As long as the ideology underlying the Taliban's existence -- Islamic jihad -- is not addressed forthrightly (in Pakistan and in the West), there will be plenty of others to fill Mehsud's position. What one can hope for from such a single strike will come from evidence gathered, and the temporary disruption and disorientation of the Taliban in the area. "U.S. Official: 'Strong Indications' Pakistani Taliban Leader Baitullah Mehsud is Dead," by Martha Raddatz, George Stephanopolous, and Nick Schifrin for ABCNews, August 6:
"There is strong indication" that Pakistani Taliban leader Baitullah Mehsud was killed in a CIA drone strike that targeted his second father-in-law's house Wednesday, a senior administration official told ABC News.
"Efforts are underway to determine for certain whether it was Mehsud, but there are hopes that it is him," the official said.
A Pakistani official confirmed the report but said they are awaiting 100 percent confirmation from DNA tests.
U.S. officials say they do not have physical evidence yet, but there are "indicators." They hope to obtain, but will not necessarily rely on DNA tests.
The missile attack is also said to have killed at least three people, and Mehsud's second wife is thought by U.S. and Pakistani officials to be among them.
Mehsud's network is based in the remote region of South Waziristan in northwest Pakistan, where the Pakistani army has little control and the Taliban and senior members of al Qaeda consider a stronghold....
Re-posting what I, dumbledoresarmy, preserved of the comments originally made to this article, while we were using IntenseDebate.
First part.
CIVILUS DEFENDUS said - If there is no war on terror, did we just 'murder' this guy? Is Taliban al Q? The playbook seems to be the same.
BTW, the comments have been like the quran - all the comment pages disassembled and rebound at random... Makes it difficult, but I can still follow the plot.
EASTVIEW said - This is good news, but I wonder if Baitullah Mehsud was read his Miranda rights before the strike?
I also wonder if it is significant that the strike was carried out by the CIA, rather than by, say, the Air Force? My retired career military brother brought this seemingly innocuous tidbit of information to my attention and assured me that it is, indeed, significant. Anyone out there with some thoughts about this?
Slight OT: I found the phrase "...second father-in-law..." in the article intriguing. I suppose if one has, say, four wives, then it logically follows that one would have an equal number of fathers-in-law -- and an equal number of mothers-in-law. Of course, there would be the twist that your mother-in-law might also be your niece or cousin at the same time, but that's another subject. This lends a whole new dimension to the problem of in-laws that I haven't heard commented on before. I bet this would be fertile grounds for novelists. I can't imagine the problems involved in organizing a family reunion. Do they wear name tags with small family trees printed on them?
ABU LAHAB said - "There is strong indication" that Pakistani Taliban leader Baitullah Mehsud was killed in a CIA drone strike that targeted his second father-in-law's house Wednesday, a senior administration official told ABC News."
[Happy_Dance]
ISLAMMACHTFREI said - Hopefully positive ID will require scooping up some grease spot for DNA analysis - reduced to gruel is a great fate for these losers.
I love those drones.
From what I understand, they are really starting to mess with their little jihadi heads - they can never rest assured that they are not in the crosshairs at any given moment. Constantly looking over their shoulders. It's great.
Now if we could just get OBL or al-Zawahiri.
EASTVIEW said (again) - This is good news, but I wonder if Baitullah Mehsud was read his Miranda rights before the strike?
I also wonder if it is significant that the strike was carried out by the CIA, rather than by, say, the Air Force? My retired career military brother brought this seemingly innocuous tidbit of information to my attention and assured me that it is, indeed, significant. Anyone out there with some thoughts about this?
-JOCKAIRA replied - Eastview,
I am sure that USAF is involved in this. "Flying" and targeting from these drones is not something you can do without a great deal of training. It would be much easier for the CIA to use current trained USAF personnel than to spend months and millions of dollars to do that training themselves.
If the mission were simple surveillance the CIA might just drop a memo over to USAF with coordinates and subject matter. If the mission involved a "target" it could be done in the same manner, but to satisfy legal requirements a "pilot" might be detached for "special service."
This was the SOP for U-2 and SR-71 flights and there is no need to mess with something that works.
-EASTVIEW said - Got it. I think my brother might have been referring not to the C&C structure, which, as you say seems to be working well, but rather publicly associating the CIA with the operation.
-JOCKAIRA said - (quoting) "I wonder if Baitullah Mehsud was read his Miranda rights before the strike?"
Baitullah Mehsud was advised of his rights when he made the decision to regulate his life by adherence to the Qur’ân.
He also knew that there was a $5,000,000 USD reward for him, dead or alive, and that at least two different sovereign nations wanted him.
At any time prior to his death, he could have saved the lives of his wives and his own, as well as the lives of many other innocent bystanders, simply by surrendering himself to the nearest Coalition soldier.
His death is on his own head.
-GRAHAMR said - "Well, on that side of the border he would have to surrender to the nearest Pakistani soldier. Who would probably let him go."
END of first part of my record of original comments for this article - dda.
Part two of my (dda's) record of original comments made to this article about Baitullah Mehsud.
DUHSWAMI said - Killed by drone...Couldn't happen to a nicer guy...Allah willed it...If not it was Rasool Obama who willed it...Same difference...Is Allah fighting the Taliban too? Allah and Rasool both work in strange and bewildering ways...Mostly strange and bewildering...We are no longer fighting terrorism, but we keep killing terrorists...And the strangest of all, we are no longer fighting jihad, the inner struggle for purity...That war is over so now Mahoundians are free to be as pure as they can get...How pure is that?...I'm not sure, but I think Abdullah M is about as pure as they come...Pure what is up to the imagination...
MP11 said - This is actually much more important than Mr. Spencer thinks - it basically means they're able to collected very good and reliable information from the area on high value targets.
-UNDHIMMI said- Hold your horses - it's not been completely confirmed yet. The Pakistani Government's and the ISI's double-gaming, taqiyya, disinformation from the enemy, poor intelligence assets and scared residents all conspire to ensure that NO information from this region is wholly reliable without multiple, trusted verification and evidence.
DAGW - Yes, the Rewards for Justice program at the State Dept. was offering up to five million bucks for Baitullah Mehsud, dead or alive.
I would have killed him for five million.
I'm cheap to the point I'd have killed him for a half million.
But what are the practical chances of killing him for even the moon itself? I'd say about zero. The average Jihad Watch reader isn't in any position to kill any bad guys at all ever, and certainly not a guy like Baitullah Mehsud. It's not a matter of money. But for a company with the manpower and materiel to do the job, five million isn't worth the effort. There's no profit in it at that price. So, I think the offer is silly, not put forth seriously.
If the Department of State were serious, I think they'd offer $2,500.00 per head for those guys wandering around in small groups planting i.e.d.s.
Those guys are available to motivated men and women who could do the job effectively and at a profit. A dozen guys down is a significant amount of cash, and practical, for adventurous types, even foreigners in the East. But it would mean looking at ourselves as mean-spirited and money-grubbing men who value hard work and profit over big names and glamorous headlines.
Killing some no-name jihadi for a reasonable amount of cash is sort of low in the minds of those who don't think of this work as worthy, I presume. This all-or-nothing utopian thinking is going to hurt us in the long term. But just in case the State Dept. is looking for ideas here, take my advice and hire guys who are willing to do some dirty work like this for the sake of a reasonable income over the long term.
-EBONYSTONE said - (quoting Dag) "I think they [should] offer $2,500.00 per head for those guys wandering around in small groups planting i.e.d.s."
Nice idea, DagW! For the $5 million for Mehsud, they could bag 2000 of his foot-soldiers. That might give pause to anyone thinking of joining his mob.
The problem would be in verification.
What would keep Mehsud and his gang from killing bystanders and turning them as terrorists and claiming the rewards, and then using the money to buy more weapons and ammo?
PROUDKAFIR said - Thanks for the good news.
Well: Nunc est bibendum.
YOM AL JUMAH said - The CIA played a mighty dirty game by 1st targeting Mehsud's innocent wife....thus playing about with Meshud's mental anguish and then getting to him. His 2nd/3rd in line commanders will have told him not to go to his other wife (or to bring her to him) ...but he didn't listen...and paid the ultimate price.
I think that possibly for the 1st time they are thinking that being illiterate to kufr science is not enough. Kalishnikovs and RPGs are not enough, and they have no answer (yet) to these drones. They figure that they need early warning to these damned drones to keep going.
They may have got this warning from the Pak forces...but have burnt bridges with them too...and the locals cannot do that for them either..... Let's see if the Iraninas/Chinese can provide this lfe saving technology to them.
-SAXONLANDS said - There is no way a guerilla force can stop Predator. The only way you can see them coming is with a mobile radar platform, backed up with Stinger or some other shoulder launched G2A missile. Unfortunately, somethig that bulky would present a big juicy target for an Apache or Cobra.
Talking about dirty tricks, if you recruit 10 year olds and strap explosives to them, then I would say dirty warfare is the only thing the Taliban are outdoing the CIA in!
God bless the Predator! Long may it fly!
-EBONYSTONE said - And there are even better things on the way. The Predator is fairly large and expensive, and its weapons are often unnecessarily powerful. One doesn't need an anti-tank missile to destroy a jeep. New drones are being developed that are much smaller (and cheaper, so that one can buy many of them for the price of one Predator). Instead on an anti-tank rocket, they'll carry a number of small rockets, each with perhaps the charge of a grenade.
-SAXONLANDS said - True that Hellfires have a base cost of $25k, but it still needs to be retained in the Pak/Afghan theater for bunker busting and clearing caves. Lower yield munitions might not accomplish this.
-EBONYSTONE said - I didn't mean to suggest that a smaller, lighter, cheaper drone would competely replace the Predator. Nor does the USAF expect it to. It will still have its uses. But at present it's being used for jobs that could be done by a much cheaper weapon
-PULSAR said - " they have no answer (yet) to these drones. "
they could try being a peaceful people and stop blowing up schools, merchants,goverment buildings, stop the evil child marriages , they could stop their evil plans of not educating women, they could allow their people more freedom of choice in spouses and jobs and allow them more control over their own destiny and they could stop Killing Christians and non Muslims for starters...and ditch that insipid, draconian Shar'ia law...
but they won't....so for now..they are stuck with watching the skies for those large stinging mosquitoes...
-EASTVIEW said (to pulsar) - They could, indeed, but of course 1,350 years of history tells us they won't.
-EASTVIEW said - (quoting YAJ) "I think that possibly for the 1st time they are thinking that being illiterate to kufr science is not enough. Kalishnikovs and RPGs are not enough, and they have no answer (yet) to these drones. They figure that they need early warning to these damned drones to keep going."
Well, duh...Do I detect a glimmer of recognition that perhaps, just perhaps, the playbook you guys have been using is in need of revising?
Your solution? Turn to the Kufr Chinese or the raffadite dog Iranians.
Lots of luck with that, Yom. These people are every bit as pissed off at you guys as we are, and if they get involved at all it will be with offers to help in the targeting.
-SORROW said to YAJ - I am sure that many of the people he was responsible for killing had wives, children, brothers, sisters, and other relatives. This is very much like feeling sorry for Pol Pot.
-ABU LAHAB quotes YAJ - "The CIA played a mighty dirty game by 1st targeting Mehsud's innocent wife"
The lament of the jihadist......"Play by the rules (that we don't play by)!"
-KIPHAMILTON said to YAJ- As Bin Laden has said, "You love life, we love death." - Happy to oblige.
And just how many times did Mehsud play with peoples' mental anguish after murdering their loved ones?
Spare me.
And, the more Islamic illiteracy to "Kufr" science the better.
A seventh century world will not be able to withstand a 21st century one- at least when the time comes that the 21st century one finally decides to play rough.
PROXYWAR said - Wow, Yom al Juma is a Jihadist!!!
What a shocker.
Mr. Spencer, can you forward his IP address to the FBI?
-PULSAR said - Other Muslims who post here from time to time may be Jihadists too...they certainly are more openly hostile....and they certainly see nothing wrong with the violent Islamists....they support them..and Islam tells them it is their obligation to do so....
SAXONLANDS said - Dont worry ya muslimeen, Allah knows best! :)
END of second part of my record of original comments for this article - dda.
Third and final part of my record of original comments for this article.
IPSOFACTO said - What is an "extremist" in Islamic context?
The answer seems important because the West is no longer fighting a "war on terror" or jihadists or terrorist but just plain old "violent extremism":
"salaams
Imam Nawawi in his Sharh Sahih Muslim has a good explanation of the hadith, 'the zealots [extremists] will perish.'
... which i don't have to hand unfortunately (that wasn't particularly helpful was it?)
An interesting take on the idea of extremism is to define an extremist as one who is unbalanced. That is to say, Iman (faith), Islam (practice) and Ihsan (devotion) are the three basic fundamentals of the din.
They can be conceptualied as a three-legged stool. IF all three are applied correctly, are of the right 'length,' and strong, then the stool will support one's weight. If one is defective, the stool will topple or collapse. It appears that most of the extreme groups thoughout our history have had a deficiency in one of these three pillars, often caused by an unhealthy pre-ocupation with another.
For exampe, these 'jihadis' have developed an unhealthy fascination with military jihad at the expense of good character, which is why they can quite rationally square blowing poeple up, attacking churches and cutting off civilian heads with good Islamic practice.
Another hallmark of extremism is the large ego - one feels that one's own supposed piety and righteousness render one better than everyone else, including scholars. Therefore, whoever disagrees with such a person is automatically incorrect. We shoudl be more like Imam Shafi who, in a debate with a lesser scholar said, 'I am right with the possibility of being wrong; he is wrong with the possibility of being right.' One finds this totally lacking among both extremists and many ordinary people as well - it is perhaps a universal human failing that is accentuated in people who are zealous about anything.
I believe it was Churchill who quipped, 'a fanatic is someone who will not change his mind ... or the topic!'
ws. talib"
Something seems to be going on among so called "moderate" Muslims!
-MAXXINFIDEL said - Something going on?
This is why INFIDELS are pissed.
We keep hearing about them.
BUT, WE NEVER HEAR THEM SPEAK OUT RE: Honor killings, Child abuse, Discrimination & Persecution, and all the other assorted perversions in the name of pure worship.
Could it be they're Islamophobes?
Afraid of that Islam & Shariah will punish them for speaking their minds & Quesionting the words of the Quran, or motives of the religious leaders.
-ABDULLAH MIKAIL said - Not really. It is that those are not sanctioned in or approved by Islam. Period.
If I bring up something totally alien to Democratic values and our culture here, say extraordinary Rendition of people to secret prisons to be tortured, should I get up on my soap box and scream and yell because you guys aren't opening up a blog to target and attack that evil uncivilized, savage, and undemocratic activity?
No. I am intelligent enough to know no one approves of it, it is not a part of our ideals, it is not something we sanction...
Otherwise it wouldn't be "Extraordinary Rendition" and it wouldn't be "Secret Prisons" and it wouldn't be for the purpose of hiding the fact that the CIA kidnaps, tortures, and kills people with no due process under the protection of the law.
And the fact that some radical Americans approve of this practice is only indicative of a sickness in the hearts of some... I would not call that person an American as much as I would an enemy of freedom.
Something like that...
-YANKEL told AM - Congratulations to the CIA for wiping out that scumbag Mehsud the Meshugganah. No due process necessary, no vetting of the facts, no rendition, no secret prison, no judge and no jury -- JUST DROP DA BOMB!!!!!
Subhuman jihadi scum should not benefit from Western law!
...and too bad the widdle wuzlim troll doesn't like it!!
Have a Happy Friday,
-EASTVIEW to IPSOFACTO - Nice analysis, ipsofacto, fully in accord with the advice of Sun Tzu to "Know your enemy."
-IPSOFACTO to EASTVIEW - Thank you Eastview. In our time many have forgot the Art of War:
"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle."
What interested me most was if the classical Western concept of moderation - Aristoteles´ "The Golden Mean" - ever influenced Islamic thinkers or theologians.
In the Eudemian Ethics, Aristotle writes on the virtues. His constant phrase is, "… is the Middle state between …". His psychology of the soul and its virtues is based on the golden mean between the extremes. In the Politics, Aristotle criticizes the Spartan Polity by critiquing the disproportionate elements of the constitution; e.g., they trained the men and not the women, and they trained for war but not peace. This disharmony produced difficulties which he elaborates on in his work.
Confucius who formulated the Golden Rule say in the Analects that excess is similar to deficiency. A way of living in the mean is the way of Zhongyong.
Also the Jewish philosopher Maimonides (1135-1204) was influenced by the Aristolian ethics:
" If a man finds that his nature tends or is disposed to one of these extremes..., he should turn back and improve, so as to walk in the way of good people, which is the right way. The right way is the mean in each group of dispositions common to humanity; namely, that disposition which is equally distant from the two extremes in its class, not being nearer to the one than to the other."
Jacques Maritain, throughout his Introduction to Philosophy, uses the idea of the golden mean to place Aristotelian-Thomist philosophy between the deficiencies and extremes of other philosophers and systems.
The Golden rule was adopted in Judaism and Christianity but not in Islam. That´s why I find it interesting that some modern Muslims seems to be rejecting extremism and have found some justification in the Holy Scriptures for this moral principle.
PULSAR said - btw ...I love the drones....possibly the best things your tax dollars have ever purchased....and the spy network embedded in the Muslim camps is paying big dividends...apparently a lot of Muslims are not happy with violent Islam....and Islam is violent....and they know it...
DOG WITHOUT SLIPPERS said - WE NEED MORE KILLER DRONES!~
EASTVIEW said - The MQ-2 Predator drones are one of those game-changer technologies, like precision guided munitions, the West keeps coming up with from time to time.
This is only the beginning.
First, as pointed out above by ebonystone, one will see the fine tuning of the size of the ordinance to fit the sizes of the targets.
No need to use a $2M Hellfire missile to kill a jeep when a smaller kind of ordinance will do the job. Then there are even newer successors to the Predator drones, such as the MQ-9 Reapers, that will be coming on line soon. It just keeps getting better and better.
Sorry about Meshud's mental anguish, Yom.
But I'm sure the 72 virgins he was just introduced to will help soothe what's left of his unsettled mind.
SAXONLANDS - (quoting) "No need to use a $2M Hellfire missile"
Its not 2M. Base cost is $25K, up to $65K for the AGM-114K with ancillary components.
ISABELLA THE CRUSADER said - "Trash taken out.
Very sad."
END of record of original comments for this article - dda.