Spencer at the National Conservative Student Conference Friday

Re-posting, from my archives, what I managed to preserve of the original comments to this article/ video clip, that were made during the final weeks of the IntenseDebate era. Unfotunately, early in this particular thread, IntDeb kept replies, but obliterated a string of people's original postings to which the replies were made - I had read them when they first appeared, but hadn't made a copy straightway, so cannot restore those.

FLIPPINHECK {comment lost}

-BRIARS replied - Then why the BNP gains in the UK (electing two to the EU Parliament) and the perception that Wilders party could be the majority party in the Netherlands?

I don't think Fascist tactics will continue the tide of encouraging Muslim immigration but will eventually bring more people to the fold of stopping it.

Add to the fact that Muslim extremists are hard at work creating methods to inflict horrible loss of life on strategic targets that uphold Western values and you will add more to the fire of opposition. If this volatility isn't released through the established political mechanisms then they will be released through anarchy in the streets of Europe.

-FLIPPINHECK told BRIARS - What I was trying to point out is the fact that:

1) popular support for PVV, VB and SD will inevitably grow because of these detrimental immigration policies. There's no question about that. And when I refer to 'detrimental' I clearly refer to the maintained cynical policy of still giving Muslims first choice of immigrating, rather than choosing the sensible solution of providing genuinely persecuted people with the shelter they truly need.

2) In my mind there can be no doubt that our society will become heavily polarized (even more so than today) as long as PC/MC elites will not admit any wrongdoing and as long as they will keep this up to 'prove their point' with the mistaken concept that they can counter so-called fascism today. (and claim they are morally superior to go with it)

Both 1) and 2) are a given fact in my mind: the gap will widen. In the long run it will be us against Muslims. The PC/MC traitors will find themselves gradually at the sideline. And that is exactly what we are heading for.

As for the BNP in particular however, I am quite adamant that they are distinctly different from PVV, VB or SD.

I tend to believe they are proponents of integral nationalism rather than cultural nationalism with an emphasis on pluralism.

Geert Wilders has clearly distanced himself from a party that was eager to be seen cavorting with the likes of a so-called nationalist like Le Pen, who has been consistently sucking up to vehement anti-Judaic figureheads and heads of state in the Maghreb and the Middle East.

VB has done the same thing and can not be associated with such an attitude.

SD is not well-known in Europe as a whole and they lack profile on this issue, but from what I have read from Swedish sites and the analyses by Pamela Gellar, there is absolutely no evidence to suggest they are anti-Judaic.

While I don't really get the point you're making with reference to BNP, it is quite clear to me that Britons do not have an alternative like Geert Wilders to vote for, so they have to make do with what they've got.

Which in my mind doesn't make it right, but that's not for me to decide. That would be up to the British electorate.

"If this volatility isn't released through the established political mechanisms then they will be released through anarchy in the streets of Europe."

In fact, the final conclusion you draw from that is indeed true.

But again, I would say that the political elites of today are the main culprits in this context: their self-deluding policies have seriously curbed the powers of national security agencies to preserve civilized society. In fact, I agree with you: if not already politically polarized, our society risks being polarized by violence in the long run.

-GRAVENIMAGE said - Flippinheck, when I saw that your comment above had been deleted by the administrator, I was very surprised--when I saw that other respected posters--*including Hugh Fitzgerald*--had had their comments deleted, I knew something else was going on.

It seems that every "primary" posting has been deleted, and the comments have been left to stand. My guess is that this is yet another IntenseDebate glitch.

-VIRGIL said to FLIPPINHECK - I point a finger at all the self-hating white liberals and cultural Marxists and say you made all of this happen. You (the liberal-left) have destroyed our civilization and heritage and handed it over to barbarians. Like Esau, you sold out our birth right to the Islamic Jacob for some short term cheap labour. The only satisfaction that can be had here is that these anti-white, anti-Christian, and anti-Western liberal-left socialists and multiculturalists will be devoured by the very Islamic monster that they have unleashed upon the rest of Europe.

On an aside, I must disagree with Mr. Spencer that a nuclear Islamic France might be a threat to America. America will itself be Balkanised and reduced to third world status by our own unchecked mass immigration problem. While America may avoid much of the Islamic fate that will befall our European cousins, it will be left to be dominated by the future Fidel Castros and Hugo Chavezs (though the area around Dearborn, MI is a potential budding Islamic emirate, as are parts of Canada).

EBONYSTONE {posting was inadvertently deleted by IntDeb}

-PULSAR said - apparently a lot more than evidence....

BOSTONPATRIOT said [a posting commenting on Muslim demographics in Europe - lost by IntDeb glitch]
-PMK said - Americans made the same bet [that Muslims wd assimilate]. We're going to lose as well. Our last words will be: why do they hate us?

-BOSTONPATRIOT told PMK - You may be right, but I'm more optimistic about the US given the fact that hispanics share a good deal of our Judeo-Christian heritage, and although the problems that arise in regards to immigration may be big, I don't think they're insurmountable. Islam is, at its core, so alien to western civilization that I tend to think that Muslim populations are fairly unique in their inability to integrate into the West en masse.

-MRSJ said to BOSTONPATRIOT- "A rare few do choose Western values, but very often the descendants of those rare few return to the fold as extremists - Anjem Choudary is a good example. His father was a hard working market trader. The son preaches sedition and death while living on generous state handouts."

END of first part of my record of original comments for this thread.

Second part of my record of the original comments made on this thread - although all 'primary' comments mysteriously vanished due to an IntenseDebate glitch (and I had not copied them before their disappearance) the to-and-fro in the replies was sufficiently of interest, to warrant restoring that part of the discussion. There was a long exchange with an apologist for Islam, 'Gerbil Tea'.

HUGH (Hugh Fitzgerald) {posted a comment on European Muslim demographics, and also praising Geert Wilders; this was, alas, lost by IntDeb}

-GERBIL TEA said to Hugh - About Geert Wilders, I have to wonder something? How is it possible that on the one hand Robert (and perhaps you as well?) claim to be defenders of Western concepts like free speech but on the other hand you support Geert Wilders who has publicly called for the Qur'an to be banned? I'm sorry but we're talking about the world's second largest religion here not some cult like Oprahism or Voodoo. You can't just ban a major world religion and make it go away. Well, you CAN it just always turns out very badly, just ask Isabella.

It's perfectly fine with me that you think that Islam is barbaric, medieval and possibly evil. You can hold these opinions and still uphold the values of free speech by allowing people to purchase the Qur'an, read it and figure out for themselves if what you say is true. Censorship is certainly a value treasured by the fascists you seem to confuse Muslims with.

-ALERT said to GERBIL TEA - (quoting) "How is it possible that on the one hand Robert (and perhaps you as well?) claim to be defenders of Western concepts like free speech but on the other hand you support Geert Wilders who has publicly called for the Qur'an to be banned?"

Qur'an to be banned for same reason as Turner Diaies are banned, Einstine :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Turner_Diaries

-GERBILTEA said to ALERT - And is the Turner Diaries banned in the United States? Not to my knowledge, it looks like I can still purchase this sick work today from a variety of sources.

GERBILTEA posted a long comment, which was lost like all other 'primary comments' in this thread.

-BOSTON PATRIOT replied - Well, there is the fact that MILLIONS of Muslims do everything they can to leave Muslim countries and come and live in the countries of the Christian West, and virtually NO ONE in the west wants to go live in ANY of the 57 Muslim countries. So despite any spin or blame or apologetics, there is that reality.

But people have a great ability for denial and cognitive dissonance. The vast majority of Muslim immigrants are NOT going to admit that they wanted to move to the West because the values of Christianity created a better civilization than the values of Islam. Heck, most lefties in the West won't even admit that.

People throughout history have a great way of clinging to their worldview and values despite all real-world evidence that their worldview is toxic.

Certainly, the vast majority of Muslim extremists in the West don't even consider the very fact that they preferred to leave their Muslim countries and come live in the West as signifying anything---in fact, when quesitoned about this irony, all they'll do is blame the Jews and the West for causing all the problems of the Muslim world, and then this turns into further proof for them of Muslim victimhood and the moral superiority of Islam.

-GERBILTEA replied in turn - (quoting) "The vast majority of Muslim immigrants are NOT going to admit that they wanted to move to the West because the values of Christianity created a better civilization than the values of Islam."

I agree that the West is in better shape than most Muslim nations in terms of opportunity, social mobility, freedom of speech, stability and women's rights. Where we will have to disagree is that this is somehow a product of Christianity's influence.
Democracy certifiably was not created under the auspices of Abrahamic belief and for centuries the Bible itself was used to justify the subjugation of both women and slaves.
Power vested in the people (albeit the ruling men) is a Hellenic concept and predates the inception of Christianity by a longshot.

As to the Muslim world being backwards, I don't really think this is completely a result of Islam's influence.

There are other factors you should consider such as the borders of most of these nations being drawn by former colonial masters, ethnic strife existing in these borders, population depletion in some cases in Africa, lack of infrastructure and Western support for dictators.

All that being said I think there are problems with Islam as it is practiced today by many Muslims and I DO see a significant problem with the one sided interpretation given by the Salafi as a result of Saudi oil money.
What I would like for you and others here to talk about is the reality that Islam is NOT a monolithic faith
and there is a great deal of debate among scholars .

Change and acceptance of that which was not specifically mentioned as a religious matter is possible in Islam.

-CGEM said to GERBIL TEA - mohammedans are primitives. Bottom line.

-BOSTONPATRIOT replied to GERBILTEA - (quoting) "Slavery existed in almost all cultures since the dawn of time--including the Hellenic world."

It's was largely Christians like Wilberforce who led the anti-slavery movement in England, and they did so while specifically referring to Christian scripture, and in the end their exegesis of the Christian texts was accepted by the Christian world as accurate, while the slaveholders interpretation of Christianity supporting that position has been discarded by mainstream Christianity.

If you could point me to a non-Christian anti-slavery movement anywhere in the world that had as much impact as the 18th and 19th century Christian-led abolitionist movements, please do.

-BOSTONPATRIOT said to GERBILTEA - I think your continued insistance that "Islam is not a monolithic faith" is a bit of a straw man as I don't think anyone here is arguing that.

Similarly, Soviet communism was very different from Chinese communism, or North Korean or Cuban--so much so that they were often mortal enemies.

Still, words do mean something, and despite postmodern relativism, there are elements of belief and practice that are common to all, or else you couldn't call them communists---same thing with Islam.

I think it's just a simple debating trick, one I've often come across when debating Muslims on "Sharia".

When presented with any negatives, suddenly Sharia means "different things everywhere".

It's just disingenuous debating: of course if you can't really define something, then it's immune from criticism.

In contrast, I hold that all Muslims do share a large number of core beliefs, or else logically they would not be Muslims.

-BOSTONPATRIOT added, to GERBILTEA - (quoting GTEA) "As to the Muslim world being backwards, I don't really think this is completely a result of Islam's influence. There are other factors you should consider such as the borders of most of these nations being drawn by former colonial masters, ethnic strife existing in these borders, population depletion in some cases in Africa, lack of infrastructure and Western support for dictators."

And as I said earlier, of course that's the general Muslim response: the Muslim world is in the shape it's in largely because of the evil West and the Jews.

So we're to believe that Christianity had no serious postive influence on the West, and Islam had no serious negative influence on the Muslims world---it's just a big coincidence and a lot of other extraneous factors that caused things to turn out as they did. Hogwash.

-GERBILTEA said - Come again? What positive influence did Christianity have on Africa? At least half of the continent has Christian majority yet the same former colonial possessions are in the same shabby shape as their Muslim counterparts. Find for us the one truly stellar African nation that has come out of colonial rule with its feet on the ground?

I wouldn't say that Christianity had no positive influence or that Islam had no negative influence. It's nowhere near that simple.

-MUHAMMADBEAR replied to GTEA - The fair comparison would be the state that they were left in when the British and other nations left.

You can't blame the West for what has happened since.

In fact, the success was America and that was because it was far enough from Dar al-Islam not to be contaminated.

-EBONYSTONE said - (quoting GTEA) "Some of these European nations, most famously England and France, spent many years colonizing Islamic nations."

Actually, no. The only Islamic land that had noticeable colonial settlement was Algeria. Everywhere else, there was European rule, but precious little European settlement. Not in India, nor Pakistan, nor Arabia, nor the East Indies, nor the rest of West Africa.

-PULSAR said - "I see we are confusing the Muslims with facts..."

END of second part of my record of original comments for this thread.

Third part of record of original discussion - more argument with 'Gerbil Tea' the Muslim spin-doctor.

HUGH said {comment destroyed by IntenseDebate glitch}.

-GERBILTEA said to HUGH
Speaking as a former atheist, I came from a set of people who truly believed that ALL major world religions were cults actively engaged in brainwashing people into believing that their grand extortionist deity was lording over mankind.

The only trait you mentioned which is exceptional for Islam is the fact that the classical punishment for apostasy is death.

I'm sure that in some parts of the world you can find a scholar or lay believers who uphold this punishment.

Certainly the Christian believers have in the past executed those deemed heretical in belief, most notably the Cathars.
The only major exception is that the Islamic decree to execute those who change their Islamic religion comes from an authenticated hadith whereas the Catholic Church was acting on their medieval bloodlust.

The point should remain that this is NOT widely practiced and it DOES come from a hadith which is NOT the immutable word of Allah (subhana wa t'ala) and is therefore possibly wrong.
The line of oral transmission present for this hadith could have been wrong, it's a possibility. There is room for error. There is room for Muslims to reject this hadith on the basis that it contradicts the Qur'an.

As an anecdote, I am a Muslim living in America and I have known quite a few people who have left Islam. I suppose it may be a product of their being in a country where pluralism is valued, but none of them have been subject of harassment, assaults or homicides.
It's certainly true that people like Salman Rushdie and Ayaan Hirsi Ali have been targets for their apostasy. It's also certainly true that those who still live in Islamic nations and are converts to another faith experience discrimination, violence, rape and murder.

What I wonder though, is if you really believe that Islam is a monolithic belief system that simply can not see any kind of reform?
Do you really think it feasible to shrug it off as a dangerous cult while 1.1 billion people (or more) are Muslims and it may very well become the world's largest faith in our lifetime?

Back to Wilders, I do know that he backtracked on his commentary when he realized that his true feelings were not politically sound.
Any attempt by the government to censor or oppress (real or imagined) a faith is a huge mistake Hugh.
You're giving an Abrahamic religion the opportunity to make its believers martyrs which is exactly what they desire. If you try to drive it underground you will empower it.
Your best possible solution to support the values you think are superior and critique Islam as an atheist.

-BOSTON PATRIOT said to GERBILTEA - (quoting him) " The only trait you mentioned which is exceptional for Islam is the fact that the classical punishment for apostasy is death.......The point should remain that this is NOT widely practiced."

Okay, but to me, the salient question is:

is the death penalty for apostasy in the Muslim world rare because people are in an environment where the general public and authorities concede everyone's right to leave Islam,

or is it rare because the threat WORKS, and very, very few ever consider leaving Islam because of this?

No one denies that threats of violence and extreme punishment DO deter certain behaviors, but the question is do we really want to live in a system that holds that over people's heads.

-LAKEVIEWPAUL said to GERBILTEA - There can be little doubt that trying to ban the Koran would be silly and counterproductive. To try...and succeed...to ban the Koran and the people most likely to print it, to distribute it, to own it, and to read it will be Muslims.

Ban the Koran, and nonmuslims will be blind to the agenda. In fact, ban the Koran and the Hadith might just follow, too. What might happen next? The profitability of the trade would increase and with it the incentives to protect Islam from criticism.

Geert Wilders needs to be reasoned with until he relents.

HUGH FITZGERALD {made a further post - concerning apologists for Islam, such as John Esposito}

-GERBIL TEA replied - Putting words in my mouth Hugh? For shame. ;)

You're free to draw from whatever sources you like, I'm the one who is defending anyone's right to free speech here. It's not as if in any of my statements I ever claimed that you shouldn't be taking in both sides.

You certainly can not fault Esposito for taking funding from a Saudi royal when Jihadwatch.org is technically the baby of David Horowitz who is a staunch supporter of Israel. It's total hypocrisy to claim that you're somehow not receiving support from the opposite side in the conflict.

Unless you're also unwilling to deny that in the same way that Esposito doesn't deny his benefactor?

-HESPERADO said to GERBIL TEA - Being supported by Israel which is the only true democracy in the Middle East, is good;

being supported by Saudi Arabia, where they behead witches and don't let women drive cars in the 21st century, is bad.

-GERBIL TEA replied to HESPERADO - Masquerading as a true democracy you mean. Real democracies don't put your religion on your ID card, set up check points solely for one ethnic group or use a STATE RELIGION to dictate policy. I'm sorry but Israel ,while better on most issues than a medieval style monarchy, has a long way to go before I consider it a Western style democracy.

-BOSTONPATRIOT said to GTEA - This is hilarious---a Mulsim being outraged at the idea of a STATE RELIGION. Why do I suspect that you're just slightly less outraged at every country where Islam is the state religion.

-MUHAMMADBEAR said to GERBILTEA - What does putting religion on an ID card have to do with democracy?

A person's address goes on a driver's licence in the US, doesn't mean that the US isn't democratic.

What a silly comment.

-HESPERADO said - A democracy does what it has to do to protect its population from innumerable fanatics who are so psychotic about their supremacist ideology masquerading as a religion they blow themselves up in public places in order to mass-murder as many people as possible.

In that context, particularly when it is a tiny country surrounded by bloodthirsty genocidal wolves inspired by that same supremacist ideology masquerading as a religion, a democracy would be recklessly foolish not to institute protective measures.

-DUMBLEDORESARMY told HESPERADO - Seconded, sir.

BIGGERSHOVEL {comment was destroyed by Intensedebate glitch - it concerned Muslim immigrants}

GERBILTEA said to BIGGERSHOVEL - This all seems very alarmist. Countless men before you have made the same sort of statements about other immigrant groups and each time they have been wrong. What makes you so certain that you're right in this case?

-HESPERADO answered GERBIL TEA - "Other immigrant groups, unlike Islam, don't have a blueprint for militant supremacist expansionism made more dangerous by a trans-national sense of brotherhood and concrete ways to network internationally to facilitate plans to attack non-Muslims; nor do other immigrant groups have a totalitarian fanaticism expressed in myriad ways which all conduce to the various violent attacks on non-Muslims that have been reoccurring, after a respite of a couple of centuries, all over the globe."

END of third part of my record of the original comments on this thread.

Fourth and final part of the original discussion prompted by the posted item.

DOG WITHOUT SLIPPERS {Made a posting referring to the perceived necessity of evicting Muslims from non-Muslim lands - IntDeb swallowed the posting}.

-GERBIL TEA said - And where shall you chase us to? I am indigenous to the United States as were many generations before me and I am a Muslim. This is my homeland and it will always be my homeland. What will you do with one such as me?

-DUMBLEDORESARMY answered - Exile. Lifelong. That's what often happened to treasonous and seditious citizens, as far back as the time of the ancient Romans.

-MUHAMMADBEAR remarked - It is quite an incredible coincidence how so many of our resident Muslim apologists turn out to be native American.

What are the odds of that?

-LAKEVIEWPAUL answered GERBIL TEA - GerbilTea, put you in prison. There you will be in good company with other criminals whose homeland is the USA.

-GERBIL TEA answered LAKEVIEWPAUL - For what crime Paul? This doesn't draw up any other parallels to you to anything else in history? People placed in camps, deported or executed for their minority Semitic religion... k.

-THOMASH answered LAKEVIEWPAUL - There are more appropriate way of dealing with traitors than prison. Dumbledoresarmy's idea above is a good one. But there are even better. It depends on the degree of aid and comfort given to the enemy.

But these things are decided on after the war is won. So let's win it first. What to do with quisling scum will take care of itself as it did in Europe after the liberation. It will be fun to watch.

MRSJ {made a posting which was swallowed by IntDeb - commenting on ignorance of most people about the danger from Islam, as shown in comments to newspaper reports } –
-LAKEVIEWPAUL said to MRSJ - C'mon now, MrsJ. Has not someone taught you, or at least given you a brief lecture, that "God helps those who help their own selves"?

-MRSJ answered LAKEVIEWPAUL - Indeed Paul, but I'm one person.

What about the moron who wrote the above quote - their ilk, and the vast numbers who care only about reality TV and soaps?

-LAKEVIEWPAUL answered MRSJ - (1) "...but I'm one person." So study the fundamentals of project management until you are ready to implement a project...as every would-be project manager must do alone, anyway. Then identify some friends you'd like to recruit for your PM team, of which you are leader. Some fundamentals?

Step #1: State the problem concisely and precisely.
Step #2: Formulate solution options.
Step #3: Chose one option, and begin the project. Step #4.......

(2) "...and the vast numbers....". Well, there's not much one can do about the numbers problem over the short term (1 day to 10 years).

Maybe you can find a quality book written for sales reps who spend their days trying to overcome objections of the TV and soaps crowd.

My experience (in biz dev, product management, and even a little time myself making cold calls....ugh, cold calls!) taught me that objections are just about all that sales reps encounter every day.

They get it from customers, from potential customers, from people inside their own firms who tell them, as I have, "Go pound sand. We won't do for any customer what you request."

(3) "the moron"....overwhelm it with numbers. Better get to work

-THOMASH told MRSJ - With all respect, MrsJ the "messages along these lines" are not necessarily written by leaders, rather by creatures who for ideological, or pathological reasons and intellectual perversions are spellbound by the vision of the New Just World and try by any means to weaken the West by spreading lies about the history and worth of our civilization. JW is regularly visited by some of these West-hating specimen – (like the one to whose routine, monotonous, drivel you most recently responded.)

Still, I maintain there is hope. There are quite discernible signs that soundbites about colonialism, exploitation, racism and other “terrible things we did to them”, have exhausted their initial punch and don’t make the same impression as only a few years ago.

They are not automatically accepted and increasingly often are challenged by youth who is quite comfortable with their Western identity and confident with belief in West’s moral superiority over islam.

I often chat with young people and I have occasion to hear their often very well formulated opinion about Islam and, what is quite significant, they much more often than before join the Dansk Folkeparti (I live in Denmark).
No, definitely there is still hope MrsJ. We mustn’t despair so early. Not as long as there are people like yourself around. (Need I tell you how much I applaud your excellent comments?)

Keep on your good work MrsJ. If not us, then the generations after us will finish the great and noble work of saving the West. May God grant us wisdom and strength to do our best and may He grant long life to the abominable quislings including those who regularly discharge their load of hateful lies on JW, so they may be tried and punished for treason. May they not get away with death.

-DUMBLEDORESARMY said to THOMAS H - Thank you, Thomas. That is good to hear. Holger Dansker awakens, perhaps.

You may like to know that, as well as having Scots and Irish ancestors (the major cultural influence in my upbringing) I am also descended from Danes - an intrepid pair of whom ventured forth from Denmark in the early 1870s, small children in tow, to settle in Australia. I have stood at their graves in a country cemetery in Australia and thought of what it must have been like for them, to travel to what was then in effect another planet, never to return. One of my great-grandfathers was a son of theirs; a dinkum Aussie pioneer who bought his own farm and built his own house from timber he had cut himself.

I am glad to know that courage and the love of freedom are being re-kindled among my distant cousins in Denmark.

-THOMASH said to DUMBLEDORESARMY - Thank you!

Your Scottish/Irish ancestry and its “major cultural influence” shines through the eloquence, wit, boldness of your comments. What is it about these Celts, whether in Europe, America or Australia that makes them such great writers, interlocutors and entertainers? They are natural talkers as they are natural drinkers and fighters – as I have experienced in my long gone youth.
And what a precious, moving story one guesses hides behind these short two lines about your Danish ancestors.
What spirit, courage, determination and FAITH they must have carried with them to that allien “planet.” If today we only had but a small fraction what they had in such abundance Islam would have never dared to as much as even threaten, not to speak attack, us. But I refuse to believe these glorious qualities of the Western man are irretrievably lost. I believe if only the faith will start growing the rest will follow. Yes, your “distant cousins in Denmark” are making increasingly audible sounds of discontent with the Islamic offensive. So take heart.
Being born and raised in Poland, I am not exactly a Dane, so in strictly genealogical terms we may not be “distant cousins”. But I love the West, and am prepared to do much for its survival vis a vis the threatening monstrosity of Islam. So in spiritual sense you and me are as close as brothers.

PS. Ah, “dinkum”! I had to call Malcolm, my Aussie friend here and ask him to explain it to me. What a lovely word! Yeah, we need more of THAT!

IPSOFACTO {made a posting, which IntenseDebate promptly ate}

-INDIOVIEJO replied - Sir, you must recall that not all of the founders of The United Nations, signed The Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Islamic countries abstained, but were still admitted to the amoral world body. It means nothing to them and to a host of other dictatorial countries which have a vote and perceive benefits from the several organizations spawned by the UN.
Most of the funding for these currupt organisms comes from the American taxpayer. So, it was only a matter of time when the nefarious OIC would try to pass binding resolutions against freedom of speech. Blasphemy is a catchall word meening anything they deem offensive at the moment.

{There was a brief exchange between LAKEVIEWPAUL, who referred to contemporary crimes by Muslims, and GERBILTEA, denying what LVP had said: referring to 'Abrahamic faith' and denying that the use of fire as a weapon is an Islamic thing; then giving the usual list of 'sins of Christianity'}.

DUMBLEDORESARMY then said to GERBIL TEA - Do you realize what gibberish you are talking?

1. Islam is not an Abrahamic faith. Judaism and Christianity are *Biblical* faiths; Islam seems to me to have been deliberately conceived of as their active antithesis on every significant point. Islam, to any intelligent observer, appears to be explicitly and deliberately - indeed vehemently - ANTI-Jewish and ANTI-Christian. Islam's claim that 'allah' is the same as the Biblical God is analogous to identity theft and passport fraud.

2. Why, pray, do Muslims use fire so much, to burn churches and the homes of Christians? - the most recent cases being in Pakistan.

3. Your final paragraph is full of all the same predictable dull old tu quoque canards that are recited, over and over, by all Muslim dementors who visit this site.

Inquisition: greatly exaggerated. Christianity has been in existence for 2000 years; the Inquisition was not set up at the outset of Christianity, far from it. The Inquisition is not characteristic or typical of Christianity, nor can its practices be deduced from, or related to, any of the canonical New Testament texts: and it was limited both in time and in space.

Conquest of the New World: nothing in Christian scripture mandates the sins committed by the European colonisers (many of whom were not, in fact, by the 18th century, practising or professing Christians, but rather, deists or even outright sceptics, especially among the ruling elite); whereas the mass murders committed during the Muslim jihad in India, and the mass murders and mass enslavements carried out by Muslims in black Africa for 1200 years (and counting: still continuing today), are in direct continuity with the example of Mohammed and the jihad teachings in the Quran, Sira, Hadith and Muslim jurists and 'theologians'.

Ku klux klan - not Christian.

Destruction of Hellenic learning? - nope. Again, this charge, a favourite of certain western sceptical writers in the 17th century, is grossly exaggerated and on many counts simply false. Greek texts, especially the poetic and dramatic works, were copied and conserved by Byzantine Christians.

The New Testament contains no text even remotely comparable to Surah 9: 29.

As for the TaNaKh: the command re the Amalekites applied *only* to the Amalekites - one small tribe. It is very, very clear to anyone who, like me, has read the whole of the Bible, that the harsh statements in the books of Joshua and Judges apply *only* to the very small area of land known as Canaan, or eretz Israel, and were specific to that time and place. Which is not a vast world-spanning empire.

Extortion? Only Islam involves a religious codification of, and command to institute and maintain by violence, a temporal, physical, monetary protection racket.

I assume that, since you call yourself a Muslim, you now believe that the nasty and extremely worldly protection racket run by the Muslims is a great idea, full of purity and holiness?

And that were you a Muslim in a society run by Muslims, you would have no qualms walloping your non-Muslim neighbour on the back of the neck as you collected the jizya from him, on pain of his death if he refused? And what if he was too poor to pay? Would you slit his throat, or seize his daughter for the harems, in lieu of payment?

HESPERADO observed, re IntenseDebate which was going completely haywire at the time - Wow -- IntenseDebate keeps finding new ways to F up, don't it?
-DUMBLEDORESARMY said - Yes it does. I think the concocters of Intensedebate should *pay* Mr Spencer for the privilege of providing them with so many persistent and devoted commentators as guinea-pigs for the purpose of testing their half-developed system and exposing all the 'bugs'. Commentators at other forums with so many bugs would have given up and stamped off in a huff long ago; only the jihadwatch regulars keep on coming back regardless, thus exposing bug after bug after bug..To employ a different metaphor, we're test pilots and we don't even get danger money.

HUGH FITZGERALD observed - I distinctly remember putting up several long and reasonably sensible comments at this site, that have now been deleted "by the adminisetrator" -- and I further notice that a great many others, also no doubt of value and entirely devoid of material that would offend, have been deleted. What is going on, and what are we to do? So often in the past I would, idiotically, often delete by accident my own posts by hitting the wrong button before they were fixed in the ethereal amber; now I -- and many others -- have to worry about "the adminstatorby the "administrator." Is there nothing that can be done?
-DUMBLEDORESARMY said - Dear Hugh - it's probably just the Intensedebate bugs. They are many and various and new ones keep appearing all the time. I *love* the jihadwatch pub - the company and conversation, excepting of course for the Mohammedtrolls alias dementors and boggarts, and the dingdown poltergeist, is excellent - but it has a major infestation of rats, cockroaches and fleas and nothing seems to be able to get rid of them.

-DUMBLEDORESARMY added - Hugh - do not worry. Much of the time, as I read and reflect on the articles and the discussions, I copy and save such exchanges as I find interesting, instructive or even entertaining.

Given that your posts qualify on all three counts - interest, entertainment, and instruction - this of course means that just about everything you've ever posted at jihadwatch is conserved on *my* computer as well as wherever Intensedebate and Typepad archive things.

It also means that when things get deleted, sometimes I have the original....in this case, alas, no. But very often, yes.

-GRAVENIMAGE observed - Hugh, I also noticed how many comments had been "deleted by the administrator". Oddly, it just seemed to be "primary comments"--all the responses to these comments seem extant. I'm sure Dumbledore's Army is correct, and this is an IntenseDebate glitch.

I've notified "the administrator" of the problem. If it is fixed, I hope you can re post your comment--or at least as much of it as you can recall.

-CNNSUX said - Hugh, U2?

What happened here? Soviet style censorship or has the religion of hijackers hijacked the site?

IMAMERICAN said - I found it impossible to believe that Hugh of all people would be deleted. Some little deviant hacker might be messing with the site. I know that Robert or Marisol would never delete Hugh. We need to call the Orkin Man and eliminate these pests. BTW, Robert, keep it up. You're our John the Baptist crying out in the wilderness.

THE LEGEND said [RE VIDEO CLIP OF SPENCER] - The west don't understand the enemy very well why is that?

binladdin i hate to say it but he's a smart he got USA in to Iraq and Afghanistan keeping the west busy while the really threat is inside there countries living among free people eating studying with them advancing there agenda while the west is fighting a war that is draining the resources.

the enemy know's what he is doing and binladdin knos what's he is doing like his Mohammad the war lord.

seems the only way to defeat the enemy is by reading the quran and knowing what we are facing before it get's too late.

EASTVIEW said (of the video clip of Mr Spencer) - Wonderful presentation! And of course every point you made was familiar to regulars here. I wonder to how many in your audience your message was new, though? I hope you have many new venues like this to speak. Keep up the good work!

Is there a way this video clip can be downloaded? The link appears to be to a UStream host http://cdn1.ustream.tv/swf/4/viewer.156.swf?vid=1... , but I was unable to find a way to snag it. How about posting it on YouTube, or Dailymotion?

Echoing the comments above, something fishy is going on with the comments - not only with this story, but with many other stories over the past several days. It is becoming quite irritating. I hope you can prevail on ID to get to the bottom of the problem and fix it. Otherwise you might wish to consider moving to another commenting system. (I'd hate to see this. I've become rather fond of ID - when it works properly.)

LIVINGENGINE said - I think Robert Spencer is an excellent public speaker, and he should do more of it; it is one of his strengths.

Some of the things he did with Michelle Malkin were very well done.
http://video.yahoo.com/watch/127124/1650818

How about a JihadWatch video channel?

BLUES4ALLAH said - Great summary of your latest book!

Understanding the Stealth Jihad initiative and how to oppose it politically and socially is the only way to stem the tide of this 'war on terror'. Now that the OIC is functioning non-stop to promote their ends, and BHO has declared calling a spade a spade off-limits, so to speak ... education is even more important ... but it's precisely education that will become outlawed, degree by degree, by BHO and the OIC as time progresses.

I'm afraid that only more violent jihad will spur us to understand the stealth variety.

TAPROOT said - __Thank you Mr. Spencer for your courage and always stirring deliverance.

Your voice is one for so many of us who would like to inspire but don't have your talent .

You , thank God, speak for me and others like me who know what is happening in the Islam-West situation and want to spread the word .

I have found that is not easy , because so many not only are reluctant to believe that Muslims are anything other than victoms of prejudice , but are actually outraged if I even imply they are dangerous.__

I wish our citizens could be made aware of the radical Muslim underhanded method of getting what they want , which is to see us influenced and convinced enough to accept and adopt the Islamic lifestyle.
A fate almost worse than death, as far as I'm concerned. I wish " stealth jihad" would become household words. ____

I can't thank you enough for your staunch and resolute efforts . Like it or not you really are a hero to me.

I have passed out your books to all my relatives and friends .

BASEBALLMAVEN said - I am having trouble following anything on ID today--with all the deletions and mixing up of old and new posts.

BLUES4ALLAH repeated, to Mr Spencer - "Great summary of your latest book!

Understanding the Stealth Jihad initiative and how to oppose it politically and socially is the only way to stem the tide of this 'war on terror'. Now that the OIC is functioning non-stop to promote their ends."

END of my record of the original discussion - dda.

POST SCRIPTUM - It appears I did, in fact, preserve a little more of the conversation. Here it is.

FREDMK1 said - While I do not want to play down the seriousness of the situation {in Europe} it varies from place to place. For example Spain may be a special case.

"The numbers are startling. Only 3.2 per cent of Spain's population was foreign-born in 1998. In 2007 it was 13.4 per cent."

This could be because a lot of North Europeans 1940's and 1950's baby boomers have retired there.

However everything written about the UK is true and regrettably anyone writing or talking about it is either "racist" or "islamophobic".

That every example of "outreach" and "celebration of diversity" only adds to the contempt they already hold us in means nothing to the liberal left.

FREDMK1 added - Sorry about the extra posts folks this intense debate just does not seem to work for me.
-DUMBLEDORESARMY told FRED - Mate...Intensedebate has been screwing us all around, over the past few months, in all sorts of novel and fascinating ways. Until and unless Mr Spencer is able to find an alternative, I suggest you employ the metaphor that I use myself: think of this forum as a pub. The beer is good, the conversation (excepting the Mohammedan dementors and boggarts) is excellent; but there is a terrible infestation of fleas in the carpet and nothing seems to be able to get rid of them. The regulars, however, enjoy each other's company so much, and are so committed to the discussion of the great matter of our time, the Defence of Civilisation Against the Third Jihad, that we are prepared to grit our teeth and ignore the fleas.

CIVILUSDEFENDUS said - Continuing from GerbilTea and Hesperado...(quoting) 'The melting pot theory allows for all to come and generation after generation a winnowing out of less beneficial ideas and practices and a strengthening of those ideas that are beneficial to the nation, to the human spirit. Overall the society grows and shapes and is shaped by its people. '

This works well only where liberty is honored. Liberty and justice for all are America's foundation. The 'melting pot' works less well - or backwards - in totalitarian societies where generation after generation only the strong-arm tactics or the most supplicating and subservient practices endure. This is almost a definition of West and East psychology.

To reach for the lowest common denominator among the earth's cultures takes us to a dark and undesirable place. Hell on earth you might say.

INDIEVIEJO said -
I believe Spain is paying the price of its progresive/socialist outlook, which has led the Spaniards to view multiculturalism as an off shute of a socialist internationalism. Kumbaya,lol...
Instead of letting Mudslimes poach on Spanish soil, they could of restricted their Immigration to hispanics. Most are still Catholic, speak Spanish, and have western values. This mistake is going to cost dearly.

-GERBIL TEA said - Mudslimes? Hmmm? Could there be a kernel of truth to the claims by many Muslims that fear of Muslims is in part based on racism?

-DUMBLEDORESARMY answered - Rubbish. We are just as disgusted with the North Carolina hillbillies-turned-jihadist, or in Australia's case, with our David Hickses and Shane Kents, as we are with anyone else, of any other ethnolinguistic background whatsoever, who embraces the violent supremacism of the Arab Imperial Religion.

CIVILUSDEFENDUS said - Today we see a totalitarian ideology come to a tolerant and free society. So, do we free men enter bondage, voluntary slavery to allah and to sharia or enter the involuntary slavery of dhimmitude or do slaves of allah abandon their chains? As we see over and over again, integration, mutual respect and peaceful coexistence has not worked when one side swears fidelity to islam.

MRSJ said - "Anti militant Islam protest in Birmingham (England) today. 31 arrests and photos of Muslims doing what they do best - mob attacks on lone people. Very brave. "

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1205263/P...

AND *that* is where the conversation seems in fact to have ended, in that thread - dda.