I'm in Orlando, Florida, at the Rifqa Bary hearing. Tom Trento of the Florida Security Council, Pamela Geller of Atlas Shrugs and I held a press conference outside the courtroom a little while ago, for a skeptical and sometimes hostile press. The press conference was disrupted several times by Muhammad Lutfi, an Orlando Muslim who declared his support for the Hamas-linked Council on American-Islamic Relations; he has clearly taken a great interest in this case.
We explained about the jihadist connections of the Noor mosque, about Islamic apostasy law, and about Islamic honor killing. The mainstream media flocked to Lutfi, because he was telling them what they want to hear, but he was lying openly about Islamic apostasy law, denying that Muhammad had said, "If anyone changes his religion, kill him," and when I pointed out that this was in a hadith in Bukhari, the collection of traditions of Muhammad that Muslims consider most reliable, he denied that also.
I'm in an overflow courtroom now, with the proceedings from the main courtroom on closed-circuit video. Rifqa is in the courtroom now, and it will all be beginning soon. I'll keep up with what I can here, but my laptop is running out of juice, so I may not be able to liveblog even though laptops are allowed in here. In any case, I'll keep you posted. Pamela is in the main courtroom and I'm sure she will have extensive coverage.
I've met many heroic people here -- converts from Islam and others who have come out to show their support for this courageous and threatened girl, whom every lover of freedom should be supporting.
-- We are now embarked. Rifqa's parents, Mohamed and Aysha Bary, are both present via phone. Their lawyers are in the courtroom. They are discussing a date for a mediation hearing. The judge is explaining that there are "issues beyond what the facts are" -- jurisdictional issues and others. And they are sorting out the status of the mother's attorneys; the family clearly has lawyered up since the first hearing. They are apparently no longer "indigent," as they had previously claimed.
The Orlando Sentinel has put in a notice of appearance, which would give them notice of certain documents in the case; Rifqa's lawyer wonders who provided confidential information to the Sentinel so that they knew to do so. Good question. The Sentinel rep is arguing that historically when proceedings have been closed, the media has been given access to documents that are otherwise sealed to the public. Mohamed and Aysha Bary's lawyer is arguing that since this case has been "blown out of proportion" on the Internet (heh), the Sentinel should have access to confidential documents, presumably to set the record straight.
My battery is running out!
The court has denied the Sentinel's request, but the judge is assuring the media that in any issues related to closing future hearings he would allow them to be heard.
A representative of the Florida Department of Law Enforcement is present and has a report. He is, perhaps significantly, sitting with the lawyers for the parents. At the adversarial press conference reporters were shouting that law enforcement had investigated and found that Rifqa was not bat any risk in returning to her family in Ohio; this perhaps was what they were referring to.
One of Rifqa's lawyers is saying that they were given no opportunity to be present when Rifqa was interviewed by law enforcement. Neither her attorney nor her guardian ad litem were present, which seems highly irregular. The other side responds that because Rifqa is not a suspect but a victim, she had no right to have counsel present.
Alas, my battery is running out; must shut down. Will take notes on paper and update you asap.
UPDATING from Blackberry now, as long as it holds out. Now, over a question regarding mediation, the lawyers have approached the bench, and the mics are off.
Now they're back. The judge is saying that there are enough attorneys in the court room (and there are many), so he is not inclined to appoint an atty ad litem for Rifqa, as she has private counsel.
Now they're discussing a gag order for the case. The judge is allowing the Sentinel rep to argue against the gag order. The Sentinel guy is saying that gag orders are for jury trials, but in this case there is no jury, so no one influenced by coverage will be making the decisions. He says that gag orders are to keep people from being prejudiced as to the case, and so no gag order is needed here.
The guardian ad litem is saying that Rifqa understands why a gag order is needed, and says that many times she and others connected to the case have been distraught by the coverage. And looking at the Sentinel's coverage, that is understandable.
Rifqa, says her lawyer, says that "This case is not about me, but about thousands like me," but understands why the gag order is needed.
Now the parents' attorney is attacking John Stemberger, Rifqa's attorney, for his hypocrisy. He says that Stemberger has been lying and attacking the Ohio mosque and Muslims, and now he wants a gag order. He is saying that a gag order would be saying that people can use the media for their benefit and that they would have no right to respond. He is saying that Stemberger's report on the Ohio mosque was based on lies from right wing sources and had no value.
Weeden, one of the parents' lawyers, then contrasted Stemberger's supposedly baseless report with the FDLE report that says she is in no danger. Then Rifqa's guardian ad litem asked that he be removed from the court, as he released material from the FDLE report after they just sealed it. They went to the bench to talk that over. When they returned, Weeden was still there.
The parents' lawyer is attacking Stemberger and the Lorenzes for publicizing the case. He also earlier mentioned an attack on Islam and Muslims.
The judge is saying that both sides have gotten plenty of media coverage. He agrees that the more media attention Rifqa gets, the less safe she is. He grants the gag order, but only the attorneys. They are to discuss only procedural issues with the media. The parents' lawyer says English is their 2nd language, and he is gagging people who can speak for them. Judge replies that it is not his job to provide interpreters for people who want to talk to the media -- and that they can get other people to speak for them. After the case is resolved, he said, you can write your novel or produce your miniseries or do whatever you want to do.
Now they're discussing Rifqa's citizenship status. And now on to the question of jurisdiction. The mother's new attorney has just filed a new motion saying this court has no jurisdiction. The guardian ad litem says that has already been decided, and you don't get 2 bites of the apple. Now the parents' lawyer says that Ohio Child Protective Services won't file a case because they don't think she is in danger, but FL only has jurisdiction because Ohio has not filed a case, setting up a catch 22. He says that if they have to, they will file a case in Ohio charging that Rifqa is an unruly delinquent. The judge says essentially that if another case is filed, jurisdiction will be reconsidered.
Now they're discussing procedures regarding visitation rights. She has had supervised contact with her brother. The department (not sure of what) is seeking to limit visitation with Pastor Lorenz and his wife. Now the parents' lawyer is saying that the Lorenzes and their children and the Global Revolution Church should be restricted from seeing the child. He says that because of the gag on attorneys, Stemberger, who has a habit of grandstanding, will use the church to do his "dirty work."
Stemberger says Elahi -- the parents' lawyer -- is the one who is grandstanding, and that he has provided accurate information. He says that the Lorenzes' children are Rifqa's friends and provide her comfort. The judge says he will allow them to continue to visit Rifqa. Parents' lawyer says Mohamed Bary has not lost his parental rights, and he has a say in who sees his child. He says the Lorenzes hid Rifqa for two and a half weeks while Ohio was looking for her. The judge says that no allegations have actually been made against the Lorenzes' children. And he adds that even her own siblings should not be discussing this case.
The parents' lawyer says that mediation will be useless. "I'm trying to help the court" by saying this, he says. The judge says that he doesn't see how he is helping the court by complaining that mediation won't work. They agree to set a date for mediation. Also the guardian ad litem asks that the child start counseling, and that should later expand to family counseling. Some say she has already started it. The judge suggests medication, and the guardian says Rifqa objects to that. One of Rifqa's attorneys wants to know the perspective of the counselor.
The parents' attorney wants the judge to appoint an attorney ad litem for Rifqa. He says Stemberger is agenda-driven. The judge says he should file a motion to that effect, but that Rifqa wants Stemberger and he will respect that. He says that it seems that Elahi wants a new attorney who will have a different view from Stemberger's of what is in the child's best interests. But he will not appoint one now.
September 29 -- next hearing.
"when I pointed out that this was in a hadith in Bukhari, the collection of traditions of Muhammad that Muslims consider most reliable, he denied that also."
They REALLY want to kill her now. The lying scum.
I wish you could testify, but I suspect there is no chance of that.
GO ROBERT!
GO PAMELA!
I will be praying for dear Rifqa and all of you defenders of freedom.
"and when I pointed out that this was in a hadith in Bukhari, the collection of traditions of Muhammad that Muslims consider most reliable, he [Muhammad Lutfi] denied that also."
An interesting sign of desperation on the part of Lutfi there. He probably hastily assessed the situation he was in as not providing him enough time to do the more common, more elaborate, tap-dancing maneuvers predicated upon admitting that the Bukhari hadith exists but then deconstructing that fact so that the punch is taken out of it. Unfortunately, Lutfi's tactic in lieu of that, however desperate it was, probably worked for the vast majority of the press corps there, and for too many listeners and readers of that press.
Can a brother get an UPDATE?
"They are apparently no longer "indigent," as they had previously claimed."
THIS is what zakat is for.
Doughnuts: Robert is updating the bottom as we speak (as long as his battery holds out)
Why, yes, djrz, that part of the zakat that is left over, after the majority of such funds went to Hamas' new bus-buster bomb.
Thank you and God Bless You both , Mr. Spencer and Ms. Geller.
It amazes me that 2 non-relatives (strangers) would have more interest in Rifqa's well-being than her family.
Here's a portion of the note I sent to the gov's. office, which they acknowledged receipt of:
The most important phrase in the United States Declaration of Independence is life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
Right now, Rifqa has only her life left. Should she be returned she loses that as well.
A POX on insufficient laptop batteries!
I am very worried about the law enforcement report.
You KNOW they have been taqiyya'd to the maximum.
"Oh no, officer. We're just docile loving members of the 'Religion of Peace.' We just want to have our precious daughter back. Of COURSE we are tolerant of other religions, ALL Muslims are. Who told you that Islam teaches us to kill apostates? That's just a silly rumor spread by Zio..., I mean spread by Islamophobes."
"when I pointed out that this was in a hadith in Bukhari, the collection of traditions of Muhammad that Muslims consider most reliable, he denied that also."
Rule #1 of lying: Make sure the lie is plausible and not objectively falsifiable. These guys are truly getting desperate.
Sigh, I was following the updates, I hope Pamela can get something going on her facebook page.
It seems like the taqqiya is flying fast and loose there, I just hope the judge is wise or knowledgable enough to catch the lies.
I wonder why this is even an issue? A girl has said that her life is in danger from her Muslim parents. It's not as if there have not been 5000 honor killings in the last year or that Muslims are known as peaceful and tolerant. The exact opposite is true.Islam has a long record of violence, hatred and intolerance.As a FOX news commentator noted how can you not take this girls allegations seriously and first move to protect her? At the very least she is 17 going on 18 and can be emancipated from her parents.
"The other side responds that because Rifqa is not a suspect but a victim, she had no right to have counsel present."
Well, at least they got THAT right: she is DEFINITELY a VICTIM!! If not now, then possibly VERY soon. If not here in the US, then possibly in Sri Lanka or another Muslim country.
Wow, it looks like it's getting down and dirty.
If the Blackberry gives out too, can you use carrier pidgeon?
The parents' lawyer is attacking Stemburger and the Lorenzes for publicizing the case. He also earlier mentioned an attack on Islam and Muslims.
Oh yes, they hate Islamic dirty laundry to be aired, of course.
"unruly delinquent"??
I spit my drink out when I read that one...
MinstrelBoy - Me too.
Oh, sure, to Muslims, though, any girl who doesn't wear a cover is an "unruly delinquent".
One can't be sure, but I think I'm beginning to like this judge. We'll see.
Spirit Wolf
I guess fleeing from your potential killer is "unruly" if you are below 18 and it is your father/mother trying to kill you....
Is this the 21st century?
"The judge suggests medication"
What the . . .?!?
Where did THAT come from??
I'm praying, praying, praying. I'll go on praying, praying, praying, for truth to prevail over lies.
May all the holy angels surround and protect Rifqa, the Judge (to keep him from being confused and deluded by the lies that Muslims tell so rapidly and easily), and Rifqa's lawyer.
And in the last couple of days I fired off a couple of emails with salient details about Rifqa, to the two Aussie politicians - one in the House of Representatives, one in the Senate - whom I *know*, absolutely *know*, are au fait enough about sharia, to know what is at stake for Rifqa. I asked them to bring this case - with all its implications for freedom of conscience, freedom of religion, not only in the USA but everywhere in the western world that people may try to leave Islam - to the attention of our government.
Great work, Robert.
Thanks.
Robert:
How would you characterize the effect of the hearing?
Better for Rifqa?
Better for parents/CAIR etc?
Not clear?
Spencer: "And they are sorting out the status of the mother's attorneys; the family clearly has lawyered up since the first hearing. They are apparently no longer "indigent," as they had previously claimed."
Lawyered up. Interesting term. No telling where all the money for lawyers is coming from.
DDA, I'll add my prayers to yours. Please, God, protect the life of this child of yours. No longer her parents, Lord, but yours. Bless her and keep her safe.
Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.
Ephesians 3:20-21
Does anybody else get a sort of impression that this judge is getting just the teeniest bit pzzed off with the antics of the Muslims and their Muslim lawyer?
I suspect he's getting a bad feeling about them. I suspect his judicial instincts - honed by years in that court, encountering every imaginable variety of plausible and implausible liar - are jangling at him.
He's not blind. I think - I hope - he can see the difference in demeanour between Rifqa, and those with her, and the folks on the other side.
Did anyone notice this bit?
"The parents' attorney wants the judge to appoint an attorney ad litem for Rifqa. He says Stemburger is agenda-driven.
"The judge says he [the attorney] should file a motion to that effect, *but that Rifqa wants Stemburger and he [the judge] will respect that* {my emphasis added - dda}."
There is no God you sheep. If there was, we'd be living in utopia.
I think I'm liking the judge too. The remark about medication kinda threw me a bit, but apart from that I do like his attitude :)
Many thanks Robert (and Pamela) for getting the word out straight from the court.
Finally Muslim girls are refusing to wear those racist sheets. During slavery the Underground Railroad was to free black slaves. Today the Undergroud is to save Muslim children. Islam was the cause of both.
Sharia and Pact of Omar cause the slavery of black Africans and the word that came with them was to use black women and girls as young as 2 months old as sex slaves and boys also. Blacks are so loving of Malcolm X and NOI they are afraid of telling the truth. Even black colleges never tell the truth out of fear. Malcolm X called Dr. King a House nigga and the Musa man did the same thing at a college in 2-09.
SAVE THIS GIRL. THANKS TO ALL WHO ARE INVOLVED.
DustanH
I will assume you are an Atheist..
So? I am a Deist and I say in this case...
Go Christians!
I call it common sense, you know what I talking about..well maybe you don't?
Just like I say Go Team X when Team X is playing Notre Dame...
I personally spoke with one of the reporters when this case first came to light.
I explained about the Apostasy law in some depth, but all I got was tank you for calling.
What the hell is going on with the American press?
Fantastic work ! I am hypnotized, speechless and mesmerized !
Thank you Robert.
Thank you Pamela.
I am suprised that the parents did not personally attend the hearing. From what I have read they are supposed to be well off finacially. Why didn't they at least drive to Florida if they love and miss their daughter as much as they profess?
Robert, Pamela & Tom -- Rifqa is very fortunate to have you there speaking on her behalf, and you are all in my prayers.
THANK YOU, ROBERT & PAM, for this fantastic on-the-fly reporting!! I had a key depo today, else I'd have seen you there!
It seems the tide has turned STRONGLY in Rifqa's favor--AWESOME!!
The result at the first hearing (8/21) demonstrated--THE COURT [JUDGE] IS **NOT AGAINST** RIFQA.
The result at the 2d hearing (today) demonstrated--THE COURT [JUDGE] IS IN FAVOR OF RIFQA.
I AM concerned about the FDLE report, if it downplayed the menace to Rifqa...BUT, their report is only a recommendation, not binding on the judge. FDLE's incompetence (if that was in fact their conclusion) is disappointing, but not surprising.
Judges in Dependency Court put GREAT WEIGHT on the recommendations of the Guardian Ad Litem. Rifqa's GAL attorney, Ms. Bartholemew, did an outstanding job on 8/21, and it appears she did an even better job today, esp. in zorching the FDLE for releasing sealed info. I'd have loved to see that!!
As for Ohio filing a case to provide grounds for Ohio to have jurisdiction...Judge Dawson telegraphed that to them back on 8/21, AND THEY DIDN'T. Why not? BECAUSE THEY'D NEED TO CHARGE HER PARENTS W/ABUSE/NEGLECT, AS FL HAS DONE.
Folks, when you have a strong GAL, plus a strong attorney (Stemberger) united and advocating to a judge who is already sympathetic--IT'S OVER.
Rifqa will never leave FL unless she chooses to do so.
Thank you God -
Well done Robert and Pamela, et al.
I am so grateful for the good sense of the judge today.
I didn't get the medication bit, either - but he seemed to float the idea and then respect Rifqa's team on that one.
I am glad she is safe for now - this may drag out...
Mary Louise
Awesome vid from Atlas Shrugs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ca5M8JjhbIU&feature=autofb&ref=nf
Excellent work, Mr Spencer :)
This case is about a young girl fearing for her life. It's not about uncovered meat in the street. That's the difference. But how can you teach the illiterate about the abc? A long way to go ...
Meanwhile, at the website of the Hudson Institute, Wafa Sultan continues to explain the larger problem of which the Rifqa Bary case, and its coverage by a credulous and mostly craven press, is only one manifestation:
"As an Arab woman who suffered for three decades living under Islamic Sharia, it is clear to me that Islam’s political ideology and Sharia must be fought relentlessly by Western civilization to prevent its application in a free society.
However, I have found myself fighting on two fronts. The first front is against Islamists, a daunting fight indeed. But the other front is one shaped by too many uninformed individuals who like to view themselves as open minded “progressives”. They seem to somehow claim superiority on compassion, on peace, on open-mindedness and on appreciation of other cultures. Regarding themselves as tolerant, free thinking individuals, they avoid questioning Muslims’ harmful intentions. They restrict themselves to self-criticism, and make politically-correct excuses for Islamism. Regrettably, they show their indisputable acceptance of ‘others’ at the expense of the public’s responsibility to learn the truth about Islam’s detrimental tenets.
(...)
When I first immigrated to the US, I learned to my dismay that Islam has been labeled by many as “a religion of peace.” But for me, as a Syrian who grew up in Islamic country, a set of beliefs that insists that women are wicked is an evil set of belief. A pious ideology - - that obliges non Muslims to live as subjects under it as unequal - - is an immoral pious ideology.
Regrettably, we frequently experience politically correct harsh responses to criticism of Islam by those who admonish liberated Muslims or Arabs. They often use clichés such as, “There are violent stories in all religions texts,” or “How can we bulk all Muslims into one group?” Or, “Among Christians and Jews there are also zealots who have done horrible things to others.” All of these excuses are made without considering critical Islamic doctrines which play detrimental role in Islam’s march towards Western decline.
(...)
Hence, a destructive relationship is created: on one hand, Islamists lie to the gullible non - Muslims and on the other hand, many non Muslims, in particular proponents of interfaith dialogue accept their lies and avoid asking harsh and necessary questions to expose their dangerous intentions. In that context, the Muslims’ Al Taqyyaa and the West’s naiveté and ignorance about the true intentions of Islamists are both harmful models of engagement.
Further, they both violate our right to know the truth, regardless of how evil or unintentional each side’s objective is. Thus, Al Taqyyaa and political correctness are recipes for irreversible damage to the values of freedom and liberty, which are the foundation of our US constitution and other Western liberal democracies.
(...)
People who avoid facing the gloomy facts regarding Islam, have no moral authority to admonish liberated Arabs like me. Those who cannot confront Islamic doctrine boldly and will not allow themselves to question openly dreadful components of Islam are on the wrong side of this conflict.
I have often been asked to soften and compromise my message. I refuse to do so. I believe the way to solve this Islamic predicament is to highlight and confront it in a most truthful and subsequently painful manner. As we all would agree, at times, an acute disease must be treated aggressively rather than with a benign medicine like Aspirin.
Lastly, I will carry on my mission because I love Muslims. I dream of a future when all Muslims, especially from the Middle East, who yearn for better life outside their suppressive environment, can savor the taste of the freedom we all experience here in the US. This is not just Dr. King’s dream; this is a dream that should be granted to all humanity - including those in the Muslim world."
"Rifqa, says her lawyer, says that 'This case is not about me, but about thousands like me..."
From today's hearing, the most important thing to remember.
This is great stuff. Thanks to all the good people involved in the fight for Rifqa's life and freedom-- both absolute essentials to human existence.
DDA -- is there any way we can speak in private? I'm not at all tech savvy.
"Mohamed and Aysha Bary's lawyer is arguing that since this case has been "blown out of proportion" on the Internet
Muslims really do hate it when people can learn the truth about Islam...
Dear Robert & Pamela,
I commented before,but it was a spontaneous reaction under a tremendous emotional pressure!
What I forgot to say is, that your blessed work for saving Fifka's life and especially your presence in the Court hearing today, is going to be studied in Universities and hundreds of doctorates are going to be written on in it!
G-D bless you two.
However, I have found myself fighting on two fronts. The first front is against Islamists, a daunting fight indeed. But the other front is one shaped by too many uninformed individuals who like to view themselves as open minded “progressives”.
-- Wafa Sultan, as quoted by Hugh
To which (and whom) I would say: Welcome to the problem of PC MC, Ms. Sultan!
What she describes has been going on for decades, as is part of a larger tapestry of a sea change in Western consciousness over the past half century. As bad as it is, its very nature does give hope: For, if such a sea change could happen, such a sea change can unhappen. And thanks be to Allah for that!
Just saw the videos Pam posted of the press conference. Great job smacking them down, Robert! It occurs to me that in the lightwieght minds of people like Lufti, anyone who isn't a muslim is "brainwashed."
I want to add my voice to those thanking Robert and Pamela for the support they're rendering to Rifqa.
This is not a speaking engagement or a forum to publicize his new book...Robert is in Orlando on his own time and at his own expense, because today, that courtroom is the front line in this great struggle for the future of these United States (and - by extension - planet Earth). Sometimes our fearless leader gladly plays the role of foot soldier...and we should all be cognitive of this. He's not one who just talks the talk.
Jewcat - email Mr Spencer or Marisol with a message to be forwarded on to me; and - you can cite this posting - say that I am completely happy for them to give you *mine* (which, of course, they know - I've emailed them many a time with news snippets from Down Under). Because they know our real names as well as our nom de plume, and can match our names with our emails, they can't be tricked by someone who might pretend to be you or me.
If we each say 'I am convinced of so-and-so's bona fides and am happy to have my private email address forwarded on to so-and-so', then that can happen.
It worked with a longtime British regular at this site, 'ovinesongs'. He and I are now in one-on-one communication outside of this forum- which means we can be much more specific about anything we are up to.
I would certainly like to make contact with you - I've been reading and enjoying your postings since you first appeared here. We Aussies have to get a lot busier and better at coordinating our counter-jihad activities.
Are many of the folks you know, in your part of the world, 'on side'?
Robert and Pamela make me PROUD to be an "infidel."
You all would be utterly amazed at the remarks in Topix that are being left by those supporting the parents. It's almost like you can hear them picking stones as they write.
Then again the Columbus Dispatch isn't really giving this situation much in the way of real coverage other than more of a charity spot in the paper such as the last page in the 2nd section.
Now the last 2 days they've all of a sudden found room for this story yet as expected nothing really showing the plight of this young lady.
Unfortunately it's more of the angle the family is moslem they've been wronged. Since the local police have been assured by her father nothing would happen to her there is nothing to worry about.
I would encourage everyone this is the same police dept that alleged a young mans hand print in his twins brother on the wall of his mother's house was the single defining piece of evidence that would win a murder case.
Robert if you would like more local feed back from Central Ohio within the single newspaper please email me.
What happen to Rifqa's eye? I suppose it was just an "accident"?
To Jewcat & Dumbledoresarmy.................
Just to stick my nose in where it's probably not wanted. I have an idea, it can even be stretched out to common practice quite easily and would have everyone that wanted it in private contact.
If you set up a hotmail or similar web based DISPOSABLE email account using simply a number or random letters as the 'address', you can then post it up freely on any one of the threads here.
As here there can't be more than one 'Jewcat'. You can have them email YOU FIRST to the disposable account you cave with a link to an OLD thread here.
In that email they can give you a code that they will repeat AFTER an acknowledgement comment from you in the old thread they have previously given you the link to, so you can verify who they are.
The fact it took place in an old disused thread is good because it's 'random' and nobody else is likely to have even seen it.
You can be pretty sure just from that you have the right person but from there on in you can put in place as many verification procedures as you like to be 100% sure who you are talking to.
Just an idea, it might get you in contact quicker, with less hassle to Robert.
A very nice photo-link of the dynamic duo here:
http://jewishodysseus.blogspot.com/
As a thought experiment suppose that the parents were to assert that if their current religion genuinely calls for the killing of those who change their religion that they would themselves choose to renounce such religion, at their own personal risk so as to bravely defend their child from all threats.
Atheism is clearly an option for the parents, and Rifqa. There is no need to even invoke Christian this and Christian that into a debate about rejecting any superstitious nonsense. For myself all talk about any superbeing or immortality is like describing the contents of a vacuum. It is all nonsense, other than as a description of a volume of space or decibel level of hot air outside.
Rifqa, via her attorney, could propose that Mr. Spencer testify as a qualified expert on whether or not the belief system to which the parents pledge their allegiance affirmatively calls for the murder of anyone who renounces loyalty to such belief system. Special reference could be made to the notion that it is a penalty that could be carried out unilaterally by anyone who pledges a similar belief rather than as a result of a formal decision from some top level appealate body. If there were a decision by a foreign entity, as if for example by the top court for the nation state of Germany or Saudi Arabia, then the legal notion of "comity" could be considered. But just as the State of Ohio has not asserted jurisdiction, neither has any foreign state nor any roaming mere-mortal Islamic-Decider-Of-All-Things-Islamic. The absence of such a top level entity leaves room for Muhammad Lutfi to babble, but not obtain any hint of recognition to trigger the notion of comity. (Still, is every Muslim household, or Muslim dominated community, supposed to be a mini-state-within-a-state and accorded treatment as with comity?)
Rifqa has apparently already made her own judgment about whether her parents love their belief in a dead guy's supernatural powers more than her, and in his stale will that disbelief in his supernatural powers is punishable by death. If one is to respect Rifqa's judgment alone what might persuade her, rather than any judge's opinion? Suppose Rifqa's mother entered court with her head uncovered and wearing an ordinary American Power Suit and then proclaimed that she rejects Islam and all its tenets, and particularly the tenet that says that her own child must be killed. Would that satisfy Rifqa, at least as to her mom alone? What if Rifqa's mom perhaps were to simultaneously demand a divorce? I can't answer that, nor could any judge other than Rifqa herself.
ronled, your latter point I have made before. The use by the pro-Rifqa side of evidence that suggests that the parents follow an "extremist" type of Islam may be tactically useful for Rifqa's case in particular, but may set a precedent that will be dangerous for innumerable girls in the future whose parents wear casual wear purchased from the Gap For Infidels and who attend perfectly "moderate" seeming mosques and who, heck, don't even pray 5 times a day. In sum, it tends to perpetuate that line that has been set in stone by our prevailing PC MC culture, between Islam itself, and "extremist" appendages that mainly serve the purpose of protecting the body of which they are mere appendages -- a distinction that Christianity (and other religions) has too for the Equivalencists to exploit. Until we forcefully take a stand against Islam itself as a unique religious ideology that is like none other and therefore deserves to be uniquely disciminated against, we may win battles here and there, but we will probably be tending to aid those who want us to lose the war.
This would be a question for the lawyers.
Which state would the be the safest haven
for minors who apostatize and then are looking
to leave their current jurisdiction?
Yes Tilly,
It is fitting to compare the movement, that is starting, to provide safe haven to exmuslims to the Underground Railroad of pre-Civil War times. God bless all who participate in it especially Bob and Ms. Geller.