Lockerbie bomber gets hero's welcome in Libya

Reminiscent of the cheering, passing out candy, etc. that Muslims demonstrated worldwide after 9/11.

Note the non-apology issued by his attorney.

I wish that inbred son of a whore could have been tried here in Texas.

Good to see justice.

And as usual, nothing but blood-lust from Americans.

Its strange how other families (British families) of the victims agree with him being released however it is the Yanks and Rednecks foaming at the mouths.

"I wish that inbred son of a whore could have been tried here in Texas."

Fair trials are best.

Can't trust you rednecks with anything.

H
e deserved the death sentence, but at least he'll die soon, as should all terrorists.

REDNECKS RULE and islam shall perish from the face of the Earth, along with it's demon-god satan.

It's in Islam's DNA to celebrate killers. Samir Kuntar, who smashed a four year old Israeli girl's head in with the butt of a rifle, was celebrated and given a medal by Syria upon his release from prison by the Israelis. Why they released this guy is beyond me.

http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2008/11/syria-honors-child-killer-samir-kuntar.html

Can't trust you rednecks with anything.

Posted by: Mohammad

On the other hand, as history proves, can trust Islam for brutal barbarism. Ain't Islam wonderful, M?

The welcome home back to Libya was so hearty that it added thirty years to this muslim's life, pbuh.

"And as usual, nothing but blood-lust from Americans."

So you are saying you are against capital punishment as prescribed by Sharia then? Sure Mohammad, you're all about justice. I'm guessing if that had been a Jewish terrorist who had blown up a Mosque full of Muslims, you would have different ideas about what amounts to justice. But then again we don't hear about those type of attacks too often, so that situation is purely hypothetical.

"REDNECKS RULE"

Rule what exactly?

No one likes Rednecks. Even their ‘fellow’ Americans hate them. Obesity, stupidity, greed, guns, violence, religious fanaticism, racism etc. etc. etc.

Wait for the lawsuit. He was in a Scottish prison and they apparently/possibly failed to diagnose his prostate cancer in a timely manner. Not only did he get compassion when he showed none, but the common law system of justice will probably award his family British Pounds Sterling. More money for more jihad.

"So you are saying you are against capital punishment as prescribed by Sharia then?"

I agree with capital punishment - when the person in question is proven guilty.

"Sure Mohammad, you're all about justice. I'm guessing if that had been a Jewish terrorist who had blown up a Mosque full of Muslims, you would have different ideas about what amounts to justice."

Not really. It all comes down to proof, evidence and a strong case.

I don't think we have the whole truth about the case. I don't believe this one guy was responsible, he seems innocent to me, maybe its because I watch too many documentaries and watch too many movies, but I think there is more to this case than meets the eye.

I am here now to annoy and laugh at those angry with him being released - if he was guilty then I believe he should have been 100% executed. But for this particular case I do not believe this one guy was responsible.

Get the guys

Full post didn't show up.

Should have said:

Get the guys - that did it and deal with them, I will have no complaints but would support it.

"Wait for the lawsuit. He was in a Scottish prison and they apparently/possibly failed to diagnose his prostate cancer in a timely manner. Not only did he get compassion when he showed none, but the common law system of justice will probably award his family British Pounds Sterling. More money for more jihad."

Lets say he was innocent. The lawsuit would be justified.

Mohammad: As a slightly off-white American who's lived among so-called "Rednecks", the term is one of abuse used by arrogant, inbred, upper-class people who have no respect for a guy who does a hard day's work under a hot sun. People who like and respect less-than-wealthy rural white Americans (they can be very friendly and hospitable people) just don't use the term "Redneck" except when quoting someone else.

Now, for people who are really despised and hated by their kin, nobody beats the Falastin Arabs. Why, they're not allowed citizenship in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Iraq, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, and other Arabic-speaking countries. Only fools like the Americans let them naturalize or even buy property.

This piece of human waste shouldn't have ever been released for any reason. He murdered hundreds of people for allah, lived many years as a hero in Libya for his atrocities before being turned over to the Scottish Authorities for trial, and I'm sure got vastly better treatment in that Scottish prison than ANY infidel ever receives in any Libyan hellhole prison.

And after he died in prison (preferably from one of the regular beatings), his carcass should've been tossed into a pig's feeding trough and consumed by the swine (on film!) just to send the right message to his many admirers back in Libya who want to grow up to be just like him.

Now that he's a national hero, expect other airliner's to explode in mid-air with Libyan fingerprints all over it.

Take note. Those that are cheering for him believe he is INNOCENT. I doubt you will find those cheering thinking ‘he got away’.

Since when has any muslim ever thought his fellow cultist was 'guilty' of a crime (against unbelievers)?

I'll tell you in one simple word: NEVER!

Peddle your nonsense somewhere else.

Yeah Mo, bloodlust from Yanks.

We bomb Jewish restaurants, trains in Spain, the WTC, saw heads off of people and post the video online, commit honor killings for "shaming" our families and....oh, wait a sec - it's not the Yanks doing that; it's some other (sub)culture....I'm sure I'll think of which one in a minute,,,,tick, tick...

The reactions show a marked difference between American and European concept justice.

Muhammad put the difference bluntly:

"Good to see justice.

And as usual, nothing but blood-lust from Americans."

Sad but true. Compassion and mercy has little or no place in the American juridical system. Death penalty and until a few years ago execution of mentally handicapped and children place the US among the more barbaric and revengeful nations on this planet.

More serious is it that the conviction a the Libyan Intelligence officer seems to be a scam. A scapegoat was needed a Lybia was pressured to deliver rwo candidates for conviction. One was aquitted the other convicted on fabricated evidence.

I think Iran was behind the Pan Am bombing as revenge for the US shooting down an Iranian passenger plane in the Gulf.

The initial investigation into the crash site by Dumfries and Galloway police involved military and civilian helicopter surveys, satellite imaging, and a fingertip search of the area by police and soldiers. More than 10,000 pieces of debris were retrieved, tagged and entered into a computer tracking system. The perpetrators had initially intended the plane to crash into the sea, destroying any traceable evidence, but the late departure time of the aircraft meant that its explosion over land left a veritable trail of evidence.

The fuselage of the aircraft was reconstructed by air accident investigators, revealing a 20-inch (510 mm) hole consistent with an explosion in the forward cargo hold. Examination of the baggage containers revealed that the container nearest the hole had blackening, pitting, and severe damage indicating a "high-energy event" had taken place inside it. A series of test explosions was carried out to confirm the precise location and quantity of explosive used.

Fragments of a Samsonite suitcase believed to have contained the bomb were recovered, together with parts and pieces of circuit board identified as part of a Toshiba Bombeat radio cassette player, similar to that used to conceal a Semtex bomb seized by West German police from the Palestinian militant group Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine - General Command two months earlier. Items of baby clothing, which were subsequently proven to have been made in Malta, were also thought to have come from the same suitcase.

The clothes were traced to a Maltese merchant, Tony Gauci, who became a key prosecution witness, testifying that he sold the clothes to a man of Libyan appearance, whom he later identified as Abdelbaset Ali Mohmed Al Megrahi. However, an official report providing information not available during the original trial stated that Gauci had seen a picture of al-Megrahi in a magazine which connected al-Megrahi to the bombing, a fact which could have distorted his judgment.

A circuit board fragment, allegedly found embedded in a piece of charred material, was identified as part of an electronic timer similar to that found on a Libyan intelligence agent who had been arrested 10 months previously, carrying materials for a Semtex bomb. The timer allegedly was traced through its Swiss manufacturer, Mebo, to the Libyan military, and Mebo employee Ulrich Lumpert identified the fragment at al-Megrahi's trial. Mebo's owner, Edwin Bollier, later revealed that in 1991 he had declined an offer from the FBI of $4 million to testify that the timer fragment was part of a Mebo MST-13 timer supplied to Libya.

On 18 July 2007, Ulrich Lumpert admitted he had lied at the trial. In a sworn affidavit before a Zurich notary, Lumpert stated that he had stolen a prototype MST-13 timer PC-board from Mebo and gave it without permission on 22 June 1989, to "an official person investigating the Lockerbie case".

Dr Hans Köchler, UN observer at the Lockerbie trial, who was sent a copy of Lumpert's affidavit, said: "The Scottish authorities are now obliged to investigate this situation. Not only has Mr Lumpert admitted to stealing a sample of the timer, but to the fact he gave it to an official and then lied in court".

In a documentary entitled "Lockerbie revisited" aired on April 27, 2009, the film's director and narrator, Gideon Levy interviewed officials involved with the case. Former FBI laboratory scientist Fred Whitehurst described the FBI laboratory itself as a "crime scene", where an unqualified colleague Thomas Thurman would routinely alter his scientific reports. The interviews also revealed that the timer fragment had never been tested for explosives residue due to "budgetary reasons".

Thurman, who led the forensic investigation and identified the fragments' Libyan connection, confirmed that it was the "only real piece of evidence against Libya" and when asked of the importance of the timer in the conviction of al-Megrahi, FBI Task Force Chief Richard Marquise stated, "It would be a very difficult case to prove ... I don't think we would ever (have) had an indictment".

Investigators also discovered that an unaccompanied bag had been routed onto PA 103, via the interline baggage system, from Luqa airport on Air Malta flight KM180 to Frankfurt, and then by feeder flight PA 103A to Heathrow. This unaccompanied bag was shown at the trial to have been the suitcase that contained the bomb.

In 2009 it was revealed that security guard Ray Manley had reported that Heathrow's Pan Am baggage area had been broken into 17 hours before flight 103 took off. Police lost the report and it was never investigated or brought up at trial.

I am afraid that the real perpetrators got off scott free (so to speak) because of deals made in secret by former US administrations. The low key reaction by Obama and Foggy Bottom supports this theory.

"with Scottish Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill citing compassionate grounds for the release and saying al Megrahi was 'going home to die.'"

Many commentators -- Scottish and otherwise -- have denounced this travesty. See Fraser Nelson in "The Spectator" here:

http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/5277628/a-bleak-day-for-scotland.thtml

and the former editor of The Scotsman Magnus Linklater in The Times of London here:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/magnus_linklater/article6799649.ece

Scottish Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill cited "compassionate grounds" for the release. Of course he did. Of course he was being "compassionate." He was thinking of those British oil companies who were been convinced by Khaddafy himself, a great holder-outer of favors that he seldom grants, or things that he would have granted anyway -- that if the Libyan mass murderer were to be released, and allowed to return to a hero's welcome, then those oil companies might be allowed the great privilege of searching for oil in Libya.

Scottish Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill has shown courage and compassion. How easy it would have been, after all, to simply keep the mass murderer locked up. Can you imagine what great courage Scottish Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill had to summon up in order to defy public opinion, not least the opinion of all the relatives and friends of those passengers blown out of the sky, along with their plane, which plummeted to earth where Scottish men, women, and children on the ground were then killed. What guts that took, what bravery.

And it was not only great courage that Scottish Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill showed today. He was a profile in courage, but he was, head on, full-montyesquely, a study in compassion. He was all compassion. He has felt, and demonstrated, his compassion for British oil companies, and their operations. That is the kind of compassion that makes all of us -- we wha hae wi' Wallace bled (would not Wallace himself have done the very same thing, and freed Abdelbeset Ali Mohmed al Megrah"on compassionate grounds -- just as Scottish Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill, courageous and compassionate, did today.

C'mon, Ipso Facto! Don't play the "no compassion" card with me. Every progressive in Europe thinks that Che Guevara was the most commplete human being of the 20th century, yet he knocked a hole in a concrete wall so he could view executions (several thousand in the first 2 yrs. of Castro's regime). He also loved to administer the coup de grace and watch the pet dog of his associate, an American Communist named Herman Marks, lick up the blood and brains. He was also very vengeful with anyone who bucked his "revolutionary discipline" on his ill-fated guerrilla jaunts in Congo and Bolivia during the 1960's.

Further, European progressives all at least "understand" Mao Zedong (now that China itself has tacitly admitted that his "reforms" probably set China back), who drenched China in both political blood and the casualties of mman-made famine.

But, Ernesto Guevara de Serna y Lynch and Mao Zedong at least swore fealty to "The Proletariat" and were somehow "Progressive".

No, Socialist Europe is now so compassionate that the father of a raped and murdered daughter must, through his taxes, support the rapist and murderer for a few years (he won't serve out a life sentence). The only capital crime on that side of the pond is being inconvenient to your mother, and you don't even get a trial before she aborts you. Why, I suspect you all secretly cheered for Saloth Sar for his efficient massacre of roughly 1/4 of a useless peasant people, and think that if he'd been allowed to go on he would have made an ecological paradise of his country.

Rednecks do Rule! ...whereas Monecks and their terminal-prophet-cancer rule the death cult.

Who says his prostate cancer is terminal? Should it be believed? There is one lesson for America: don't trust even your closest allies to prosecute and incarcerate criminals. If you want it done right, do it yourself.
Didn't people in Scotland die when this plane came down? Are their families happy with this release?

No intellectual here, just disgust for this decision.

I've learned much from JW

No "Golden Rule" in Islam

Poor dad of a 20 yr old dead son from flight 103 this AM

from Fox news interviewed from Megan Kelly...

most cogent remark..."the bomber always smirked"

when occasionally viewed on 24/7/365 coverage

..guess it's a HOME RUN from Dar al-Harb

tx to Robert, Hugh, Marisol for your great work

I have read many news accounts of this barbarian's "compassionate & humane" early release. But the REAL truth is hidden behind the statement of MacAskill regarding the dung-heap's having to face a "higher power". That power is CA$H!

Prisons & jails often turn a terminally ill inmate out in the cold, cruel world just prior to the end of care treatment of said fatal illness costing the facility BIG bucks!

This is the only reason Scotland has for this diaper-head's release. They wouldn't dare tell the truth. I'd like to see this reason in print somewhere. Too bad this murderer got his 5 minutes of fame. The victim's families got a slap in the face. When this chuckle-head was found guilty, he should have been flown up to 31,000' then pushed out A-La James Bond!

Mohammad (arguably the ugliest name in the lexicon of names): You're an asshole. The entire world would have been far darker over the past hundred years of mankind had America not existed. Of course, you're clueless about this.

Scots: You're a great people but today you should hang your head in shame because ignorant Scottish authorities gave a break to a mass murderer.

Muslims of the world: Your religion is pathetic and deeply false (unless God's an Orwellian tyrant). Here you have another false victory. Shame on you all. No one who is a Muslim should take pride in being so. The fact that so many do is revealing beyond words. God, what a burden to the entire world Islam is.

Wellington,

Well said. I completely agree with your aforementioned three points.

We live in a topsy turvy world and it seems to be getting worse.

Western Civilization has now become a parody of the movie, Idiocracy.

http://pryce-jones.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NjljYzJhZGY3YWUwZTA5ZDRkMmEzZTMzYjA0OTYyODk=

People can't be surprised by this? It a scene that's been replayed again and again since the 1960s.The Muslims who murdered Jews at the Olympics received a similar welcome.These are people who follow a religion founded by a pedophile and thief is it any wonder they behave like savages?This is why I don't waste time or sympathy on Muslims.It's also why I could care less when China eliminates a few hundred of them.

Hugh,

Thanks for the NRO link, sadly not at all surprising. Our pathetic excuse for a President said he told Libya he expected this man to be placed under "house arrest". I expect Libya to listen to that nitwit about as much as the Scots. The good news is a new poll shows President Obama at 45% approval, worst Aug approval rating for a POTUS since WW2. The bad news is the poll is by the discredit Arab pollster Zogby.

"Bert Ammerman, whose brother died in the bombing, called al Megrahi's release 'ludicrous'".

Bert was being KIND!

Wellington:

"Mohammad (arguably the ugliest name in the lexicon of names): You're an asshole. The entire world would have been far darker over the past hundred years of mankind had America not existed. Of course, you're clueless about this.

Scots: You're a great people but today you should hang your head in shame because ignorant Scottish authorities gave a break to a mass murderer.

Muslims of the world: Your religion is pathetic and deeply false (unless God's an Orwellian tyrant). Here you have another false victory. Shame on you all. No one who is a Muslim should take pride in being so. The fact that so many do is revealing beyond words. God, what a burden to the entire world Islam is."

Not a good day, huh?

LOL!!!

No one cares what you think. Get over yourself.

From a News Report:

Abdel Baset al-Megrahi was released Thursday after serving eight years of a minimum 27-year sentence in Scottish prison. Scottish officials said the former Libyan intelligence officer has advanced prostate cancer and was given only months to live. They said they were bound by Scottish values to release him.

"He got on the plane looking fairly ill, and he got off the plane looking like he could do a dance," said Joanne Hartunian of Delmar, N.Y., who lost her daughter Lynne, a student at the State University of New York at Oswego. "It just made me physically ill."

"It brought it all back to Day One," Hartunian said. "I thought we had gotten past that horrible, horrible pain that we felt, but I felt the same pain today."

MohamMAD states:

"Good to see justice.

And as usual, nothing but blood-lust from Americans.

Its strange how other families (British families) of the victims agree with him being released however it is the Yanks and Rednecks foaming at the mouths.

"I wish that inbred son of a whore could have been tried here in Texas."

Fair trials are best.

Can't trust you rednecks with anything."

More to the point, are YOU having a good day? Judging by your above post, apparently not. And I care what Wellington thinks, and he certainly has both you and Islam pegged right. You are an asshole, and Islam is pathetic and egregiously false.

"Not a good day, huh?LOL!!!No one cares what you think. Get over yourself."

Actually Mohammed, I do not see that many think much of your opinions. They seem to come from a young adolescent in mind, if not in body.

"Not a good day, huh?LOL!!!No one cares what you think. Get over yourself."

Actually Mohammed, I do not see that many think much of your opinions. They seem to come from a young adolescent in mind, if not in body.

Obama allowed this plane to land safely.

After this maniac killed scores of his fellow Americans.

The CIC [Chickenshit-In-Chief] fails us again.

Mohammad wrote:

And as usual, nothing but blood-lust from Americans.
.................

You are so right, Mohammad! Imagine, causing the brutal deaths of 259 airline passengers--and a further 11 people on the ground in a small Scottish village. 270 innocent people--blood-lust indeed!

Oh--wait--that wasn't American "rednecks"--that was Libyan Jihadists, including the vicious Abdelbeset Ali Mohmed al Megrahi--now being cheered for his savage crimes by many of his co-religionists.

Wait--who's got a problem with blood-lust again? This is so confusing! sarc/off

Muslims are the only people on earth who celebrate, emulate, and worship genocidal butchers and mass murderers. Some say this man wasn't guilty; a jury said he was.
Even if he was wrongly convicted of this particular heinous atrocity, perhaps justice was served for the many others he committed with impunity.

I find it amusing that mohammad would accuse Americans of "blood lust". He obviously knows nothing about Americans except what he sees on the BBC, that (formerly) unbiased and stellar news organization known for its accuracy and neutrality. The pejorative term "redneck" is what arrogant northerners call southern rubes and unless you are an American, it's best to avoid the term because you obviously don't have a clue what it means. The fact is, "rednecks" are universal; they're found in every country on earth by different names. As for "blood lust", muslims have a tenacious monopoly on that.

Actually, Mohammad, Wellington is a well-respected poster here--many readers here are interested in his comments.

You, on the other hand, are someone from whom we've come to expect a repellent mix of dissembling, whining, and sneering.

This is off-topic but are there any Brits that would like to comment on this young lady's article?
The BNP will lose the argument
It's not hard to intellectually undermine the far-right party – don't just dismiss its racist arguments, break them down

Lucy James guardian.co.uk, Thursday 20 August 2009 10.30 BST

Nice few pieces of MPACUK-style dissembling from troll Mo on this piece. Because that's where you're from, isn't it, Mo?

Mo's pals are even claiming the Somali pirates are freedom fighters and eco warriors today!

Generous donations and jewish doctors are probably in this guy's immediate future. This could be a miraculous recovery even golf.

I'm one of those "red-necks" as above. Blood lust? You bet you, son.

I like to sing while I work. Here's to some old mates I would expect to sing along with me:

Hello Madhi, Hello Kepha;

Here we are at: Mohammad Efyah.

Creeping Sharia, Muslim liah;

How I wish I could: take a blood bath.

Well, maybe my career in show-biz is limited. That's OK, there's lots of entertainment to be found in dancing with Mohammeds around the world. They called the tune. I'm up for it.

www.veteranoutrage.com

This is why you have to kill these animals.
They will glorify him and others will believe
they can kill hundreds and then be treated
to an easy life in prision
followed by a release on humanitarian grounds.

this is why if i ever see these islamic nazis i will defend myself and i dont intent to capture them..

I will send them to hell all covered in pork..

www.veteranoutrage.com

www.veteranoutrage.com

This is why you have to kill these animals.
They will glorify him and others will believe
they can kill hundreds and then be treated
to an easy life in prision
followed by a release on humanitarian grounds.

this is why if i ever see these islamic nazis i will defend myself and i dont intent to capture them..

I will send them to hell all covered in pork..

www.veteranoutrage.com

www.veteranoutrage.com

This is why you have to kill these animals.
They will glorify him and others will believe
they can kill hundreds and then be treated
to an easy life in prision
followed by a release on humanitarian grounds.

this is why if i ever see these islamic nazis i will defend myself and i dont intent to capture them..

I will send them to hell all covered in pork..

www.veteranoutrage.com

sorry for some reason comments are so slow
they seem to be hanging..

or i have a really crappy laptop..

If you read the comments on the London Daily Mail story, you will see the opinion of many in the UK. They seem to think that the release was justified, because it was a great way to 'Poke a finger in the eye' of the US. Very unproductive attitude there.

My Momma would have called it 'Cutting off your nose to spite your face'.

Here's the link:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1207816/Obamas-desperate-appeal-Lockerbie-bomber-die-Scottish-prison-killers-fate-decided.html

mohammed, you really are an arsehole. If you want to comment about obesity in the West, stop. There are many fat Arabs who are gross, fat and lazy and very,very ignorant, and that goes for the majority. Your school playground comments are laughable and as for cruelty, muslims take the biscuit as can be seen all over the internet. The truth is now out about your idelogy, not religion, and the whole world is learning fast. So do'nt be so cocky, oops unislamic? and learn what you believe in for yourself and not what has obviously been part of your brainwashed upbringing.

I heard a "OIL for Terrorist deal" was made here.
Any truth to this?

This just proves that "the law" is meaningless like George carlin said in his last HBO comedy special. Jihad is fine and the west are now jesus-like compassionate people who have come to embrace the motto "turn the other cheek" while following dhimmitude with the upmost passionate devotion. Inshallah!!!

Obama said NO HERO'S WELCOME. So what do they do? They give him a HERO'S welcome, because Obama is a complete joke no muslim takes seriously. Infact, they partied like it was new years eve. There was even Confetti and everything.

Muslims idolize terrorists....the more people you kill, the more you are idolized..and if you end up getting killed, don't fret...another Muslims will take up your station in life...(or death)

I have read a number of Mohammed's posts and from what I have read, he needs a correcting.

The recent freeing by Scotland of the bomber of Lockerbie, will be considered in time to be a HUGH MISTAKE that Scotland will come to regret. It is a SAD SIGN that Scotland and the rest of the UK has become a dhimmi nation.

"No one likes Rednecks. Even their ‘fellow’ Americans hate them. Obesity, stupidity, greed, guns, violence, religious fanaticism, racism etc. etc. etc."

Another correction is in order. The term "redneck" is a title of honor in America. The truth is that and a few recent polls back this up, America is a center-right nation or a moderate-conservative nation. Proof in the pudding is that the number 1 music played on those radio stations that play music in America is COUNTRY MUSIC. If "rednecks" are so bad, tell that to those who have college degrees. These BELOVED AMERICANS would be very offended Mohammed.

Kepla,

“C'mon, Ipso Facto! Don't play the "no compassion" card with me. Every progressive in Europe thinks that Che Guevara was the most commplete human being of the 20th century, ...”

I am not playing cards but engaged in a discussion about the different concept of justice in Western Europe and the US.

I never had any illusions about fascism in all its forms: red, brown or green. That includes Fidel Castro and the sadistic pig and mass murderer Che Guevara. That´s a no brainer.

“The only capital crime on that side of the pond is being inconvenient to your mother, and you don't even get a trial before she aborts you.”

I am against free abortion for (almost) the same reason I am against the death penalty: It takes a very good justification to deliberately terminate a human life not posing any danger.

No such justification can be found for executing the incarserated criminal, bacuse revenge is not a valid justification.

Killing a fetus may be justified if the pregnancy is the result of rape or pose a threat to mothers life or in case of objective medical or social indications. In such cases suspension of the right to life guaranteed by the democratic state must be subject to specific objective and valid reasons and not just subjective reasons or no reason at all – as is the case with free abortion.

In Denmark the death penalty was de facto abolished from one day to the next in 1892 because of a newspaper article minutely describing the beastly beheading by axe of a murderer.

The oppinion changed overnight and the King changed all death sentences to life in prison until the death penalty was officially abolished in 1930.

After the Nazi occupation of Denmark 1940-45 the publics demand for revenge became so strong that the death penalty was reinstated reactively in 1945 for crimes committed during the occupacion for Danes colluding with the Nazis or killing their countrymen.

During this frenzy lasting to 1951 46 Danes were executed by shooting. 30 convicted men and 2 women was pardoned by the minister of Justice who changed the sentence to life in prison.

Most Danes today are ashamed that the country degraded itself to use almost the same barbaric methods as the Nazi enemy. Maybe the temporary reinstatement of death penalty was a lesser evil than bloodthirsty vigilantes taking the law into their own hands.

The American history and traditions are different and more violent and a majority of the Americans still demand biblical revenge – an eye for an eye – placing the US as number 4 on the list of countries executing most people behind China, Iran and Saudi-Arabia. Nice company I must say!

"After the Nazi occupation of Denmark 1940-45 the publics [sic] demand for revenge became so strong that the death penalty was reinstated reactively [sic] in 1945 for crimes committed during the occupacion [sic]for Danes colluding with the Nazis or killing their countrymen.

During this frenzy lasting to 1951 46 Danes were executed by shooting. 30 convicted men and 2 women was pardoned by the minister of Justice who changed the sentence to life in prison.

Most Danes today are ashamed that the country degraded itself to use almost the same barbaric methods as the Nazi enemy."
-- from a poster above

There was no "frenzy" in Denmark but a determined effort, in trials with the full panoply of rights, to try those accused of "colluding with the Nazis or killing their countrymen." What's wrong with that? Nothing. And the very fact that the whole effort took a full six years shows that there was no "frenzy." What should they have done? Not punish such people? In what conceivable sense could what the Danes did, in attempting to punish killers and traitors -- nowhere in Europe, by the way, was there enough punishment meted out to the Nazis or to their collaborators, least of all in Germany - be said to mimic "almost the same barbaric methods as the Nazi enemy." Gas chambers? Mass shootings? Injections of gasoline into the hearts of women? Auschwitz? Belzec? Treblinkia? Ravensbrueck? Buchenwald? In what way is the execution, after trial, of 46 people, comparable to the mass murder, the medical experitments, the torture, of millions. Moral idiocy is not to be tolerated.

Life in prison should mean life in prison...if it does not, it has no meaning...

"Moral idiocy is not to be tolerated."

Thank you! I'm really getting tired of hearing the kind of nonsense that passes for discussion:
"Sarah Palin and Ahmadinejad are really basically the same person," or "the Taliban are using child soldiers? Well the ROTC recruits seventeen year olds. What's the difference?" Or maybe the most disgusting of all, "I'm opposed to all genocide, whether it was the genocide carried out by the Nazis or the genocide carried out by the Israelis against the Palestinians."

This kind of thing seems to have become more widespread recently, even creeping into the 'mainstream.' Those spewing this garbage seem to think of this type of (il)logic as "open minded," or "enlightened." It is neither. Lazy, idiotic, and despicable is what it is.

Oh my, not only was Al Megrahi just another chronic misunderstander of Islam, but apparently the throng of supporters for his "hero's" return has exposed another group of collective misunderstanders of the very same. I mean, if we were to believe that Al Megrahi's trial and conviction was fair and just, then for sure true Muslims would have denounced him outright, calling for his death under Islamic law, right?

The sad fact remains, that it is the same old tired record being played, the grooves all but gone now. Another Muslim commits an act of terror in the name of Islam. Craven liberals, paralyzed by PC and fear of retribution by the denizens of the "religion of peace" act in proper dhimmitude, and with complete abstinence from logic. It is a helluva tune.

For good measure, to add some depth to the melody, we have the usual sounding-off of the "Abdullah's" who accuse the messengers, while never actually getting around to curtail the misunderstanding which would render the messendger obsolete.

Also, in the rhythm section, adolescent liberal, faux Muslim poseurs like "Mohammad", who by his own admission offers no value to the discussion and states "I am here now to annoy and laugh at those angry with him being released..." proceeding to then doubt the guilt of the convicted.

And finally, "Ipso Facto" who it seems has managed to find some time in between "9/11 was an inside job" and "fire doesn't melt steel" conspiracy theories, to actually provide sure-fire "proof" of the convicted man's innocence.

Again, assuming the guilt of the man as was determined in a court of law, his release and the response in Libya upon his return is abhorrent, far more so abhorrent than the unjust, "bloodthirsty", "frenzied" reprisal of the Danes against the Nazis subsequent to WWII.

One helluva tune, indeed!

Over the past year, it has increasingly dawned on me that the commenter Ipso Facto is an eccentric crank cranking out ideas not merely bizarre and comical, but downright dangerous (to the extent, that is, that he might ever have any influence).

When B. Hussein comes up with his next brilliant idea, that of liberalizing even more America's insanely liberal immigration policy, remember those cheering crowds and consider how many of them will be allowed to migrate here.

Mo, you say: "I agree with capital punishment - when the person in question is proven guilty."

whether he was alone or not, he was convicted of murder, and correctly so. Plenty of proof. I cannot believe that you actually think this guy is innocent

If Scotland believes in compassionate release for terminally ill prisoners, then it should have been a release WITHIN Scotland and house arrest. Period. No return to a terrorist country to be hailed a hero by Islamic nutjobs.

Scotland's gesture is the very essence of Jesus' Doctrines of Peace and compassion..the very meaning of his famous phrase.."love you enemies". But how can we as humans follow that teaching? We Christians can forgive but i say forgiveness with justice.I don't think justice was served to the bereaved families of those(270 people) who perished on that fateful day.

Hugh,

“There was no "frenzy" in Denmark but a determined effort, in trials with the full panoply of rights, to try those accused of "colluding with the Nazis or killing their countrymen."

Nice to know, but did you live in Denmark at the time or do you have specific knowledge of Danish political history in this troubled time?

I use the term “frenzy” because a prominent and respected lawyer C. B. Henriques (a Jew by the way) described the temporary laws and the justice served as “a legal madhouse” (dansk: Et juridisk galehus).

“What's wrong with that? Nothing.”

Actually quite a lot. The principal discussion at the time was whether you could make reactive laws punishing actions not punishable at the time the action was committed. Or reinstitute the death penalty reactively. Hitler operated in this manner:

“Violations of Western norms included the use of analogy and retroactive penalties. Analogy was sanctioned in 1935, to replace “formal wrongdoing” with the idea that “every violation against the goals towards which the community is striving is wrong per se”. … The retroactive imposition of the death penalty for crimes Hitler deemed especially henious commenced with the Lex Lubbe, whose purpose was to hang, demeaningly the Dutch arsonist, although he was nobly beheaded. Similar interventions followed, in the case of extortionate child kidnapping, or those who used roadblocks to rob motorists on the new “Autobahnen”.

This breached one of the central principles of Western jurisprudence, namely no punishment without prior legal sanctions, and, as officials remarked at the time, admitted Germany to the exclusive club of the Soviet Union and China. Between 1933 and 1939 the number of capital offences rose from three to twenty-five and then to over forty. But the increase in capital offences was merely the most sensational aspect of a system which erased distinctions between degrees of culpability, lowered the age of criminal responsibily, judged people according to their race or “type”, and subordinated individual rights to the interests of the collective. ...” (Quoted from Michael Burleighs -The Third Reich – A New History, 2000, p.164-165).

Late in 1943 the Danish Resistance Counsil (Frihedsraadet) in a publication – When Denmark is Free Again - outlined how the nazi collobarators should be punished. The proposals were rather moderate and the death penalty was ruled out.

But in 1945 the attitude had changed because of the increased Nazi terror during the last two years of the occupation and on June 1st the Parliament passed the so called “Amendment to the Penal Code” ( Straffelovstillæg ) reintroducing the death penalty for serious crimes such as murder, bomb terror and turture committed after April 9th 1940.

“Moral idiocy is not to be tolerated. “

Neigher should the breaching of central principles of Western jurisprudence.

“nowhere in Europe, by the way, was there enough punishment meted out to the Nazis or to their collaborators, least of all in Germany.”

I am sure Stalin would agree with your assessment:

“ In late 1943, during the Tripartite Dinner Meeting at the Tehran Conference, the Soviet leader, Joseph Stalin, proposed executing 50,000-100,000 German staff officers. US President Franklin D. Roosevelt, aghast, sarcastically joked that perhaps 49,000 would do. Churchill denounced the idea of "the cold blooded execution of soldiers who fought for their country." However, he also stated that war criminals must pay for their crimes and that in accordance with the Moscow Document which he himself had written, they should be tried at the places where the crimes were committed. Churchill was vigorously opposed to executions "for political purposes."

So am I but never the less people in Denmark were punished with prison and Berufsverbot for nothing more than being a member of the Danish Nazi party (DNSAP). A completely legal party with two mandates in the Parliament untill August 29th 1943 when the Government stepped down in protest over German demands which brought to policy of cooperation to an end.

"Enemies" is one thing.
Mass murderers, or even murderers, are quite another.

Meanwhile, one politician has so little faith in the moral sense of those who, in Scotland and in England he would presume to lead (he's the former head of the Liberal Democrats), one Sir Menzies Campbell, explains the outcry not as a cri de coeur, as heartfelt as they come, but only as an attempt to placate those presumably blood-lusting boobs and rubes in America -- you know, those idiotic Americans we always have to deal with -- for there is no other way to interpret his nauseating (nauseabonde, for the French delegation) remark as reported here:

"Sir Menzies Campbell, a former leader of the Liberal Democrats, said: 'Labour is clearly facing two ways on this issue: wanting to enhance relations with Libya, but at the same time determined to criticise the SNP for an American audience.'"

The expressions of outrage at the release were, then, according the "Sir Menzies Campbell, "for an American audience."

How do creatures like this develop this kind of mentality? And what is to be done to change things, so that they become, if not extinct, at least less numerous and less prominent?

I don't think either the Nazis, nor their many collaborators, received anything like the punishment they should have. Nine people were hung at Nuremberg. That's it. The first act passed by the Parliament of West Germany was to ban capital punishment. How convenient.

As for those who seem to exhibit even now great solicitousness for the collaborators -- as in Denmark -- to them I don't think there is even a need to respond.

But I will ask this. What is the "central principle of Western jurisprudence" that was violated by the trials, convictions, and sentences of those Danes who were involved in killing other Danes, or in otherwise collaborating with the Nazis? What "central principle" is that, pray tell.

Wow,
It's amazing how people can actually over look the point. This man is a murderer of 270 people! He took 270 life's away from this earth!!!! He ruined over 270+ families!!! There are kids that will never see there parents ever again, there moms torn because there children were ripped from them for ever. You get the point these people will never be seen again by there loved ones.

Justice you say? This man deserves nothing less than what he did to those innocent people! He doesn't deserve compassion. He chose to to murder those people, he walked that path knowing the consequences. It is unthinkable to let this man walk!NO WAY in a million years!

alkidya, I'm working on a response in my spare time to the "In Defence of British Muslims" document by Lucy James. I'm trying to rebut the statements in the document by reference to the Koran, Hadiths and fatwas, but being relatively new to this, I'm struggling.

One in particular I'm looking for is something to back up many statements I've read that rejection of even the smallest part of Islam makes you apostate.

Hugh,

"But I will ask this. What is the "central principle of Western jurisprudence" that was violated by the trials, convictions, and sentences of those Danes who were involved in killing other Danes, or in otherwise collaborating with the Nazis? What "central principle" is that, pray tell."

You still don´t get it after I spelled it out twice?

Then let us take it once more and slowly:

"An ex post facto law (from the Latin for "after the fact") or retroactive law, is a law that retroactively changes the legal consequences of acts committed or the legal status of facts and relationships that existed prior to the enactment of the law. In reference to criminal law, it may criminalize actions that were legal when committed; or it may aggravate a crime by bringing it into a more severe category than it was in at the time it was committed; or it may change or increase the punishment prescribed for a crime, such as by adding new penalties or extending terms; or it may alter the rules of evidence in order to make conviction for a crime more likely than it would have been at the time of the action for which a defendant is prosecuted. Conversely, a form of ex post facto law commonly known as an amnesty law may decriminalize certain acts or alleviate possible punishments (for example by replacing the death sentence with life-long imprisonment) retroactively.

Generally speaking, ex post facto penal laws are seen as a violation of the rule of law as it applies in a free and democratic society. Most common law jurisdictions do not permit retroactive criminal legislation, though some have suggested that judge-made law is retroactive as a new precedent applies to events that occurred prior to the judicial decision.

In some nations that follow the Westminster system of government, such as the United Kingdom, ex post facto laws are technically possible as the doctrine of parliamentary supremacy allows parliament to pass any law it wishes. However, in a nation with an entrenched bill of rights or a written constitution, ex post facto legislation may be prohibited.

Article 11, paragraph 2 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights provides that no person be held guilty of any criminal law that did not exist at the time of offence nor suffer any penalty heavier than what existed at the time of offense. It does however permit application of either domestic or international law.

Article 15, paragraph 1 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights nearly mirrors the language used by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, replacing the term 'penal offense' with 'criminal offense'. It also adds that if a lighter penalty is provided for after commission of the offense, that lighter penalty shall apply. Paragraph 2 adds a provision that paragraph 1 does not prevent trying and punishing for an act that was criminal under according to the general principles of law recognized by the community of nations.

Specifically addressing the use of the death penalty, article 6, paragraph 2 provides in relevant part that a death sentence may only be imposed "...for the most serious crimes in accordance with the law in force at the time of the commission of the crime...."

In the United States, the federal government is prohibited from passing ex post facto laws by Article I, section 9 of the U.S. Constitution and the states are prohibited from the same by clause 1 of section 10. This is one of the very few restrictions that the United States Constitution made to both the power of the federal and state governments prior to amendment.

Over the years, when deciding ex post facto cases, the United States Supreme Court has referred repeatedly to its ruling in the Calder v. Bull case of 1798, in which Justice Chase established four categories of unconstitutional ex post facto laws. The case dealt with Article I, section 10, since it dealt with a Connecticut state law.

In the 1994 opinion United States v. Carlton, the U.S. Supreme Court unanimously held that retroactive tax laws did not violate the constitutional prohibition on ex post facto legislation, provided their retroactive application was "supported by a legitimate legislative purpose furthered by rational means".

Got the drift now?

From the Daily Mail story, cited above:

"Today his lawyer Saad Djebbar said that Britain would benefit from Megrahi's release.

'The SNP government has done the UK a great favour because Britain and Scotland will grow in the eyes of the Arab street,' he said."
..............

Yes--the "Arab street" will consider the West in general--and Scotland in particular--to be run by suicidal fools.

More special pleading, from the "hero's" mother:

"The convicted bomber had called his mother in Libya and told her he hoped to be with her by Ramadan.

Hajja Fatma, 95, told the Tripoli Post in Libya: 'I do not close the house's door at all. I am expecting him to enter at any moment.

'Eleven years I did not spend the holy month of Ramadan with him, I am waiting for that day when he comes back.'"
..............

How sweet! Our hero will be home for Ramadan--the most violent month of the Muslim year--with his aged mother! What could be more heart-warming?

Many have by now forgotten that many of the passengers on Pan Am flight 103 in 1988 were Americans going home to spend Christmas with their families. Too bad, Kufr.

What? Are you attempting with all that (entirely transparent) fog to make me or others think the Danish government must not punish traitors and collaborators, because of some business about ex post facto laws, as you appear to interpret, in a curious way, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and then to assume that somehow your interpretation should apply - ex post factoly and, given your interpretation, ex post factoidly as well -- to Danish justice after World War II?

What are you talking about?

Are you suggesting that neither the government of Denmark, nor any other European government, had a right to punish collaborators (and murderers of fellow citizens) unless there was already on the books some law saying that "murdering fellow citizens while working for the Nazis" is punishable by death, or that "collaborating with an invading army and its officers in the administration of their form of 'justice' is punishable under Danish law"?

There are, of course, laws against murder and laws against treason, with punishments spelled out, all over the Western world, and there certainly were such laws in force in Denmark well before World War II.

What you are attempting to maintain is absurd. On treason, why don't you start with some history of both Roman and English law beginning, say, with Ernst Kantorowicz's "The King's Two Bodies" and, for England, Allen Orr, "Treason and the State."

Tell me,of what conceivable relevance is this "ex post facto" business -- oh, and do all European countries treat that the way the American Constitution does? -- to laws against murder and laws against treason?

Meanwhile, in Wales:

http://www.newenglishreview.org/blog_display.cfm/blog_id/22555

I have to agree with Ipso facto on a couple of points.

Fragments of information surface in MSM from time to time that are never followed up and ones I remember are,

The flight was destroyed in revenge for the accidental shooting down of an Iranian Airliner by the USN.

The design of the device right down to the quantity of explosive required was done in Czechoslovakia. That is not to say the Czechs were directly involved only that they trained Arabs as part of the then Eastern Blocs policy of supporting middle east terrorism.

One British journalist let slip at the time that the "Libyans were blamed because the real culprits the Iranians were too big to mess with".

A lot of very highly placed people in the middle east were in on the destruction of that flight. While he may have been involved he was only the most expendable.

It seems we have a perfect storm between the bad fruit of the bad tree of Islam and Europe's "enlightened" moral and cultural relativism. The latter aids and abets the former; a cultural suicide. Once Europe rejected its JudeoChristian roots for relativism, it signed its own death warrant. It sees nothing worth fighting for and nothing worth dying for.
Ironically, it is capital punishment upon a once great Civilization. Islamic jihad will find it need push very little to crumble the last few walls of European Civ.

By the by, "an eye for an eye" was referring to the basis of TORT LAW not criminal punishment for premeditated murder. In all five books of the Pentateuch (the Torah) the punishment of death is prescribed for the premeditated murderer. Aquinas went so far as to state that at the very moment of DECISION to lay in wait and murder, the murderer CHOOSES his own punishment.

I have to agree with Ipso facto on a couple of points.

Posted by: Fred at August 21, 2009 11:39 AM

There is nothing to agree with him on. Nothing. The case was tried and he was convicted. There is no proof of his innocence that can or did overturn that conviction.

Hence the point missed. If the Scottish judiciary realized that they convicted an innocent man, then why not release him as wrongly convicted? The point here is that they made a gesture of releasing a guilty man out of compassion, one accused and convicted of killing hundreds, who has shown and contuinues to show no remorse.

His guilt or innocence is not what should be looked at here. Not by a long shot.

Al-Megrahi is a scapegoat who had absolutely nothing to do with the bombing.
The real mass-murderers:
Iran
Ahmed Jibril, the leader pf The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine
Mohammed Abu Talb, a Palestinian terrorist
Monzer al-Qassar, a Syrian terrorist and drug dealer
The US State Dept., the CIA and the DIA who served the above jihadists transporting dope in diplomatic poaches for them and betraying Israeli agents and the misfortunate Iranians who tried to spy on Iran for the US to them.
There is a vested interest in the US diplomatic, bureacratic and "intelligence" establishment - that's why they are hell-bent on the continued cover-up and putting the blame on al-Megrahi.
Some high-powered criminals in this country have been getting away with a mass murder of Americans
for 21 years now. Do not play into their hands by buying their lies.
Order "Trail of The Octopus" from Amazon.com. It tells it all.
Ruslan Tokhchukov, EnragedSince1999.

Hugh,

“I don't think either the Nazis, nor their many collaborators, received anything like the punishment they should have. Nine people were hung at Nuremberg. That's it.

No that´s not it! You are obviously almost completely blank about the subject.

At the Nurenberg trial 12 defendants was sentenced to death by hanging. Two were not hanged: Hermann Göring committed suicide the night before the execution and Martin Bormann was not present when convicted. The remaining 10 defendants was sentenced to death and hanged.

But that was only the the top Nazi leaders convicted and executed at one of the Nurenberg trials. Add to this number the 58 nazi leaders convicted and executed at other tribunals:
"Auschwitz Trial executions: 11; "Belsen Trial executions" 5; "Nazi leaders executed in Czechoslovakia": 4; "Dachau Trials executions": 4; "Nazi leaders executed in Norway": 3; “Nazi leaders executed in Poland”: 12; "Nazi leaders executed in the Soviet Union": 2; “Nuremberg Military Tribunals”: 13; "Nazi leaders executed in Yugoslavia": 6.

But there were many other lesser war criminals tried and in some cases executed by the Allies after the war. In total, 5,025 men and women were convicted of war crimes between 1945 and 1949 in the American, British and French zones, by Allied War Crimes Tribunals. Many of the staff from the concentration camps were arrested and tried for murder and acts of brutality against their prisoners. Over 500 of these were sentenced to death and the majority executed, at least 21 of these were female.

Link:
http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/nazigirls.html

If you dont know the facts how can you make an informed oppinion about whether the punishment was lenient or not?

When I seee celebrations like these all I can think of is "What a great target of opportunity". Too bad we don't treat them as such.

Order "Trail of The Octopus" from Amazon.com. It tells it all.
Ruslan Tokhchukov, EnragedSince1999.

Posted by: Enragedsince1999 at August 21, 2009 11:54 AM

The co-author, Lester Coleman, plead guilty to perjury in this case. Why would he do that?

http://www.nytimes.com/1997/09/12/nyregion/metro-news-briefs-new-york-informer-admits-lying-in-pan-am-crash-case.html

Hugh,

In addition to the numbers of Nazis executed after being convicted as I mentioned above we should not forget the 1,000,000 German POWs who died in Soviet labour camps.

German Army historian Rűdiger Overmans and British historian Richard Overy estimated that 374,000 out of 3.3 million German prisoners of war died in Soviet labor camps. The official Soviet number was higher, around 570,000 deaths (mortality rate is between 14% and 30%, depending on low and high estimates of deaths and total POW numbers)

An estimate by a special commission says that almost a million of German prisoners died in the Soviet camps between 1941 and 1952. Of the 91,000 German prisoners taken in Stalingrad, only 6,000 survived.

Germany paid a very high price for the Nazi experiment. Stalin was not joking when he proposed executing 50,000 - 100,000 staff officers. Actually he got one million German soldiers without due proces and free labor to the Gulags.

awake,

"Again, assuming the guilt of the man as was determined in a court of law, his release and the response in Libya upon his return is abhorrent, ...."

If you accept the man was found guilty in a court of law - as I do - why can you not accept that the minister - because of the power vested in him - has an equivalent legal right to pardon the a terminally ill convict for humanitarian reasons?

We may disagree with the judges - they could be wrong - and we may disagree whether he should be released or not, but we have to accept the decissions of both institutions because they are the only one we have to make such decissions.

To me it is a matter of principles not persons or politics. It is healthy to have a democratic debate because it could change our oppinions and influence the laws and procedures in the future.

With the direction the New Labour British Government has taken, pandered to Muslims for the past twelve years there is little wonder that al Megrahi is now a free man.
With our lax borders, murderers, rapists, plane hijackers (London, Stanstead) and terrorists have all been allowed in.
Thanks to Blair and now Brown, the United Kingdom has had to endure supine leadership that sees the war on terror as an opportunity to posture on the world stage, whilst at the same time treading on eggshells on the domestic front for fear of offending murderous extremists, and those within the Muslim community who prefer to remain silent.
It is a shame that the families of the 270 people who died on that fateful night have to endure terminal distress when at the same time this "teminally" ill butcher is now a free man.
It will be interesting to see how long he actually lives for.

Over the past year, it has increasingly dawned on me that the commenter Ipso Facto is an eccentric crank cranking out ideas not merely bizarre and comical, but downright dangerous (to the extent, that is, that he might ever have any influence).

Posted by: Hesperado

Spot on, Hesp :)

Poster above, handing a Mohammedtroll (who had insulted 'rednecks') his ass:

"Mohammad I love rednecks. My husband is one and I am a black neck..." (posted by 'tilly').

Tilly

I love you, sister. You've got fire in your belly.

When all of Black America, and all of Native America, and all of 'Anglo' America and all of Spanish America lines up together as one and boldly proclaims - We Don't Want Islam; we like our beer/ wine/tequila/ firewater, we like our music, we like our dogs, we like our trotters and pork ribs and bacon, we like our pictures, we like our Uncovered Women, we like our fun and our freedom! (and we loove our Jewish doctors and lawyers and scientists and musicians) - then it will be 'game-over!' for Muslims in the USA.

Many have wondered what a Scotsman wears under his kilt..the judge who freed Magrahi wears nothing at all...there is nothing to cover!

ipso fructose-

Your saccharine defense of the indefensible is risible nonsense.

If you do not punish the world's monsters, you encourage their spawn.

All the legal mumbo-jumbo in every lawbook every written does not stop the suicide of our species if you fail to grasp the simple truth: killers laugh at you when you are compassionate to them.

And then they kill your children as thanks.

That the EU has no death penalty may be their death warrant.

Since you like Latin:

Quaedam iura non scripta sed omnibus scriptis certiora sunt.

On all this business of "ex post facto" laws and such, I rather like the way that a certain American general handled the problem. When he and his men, among the first to penetrate into Germany when the tide had turned against the Nazis, came across a concentration camp and saw the full horror, he had his men round up the Nazis on the spot, line them up, and shot them. To paraphrase, he said "That seemed to be the only right thing to do."

Amen.

Hesperado & champ - brothers in arms coming to the rescue of poor Hugh with the usual ad hominem nonsense instead of arguments based on facts.

At least Hugh does not lover himself to ad hominem but he could need a helping hand with the detailed history of WWII and what the rule of law implies.

I learned a lot from Hugh in other areas, and are thankful, he should do the same because one of the main reasons for debating is to learn from each other.

I am a forgiving nature so let us just say that Hugh probably had a bad day.

Hesperado:

"On all this business of "ex post facto" laws and such, I rather like the way that a certain American general handled the problem. When he and his men, among the first to penetrate into Germany when the tide had turned against the Nazis, came across a concentration camp and saw the full horror, he had his men round up the Nazis on the spot, line them up, and shot them. To paraphrase, he said "That seemed to be the only right thing to do."

So you have nothing against war crimes and don´t give a shit about the rule of law.

To me it sounds like that general was a fascist tearing down the wall that seperates our values and justice from those of the barbarians.

If we become like the fascist enemy the enemy has won. It is as simple as that!

"If you accept the man was found guilty in a court of law - as I do - why can you not accept that the minister - because of the power vested in him - has an equivalent legal right to pardon the a terminally ill convict for humanitarian reasons?"

Posted by: Ipso Facto at August 21, 2009 2:23 PM

Because, "Ipso Loco", legal rights aside, there is a moral principle here. That you now acknowledge that fact in this western democracy you so laud, makes the official response, solely determined by a compassionate PC paralyzed bureaucrat, in light of the conviction, all that more detestable.

Pardon the anti-humanitarian Muslim murderer because of humanitarian principles? Where is the compassion emitted by the convicted after the act?

PC crazy talk by you, at best.

You, now acknowlege the guilt of the accused and subsequently, convicted, yet still justify this action by the Scottish bureaucrat?

You're a liberal loon, and one I will personally work towards never having to read your words again here at JW, at least under your current moniker.

Good luck.

"So you have nothing against war crimes and don´t give a shit about the rule of law."

Posted by: Ipso Facto at August 21, 2009 6:40 PM

No, apparently, your justification of the Scots to release this animal, convicted under the rule of law, tells us all here so much more...about yourself, specifically.

And...

Hugh had a bad day my white ass!

"I am afraid that the real perpetrators got off scott free (so to speak) because of deals made in secret by former US administrations."

Posted by: Ipso Facto at August 20, 2009 4:41 PM

"If you accept the man was found guilty in a court of law - as I do..."

Posted by: Ipso Facto at August 21, 2009 2:23 PM

Which is it Ipso, or are you still trying to figure a way out of the labryinth of your own making?

Ipso Facto states:

If we become like the fascist enemy the enemy has won. It is as simple as that!

In Europe's case, I have no doubt that fascism will re-occur.

There is no other way.

Simple as that.

"Hesperado & champ - brothers in arms coming to the rescue of poor Hugh with the usual ad hominem nonsense instead of arguments based on facts."

Hugh doesn't need rescuing -- I was merely agreeing with Hesp's overall assessment of your comments and character. You've been under my radar for quite some time, so I am pleased to read that other's have taken notice of you, too.

A few weeks ago I wrote and asked you a direct question that you never responded to -- asking if you hated Christians. Your lack of reply spoke volumes.

A few weeks ago I wrote and asked you a direct question that you never responded to -- asking if you hated Christians. Your lack of reply spoke volumes.

Posted by: champ at August 21, 2009 7:12 PM

Welcome to the public flogging, Champ.

Re: Ipso Facto's facts:

A few weeks ago, I said "I think" that the Americans forced the Japanese Emperor to go on the radio and say he is not divine. Ipso Facto countered that he was certain that never happened. I found the BBC link that proved it did, in fact, happened. I never heard from Ipso Facto again on his "certainty".

One wonders how many other of the "facts" about which he is "certain" prove to be, in fact, not facts.

Welcome to the public flogging, Champ.

Posted by: awake

Indeed, Awake :)

The Future according to Ipso Facto:

Muslims invade the West.

The West looks in its law books and finds it cannot defend itself by killing Muslims.

The West surrenders.

One wonders how many other of the "facts" about which he is "certain" prove to be, in fact, not facts.

Posted by: Hesperado

Ipso Facto? ...more like Improbable Factoids.

I haven't read all the posts as I got pissed and had to scroll down.
forgive me if I repeat someone else.

Ive had my fill of you ipso facto. You've repeatedly stated that America is guilty of the atomic terror bombing of Japan and other BS.
Your ego has no equal. Your BS level as well.
You can be sure of one thing about ipso.
He will not have your six. You cannot count on him to back you up. He agrees that Americas desire to see justice done, is blood lust. His logic is twisted and sick.
I lost my respect for you long ago. Your views are consistently anti-American, regardless of your feelings regarding islam.
This is the last thing I have to say to you. You may continue to mislead people at will as I will make no comment. You have revealed your true self to me, and I'm a dumbass. If I can figure you out surely others can and will. In the meantime have fun bashing America, the only nation on this planet that removes dictators and tyrants from power and hands that power to the people of those countries. Japan, conquered and freed to be our economic partners and competitors.
Such instances abound. You do not know America or Americans as well as your ego leads you to believe you do. (I type about 80 a minute so don't think I've spent a great deal of time on you and your unjustified criticisms of my country. You live in Spain? I wonder what Spain would look like today if not for American intervention in WWII...

To Mohammed the troll. Poor slave of islam. Soon the Truth will set you free. When Truth lights the lies that are islam, no thinking person would participate in the religion of blood and death. Someday you will be free of the ayatoilets that rule your life and the lives of all muslim slaves. this will be achieved by the simplest of means. Quoting the holy writings of islam. islam demeans and condemns itself with those words.
to be free you must begin the task by reading the koran in detail...the surahs and hadiths. Your prophet was a twisted man and the evidence is there for you to see in your own holy writings. Are you familiar with the name Father Botros? He has some videos for you on Youtube.
You should know all you can about islam before you support those that kill in the name of allah for this is what you do if yo do not protest same. Do you see this murderer as innocent? Is he your hero? I think so.
There is hope for you. I meet converts from islam almost daily and a joyous lot they are, free for the first time in their lives. Immigrants from all corners of the earth come to
Alaska and some find real freedom for the first time here...far from Somalia or some similar hellhole laid waste by islam.
This piece of crap spent around eleven and a half days in prison for each of the innocents he murdered that day.
I say it's too damned bad we can't drop him out of an airplane at 10,000 feet and let him get a taste. Too damned bad we can't bring him back to life and do it again...270 times before leaving him dead. Blood lust? If you call a sincere and intense desire to see justice done, then I'm just full of Bloodlust.

islam is a lie and
Truth is killing it.

Alaskan Infidel

Whoa...sorry for the rant but, as I said, I was pissed.
One more for Mo ham head. Yer pal Abdullah Mikhail claims to be a redneck...twit.

Red neck. Hard working men out drivin' mules to pull a plow or some other form of labor, bent over so only his neck was exposed to the sun. Hard working, God fearing and fiercely independent. Patriotic, generous, the first to help their neighbors. I'd take that name as a compliment.

Here is a copy of my letter to Scottish Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill.

Shame on you. Heaps of it.
Where was compassion on the day that this monster murdered 270 people? Where is your compassion for the still grieving Mothers and Fathers, Sisters, Brothers, Daughters and Sons of those slaughtered by this disgusting piece of human detritus?
You choose to slap all those that lost loved ones and friends directly in the face through your callous act.
Compassion indeed. You have none.
You take from those that lost loved ones, the one shred of justice that came of this and throw it in their faces. And for what? I know for what. Your denials of favors done for the sake of BP will not stand. Truth will come out as it always does.
I will participate in and help to organize a boycott that will hopefully punish your government severely, that you will not repeat such an act for monetary gain in the future.
Did you see the heroes welcome he received? Flowers, joy, love. Things the dead of Lockerbie will never know.
He will die at peace, among friends and loved ones with the sure knowledge that others like him in the future, will be treated in like fashion. That murdering hundreds in the name of any cause is acceptable and he will pass this knowledge along to his fellow mass murderers. Even after taking the lives of hundreds of innocents, a monster such as he can receive compassion...if there's enough money involved and enough corrupt, heartless politicians around to make the arrangements.
You are a traitor to humanity and have emboldened others to emulate the man whose name I will not mention. The Lockerbie Bomber. The Hero of Libya.
You make me sick to my stomach. My only comfort is that perhaps someday, you will realize the harm you have caused and will be tortured by that knowledge.

Kevin Nolen
Wasilla Alaska

Just found this.
Colonel Muammar Gaddafi’s son, Saif, claimed the release of the Lockerbie bomber, Abdelbaset Ali Mohmed al Megrahi, was linked to trade deals between Britain and Libya.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/barackobama/6070357/Lockerbie-bombers-release-linked-to-trade-deal-claims-Gaddafis-son.html

We shall see...

Hesperado:

"Re: Ipso Facto's facts:

A few weeks ago, I said "I think" that the Americans forced the Japanese Emperor to go on the radio and say he is not divine. Ipso Facto countered that he was certain that never happened. I found the BBC link that proved it did, in fact, happened. I never heard from Ipso Facto again on his "certainty".

One wonders how many other of the "facts" about which he is "certain" prove to be, in fact, not facts."

I am surprised that Hesperado base his case upon a notorious PC dhimmi media like BBC.

If you want to know the tuth you have to go to the primary source: The surrender speech by Emperor Hirohito, Accepting the Potsdam Declaration.

I reread the speech very carefully and found no indication or even a hint that the Emperor denounced his divinity. Actually he reafirmed it:

"Let the entire nation continue as one family from generation to generation, ever firm in its faith of the imperishableness of its divine land, and mindful of its heavy burden of responsibilities, and the long road before it. Unite your total strength to be devoted to the construction for the future. Cultivate the ways of rectitude, nobility of spirit, and work with resolution so that you may enhance the innate glory of the Imperial State and keep pace with the progress of the world." (Closing paragraph of the speech).

I could be wrong so please point out exactly where in the speech the Emperor renounces his divinity.

Link to the speech:

http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/hirohito.htm

Champ:

"A few weeks ago I wrote and asked you a direct question that you never responded to -- asking if you hated Christians. Your lack of reply spoke volumes."

I hope you can forgive me for not having seen your direct question.

I do not hate anybody, not even the Muslims. They are the primary victims of an inhuman ideology as the Christians also were until they became liberated by humanism in the post enlightentment era of secularism and democratic rule.

Aiken Bryce:

"Ipso Facto states:

If we become like the fascist enemy the enemy has won. It is as simple as that!"

In Europe's case, I have no doubt that fascism will re-occur.

There is no other way.

Simple as that."

Fascism is not necessarily formulated as a political ideology, rather a state of mind and a certain supremacist worldview.
In this sense it is not re-occouring - it has been there all the time.

Islam is probably the original archaic form of a fascist ideology given a religious justification and therefore guaranteed a longer life than more modern forms such as Marxism-Leninism, Nazism, Italian fascism, mccarthyism, Klu Klux Clan, etc. etc.

People with a fascist mindset are attracted to such radical movements like a fly to shit. There is not much we can do about it because they are motivated and driven by strong subjective emotions outside the realm of reason.

awake:

"If you accept the man was found guilty in a court of law - as I do - why can you not accept that the minister - because of the power vested in him - has an equivalent legal right to pardon a terminally ill convict for humanitarian reasons?"

“Posted by: Ipso Facto at August 21, 2009 2:23 PM

Because, "Ipso Loco", legal rights aside, there is a moral principle here. That you now acknowledge that fact in this western democracy you so laud, makes the official response, solely determined by a compassionate PC paralyzed bureaucrat, in light of the conviction, all that more detestable.”

I agree that there is a moral principle at play here, but moral principles is what the rule of law is build upon so legal rights cannot and should not be set aside.

I see nothing detestable in giving a convict the full protection of the law including the possibility to be pardoned and sent home to die. As long as everything is done within the requirements of the law. It happens all the time, even in America:

“Terminally ill prisoners who want to die at home rather than behind bars may be eligible for an early release under a state's "medical parole" or "compassionate release" law. But critics say the procedure is rarely used and that the process is bureaucratic and filled with red tape. 

"Often times prisoners die while their medical parole is being processed. People need to recognize that these (paroles) are extremely hard to get granted," said Jackie Walker, the AIDS information coordinator with the ACLU National Prison Project in Washington, D.C. “

Link:

http://www.stateline.org/live/ViewPage.action?siteNodeId=136〈uageId=1&contentId=13735

You question the true motives behind this particular prison release and that is your right. It is impossible to prove what the “true motives” are behind any decission. As long as the decission is legal and based upon facts I see no reason to get overly excited about it. Politics probably played a role in the decission but I don´t see it as PC dhimmitude submission to Islam but rather a clear statement about the values and compassion upon which our post-Christian civilization is build.

“Pardon the anti-humanitarian Muslim murderer because of humanitarian principles? Where is the compassion emitted by the convicted after the act?”

The convicted Libyan always claimed he was not guilty of the crime. He regrets the loss of lives and he can go no further than that unless he also pleas guilty.

It is possible some kind of deal was made. The Libyan accepted to give up his appeal case because he would be dead long before a new verdict. In return he was granted release on compassionate reasons because the major political players wanted to put a definitive lid on the case.

As I see it, it is a win win case for the West.

“Good luck.”

The same to you and thank you for sharing your views with me and the debate.

'Lets say he was innocent. The lawsuit would be justified.

Posted by: Mohammad '

Lets review some of the evidence ans say he was guilty:

1) the suitcase bomb contained clothing purchased in Malta

2) The bombs timers were MST-13 digital timers built by Switzerland by the firm MEBO, the firms represenative , a MR Bollier supplied 20 sample timers to Libya (more on this is a minute)

3)The bomb was placed on Air Malta Flight km180 fro Malta to Frankfurt, then transferred to PAN AM 103a going from Frankfurt to Heathrow.

4) Abdelbeset Ali Mohmed al Megrahi purchased the colthing found in the bomb suitcase.

5) Abdelbeset Ali Mohmed al Megrahi stayed at a hotel near the store selling the clothing.

6)In December 1988 Abdelbeset Ali Mohmed al Megrahi was travelling on a coded passport (a passport in a false name issued bythe Libyan passport authority)

7) on December 21, 1988 Abdelbeset Ali Mohmed al Megrahi wa at Luca Airport when the baggage for flight KM 180 was being checked in.

8)in 1985 Abdelbeset Ali Mohmed al Megrahi was a member of the Libyan Intelligence Service JSO,

9) Abdelbeset Ali Mohmed al Megrahi was the head of the airline security section of that organization.

10)Abdelbeset Ali Mohmed al Megrahi and various JSO and Libyan military members met with Mr Bollier, who sold them the MST 13 timers that were used on the bomb.

11) Thousands of pages of testimony placer Abdelbeset Ali Mohmed al Megrahi at the time of the bomb placement and place him in possession of othe bomb equipment, and place in a position to know the very intimate details of flight operations and access to secure areas at the time of the bomb placement

12) Testimony given also show Abdelbeset Ali Mohmed al Megrahi has official Libyan government complicity in organizing and carrying out the attack...

everyone should read there court transcripts and evidence files....you could learn a lot about Abdelbeset Ali Mohmed al Megrahi whom Mohammad thinks is innocent..

Pulsar:

"everyone should read there court transcripts and evidence files....you could learn a lot about Abdelbeset Ali Mohmed al Megrahi whom Mohammad thinks is innocent.."

I read it and I found reasonable doubt as stated earlier in this debate.

Ipso Facto attempts to refute my simplex claim about the Japanese Emperor by

1) implying that BBC news would like about a historical detail like that, which is preposterous -- particularly when that detail wasn't even the main point of the story they were reporting

2) claiming that the only evidence we can use on this matter is "The surrender speech by Emperor Hirohito, Accepting the Potsdam Declaration", which is silly, since leaders of nations are capable of making more than one speech (though on the other hand, I wouldn't trust Ipso Facto's reading comprehension of that speech).

Correction to my post:

"1) implying that BBC news would lie about a historical detail like that..."

Thanks, champ.

"Ipso Facto? ...more like Improbable Factoids."

I'm also thinking of that Bart Simpson twist, "Ipso Fatso"...

Hesperado:

“Ipso Facto attempts to refute my simplex claim about the Japanese Emperor by

1) implying that BBC news would like about a historical detail like that, which is preposterous -- particularly when that detail wasn't even the main point of the story they were reporting

2)claiming that the only evidence we can use on this matter is "The surrender speech by Emperor Hirohito, Accepting the Potsdam Declaration", which is silly, since leaders of nations are capable of making more than one speech (though on the other hand, I wouldn't trust Ipso Facto's reading comprehension of that speech).”

Let me first repeat your claim verbatim:

“A few weeks ago, I said "I think" that the Americans forced the Japanese Emperor to go on the radio and say he is not divine. Ipso Facto countered that he was certain that never happened. I found the BBC link that proved it did, in fact, happened. I never heard from Ipso Facto again on his "certainty".

Having now reexamined the matter more closely I am still convinced that Hesperados claim as formulated in the quote is false.

If Hesperado reread the BBC article carefully and got his facts straight he would realize where his mistake lies.

The Emperor never went on radio to say he was not divine. He was however forced to sign a rescript to that effect but that took place four and a half month after his broadcasted surrender speech – namely on January 1st, 1946.

The Emperor did however not go on radio at any time and say he was no longer divine as claimed by Hesperado.

Here are the facts:

“This Imperial Rescript was released on January 1, 1946. In it, Emperor Hirohito declares that he is not a living god and that the concept of the Emperor's divinity is not true. This would turn out to be the first step bringing about fundamental changes in the position of the Emperor. On that very day, MacArthur commented on this ImperialRescript praising the Emperor as a leader bringing democracy to the people of Japan. “

Read the full text of the Imperial Rescript here:

http://www.ndl.go.jp/constitution/e/shiryo/03/056shoshi.html

Case closed!

Here's the information I linked to Ipso Facto 5 weeks ago:

"In an historic radio broadcast on 1 January, 1946, the Emperor repudiated the quasi-divine status of Japan's rulers."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/5248912.stm

At that time that I provided this information, 5 weeks ago, Ipso Factor suddenly became mum. I wonder why? Now after I have resurrected it and pressed him on it, he's scrambling around desperately, trotting out the strange theory that a mainstream news source would brazenly lie about such a presently inconsequential historical fact. Pathetic.

Hesperado,

You are both devious and dishonest. The contxt of our discussion about 5 weeks ago was whether the Americans PRIOR to the Japanese surrender demanded that the Emperor "go on the radio and say he is not divine".

That clearly never happened so you are wrong!

The reason I did not comment your reference to the BBC article was that it was irrelevant to our discussion and outside its context:

"By early summer 1945, the Japanese fully realized that they were beaten. Why did they nonetheless fight on? As Anscombe wrote: "It was the insistence on unconditional surrender that was the root of all evil."

That mad formula was coined by Roosevelt at the Casablanca conference, and, with Churchill’s enthusiastic concurrence, it became the Allied shibboleth. After prolonging the war in Europe, it did its work in the Pacific.

At the Potsdam conference, in July 1945, Truman issued a proclamation to the Japanese, threatening them with the "utter devastation" of their homeland unless they surrendered unconditionally. Among the Allied terms, to which "there are no alternatives," was that there be "eliminated for all time the authority and influence of those who have deceived and misled the people of Japan into embarking on world conquest [sic]." "Stern justice," the proclamation warned, "would be meted out to all war criminals."

To the Japanese, this meant that the emperor – regarded by them to be divine, the direct descendent of the goddess of the sun – would certainly be dethroned and probably put on trial as a war criminal and hanged, perhaps in front of his palace.

It was not, in fact, the U.S. intention to dethrone or punish the emperor. But this implicit modification of unconditional surrender was never communicated to the Japanese. In the end, after Nagasaki, Washington acceded to the Japanese desire to keep the dynasty and even to retain Hirohito as emperor."

That was the context to which you replied with an irrelevant reference to the BBC article.

Because of the disconnection of IntenseDebate I have not been able to retrive your comments - only my own - so if you still disagree please submit the full text of your comments so the matter can be finaliyed.

"You are both devious and dishonest"

That remark is patently untrue. I have known Hesp for a number of years, and he has always been honest and straightforward in his comments to me and others on JW.

However, it seems that you are projecting your own dishonest and circuitous shortcomings onto someone not remotely interested in playing such evil games. Game over, as they say.

I accessed my IntenseDebate comment stream:

The comment I made which triggered Ipso Facto to disagree with me, was the following (I have bolded for emphasis):

From what I've heard, after Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the Japanese surrender, one of our conditions was that the Japanese Emperor, who was considered to be divine, go on national Japanese radio and announce that he is no longer a god.

Similarly, I look forward to the day that a new coalition of sane and rational Allies will someday demand from Muslim leadership (oh, let's expand your 100 influential Muslim clergy to the political and religious leaders who currently comprise the O.I.C.) that they announce by radio, TV, Internet, Jumbotron, Twitter, whatever -- that Mohammed is no longer a Prophet of God. We might, however, have to hold such an event at a place other than the Masjid al-Haram, since that area might have become a giant smoking ( and possibly radioactive) hole in the sand at that point.

http://www.intensedebate.com/people/Hesperado/48

I then accessed the IntenseDebate comment stream of Ipso Facto, and found his response (again I bold for emphasis):

The Japaneese emperor did not at any time announce "that he is no longer a god". And it was not demanded by the Allies that he did.

"Hirohito's imperial rescript accepting the Potsdam Declaration was recorded and broadcast by radio on August 15. It was a masterpiece of propaganda packed with terms like "preservation of the national polity," "subjects of the empire," and the "indestructibility of the divine land." The ideologues who drafted it deliberately obfuscated the Allies harsh terms of surrender because national pride was at stake. ..."

http://www.intensedebate.com/people/ipsofacto/38

To this comment of Ipso Facto's, I then responded:

Au contraire:

[and I then provided the quote from the BBC article, along with the link, which I re-presented here on this thread, above:]

"In an historic radio broadcast on 1 January, 1946, the Emperor repudiated the quasi-divine status of Japan's rulers."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/5248912.stm

(Incidentally, my initial claim's wording is even more strongly supported by the following quote of Hirohito's radio address quoted in the book Leadership in Asia: persuasive communication in the making of nations, 1850-1950, in which he repudiated the principle that the "relationship" between himself as emperor and the Japanese people should be based on "the fictional concept that the emperor is a living god...":

http://books.google.com/books?id=Z3BUEhOo8ycC&pg=PA53&lpg=PA53&dq=radio+broadcast+on+1+January,+1946,+japanese+Emperor&source=bl&ots=Cmp-NyukZz&sig=vBaonL4sxJIB2Z-zKaXQdC45b9E&hl=en&ei=aKaRSp_oF5-UjAfWrITcDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10#v=onepage&q=&f=false )

Notice that in Ipso Facto's last comment above (again I bold for emphasis), in which he accuses me of being "both devious and dishonest", he specifically and clearly claims that --

The contxt of our discussion about 5 weeks ago was whether the Americans PRIOR to the Japanese surrender demanded that the Emperor "go on the radio and say he is not divine". That clearly never happened so you are wrong!

We can see from the evidence I have marshalled above that, in fact, the context was my initial claim I wrote to Ipso Facto -- namely, that after Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the Japanese surrender, one of our conditions was that the Japanese Emperor, who was considered to be divine, go on national Japanese radio and announce that he is no longer a god.

This claim of mine was followed immediately by Ipso Facto forcefully maintaining that -- The Japaneese emperor did not at any time announce "that he is no longer a god". Notice that Ipso Facto wrote "did not at any time" -- he did not limit his denial of that fact to "PRIOR to the Japanese surrender": the phrase "not at any time" means exactly that -- not at any time = never, neither before the surrender nor after the surrender.

There are only two explanations for Ipso Facto's behavior here: Either he has extraordinary lapses in reading comprehension and elementary logic, or it is he who is being "devious and dishonest". Given his generally addled mentation rife with ideological pathologies, I would consider being generous enough not to rule out the first explanation.

P.S.: As to the second part of my claim, that we required the emperor to publicly repudiate his divinity, here is another study, Global justice: the politics of war crimes trials:

"Although MacArthur did not favor the emperor's abdication and allowed Hirohito to remain as emperor, the god-king was forced to renounce his divinity -- a signficant humiliation in the Japanese context."

http://books.google.com/books?id=Pdgg0EDp-Q4C&pg=PA44&lpg=PA44&dq=hirohito+macarthur+demands+divine&source=bl&ots=7JnRgZhiL3&sig=yj1tDJ51LpcynhoX4ztVwrnOUUM&hl=en&ei=HKqRSuKcEo-8jAe79pHnDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3#v=onepage&q=hirohito%20macarthur%20demands%20divine&f=false

If this shows up twice, it's the site's fault. I signed in, actually posted this, then was told I couldn't post till I signed in. So I did it again.

Here's the post:

How did Japan and WWII get involved in this issue?

Freeing a Muslim terrorist, even on compassionate grounds (which I doubt he had merited), will ALWAYS fire up the militancy. And, as we all could see, it very much DID. The very nature of the crime should have precluded any consideration of compassion toward him. He was convicted. He expressed no remorse. He claims he's innocent but if there was reason, he'd have gotten a whole new trial.

I'm offering here some results of my own DEEP research into Islam - that's why it's so long. SHARE this information with others. Check it out, too - it's all verifiable.

This dude here, Mohammad, wrote that it is a sign of American bloodlust that we are angered about his release.

Ahem? When did they shed his blood in Scotland? What Americans are calling for his blood? Bloodlust? Who is this guy to talk about bloodlust? What WAS it, then, that inspired the bombing of that plane, if not ISLAMIC bloodlust? Had even ONE of the people on it done something terrible to any Muslim?

Don't accuse US of something you and your people indulge in with actual joy and rapture. You said it to deflect attention from the fact that MUSLIMS do bloodthirsty things all the time. Bet you'd defend the Muslims lopping off voters' fingers (usually women, of course) for having voted in Afghanistan. Nice, godly stuff, right?

Every male Muslim MUST do violent jihad at least once in his life - and to hope he'll DIE in the process - or Allah will punish him on Judgment Day. This belief crosses sectarian lines, as do most of the Islamic "attributes" I speak of here.

Who's bloodthirsty, again?

Being a Muslim, of course, you think a Muslim can do no wrong, and infidels can do nothing else, right? That, too, is MANDATED in the faith.

We should trust Muslims, Mohammad? Ahem. The Quran requires every Muslim to cheat, lie to and confound any infidel. And you do just that. Nothing any Muslim says or agrees to with any infidel can EVER be trusted. He'll only keep his word if it's in his or Islam's self interest to do so. It's all in THEIR scriptures. So don't rail at anyone else about being untrustworthy.

Have we forgotten Arafat? His peace pacts were routinely broken before the ink dried. He was only being a good Muslim. Cheat and lie to the infidel. Always.

We in the West were raised to think Islam is "a great global religion of peace and tolerance."

Oh? Where's the peace? Where's the tolerance?

Yet Islam is indeed both peaceful and tolerant (at least most of the time), but our political correctness omitted one telling point: The peace and tolerance are only due to OTHER MUSLIMS. For us infidels, there ARE NO RULES.

I don't see our good buddy Mohammad filling us in on some of these little "attributes" of Islam.

It doesn't work, pal.

The Quran absolutely FORBIDS friendship at any level with any infidel. It isn't recommended; it's required. Any Muslim has permission to kill any infidel at will. He may associate with the infidel if there's benefit to be gained thereby, but Allah's main preference is just to kill them.

So if you have a Muslim friend, it's one of two things: The friend is either a Muslim, and NOT your friend, or the friend really IS a friend, and NOT a Muslim. It can never be both. The Quran is clear as glass on that point.

I've studied Islam, in depth, for years. You don't fool me, Mohammad. ALL the things I am saying about Islam were derived entirely from Islamic sources in my research. ALL.

And Obama is NO redneck - what an ignorant joke! He's more compassionate and egalitarian than any head of state on the planet. But he knows what Megrahi is made of. (Hint: It sticks to a blanket.) Welcoming home a convicted terrorist and mass murderer, treating him like a conquering hero, is something only Muslims can do. And they do it SO well...

If we think someone may have been wrongly convicted, we do NOT set him free; we give him a new trial. If still convicted, he remains guilty as charged, and is not released. If acquitted on the new trial, he goes free and can't be tried again for it. A conviction is VERY hard to obtain. Not many innocents get convicted, especially of something like this guy did. Mohammad is ignorant of just how HARD it is to get a felony conviction in the West.

I worked in the U.S. legal system. The prosecution has an enormous burden to prove their case. Many guilty people walk, for lack of enough HARD evidence. Unlike Shari'a, where executions follow a day or two after the "event," with maybe a few hours for a "trial" that is closed to the public.

Yeah, keep talking about justice, Mohammad.

You don't even KNOW what a redneck is, Mohammad. But we in the west are learning, atrocity by atrocity, about what a MUSLIM really is. You won't like it when a consensus of opinion is reached about you.

You really are an authority about justice, huh? How about lopping off body parts for stealing bread? How about condemning someone to death for changing religions? How about all the stonings, child brides, "honor killings", pedophilia, getting married and consummating it just before heading off to the place where young boys are served up for you to schtupp in the rear? How about beheadings? How about making women dress in baggies? Or treating women as chattels, as free labor and "wombs on the hoof"?

Yeah, Islam really knows what civilization and justice are.

BTW, the "argument" about whether Muslims force conversions is a non-issue. They've done it for 1400 years. The Quran said, "There shall be no compulsion in religion." Nice, huh? And it applied to all Muslims - UNTIL the day Muhammad forced his own first conversion. Now that often-quoted phrase in the Quran is null, overwritten. Since then, forcing conversions is entirely acceptable in Islam. They quote that phrase to us, relying on us being too lazy to check it out. Which we are. The phrase's only use now is to bolster propaganda that they DON'T force conversions. Even though they do it all over the world - a LOT of it. The phrase only applied a few months or years. It's still in the Quran, but has no impact any longer. ALL Muslims know this, so when they quote it to us, they are being deliberately misleading. Nice trick. And, because we ARE so intellectually lazy, because we don't do our homework, the trick works. Ignorance can be VERY costly.

Islam is a religion that comes to the free world, and uses our time-honored reverence for religious rights in order to deprive US of our OWN. And they've been getting away with it. Europe is in grave danger from the Muslims living there, and most people just look the other way. It will be their undoing one day. And not far in the future, either.

Has anyone failed yet to note that Islam is INHERENTLY bloodthirsty? By its OWN scriptures? Maybe more people should read them, so they'll know. I URGE them to do so. Get Quran and Hadith online - read them cover to cover. It's free. Then you'll know, from the horse's own mouth, what Islam is. Nothing is more fair than that. And keep in mind that the Arabic version is worse; the English versions are "sweetened up" to gain Western converts. Nice, huh? But what's online is bad enough, notwithstanding. Learn about the two sects, too, Sunni and Shi'ite - it's absorbing reading - and rather revealing about Islam, where violence is the default solution to problems.

The man was incarcerated, but in clean conditions that didn't make him suffer in any way. YOUR people wouldn't want to be that kind, unless they could gain political capital by refraining from subjecting an infidel to great torment in custody. "An infidel is worse than a murderer." - Quran.

So the people on the plane were all "worse than murderers", which makes it fine as paint to blow them up - you obviously agree. Which also means that YOU would do the same thing, given the chance. If you live in the West, you should be sent to an Islamic State, where you can be a happy camper amid the other bloodthirsty people you love. Get out of OUR countries.

It won't be long before most of us in the West wake up to the reality that Muslims come to live in our lands for the sole purpose of taking them over one day - waiting for the call to jihad - like the cute little party some Muslims in Scotland threw at Glasgow, after decades of living "peacefully" among us. A Muslim cannot help but hate every one of us (the Quran DEMANDS it of them), as well as every little aspect of our cultures, yet they come in droves. There can BE no other reason than a malevolent desire to take our countries away from us and put them under Islamic rule. Even refugees can find an Islamic State to flee to, not a freeworld nation.

Please note, people, that Islam has ONE prime directive: to take over the whole planet, and by ANY means whatsoever. No method, even genocide, is prohibited. Note their present behavior, taking over whole countries. Got it?

Islam doesn't need extremists; it is already extreme.

Get out! While you still can, because one day, you'll be evicted, like it or not.

Free people of the world are getting wholeheartedly SICK of Islam and Muslims, and their toxic "values." By its own scriptures, its "values" are anti-nature, anti-civilization and anti-life. It is very much a religion OF males, BY males and FOR males. It offers lots of carrots that inadequate males can't resist. It validates masculinity without requiring them to earn it. Conversion validates them automatically. So how many inadequate males ARE there who are vulnerable to this temptation? Hmm.

Islam doesn't even place much value on the lives of Muslims; they live to gain paradise, and nothing else merits their focus. They care more about piety than about feeding their families, or having a good job, having a healthy diet, a clean home in good repair, etc. Their god is EVERYTHING. Let the Muslims have it that way - but not in OUR countries.

Your welcome, Mohammad, is wearing mighty thin in the West.

So just LEAVE.

Islam is the worst threat humanity has ever faced.

I do not say this lightly. I say it, NOT out of the bigotry of "Islalophobia," but out out of YEARS of analysis and study. It is only a bigotry when it is formed out of ignorance, inadequacy, second-hand sources, propaganda, etc. A STUDIED OPINION is formed out of facts and evidence. In other words, it is NOT a bigotry at all.

You, the people of the free world, must do your OWN individual studies of Islam - and entirely from Islamic sources. There is no other way to avoid the ignorance that Muslims keep yanking us around with.

So DO YOUR OWN HOMEWORK on Islam! Don't let a prior opinion interfere - let Islamic sources be the ONLY basis for your opinion. Do NOT rely on a privately-written and published book, even if it is authoritative and well-researched. Get your info from the original source. It's the only truly fair way to study Islam.

Religions all depend heavily on public ignorance, but Islam does more, still. It preys on these people, acts as a "permission-giver" to indulge in the very worst human attributes of human males, in order to turn them into oppressors, haters and militants. That's Islam's one JOB.

Our lives, countries, cultures - even our faiths - are at supreme risk right now. We ignore the threat very much at our OWN PERIL.

Islam is literally the inside-out of democracy and our most precious democratic values. It violates every religious value that we hold, as well. The two cannot mix. They are revolted by our values and cultures, but come to our lands to force Islamic ones on us. We will either stop them, and send them all to Islamic states, where they can be happy, or they will succeed in dominating us utterly. We should not EVER sink to their level by using violence against them. If some don't want to move, they can be moved anyway, but never with violence, unless it is directly defending against their violence.

If you think Afghanistan is a democracy, think again. Just holding elections does NOT make it one, either. Look up their "Constitution" online. Google it. It says no law can be written which violates or offends Islam in any small way. Ask yourselves this, too: Do any genuine democracies have religious courts, where people can be condemned to DEATH merely for converting away from Islam? As for Iraq, it is merely waiting for the Western money to dry up (and probably the oil no longer being needed by the West) - and then it'll show its true colors. Iraq already IS a Shi'ite Islamic State. The genocide against Sunnis will commence when their reasons to "talk nice" with the West disappear. In fact, some has already begun. Even Obama has to speak (though it probably and understandably sticks in his craw) of these "democracies," because there's too much for America to lose until we are oil-independent of them. But you can be sure he knows precisely what Islam really is. He's a scholar. But he's also a solid realist. We can't avoid being "nice" until we don't need their oil any more.

Do NOT hate Muslims; many are just brainwashed, or know nothing else. Some people in the West were duped into it with "sweetened-up" versions of the Quran, and aren't really Muslims at all.

The real culprit here is Islam. ONLY Islam. It is what generates - and applauds, and promises great rewards to - the terrorists and violence.

They often accuse US of trying to go to war with Islam. There really IS a war. But Muslims declared it, 1400 years ago, and it's still going on. Even if WE don't declare war, there IS one anyway, simply because one side DID declare the war. It will not end till Islam dies out. All faiths do so in due time, but it's the harm that Islam can do until it does so that really counts here. It's them or us, and WE didn't make it that way; THEY did, 14 centuries ago.

Since then, they have learned of our ways, and learned how to use them against us. They are very good at doing that. Our only real hope, now, is for the public of the free world, each and every person, on his/her own, to study Islam thoroughly. Then we will reach the consensus that will be needed to deal effectively with this very dire threat.

Let's kick Islam OUT, while we still can, then lock the door to the Muslims. They detest the free world and everything about it. It is no abuse of them to send them all to Islamic States. It would be very hard, and often very sad for us to do it, but we really have no other choice.

I can profoundly wish this wasn't necessary, but the realities make no other alternative viable for us.

Hi, faster, great post! ...and I always copy my comments before hitting the "Post" button just in case it times out -- that way all I have to do is paste it instead of writing it all over again. Hope that helps, and welcome to JW :)

welcome faster...

No islam...Know Peace...Know islam...throw up.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,547160,00.html?test=latestnews
I knew it...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,546900,00.html
I just knew it...

And now despite the feigned outrage at the WH, we find that Obama knew what was going on the whole time. I'm not the least bit surprised.
I have no doubt that the muslim in Obama holds the Lockerbie bomber in high regard.

islam is a lie and
Truth is killing it.