"Why doesn't Israel have the same right to self-defense as other nations?"

The world seems to have forgotten that at the end of World War II, President Harry Truman initiated the Marshall Plan, investing vast sums to rebuild Germany. But he did so only with the clear understanding that the money would build a new kind of Germany -- not a Fourth Reich that would continue the policies of Adolf Hitler. - from the article above.

-

I guess that "dismantling islam", the root cause of all the Middle East's misery, poverty, ignorance, backwardness, misogyny, racism, etc. is off the table if any foolish infidel state decides to demand that the aid it gives to a muslim country with no oil not be spent on financing jihad and the idleness of its A-rab citizens.

Answer: Occupation.

If Palestinians were given their separate state, including control over borders and trade routes, Israeli aggressive response to their attacks would be understandable. But the Palestinians essentially live in concentration camps controlled by Israel. Israel will neither annex those regions and give Palestinians the rights of citizens, nor release them and leave the Palestinians to create their own national identity.

But the condition the Palestinians live in, under Israeli occupation, leads people to understand why groups like Hamas come into being and why they fight the way they do.

If there's any sincerity in the questions you ask, you'll take time to consider the role Israel plays in controlling the standards of living for the Palestinians. By blocking the entrance of food and medicine. By blocking access of Palestinians to the other occupied territories. By the bulldozing of Palestinian homes, rendering them homeless, and diverting their water to serve Jews from America and elsewhere and give them their fantasy of living in "The holy land".

This is basically a good, common sense article that appeared in the WSJ. However, it continues to refuse to finger the root cause behind this double standard, and leaves open the blank with the actual name of the enemy-that-must-not-be-named - Islam. They continue to provide room for the multiculturalist Left to push their all-cultures-are the-same rubbish, who diffuse and dissemble and obscure with their irrelevant moral equivalency BS.

The Palestinians don't live under Israeli occupation, you stupid and retarded Islamic savage. They live under the Hamas jackboot. Hamas control the standarsd of lioving of the so-called Palesti nians. I am sick to death of Western aid going to Hamas barbarians. And Palestinians aren't starving. They're the eighth fattest people on the planet. The Gaza Strip is like a pigsty and its population resembles a styful of overbloated pigs rolling in the mud.

The Palestinians don't live under Israeli occupation, you stupid and retarded Islamic savage. They live under the Hamas jackboot. Hamas control the standarsd of living of the so-called Palestinians. I am sick to death of Western aid going to Hamas barbarians. And Palestinians aren't starving. They're the eighth fattest people on the planet. The Gaza Strip is like a pigsty and its population resembles a styful of overbloated pigs rolling in the mud.

If Palestinians were given their separate state, including control over borders and trade routes, Israeli aggressive response to their attacks would be understandable.

Posted by: Ibrahim at January 8, 2009 2:05 PM

The Palestinians should be given NOTHING. They should have earned a better quality of life long ago.

Egypt doesn't want them. Jordan doesn't want them. That should tell you something. the Arab world needs the Palestinians, just as they are, the eternal victims of the insidid Jews, in order to continue the propoganda war against Israel which will only end, in the Arab's eyes, with Israel's destruction.

Nice try though Ibby.

"Why doesn't Israel have the same right to self-defense as other nations?"

A question that the MSM refuses to ask.

If the palestinians are given a separate state, within one year they will have ruined what little they already have.

Second, they will continue to wage war against Israel, for their real and only goal is to get ALL of the holy land under their yoke.

Third, who the hell are "palestinians", anyway?

Show me just one history book listing the palestinian kings who once ruled this land. Any coins or bills with palestinians on them? Any lists of scientific or technological innovations from palestinians? What about great palestinian literature throughout the ages?

Nope. You won't find it anywhere.

800,000 jordanians were told overnight in 1968 that they were "palestinians".

So, enough of this silly myth.

This will not be well-received by others on this forum. Rabbi Marvin Heir, like Alan Dershowitz and other ostensible defenders of Israel, exhibits a very dangerous form of naivete, self-loathing or I am not sure what to call it.

Rabbi Heir wrote: "My fear is that the rage we see in the protesters marching in the streets is far more profound and dangerous than we would like to believe. There are a great many people in the world who, even after Auschwitz, just can't bear the Jewish state having the same rights they so readily grant to other nations. These voices insist Israel must take risks they would never dare ask of any other nation-state -- risks that threaten its very survival -- because they don't believe Israel should exist in the first place...."

True enough. And yet Heir, Dershowitz and other "defenders" of Israel call for Israel to take these suicidal risks, often in the most strident terms as in Alan Dershowitz's recent book, "The Case For Peace."

Behold:

R. Heir endorses a Palestinian State
By: David Bedein, The Bulletin

[..] Indeed, for almost 20 years, United States State Department officials have issued directives that endorsed the creation of an independent Palestinian state under the PLO, so long as it would co-exist in peace alongside the state of Israel.

In 1989, the prestigious Simon Wiesenthal Center in Los Angeles, known for its tenacity in the war against intolerance and anti-Semitism, warned against any such scenario.

In that light, the Wiesenthal Center issued a seminal volume, entitled Can Israel Survive A Palestinian State?, whose thesis was that peace with the PLO was impossible, since the purpose of the PLO is the liberation of all of Palestine, albeit in stages.

The report warned that the PLO would use any area under its control as a launching pad from which it would attack Israeli communities, with the logistical help from nearby Islamic Arab nations.

The premonitions of Can Israel Survive A Palestinian State? came to fruition much earlier than expected over the past few years, as the quasi-independent Palestinian entity in Gaza has been quickly transformed into an armed Continued From Page 1

Palestinian entity that now lays siege to all of southwestern Israel, amply supplied with lethal weaponry and ammunition that flows to the new terror state from Egypt, even though a formal peace treaty between Israel and Egypt remains intact.

However, in a surprising development, the head of the Simon Wiesenthal Center, Rabbi Marvin Hier, announced in the April 11 issue of the Jewish Press, published in New York, that he endorsed the establishment of the Palestinian state that he had warned against not too long ago.

When asked about the veracity of his statement, Rabbi Hier responded emphatically that he supports a Palestinian state in Judea, Samaria and Gaza.

The Bulletin asked Rabbi Hier how he could support an independent Palestinian entity like this, considering the fact that his book had correctly warned that such an entity would use all areas under its control as a launching pad, from where it would attack Israel, and considering the fact that his center’s book was proven to be correct. Witness the daily lethal attacks on Sderot and the 45 farming communities in the Western Negev.

Rabbi Hier was also asked how the Simon Wiesenthal Center, whose Center for the Study of Tolerance was committed to the fight against intolerance, could support the creation of an entity whose incitement against the state and people of Israel continues unabated, whose educational system was still inculcating the next generation of Palestinian children to continue the war to liberate all of Palestine, whose leadership harbored terrorist organizations such as the Al Aksa Brigades -defined by U.S. law as an illegal terror organization whose constitution did not allow for the juridical status of any religion other than Islam, and where allegations of widespread persecution of Christians at the hands of the Palestinian Authority are rampant.

Rabbi Hier explained to the Bulletin that his endorsement of a Palestinian entity was “entirely dependent” on the creation of a viable Palestinian entity which would recognize Israel as a Jewish state, which would be committed to peace and reconciliation, and which is “right now not in the offing,” according to Rabbi Hier.

In light of Rabbi Hier’s statement in this regard, the Bulletin asked Rabbi Hier if he would ask President Bush to reconsider his directive to create a Palestinian state within six months. The Bulletin also asked Rabbi Hier whether he would ask President Bush to desist from arming an entity still at war with; and if he would ask President Bush to insist on the cancellation of the Palestinian anti-Semitic curriculum and the nullification of the new Palestinian constitution, which is based on the intolerant Islamic Sharia law.

Rabbi Hier received these questions and, according to a senior staff official, is still considering these queries from the Bulletin.

Rabbi Hier, rated by Newsweek in its April 18 issue as the most influential rabbi in the United States of America, can put a call to the president of the United States, knowing that his call will be taken seriously. The question remains: Will Rabbi Marvin Hier use his position of influence to tell President George W. Bush what he has informed the Bulletin, which is that his April 11 endorsement of a Palestinian state was conditioned on the creation of a viable Palestinian leadership, which, in Rabbi Hier’s assessment, does not yet exist?

David Bedein can be reached at Media@actcom.co.il. His Web site is www.IsraelBehindTheNews.com

http://www.israpundit.com/2008/?p=848

"...why groups like Hamas come into being and why they fight the way they do." -- Ibrahim

I'll grant that resistance tactics by Hamas, including suicide bombings and rocket bombardments, may have evolved as an effective counter to superior technology. But from the perspective of what is ultimately needed for peace these are side issues. The root issue is Hamas' continued insistence, as spelled out clearly in its charter, that Israel doesn't have a right to exist. It continues to expend energies, not on nation building or developing normal relations and commerce with its neighbors, but on a maniacal pursuit of unrealistic dreams of Israel's destruction.

"Show me just one history book listing the palestinian kings who once ruled this land. Any coins or bills with palestinians on them? Any lists of scientific or technological innovations from palestinians? What about great palestinian literature throughout the ages?

"Nope. You won't find it anywhere.

"800,000 jordanians were told overnight in 1968 that they were "palestinians"".

Posted by: bonncaruso

Bingo. Except that many so-called "Palestinians" have bought into this myth and have actually come to believe it. Even Queen Raina, the wife of King Abdullah II pof Jordan, is described in Wikipedia as having been born of "Palestinian" parents in Kuwait. In reality, of course, she is Jordanian.

But what is the significance of a label such as "Jordanian" or "palestinian" for a member of the Ummah ?

I saw that phony, Queen Rania, on TV the other day crying over the "innocent" loss of life in Gaza. She isn't aging well. Looks like the ugly is spreading from the inside to the outside.

She poses as this advocate for women's rights as though she is trying to do her small part to make changes slowly, like some grassroots advocate rather than the most powerful woman in her country. All she cares about is protecting the image of Islam when infidels start becoming alarmed by terrorism or atrocities committed against women, but she offers nothing of substance, hoping to get by on her looks and Westernized mannerisms to superficial Oprah audiences who will say, "gee, she's just like me. Islam isn't so strange. It can't be so bad."

I have nothing positive to say about Hamas, Hezbollah or the rest, but at least they are honest enough to reveal their true intentions (horrific as they may be). It is the "moderates" like the Queen and her husband who really eat at me. Their plausible presentation does much more to harm Israel in the media battle.

First- the israeli not only where not occuppying palistine they where responsible for its power water and some food stuffs.
Second- they where given the area under the plo under the agreement to stop attacking israel.

Third- every sieze fire palistinians under both the plo and hamas have attacked israEL DISREGARDING EVERY AGREEMENT THEY HAVE MADE PALISTINIANS ARE IN VIOLATION OF EVERY SINGLE AGREEMENT EVER MADE.
Fourth-hamas doctrine calls for driven every jew into the sea and never ever letting them live no matter what in peace.

Five- MUSLIMS ARAbs or so called palistinians have no right to any area in israel =the areas they want by the way are eygptian and syrian areas israel took when attacked.

Six-The ptoperganda palistinians teach there children through the decades has created total insanity about its people who regularly hand out candy when there children die.

7- If i was israeli well forget that if you where my neighbor and kept throwing bombs at my house with my children though you made agreements not to i would wipe your house off the map with everyone in it.

Ibrahim brainwashed nut do you get this nut IF I KEPT ATTACKING YOUR CHILDREN AS A MUSLIM WE ALL KNOW WHAT YOU WOULD DO YOU WOULD BEHEAD RAPE KILL BURN DESTROY.

Ibrahim get what im saying loser you morons need to stop coming here thinking we on jihad watch are as stupid as the left and europeans we are my friend enlightened to what you muslims are doing every single place in the world where you are every where its not 15 muslims with 15 trillon frequent flyer miles doing all the damage.

Ibrahim the israeli are the front line on islams war on everyone else bro do not piss down my back and tell me its raining out.

But what is the significance of a label such as "Jordanian" or "palestinian" for a member of the Ummah ?

Posted by: NurMahal at January 8, 2009 3:00 PM

Exactly.

"Answer: Occupation."

There's that buzz word again: "Occupation"

That word is always a red-flag warning that someone is high on the lies of Islam.

Just more lying propoganda being pushed by the Islamic Drug Lords and their addicts. I used to feel sorry for those stoned on Islam, but not any more, because you chose this evil path.

Alittle history for you brainwashed muslims.

Lets call it a wake up call to reality.

SO-CALLED PALISTINE was a deserted area few lived in for a very long time jews and cheistians mainly lived there though there where some muslims in the mid to late 18th century some jews who where working the area thought it would be good to bring muslim cheap labor in.

MUSLIMS HAVE SINCE IN THE WHOLE MIDDLE EAST HAVE WIPED OUT EVERY OTHER SINGLE RELIGION CULTURE AND PEOPLE IN THE AREA THROUGH THE SWORD RAPE AND INTOLERANCE.

Ibrahim you are not only not an innocent people hamas as the plobefore use your people as shields to be killed for allah you screram they are martyr then on the world stage pretend its a horror maybe this is not the best place to use your properganda this is why you have obama the magnificent messiah the holy ghost.

Ibrahim

There was no occupation of Gaza when Hamas was lobbing rockets into Sderot.

Even a cursory glance at a map will show that Gaza, with physical dimensions of about 10 x 25 miles, can never be a viable nation state on its own. It is too small, has no natural resources of its own, and is too dependent on international charity (most of which is supplied by Israel, ironically), to be a real nation. It is boxed in by Israel on the north and Egypt on the south. And, perhaps most importantly, it is physically disconnected from the West bank, with which various parties are pushing it to combine into a physical entity called "Palestine." But this Gaza/East Bank arrangement, too, suffers from several adverse realities of geography. Would a "Polish Corridor" be established to connect the two? Would the bottom half of Israel be lopped off and given to "Palestine" so as better to connect the two regions? I think we know to the answer to both these questions.

Where does one find any discussion about these geographical realities and their implications for the viability of a Palestinian "state" and how would this translate into the future likely course of events if such an artificial entity were to be created? I would propose that, even aside from all the current focus on cultural conflict, the simple facts of geography mitigate against the formation of a viable nation state called "Palestine." The only reason such an entity would be created would be as a better organized springboard from which to launch more attacks on Israel along a its eastern and southern borders.

Israel should simply annex both Gaza and the West Bank, as well as the Golan Heights, brace itself for 10 years of dealing with the resultant chaos, and put an end to this 60 year old canker sore. The U.S. and whatever other nations can be found with even a shred of whatever is left of decency in the world should stand behind Israel in this, and do whatever is necessary to see the process through to the end.

Ibrahim

There was no occupation of Gaza when Hamas was lobbing rockets into Sderot.

Posted by: Infidel Pride

Ibrahim you are not only not an innocent people hamas as the plobefore use your people as shields to be killed for allah you screram they are martyr then on the world stage pretend its a horror maybe this is not the best place to use your properganda this is why you have obama the magnificent messiah the holy ghost.

Posted by: spcbat

What are you two talking about? Can you put these comments in context?

"Gaza/East Bank" should read "Gaza/West Bank"

Gaza is as viable as a golf course in Abu Dhabi. The fabulously rich Arabs spend their money keeping such golf courses, and a good deal else, going at great expense, and contra naturam. Gaza is kept going because the soi-disant "international community, led by the nose by the Arab and Muslim bloc, the Islamintern that controls so much of what the U.N. does and says and pays attention to and spends money on (did yo know that almost as much money goes to the "Palestinian" Arabs as to all other refugees, all over the world, put together? If I were one of those refugees, I'd be angry that sixty years on, those "Palestinian" Arabs, whose fellow Arabs have received from the sale of oil (which requires no effort at all) some twelve trillion dollars since 1973 alone), have not bothered to ask for support, nor been given it, by those fabulously rich Arabs, but instead are intent on hogging so much of the international donors' largesse for themselves. And if the U.N. is bad, UNRWA is merely the U.N. on stilts, as far as being practically a succursale of the Arab League, with such men as John Ging being merely the vicious but plausible non-Arab facade of what is almost entirely an Arab-staffed, Arab-run for Arab interests, organization, hellbent not so much on offering goods and services, but on promoting the Arab cause, and that cause is a Jihad against Israel that has no end.

The rich Gulf Arabs can keep those golf courses in the desert watered, at great, even hideous expense. But why, sixty years after a few hundred thousand Arabs, expecting to be back, left the area of conflict (a conflict started when five Arab armies invaded the nascent state of Israel, with Azzam Pasha, the great=uncle of Ayman al-Zawhiri, the Secretary-General of the Arab League at the time, promising a "massacre" the likes of which would not have been seen, he said, since "the days of the Mongols") should these Gazan Arabs continue to rely so thorougly on the Infidel taxpayers of this world, and not on their fellow extraordinarily rich Arabs? And why should they continue to have a dozen children apiece? What, in your own country, would you think of people who were on the permanent dole, and generation after generation after generation, all the while making war on you and the government that supplied them with every benefit, continued to have a dozen children apiece?

I don't much care to support, indefinitely, this human equivalent of golf courses in Abu Dhabi. Let the rich Arabs do so. They are smothering in their own hundreds and hundreds of unearned, and unmerited, billions.

Sure wild jew

iRAEL PULLED OUT OF THE AREAS LONG AGO WHAT TEN YEARS MORE SO ISRAEL I KNOW YOUR A LITTLE SLOW ARE NOT OCCUPPYING GAZA NOT OCCUPPYING WEST BANK THE REASON ISRAEL AS BY THE WAY EYGPT BLOCK GOODS INTO THE WEST BANK AND GAZA IS CAUSE THEY KEEP BRINGING IN WEAPONS TO ATTACK ISRAEL WHICH IS WHY AMERICA SPENT 245 MILLON DOLLARS ON THE EUGPTIAN BORDER TO BUILD A FENCE OUR POLITICIANS SAY WONT WORK HERE ANS AS FOR INNOCENT STATEMENT.

tHEY ALWAYS CLAIM THERE INNOCENT THAT IS MUSLIMS OF OTHER AGRESSIONS IN THERE EXCUSES TO ATTACK OTHERS HOPE THAT CLEARS IT UP FOR YA BUD READ ALL STATEMENTS BY THE WAY MUGHT HELP YOU FOLLOW CONVERSATIONS.

"Why doesn't Israel have the same right to self-defense as other nations?"

isreal is armed to the teeth with weapons f16s and tanks which it uses against civilians women and children. Isreal should be sanctioned they bombed a UN school killnig children.

Gaza is one big concentration camp the palestinians have no way of escaping they tried to go to egypt but the border guards shot at them so they have to stay in Gaza while they are being genocided with bombs from idf.

"...this human equivalent of golf courses in Abu Dhabi." (referring to Gaza) -- Hugh

Terrific analogy.

Maria gaza is aconcentration campo of muslims own making and jews are not the ones attacking there responding why not ask why are muslims attacking from hospitals schools useing childrens shoulders to shoot guns off.

yOU ARE BLAMEING THE ATTACKED FOR WHAT THE ATTACKERS ARE DOING MARIA TELL YA WHAT TELL ME WHERE YOU LIVE ILL LOB BOMBS AT YOUR HOUSE THEN TELL YOU YOUR OPPRESSING ME ISRAEL BEING ARMED TO THE TEETHE IS CAUSE SEVERAL TIMES THEY BEEN ATTACKED BY MULTIPLE COUNTRIES FROR A FALSE CLAIM BY A PEOPLE WHO IF THEY WIN MAKE NO MISTAKE EVERY JEWISH MAN CHILD AND WOMEN WILL BE KILLED LIKE IN MUMBAI WHERE THEY RAPED AND MUTILATED THE PREGNANT WOMEN WITH HER CHILD WATCHING SWEET HEART TAKE YOUR HEAD OUT OF THE SAND.

MAKE NO MISTAKE JEWS ARE FIGHTING FOR THERE LIFES NOT A PIECE OF LAND AND ISLAM IS NOT A UNDERSTANDING MASTER OF OTHERS FOR HISTORICAL REFERENCE ON ISLAMIC TOLERANCE START AT MU[HAM][MADS OCCUPATION OF JERULSELUAM

tHEY ALWAYS CLAIM THERE INNOCENT THAT IS MUSLIMS OF OTHER AGRESSIONS IN THERE EXCUSES TO ATTACK OTHERS HOPE THAT CLEARS IT UP FOR YA BUD READ ALL STATEMENTS BY THE WAY MUGHT HELP YOU FOLLOW CONVERSATIONS.

Posted by: spcbat

I know all this spcbat. Why are you screaming at me (in capitals)? I am asking you, why are you accusing Raymond Ibraham of all this ignorance?

tHEY ALWAYS CLAIM THERE INNOCENT THAT IS MUSLIMS OF OTHER AGRESSIONS IN THERE EXCUSES TO ATTACK OTHERS HOPE THAT CLEARS IT UP FOR YA BUD READ ALL STATEMENTS BY THE WAY MUGHT HELP YOU FOLLOW CONVERSATIONS.

Posted by: spcbat

I know all this spcbat. Why are you screaming at me (in capitals)? I am asking you, why are you accusing Raymond Ibraham of all this ignorance?

Maria gaza is aconcentration campo of muslims own making and jews are not the ones attacking there responding why not ask why are muslims attacking from hospitals schools useing childrens shoulders to shoot guns off.

yOU ARE BLAMEING THE ATTACKED FOR WHAT THE ATTACKERS ARE DOING MARIA TELL YA WHAT TELL ME WHERE YOU LIVE ILL LOB BOMBS AT YOUR HOUSE THEN TELL YOU YOUR OPPRESSING ME ISRAEL BEING ARMED TO THE TEETHE IS CAUSE SEVERAL TIMES THEY BEEN ATTACKED BY MULTIPLE COUNTRIES FROR A FALSE CLAIM BY A PEOPLE WHO IF THEY WIN MAKE NO MISTAKE EVERY JEWISH MAN CHILD AND WOMEN WILL BE KILLED LIKE IN MUMBAI WHERE THEY RAPED AND MUTILATED THE PREGNANT WOMEN WITH HER CHILD WATCHING SWEET HEART TAKE YOUR HEAD OUT OF THE SAND.

MAKE NO MISTAKE JEWS ARE FIGHTING FOR THERE LIFES NOT A PIECE OF LAND AND ISLAM IS NOT A UNDERSTANDING MASTER OF OTHERS FOR HISTORICAL REFERENCE ON ISLAMIC TOLERANCE START AT MU[HAM][MADS OCCUPATION OF JERULSELUAM

HOPE THAT CLEARS IT UP FOR YA BUD READ ALL STATEMENTS BY THE WAY MUGHT HELP YOU FOLLOW CONVERSATIONS.

Posted by: spcbat

If you are going to be a good poster, there is something I would like to recommend that I believe might help you.

First of all, some of us are very busy. I read and participate on many pro-Israel sites and discussion groups -- I read many news stories throughout the day -- at the same time I try to run a small business.

Consequently, some of us do not have the luxury of "reading all (every one of) the statements on a site," in order to find context. If you want to be a good poster, you might provide context to your accusations so that we do not have search up and down the web page for context. You yourself know the context. Why not provide it? That is all I am asking?

Maria by the way making you armed to the teethe does not give another country the right to attack you unless they made threats against you.
Why is israel armed tothe teeth are they expanding or attacking neighbors withoutreason maybe you want the jews just to committ suicide honey look allover the wotld study it look at every area islam has population numbers and see what happens to the others tell ya what look at christian palistinians ands what the muslim palistinians are doing to them thats the jews future to you .

Lets call it for what it is...anti-semitism. There are anti-semites everywhere in the West. While this anti-semitism may affect only a minority, it has surfaced again and joins hands with Islam, which has always hated and killed Jews. These anti-semites have joined hands with Islam just as they did with Hitler during WWII.

Our nations leaders were smart and competent during WWII. They thoroughly demonized the evil Nazis and Hitler for what it was. So much so that anti-semitism crawled back into the bottle.

Today our incompetent and corrupt leaders encourage Islam and say nothing of this anti-semitism. It has now come back out of the bottle with little or no resistance.

Everyone learned in WWII that anti-semitism is married to anti-Christianism. The Jews are first on their list of people to hate with Christians a close second but with Islam, secularists are even more hated than Christians.

Only an anti-semitic and pro-Islam press can misrepresent the situation as they are with Israel.

spcbat, I see there is an Ibrahim that posted at the top of the page. You were not directing your comments toward Raymond Ibrahim. This is one of the reasons I politely suggested Raymond might consider altering his last name to the Hebrew rendering, "Abraham" or "Avraham." I caught hell from one member for the suggestion. I meant no offence. Really I didn't. "Ibrahim" is the Islamic name for the Hebrew patriarch. Ibrahim was a Muslim. He was not the Jewish patriarch.

Ibrāhīm (Arabic: ابراهيم), the biblical patriarch Abraham (circa born between 1900 BC to 1861 BC – died between 1814 BC to 1716 BC), is an important prophet in Islam. He is the son of Azar and the father of the Prophet Ismail (Ishmael), his firstborn son. Ibrahim is considered the Father of the Prophets. Ibrahim is commonly termed Khalil Allah, or "Friend of God".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_view_of_Abraham

I believe Raymond is a pro-Israel Christian. He probably does not worship Allah but YHWH. Consequently, I am suggesting he consider altering his name to reflect this, in order to avoid confusion. Many people do this, both Jews and Christians do this. It's no big deal. I cannot remember how many times God re-named one of the Biblical heroes. God changed Avram's ("Exalted father") name to Avraham or Abraham ("Father of a multitude"). He changed Jacob to Israel. Again I mean no offense.

SPOT ON
You my friend are absolutely right the problem is they disguise it in situations like whats happening in israel.
Israel gets attacked they respond the u.n. looks to condemn them if the palistinian attackers where christians you would here nothing israel would be cheered on like in darfur where muslims are committing slavery and genocide,

Israel should simply annex both Gaza and the West Bank, as well as the Golan Heights, brace itself for 10 years of dealing with the resultant chaos, and put an end to this 60 year old canker sore. The U.S. and whatever other nations can be found with even a shred of whatever is left of decency in the world should stand behind Israel in this, and do whatever is necessary to see the process through to the end.

Eastview

I totally agree with you, Eastview. But I doubt that neither we nor Israel have the leadership to carry this out. I hope Israel elect's Bebe. He might do it with an "in your face" bold stroke.

posted by spcbat
yOU ARE BLAMEING THE ATTACKED FOR WHAT THE ATTACKERS ARE DOING MARIA TELL YA WHAT TELL ME WHERE YOU LIVE ILL LOB BOMBS AT YOUR HOUSE THEN TELL YOU YOUR OPPRESSING ME ISRAEL BEING ARMED TO THE TEETHE IS CAUSE SEVERAL TIMES THEY BEEN ATTACKED BY MULTIPLE COUNTRIES FROR A FALSE CLAIM BY A PEOPLE WHO IF THEY WIN MAKE NO MISTAKE EVERY JEWISH MAN CHILD AND WOMEN WILL BE KILLED LIKE IN MUMBAI WHERE THEY RAPED AND MUTILATED THE PREGNANT WOMEN WITH HER CHILD WATCHING SWEET HEART TAKE YOUR HEAD OUT OF THE SAND.

Yes isreal was attacked by hamas with rockets and it was wrong but why does isreal go and kill innocent children in a UN school how many bombs has isreal droped palestinian children are dying.
isreal has to stop so no more people get killed

it was horrible what happened in mumbai and how a jewish couple where targeted but it was not only jewish it was christians and hindus to who where targeted by this evil terrorist terrorist dont care what reeligion you are they target anybody

Wild Jew, My take on Ibrahim of the 2:05 PM post is that he is not the Raymond Ibrahim of JW, but I could be wrong.

spcbat, several posters here have gently reminded you that using ALL CAPS is very bad etiquette when posting comments. I would concur with this. I, for one, simply skip over them without reading, and I'm sure others do, too. You've got some good ideas, but they are much more effective if delivered in a way that respects readers and other commenters.

No, Israel at this point should not "annex" Gaza. It has a legal, historic, and moral right to do so, but that right should not be exercised. The "West Bank," however, and the Golan Heights (which has already been formally annexed, and should never again be un-annexed, whatever a smiling government in Syria might smilingly and sweetly suggest), the claims, based independently both on the express terms of the Mandate for Palestine and the territory assigned to it, as well as on the rights of nations to hold onto territory won in a defensive war, and further, on the definition of "secure and defensible borders" that is the key clause in Resolution 242, and finally, on the clear understanding that the wra being conducted against Israel has no end, has no solution, but can be kept within manageable bounds if the Arab rulers are able to claim "Darura" or Necessity -- a necessity that comes from the perception that Israel cannot be overcome militarily and, indeed, can inflict great losses on those who would wish to cause it to disappeear -- as a reason for not going to war.

But the Israelis themselves, who have been so unwilling to recognize the nature of the war against them (and that is understandable: would you not, were you Israeli, not wish to believe that a "solution" is possible, other than that of permanent deterrence? you might well), have got to start understanding Islam, its texts its tenets, the attitudes and atmospherics that explain all those statements by Arab leaders and clerics and diplomats and journalists, put up at www.MEMRI.org, and of course explain the permanent hostility of the Muslim masses, themselves permanently held hostage, though they do not realize it, to the self-primitivizing aspects of Islam, that holds them so in thrall, and stunts both moral and mental growth.

This is one of the reasons I politely suggested Raymond might consider altering his last name to the Hebrew rendering, "Abraham" or "Avraham." I caught hell from one member for the suggestion. I meant no offence.

Posted by: Wild Jew at January 8, 2009 3:57 PM

Are you going to start this crap again? Just because you failed to read the comments in context in this thread and lashed out at another commenter based on your own error does not give you the in-road to politely ask Raymond to change his Arabic surname.

Posted by: Maria at January 8, 2009 4:06 PM

Get a grip, Maria. Start with ceasing to pretend who you are by hiding behind that Christian sounding moniker.

You speak of terrorists, targeting anybody and call for Israel to stop defending themselves.

Do you view Hamas as a terrorist organization?

MARIA DO YOU THINK THEY NEW AND ITS WAS ON PURPOSE LETS GO BEYONG EMOTION.
What purpose would it serve for jews to kill a un school full of kids and excuse me if i doubt the report but lets say its true it would be the worst thing not for hamas or muslims but jews themselves but i feel here from your responce i'm talking to a teenager so i will regress.
Maria war is the ugliest thing on this earth you see things that haunt you every time you close your eyes to some it becomes to much and the easy way out becomes the best with all that said it does not mean the battle should not be had you need to defend your self or you become the other guys nightmare children unfortunaTELY DIE MAYBE YOU SHOULD GO TO U TUBE PUNCH IN HAMAS SHOOTING GUNS OFF CHILDRENS SHOULDERS AT ISRAELIU TROOPS YOUR FIGHTS NOT WITH THE DEAD KIDS OR THE ISRAELI BUT THE GUYS USEING THOSE KIDS AS MARTYRS I HAVE GRAND CHILDREN I HAVE KIDSI SEEN ALOT IN MYLIFE SOME THAT WILL NEVER GO AWAY BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAn i would not fight for right again honey muslims are putting these kids in harms way on purpose for properganda that to me is more sick then guys pulling the trigger you are blameing again the attacked not the attackers if the attackers use chiuldren well very sad but do you stop defending your children cause hamas fights behind its children.

I suggest to those monitoring this site that those who insist on raising their voices, through the repeated unseemly use of capitals, and who furthermore at times seem unhinged in their molly-bloomish interior monologue, ought to be warned that this cannot be tolerated.

I also think, and have thought for quite a long time, that "Abdullah Mikail" -- his pre-Islamic name is Mackey or something -- should be banned. He adds nothing. Even "naseem" was better value.

GOODBYE MY FRIENDS remember this marai and i'm sure i'm not quoteing this right but here it goes.

The only thing evil needs to succeed is for good men and women to doi nothing remember that maria cause what we face is pure evil an ideology as a liberal totally offends my senses remember cause your enemy uses children as shields is no excuse to let them enemny kill everyone you love jews are not evil portrayed in left and right for that matter cartoons they are a people in fear surrounded by a people who have wiped out 6 other religions and counrless cultures in that area the middle east they have killed pretty much everyone else off islam and muslims are not honey innocent.

I must admit to being puzzled. How can there be a "concentration camp" with a border open to the Ummah -- i.e., Egypt?

Why does Hamas need to dig smuggling tunnels to Egypt? Why don't the Egyptians want to deal with the Gazan Muslims, and in fact drive them back into Gaza with gunfire when their separation wall is breached? The Gazan Muslims are also "the best people," aren't they, just like the Egyptian Muslims? The Koran says so, and doesn't Allah know best?

Further, how do starving people in a concentration camp manage to set up DVD stores and enjoy nearly universal cellphone usage? Why do the photos, even un-Photoshopped, from Gaza show that the "starving" population appears to be made up of walrus-sized females, meaty-gutted men, and prepubescent females with faces so fat they're popping out of their hijabs?

Ever since the end of the second world war, and the discovery of the German death camps in Eastern Europe, the question has been asked, "Why didn't the Jews of Europe fight back?" When Jews were rounded up for transport to the camps, they went like sheep to the slaughter. They didn't fight when herded in to cattle cars, and they didn't fight at the doors to the gas chambers, knowing full well what awaited them on the other side.
So my question is, why are Jewish Academics and politicians in America and Europe so supportive of the liberal/left? Why aren't more Jews in the streets to confront these modern-day Nazis masguarding as a religion, and openly calling for a second holocaust?
If any people should have learned from history, it's the Jewish people. but they don't seemed to have learned anything, and appear to be willing to repeat the same errors of judgement that their European cousins committed in not recognizing the threat of Hitler in the 1920s and 30s.
There shouldn't be a single demonstration by Mulims in America and Europe, that Jewish and Christian counter-demonstrators don't out-number them 10 to 1, but that's not what I'm seeing.
"never again", sounds like a hollow phrase to me, considering that Jewish and Christian moral leaders seem so willing to give the streets to to Islamis thugs, and in too many cases, pretend that these evil people aren't anti-semites, but are only fighting for justice for their Islamic cousins in Palestine.
Hitler told the Jews of Europe what he had in store for them, but they wouldn't believe him. Muslims in America and Europe are as clear as Hitler was about what their intentions are, but we don't believe them.
What's wrong with us?

Maria, every posting you put up here comes across as if it were posted by a 10 year old know nothing yet. As for the 'Palestinian children', what the hell do you think they grow up to become? The cruellest killers in Hamas's ranks were once children. And as children, their minds were filled with the sort of volcanic antisemitism which turned them into the most vicious Jew haters and killers on the planet. And their children have more anti-Jewish hatred poured into their heads and welded into their black hearts than what Hitler and his henchmen ever had. These 'children' are already little monsters before their fifth birthdays, and will invariably become the next generation of terrorists. None of them will make a worthwhile contribution to humanity. They are earmarked to become homicide bombers and the coldest blooded killers imaginable unless fate takes a hand in the shape of an untimely early death. They are already monsters as children, and they'll be even worse as adults. Their ambition is to murder Jews and Westerners, and the five year old of today is the homicide bomber who, 15 years from now, blows to bits 15 or 20 innocent Israelis in cafes or on buses, or cold-bloodedly murders and throws overboard a wheelchair-bound American cruise holidaymaker, or worse still, may well plan and execute an Islamist atrocity that pales 9/11 into insignificance. If one of these dies whilst still a child, there will be no shortage of people who might well owe their lives to that happening.

"it was horrible what happened in mumbai and how a jewish couple where targeted but it was not only jewish it was christians and hindus to who where targeted by this evil terrorist terrorist dont care what reeligion you are they target anybody
Posted by: Maria at 4:06 PM"

Maria, why do I get the feeling that you are a Moslim guy using a Christian girl's name, however? The Moslim terrorists were not religion blind in Mombay as you are protending it out. They spared the Moslims. They were clearly targeting non-Moslims. Why you are reluctant to call them Moslim terrorists? Is there any reason to do that?

Maria, if you were neutral then you will learn a great deal about Islam here. However, if you are a Moslim, which I think you are, then you can still learn a lot from us. You only need to keep your mind open and active. I am sure in a few weeks you will change your mind about Islam.

Good luck MARIA?

Ibrahim, it's hard for me to believe the struggles of the Gazans when I've seen photos of them waiting on line to use a ferris wheel during Eid al-Fitr which wasn't that long ago. What kind of concentration camp features a ferris wheel?

"Israel will neither annex those regions and give Palestinians the rights of citizens, nor release them and leave the Palestinians to create their own national identity."

Why would Israel annex Gaza? It's a historical part of Egypt. The Gazans speak an Egyptian dialect. In fact, Palestinian reporter Khalid Abu Toameh a few years ago wrote of how security forces from Gaza that were sent to the West Bank had to be sent home because the West Bankers couldn't understand them. Why don't the Egyptians who control Gaza's western border help their brothers instead of waiting for al-Yahood to do it?

"By blocking the entrance of food and medicine."

The temporary cesefire was meant to allow humanitarian aid into Gaza. Plus this site has documented that Gazans have received truck carrying tons of food and medicine. I hardly see any Gazans bearing skeletal frames.

"By the bulldozing of Palestinian homes, rendering them homeless"

This isn't done randomly. This is done to the homes of terrorists and homes used as tunnel entrances for rockets.

"If Palestinians were given their separate state, including control over borders and trade routes, Israeli aggressive response to their attacks would be understandable."

I know you don't mean that.

Maria, why do I get the feeling that you are a Moslim guy using a Christian girl's name, however? The Moslim terrorists were not religion blind in Mombay as you are protending it out. They spared the Moslims. They were clearly targeting non-Moslims. Why you are reluctant to call them Moslim terrorists? Is there any reason to do that?

Maria, if you were neutral then you will learn a great deal about Islam here. However, if you are a Moslim, which I think you are, then you can still learn a lot from us. You only need to keep your mind open and active. I am sure in a few weeks you will change your mind about Islam.

Good luck MARIA?

Posted by: MusHuntCowboy

Maria claims that she is a Christian. About two days ago I asked her if she is a Muslim, but she replied by calling me stupid, and then claimed to be a Christian. All in one sentence, too. Hmmm.

OK, Maria, I'm obviously not the only one who thinks you're a Muslim. Your comments indicate that you are.

I just watched a video posted on another thread by Miira.

This video shows how Hamas murders other 'Palestinans'. Shooting up a wedding, beating the groom to death, acting like armed , murderous brutes (that they are), and all because the people there, all men, were singing and playing music...

All this on film and as ugly and disturbing as it gets...Proof that Hamas is an evil entity that needs to be taken out by the roots...

Shouts of Allahu Ackbar could be heard along with the gunfire...

Anyone who supports Hamas supports their evil actions, and are then evil themselves...

Hugh, a certain poster here has been repeatably warned about posting in caps, usually with suggestions from other posters that are apparently far too subtle or gentle to register. When his attention is finally gained by someone whacking him over the head using equally as rude language, he might behave himself for a while, but sooner or later he lapses back into incoherence delivered in caps without punctuation. The substance of his comments, if you can discern it through all the jumble, is not necessarily out of line with that of other posts here, but it would be good if he could exercise some elementary writing discipline.

Posted by: MusHuntCowboy
Maria, why do I get the feeling that you are a Moslim guy using a Christian girl's name, however?

mushuntCowboy why do i get the feeling that your nic name is advocating killing? I am christian i have been reading this website for 2 years I dont post on here until 2 days ago i felt i had to say something becasue everyone on here is blind to what isreal is Doing becasue they hate islam.

I agree with some of the article that robert spencer has put out but i disagree with what he says about isreal yes Islam has invaded other countrys and taken over but that does not make what isreal is doing in gaza is right. isreal is using illegal weapons against the palestinians bombing schools the palestinians cant get out of gaza and isreal knows this and they are still dropping bombs to me thats systematic genocide

Posted by: champ
OK, Maria, I'm obviously not the only one who thinks you're a Muslim. Your comments indicate that you are.

chimp champ all because i am against isreals actions in gaza how does that make me a muslim? i am sure there are lots of palestinian christians against isreal to who have suffered by illegal occupation does that make them muslims to?

Spcbat is a good anti-jihadist but a lousy word smith.
And seems unable or unwilling to change his/her unusual writing style.

I'm not too anxious to complain because my own writing style is often suspect...That's because I paid $2.00 American, to a drunken sailor on a Somalian whaling ship, who taught me everything I know.
Which is not much...What do you expect for two bucks?

So look spcbat...It's easy, just edit your own writing for readability, lay off the caps, and everything is cool... :)

I agree with, duh_swami, spcbat. Please don't leave, just leave off the caps. Stick around, you are one of us!!

Spirit Of 1683, your 4:34 PM post was very, very good. Some things never change, although "modern" multiculturalists seem intent on ignoring quite a large number of timeless truths.

I don't usually quote Bible verses, but one that I learned as a child seems particularly apt for your post: "Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old, he will not depart from it." Prov 22:6 (KJV). Although this was probably intended as advice for raising children in the ways of goodness and compassion, it would appear to apply equally to children brainwashed from a young age with Islamic negative stereotypes of Jews.

Maria...I am against Israels actions in Gaza also...They are not acting strong enough.

Hamas is full of dramatic but deadly theater which
is the theater of evil. There is no way to explain their actions and behaviors as anything other than evil.

We all know the phony history of the 'Palestinian' people, we have seen that their 'chosen' leaders not only abuse each other, Hamas versus Fatah, but we have also seen how Hamas treats other 'Palestinians'. We have seen how the brave fighters killed unarmed 'Palestinans', at a wedding because they were singing, we have seen how 'Hamas is brainwashing 'Palestinian' children, and using them as shields and weapons, and objects of fake publicity. And these things are not isolated incidents, they are Hamas.
Fatah is no better being cut from the same islamic cloth...

Anyone who supports that supports evil...

Go Israel!! Defend your Jewish People and Jewish Homeland!!! You have every right to defend Israel against the evils of Hamas and Company!!

GO ISRAEL!!!!!!

(sorry, Hugh, lost my head for a second there and couldn't resist the caps :-)

Posted by: duh_swami
Maria...I am against Israels actions in Gaza also...They are not acting strong enough.

Hamas is full of dramatic but deadly theater which
is the theater of evil. There is no way to explain their actions and behaviors as anything other than evil.

We all know the phony history of the 'Palestinian' people, we have seen that their 'chosen' leaders not only abuse each other, Hamas versus Fatah, but we have also seen how Hamas treats other 'Palestinians'. We have seen how the brave fighters killed unarmed 'Palestinans', at a wedding because they were singing, we have seen how 'Hamas is brainwashing 'Palestinian' children, and using them as shields and weapons, and objects of fake publicity. And these things are not isolated incidents, they are Hamas.
Fatah is no better being cut from the same islamic cloth...

Anyone who supports that supports evil...

I agree with you about hamas they are a terrorist group and they are not helping the palestinians and there suicide attacks on isrealis are evil the palestinians should get rid of hamas but saying that now that isreal has killed palestinian women and children that will anger the palestinians to turn to hamas even more now.
i am sure that isreal wants the palestinians to vote for hamas so they can use that as a excuse to continue the illegal occupation

DEATH FROM ABOVE AND FIRE IN THE STREETS

No Fauxistinian is innocent.
The jew hating starts from the cradle to the grave.

Hamas and their PLO enemy are a religious death cult that deserve to be wiped out.

Please IDF do not stop.

FORWARD BRAVE SOLDIERS.

Fight Fight Fight.

Maria:

Let's try a hypothetical. You live next door to a neighbor (let's call him Joe) who constantly shouts that he wants you and your family dead. He calls you "pigs" and "dogs." The noise is deafening. However, to get to his house, his driveway runs through your property. The law says he has to have your permission to pass through, and passing through must be peaceful.

On dozens of occasions, Joe has sent a child or a wife or four strapped with bombs down your driveway toward your house. Sometimes they plead that they're on the way to the hospital, or to buy medicine, or they need food, or the like. The few times you've let them through, they've blown themselves up in an attempt to kill you and your family. Now you stop them and turn them back because of their past behavior. You value your life and your childrens' lives, and you do not trust them.

Moreover, on a daily basis, Joe fires off rockets from his childrens' nursery into your house and property. He brings those rockets up from the basement, directly beneath his wives' rooms. The only reason you and your family are still alive is because you've spent an enormous amount of time and money building defenses like reinforced safe rooms, alarms, and the like.

Joe has another way out to the street -- except it runs through yet another person's property, and this other neighbor (let's call him Fred) won't let him through either, even though Fred pays a lot of money to Joe every month so rockets aren't fired at him. Fred hates you just as much as Joe does, but won't supply Joe with a water main or electricity, or allow trucks to go up his driveway to Joe's house. In fact, Fred has a team of security (let's call them Ninjas) that have shoot-to-kill orders if any of Joe's family try to come onto Fred's property.

Now there's a mob on the street screaming that you are suffocating Joe and his many wives and multitude of children, while Fred smiles, his Ninjas cock their weapons, and the rockets continue to fall in your garden. Fred knows that Joe, his tribe, and the people on the street will eventually force you to abandon the house you've built and loved and raised a family in over many years. That's the plan, anyway.

Posted by: LosHwy66

I agree with your above comment, word for word!

'Just look at the spate of attacks this week on Jews and Jewish institutions around the world: a car ramming into a synagogue in France; a Chabad menorah and Jewish-owned shops sprayed with swastikas in Belgium; a banner at an Australian rally demanding "clean the earth from dirty Zionists!"; demonstrators in the Netherlands chanting "Gas the Jews"; and in Florida, protestors demanding Jews "Go back to the ovens!"'

It would be nice if the WSJ article had noted just who it was that committed these acts, at least for those where there is evidence. The sloppy wording of the reporter merely invites mis-interpretation. Thus it's pretty clear that the miscreants were not Belgians, or French, or Dutch, etc.; but Moslems resident in Belgium, France, or the Netherlands, etc.

http://www.jewishpress.com/pageroute.do/37723
[-]
The War Against Terror That No One Protested.

Over the years, 65,000 people have been killed in the war with the Tamils in Sri Lanka, almost all of them civilians.

Meanwhile not a single Solidarity-with-the-Tamil-Tigers protest has been organized on a single Western campus or in a single downtown square. Jewish leftists have not taken to the streets to demand an end to the war of aggression against the Tamils. Leftist websites have not proclaimed every injury of a Tamil civilian to be a Nazi-like war crime by Sri Lanka and an act of genocide.
[-]

The War on Terror That No One Protested

http://www.jewishpress.com/pageroute.do/37723

[-]

Over the years, 65,000 people have been killed in the war with the Tamils in Sri Lanka, almost all of them civilians.

Meanwhile not a single Solidarity-with-the-Tamil-Tigers protest has been organized on a single Western campus or in a single downtown square. Jewish leftists have not taken to the streets to demand an end to the war of aggression against the Tamils. Leftist websites have not proclaimed every injury of a Tamil civilian to be a Nazi-like war crime by Sri Lanka and an act of genocide.
[-]

If I recall correctly, I think spcbat may have some kind of vision impairment. Or was that someone else?

I haven't mastered html coding so I use asterisks to enclose any phrase that I would normally italicise for emphasis (before that, not understanding netiquette, I would capitalise what I would have italicised).

spcbat - try using an asterisk * each side of a phrase you want to stress, rather than italicising it. Add a little note: "emphasis added".

Another useful trick is to compose your posting somewhere else on your computer, and reread it, slowly, checking for any problems. If you feel particularly strongly: wait a bit. Count to ten. Breathe deeply. Reread what you just wrote, and ask yourself: do I want this to represent my name, in the archives, perhaps for years?

Remember: the tidier and easier-to-read the comments are, the more attractive this site is to new visitors.

Think about the demonstrations we have been seeing: the anti-Israel pro-jihad demonstrations; the pro-Israel, anti-jihad demonstrations.

The anti-Israel pro-Hamas/ jihad demonstrations have been, very often, a most unseemly spectacle: ugly, violent, disorderly, hateful and incoherent, with riotous behaviour, screaming, flag burnings, and destruction of property.

The pro-Israel demonstrations have made a very good impression - especially upon the police! - because the people participating have been polite and pleasant.

There should be a similar telling contrast, on this site, between the postings by the Muslims and their shills, and the postings by the counter-Jihadists. That does not mean that we are not allowed to express anger, grief and defiance, sometimes in very strong terms; but we can do it rationally, we can command ourselves.

I agree with you about hamas they are a terrorist group and they are not helping the palestinians and there suicide attacks on isrealis are evil the palestinians should get rid of hamas but saying that now that isreal has killed palestinian women and children that will anger the palestinians to turn to hamas even more now.
i am sure that isreal wants the palestinians to vote for hamas so they can use that as a excuse to continue the illegal occupation

posted by the dhimmi

The palestinian people knew "exactly" who HAMAS was, what they stood for, and their open commitment to murder Jews when they democratically "VOTED" them into power. Who are you trying to kid? The majority knew perfectly well when they marked their X that HAMAS was going to do everything in its power to kill Jews. Most palestinians are getting just what they asked for. Too bad some children must pay with their lives. Not that HAMAS gives a sh*t.

From Eastview above:

Queen Raina, the wife of King Abdullah II pof Jordan, is described in Wikipedia as having been born of "Palestinian" parents in Kuwait. In reality, of course, she is Jordanian.

And so was Arafart, the greatest deceiver of them all, the inventor of the "Palestinians", who was born in Cairo.

No, the Arabs of Gaza (and of Judea and Samaria) have to be resettled among Arab nations. The stinking rich Gulf Arabs and the Saudis have to be told that the jig is up. But don't expect any such action from your Muslim president. Hussain Obama will advance the causes of islam and Socialism/Marxism.

I shudder when I think about the damage his administration will do to all of us. Obama can bring about the collapse of America, and he most likely will.

RtL, I agree that the Arabs in Gaza and West Bank who do not wish to accept Israeli citizenship and live peacefully under Israeli law should simply be resettled elsewhere. But my fear is that a cobbled together "two state solution" is destined to fail for a multitude of reasons, and the failure will be far bloodier than what's going on now.

We have already seen what a beta version of Palestine looks like, in Gaza - call it "Nightmare in Palestine" v0.1. Do we really need to continue development of this ridiculous game all the way to final release version v1.0 to know what it is all about? Time to halt development now. Its final release will only result in blowing up and killing a lot of people.

About that part of "netiquette" relating to compositions with multiple word misspellings. I suspect part of this is due to usage of browsers that do not have spell checkers that flag misspellings. Most of us don't take the trouble to compose posts in a separate document with a spell checker, instead posting directly into the JW Comment box and hoping for the best. Previewing posts before submission helps, but if you're in a hurry misspellings can still be missed.

This problem is, at least, easy to fix, mostly. The Firefox browser automatically spell checks words as they are typed in, flagging misspellings with a red underline on the fly. To my knowledge, Internet Explorer (the default browser for Windows users), does not do this, or if it does I haven't been able to figure out how. I can't say anything about any of the other browsers out there.

Firefox also has another huge advantage over IE, in that it automatically wraps the page contents to the window size as font sizes are ramped up and down (using Cntl+ and Cntl-, respectively). IE does not do this, instead forcing users to use a scroll bar. This is a major headache, and is one of the principal reasons I don't use IE.

Firefox can be downloaded for free at http://www.mozilla.com/firefox

DDA,

I haven't mastered html coding so I use asterisks to enclose any phrase that I would normally italicise for emphasis (before that, not understanding netiquette, I would capitalise what I would have italicised).

Dumbles, html coding is quite easy to learn, and easy to master. Contact me for a quick tutorial on how to use these great tools. I'm a yahoo type of guy. Get my drift?

And Eastview, yes, Firefox/Mozilla is far superior, IMHO, to IE.

I think the Israel should ignore the U.N. and not being held back by them, nor by the supporters of Hamas and other Islamic Organizations, and continue with the assault on Hamas, and should not be held back by anyone, especially the U.N.(Unitedly Neglectful) and due what is needed to be done. Because remeber, the U.N. is just as bad as the League of Nations, maybe even worst, because they allow Genocide to happen, right under their noses even.(Examples: Rwanda Genocide, the Concentration Camps in North Korea, Darfur, the Genocide of Christians/Jews/Buddhists/Hindus/Druze/Bahá'í and other religions being destroyed slowly in the Middle East by Islam and many others). Israel should just wipeout all traces/members/leaders of Hamas and any other Islamic Terrorist Organizations that threaten them, especially the capturing or the elimination of Islamic leaders who are either the founders, supporters or current leaders of these Islamic Terrorists Organizations.

Just look at the spate of attacks this week on Jews and Jewish institutions around the world: a car ramming into a synagogue in France; a Chabad menorah and Jewish-owned shops sprayed with swastikas in Belgium; a banner at an Australian rally demanding "clean the earth from dirty Zionists!"; demonstrators in the Netherlands chanting "Gas the Jews"; and in Florida, protestors demanding Jews "Go back to the ovens!"
..................

Here's one more--the Holocaust Memorial in San Francisco has been defaced several times in the last few days. The most recent article I could find (below) does not have the latest--the memorial was spray painted red a couple of days ago.

http://www.ktvu.com/news/18384744/detail.html#-

Hugh,

"Abdullah Mikail" has identified himself here on JW/DW as Abdullah Mackay, irl. He is a member of the islamic asociation of North Texas (iant) which operates the Dallas Central mosque. The imam there is Yusuf Kavakci, the muslim cleric who gave a controversial invocation at the Texas legislature a few years ago. Kavakci is also the father of Merve Kavakci, an islamist and former member of the Turkish parliament expelled for insisting on her right to wear a headscarf in parliament. Merve Kavakci is currently a part-time professor at George Washington University in the Institute for European, Russian and Eurasian
Studies (IERES).

Ibrahim, Mikhail, Maria...

The one thing they have in common: They're all hit-and-run drivers. They hit our site and run for the hills, leaving us hopping mad. They love it. What a bunch of islamo-sadists.

Okay... Well, if you insist.. It's really two things. They're an unholy trinity of sophomoric troglodytes with impenetrable skulls that contain no gray matter at all, just plenty of hot air.

Hugh-pardon the caps:

FOLKS-I SUGGEST WE NO LONGER ANSWER ANY OF THEIR POSTS. ALL THEY DO IS VEX US INTO ANSWERING WITH SOMETIMES UP TO 300 POSTS. THEY ARE LUDICROUS!!!

Amen.

"They're an unholy trinity of sophomoric troglodytes with impenetrable skulls that contain no gray matter at all, just plenty of hot air."

That's hilarious, lorfalcon, LMAO! I would have to agree with you, also.

Raymond always signs his posts as Raymond. Not Ibrahim. That should be clear enough. He shouldn't have to respell his name. It is what it is. As for the poster Ibrahim's deceptively reasoned post. Better minds than mine do far more of a job on him than I ever could, so I will just sit back and watch them do their work on him.

Really good analogies, Hugh and Marwan's Daughter.

Spcbat's cool when she puts some time into her posts. It was hilarious when she called AM "Officer Barbrady."

I am new to this site. I haven't read through all the articles - but was surprised by the comments to this particular article. From certain claims it would seem that most members/commenters are "neutral" and here to gain a greater insight into Islam (and/or Jihad). However from the comments - it seems that most members are not in fact neutral but rather pro-Israel and anti-Hamas. Is it just me, or is neutral not supposed to imply that you kind of sit on the fence and not render a preference for either "side" ?This does not imply that they are pro-Jewish and anti-Islam - but I guess anti-terrorists (whether alleged or factual). Also by accusing other of being Muslim masquerading as Christians, why does a poster need to masquerade in the first place - do they fear condemnation from other members - or do they simply want to defend muslims or terrorists - and why would they need to do that if it's supposed to be "neutral".

Nevertheless, I was raised as a Muslim, with a Muslim father and Christian mother - but as an adult am neither.

I am not neutral - I condemn Hamas for contravening the ceasefire and attacking Israel. I condemn Israel for all the "collateral damage", I don't believe that violence and war achieves anything anywhere, ever.

I wanted to share an opinion by Marianne Williamson. Since reading it - I agree with alot of what she says as a spiritualist - as a realist and a mother however, I still find it hard to watch corpses of little children being carried, regardless of the nationality. Someone commented that these kids just grow up to be terrorists anyway - for you I send you love and light and hope that you never have to carry your own dead child's corpse in your arms.

Towards a Miracle in the Middle East

By Marianne Williamson

Today is a day to cry for Israel. Today is a day to cry for the Palestinians. Today is a day to cry for all of us.

Today is a day of war.

War anywhere, at this point in our history, is an action that threatens peace everywhere. Particularly when it comes to the Middle East. From its spiritual significance to its political significance, it is humanity's hot spot. It always has been and probably always will be. It's where all the rivers of human perspective meet, to become either a cauldron of hatred or an ocean of love.

While it might be tempting to “take sides” between Israel and the Palestinians, spiritually there are no sides to be taken. God does not give us victory in battle but rather lifts us above the battlefield. As a generation, our moral imperative is to end war period, to somehow move beyond the idea that war is an acceptable means of solving problems. Anything less then that makes us attitudinal conspirators with a line of probability leading to nuclear catastrophe.

According to Swiss psychologist Carl Jung, humanity's biggest problems cannot be solved; they must be outgrown. Our task is to create a field of consciousness in which the idea of war has dropped from the ethers.

So how do we outgrow war?

The first thing we do is to accept the possibility that the end of war is possible. In fact, in the words of Congressman Dennis Kucinich, “We must challenge the belief that war is inevitable.” We must embrace the possibility that a world without war could exist.

Secondly, we must mature beyond the belief that the thinking that got us into this mess is thinking can lead us out of it. “The problems of the world will not be solved on the level of thinking we were at when we created them,” wrote Einstein. We must realize that the mortal ego will not provide us with a solution to the existence of war, because it itself is the problem. Notions such as, “The Israelis have a right to defend themselves,” and “The Palestinians have taken so much abuse; what do you expect them to do?” are both insidious drivers of war masquerading as principled stands. They keep us attached to the very duality that is the root of separation and war.

On a spiritual level, our greatest service to both Israelis and Palestinians is to reach for a higher truth within our own minds. An essential principle of metaphysical reality is that all minds are joined; as any of us are drawn to higher thoughts, then all of us are drawn to higher thoughts. As we ourselves embrace a higher truth, we help create an anti-gravitational force field that lifts all minds above separation, hatred and war.

For all our talk about wanting to be the change, how many of us are siding now against one side or the other in the current Mid-East conflict? If you really want to help the situation there, ask God to remove from your heart any judgment you have against the Israelis or the Palestinians. Any thought of judgment you hold is like a gun that you yourself are firing.

The human race is evolving to the realization that what is happening on the level of consciousness both precedes and determines what happens in the world. War is just an effect, not a cause. With the power of our minds, we can move beyond the level of effect to the level of cause. There, and only there, can we wipe out what President Franklin Roosevelt called the “beginnings of all war.”

As Americans, we have a creed --- a set of principles enshrined and institutionalized in our founding documents. First and foremost among them is that “all men are created equal.” Period. End of story. Don't be lured into thinking that either Israelis or Palestinians have been either the perfect innocents or the perfect victims here; such thinking serves neither. The greatest gift you can give to both is to realize that on a spiritual level, Israelis and Palestinians are one. Their only true reality is the reality of whom they are in this moment, freed from any thoughts of the past.

Complexity is of the ego; do not linger there. Of course there is a complicated history to the struggle currently playing out in the Middle East, and that complicated history has significance and relevance for traditional political formulation. So leave that to the traditional politicians. Our task as seekers and purveyors of a higher human consciousness is to move beyond traditional political notions, to a holistic politics that embraces the relevance of psychological and spiritual realities to the political issues of our time. As students of Gandhi and Dr. King, we know that moving beyond the violence in our own hearts is essential if we are to be conduits for the creation of a world at peace. The truly new politics goes beyond mere “post-partisan” hand-shaking and collaboration among former rivals. It takes us to a new kind of thinking as a basis for the creation of a new kind of world.

Traditionalists can call us naïve all they want to. But anyone who thinks that human hatred can simply be bombed away…they are naïve. Anyone who thinks we can continue to tolerate violence on this planet at ever-increasing levels and have such conflagrations not lead to the ultimate cataclysm of nuclear catastrophe… they are naïve. Anyone who thinks that the narrowness of a rationalistic, mechanistic human perspective can lead us out of the hell which that perspective itself has created…they are naïve. And those who see prayer as merely “symbol, not substance”… they are naïve. Prayer is hardly just symbol; it is a mover of hearts, and thus a mover of mountains.

Mountains we now need desperately to move.

Through the grace of God we are not powerless; according to A Course in Miracles, moving mountains is small compared to what we can do. War is at heart a spiritual problem and it can only be eradicated with a spiritual solution….a solution that lies within all of us.

Martin Luther King Jr. said there is a power in our hearts more powerful than the power of bullets. He described Mahatma Gandhi as the first person in the world to take the love ethic of Jesus Christ and turn it into a broad scale social force for good. (To Gandhi himself, non-violence was not just the love ethic of Jesus, but rather the heart of all religion and the heart of reality itself.) On today's geo-political landscape, we see hatred turned into a political force all around us; the politics of non-violence turns love into a political force. The question for any conscious human being, much less spiritual seeker, is, “How can I help do that?” Only the power in our hearts will be able to eradicate the idea of war, then the reality of war, from the experience of the human race.

According to Gandhi, the problem with the world was that humanity was not in its right mind. And arguably, we still are not. War, quite simply, is insane. For those of us who wish to be part of the solution to war - not part of the problem -- it is time to change our own minds, to accept a healing of our own war-like thoughts, in order to create a new field of possibility. Whether dealing with the transformation of the individual or of the transformation of the world, only what is changed on the level of consciousness becomes a fundamental change in the conditions of the world.

For five minutes each day, be a spiritual activist.

You probably already know what to do. Turn off the TV; neither CNN, MSNBC or FOX know the news. They only know data.

Turn off the bright lights. Put down the newspaper. And go within.

However you do it, turn your attention to the God of your understanding. Surrender your own hatred, give over your own wars, and ask that this year you be lifted above the violence that still lives inside your heart.

With your eyes closed, see on one side of your inner vision the Israeli people. See their physicality, their mannerisms, as you recognize them on the material plane. Now see a light within their hearts, and slowly watch that light expand, extending beyond the confines of their bodies. See the bodies begin to fade before the greater light of their eternal selves.

Now with your inner eye look to the other side of your inner vision, and see there the Palestinian people. See their physicality, their mannerisms, as you recognize them on the material plane. Now see a light within their hearts, and slowly watch that light expand, extending beyond the confines of their bodies. See the bodies begin to fade before the greater light of their eternal selves.

Now using your inner eye - your greatest source of power - bear witness to what happens as the inner light of the Israelis begins to merge with the inner light of the Palestinians. Bear witness to the merging of their spiritual selves. Simply watch and focus, for what you focus on grows stronger.

You are bearing witness now to a higher truth, thus using the power of your mind to draw a heavenly truth into material manifestation. In the presence of higher thought forms, lower ones fall of their own dead weight. In the presence of light, darkness disappears. In the presence of eternal truth, temporal lies begin to fall away.

In the words of Dr. King, “No lie can last forever.” The idea that the Israeli and Palestinian people are truly separate, or have separate needs, is simply a lie of the mortal mind. Spiritually, we are all one. Israelis and Palestinians were created by the same God; in Him they are equal and they are joined eternally. Only thought forms have separated them. Thought forms of guilt and separation have been handed down to children born innocent of such lies, generation after generation; those are the true enemy here, not either group of people.

As any of us move beyond the fear-based thought forms of separation and guilt to the truth of our eternal oneness, it becomes easier for everyone else to do so as well. Let's give up the way-too-easy, so-American way of chiding either Israelis or Palestinians for their difficulty in forgiving the past. What both peoples have endured is almost unimaginable, and only the truly sainted among us should even for a minute consider judging either side.

We don't have to; and when in our own right minds, we don't want to.

Use the power of your mind to create a new possibility… a miracle in the Middle East.

As the poet Rumi wrote so eloquently, “Out beyond all ideas of right and wrong, there is a field. I'll meet you there.” So go there now. Such thoughts are not just poetry, or even symbol, any longer. In the world that's being born, they're the stuff of a new politics.

No more simply asking, “But what can I do?” Go even further, to “What can I think? What can I pray for? What can I meditate on?” Pray for the removal of all walls that separate any of us from any of us, not only on our earth but also in our minds. Pray for the removal of the guns that still fire within your own mind as you accuse or withhold your forgiveness from anyone. And pray that at this perilous hour, those of us whose lives have not been touched by the horrors of war can be of service to those whose lives have been.

Dear God, please deliver them.
And dear God, deliver us all.

"As Americans, we have a creed --- a set of principles enshrined and institutionalized in our founding documents. First and foremost among them is that “all men are created equal.”"

Alas, not everyone shares that creed. In fact, some people really do fiercely and absolutely believe that their deity commands them to rape, rob, and kill nonbelievers, and that if they do they (well, the males, anyway) will be rewarded with endless sex and food in heaven. That's their "true reality." Their book says so, they say so repeatedly to each other and to us, and this actual reality cannot be contradicted by gentle book-writing therapists meditating gracefully over expensive sandalwood candles in the safety of their expensive Western homes.

But please, go ahead! Focus on the light! See the merging of the beings! Or whatever. Maybe it'll help.

Personally, I think any of these self-promoted spiritualists' equinamity would vanish like smudge smoke the minute a rocket hit their kid's school.

Roux.

I believe you're on the wrong site. This was the one you were looking for:]

http://www.chopra.com/

Most of us here have been there and done that. We're over it and have steeled our resolve. We here at Jihad Watch have come to the conclusion we can NOT keep looking the other way while our way of life and freedoms are stolen from us. So, yes, we may be a little vitriolic at times, but in the end we cherish everyone's freedom of speech.

In short, if Rumi were alive in Iran today, he'd be stoned for blasphemy. If Gandhi were to dare and fast at Mecca, he'd be dragged through the streets and torn to pieces. And if Martin Luther King, Jr. attempted his credos of love in Saudia, he would be made a personal eunuch and slave of the royal family.

I DO pray every day. I pray for introspection from muslims. But it just never comes. Maybe you can figure out why...

The Palestinians have proven to the world they are unable to handle a state.

Israel has proven they CAN handle a state.

Need I say more?

DDA, there are many online tutorials on html. The one I use is the "HTML Pitstop" located at http://www.pageresource.com/html/ . Eveything you need for bold, italics, etc., with examples, is contained in the first section "Getting Started: HTML".

Roux, in principle I can't disagree with anything you said, but it takes two to tango, i.e., it doesn't work if while you're concentrating on your third eye the other guy sneaks up behind you and bonks you over the head. Find a way to lead the Islmamists to discovering that third eye, then get back to us and let us know how you did it.

Roux,
First off, why would you think this was a "neutral" site? Its very name, Jihad Watch, should have been your first clue that there would not be many neutral posts here.
That said, I want to say that I was also on a path of spiritual enlightenment for many years, and I remember reading M Williamson when she first published a long time ago. I walked down many paths hoping to become a better person, to make this world a better place to be, one that was filled with love, harmony and peace, rather than one filled with hate and intolerance. I felt that if enough of us believed the same way that we could really make a difference. Maybe there just weren't enough "True Believers" to make this happen. Or, more to the point, perhaps all the players have to be on the same page using the same set of rules before change can be effected, and the battle won. Sadly, that's the way I see the state of world affairs -- a battle between good and evil, and I see Islam on the side of evil. The days of Ghandi are over, dear Roux, and we can no longer afford to sit on our collective asses, wrap ourselves wreaths of gold/white or blue lights of love and turn the other cheek while evil in the guise of Islam runs rampant over the world, proclaiming "Death to ALL infidels"! I believe they are dead serious, and I take that personally, as you should, as well, since you admit to being a non-believer.
So, my dear Roux, thank you for visiting this site, but if you are looking for warm and fuzzy, I believe you are at the wrong place.

Roux,
First off, why would you think this was a "neutral" site? Its very name, Jihad Watch, should have been your first clue that there would not be many neutral posts here.
That said, I want to say that I was also on a path of spiritual enlightenment for many years, and I remember reading M Williamson when she first published a long time ago. I walked down many paths hoping to become a better person, to make this world a better place to be, one that was filled with love, harmony and peace, rather than one filled with hate and intolerance. I felt that if enough of us believed the same way that we could really make a difference. Maybe there just weren't enough "True Believers" to make this happen. Or, more to the point, perhaps all the players have to be on the same page using the same set of rules before change can be effected, and the battle won. Sadly, that's the way I see the state of world affairs -- a battle between good and evil, and I see Islam on the side of evil. The days of Ghandi are over, dear Roux, and we can no longer afford to sit on our collective asses, wrap ourselves wreaths of gold/white or blue lights of love and turn the other cheek while evil in the guise of Islam runs rampant over the world, proclaiming "Death to ALL infidels"! I believe they are dead serious, and I take that personally, as you should, as well, since you admit to being a non-believer.
So, my dear Roux, thank you for visiting this site, but if you are looking for warm and fuzzy, I believe you are at the wrong place.

Right on, NolaMaria

My own hopes for human progress and a better world have been dashed by forces beyond my influence or control; so that I was forced to alter my worldview to reflect reality, and thus, better cope.

If anyone is in doubt about the evil of anti-semitism and the evil of ISLAM try browsing the TERRORISM AWARENESS website. This can also be accessed through www,frontpagemag,com.
Please listen and watch carefully to the history of the Holy Land and the Jewish nation and then decide where your loyalties lay.

If anyone is in doubt about the evil of anti-semitism and the evil of ISLAM try browsing the TERRORISM AWARENESS website. This can also be accessed through www,frontpagemag,com.
Please listen and watch carefully to the history of the Holy Land and the Jewish nation and then decide where your loyalties lay.

As to Roux's posting of Oprah's creation, Marianne Williamson's ode to utopianism I say, Oh Pleeeezzz!