Another demonstration of the urgent need for energy independence -- as much as possible, as soon as possible. Imagine the moral compromises and foreign policy blunders that would not be up for discussion without the economic blackmail made possible by the current global demand for oil and gas.
"What Role Did Oil Play in the Decision to Release Lockerbie Bomber?" by Vivienne Walt for Time, August 22 (thanks to all who sent this in):
Was it an oil deal? Convicted Lockerbie bomber Abdel Basset Ali al-Megrahi flew home from a Scottish prison on Thursday, freed by the Scottish government on compassionate grounds because doctors say Megrahi's cancer will kill him within three months. But was that the real reason? Could Britain have traded Megrahi in return for lucrative deals with the energy-rich North African nation?
British officials strongly deny any such arrangement with Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi. But on Friday, Libya watchers and oil analysts said they believed that the decision to free the only person convicted in the 1988 Pan Am Airlines bombing was connected to British investment interests. "It [Megrahi's release] was a matter of when, not if," says Molly Tarhuni, manager of the international security program at the London-based think tank Chatham House. "It's a very strong possibility" that a deal was struck, she says. "There are benefits to Britain having done it. This was the last in a long chain of deals."
That possibility is fueling a political row in London. Conservative Party leader David Cameron wrote to Prime Minister Gordon Brown Friday saying that "the public are entitled to know what you think of the decision to release Megrahi," which Cameron called "the product of some completely nonsensical thinking." Britain's Foreign Office ordered Buckingham Palace to reconsider a scheduled trade visit to Tripoli next month by Prince Andrew, according to the London Evening Standard. Much of the outrage was sparked by the jubilation in Libya after Megrahi's arrival. Foreign Secretary David Miliband told BBC Radio on Friday that "the sight of a mass murderer getting a hero's welcome in Tripoli is deeply upsetting."
And despite official British assertions that they had nothing to do with the decision, Gaddafi's son Seif al-Islam Gaddafi - his father's likely successor - said the British government was central to freeing Megrahi. "This is a courageous and unforgettable stance from the British and Scottish governments," Seif Gaddafi said in a statement published on the web site of the Gaddafi Development Foundation, which he heads. He also thanked "our friends in the U.K. government who had an important role to play to reach this happy end."
Megrahi was freed after serving only eight years of a life sentence for 270 counts of murder. U.S. officials had pleaded with Britain and Scottish officials in recent weeks to block his release, and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said on Thursday that she was bitterly disappointed that he had been freed. There was also strong criticism from family members of some of the victims; 259 passengers were killed when a bomb exploded mid-air aboard the doomed aircraft over Lockerbie, Scotland, and 11 others who were on the ground died from falling debris.
Some oil analysts and Libya watchers on Friday said they suspected that British officials had tacitly made it known to Libyan officials that they would not object to Scotland releasing Megrahi - even if they stopped short of reassuring Libya that he would be freed. Scotland's Justice Minister Kenny MacAskill insists he made the decision alone, after meeting with Clinton and U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder, and holding a video conference with U.S. relatives. But the BBC reported last week that British business minister Peter Mandelson had held a brief conversation earlier this month with Seif Gaddafi, when the two men met on the Greek island of Corfu, where they were both vacationing. Mandelson's staff said the politician made no assurance of Megrahi's release. Still, says Mohammed-Ali Zainy, senior economist at the Center for Global Energy Studies in London, "There can be no dispute that this strengthens the relationship between Britain and Libya."
Libya sits atop massive energy reserves, much of which have languished through decades of sanctions. The British oil company BP last year estimated Libya's proven reserves at about 41.5 billion barrels of high-grade oil, and about 1.49 trillion cubic meters of natural gas, which makes it the 10th biggest oil and gas reserves in the world....
This comes as no surprise at all. Britain is at the forefront of playing dependable dhimmi and appeasing the jihad in any way possible. Though, this seems one of the few times that they might actually receive some compensation for all their groveling.
Meanwhile, Diana West and Martin Kramer have been following Yale University's own appeasement of the jihad in order to receive Arab money:
http://townhall.com/columnists/DianaWest/2009/08/20/yale_economics_101_crush_cartoons,_get_sharia-backed_gold
http://sandbox.blog-city.com/some_day_yales_prince_will_come.htm
One expects the powers that be in any democracy will distance themselves from the ordinary folks. Elites function that way and, as Arisotle shrewdly observed, most every government is, in effect, an oligarchy, but the release of this mass murderer by British (Scottish) authorities flies so much in the face of what the ordinary Brit would want that it signals in microcosm just how out of touch the British government is with the people over whom it rules. Time for changes. Big changes. In the judiciary. In Parliament. At many municipal levels. In the BBC. All across the board. If this doesn't occur then the Brits themselves will indeed have the wretched government and insufferable elites they deserve. Countin' on you Brits or else you are henceforth, without doubt, no longer the people you once were.
NO OIL FOR BLOOD!
Leftist BBC’s Radio “World Have Your Say” yesterday’s panel convincingly played out the argument that the Abdel Basset Ali al-Megrahi’s release has no real affect to BP’s relationship with the Khadafy Dictatorship, as there has already been many years to the business partnership built up. Having said that, after only serving 3 weeks for every person who died as a result of the bombing, this little show relativistic good faith has been reviled by all with common sense in the west and only gives strength the Jihadist cause who see us as weak fools.
Upset with the hero’s welcome by security breaching throngs on the tarmac of Tripoli’s airstrip, are western leaders truly surprised? Have they forgotten the dancing muslim revelers in the streets of Dar al-Islam after 9/11?
Seif Gaddafi thanked "our friends in the U.K. government who had an important role to play to reach this happy end."
Duplicitous scum. You will reap your reward.
/QUOTE Upset with the hero’s welcome by security breaching throngs on the tarmac of Tripoli’s airstrip, are western leaders truly surprised? Have they forgotten the dancing muslim revelers in the streets of Dar al-Islam after 9/11?
Posted by: Kaffir_Kanuck [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 22, 2009 9:05 /QUOTE
They forgot the moment they blinked.
Seif Gaddafi thanked "our friends in the U.K. government who had an important role to play to reach this happy end."
A fitting happy end would be to see "our friends in the U.K. government" dangling in a Newgate Garland. Releasing Megrahi is an act of high treason
I would like to be around when the Muslim oil wells finally run dry...but I won't...but it would be a cause for celebration..and maybe liberation from the curse of Islam...
This story grows more disgusting by the minute.
Hey Pulsar182,
With the way petrodollars are being used to buy up swathes of Western infrasrtucture you probably DON'T want to see what happens when they lose their oil leverage.
One group of evil bastards coming to terms and reconciliation with another group of evil bastards....May they all get boned by the devil himself for all eternity!
What the hell happened to those brave men of my (in part) heritage?!?!? They've become, or at least elected those who are, a bunch of greedy, corrupt, pantiwaiste peckerwoods!
GOD help us all!
The Church in my old village in England is 1,000 years old. I was baptised there many years ago and sang in the Choir. It is a beautiful old English Church. There is even a board with the name of every priest that have served the church in the last 1,000 years. Quiet a few years ago a local couple got married there. They left the reception to go on there Honeymoon, a couple of weeks later the community buried them in the churchyard of the Church they had been married in just a few days earlier. They never got farther than Lockerbie, on lifes adventure. Now I have got nothing against showing compassion, but I don't see why I should show compassion, too a mass murderer who had no compassion, and in the pay of a Megalomaniac islamist. It is insulting to all the Families and communities on both sides of the pond who lost loved ones. Send him back by all means, but only when he is dead and and with a stake through his heart. As for my Government they are beyond redemption, and like many more True Brits I have a simmering contempt for them.
http://washingtontimes.com/news/2009/aug/21/obama-offers-wishes-muslim-holiday/?feat=home_headlines
What a dick!
Oil for dead meat?
Sounds like a better deal than the mass murderer Saddam Hussein got with the Oil-for-Food Programme.
Everything is possible so why not?
They placate to the mudslimes within society, up to and including banning a radio talk show host so as to avoid being seen as focusing on those who would subjugate them.
Then they release a convicted terrorist instead of shooting him in the head and wrapping his carcass in pig skin and dropping him out a bomber door at 30 thousand feet!
Now, to complete the mudslime fascist takeover...
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/cartoons/6059421/Worlds-first-Muslim-superheroes-the-99-are-headed-for-British-television-screens.html
Please lock these people up, in straight jacket, in little padded rooms with nothing but "they're coming to take me away" and "Fish heads" playing in the background!
Off topic, sorry, but I just pulled this up - NO surprises:
http://washingtontimes.com/news/2009/aug/21/iranian-defense-minister-terrorist/?feat=home_headlines
When you deal with scum to get your oil, you begin to act like them. I can't justify trading his life for oil when he had so much blood on his hands no matter how much the need the oil. Why is the gov't so surprised by the hero's welcome he got? Considering how the Islamists in Britain responded to their solders coming home. I'd say response in Tripoli was normal. Just look at the reaction in Dar al-Islam to any terrorist attack. This is a real coup for "My,I'm err good'n daffy".
If as many Europeans hwo are now getting hysterical about a possible "oil for dead meat" deal knew about the despecable deal the Union made with the Arabs in 1973, when the Oil Jihad was first used, and reacted politically then project Eurabia could possibly be derailed.
There is of course a political reason why this Libyan agent was not handed over to the Americans so they could have "killed him slowly 270 times" to satisfy the mobs lust for revenge. That would have solved a lot of problems so the reasons have to be very good.
We will probably never uncover the truth about what is behind this deal so the best we anti-Jihadis can do is to spin it to our advantage.
I propose we spin it all the way back to 1973 in order to discredit former and present political leaders and make a real change to the present DC dhimmitude politics of submission to Islam.
I find it increasingly frightening that we in the west are taking the dhimmi position. All day I read of the exploits of Islam, killing people. And, slowly but surely I see England, France, Holland, Sweden, sinking into acceptance of atrocities.
The bastards can't excoriate Israel enough. Now they acquiesce in murder on the grounds of compassion...
Soon they will begin burning books.... and then Jews...and then...well...then Europe will be no more....
And then what...your English cathedrals converted to mosques...your bangers and peas converted or made halal...your daughters raped and killed....your citizens second class...to a bunch of paki butchers......
And then what... whose left..Europe..like the 80 million dead Hindus...will simply be another land in the ummah... Judenrein..of course....
You must be all rejoicing... with nary a brain or an idea or a fear among you... giving up...but...many of you did that with the Nazi's...didn't you
Al-Megrahi served, what--nine years? Killers often get that long a sentence for panicking and shooting the clerk during a robbery at a 7-11.
The idea that this is any sort of reasonable term for premeditated mass murder and terrorism is grotesque.
If this was a "compassionate release"--probably also meant to 'win hearts and minds on the Arab street', then it is an act of extreme foolishness.
If it is part of a oil deal, it becomes something much worse--a cynical betrayal of justice, and an act of treason to all that the West should value.
Folks..the Scottish Enlightement is dead. It died yesterday....The Scotland that we all loved...died with the betrayal of justice. And for what...so haggis will now be declared as halal by some grand poobah in Mecca.
Scotland will now go down as yet another perfidious betrayer...
Say not alone, perfidious Albion
Nor with sorrow wait for north
The Scotland you love, that knowledge birthed
To a new infamy has now marched forth...
Scotland, rocky outcrops of liberty
Now another name for perfidy
If this was a "compassionate release"--probably also meant to 'win hearts and minds on the Arab street', then it is an act of extreme foolishness.
I agree, gravenimage. When we act as a compassionate or caring society to the ummah we are viewed as weak, nothing more.
The sooner we treat islam as the infection it is the better.
Folks..the Scottish Enlightement is dead. It died yesterday....The Scotland that we all loved...died with the betrayal of justice. And for what...so haggis will now be declared as halal by some grand poobah in Mecca.
Scotland will now go down as yet another perfidious betrayer...
Say not alone, perfidious Albion
Nor with sorrow wait for north
The Scotland you love, that knowledge birthed
To a new infamy has now marched forth...
Scotland, rocky outcrops of liberty
Now another name for perfidy
On the same day the man convicted of the Lockerbie bombing was due to be released, I read the following news item.
Libya deals with illegal immigration by executing the illegal immigrants, 200 Nigerians to be executed in cold blood.
http://odili.net/news/source/2009/aug/8/303.html
Tells you something about what kind of country Libya is doesn’t it?
And it tells you something about the cowardice and incompetence of the media who fail to report such things.
Another point, slightly OT about the indigenous population of Palestine, before the Zionist movement.
Has anyone read this book incidentally?
"There is not a solitary village throughout its whole extent (valley of Jezreel, Galilea); not for thirty miles in either direction... One may ride ten miles hereabouts and not see ten human beings. For the sort of solitude to make one dreary, come to Galilee... Nazareth is forlorn... Jericho lies a mouldering ruin... Bethlehem and Bethany, in their poverty and humiliation... untenanted by any living creature.
- Mark Twain, "The Innocents Abroad",
1867 -
Now for the 64,000 dollar question: Does he actually have cancer or did they invent that to have an excuse to release him.
Slowly but surely, whenever I hear a British accent, I want more and more to vomit.
What a disappointing country Puny Britain has become.
Good God, this "Ipso Facto" character is transmogrifying in a particularly grotesque manner these days.
Do you think he really has prostate cancer...or is this just an excuse...
Anyone want to lay odds that this mass murderer will be lionized in Libya like Sami Kuntar is lionized in Lebanon and Syria...
To hell with them all..western civilization is crumbling...and we're just watching the end...
Damned fools..all of us
Right, if you guys can stop Brit bashing for one minute?
I am sorry that it has got to the point that even our accents 'sicken you' but trust me our American 'friends' we aren't too happy about the present situation either. Our governments PARTICULARLY the Scottish one do not represent the ideas of the people - please try to remember that.
We are sickened by this shit just as much as you. I despise our weak lefty dhimmi government FAR more than you ever could. You can be absolutely certain of that.
You guys don't seem whiter than white though, I have seen footage of ragheads in your city streets stamping up and down on your flag, screaming for the death of your people, destruction of your state too. What did your people do? Walked right past as if it wasn't happening. Do I come on forums blasting off about your accents making me sick? The way you are going, you need to look at what's happening here very closely, it'll be you in a few years. WE ARE IN THE SAME BOAT, the last thing the good ones amongst us need on top of this national disgrace is you, supposedly a friend sticking the boot in kicking us in our darkest moments.
We are waking up, it's hard in this country for a number of reasons, I posted some here, near the bottom. http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/027263.php
We are waking though, in spite of our pathetic dhimmi disgrace of a government and we are beginning to show our teeth, this will grow.
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/226/226178_thugs_in_mosque_attack.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1198003/Far-Right-extremists-plotting-spectacular-terrorist-attack-UK-police-warn.html
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/british-police-foils-plan-to-attack-uk-mosques/485692/
We are rising, slowly but it is happening. Don't write us off just yet and don't look at that Scottish muslim appeasing idiot that is currently grinding our country under the heel of his dhimmi boot and think he is all we are.
This travesty of justice illustrates quite forcefully why every civilized country should have the death penalty. I would vigorously argue that not having the death penalty for convicted heinous murderers is evidence of moral timidity masquerading as compassion. It's a gutless choice. And one has to be very clear as to why the death penalty should exist. In the law there are only four reasons why one is punished. As long as even one of these reasons is satisfied, that is enough. These four reasons are 1) retribution (not to be confused with revenge which many uninformed people sloppily do); 2) restraint; 3) deterrence (both specific and general) and 4) rehabilitation (not applicable of course for those to be executed).
Now, many claim that the death penalty doesn't deter crime. The truth is that it deters some but not others, so it's a false, wasteful argument. Actually, since it does deter many, not having the death penalty insures that innocent people in the future will be killed by a previously convicted murderer who would not kill again had he himself already been executed. The irony here of course is that those most opposed to the death penalty are in fact instrumental in the deaths of future innocent human beings.
But even assuming the death penalty doesn't deter anyone (an argument I personally find absurd), it still satisfies two other reasons why it should be utilized for the most egregious of crimes. When one puts a murderer to death, especially a mass murderer like this animal whom Scottish authorities cravenly and stupidly released, that serves as an ultimate restraint on that person ever killing again. It also serves the purpose of retribution. Society has the right to exact a price for violating its norms. When those norms go to the matter of the preservation of life itself, ultimate retribution should be the order of the day.
Quite frankly, I have little patience with those who think the death penalty is barbaric. It is not. It is justified and not having it is in no way an indication of enlightened thought.
Lets hope for succes at the global climate summit in december in Copenhagen. It's impossible to predict exactly how our carbon emissions will affect the Earths climate in the future. But regardless of that, we should still get away from fossil fuels as quickly as possible for strategic reasons.
To me it's a simple as this;
Oil & Gas economy = Dhimmi servitude economy
Green economy = Independent Anti-Dhimmi economy
CriticalEndGame--
Of course, my accent comment is based on how highly I regarded Britain once, and hope to again one day. For countries like Libya, no one expects anything but the worst. And yes, those politician and bureaucrats allowing Islamists to ruin the USA also make me sick. I wish them all to be hanging by their toes like Mussolini at the end of WWII.
Far from being polite myself..I stand with feet of clay when it comes to off the hip remarks. Our Brit friends are just as responsible for the left direction of their government and it's outrageous decisions as we Americans are for ours. They are just a few more years down the road than we are but we are going in the same damn direction. I see no point in making pointless, tasteless remarks about someone's accent. WTF has that to do with anything? Both countries are only useful to each other now than serving as mutual bad examples.
Getting off oil will not relieve us of our dhimmi pre-disposition. Anyone thinking so, has in store, disappointment and bewilderment. Oil is only one of the weapons that the mohammedans have used against us. Remember your history. The west was serving the mohammedan masters before there was oil. Those extortionists found ways to get at us long before the days of oil. And their deftness made it seem like a natural occupation. Do you want to remember? Well, ask yourself. How about hostage taking? How about offensive warfare against us? How about piracy against us? How about obstructing free trade with blockades, with harrassment, with intimidation? How about pillaging? Sounds familiar? You may remember, those were our ancestors' plight. That will be our future, if we continue to be weak-willed.
" Pismopal has spoken..let it be written..let it be done."
I always wanted to say that line..I think it was a line from Yul Brynner in the, "King and I."
Wellington,
Quite frankly, I have little patience with those who think the death penalty is barbaric. It is not. It is justified and not having it is in no way an indication of enlightened thought.
Yeeahh, people who are against the death penalty should be executed. ;-)
On this matter you are in agreement with Sharia law and that makes it easier to have the barbaric Islamic law introduced in America in the future.
Apart from the Muslim world and other barbaric fascist regimes such as China the Americans are the most revengeful and unforgiving people on this planet.
CriticalEndGame:
Brit bashing? There was ONE general comment. Everyone else was speaking about the actions of the British (or Scottish) government. Aren't we allowed to criticize their actions?
Did you read Wellington's first comment? He was saying it is up to the British people to do something here, and so it is.
You say you're rising slowly but it is happening. The problem is that time isn't on your side or ours. If we don't get off our behinds and do something about our respective governments we won't have anything to complain about because it will all be gone and, most likely, so will we.
Scottish citizens were killed in this bombing. Where were their families when this murderer was released? What about the people of Lockerbie?
The biggest problem the west has is that we are civilised. Ordinarily this would be a good thing but in the case of dealing with a backwards barbaric beast like islam it is our biggest failing. Our problem lies in the fact that they are ideologically stuck in the barbarism of 700AD, but they have at their disposal the force and capability of a first world power.
They are also unafraid to die and most importantly unconcerned with killing their own, in fact they delight in it. Savagely torturing and murdering their own daughters for "honour" and gleefully sending their sons on suicide missions.
Quite how this obviously primitive ideology got out of Saudi Arabia I have no idea. Oh, hang on, yeah, we invented the internal combustion engine didn't we?
ANY country that has allowed muslim immigration has made a grave error in judgement, it is akin to hiring a convicted child killer to babysit your children. It is the way we now deal with the problem we have invited in that is key.
Europe in general is useful in this respect as a perfect example of what not to do under any circumstances! Sweden will be the first to go 100% down the shitpan as it is projected that they will have a muslim majority in as little as 30 years. Malmo already has a 25% concentration and that 25% is making life intolerable for everyone else. Some areas of Britain are in similar trouble, Luton for example. As much as some of you appear to delight in ripping us to bits I do not want to see the US fall into the same pit, but you most certainly will if you remain on the path you are currently on.
The west, particularly Europe was irreparably damaged by the Nazis in WW2, we quite rightly fought them for our freedom but it left us with a terrible legacy. The right wing has forever since been associated with the holocaust, this has given the far left all the ammunition it needs to poison the west and leave it so pathetically open to what is currently happening. ONLY the right can save us (no I am NOT talking jackbooted anti-Semitic scum)I am talking about reasonable national pride, not murderous fascist regimes. Unfortunately in these dark times you cannot even openly talk about defending your country against a marauding, murderous, FASCIST threat because as you can see, the left has it on a pedestal and is treating it like a thing to be protected at all costs against "the white fascists".
Like a cuddly pet kitten being horribly abused in society by neo-Nazi skinhead oppressors because it is a helpless dark-skinned asylum-seeking minority. It matters not how many tirades of hate and murder spill openly from its disgusting mouth, bombs that kitten detonates on our underground, or how many planes it slams into buildings full to the brim of our mothers wives and daughters because it wasn't that kitten doing what comes naturally to its perverse little brainwashed mind. No it's evil littermates have somehow perverted what is written on the back of the cat crunchies box and "hijacked" a peaceful ideal.
The far left has allied itself, it is no longer "standing up for the rights of minorities" but it has actively allied itself against its country with an invading, lethal foreign right wing ideology. We saw it in action on our streets this month. Right wing islamists fighting alongside left wing morons (if you are feeling generous, traitors if not) attacked a peaceful protest by the 'English Defence League'. They assaulted (in a group, obviously) an old man, ripping the flag from his hands and beating the shit out of him on the deck and half-killed some poor lad (amongst others) that wasn't even involved because he had the 'misfortune, of being born white. He was just trying to get home, it's all even on film for gods sake, what more proof do we need? Funnily enough that film doesn't get onto the news though, strange that isn't it? You'd almost think our pathetic government was allowing this to happen.
That's one of the hardest things to stomach, there are myriad "no-go areas" for white people, in ENGLAND! This is coming from someone that actually thinks (non-islamic) immigration is a good thing, god knows what the far right make of it.
To defeat islam in our countries we first need, no absolutely positively HAVE to totally defeat the far left. We stand no chance otherwise, we also have to stop the enemy writing in our newspapers, the general populace is usually stupid enough to believe newspapers.
I fear a huge civil war in counties all over the west on a scale that is hardly imaginable, we will not just be fighting an invading menace that the governments have so wisely afforded passports and enhanced civil rights to, we will also be shedding the blood of our own brothers and our uncles and...I shudder to think.
The problem is 4th generation warfare, Islam has embraced it and is using it to great effect whilst our 'enlightened' governments are still trying to work out what it is, and then if it even exists at all. This is going to be a war with our streets being defended by civilians against the enemy, their own kind and their own pathetic, unfit for purpose governments. Yes America, unfortunately that means yours too, although yours is nowhere near as bad as ours...yet.
If I wasn't so angry I'd emigrate in disgust, but that would just make me as bad as them. So I'll stay and I'll fight, as will my sons and theirs if necessary.
I love my country so much I cannot put it into words but I despair at the mismanagement that has led it from once being Great Britain to this. I despise our government with every fibre of my being. I have never really felt that passionate about anything in my entire life but I will die fighting this menace that has invaded my land, and I will do everything in my power to ensure this idea spreads.
Sorry you had to read this, I needed to get it off my chest before I had a heart attack.
Now I am going to start spreading the word, preaching to those that are not already converted. I will of course tone down the words, nobody listens to an angry white voice in Britain anymore.
Either that, or tie an elastic band round my nuts, throw a tent with a slot cur in it over my head and protest loudly to Downing Street about the diminishing rights of the native population, would that do any good do you think?
"Apart from the Muslim world and other barbaric fascist regimes such as China the Americans are the most revengeful and unforgiving people on this planet."
Ipso Facto,
Jeepers! You make it sound like revenge is a bad thing...
"CriticalEndGame:
Brit bashing? There was ONE general comment. Everyone else was speaking about the actions of the British (or Scottish) government. Aren't we allowed to criticize their actions?"
You are right PMK, I am just incensed at the general flak we are getting from all angles.
We DO deserve it, I know that full well but as an English patriot who hates his Government but loves his country it's sometimes hard to take.
it's especially hard as I find myself agreeing with so much of it and I don't know whether to cry from a patriotic point of view, write and protest about the situation only to be ignored by my dhimmi government or to just go out and spill blood.
Blood for oil takes on a whole new meaning..........
Ipso Facto: You are losing it. Hesperado is correct. First of all, how in the name of anything did you conclude that I would ever think that those who are against the death penalty for convicted, first-degree murderers should themselves be executed (your ill-chosen words, not mine)? This is simply imbecilic, unsupported hyberbole. I completely support your right to be against the death penalty without requiring it for you (or any punishment for that matter). Over the top, nonsensical statements deserve no respect and are evidence of desperation, not cognitive strength . People have a right to be wrong in free societies without lethal repercussions. I support your right here totally, though I disagree with it vehemently.
You also make a huge error of false analogy by assuming that just because one would agree with ANYTHING that Sharia puts forward, therefore one agrees with Sharia. The paucity of logical thinking here is so evident that I should not have to say anymore on this subject. It should be obvious even to you. But just for the record, I despise Sharia and think it a barbarous legal system.
Thirdly, you have revealed yourself, perhaps unwittingly, as an American hater. The Americans are not only not a revengeful people, they are actually the most generous and noble people on the planet. Imagine the world over the last hundred years with one difference-------no America. Do you really think it would be a better world today? America, as Mark Steyn has observed, is the final guarantee that rogues and tyrants will not rule the earth. Your animosity towards America conveys a profound ignorance of this sage assessment.
Finally, I will put it to you that not only is not having the death penalty an ill-considered position, I would contend that it is immoral not to have it. Some people deserve to die. You know this or should know it. Thinking otherwise is evidence of moral confusion, jejune compassion and intellectual bankruptcy.
I notice too that you did not address my contention that not executing convicted murderers actually insures that some of them will kill innocent people again. Shame on you for this intellectual shallowness and avoidance. Done here except to aver that being against the death penalty in all cases does not make one an enlightened human being. Quite the contrary in fact.
CriticalEndGame - I posted a reply with encouraging words, to your original posting that you linked above.
Go for it, mate!
J R R Tolkien foresaw this- see chapter 8 "The Scouring of the Shire", in Lord of the Rings, Vol III, Return of the King.
C S Lewis foresaw this, but I hope he wasn't entirely correct - see his novel for children, 'The Last Battle', all the stuff about the evil Calormene infiltration and subversion of Narnia - he even foresaw the whole interfaith snake-oil business, with the merging of the Narnian Lion Aslan (who represents the Lion of Judah), with the Arab-like Muslim-like Calormenes' rapacious demon-god Tash, to create 'Tashlan'.
G K Chesterton foresaw this - see his novel 'The Flying Inn'.
Chesterton, in 'The Flying Inn', wrote the poem for you:
"Who Goes Home?'
In the city set upon slime and loam
they say in their Parliament - 'who goes home?'
And there comes no answer in arch or dome
for none in the city of graves goes home,
yet these shall perish and understand,
for God has pity on this great land.
'Men that are men again: Who goes home?
Tocsin and trumpeter? Who goes home?
For there's blood on the field and blood on the foam
and blood on the body when Man goes home.
And a voice valedictory ...Who is for Victory?
Who is for Liberty? Who goes home?"
'Who is for Victory? Who is for Liberty?'
Every man jack in the House of Commons and in the House of Lords - except of course for the Muslim fifth columnists - needs to be confronted, face to face, with Chesterton's two questions.
Read the long post of CriticalEndGame above.
Apart from the Muslim world and other barbaric fascist regimes such as China the Americans are the most revengeful and unforgiving people on this planet.
.....................
I'm sorry, Ipso Facto--this is just crap.
America ran the Marshall Plan in Europe and rebuilding in Japan--there was no mass revenge against the German or Japanese people--on the contrary--we funneled large amounts of money and energy into this process.
Whatever one thinks of our efforts in Afghanistan and Iraq, these wars have been marked more by our trying to build roads and schools than by persuing Jihadists.
Whenever there is a natural disaster anywhere in the world, Americans are some of the first on the scene with rescues and humanitarian aid, even if the country's regime is no friend to the US.
In addition, Americans are the most generous people in the world when it comes to charitable giving, especially with well-known disasters such as the Asian Tsunami.
I have a close relative who has been in and out of prison for some pretty ugly crimes--and he has been offered courses, classes, programs, and rehab on numerous occasions--more, probably, than he deserves.
This country is hardly perfect. But the assertion that we are among the most vengeful people on earth is demonstrably ludicrous.
"ONLY the right can save us (no I am NOT talking jackbooted anti-Semitic scum)..."
I am talking jackbooted scum who are not anti-Semitic: if none can be found, Europe is in for another Dark Ages.
Anti-Americanism is not just a superficial opinion that can be successfully counter-argued with common sense and facts: it is a disease like anti-Semitism and racism, with a torturously complex paradigm at its disposal, reinforced with psychologically entrenched fanaticism. I.e., it is no use appealing to Ipso Facto's mind.
Wellington:
Actually you are the one loosing it. It should be obvious to anybody with half a brain that my comments about the death penalty and the US barbary and Sharia was sarcastical and polemical. To make sure everybody understood this I used this smiley: ;-)
I do not hate America but I am critical about a number of aspect of the American way of life. On the other hand there is much to admire and be grateful for especially as an European. I am much more critical about the European Union and often point out its semi-democratic nature lacking the checks and balances in the US system. The only way to improve morally is to be critical about everything not least the norms and traditions in our native country. To me the phrase: “My country,right or wrong.” sounds similar to the blind acceptance and submission in Islam. I admire the reply Carl Schurz (1829-1906) gave:
“The Senator from Wisconsin cannot frighten me by exclaiming, “My country,right or wrong.” In one sense I say so too. My country; and my country is the great American Republic. My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.”
My comment was also a provocation because I think a serious discussion about the compatability of democratic values and the death penalty is needed and could be beneficial for everyone on this debate. Not least with you as a worthy, honest and knowledgeable opponent.
So please put foreard your main arguments and moral justification for the death penalty then I will do the same in regard to my opposite position.
I am prepared to change my position if your arguments are logically consistent and compelling. I hope you will show me the same courtesy?
Abscedere:
"Apart from the Muslim world and other barbaric fascist regimes such as China the Americans are the most revengeful and unforgiving people on this planet."
Ipso Facto,
Jeepers! You make it sound like revenge is a bad thing..."
Yes I do! If you are in doubt look at the Muslim world!
gravenimage:
"This country is hardly perfect. But the assertion that we are among the most vengeful people on earth is demonstrably ludicrous."
I agree with your examples praising American generosity and help to those in need.
I am focusing on the dark sides of US traditions where much is far from perfect.
Se my reply to Wellington for clarification.
The frustrating part about this is how Scotland’s Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill justifies his unjustifiable decision with an air of superiority. Where does his compassion end? Would he have freed Pol Pot? Hitler? From what I have been hearing it doesn't sound as though the majority of Scots agree with his compassion for a convicted mass-murderer. And if this man was not guilty, as is now claimed, then the facts should have been brought out and the real killers punished.
This release is another in the many recent instances of government taking a high-handed approach with actions that go against the will of the people and fly in the face of common sense. Britain's Labour party is writing its own ticket to oblivion.
Ipso Facto: I already provided my reasons for why the death penalty should exist. Read my 1:27 P.M. post above. The death penatly is warranted because it is a form of ultimate restraint, ultimate retribution and it does deter many. Therefore, three of the four reasons for punishment are fulfilled. Not having it is neither a good idea nor evidence of moral superiority.
By the way, Carl Schurz was a German immigrant and a Senator from Missouri, not Wisconsin. He also served in President Hayes' cabinet as Secretary of the Interior and fought for the Union during the Civil War, for instance at the Second Battle of Bull Run. I am very familiar with that quote of his and have mentioned it many times in my many years of teaching. I heartily agree with it. No one does America any good by thinking America can do no harm, but I would suggest you try and provoke an honest debate next time without referring to my fellow Americans as being a revengeful and unforgiving people. A new approach is needed because yours came across as way too scathing, bitter AND sincere. And now I will provide you a quote, one from an Englishman, Paul Johnson, who wrote this on the dedication page of his "A History of the American People": "This book is dedicated to the people of America----strong, outspoken, intense in their convictions, sometimes wrong-headed but always generous and brave, with a passion for justice no nation has ever matched." Just so.
Wellington,
The debate I proposed was not about the virtues or lack of same of the American people. It was solely if capital punishment can be ethically justified or not.
You do not seem particular interested in arguing your point of view or even read what I write.
I did not claim that Carl Schurz was from Wisconsin. The quote is his intelligent response to a senator from that state who used the phrase: "My country, right or wrong.”
If what you have written so far concludes your arguments for capital punishment I will put forward my arguments shortly.
Oil for food, oil for concessions, oil for sharia law, oil for justice, oil for freedom.
Its all now pretty much the same, now.
It amounts to what I have been commenting on for some time. The west capitulates to Islam for the need for oil.
At the head of the line are the oil and gas giants who have had to appease Islam since the creation of the Islamic states during the last century.
Once the colonial powers left primarily Islamic parts of the world, tribal and religous chieftans took over. All of them were Muslim leaders and saw jihad as a duty. Their descendants are pretty much of the same mindset.
Now the time has come for payback, and nothing will stop greed and the need for oil from aiding Islam in its conquest.
What a waste of life and a waste of the legacy of European history.
May the west prevail (in spite of itself).
Kufar and proud.
"The biggest problem the west has is that we are civilised."
Sorry, but I have heard that you have to fight like the enemy in order to win. We have yet to do that.
And never fight with a rabid dog, they don't play by the rules.
In this case, Islam plays by whatever rules are necessary in order to conquer.
That includes using our multicultural policies and freedom of religion and speech laws against us. Islam's followers cross boundaries that were never meant to be crossed and continue to do so, wherever honour killings and sharia laws are enacted.
May the west prevail.
Kufar and proud.
I'm virtually always prepared to argue my point of view. Provide yours if you please as to why capital punishment is wrong. By the way, I always like to ask this of someone who is against capital punishment: If you do not have capital punishment, what do you do with a prisoner who is in solitary confinement for the rest of his life and who then murders a prison guard? Remember, it only takes a second for a fiend to defy the most confining of circumstances to kill again. Yes, what then would you do with such a person? How much more could you punish him? What would be his incentive not to kill again?
Also, many new studies, one most recently out of the University of Chicago, shows that capital punishment does indeed deter many people. A polity that does not have capital punishment for one who has committed first-degree murder makes such a polity complicit in any further murders that that already convicted murderer might commit, whether in or out of prison. And, respecting general deterrence of others who might hesitate to kill precisely because they themselves know they will be executed, the polity is again culpable for deaths done by such individuals if no death penalty exists. This is part of the reason why I contend that not having capital punishment is actually immoral. I will in no way concede the high moral ground to those who are against capital punishment. Again, quite the contrary; I fault such people with pusillanimity worthy of total condemnation.
One more point about capital punishment: I would feel a lot more secure with a state that disallowed capital punishment if I knew that life in prison really meant *life in prison*--and not three weeks per victim as is the case with the Lockerbie bomber.
I think it is clear that some crimes are so heinous and some criminals so dangerous that the perpetrator should *never get out*--whether that means execution or life in prison without possibility of parole.