Muslim imam misleads about Islamic apostasy in Florida convert custody case

The original comments thread for this article, made while still on IntenseDebate, was long and complex; I (dumbledoresarmy) kept a copy of nearly all of it.

I am reposting it here particularly for the benefit of anyone who may have heard about this case, and be investigating. It is instructive because of the presence of the Muslim apologist or spin-master, Islamophobia.

ISLAMOPHOBIA said - Spinster is at it again :) Spinning away with his famous half-truths. I wish this joker would debate me publicly about Islam and this Apostasy issue. Take me up on the challenge Spinster. Please!

Imam Hatim Hamidullah didn't actually say that Islam doesn't prescribe the death penalty for apostasy.

First, this issue is debated within the Muslim community, it's not set in stone that this is the case. For a certainty, there's not a single verse in the Qur'aan that states to kill anyone who leaves his faith. On the contrary, the Qur'aan in many places allows freedom of religion. Notice how Spinster goes to hadith (which can be easily fabricated, especially in the imperialistic mentality of those who had agendas AFTER and in some cases during the time of Prophet Muhammad.

Second, if there are scholars who Spinster will quote to substantiate his views, why isn't he being honest in posting opposing views of those whom he likes to reference? The reason he's posting the one-sided half truth is that he wants to convince the public that this is the majority of opinion. It's not. Simple logic would be sufficient to debunk Spinster's myths.

Third, if this was the case, then the majority Muslims throughout the world would be killing those who left Islaam. I have family members who have left Islam, yet they are alive and well. The argument is then said, well, it's because you live in the USA. That argument falls flat on its face because a Muslim is required to follow and practice his/her faith without national or international boundaries.

Fourth, Spinster does not obviously know of the historical nature of this hadith. I challenge him to show me the historical nature of THIS hadith he quoted in Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57.

Cherry picking again, are we?

-DUMBLEDORESARMY told ISLAMOPHOBIA - Liar.

At least one person who posts regularly at this blog, a person who is a former Muslim living in the USA, had to flee from his family and hide from them, after he apostasised from Islam during his teens.

-IISLAMOPHOBIA said to DDA - ad hominem. Learn to debate the points!

-DUMBLEDORESARMY told ISLAMOPHOBIA - Islam is as Islam does. All over the world, Muslims - card-carrying proudly-self-declared Muslims - are killing other people on the grounds that those people are apostates from Islam. See Somalia, for example.

I believe my eyes and ears. And since the Hadith tell Muslims, quite clearly, that those who leave Islam must be killed, and only people like you, lying for Islam, throw the Hadith under the bus, I see a congruence between that passage in the Hadith, and what Muslims in many places are doing, or trying to do, to those who leave Islam.

-VIRGIL said- So how did 1,400 years worth of Muslim scholars misunderstand their religion and come to the conclusion that Muhammad ordered the execution of those who leave the religion of Islam?

So who are we to believe on this issue, Muhammad and 1,400 years of Sunni and Shi'ite scholars or some disingenuous internet sniper?

-ISLAMOPHOBIA to VIRGIL - ad hominem. Learn to debate the points!

-VIRGIL told ISLAMOPHOBIA - Now for a real "ad hominem" retort: you are an idiot, and an incredibly dishonest one. It is evident that you don't have an honest bone in your body, but are only interested in dissembling and mudding the waters.

You claim that the Qur'an doesn't specifically command the execution of apostates, as if the Qur'an is the only source for judicial rulings in Islamic law.

Stupid liberals may be taken in by such half-truths, but here we know better.

The hadith clearly state that apostates are to be executed, and this has been the accepted position of both Sunni and Shi'ite scholars for 1,400 years.

The attempts to deny this ruling by certain modern Islamic figures has no historical basis, but is little more then a cynical attempt to white wash Islam for the infidels.

As for your casting aspersions onto the hadith related to apostasy, again you are being dishonest.

Whether Muhammad really said any of the things attributed to him is certainly a subject of academic debate, but the fact remains that the hadith on apostasy are and have been accepted as authentic by the Muslim ummah for 1,400 years. Trying to brush them under the carpet now shows dishonest desperation on your part.

And finally, coming back to the Qur'an and apostasy, there have been several classical Sunni scholars, including the famous Imam Shafi'i (one of the founders of the four dominate schools of Islamic jurisprudence), that believed that there were verses in the Qur'an that affirmed the execution of apostates: http://www.iheu.org/node/1541

-ISLAMOPHOBIA said - Ah, now that I've got your attention Spinster!

Your rightfully (one of your half truths) say You claim that the Qur'an doesn't specifically command the execution of apostates, as if the Qur'an is the only source for judicial rulings in Islamic law.

So does this mean now that Islamic law should refer to ahadeeth instead of the Qur'aan? You are being quite deceptive to your dummies (not dhimmis) again, with our half lies which you cunning mix with your half truths! Nice try though!

Now, since you're an 'expert' on Islam (I know, the joke of the century) where in Islamic law that you can show me that a hadith superceded the Qur'aan? Show me one islamic law that is passed and honored as an Islamic law that shows a hadith being ruled in favor above the Qur'aan. I've already pointed out that the Qur'aan shows many verses that contradicts this hadith! Of course, aside from your agenda driven disembogues, you cannot disprove what I'm saying all along. [NONSENSE]

I've yet to see you take on my challenge and I've dealt with more qualified (doesn't say much though in your case) hate mongers repeating this hadith. The mere fact you're using this hadith shows how uneducated you are in the field of Islamic studies.

I'm still calling you out on this: Fourth, Spinster does not obviously know of the historical nature of this hadith. I challenge him to show me the historical nature of THIS hadith he quoted in Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57.

And please don't spurt more nonsense as if to dismiss my challenge. That'll work with your audience, not me! Answer my question and stop avoiding and deflecting! [

-DUMBLEDORESARMY told ISLAMOPHOBIA - Be quiet. Virgil was not engaging in ad hominem, anyway.

He was merely stating historical fact, and stating what a very great many Muslims obviously believe to be the case - that Muhammad prescribed the execution of apostates. And when Virgil called you a disingenuous internet sniper, he was stating a fact.

-MIKEYMIKE said - (quoting Islamophobia) "First, this issue is debated within the Muslim community, it's not set in stone that this is the case."

So if there is debate there there is a side for and a side against.

Which means that there are some in the community who would be quite willing to kill their own family members because they leave Islam.

Your own argument condemns you.

-ISLAMOPHOBIA to MIKEYMIKE - Once again, learn to read. Take off your bigotted glasses for a moment, then read, yes, with an OPEN mind if you have one.

Read what I said, I'll BOLD it for you to help The reason he's posting the one-sided half truth is that he wants to convince the public that this is the majority of opinion. It's not. Simple logic would be sufficient to debunk Spinster's myths. [WRONG]

Did I say some Muslims DO NOT do this? Some Muslims do not do a lot of things. Some of them haven't even read the Qur'aan. Some don't pray or fast, etc. etc. Yet, they call themselves Muslims! What are the majority of Muslims to do? Do you want us to get them certification that they can claim "Hey, I'm really a practicing Muslim?" Such stupidity.

-VIRGIL replied - We are not talking about what the majority of Muslims do or do not do, we are talking about what the Islamic texts (Qur'an, hadith, classical scholars, etc) say. This is something you seem to want to ignore.

- ISLAMOPHOBIA said - What commentators or classical scholars, etc. etc. say is their opinion, not law! I've read many of their work and I disagree with some of their OPINIONS (get that, opinions?)

You, for the life of honesty and intellectual integrity, cannot seem to recognize (or deliberately rejecting it for your agenda driven income) facts from fiction, laws from opinions, etc.

The very fact that Muslims are not en masse killing apostates should tell the average intelligent person here that this is NOT an Islamic law.

It has and probably will continue as a JAHILI practice that is foreign to the teachings of Islam.

Study some history for God's sake. You're no better than the OBLs and his goons, same foolishness different source!

-DUMBLEDORESARMY said to ISLAMOPHOBIA - All you're doing is throwing sand.

-MIKEYMIKE told ISLAMOPHOBIA - I've counted 4 times the use of the phrase "ad hominem" and the first thing you say is "Once again, learn to read. Take off your bigotted glasses for a moment, then read, yes, with an OPEN mind if you have one."

Why not practice what you preach?

You do your argument a disservice by calling me a bigot simply because I disagree with you.

Actually, I don't recall seeing anywhere that this is a majority argument. I am quite willing to say that you are correct; I am not active in the Islamic community.

So let's say you are correct that there is a minority that thinks it is quite normal to kill your own family members because they leave Islam.

What is an acceptable figure to you? 30%? 10%?

My concern is that there is in fact a debate at all.

My concern is that this attitude exists at all.

My concern is for the girl in the middle of this very real danger.

And my final concern is that I cannot tell the difference between those who would and those who would not kill. Can you?

I'm trying to think of other groups that have this debate - Catholics? No. Athiests? No. Freemasons. No.

Organised criminals. Yes. Military dictatorships. Yes.

Congratulations. On this issue, Islam has more in common with criminals and despots than organised religions.

-GAYE told ISLAMOPHOBIA: Islamophobia, of course there is islamophobia in the world, there have been over 13680 terrorist attacks since sep 11th, and this is not counting pirates attacks. The action of Muslim terrorist attacks opperating in the world are well known. Islamists have bombed and destroyed buildings, planes, and chuches, and Muslim terrorists have targeted and killed tens of thousands of men, women and children every year over the past 20 years, but then killing is not new to Muslims all they are doing is following what mohammad did and said to do for the cause of allah if the people would not submit.
All over the world, what do these countries have in common,, UK, Spain, Tunisia, Iraq, Russia, Uzbekistan, Pakistan, Turkey, Morocco, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Kenya, Tanzania, Bali, Indonesia, Philippines, USR, Egypt, Britain, etc they have all been struck by terror attacks.

-ISLAMOPHOBIA told GAYE - Where are you getting this figure from? Source please.

I am not defending any stupid action(s) of Muslims. I personally argue against their stupidity and misinterpretations of the Qur'aan, etc.

What I'm arguing is against falsely accusing the teachings of Islam as found in the Qur'aan. I personally don't have the time to debate hadith collections, but in this particular case, I've challenged Spinster to give me the historical nature of this cherry picked hadith.

What terrorists do to represent Islam is the same as terrorists do to represent Christianity, Judaism, etc. however, named much different when it applies to the latter group.

-DUMBLEDORESARMY to ISLAMOPHOBIA - Oh, be quiet. Nobody here buys that ridiculous line about the 'tiny minority of extremists'.

I didn't just gain my wariness of Islam, from reading Spencer's books. I knew about the apostasy law LONG BEFORE I even knew Spencer existed.

You see, I read the personal testimony of former Muslims who had become Christians - and who were threatened with death by their own families as a result, and had to flee and go into hiding. And I pegged Islam as a dangerous cult after a slow, careful, reading of ALL of the Quran in a good translation...several years BEFORE September 11th. September 11th did not surprise me, precisely because I had read the Quran.

One of my other main sources of information about Islam is Canon Dr Patrick Sookhdeo - whose books are even more information-dense than those of Mr Spencer. He writes completely independently of Spencer. He writes as a former Muslim. He is obviously familiar with the full range of Islamic source texts, ancient and modern. And his conclusions, and his warnings, are identical with those reached, and made, by Spencer."

End of my copy of the first part of the original discussion of the posted article - dda.

Part two of my record of the original discussion of this article, as it happened on IntenseDebate.

GAYE said (to Muslim apologist, ISLAMOPHOBIA) –
Then there is :

Nigeria, Sudan, Egypt, Israel, Lebanon, Armenia, Macedonia, Yugoslavia, Kosovo, Bosnia, Chechnya, Russia, Kashmir, Pakistan, Indonesia and the Philippines and others.

What do they all have in common? In each country or province, there is an ongoing struggle involving Moslems and non-Moslems.

Not other religions with anyone, but Muslims with non Muslims????.hmmm.

And if peace is preached in the Quran to non Muslims, how does Al-Qaeda, Hamas, Hezbollah, Grope Islamique Arme', the international front, Jemaah Islamiyah and others Islamic groups get such a horrific hold . Is it because although there are verses of peace etc in the Quran, there are also hundreds of verses of hate, terror, torture, and slaughter until all have submitted to Allah.
All we have to do is to read what Mohammad did when they went raiding people, he also skited that he took the lands from the Jews.. read it for yourself,, he raided their villiages and killed the men taking some women for themselves and taking booty.. this is the example set by Mohammad, kill and plunder if the wont submit.
-ISLAMOPHOBIA said to GAYE - ad hominem.....

-DUMBLEDORESARMY told ISLAMOPHOBIA - Your claim of 'ad hominem' is a non sequitur.

-GAYE told ISLAMOPHOBIA - islamophobia, what does verses like these mean?

Bukhari:V5B59N516 “When Allah’s Apostle fought or raided people we raised our voices saying, ‘Allahu-Akbar! Allahu-Akbar! None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.’”__Ishaq:286 “Meanwhile the Apostle sent Sa’d on the raid of Abu Waqqas. The Prophet only stayed a few nights in Medina before raiding Ushayra and then Kurz.”____

So yes islamophobia, we non Muslims all have a phobia about being killed, but the beauty is that the people will only take it for so long, our problem is that it takes us a little longer to wake up, but watch out when we do... __

I knew of a girl who had left Islam and she couldnt tell her real name nor her address for fear that her family would find her and kill her.. ____

The Dictionary of Quranic Terms and Concepts - page 16, (written by M. Mir - a Muslim writer), defines the actual Quranic information as:____"APOSTASY. Arabic "irtidad". Traditional Islamic law prescribes the penalty of death for a Muslim who commits apostasy. The punishment is not stated in the Quran, but is said to be based on certain Hadith. __

-ISLAMOPHOBIA said to GAYE - ad hominem. read my arguments if you can.

-DUMBLEDORESARMY told ISLAMOPHOBIA - Deny, deny, deny till you're black in the face.

The lies and the denial just won't work any more, not here.

-EELS said to ISLAMOPHOBIA - (quoting) 'First, this issue is debated within the Muslim community'

Why? It would seem abundantly, obviously, crystal clear that putting someone to death for leaving or changing a religion is always wrong.

Who are the people arguing otherwise?

-ISLAMOPHOBIA said - Sometimes I wonder if you people have a brain. It's too bad Spinster have folks like you as his cheerleaders, else his cases would have made some headway...

I've answered this above...pasting below:

Read what I said, I'll BOLD it for you to help The reason he's posting the one-sided half truth is that he wants to convince the public that this is the majority of opinion. It's not.

Simple logic would be sufficient to debunk Spinster's myths. [

Did I say some Muslims DO NOT do this? Some Muslims do not do a lot of things. Some of them haven't even read the Qur'aan. Some don't pray or fast, etc. etc. Yet, they call themselves Muslims! What are the majority of Muslims to do? Do you want us to get them certification that they can claim "Hey, I'm really a practicing Muslim?" Such stupidity.

-EELS said to ISLAMOPHOBIA - I am not sure I understand your argument. And I am glad and not surprised that you and many other Muslims condemn killing people for being an apostate.

But, you admit, do you not, that there is a debate within the Muslim Community about the merits and legitimacy of killing apostates?

In much the same way I suppose there is a debate within the Church of England about the merits and legitimacy of female Bishops.

I merely asked who the people arguing for killing apostates actually are?

Your reply, (Ignoring the confusion caused by the "DO NOT do this" rant.)

Seems to indicate that you are saying that these people are not Muslim, which appears to contradict your premise that the debate is within (your words, not mine) the Muslim Community.

If they are not Muslim, but are within the Muslim community then who are they?

I ask this because I am genuinely astonished that any one can argue that slaying someone for leaving or changing their religion can ever be a good thing. I would have hoped that this debate would have been concluded many many years ago.

I am not Robert Spencer's cheerleader.

-ISLAMOPHOBIA - I am not sure I understand your argument.

My argument is basically, Islam does not advocate for the killing of anyone leaving Islam.

That's why I asked for Spinster to find me a single verse in the Qur'aan that says to do this. He'll not find one, so he'll go to hadith (normally described as the traditions of Prophet Muhammad - may it be words, actions, etc.).

Now, hadith itself are classified into various categories, such as "authentic - sahih" (but that is problematic as well) "hasan - good", "daef - weak" "munkar - fabricated" etc.

How then is Spinster giving a hadith that NOT ONLY contradict the Qur'aan (by default it's to be discredited if there were honest scholars who don't have agendas much like Spinster), but is by its definition questionable in its attribution to the Prophet Muhammad? I think that's very dishonest and misleading.

But, you admit, do you not, that there is a debate within the Muslim Community about the merits and legitimacy of killing apostates?

I'll be the first to say that many Muslims are ignorant of Islam. Many of them I see practice a jahili concept that is foreign to the teachings of Islam. I have my theories as to why this is happening mostly in the middle east and in areas where there is less emphasis on education (especially among Muslim women), but that is mere speculation.

Again, I am not saying Muslims do not do this practice of "honor killing" a problematic word at best in my opinion. What's honorable in killing your family or any one for that matter? In cases where killing is necessary as in all civilized parts of the world, then I can see the reason, but in this case, I am totally repulsed that anyone would kill someone for leaving a faith. That's just ridiculous.

What I'm stating clearly that this practice is not from an Islamic perspective, it's from a jahili cultural practice mainly found in parts of the middle east.

Only 20% of the Muslim population is from the middle east and I'm not stating that all people in the middle east are ignorant of Islam.

If Spinster wants to see change in the Muslims, what he's doing is alienating the Muslims WHO CAN make a difference, not encouraging the extremists positions. This guy's agenda is very questionable at best. He talks from both sides of his mouth.

-GAYE said to ISLAMOPHOBIA - Then another verse.. Volume 9, Book 84, Number 64:
Narrated 'Ali:

Whenever I tell you a narration from Allah's Apostle, by Allah, I would rather fall down from the sky than ascribe a false statement to him, but if I tell you something between me and you (not a Hadith) then it was indeed a trick (i.e., I may say things just to cheat my enemy). No doubt I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "During the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, where-ever you find them, kill them, for who-ever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection."

-GAYE continued: - islomophobia there are a couple of verses like.. verse 2:256 which states "Let there be no compulsion in religion, for truth stands out from error"

But nearly all Muslim scholars agree that both verses were spoken by Muhammad during an earlier time in his teachings when he did not have the power to compel others as then came these such verses.__

009.029 __YUSUFALI: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. __Under Islamic law, or Sharia, the penalty for apostasy is death. Much of the punishment for apostasy is found in the Hadith—the written record of Muhammad's words and deeds, which are considered in Islam to be an infallible guide to faith and practice.__

-GAYE continued - islamophobia, you must be a Muslim who is trying to defend the moon god and his prophet.
Oh hang on maybe you are not a Muslim as you obviously dont know what Mohammad himself did to the people around him..

but then perhaps you are not educated in the ways of Mohammad..

but then you use words like ad hominem, and for those who dont know what ad hominem means, (it can also be called argumentum ad hominem) which means that instead of reasoning with a person, that you attack the prejudice, character, motives and emotions of the person you are arguing with instead of debating the issues on logical grounds..

In other words ad hominem is one that has deviated from the claims being made and instead focuses on the person making the claim to perhaps destroy that character, just as I did in the first instance here in regards [the phenomenon of ‘so-called’] islamophobia.

-DUMBLEDORESARMY told GAYE - Gaye: Iphob is a Muslim and I am quite, quite sure that it knows its texts and teachings back to front.

I find that the simplest explanation is the most likely: that it is lying to protect Islam, since in the USA and in some other places the number of non-Muslims is still large enough for the Muslim colonies, in those places, not to be able to do exactly as they please to anyone they feel like doing it to.

And they are afraid that if the surrounding non-Muslims find out what Islam *is* all about - as threatens to happen, with a case like that of this girl - then the game will be up. 'Islamophobia' is trying to buy time, running interference. And if that means denying up hill and down dale what is plainly there in the Islamic texts, throwing the Hadith under the bus, claiming that anything evil we see happening in front of our eyes in every Muslim society on earth is 'un-Islamic' or 'cultural', then it will do that.

Here is Nonie Darwish, ex-Muslim, from a speech given at Berkely in October 2007, on lying in Islam: "On Arab TV, I once saw a Muslim preacher telling little children that lying is not allowed except under three conditions *1- Lying to non-Muslims when it is in the best interest of Islam* {my emphasis added - dda}. 2- Lying to Muslims if it will end conflict between them. And 3rd: Lying to one’s wife to improve the relationship.
"Lying thus has become an obligation in international relationships, Muslim relationships and family relationships. Any wonder why Muslims were silent after 9/11? Those who expose the lying game are considered traitors.

"By allowing lying, Muslims have created a culture unable to distinguish between lies from truth; truth has become a convoluted game of saving face for the best interest of Islam."'

End of part two of my record of the original discussion of this article.

Part three of the original discussion of this article.

-GAYE said - islamophobia, we out here are not blind, nor stupid..
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 260:
Narrated Ikrima:

Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "

Volume 9, Book 89, Number 271:
Narrated Abu Musa:

A man embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism. Mu'adh bin Jabal came and saw the man with Abu Musa. Mu'adh asked, "What is wrong with this (man)?" Abu Musa replied, "He embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism." Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down unless you kill him (as it is) the verdict of Allah and His Apostle

Bukhari (89:271) - A man who embraces Islam, then reverts to Judaism is to be killed according to "the verdict of Allah and his apostle."

BLOGAGOG said - This is very good news. I had a feeling that the courts would deliver this child to her doom.

IMNODHIMMI said - "The sight of her father makes the teen "frantic and hysterical."

"Reached by a Sentinel reporter by phone, the girl's mother said little. "Yes, of course" her daughter would be safe should a judge eventually order her back there, she said.
And her father would not harm his daughter if she wanted to be a Christian, the woman said. She referred other questions to her husband."

Sounds to me like all his women folk are deathly afraid of this upstanding example of a muslim "man".

ALARMED PIG FARMER - (quoting Mr Spencer) 'I am trying to get in touch with Blake Lorenz to offer testimony from myself and others about Islamic apostasy law...'

So, you're itching to walk into that courtroom and tell the truth. But the judge has little or no interest in the truth, except as necessary to cover his ass.

*** Bukhari Vol 7 Bk 67 No 427 ***

This has been the case ever since 1965, when with its fantastic Griswold ruling the Supreme Court announced the Constitution to be a "living" document, which of course was turnspeak for a "dying" and hopefully one day "dead" document.

*** 48:25 ***

In other words, the judge won't be sympathetic to the facts of the matter cuz like his Moslem witness, he too is compelled to commit taqiyya when put in a tight spot.

DUMBLEDORESARMY said - Ladies and gentlemen: 'Islamophobia' above is lying and denying in a most blatant and repulsive manner.

One of the constants in the history of Islam is its relentless attacks upon, and attempts to eliminate, anyone who tries to leave it.

Here are some contemporary cases of murderous Muslim harassment of apostates - *in a modern western country*.

From the Times online, Anthony Browne reporting on February 5 2005 - "Muslim apostates cast out and at risk from faith and family" -
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article510589.ece?token=null&offset=12

And the great American scholar of Islam, Samuel Zwemer, who had lived, worked and travelled within the Muslim world all the way from North Africa as far as western China, wrote a book entitled "The Law of Apostasy in Islam" in which he discusses in detail the Muslim canonical texts that authorise the persecution and murder of apostates, and the traditional Muslim legal/ theological interpretations of those texts; and he also relates many, many actual cases of the application of this law.

The entire book may be read on line - just click the link I'm providing, and then click on the embedded links to read chapter by chapter.

http://www.answering-islam.org/Books/Zwemer/Apostasy/index.htm

Part four of the original discussion of this article, as recorded and kept by me, Dumbledoresarmy, and now re-posted.

-ISLAMOPHOBIA said (to DUMBLEDORESARMY) - I'm lying? That's a worthy laugh.

You and the rest of jokers here fall into the ad hominem attacks on me quite too often.

Read my arguments if you can and show me what exactly I am lying about.

-DUMBLEDORESARMY replied - The information in the two links I provided is quite sufficient to convince *me* and any other rational non-Muslim human being that this girl - like anyone else who leaves Islam, anywhere in the Muslim world, and even within a Muslim-dominated area in the non-Muslim world - is in significant danger.

Nothing you can say will convince me otherwise.

-ISLAMOPHOBIA said (to another poster) - 'go look up what an ad hominem'.....

I've asked you already, prove where I am wrong and the reason is very simple, YOU CANNOT!

You send me to a link answering-islam.org, well try answering-christianity.com

I'm not here to convince you of anything, but I'll surely challenge your lies, that's certain!

DUMBLEDORESARMY replied to ISLAMOPHOBIA - I am not lying.

I am referring people to the scholar Samuel Zwemer's book which stated a mountainous pile of *observed facts* about

1. the content of Islamic texts, such as are deemed most authoritative by Muslims and

2. the conduct of Muslims, consistent with the contents of those texts.

Samuel Zwemer's book LONG predates the age of the internet; the 'answering Islam' site is merely a handy gateway from which people may access Zwemer's unaltered text, just as on the day it was published, decades ago.

I could just as easily have given people a list of second-hand bookshops and of university libraries where Zwemer's book could be procured. And where would you be then?

You know I am not lying.

You are merely engaging in a despicable variety of psychological warfare; you are throwing at me, and at others, whatever accusation you think might serve, momentarily, to confuse or hurt.

I think that you know we are telling the truth, describing the facts; but you *have* to try to stop that truth and those facts from becoming known.

Oh, and I might mention Nonie Darwish's book on Sharia, "Cruel and Usual Punishment". She knows Islam from the inside - and all the standard Islamic textual sources.

I am so weary of people like you claiming that anyone who says anything about the blackness at the core of Islam is 'lying'. It gets really tiresome after a while, to see Muslims with their arms up to the elbow in the cookie jar, trying to tell us that there ain't no jar and there ain't no cookies and they aren't in the kitchen at all.

-DAVIDP told ISLAMOPHOBIA - Islamopobia, you should look up what an ad hominem argument is - you seem to think that anything except a direct refutation of your claims is "an ad hominem". Raising counter arguments is not an ad-hominim argument.

A classic sign of debating desparation: calling the other side's arguments "ad hominem" all the time.

DUMBLEDORESARMY said - God bless attorney Rosa Gonzalez, in there and fighting. Now *there's* a lady worthy of her long-ago Spanish ancestors - may all the saints of Spain, especially those who resisted the Moorish Muslim occupation, sustain and protect her.

GRAHAMR - Guys, I don't think she is danger of being "honor killed" that's when you get raped or something and your family punishes you for it.

This girl is in danger because she is an "Apostate", someone who has left the faith. Yeah, I know it's kinda the same thing but I just wanted to point that out.

-JOCKAIRA said - Being raped or becoming apostate are two of the many things which besmirch family honor and make the woman or girl susceptible to being "honor-killed" by members of her family.

Because of her apostasizing from Islam and converting to Christianity, 17-year-old Rifqa Bary has also embarrassed and dishonored Islam and the Ummah.

For that she is not only in danger of being honor-killed by a family member, but also killing by any other non-family devout Muslim who takes it into his pointy little head to square things with Allâh.

Rifqa is in deep shit, and the Lorenz' are standing there with her. Under Islamic doctrine they are guilty of harboring a fugitive from Islamic justice and therefore also subject to killing. Any killer of Rifqa or the Lorenz' for the reasons noted shall suffer no repercussions under Islam, but instead receive the blessings of Allâh, the Merciful.

WILLIAMTELL said- I hope the KIND Mr. Spencer is successful in assisting in this poor girl's defense. She will need it.

KUFFAR said - Once again.... Politically correct newspaper editors change entirely the quote by the Imam to present Islam in much more favorable light.

He said nothing about Islam not calling for her death or harm for apostasy, simply only stating the father should not perpetrate such harm as a result of anger.

Once again.... Politically correct newspaper editors change entirely the quote by the Imam to present Islam in much more favorable light. He said nothing about Islam not calling for her death or harm for apostasy, simply only stating the father should not perpetrate such harm as a result of anger.

For what its worth..., the Orlando Sentinel will receive a letter from me. But it probably won't do much good.

This artificial comfort afforded by political correctness in the face of Islam is very much like warming up the frogs water temperature to a boil slowly....

KNOW YOUR RIGHTS said - The truth about islam is out!!!

what used to be hidden has been exposed

ROSEWARREN said - I sent a copy of the column to a lawyer friend of mine who lives near Orlando. Hopefully he will get a chance to read it. Maybe he knows that Christian group as he is a very active Christian in the area.

BILLYBLOGGS said - If there is ANY chance of harm befalling the girl, as she is a minor she should be protected by the state, and if her family are a threat to her life because of belief or honor, they should be denied access to her.

ISLAMOPHOBIA said - Is there any case in Shri Lanka of an "honor killing" (NOTE: credible source please)

Is there any case in Ohio of an "honor killing" done by a Muslim? (NOTE: credible source please)

-DUMBLEDORESARMY told ISLAMOPHOBIA - "There are Muslims in Sri Lanka; the 'Moors', a significant minority of the population.

So I would not be surprised if there have been ritual murders of females carried out within Muslim families there.

However, who knows whether such cases even come to the knowledge of the authorities?

There are plenty of 'honor' murders that have taken place in the UK, that the UK police -among the best and most efficient in the world - did not initially recognise for what they were.

So your demand for a 'credible source' is disingenuous, because you know just how difficult it would be for people living outside Sri Lanka to research the matter...and because a lot of these girls probably just mysteriously 'disappear' or are written off as suicides or accidents.

Shall we think about what's been happening in the Netherlands, or Turkey, or Germany?

Lots and lots of cases of Muslim family murders of females, there.

As for Ohio - given that the number of Muslims in Ohio has been, up till very recently, pretty small, your demand that evidence be brought , from a 'credible source' (and what, I wonder, would you regard as a 'credible source'? given that Islam doesn't rate the testimony of ANY non-Muslim witness very high) of an honor murder *in Ohio* (but nowhere else in the USA) is, again, an attempt to deflect and distract.

I suspect that the reason you so carefully require that a case be produced from Ohio, and from Ohio ONLY, is because there *have* been honor murders, ritual sacrifices of females, within Muslim families, in other states of the USA. One of the more spectacular recent cases was that of Amina and Sarah Said, in Texas, murdered by their Egyptian Muslim father and, very probably, their own brother."

End of fourth part of original discussion of the posted article.

Part five of my record of the original discussion of this article.

A10BILL said - I Called Amy Edward, one of the co-authors of the Sentinal article, a few minutes ago.
I implored her to understand that the Koran is considered to be the literal word of God and as such, cannot be changed by mortal men.
In the Koral, Muhammad states "Anyone who changes his religion, kill him."
I told her, "This girl is truly in danger for her life."
"If she is returned to her parents, she may disappear or simply show up dead one day."
"We have had numerous murder cases with circumstances just like this."

She thanked me for the call but whether or not my words had an impact I cannot say.

-DUMBLEDORESARMY told A10BILLR - Actually, the statement 'Anyone who changes his religion, kill him' is from the Hadith.

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 260:

Narrated Ikrima:
Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "

Also
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 259

DEUSVULT said - A human life is at stake here. Something must be done!

PULSAR said - (quoting) "The teen, a non-citizen, told Lorenz she was fearful that her father would send her to Sri Lanka."

or to a grave

EBONYSTONE said - The best strategy for her lawyers is to wait out the clock.

Once she's 18, she's a free agent, and her family has no claim to her. When I first saw the posting, I saw that she was 17 and hoped she might only have a few months to go. Unfortunately, it now appears that she just turned 17, so she's got a year to go.

Still, it can be done. There was a case back in the 80's of a Ukrainian family who emigrated to the U.S. This was when the Ukraine was still Soviet. After a year or two in the U.S. the parents decided they preferred to return to the Ukraine, and they did. But their 14-y-o son wanted to stay in the U.S. His lawyers managed to get enough postponements and stays and injunctions to put the decision off until he turned 18.

BURAQ IS DEAD said - Comment refers to Muslim girl convert to Christianity

This girl is in mortal danger.

Such cases are almost a weekly occurence by now in Germany: Terrified muslim underage girl fears for a plethora of reasons (and rightfully) for her life, runs to the police or hides in a shelter.

German judges always order her back to her familiy, because in mainstream judical ruling here, everything is done not "to split families".

Once designed for civilised people, it is offically aided murder in case of many Mohammedans.

When once again such a girl is killed here, police and judges shrug and tell you: As long as there is only the fear (and somethimes the threat of) violence and no actual violent act is committed, we can do nothing. Family comes first and we have to trust what Mohammedans say because why should we dicriminate against them what we already do if we doubt their good intentions.
These murders meanwhile are part of weekly German Mohammedan life.

No newspaper bothers to tell you anymore. You have to filter it out of the daily police reports of every city. Law enforcement and authoryties are burying the huge problem.

And there is another rub: As bad as the term "honour" killing was, it at least pointed to Islam - for the informed. Mohammedans aided by the left raised a big stink here and demanded the'd be not disriminated against: If a German murders a family-member, it is called a "family tragedy", so they argued. "Only Migrants (eg. Mohammedans) are stigmatized with "honor-killings." Now as good Dhimmis the media report Mohammedan crimes as "family tragedies".

Well: In Islam it is the law to coerce (permit, make it lawful, make it allowed, make it halal) by force and murder, what you can't achieve by rational dispute or simple acceptance.

Whatever questions the divine order of Islam, has to be omitted.

This creats a life in permenent fear for ones life.

In the West, this primitive, instinctive and hormone-anger driven behaviour ist curbed with a taboo and when it happens, it is illegal.

But obviously not anymore, when Mohammedans are involved.
Left/progressive people with rosy glasses towards Islam already and willingly sacrifice humans and permit Islam a free kill in my country. Hide this girl from her family. Don't let this Mohammedan disease spread in the US where it has already started.

BURAQ IS DEAD said - Just found this contact adress on their website:
Global Revolution Church
P.O. Box 533961
Orlando, FL 32853-3961
Phone: + 1 407 802 2354 (haven't checked if it's working)
E-mail: info@grcorlando.org
http://www.globalrevolutionchurch.org/

PATHOS LOGOS said - I fear for this girl's life too...it's a very real and tragic thing for a child to actually fear for her life -- I wouldn't discredit her concerns one bit.

Florida's such a long way from Ohio...and Orlando? It can be a scary place, especially for a teenaged girl. I travel there often (most recently for my 18th birthday), but never alone that I can recall.

She's in my (and my family's) prayers. If they release her to the custody of her parents, they may as well be signing her death warrant. I just hope her lawyers adequately point out the significance of apostacy in Islam.

-IBNSANA (Muslim troll) said to PATHOSLOGOS - Dont try to act innocent, it can be seen what you people on this site ar really like
-PATHOSLOGOS said - "You're right. I'm really just a big meanie. I don't care at all about this girl who could be killed for exercising basic human rights. ): How'd you know?

Classic case of projection."

End of part five of my copy of the original discussion of this article.

And the thread concluded with an exchange between the Mohammedtroll, Islamophobia, and another poster, 'Mikeymike'.

ISLAMOPHOBIA said -

response to mikeymike

MM - 'Why not practice what you preach? You do your argument a disservice by calling me a bigot simply because I disagree with you.'

I welcome your disagreements, however, base them on the facts, not the fictions of Spinster's bigotry and others like him. Facts speaks for themselves. If you're willing to deal with the facts, then lets do so. Don't look at one side of the issue and ignore the other, that's what we call intellectual dishonesty.

MM - 'Actually, I don't recall seeing anywhere that this is a majority argument. I am quite willing to say that you are correct; I am not active in the Islamic community.'

Correct, it's not a majority opinion or argument in favor of this nonsensical "honor killing". The main point is this has NOTHING to do with Islam period. What Spinster tries to do is bundle the be behavior of some Muslims and paint that broad brush to apply to all Muslims then goes further to make the assumption that this is inherent within the teachings of Islamic law. This guy doesn't even have a clue about Islamic law.

MM - 'So let's say you are correct that there is a minority that thinks it is quite normal to kill your own family members because they leave Islam. What is an acceptable figure to you? 30%? 10%? '

An acceptable figure would be 0. Even if we go with 10% of 1.2 billion Muslims (minimum), we'll have a figure of 120,000,000 which again is an absurd claim. I know some bible thumpers would wish for this figure killing, Muslims killing Muslims, but that's not the case.

Again, do you honestly think Muslims are to police each other as to who will commit a crime? Do Christians monitor those who blow up clinics? Does the whole of Christianity take responsibility for those Christians who do this? I would like you to answer that question.

MM - 'My concern is that there is in fact a debate at all. My concern is that this attitude exists at all. My concern is for the girl in the middle of this very real danger. And my final concern is that I cannot tell the difference between those who would and those who would not kill. Can you?'

I agree with you 100%. I don't see what this has to do with Islam. The fact still remains, people who are ignorant of their religious obligation does, as all people who are ignorant, ignorant things. You cannot blame the faith based on what stupid adherent do within it. If, it was sanctioned within the teachings of Islam, THEN I can see the uproar.

Like you, I cannot know who will or will not kill her. Would it be better if she was killed by a drunk driver?

Drunk Driving Statistics for the United States

Alcohol-related car crashes kill someone every 30 minutes and injure someone every two minutes.

It's more statistically possible for her to be killed by a drunk than an honor killing, will you challenge this fact?

MM 'I'm trying to think of other groups that have this debate - Catholics? No. Athiests? No. Freemasons. No. Organised criminals. Yes. Military dictatorships. Yes.'

Lets see, the killing is done because of one's "honor". That's the basis of which these "honor killings" are done.

On average more than three women a day are murdered by their husbands or boyfriends in the United States. In 2005, 1,181 women were murdered by an intimate partner. Who does this, what religion? It's not on the TV "News" channels 24/7 or in "Newspapers" with the headline "MUSLIM husbands..." so we can rule out that it was done by Muslims.

Want to comment?

MM - 'Congratulations. On this issue, Islam has more in common with criminals and despots than organised religions.'

What's an ad hominem again? hmmm.

-MIKEYMIKE replied to ISLAMOPHOBIA - Let's start by agreeing on some definitions.
Intellectual dishonesty: representing a position that the advocate knows to be false; deliberately omitting facts that are relevant to one's position.
Ad Hominem: Latin for "argument to the man"; attacking the person instead of their ideas.

I am guilty of neither. And making a point about the correlation between Islam and groups of criminals and despots is not an attack on you personally, it is an attack on your religion.

-MIKEYMIKE added - (quoting Islamophobia) 'This has nothing to do with Islam period." Then why did you post "First, this issue is debated within the Muslim community, it's not set in stone that this is the case"?

If it is debated in the community, then the attitude exits as an Islamic position, whether you think it is the correct position or not.

Iphob: "Again, do you honestly think Muslims are to police each other as to who will commit a crime?"

Actually, yes. If I am aware of criminal behaviour, it is my responsibility to turn that person in. And, God forbid, should I ever hear of a conspiracy to commit a crime, I'll be turning them in there as well.

-MIKEYMIKE said - (quoting Iphob) 'Does the whole of Christianity take responsibility for those Christians who do this? I would like you to answer that question."
- The fact that there have been failures from leaders within my Catholic community to expose criminal behaviour (specifically in relation to sex crimes) is something that I have to deal with, to my anger and shame. This is not something that I am proud of. And as a Catholic, I have to respond to non-Catholics who bring this up; I have to take responsibility for the actions of my leaders.
Having said that, this is not a debate in my community. Nobody is wishing these criminals had never been caught, nobody is saying that what they did is excusable in any way.
THAT is the difference.

-MIKEYMIKE told ISLAMOPHOBIA - So on to comparing honor killings to drink driving and domestic assault. Just because one thing is more likely to happen, does not make the other less abhorrent. Can we find anyone in the community who would be willing to say that drink driving and domestic assault are acceptable? No, in fact we can point to advertising campaigns, educational programs and jail time as our societal rejection of these activities. The fact that these things still happen means that more must be done.
So let's look at the Islamic community - what marketing, educational programs or sharia based sanctions can you point to that show the Islamic community's rejection of honor killings?

VINISAAC said - "This story is so similar to the true story of Nazeela Beevi at

http://nazeelabeevi.com

I really hope that Rifqa Bary doesn't go through the torture Nazeela Beevi went through."

And that is where my record of the discussion comes to an end - dda.