaceful or tolerant about Mohammed.
So Mohammed, there comes the question, as a practicing Muslim, it means that you must follow the Koran. By following the Koran and the teachings of Mohammad it means that your 'religion' is the only true religion, those not Muslim are kufars, the jews and christians are the sons of the apes and the pigs, that we should submit to Islam and if not pay the jizyah. You are in the West to create the Ummah. You are here to Islamise and not to live in peace and harmony.
Now if you don't believe in the above then it means that you are not a Muslim. The true and real Muslims are in fact the Jihadists, the Islamists, the Al Qaeda supporters, the Al Mujaharoons, the Hizb ut Tahrir's. They are following the teachings of Muhammad to the 'T'.
Therefore if we allow Islam to stay in the UK and grow then your oppressive, elitist, mysogenistic, homophobic ideology will grow also. There will be even more hatred towards Non Muslims, homosexuals, women and freedom of expression. There will be even more laws passed to protect your disgusting, stone-age, rhetoric teachings as you continue to force others Non Muslim into becoming Muslim.
I am not blinded by hatred of a made up enemy Muhammad. The enemy is very real indeed. It is called Islam and has been our enemy since its creation 1400 years ago.
The thing is, that you cannot see any different other than the religion you know to be Islam. That is how you have been programmed in life. You are not British. You may have been born here but you are a Muslim. Your loyalty is to Islam before Britain. Your duty is to protect Muslims before any other regardless where they may be. You are like the Borg, part of the collective, resistence is futile......
I hate nothing in life. I even respect Islam but I don't want it here. I want Islam in Islamic lands. You are not fit to co-exist in the West with people of freedom because Islam is all about oppression. It has been from day one.
Islam is a blight on the Western and free world. It should never have been allowed to have crawled out of its Islamic sh*tholes in the East. You are destroyers of freedom as the day you are taught the Koran is the day all freedom of thought and expression disappears.
Muhammad, there is not such a thing as a peaceful Muslim as Islam is certainly not a religion of peace. You really need to think about what you are and if you have no hatred in your heart, look upon Jews and Christian and all other religions as your brothers, would defend the UK and everything it is before a Muslim in a foreign land then you are by no means a Muslim, but instead a Christian as Christ preached peace and Muhammad hatred and oppression.
I think there are many confused Muslims out there. You are either a liar or you are a Christian, for you are not or ever will be a peaceful Muslim as that is an Oxymoron, as is British Muslim to go with it.
Think about it and please don't try and pull the wool over my eyes or others on here. We know what Islam is. It's a Death Cult. End of.
"...this board and the majority of its posters are outsiders with no real say in anything. You do not know what the West represents..."
Posted by Mohammad
With all due respect, Mo, you've got it exactly backwards. You are the outsider, and you insult the majority of the posters on this board by stating they do not know what the West represents. Maybe you have in mind a particular view of the West that is different from what the West has of itself. Please explain to us exactly what you think it is that the West does represent about which we are so ignorant.
P.S. Mohammed,
What do you think JihadWatch and DhimmiWatch are all about?
Yes, it certainly is a website to monitor Jihadists and radical Islam but more importantly it is an educational site to show just what Islam is an why there is this fantastical idea amongst the Western Journalists that Islam has been Radicalised. It's always been about RADICAL for goodness sake. Islam and Radicalism go together like strawberries and cream or curries, poppadoms & Nan bread.
Being a Muslim and looking at the West is like asking someone who's lived in a darkroom since birth asking them to tell us what's outside, having never left that room.
You miss the point about what this website is. This is not a pro Islam website. On the contrary it's its exact opposite. It is a website to destroy the myth that the West has of Islam as portrayed by our excptionally ignorant media, controlled by a government that's controlled by Saudi money.
I want Islam out of the West and as Islam grows so will many others until hopefully a time comes when agreement can be made to remove Islam once and for all. This will save future bloodshed as it will come and think about it, if Islam does decide to attack the West and go for control, it will be thoroughly beaten and a New Crusades will evolve where defeating Islam in the West will not be our only goal. We may start the 3rd World War and move into Islamic Lands to once and for all to end what should have happened one thousand years ago.
You are ignorant to not see that removing Islam from the West is best for Islam and the West. That is unless you think that the bloodshed of Millions if not billions is more appropriate because if Islam continues on its course this outcome is inevitable and trust me, Islam will lose and lose badly.
RtL, I think you probably scared him off.
That's a pity because I was enjoying watching you eviscerate his arguments and tear his double think Muslim logic to pieces.
Mohammed that pain you are feeling right now is called cognitive dissonance. Don't worry in the West we welcome the breaking down of faulty thought patterns and behaviors.
We here at JW invite you to throw of the shackles of your Muhammadanism, leave the insanity and barbarity behind and join the human race.
"If a Nationalist government did get in(hopefully) then all Muslims would be removed from the UK and if not your Mosques and Halal shops would be removed and Muslims in the UK would then start facing the rightful persecution that your Islamic countries impose on Christians and other faiths."
You and I both know that will never happen. The UK like other Western countries are democratic, free countries with a vast array of different cultures, religions, their is freedom of speech, religion, beliefs etc. there is law and order, respect and compared to so many other countries in the World, the way so many different people can get along is testement to British tolerance.
That stuff about persecution and forced removal of innocent people is morally wrong and illegal, it goes against the universal declaration of human rights. And you actually hope for all of this? who is the hateful one? who is the one wishing for bad things to happen to innocent people...
Their is too much overlap in Britain anyway, the forced removal of Asians, Whites and Blacks (Muslims) would wreak havoc. There is also the issue that Islam is a belief, it is not a race, you cannot outlaw and ban a religion, it doesn't work.
"The simple fact that to be a peaceful Muslim means that you are not in fact a Muslim. You are a Christian as there is nothing peaceful in Islam."
Okay, that is YOUR understanding.
Not MY understanding, or the understanding of over a billion Muslims who practice their religion peacefully, my point? your point of view regarding this issue is irrelevant.
"Many readers in JW will agree with me on that. Islam is a death cult, a blood thirsty oppressive, barbarous ideology created by a schizophrenic madman who slept with pre pubescant girls and hacked off people's heads in their hundreds. There was nothing peaceful or tolerant about Mohammed."
Again, that is YOUR belief.
"Now if you don't believe in the above then it means that you are not a Muslim. The true and real Muslims are in fact the Jihadists, the Islamists, the Al Qaeda supporters, the Al Mujaharoons, the Hizb ut Tahrir's. They are following the teachings of Muhammad to the 'T'."
This has been said a million and one times by Islamophobes and a million and one times it has had no impact - because it is meaningless. How can you be taken seriously, you hope for the mass expulsion of innocent people, you hope their property is confiscated etc. you are trying to tell them what their religion teaches them, you are trying to teach them their own religion - not realising they study their own religion. The Islamic groups you have listed themselves differ in their Islamic beliefs, they have different viewpoints, they are not one and the same. Hezbollah is different to Hamas who are different to Al-Qaeda who are different to the Taliban who are different to the Iranians who are different to Fatah Al-Islam who are different to Hizb Ut-Tahrir who are different to the Mehdi Army, they all have different idealogies and beliefs, hell, they spend half their time fighting and killing eachother.
How do you expect to be taken seriously when you try to tell Muslims who best follows Islam?... Have you even thought about this point?
"I am not blinded by hatred of a made up enemy Muhammad. The enemy is very real indeed. It is called Islam and has been our enemy since its creation 1400 years ago.
The thing is, that you cannot see any different other than the religion you know to be Islam. That is how you have been programmed in life. You are not British. You may have been born here but you are a Muslim. Your loyalty is to Islam before Britain. Your duty is to protect Muslims before any other regardless where they may be. You are like the Borg, part of the collective, resistence is futile......"
Am I the enemy?...
"Muhammad, there is not such a thing as a peaceful Muslim as Islam is certainly not a religion of peace. You really need to think about what you are and if you have no hatred in your heart, look upon Jews and Christian and all other religions as your brothers, would defend the UK and everything it is before a Muslim in a foreign land then you are by no means a Muslim, but instead a Christian as Christ preached peace and Muhammad hatred and oppression."
I see all innocent, average people as my brothers, I would defend anything or anyone that is treated unjustly, I consider the UK to be home and it is Islam that has made these beliefs of mines strong.
Wow Richard that was some tour de force! I'm glad your on our side.
Mohammad,
Always a Mohammedan always, his loyalties are with the UMMAH. What RTL states are not beliefs but facts about the barbaric ideology of Islam. The Mohammedans follow the pedophile, mass rapist, mass murdering prophet Mohammad.
The taquiya and lies are always part of the Meccan Mohammedans they fear the Medinan Mohammedans that is why they will never contradict the Medinan Mohammedans. This is the duality that exists in this pathetic and vile ideology of Islam. The Medinan Koran always trumps the Meccan Koran. The rule of abrogation. Medina is where their thug and chief Mohammad slaughtered the Jews. This is where he began his evil and violent ways.
So Mohammad keeps lying and trying to deceive the infidels who he now lives with in Britain.
@ Mohammad:
"Of course, not all the protesters were Muslims (very easy and convenient to beleive so). "
From the pictures I've seen, the protesters were mostly Muslims with only a few Westerners.
"Israel has already lost half the war."
If that's true then why are Muslims crying about the TERRIBLE MASSACRE! THOUSANDS DEAD! GENOCIDE! POOR US! Puhleeze, you can't even get your stories straight.
"amongst the Muslims you had Sunnis, Shias, political, non-political etc."
But they are united when it comes to hating Israel. In fact, Muslims are notorious for using scapegoating as a way to close ranks against the kuffar.
"the situation in the Mid-East and elsewhere is not Black and White, nothing is ever that simple."
There may be complexities on the surface but at the heart of it, it's very simple. Islam wants to annihilate Israel while Israel just wants to exist in peace. We must not let the obfuscations blind us to the rights and wrongs of the matter.
"You must understand there are Muslims out there that are normal people, just like everyone else walking the streets. "
I've met plenty of Muslims and I can tell you hardly one of them is normal. Just because you don't go around killing people or blowing yourself up doesn't mean you're normal. Muslims are supremacists to a man and all of them suffer from delusions about Islam to some extent, even the liberal ones.
"Others are committed pacifists who vehemently believe any war is fundamentally wrong and must be opposed."
Posted by: Gorgi at January 4, 2009 9:21 AM
So where were they when Israel was getting pounded? Where were they during the Mumbai massacres? Their hypocrisy disgusts me.
Mohammad, glad to see you hanging in there. You seem like a decent, thoughtful man making a genuine attempt to wrestle with some very thorny issues that have emerged as a result of massive influx of Muslims into Western lands.
If you've been reading this board for any length of time, you will know there are certain issues that we have with Islam that come up repeatedly, but for which defenders of Islam never seem able to respond without becoming defensive or angry, sometimes issuing threats. So that we might know better where you're coming from, perhaps you wouldn't mind sharing with us your thoughts about them. A small sampling of them are:
1. Definition of "innocent." Time and again we see statements from Muslim apologists about Islamic injunctions against warfare that involve injury to "innocents." This term in Western circles does not carry religious connotations and is automatically taken to mean noncombatants of all kinds. Yet, some of us know that in Islam "innocent" refers only to Muslims, with all kafirs considered to be "guilty" by default, and subject to all kinds of humiliations without recrimination. We also know that you know this, which makes Muslim statements about "innocents" disingenuous if not outright dishonest.
Care to give us a straightforward, non-disingenuous, non-taqiyya-laced answer about who are considered to be "innocents" in your view?
2. The claims of Islamic jurisdiction over all lands once part of Dar-al-Islam but which have since fallen away, such as Andalusia?
3. Historic claims to Middle Eastern lands by Jews and Christians that precede the conquest by Islam? With this, could you comment on the status of the Al-Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem, which sits atop Solomon's Temple? This is where Mohammad was supposed to have made his night journey to heaven, yet it is known that Jerusalem wasn't even conquered by Muslim forces until about five years after Mohammad's death, hence no mosque while he was alive. The time line of the narrative of Islam therefore doesn't seem to square with historical facts.
4. Are you willing to swear an oath of allegiance to the nation state where you reside, even if it conflicts with your religious beliefs? Here, of course, I'm referring to the concept of separation of the domains of religious and state power. You don't need to split hairs here with issues of morality. I'm speaking of things like uniform laws against polygamy and honor killings that have crept into the West because of immigration from Muslim lands where they are practiced freely.
5. Do you approve of the establishment of "protected areas" in the West where Sharia laws would take precedence over civil, secular laws?
6. Do you think reciprocity should apply in issues of religious freedom? Should Christians be allowed to build churches in Saudi Arabia, and to freely proselytize and practice, just as mosques are allowed to built in Western countries and Muslims are allowed to conduct da'wa?
I'm sure other posters here could extend this list of questions. Comments?
"Everyone who had the luxury of living in a safe and peaceful society, created upon the deaths of many who sacrificed themselves in the name of democracy and freedom were there."
Posted by: Richard the Lionheart at January 4, 2009 9:53 AM
Richard, these people should be sent packing with a one-way ticket to Dar al-Islam where they can enjoy their full dhimmitude without pesky Western concepts like freedom and equality getting in the way. Let the West be open to all freedom-loving people regardless of race and let all who disagree with these values fuck off to Islamic lands.
I'm sure other posters here could extend this list of questions. Comments?
Posted by: Eastview [TypeKey Profile Page] at January 4, 2009 1:43 PM
Eastview, I am sure this is so, but lets not over egg the pudding, your questions are more than sufficient and well considered enough to get the ball rolling.
How about it Mohammad, can you answer the questions honestly?
km,
Unfortunately I don't think I have as you can no doubt see. However give him his due, he hasn't launched into a tirade of abuse although I have been called the classic "Islamaphobe". Odd that considering a phobia is an irrational fear and yet my fear(or should I say concern) of Islam is a very rational one.
Mohammad,
You have spoken the above the epitome of western culture and the very culture that Islam is trying to destroy within. I really think you are confused about your religion as Islam holds none of the above to be true. I think you need a reality check and even better a religion check for if you truly believe the above then you are no Muslim, then again if you are a true Muslim as you state then your taquiya is exceptional and Gramsci would be very proud, not forgetting your prophet Muhammad. It is something that happens in all Islamic Countries. It oddly enough started with Muhammad and has been going on throughout time under Islam. I certainly won't deny that the same has been done with Christians too, but then we had the reformation which put many wrongs to right and those things done in Christ's name were wrong as that was certainly not what he preached, however Muhammad on the other hand did. I hope for the complete removal of Islam from the West before the bloodshed arises, for there will be. It has already been seen throughout time that Islam can live in peace when their population in Non Muslim countries stays at around 2%. However as Islam grows so does its desire for total supremacy and every single land in this world now Muslim is testamony to just this. The same is happening in many African countries as Islam grows so does its desire for complete control and dominance under Islam. The bad things I am wishing for Islam are in fact for their own safety as if Islam is NOT removed from the UK and the West soon to Islamic Lands where they can live in their own culture and religion then bloodshed will ensue and many Muslims will be slaughtered. Islam is an inferior sub culture. You miss the points I make. The forceful removal of Muslims would happen if they did not sell up and go. They would be housed and shipped off to Islamic Lands. Britain is not Muslims nor ever will it be their home. Our culture is your complete opposite in all and everything and I say what I say for world peace. You can't see that the longer Islam stays in the West and grows the time bomb of Western Cultural anger ticks away and when that day comes Islam in the West will follow the same path as the Dodo. On the contrary any government can institute whatever measures it deems necessary for the overall benefit and security of the country. At the moment our country is being sold to Saudi and controlled by Brussels. If however we remove Saudi and leave the EU then we would not recognise the Human Rights Courts and they could huff and puff and blow all they like but when it comes to us removing Islam they will have no power over us. Unlike Europe, the UK is an Island and far easier to defend than landlocked countries. Also you forget one major issue, there are many people in the EU sick of it and Islam and so if Britain starts to evict Islam then the chances are so to will other EU countries. We can outlaw Islam. We can knock down all Mosques/Halal meat shops. Anyone preaching Islam would be imprisoned. There are many things we could do, that would be no different to what Islam has done throughout its 1400 year life. Remove Islam from the West and you immediately destroy the Islamic Terrorist threat and Islamisation threat. It is very possible and if Islam didn't leave peacefully then they'd be forcefully removed. I would not like to see that day but when it did then I've no doubt that it would work. Sure there would be bloodshed but then that's what happens when liberal twits decided to allow intolerant ideologies to exist alongside tolerant ones. What do you mean innocent? You are a Muslim for goodness sake. Your ideology comes from the teachings of a bloodthirsty warlord, who realised that in order to dominate people was to first gain wealth(butchering of the Jewish and theft of their gold) and then create a belief to unite them all - ISLAM. This is what makes me laugh about Islam, Muhammad was the polar opposite of Christ. Christ didn't want a religion, he wanted people to be free and good and would be disgusted to see just what became of his teachings, the creation of a Church that bulldozed over many cultures all around the world. However, if Muhammad came back he'd be angry that Muslims were not butchering and killing more and the worldwide Caliphate was not complete! You have spoken of confiscation of property and not I. All their property would be sold and they would receive the moneys to live in Islam. They just wouldn't be allowed to live here. What do you mean I'm trying to teach them their own religion? Is Islam not the teachings of the Holy prophet Muhammad and his life? Was he not the word of God? Are you stating then that the life of Muhammad and his teachings are not what Islam teaches? All the groups I have mentioned all have many things in common. They hate Jews, Christianity and the West. They want the World to be Islamised. There are all of course Muslim and part of Islam, part of the Collective that is the Nation of Islam and the protection of Islam and Muslims is always above anything else on their list. I am not the only person on this site who has spoken this way. Sure there are many here who do not agree in the expulsion of Islam, but when it comes to everything else I've written about Islam many, if not all will agree. I am saying nothing different to what they have all said. I do not want to delve deeper but we all know what Islam is on here. JihadWatch is an archive of many, many articles on Islam and Muslims. I've thought about Islam many times. I've thought how on earth could we have been so stupid to have allowed such a despicable ideology to have not just grown in the West but COME to the West. Everything about Islam is wrong. It is a totalitarian ideology, hellbent on male control and oppression over women. It is written in the Koran that women were created for men. We see this everyday as pepperpots walk down the streets looking out of letterbox slits. Not only have Islam in the West managed to allow this dressing of women, they've actually managed to brainwash them into believing that it's liberating! Anyone who is a Muslim, inherently following Islam is an enemy not just to the West, but to the free thinking people and countries of the World. Islam is a cult that should never have got past the 8th Century. Islam's survival has been down to the fact that some lucky arabs happened to be sitting on the largest oil reserves in the World. They have used their money to corrupt Western politicians into allowing their death cult to prosper. Exceptionally sad indeed. You can say whatever you like, but I do not believe a word that you say. Islam is in the West for Islamisation and your use of taquiya would be congratulated by Muhammad himself. The thing is Mohammed that, I hear this everyday, I watch the TV and watch Muslims speak this and that and as soon as the cameras are off, out comes the true intent, the exact opposite of what they've said. I will always remain true and fight for the complete removal of Islam in the West, because until that day comes, the West will always be under threat from Islamic Terror and Islamisation.Tommo,
Thanks, but I'm saying no different to some of the other great posters on here.
Truthbetold,
I completely agree with you. It is time that our liberal left started experiencing what it's like to be a minority in an Islamic Land. When they have and if they survive then I'm sure there opinions would drastically change.
Look at this this way: when those islamic sons of bitches are dumb enough to lose their shoes, then the statistical probability that some of them will cut their feet and therefore get an infection and die of say infection rises.
Attention islamic world: please throw all of your shoes.
Thank you.
Here's some more for the list:
Since jihad is incumbent upon all Muslims, what is "your jihad?"
Do you believe in Muslim supremacy? Do you agree with Islam's teachings, which constitute the vast majority of your texts, that non-Muslims are vile, evil, inferior, apes and pigs, and exist for the sole purpose of being plundered, enslaved, extorted, raped, tortured, and murdered?
Do you believe in the complete equality of all people, male and female, Muslim and non-Muslim, in all spheres of life?
Do you believe in killing apostates? If your friend had apostacized would you try to talk him out of it or would you be a decent human being, congratulate him for his capacity for independent thought and action, and respect his decision, not just outwardly?
Where does your zakat money go? Can you vouch for the fact that not a single penny of it ever went to an Islamic "charity" as it is supposed to? If not, you are a terrorist and should be deported.
Do you pray out loud? This is important because doing so, thereby pledging allegiance to the Ummah and not to your country of residence, constitutes treasonous sedition. If you pray out loud your are not innocent. I don't believe in prosecuting thought crimes, so merely thinking them is okay.
Do you support any aspect of Sharia? If so, you are guilty of treasonous sedition and an indefensibly sick human being.
Do you agree that free-world, man-made laws are unarguably far superior to Sharia and agree to submit to every single one of them to the letter, including not uttering Islamic prayers aloud?
Do you admit that 99% of the mosques in America, Canada, Europe, and North Africa are Ikhwan-run sleeper cells and should be bulldozed, should have their assets seized, and that any Muslim who so much as sneezes at that is guilty of treasonous sedition and should be deported?
Do you admit that Islam encourages nothing but intolerable behavior?
Do you admit that Perv Mo was an indefensible monster, a child molester, a rapist, a mass murderer, a thief, an extortionist, a necrophiliac, a narcissist, and a complusive liar? If not, you're a sick person. If so, why are you a Muslim?
Do you admit that morality is universal, objective, applies to all people equally, and essentially consists of the Golden Rule? If not, go back to kindergarten.
Do you admit that Islam has not a single moral teaching, only evil and lessons in hypocrisy and narcissism?
You're either a decent human being or you're a Muslim but you can't be both. Which is it?
"1. Definition of "innocent." Time and again we see statements from Muslim apologists about Islamic injunctions against warfare that involve injury to "innocents." This term in Western circles does not carry religious connotations and is automatically taken to mean noncombatants of all kinds. Yet, some of us know that in Islam "innocent" refers only to Muslims, with all kafirs considered to be "guilty" by default, and subject to all kinds of humiliations without recrimination. We also know that you know this, which makes Muslim statements about "innocents" disingenuous if not outright dishonest."
During a war, an innocent person is someone not engaged in combat. I think it would be easier to state who is NOT innocent, the Prophet forbade killing anyone not actively fighting against you, that is physically fighting against you, everyone else is innocent. There are many different Islamist groups out there so I can understand why you ask this question, they all have different views of what innocent means. The Salafi/Wahabi - Takfiri movements for example believe anyone that takes part in an form of voting becomes liable to be killed, hence the attacks by such groups on polling booths and a failure to recognise Governments in countries around the World, including Muslim countries.
They would say everyone in the UK that pays taxes is guilty (as these taxes go to the war effort in Afghanistan) etc. This would include Muslims as we pay taxes too, just like they would if they lived in the UK. I debate people who have these sorts of beliefs and tie them in knots, they themselves contribute to the country they declare their hate, yet they support football teams from this country, they watch movies from here, listen to music, enjoy the attractions, go to schools, unis etc. They have very little credibility. Sorry for going off topic. As far as I see it, everyone is innocent until they come to fight against you, you cannot go killing people without any justification. It can only be allowed when your life is under immediate threat.
"2. The claims of Islamic jurisdiction over all lands once part of Dar-al-Islam but which have since fallen away, such as Andalusia?"
That is now Spain. It is not Muslim, Muslims have no say or right over there. You can't just go there and tell people to move over.
"3. Historic claims to Middle Eastern lands by Jews and Christians that precede the conquest by Islam? With this, could you comment on the status of the Al-Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem, which sits atop Solomon's Temple? This is where Mohammad was supposed to have made his night journey to heaven, yet it is known that Jerusalem wasn't even conquered by Muslim forces until about five years after Mohammad's death, hence no mosque while he was alive. The time line of the narrative of Islam therefore doesn't seem to square with historical facts."
Its always difficult with this issue, how far do we go back? If this issue was to arise their would be turmoil the World over. Palestinians deserve their rights, they need a homeland, saying that the Israelis cannot just be expelled, that is there home now as well. Jerusalem in my view must be shared by all. Muslims, Christians and Jews.
"4. Are you willing to swear an oath of allegiance to the nation state where you reside, even if it conflicts with your religious beliefs? Here, of course, I'm referring to the concept of separation of the domains of religious and state power. You don't need to split hairs here with issues of morality. I'm speaking of things like uniform laws against polygamy and honor killings that have crept into the West because of immigration from Muslim lands where they are practiced freely."
Yes. I'd like to add that polygamy is not widespread in Muslim countries, I personally could not marry more than 1 woman, don't know who could in this day and age. And honour killings are just wrong, no way to justify that. I see no contradiction, these things will never be allowed and they never should be.
"5. Do you approve of the establishment of "protected areas" in the West where Sharia laws would take precedence over civil, secular laws?"
That wouldn't work. And it would not be good for UK, the same laws need to apply to everyone. The issue with Sharia law was regarding only certain aspects of civil law like marriage, inheritance etc. Dual systems cannot work.
"6. Do you think reciprocity should apply in issues of religious freedom? Should Christians be allowed to build churches in Saudi Arabia, and to freely proselytize and practice, just as mosques are allowed to built in Western countries and Muslims are allowed to conduct da'wa?"
Yes. The issue here is with leadership, the leaders of Arab nations are dictators, supported by the US. Their security forces run their countries with an iron fist, they choke the freedom of their own people, they restrict them and we have all seen what this leads to (extremism). When these guys are thrown from their thrones and proper leadership is in place I am sure this cycle will be broken.
Mohammad,
You are a liar. A good one at that! Your taquiya and deception is very good. A true Mohammedan. The Meccan type. Of course you would not dare stop those Islamic Jihadis wanting to bomb planes, hotels, etc. Oh I know they pay taxes so they are guilty.
You are sick! A lover of the pedophile who banged a six year old girl and raped women in front their husbands and then decapitated them in front of their husbands. Yes defend your prophet the pervert Mohammad. That is the innocent which you mean.
And my questions, Mohammad?
Not just the above ones, either. You say that Islam forbids killing people who aren't attacking you. You must concede that Islam spread by the sword. Not even willful ignorance could account for one believing otherwise. Islam spread by killing people. How did it get to India? Why were 80 million people killed in jihad just in India if Islam forbids killing people and the Muslims were there for the express purpose of stealing the land and instituting Sharia, since Muslims can only live among kafirs for the express purpose of doing this? The Jews of the Khaybar Oasis and the Banu Quaryza? They were both attacked while unarmed in unprovoked night raids. If Islam forbids killing non-combatants, and no Jews in Arabia ever attacked Muslims offensively (which they unarguably did not), why did Mohammad kill or order the murder of every Jew in Arabia?
Is it because you believe that no non-Muslim is innocent and that we exist for the sole purpose of being killed, tortured, plundered, raped, enslaved, and extorted and you're lying? Or do you admit that the Koran and Hadith obligate you to do all of the above to every non-Muslim you encounter? Which is it? Do we exist for the sole purpose of being killed, tortured, plundered, raped, enslaved, and extorted, and you're a liar or do your texts say that (still making you a liar) and Islam is sheer evil? Which kind of liar are you?
All the calls for genocide upon people you don't even know who never attacked you in Sura 9 alone? Care to explain those in light of your insane and absurd lie above?
You also de facto defended polygamy. Most Muslims don't have multiple sex slaves ("wives" in Muslimese) because sex slaves are bought and Islam induces poverty through no education, bad education, wrong education, and a prohibition against ever engaging in hard work with the exception of murder, torture, rape, plunder, and extortion. They have one sex slave because they can only afford one. Do you admit that anyone who would ever consider or defend polygamy is a disgusting, vile, subhuman barbarian by definition and without exception? Are you a disgusting, vile, subhuman barbarian or do you condemn polygamy under all circumstances along with every single aspect of Sharia, all of which are in direct conflict with civilization and actual morality, and could only hypothetically appeal to the most inbred of child-molesting Nazi terrorists?
Sorry if I come across as harsh, but that's me. There is good in this world and there is evil and, yes, Mohammad, it is ALWAYS perfectly black-and-white and absolutely crystal clear. If it conflicts with the Golden Rule in any way, it's evil. Full stop. Real evil is looking pure evil (Islam) in the face and accepting it.
Hmm.....
Point 4 Mohammed. I find it convenient that you haven't answered the first part
Care to answer it please?LIAR MOHAMMAD --
I concur with savsiv and jdamn in everything they stated to you, so ditto to you; also, there's a video with your name on it from this thread:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/024240.php#comments
A must see for everyone on this planet!!
ALL the videos at the DHFC are fantastic. I've re-educated a few people with that very one. Jihad in Academia would be my second favorite, followed by Jimmy Carter's War on the Jews. And the Mein Kampf one. Terrorismawareness.org forever. By the way, their link to Fitna is short enough for a t-shirt and easy-to-remember. I put it on one under a pic of Geert Wilders.
"the Prophet forbade killing anyone not actively fighting against you, that is physically fighting against you, everyone else is innocent"
from the snake oil salesman
Problem with this is that Satan's Spawn considers anyone not submitting to islam, or paying the jizyz (like a good dhimmi should) as someone who is fighting against islam. LOL, so the kuffar that just stand around and not physically protect themselves from mulsim aggression, well, they are the innocent ones. Gotta love it, eh?
Mohammad, thank you for your straightforward answers that are as calmly delivered as one could reasonably expect in a forum such as this where you are surrounded by hostiles. You strike me as an educated and honorable man with good intentions. It occurs to me that you might consider posting here as engaging in a form of da'wa, but if so I'd be the first to say that it is a refreshing change from the usual foul-mouthed screechers we get. I hope you stick around for a while to catch the ebb and flow of this forum. There are some amazingly knowledgeable and powerful posters here who will challenge you in ways that you might not like.
As you know we here tend to be somewhat partisan toward Israel, not because we are Jewish, which most of us are not, but because we respect the Jews for their culture, intelligence, positive contributions to world civilization, and their amazing capacity to survive under the most adverse circumstances. We, like they, also have an affinity for Western civilization and become concerned when we see its foundations being eroded by forces who would like to see it weakened or destroyed.
Most of us also feel that, in the present conflict in the ME, it is the Israelis who have exercised great restraint in the face of near daily rocket attacks by terrorists dedicated to their destruction. Since Hamas refuses to act responsibly as a good citizen of the world, Israel is completely justified in taking whatever action is required to make it stop.
BTW, I am still curious about your thoughts on the historical authenticity of al-Aqsa (Number 3 in my list of questions). The problem boils down to two religions claiming the same physical space as a holy site. Because of the problem with the timeline in the Muslim narrative (Jerusalem could not possibly be the "farthest mosque" referred to in the Qur'an for the origin of the night flight on Buraq, since no mosque existed there during the prophet's lifetime), one finds that sentiment here is that the Jews have a better claim to the site, as that of Solomon's Temple, than does Islam.
What say you about this?
Eastview,
He completely ignored the first part of Question 4 regarding loyalty to the Nation state above all other? Do you not find that exceptionally convenient that he did so[for him]? Do you not also feel that his ignoring of the question, possibly one of the most important questions in fact was that if he did give a truthful answer then we'd understand just what he really was?
Yes, I caught that, too, and if he decides to come back I hope he'll fill in the holes. Also, I hope others appreciate that he is not a semi-literate such as "nose" or what's-his-name, and capable of carrying on a more rational discussion than those bozos. Even if you don't agree with him, he deserves a more respectful reception than what he's getting.
Eastview,
I showed him no disrespect, I merely told him that I wanted Islam out of the west once and for all. Of course he would take offence by it, but then so would a fox if it was removed from a chicken coup!
I give everyone the respect they deserve but really when it comes to Muslims, I take everything they say with a pinch of salt and watch what their hands are doing at all times.
About the respect part, I wasn't referring to you, RtL. And I'm completely in accord with your sentiments about Muslims and the West. However, they're already here, so the question becomes how either to assimilate them or induce them to leave. There are many fence riders in Islam, especially among the educated, who could be tipped if handled with kid gloves, but full on confrontation all the time, all day, every day, tends to be counterproductive. Think good cop, bad cop, if you will. Of course, Mohammad, since you're reading this, too, what's your take on it?
Eastview, he defended polygamy, evaded your questions and mine, and really the substance of all the ones he "answered," and then, in typical Mohammedan, spineless, back-handed fashion, said that our laws were stupid and allowed him to perpetrate his evil which he implied he would continue to use against us. He was wrong about that, at least in theory, he taqiyya-ed his way through here in the most pathetic manner with the most blatant lies, and I called him on it. I'm sorry but I can't cut people who defend Islam any slack because they simply don't deserve it, reasonably literate or no. In fact, I find guys like him and Abdullah Mikhail to be far more dangerous and far more offensive than Fancy and Nose and their kind because they don't come out swinging and do manage to put a semi-decent veneer on the most despicable crimes against humanity. He prays for our death, destruction, and subjugation 5 times a day, he finances terrorism with 2.5% of his income, and then he has the nerve to present himself as a decent human being. I cannot accept that, but I can mock and humiliate people who do that and I can use their own idiotic words against them and will continue to do so until they admit that they're wrong and apostacize. Any respect granted to that creep is completely undue. Nonetheless, I must say that I admire your even-handedness.
jdamn, I don't cut everybody this kind of slack, but to get into their minds ya gotta keep them talking and not run them away. Much as I enjoyed piling on nose and fancy along with everyone else, those were cheap thrills that didn't really accomplish much, since those pathetic little turds obviously were only engaging in drive-by harassment on this site and deserved getting trounced.
Mo is obviously a more capable and worthy debater, and, with all due respect, his responses to my questions were much more thoughtful than those of Abdullah Mikhail's by many leagues. For one thing, he didn't spout either Qur'anic or Biblical verses like AM, as if this is somehow supposed to confer authority and legitimacy on whatever point he was trying to make, and only serves to piss me off. Yes, Mo's responses not unexpectedly carried echoes of Muslim talking points, but in several instances they were not unreasonable. And you, obviously, aren't going to be seduced by any smooth talking taqiyaa spinmeister, as neither will most others on this site. Nevertheless, I, at least, am willing to engage this guy in dialog on matters of interest to me (I really am interested in what he has to say about al-Aqsa), and hopefully others will at least find this entertaining. And I know that you'll call me on the carpet if you think I'm being too easy on him (which, I think, you effectively are in your note ;-)).
I'm more of the perspective that if he agrees with any aspect of Sharia and is willing to defend any aspect of Islam then decent human beings will never accept him and he should know that. I think that running people like out right off the bat is a good idea because if you do that then they will understand that decent human beings see right through their crap immediately, no matter how much polish they put on it. Islam and decency are completely incompatible and at the end of the day he has to decide: is he with the civilized world or is he with the inbred, filthy, child-molesting, terrorist world, America or Afghanistan, if you will. Plus it's satisfying to just call them on their crap and know that they know that you're right because they don't come back. Besides, no matter what he says, you know what he thinks about Al-Aqsa: the same thing he actually thinks about Occupied Al-Andalusia. He thinks that Muslims stole it from filthy kafirs fair-and-square, according to sicko-pervert sharia. I think it's important to let Mohammedans know that no informed person will ever accept Islam or any of its followers, that decent people find Islam disgusting and know not to ever believe a Muslim.
Maybe it's just my own prejudice and I just see him as another troll. In rl, when I note some humanity in Muslims, particularly those who seem to prefer kafirs to their own kind, I embrace them. I never trust them, but I like to show them that our world is superior. That's harder to do on the Internet. I just felt like he was another dead-cow-eyed, clean-shaven narcissist trying to dawa us and I didn't like it. The difference is that he came here to talk (lie) about Islam, whereas Muslims in real life don't talk about Islam with me and they certainly don't defend it. His dishonesty and selective semi-answering of questions really put me off.
I actually prefer AM's approach, whereby he cites obscure authors and takes passages out of context and gives them his own interpretation. At least he's trying. He's not making insane blanket statements like "Islam condemns killing people who aren't actively physically attacking you." He tries to explain away polygamy, not deny its existence and defend it while distancing himself from it altogether. It irritates me, but I respect it more. I think that AM believes most of the stuff he says. That dude was just spewing lies and dissimulation and trying to sound nice while he did it and he was doing it because Muslims, being ridiculously arrogant, invariably operate on the assumption that kafirs are ignorant. He even pulled the "I'm not a Wahhabi so I don't fit your stereotype even though I pray that you all die, fund terrorism, and pimp my genitally-mutilated daughter into incestuous sex slavery at 14" crap. He was a creep. Maybe I just hate people named "Mohammad" because that's the name of the child-molester who stalked me.
jdamn, got it. I'm very sorry to learn of your bad experience at the hands of a Mohammad child molester. That name alone is a big put off to people in the West, although for someone who is born in the Muslim world it is a badge of distinction. I doubt if they even realize, most of them, that for us it has the same negative connotations as the name Hitler. Of course, many of them wouldn't see anything wrong with that, either.
Look, I'm a huge fan of you and your posts, and if the chance came I would vigorously complete with many others on this site for the honor of seconding the nomination someone made recently of "jdamn for president." We do have different styles. Yours is direct. Mine is to try to draw people out to see what lurks in the depths of their minds and find out what justifications they make for thinking the way they do. For the subject of Islam it's sort of a "know your enemy" thing, but it also has interesting aspects that go beyond ideology, such as differences according to age and degree of separation from the old country. It's also partly a cultural sensitivity thing. I know this is a dirty word on some circles, but when I was teaching in Africa many years ago this was a survival skill, as I'm sure anyone who has lived within the economy of a non-Western foreign culture for any length of time can attest. It probably also helps that I'm a somewhat arrogant SOB who is hard to offend (I do have exceptions), rather preferring to parse insulting statements for flashes of insight on the part of the insulter. I'm not interested in hurling canned and predigested Bible or Qur'anic verses back and forth, preferring original thought instead.
I suspect Mo is a first generation immigrant, so in a sense he is a prisoner of the cultural matrix he was born into and is just reflexively spouting beliefs he was programmed with as a child. Certainly nothing he said suggested he had done little more than slather on a thin coat of Western sheen that would allow him to move easily among the kufr with minimum hassle, as you so accurately assessed. Still, I didn't find him obnoxiously offensive at all, as you did, in the way many Muslims just off the boat tend to be. What I'd really be interested in is what his kids, or his grandkids, are doing.
I think we're on the same side, here. So, friends?
Totally. I guess I kinda killed your mojo and I'm sorry for that. I just don't get trying to get into the heads of Muslims because they have not only prepared talking points, but prepared thoughts as well. I didn't sense much capacity for independent thought in him, but that doesn't mean that your doing so is in any way invalid.
Who nominated me for president? Of what? And where in Africa did you teach? I would love to hear about it sometime. I always like it when PG tells us about her time in Sudan.
No problem, there will be other opportunities to play mind games with these guys. It's kind of a fetish with me (I also do it in a nonmalevalent sort of way with my Chinese and Indian students in order to try to understand the sometimes peculiar forms of logic exhibited in their homework). Strange as it sounds, there does seem to be something that might be called culture- specific forms of logic that to natives appears to be more or less self evident and self consistent, but to an outsider is completely and totally illogical and irrational. Understanding the internal cultural logic of Islam (with perhaps some assistance from precision guided munitions), would allow us to identify and exploit specific weaknesses, if we were smart enough to make the effort to do this.
I think it was duh-swami who nominated you, and he was referring to the POTUS, of course. I taught at a boys' school northwest of Kisumu, Kenya, right smack on the equator. By coincidence it also happened to be Obama's ancestral home, although I didn't know this would be the case when I was there, so I was familiar with the cultural issues about the Luos that came up during the campaign. And who is PG (Pam Geller, by chance?).
No way! I'm taking a two-semester course on Dholuo with a fantastic professor from Ghana who loves to tell us about different African cultural norms. Logic is quite interesting, anthropologically-speaking. I would love to talk about your experience in Kenya sometime. I spend way too much of my "elicitation time" with my informant shooting the stuff because she's just a very interesting chick and I appreciate her perspective.
PG is a poster in here. She lives in Australia.
I enjoy her posts.
As for Islamic logic, I don't think there is any. Islam is basically the absence of logic, which is why I don't think that you can gain much insight into the Islamic mind. It's usually a blank slate. They think what they're told to and they train themselves to shut out anything original, as far as I can tell. That's been my experience with Muslims, but that may be colored by the fact that that's just the only way I can imagine that someone could buy into Islam. Clearly, it's not that cut-and-dry, since that doesn't explain the Abdullah Mikhails of the world.
Muslims do seem to have no concept of unitary logic, which is why they have no problem with all of Islam's inconstencies. Some Muslims seem to not even have to resort to abrogation in order to make sense of the Koran because both parts can hold true at the same time in their minds. That is not logic as I understand it, but that doesn't mean that it's not worth noting and investigating.
Bill Warner wrote a couple of articles in which he dealt with Islamic logic which you might enjoy:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=%7B6AA49466-2575-491F-B712-CEA90FCCCD0D%7D
http://www.newenglishreview.org/custpage.cfm?frm=5208&sec_id=5208
I always find his articls to be very interesting.
RtL
If by " Nationalist govt" you mean the BNP then I have some serious issues with you.
It is ironic that a neo-Nazi organisation which was till very rectly openly anti-semitic, with members of its leadership convicted of anti-semtic hate crimes is defending Israel on this website.
I am also a little surprised you are defending homosexuals and even named yourself ater one - and a foreign one at that - despite the BNP's known and open homophobia.
Ironic isnt it?
Wow! Jdamn, that was one of the most powerful posts I've read anywhere in a long long time.
I am also relieved to see that many people here like yourself and eastview are not racists.
I was getting a little paranoid after reading posts like RtL's.
I agree with your views on Islam as a faith and ideology but have slightly different take on Muslims. For starters not all `Muslims' are believers. Many are culturally Muslim but firmly secular in their outlook. You will be surprised the number of `muslims' who turn out non-believers and atheists.
This tells me that Muslims have the intellectual capacity to assess and identify Islam for what is really is - an old and violent social control system that must be rejected and discarded by 21st humanity.
It is therefore my view that we should encourage those with intelligent enough and educated amongst Muslims to reject this barbarity. It is perhaps even our duty as human beings to challenge them and educate them?
That is just my view. Thank you
Gorgi, you are not another Charles Johnston are you? Seeing Neo Nazi's under the bed and behind the curtains?
RtL has shown no racism, yet you imply it in your post.
You say.
This tells me that Muslims have the intellectual capacity to assess and identify Islam for what is really is - an old and violent social control system that must be rejected and discarded by 21st humanity.
Your premise is that over time assimilation will occur, and those Muhammadans that carry with them cultural baggage (violent social control systems) from their previous geographic location will shed these aberrant behaviors.
Well I regret to inform you that this approach has been tried for the last 60 years and look where it has gotten us. I am interested as to what your solution is, who should the people of the UK vote for?
RtL makes a lot of sense, you just seem like a provocateur, flinging Nazi brick bats, if you have a solution lets hear it.
Wow, amazing jdamn! How is it that you are taking two semesters of Dholuo? Perhaps part of a larger program of studies? Dholuo isn't exactly the most popular language in the world. I'm not much of a linguist, so I never got beyond Swahili, the lingua franca of the region, and was never very proficient at that in any case. My classes were in English.
My interest in logic is in terms of ways in which it can be cast into a mathematically rigorous formal grammar, and how the world views of various cultures are projected onto this grammar. It's kind of a long term hobby of mine and is pretty dry stuff, but it's parallel to the problem of how mathematics manages to capture so much of the physical world (which I spend a lot of time pondering in my job).
Thanks for the links to the Bill Warner article. I had seen the FrontPage interview, but not the NER article. Great stuff, although Warner is somewhat more conservative in his views than me, in a mathematical sense.
As pertains to the internal logic of Islam, the basic premise is that all cultural logical systems contain an internal logical structure, not only Islam, but us as well and this can to some extent be isolated and cast into abstract terms. A central problem is how much of the fabric of a real, living culture can actually be captured and described this way, i.e., the completeness problem. A problem of not inconsiderable practical interest is to discern and define where the overlap between cultures occurs, which determines the accuracy and completeness of mutual understanding, and conversely the regions where there is no overlap, leading to conflict. In "blah blah blah rover" terms, picking out and distinguishing the "blahs" from the "rovers." In practical terms this can be applied to "know your enemy."
I think most people instinctively know about all these things in a general sort of way, as they do with most mathematical concepts, without knowing that they know it - rather like the bourgeois gentilhomme in Moliere's play who wasn't aware he was speaking in prose.
KM
I will consider any solution except the one suggested by RtL. If you dont think his solution has something of the `final solution' about it then I have to disagree.
I said IF by Nationalist government he meant a BNP one.. with the emphasis on the if.
BTW km I have no problem people being racist or expressing racist views. It is called freedom of thought and speech. What I dislike is the intellectual dishonesty; being racist but pretending to be something else.
I still hold the BNP are racist, anti-semitic scum. Their hatred maybe focused on the Muslims now they know most people are scared by Isalms and Muslims, but they hate Jews and Blacks and Hindus and Chinese and Irish Catholics just the same.
Gorgi, so you don't actually have a solution then? You just feel that the nationalist/BNP avenue has a kind of genocidal ring to it.
What if the only solution is a switch to nationalist based politics. What if the only solution, due to time constraints from demographic pressure, is to actually vote the BNP in, not as the ruling party but as an effective opposition, what will you do then?
Also could you please substantiate with evidence how the BNP hate Jews, Blacks, Hindus and Irish Catholics.
I have looked over their website and I see no policies specifically targeted at these religious and ethnic groups. Why I have even see they have Jewish councilors, have collaborated with Hindu groups to raise awareness of the issue of jihad and have seen them campaign for Gurkha soldiers to be given citizen rights in the UK.
http://bnp.org.uk/2008/07/bnps-charity-work-shows-the-party-in-its-true-light/
KM
If people voted the BNP in it will be a betrayal of the millions of men who fought and died oppossing nazism and fascism during WW2. (check the background of their leaders and you will find they have convictions for anti-semitism)
Thankfully the British public are much too sensible to vote in scum like the BNP.
You keep asking me for a solution. Solution to what problem?
Gorgi, islamification, what problem did you think I was on about?
Also I had a look at the BNP web site looking for that antisemitism you keep mentioning and your not going to Adam and Eve it, but the lead article is about the Gaza issue, Islam and Jihad from the BNP party chairman.
http://bnp.org.uk/2009/01/%E2%80%9Cisrael%E2%80%99s-gaza-affair%E2%80%9D-by-bnp-leader-nick-griffin/
Now I dont know about you, but if I was an Israeli politician I would be praying to the almighty for political groups in Europe to come out with such a statement. Also look at the comments section, it may as well have been a thread at JW. Your charges of Nazi like fascism and antisemitism just don't wash I am afraid.
KM
You claerly know very littel about the BNP and it appears, you dont really want to know.
Suffice to say their Leader, Nick Griffin, was convicted in 1990 for publishing materials denying the holocaust. Go google or visit Searchlight magazine. They know.
As for Islamficatioon whenever I see the kind of people complaining about it, I wonder which one is worse: Nazism or Shariaism?
Hmm not sure. Probably just about as bad as each other.
Searchlight magazine?
Please do me a favor, as for Nick Griffin's conviction for denying the Holocaust, I agree he was out of line back then.
But people change, for example as a young teenager back in 1990 I used to think the Israelis were oppressors of the Palestinian's. I would get my info from papers like the Guardian , Searchlight and other far left sources and think I knew everything about the situation. I will even admit that I used to believe that the international Jewish community milked the holocaust for sympathy, I now know I was wrong. Twenty years later I now live and work in Israel.
You say:
As for Islamficatioon whenever I see the kind of people complaining about it, I wonder which one is worse: Nazism or Shariaism?
So people are Nazi's if they complain about islamification, how exactly do you work that one out? It sounds like you are on the wrong forum, maybe The Guardian comment is free blog would be more to your liking. They eulogize islamification over there, and also think that people who complain about it are Nazi's, why today they even have an obituary for slain Jihadists that devoted their lives to slaughtering Jews and Kuffar.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/03/obituary-nizar-rayan-hamas
Gorgi, RtL's girlfriend is black. I doubt that he's a racist. He's been pretty up-front about the fact that he feels like he has nowhere else to go besides the BNP, which speaks volumes about the state of the UK. Immigration, national security, destroying NuLabour's indoctrination of children in self-hate, and instituting freedom of speech like it's 200 years ago already are, I would imagine, his top political priorities. That being the case, I can't blame him. If I had the choice between NuLabour and the BNP I would probably do the same thing, and I'm quick to defend multiculturalism with limits. I'll take a racist Britain over a racist, sexist, Judeophobic, homophobic, Christophobic, draconian Pakistan any day, and that's essentially the choice he's been given. I understand why that would offend you, Gorgi, given that you're Indian, but unless something's done about Paki immigration, your own status within the UK will quickly wither away as people more readily assume that you're a little bin Laden. If I were Indian I would be continually offended that people might assume I were Paki. I consider Sikh and Hindu Indians to be part of the fabric of Britain, but Muslim Indians and Pakis are a completely foreign element. I think RtL would agree. If you want to take issue with an anti-Semitic government, go after Obama. And don't throw that traitor Rahm Emmanuel in my face because he hates Israel.
Eastview, I get to take a 2-semester course on Luo because we're required to either have writing proficiency in a language outside our native language family or take 2 semesters of Field Methods. African Languages is a sub-department of the LingDept, so the topic of the course usually an African language. I also just really wanted to study under this professor because he's an incredible guy and I have tremendous respect for him. I was considering learning Hebrew but it's held within the Saudi Agenda Department, where the guy who stalked me works, so that was out of the question.
Good luck figuring out Islamic logic.
"I was considering learning Hebrew but it's held within the Saudi Agenda Department..."
Posted by jdamn
Good Gawd!
Gorgi
You can have as many serious issues as you wish with me, regardless I couldn't give a hoot.
I am a Nationalist and yes, I agree on almost all of the views of the BNP apart from of course their reluctance to see British people as any other colour other than white. However as I've explained in countless other posts in here, that too is also open for discussion. As it stands though, if you come to the UK, want to embrace our culture as your own and show loyalty to the country before any other then I couldn't care if you came from a Galaxy far, far away.
Political parties change or didn't you know that? Let us look at the Conservative party of now to 20 years ago and you will see that it is Conservative only in name as it has managed to completely evolve into a Social Democrat Party. Let us look at the Labour Party and we will see that it has in fact turned into a party similar to Hitler's National Socialist party. Let us look at the BNP and you will find that they are distancing themselves from the prejudice past and anti semetic one also. In the link that 'km' posted to an article by Nick Griffin you will find that his main concern is in fact Islam and not Israel. He also rightfully states that what happens in the outside world really is also none of our business unless it directly involves us. He is stating that Islam is the problem and not Israel. If many countries around this world sorted out their own backyard before others, this world would be a far better place.
And I'd also like to remind you of one simple thing, a Nationalist is not a racist. Had it not been for Nationalism there'd have been no Free Europe as Hitler would have destroyed it.
You can say what you want of the BNP, I don't care a hoot. I've never voted for a Nationalist Party before, although I know I've always been one and proud of it. I have watched, as I've grown, Labour then Tory then Labour destroy the UK and it looks as though Conservative are going to get a crack at the whip again to continue its destruction.
You can do what you want. You can continue to vote for NuLabLibCon alliance, but know that in doing so you welcome Islamisation in. There is only one party or groups of parties that actually will sort out Islam and they are the BNP, English Democrats, Veritas or England first. Any other party will continue to wreck the UK and bring in Islamisation.
Jdamn
We all have choices and in my view there is no justification whatsoever for joining a nazi party like the BNP. I disagree with those who claim they have somehow changed. Leopards and spots.
I agree with you I would rather live in Britain than Pakistan but I will never live in a Britain taken over by racist scum like the BNP. Trying to convince me they are sort of OK is like trying to convince you Muslims rock and Islam is really quite cool. So please dont try.
I posted my thoughts of what we should do about Islamism in Britain in another thread(the Canada demo one) and I would love your opinion on it.
BTW I dont accept Obama is anti-semite either. I have no time for his lily-livered kind of liberalism but I dont believe he is an anti semite. But we will soon see wont we?
Lastly where as in which country are you studying if you dont mind me asking?
Gorgi,
I have a choice - the destruction of the UK, its culture, heritage and everything that attracted your family to it in the first place or else voting for a party that will keep the above and stop its destruction.
Jdamn has said it above(thank you Jdamn for your post as you explained what I already have many times) that the more Muslims in the UK, not only will you be persecuted by them but also by angry indigenous population who start to fight back.
I have called for the complete removal of Islam for the sake of not just indigenous Brits but also all the other peaceful cultures that live here and embrace our culture and yes that includes you & your ilk - Hindus, Sikhs & Asian Christians.
You have got the idea of Nationalism completely wrong. Nationalism is not about racism and persecution. It's all about the preservation of culture and welcoming in others who want to embrace it. Of course we would rather other cultures did not grow(Islam is a prime reason why) but we wouldn't persecute them. You forget that multiculturalism was what caused battles throughout history in the first place!
You should never judge another until you know what you're judging. And last but not least, I am of the viewpoint that if the BNP actually started recruiting Blacks and Ethnics into their ranks who are proud of being British, they would completely obliterate the main three parties as their policies are far better then the main three.
You are no better than the left wing fascists and the ignoramuses on the right who are not concerned in the problems that immigration and rise in ethnic demographics is destroying the UK. You automatically attack the only party that actually gives a hoot for the UK and its people. Sure they're politicians and I trust none of them, but when looking at what the BNP & Nationalists are saying compared to others, then there really is no choice. I also suggest you have a look and read before sullying and lambasting, the only party/s that will save the UK from complete and total obliteration.
RtL
I have no issues with you holding any views you like or supporting any party.
Free and country and all that. I have issues with lies and dishonesty and naked opportunism. The BNP hasnt changed they got smarter. They are the antisemtic racist filth they always were just smarter.
They know most British people find ant-semtism revolting so they keep it quite. They are as homophobic as ever but they just dont talk about it.
You say other parties changed. True, but with one crucial difference: the leadership changed in all the parties you mentioned. Not so the BNP
P.S. Gorgi,
You also fail to understand that you are a minority and the BNP are speaking for the majority. The UK is 90% White and rightfully they will speak up for them.
The reason our country is a mess is because NuLabour have been speaking up for the 10% minority. It's time for change and if the BNP will stop: Political Correctness, forced Multi Culturalism, uncontrolled Immigration, Sharia law, Islamisation, the takeover of our establishments by communists and the destrution of our education system and police force then I will vote for them.
Gorgi,
I understand you don't like the BNP but then you're a what 2nd/3rd generation Indian hindu?
My ancestry can be traced back to the ancient Caledonians of the North. I am not looking to vote in a party that is going to preserve Hinduism, or Buddhism or African culture, but my own. Believe it or not it is my culture, British culture that is under attack from foreign cultures, that when this same thing happened in the past we went to war.
So Gorgi, like I said, if there is an alternative to stopping the destruction of MY culture, history, heritage and traditions, and having to continually take second place to others then I will vote for that party, but seeing as it hasn't emerged yet then I HAVE NO CHOICE.
You can't see it Gorgi because your history in the UK is just a drop in the ocean that is mine.
Gorgi,
Why don't you repost your thoughts here from the other thread you mention, I think they would be germane to this one and I would like to read them as I am sure others would.
Also who do you intend voting for, I would be interested to know why you think they would be advantageous in combating islamification. Also you did not answer my question earlier, you stated that those that complain of islamification are like Nazi's, how exactly do you work that one out. And if you believe that why are you here posting on JW?
And one final thing, again you throw out brick bat words like 'racist scum', would you mind not doing that, it's insulting to many posters here. If you feel strongly about something why don't you try and debate the issue. I believe there are many here that would engage you in debate and we might all learn something. For instance RtL just raised some interesting issues regarding his choices in the next election, why don't you show us why he is wrong in his reasoning.
"Hmm.....
Point 4 Mohammed. I find it convenient that you haven't answered the first part
Are you willing to swear an oath of allegiance to the nation state where you reside, even if it conflicts with your religious beliefs? Here, of course, I'm referring to the concept of separation of the domains of religious and state power.
Care to answer it please?"
I have provided my response.
I see no contradiction in being a good citizen of the UK and being a good practising Muslim. To me, Islam comes first, I put God before anything, myself, my parents, everything, my faith and conscience help me determine what is right and what is wrong. I am not one to blindly follow and believe whatever the UK Gov. says, I use and trust my own judgement. People in the UK don't swear an oath of allegiance, I don't think I ever have, I don't think my White mates do either, though listening to the national anthem or listening to the Queens xmas speech may count.
I regard the UK as my home, I know no other place, the place you are born and raised in will always be home, no matter what.
"LIAR MOHAMMAD --
I concur with savsiv and jdamn in everything they stated to you, so ditto to you; also, there's a video with your name on it from this thread:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/024240.php#comments
A must see for everyone on this planet!!"
I don't know what you said but thank you.
Eastview, thanks for the cool headed response. Regarding Al-Aqsa, I think the issue is pointless in discussing. I don't know the specifics regarding the Prophet's ascension (an Islamic belief), and they don't matter. Historical claims are insignificant as people's hearts and minds are tied to the city, Arabs, Jews and Christians have been living there for centuries, no one is going to pack up their bags and leave - and rightly so.
Jerusalem is sacred to Jews, Christians and Muslims, it is a sacred place where Prophets and blessed people have lived and preached - since all 3 religions hold the place sacred should they all not be allowed to pray there? You cannot exclude one, it just wouldn't work.
Everyone who has been rude and unwelcoming (you know who you are) - thank you. I have really enjoyed your attention, I really like how you hang off every word I say, reading into things so deeply that you look like lame psychics. When expressing an opinion which doesn’t fit in with the blood-crazed terrorist stereotype, I am automatically called a liar. It would seem a lot of people here can only argue in definites, they don’t like it when things get a little complicated, it has to be black and white.
I have never seen a board with such a rude and aggressive atmosphere. Just wanted to say that. Appreciate those that can speak calmly without going psycho. And I thought this was priceless:
Darcy wrote:
“Mohammmed - go back to your desert where you belong.
Look at all that Al-Taqiyya in his comments above! Yeah, Jewish groups were involved, right! LOL
Bravo Israel! You are winning! Keep demolishing the Barbarian Hitlerian Mohammedans!”
Gorgi wrote:
“darcy
But there were Jewish groups involved. Sadly. In fact the demostartors were probably only 50% muslim if not less.”
Just to let you know, I am NOT leaving, just wanted to say all that because I know alot of people will be reading this. And I know you're happy that I'm here, you get to shout at me and everything ** chortle **
I see no contradiction in being a good citizen of the UK and being a good practising Muslim. To me, Islam comes first, I put God before anything, myself, my parents, everything, my faith and conscience help me determine what is right and what is wrong.
You might not see a contradiction, but I certainly do. As a Muslim you profess to believe the Koran is the highest authority on human affairs. Many of the laws laid down in the Koran and Hadith are antithetical to laws that we have established in the UK.
The question was:
Are you willing to swear an oath of allegiance to the nation state where you reside, even if it conflicts with your religious beliefs? Here, of course, I'm referring to the concept of separation of the domains of religious and state power.
What you are saying is that your religious beliefs come first and therefore you will side with the Muslims and the Koran when push comes to shove. Tell us exactly why the people of the UK knowing this should openly accept you into there culture when at any point you could turn jihad.
"I'm more of the perspective that if he agrees with any aspect of Sharia and is willing to defend any aspect of Islam then decent human beings will never accept him and he should know that."
Lmfao. You do not speak for the rest of the World, you do not have any authority over mankind, such statements are meaningless.
One aspect of Islam is praying 5 times a day, is that inhumane, another aspect is sharing with those around you, looking after your parents etc. And Shariah law, forgive me if DONT want murderers, drug dealers, rapists and robbers to live lives of luxury with no fear of the law. This is the case in most PC countries, hell, musicians and artists in the US glamorise drug-taking and violence and this crap is broadcast all over the World.
"Islam and decency are completely incompatible and at the end of the day he has to decide: is he with the civilized world or is he with the inbred, filthy, child-molesting, terrorist world, America or Afghanistan, if you will."
Thats a disgusting thing to say. Shocking.
Afghanistan is a nation that has seen nothing but war for the last few decades, the Soviets, the civil war, the Americans etc. It is a poor 3rd World country, there is no stability, the nation has not had a chance to get on its feet. Mines, arms, drugs, illiteracy, crime, drought, invasions. The people of that country deserve that? How many innocent people have died there in the last few decades, like you care. They must all be inbred, filthy, child-molesting terrorists.
You must forgive me if I don't wish to stand side to side with someone with such extreme racist views.
Question for RtL, Gorgi or km about the BNP: I just read the article pointed to by km http://bnp.org.uk/2009/01/%E2%80%9Cisrael%E2%80%99s-gaza-affair%E2%80%9D-by-bnp-leader-nick-griffin/. Excellent stuff, but the absence of strong support, it being half-hearted at best, Israel in the ME was glaring. Griffin says all the right words about Israel winning the war, giving reasons that echo those of these pages, but then backtracks and goes out of his way to distance himself from the conflict by saying "it's none of our business what happens so far away." He further states that the BNP party is reluctant to pick sides and thereby incur the wrath of local supporters of either side in the Gaza fight.
This seems a little disingenuous. I was expecting a resounding statement of official party support, but instead was left standing at the alter feeling very let down. It seems to me that supporting Israel, *especially* if it invoked the wrath of the Muslims, would do more to garner widespread local support for the BNP party than just about anything else he could do. Unless, of course, Griffin just couldn't bring himself to support Jews, which is one of the impressions left by the article, all the other excellent words he wrote notwithstanding.
Now, I'm just a casual, but very interested, beta bystander watching the extended debate going on among the alphas RtL, Gorgi and km, and not familiar with the details of British politics, and I'm content to stand on the sidelines and let them slug it out. But I do wonder if I'm missing some subtle element in the debate that would help explain this jarring inconsistency. Comments about this for the benefit of non-British readers, guys?
Eastview,
The BNP have a past of racism and white, Anglo, Saxon, Protestant Supremacy. I won't deny that they were involved in racist beatings, anti semetism but I do believe that they are changing. They are changing for the simple reason that they see that their culture is under no greater threat than it is now. They are also now receiving a larger fan base as Labourites, Liberals and Conservatives are now joining their ranks. These people are reading the BNP Manifesto and agreeing with their policies on Immigration, multiculturalism, law and order, asylum, death penalty, business and foreign affairs. This is why the BNP are gaining more support as they've changed from the 'knuckle dragging Neanderthals' into contender. They are winning seats around the country.
Many who have read my posts will know that I have never voted for the BNP but now I see that really there is very little choice. It takes time for politicial parties to grow and although I like Veritas and the English Democrat Party they really should consider uniting together with the BNP as they're all really saying the same things.
We need affirmative action in the UK. We need people to believe in their country and their heritage and to unite to destroy their Islamic foe. If they do not the UK is lost. Nationalism is the only thing that will save the UK from Islamisation. Our country is in a mess because the Nationalists greatest foe have power - the Socialists. The rise of Islam and chaos is directly attributed to this.
My feeling about the BNP and voting for them is this. Once they got in there would be changes. They would NOT persecute the jews or minorities as people think but would bring in a far tougher sentencing policy in the courts. They would establish one law of the land again and a far tougher police force than there currently is. Police would police the streets like they used to instead of being stuck behind filling in mountains of paperwork or off their backsides in police cars. They would also end immigration and break away from the EU meaning we have control of our borders again. That would also mean breaking away from EU control and we would then be allowed to start deporting our unwanted(Islamists).
All political parties fear the BNP because the BNP are a no frills party and what they say they'll do. They would bring back troops from Afghanistan and Iraq dying for Muslims who despise us and our culture and they would start looking after the people in the UK. Incidentally those people are the White Working Classes the NuLabour party have thrown on the scrapheap in favour of immigrants and minorities. They would create jobs for British workers before any other.
By voting in the BNP you would see the UK go back to what the world used to know of Britain, being an honest, fair and respectable country and not the dustbin of the World it is known for now. We would see our education standards rise back up again to where they used to be. We would not see gangs controlling the streets, but instead Borstals brought back to punish offenders. We would see the common man now gain the control of their lives again and not have to fear going out and being attacked by teenagers in the street. Sure the minorities would hate it with the BNP because under NuLabour their cultures have been allowed to blossom and thrive where ours have fallen to the wayside.
Political parties don't want the BNP in because they'd show the public the truth of what Conservative, NuLabour and Liberal democrats really are.
The BNP is not the party for the minority. Then again minorities should be integrating instead of remaining minorities but under NuLabour they've been allowed to and grow, to create their own little countries within the UK at the expense of the British taxpayer. The minorities will hate it, Gorgi will but I don't give a sh*t. It was my ancestors from all corners of the UK that created the place that everyone wanted to come to and now that they've come all they've done is destroy it, implementing their cultural practices over ours.
I'm a Nationalist and proud of it. I'm proud that my ancestors were part of the Greatest Empire in the World. I'm proud that there were so many Great Britons who have given the World so much. There are lots of things I'm not so proud of in my past but then that's the way as you can't always please everyone in your striving for utopia and brilliance.
Mohammad, glad to see you back. As you can see, you've wondered into a pretty tough neighborhood. Or rather, it's like the foundry floor of one of the most influential factories of public opinion in the storm that's brewing between East and West. Think of it as grass roots democracy, if you will, where you can watch the process by which opinions are shaped. Like sausage being made, it isn't always pretty to watch. We have our own POV here, and we often don't have much respect for the main stream media, where the news tends to get distorted in various ways. But, as I mentioned earlier, you'll find some pretty amazing people here who post items that range from the brilliant to the mundane. If you decide to continue posting, be sure to have your flame suit at hand, though.
Eastview,
Mohammad will have a rough time here. His entering JihadWatch is similar to a Nazi waling into a Jewish cafe. His posts are wrong. He is a Muslim in that he follows the teachings of Mohammad and worships him as his holy prophet. Anyone that worships such a man does not belong in the West and that is why I say that he and the rest of his Muslim people should be removed to Islamic Lands. They are not welcome here. I wouldn't have a conversation with any Muslim as they are an affront to the freedom that is the West and the free peoples that inhabit them. Their women, who cover up are an insult to the hundreds of women who fought for the vote and to be treated as 1st Class citizens. Everything about Mohammad's belief and religion is wrong and righfully so he'll face a hard time.
This is grass roots democracy and he'll see from this website just how many people disagree with Islam and Muslims. He's better get used to it if he's going to stay.
P.S.
Mohammad, I'll start now by saying that jdamn is going to defeat everything you have to say to defend Islam. Not only will he but everyone who posts on here(apart from Nose, Fancy and Abdullah) too.
Islam is so wrong and you cannot see it because you've been indoctrinated in it since birth.
This thread is going to be archived soon. It's a pity as like many others I'd like to continue dialogue with many on here.
Until next time.
Eastview, in response to your question of where was the resounding support for Israel, it is important to recognize in European politics that there will never be such a thing. All of the main stream parties are so corrupted by Muhammadan voting blocks and Saudi oil money that a tacit approval of Israel is impossible.
The fact that the BNP are giving the Israelis the one thing they need most right now, which is a 'realpolitik' recognition to act independently with in its sphere of influence for it's own benefit, is probably about as good as it will ever get.
I personally find it refreshing that the BNP are taking the stand they are doing. It is not a fawning eulogy to Zionism and nor is it the usual craven Eurodhimmi response of calling for immediate ceasefires and harping on about proportionality and the plight of the oppressed Palestinians. Its a no nonsense typically understated British approach to the problem, that will in the long run will have more benefit to the Israelis and the Europeans.
A consistent criticism of the BNP is that it and it's supporters are antisemitic, this is patently not true from both the article it's self and the following comments. I recommend reading the comments section as it is actually quite eye opening the level of support shown to Israel.
RtL, thanks for your comment. I think Mo has a pretty good idea by now of the lay of the land on this forum. It'll be interesting to see what happens next. I, too, regret to see archiving approaching for this thread. Things were starting to get interesting.
km, I did read the comments after the Griffins article, as you had recommended earlier, and they could have been lifted right from any of the comment sections of JW, so I see what you're saying. I will watch the BNP and allied nationalist parties in Europe with great interest. Thanks for your response.
"Regarding Al-Aqsa, I think the issue is pointless in discussing. I don't know the specifics regarding the Prophet's ascension (an Islamic belief), and they don't matter. Historical claims are insignificant as people's hearts and minds are tied to the city, Arabs, Jews and Christians have been living there for centuries, no one is going to pack up their bags and leave - and rightly so.
"Jerusalem is sacred to Jews, Christians and Muslims, it is a sacred place where Prophets and blessed people have lived and preached - since all 3 religions hold the place sacred should they all not be allowed to pray there? You cannot exclude one, it just wouldn't work."
Posted by: Mohammad
Actually, there's more involved than just accepting the status quo and peace and love among everyone. The problem, as always, is in the details, the specific one in question being that al-Aqsa sits squarely atop Solomon's Temple. Israel would like to excavate and restore the temple, and cannot do so with al-Aqsa in the way. I think you see the problem. What would you think about simply moving al-Aqsa to a new location, say off to one side by enough so that Solomon's Temple could be excavated and restored? Buildings are moved all the time, so this should be no problem. This would seem to be a good compromise, don't you think?