"Bawer argues that Europe is currently falling victim to a 'silent Jihad,' a hidden holy war perpetrated by radical Islamists on Western, social-democratic values"

In Bawer's works, he documents cases of European mullahs preaching hate for the values of their home countries, even advocating violence. He pointed to the uproar caused by the publication of cartoons depicting the prophet Mohammed and cases of judges giving lighter sentences to murderers who commit "honour killings," because the killer was acting within a different cultural prism....

Comming soon to a neighborhood near you...

Or was this article about Chicago?

Refreshing whenever a Western liberal shows that they "get" it about Islam. Much more work, though, needs to be done and, frankly, even assuming a large majority of Westerners eventually come to understand Islam's real designs, this is just the first major step. Getting rid of this particular beast in our midst is going to be full of complications and will take decades. Thorough discrediting of Islam (as Marxism and Nazism have been discredited) will have to be part of the formula to save the West from Islamic supremacist aspirations.

There is no good Islam. Recognition of this is paramount and key to preserving Western liberty and traditions.

Refreshing whenever a Western liberal shows that they "get" it about Islam. Much more work, though, needs to be done and, frankly, even assuming a large majority of Westerners eventually come to understand Islam's real designs, this is just the first major step. Getting rid of this particular beast in our midst is going to be full of complications and will take decades. Thorough discrediting of Islam (as Marxism and Nazism have been discredited) will have to be part of the formula to save the West from Islamic supremacist aspirations.

There is no good Islam. Recognition of this is paramount and key to preserving Western liberty and traditions.

"The left doesn't seem to know what liberal values are anymore and don't recognize a threat to liberal values when it's staring them in the face."

HEAR! HEAR!

As to the left abandoning it's old values, I think Mr. Condell articulated the same message in his last video. Nobody can get a message across better than Pat.

In case there is a remote chance that someone here hasn't seen it yet.

http://patcondell.net/

Enjoy.

I get it now: on the one side we have men who tie a guy's hands behind his back and push his face onto a table top and then use a kitchen knife to behead him; and on the other side we have Glenn Beck, who talks your ear off.

Now I see why Frumm, et al are so upset with Beck. He's a terrible model of a conservative. I think I'll go get nervous.

Sorry this is off topic. How do I send a story to Robert Spencer? There used to be a section in the side panel but that has gone. Apologies again for the off topic post.

"People going after Islam most often are associated with the right (wing)," he said. "The left doesn't seem to know what liberal values are anymore and don't recognize a threat to liberal values when it's staring them in the face."
...................

So very true. I imagine there are people who consider Bruce Bawer--openly gay, prepared to gad off to liberal Amsterdam--as a "right-wing extremist" because he is alarmed by illiberal Islam.

Kudos to Bawer for not buckling in the face of this. I cannot imagine that there are not liberals who see the danger of Islam--but are too cowed by the thought of appearing "racist", or "intolerant", or "Islamophobic"--or of allying with "conservatives"--which is the kiss of death among many liberals, no matter the cause.

I've been on the receiving end of a lot of this stuff myself. I have to remind myself how absurd it is.

Pot calling the kettle black.

Abdullah Mike, being a convert to Islam, lies like a rug, and then accuses Robert of doing what he does himself.

You're such a good little Muslim. (Pats him on his little bearded head.)

Urban II, to answer your question, you can send Robert an email at director@jihadwatch.org. Don't let the lyin' troll get you down. ; )

Pot calling the kettle black.

Abdullah Mike, being a convert to Islam, lies like a rug, and then accuses Robert of doing what he does himself.

You're such a good little Muslim. (Pats him on his little bearded head.)

Urban II, to answer your question, you can send Robert an email at director@jihadwatch.org. Don't let the lyin' troll get you down. ; )

Bawer is an American homosexual who measures the humaneness of a society, or civilization not merely on the base of its tolerance of homosexuality, but clear endorsement of its equal worth with traditional heterosexuality. He has been a little foot soldier in the liberal culture war against the Judeo-Christian fundaments of the West. It is his foolishness, or his narcissism that prevents him to realize that people like him are not entitled to lament West’s inability to secure the freedom and safety for him to indulge his sexual perversions. He had his role in weakening the West’s resolve to defend itself.
What opened his eyes to the totalitarian nature of islam was having his butt kicked by some “dutch” Moslems. I suspect if Islam had on top of its endless pathologies been homosexual friendly Bruce Bawer would not us bother with his ridiculously belated “warning”.

Now if only his brother Jack could be unleased on the muslimaniacs stirring trouble in NYC the whole mess would be cleared up in 24 hours.

By the way, Mikey really doesn't have anything substantive to add to this message board (sometimes it's amusing but...) and always goes off topic. Funny how he has nothing to say about the silent jihad and this articles accurate assessment of eurabia, but always willing to take a shot at Robert.

Bruce Bawer appreciates the danger that Islam poses to a Western society, but he is only willing to see half the picture. He never seems willing to confront the root causes of the cultural jihad going on in Western Europe. It is unarguable that Islam is a threat to Western civilisation, but it must also be noted that Islam was invited into Europe, it did not force its way in. As a liberal Bawer is unwilling to face up to the fact it is the amoral liberalism that he adheres to that has weakened the Christin identity of Europe and left it open to pro-Islam multiculturalism. It was the liberal-left groups and militant homosexuals that paved the way for hate speech inquisitions to punish Christian critics of homosexuality and other sacred doctrines of the Left. The Muslims merely picked up on the "hate speech" racket to silence their opponents. You cannot fight the Islamisation of Europe without first confronting the nihilistic doctrines of political correctness, multiculturalism, and secular hedonism.

Abdullah Mikail -"And by the way, Ghasan Elashi is not serving time for “helping to fund Hamas”. You have just lied. He was convicted for customs violations in that he shipped computers to Lybia that were legal to be sold and shipped there, only he marked “printers” on the customs label, and thus forged an official document… this is your projection bias, you steer everything you say and do to support the agenda of demonizing Muslims."

Matamoros replies- “In a second trial, in April 2005, [which you appear to have conveniently forgotten] Ghassan and two of his brothers were also convicted of conducting business with, and laundering money for, their absent co-defendant Mousa Abu Marzook, leader of Hamas. Can you explain how investing money for Hamas’s self-admitted leader is not helping to fund Hamas?”

“Of course, I can understand your reluctance. Ghassan Elashi was an influential figure at the Dallas Central Mosque, where your wife Nia was formerly chairperson of the Women’s Committee. Did you, like your fellow worshippers at the DCM (aka the Islamic Association of North Texas), help to raise funds for the Elashi brothers' defence?”

Abdullah - “I guess one needs to be sure in doing business that someone you are associated with has not been put on a list of an organization that was named as a “specially designated terrorist” entity…wasn’t that done at the special request of Israel? This kind of “business” thing may retroactively put certain government officials in the hot seat later on for supporting organizations that are now “specially designated terrorist” organizations. Time will tell.”
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2008/08/leader-of-muslim-brotherhood-linked-organization-gets-standing-ovation-at-democratic-convention.html

Hamas is part of the Muslim Brotherhood. CAIR is a HAMAS front. Abdullah is a CAIR agent, and we have proof.

Thank you, Matamoros!

Bawer argues that Europe is currently falling victim to a "silent Jihad," a hidden holy war perpetrated by radical Islamists on Western, social-democratic values.

Of course Bawer is dead wrong on this. The Jihad being waged is quiet, but far some silent, and it's being perpetrated by a super-majority of Moslems there, not radicals or Islamists, whatever the hell that means.

*** 33:21 ***

The left doesn't seem to know what liberal values are anymore and don't recognize a threat to liberal values when it's staring them in the face.

Liberal is a misnomer because Leftism always seeks to deliberate, to centralize, to control, to subjugate. Ergo Marxism's natural affinity with Islam, or Islamism, or Moslems, or whatever it's called nowadays.

I think Bruce Bawer's analysis of the current situation in Europe is brilliant. I very much enjoyed reading "While Europe slept". He sees our problems and our insufficient way to cope with them.

The "live and let live" philosophy practised in our European countries is a great thing, Prostestants and Catholics respect each other, the Jews are respected as the adherents of other relgions are, such as Hindus and Buddhists, we repect everybody's sexual orientation. But there is one big problem. All this only works with civilised people, and Mohammedans are not civilised. That's the crux of the matter.

Micky, when will you stupid w****r ever stop insulting Robert and our nice co-posters like Isabella? You're a nauseating Islamofascist, and should be treated as such.

Thomas H -Quite frankly I don't care how someone came to the realization of the dangers of Islam. Each to his own.If Bruce Bawer came to join the fight through the lens of Gay rights, so be it. The fact is,through his writing, he has become an important force in the battle for our civilization against theirs.Lets leave the true intolerance to the Islamists, and stick together against this insidious common enemy.

So, just to clarify things- are some of you implying that liberals, agnostics, atheists, homosexuals etc. should not be allowed to be part of the anti-Islamic movement? Very, very short sighted if you ask me. The more Americans and Europeans who are persuaded about the dangers of Islam the better. And for some, arguments coming from the left will carry more weight than from the right, for whatever reason.
There is power in numbers, and considering the scale of the threat, to diminish those numbers would be a great mistake. The threat of Islam should overide political affiliation, and the sooner the left as well as the right realize that the better.

Abdullah Mike,

Saying Robert lies doesn't make it so. Wishful thinking doesn't make it so. You think you couldn't make it as a Christian so you went Islam on us and now are ready to pontificate, ad nauseum, on how screwed up the rest of us are. Except I don't wish you evil; neither does Robert, and that's the difference.

I know you enjoy a good pissing contest, but since you have a ding dong and I don't, I'll pass. If you want proof, go back and read your exchanges with Robert where you accuse him of lying and he cleans your clock. All of those exchanges are well documented and preserved in the archives. This is not the Abdullah Mike show so forget about taking up my time to go back and dig up what you already know is there.

Tell us, if Islam is so peaceful and wonderful, why do you approach this site with a bug up your butt 97% of the time? You may be able to convince yourself that your bile-and-guile is a kinder, gentler way to deal with humanity but none of us are buying it. We know what the natural law says and it's written on your heart just as it is on mine and everyone else's here. Words have meaning and Muslims lie and obfuscate about those meanings on a daily basis. It gets really boring and you're not fooling anyone, just like your not fooling me with your I-found-Islam-and-now-my-life-is-wonderful routine. If you truly did find peace you wouldn't act like a lion with a thorn in his paw, day in and day out.

I know you did something shitty and you can't face it, so instead you found a "religion" where it was acceptable to commit that sin, because you could always change the name of it and get the members in good standing of Mo's Worship-the-Penis-Club to overlook it with a wink and a smile in exchange for you overlooking their atrocities.

I feel very sorry for you and invite you to get out of your own way, repent of whatever it is you did and come towards the light. Jesus is waiting for you with open arms and has already forgiven you. He's just waiting for you to forgive yourself.

Thomas H _I cannot disagree with you more in your opinion that Bawer is more damaging to our cause as a gay activist than he is as an anti-Islamic author and crusader. Have you read "Surrender, Appeasing Islam, Sacrificing Freedom?" Most of it consists of very well written arguments about Islamafication, which we have heard before, but put in fresh and convincing way. Relatively little of the book addresses any gay issues. This book, in my opinion, is invaluable. Perhaps you have already seen this quote- "Jihad watch...emphasizes the need for all the actual and potential victims of Jihad violence and oppression- Jews, Christians, Hindus, secular Muslims, atheists, whatever-to join together to defend universal human rights. There are many things about which we disagree, but at this point we need to unite simply in order to survive. We can sort out our disagreements later." Robert Spencer, in the "about Robert Spencer " section of this website.

Correction- Please add to my above post about Mr. Bawer ...than he is EFFECTIVE as an anti-Islamic author...

Hang on.

It's one thing to dislike homosexuality. It's one thing to dislike the militant types (the mark of every special interest group, it seems, they make necessary inroads, but then must latch on to trivialities in order to survive as an organization) ...... but it's another to accuse acceptance of homosexuality as an attack on Western culture.

Isn't Western culture supposed to be about individual freedom, as long as it harms not others?

As for it being "unnatural". Well, it does occur in nature (non-human animals have been known to exhibit homosexual tendencies) and in fact, seems to be a response to population pressure. Higher densities lead to Nature trying to find a way to cool the breeding rate down. Homosexuality is one answer to this problem.

In other words, it IS natural, and when significant in a population, belies a problem with the species itself.

I do understand that people who are offended by homosexuality tend to be of the camp that think that sex is primarily about making babies, and if someone is having sex with no chance of babies, then that's wrong. Well, it's not wrong if the population density is too high for the species to adapt to. Increased intra-species violence is also a symptom (and eventual solution) of this problem in nature.

So don't blame gays or the fact that women take advantage of birth control when it comes to the fact that the Ummah is outbreeding us. The trick to survival isn't a breeding war - it's about making the enemy side's death rate exceed the birth rate.

As for population control in general, it should be obvious that a smaller population of relatively well-off individuals is better than having teeming billions with gaping, hungry baby bird-mouths that must be fed no matter what kind of ignorance and squalor they insist on living in.

Populion reduction need not come violently. The European-derived people got that kind of thing under control. The problem is the myth of economics, that there MUST be more, and more, and more, and more humanity crawling on the Earth in order for it to do well. This is one of those things, like Islam, that must never, ever be questioned. But we had better start doing so, because it's one of the excuses that Muslim hordes are allowed into Western countries in the first place.

Nobody stops to realize that making first world countries more and more crowded would just turn them into third world countries. And allowing in third world people only exacerbates the problem. But they'll be allowed in as long as this "growth" nonsense is clung to just as desperately as the "Islam is Peace" garbage is clung to.

I would also like to add this:

Yes, those of us on the "left" do not trust FUNDAMENTALIST Christianity. Bawer is gay (but claims Christanity) and I am an atheist (who is straight as an arrow, sexually.) But it is possible for us to find a common enemy in both Islam and fundamentalist Christianity.

Witness Jerry Falwell - on 9/11 he chose to blame atheists, gays, feminists, "evolutionists", "abortionists" and all kinds of people ... everyone except for his fanatical, control-freak co-religionists in Islam. In fact, he seemed to see these Islamic terrorists as emmisaries from his God to punish the US for allowing such un-Biblical things.

We're supposed to trust people like THAT?

And John Hagee may warn you about the dangers of Islam (they don't want you submissive, they want you DEAD) may be heartening, but I have heard him speak, at the very least, UNKINDLY about unbelievers and homosexuals. However, I know he is not stupid, and is aware he is on TV where someone like myself or Bawer might be watching, and I shudder to think wha tmight happen should someone like him and his folowers be given power.

Sure, the Islamic threat might be dealt with .. but then it would be the atheist threat, and the gay threat, and ........

Look mates, as much as it might burn your cheese, our liberal present came from an Englightenment past. What that was, was when people came to realize that theocracies, no matter how good their intentions, always turn out BAD.

So YES, some parts "traditional Christianity" DID need to be weakened, to ensure a fair and just society for all, and they still need to be weakened in some areas. However, it's the general loss of these liberal Englightenment values that has allowed Islam to sneak up on us. We have forgotten that these values need to be defended against those who hate these values, and would turn the clock back - NO MATTER WHAT RELIGION THEY PROFESS.

So, rather than bash Bawer for seeing things through a lens with which you cannot relate, at least see that he sees a threat to not only his lifestyle, but to the free lifestyle of others as well.

I have a copy of Stealing Jesus, and yes, it's mostly through the homosexual lens ... but he did make a powerful argument defending his position in it. I just finished reading While Europe Slept .. and while there is mention of homosexuality, and what happens to them in Muslim-dominated areas, he also goes on extensively about women's rights, and about free speech.

All of us in the anti-Islamization movement come into it through our own lens. Mine is free speech and cartoons. I don't want to be told I can't write or draw what I wish because it might offend someone. Women's rights come in a close second, because I don't want to be told I have to be burqa'd up in order to avoid offending Muslims. Anyone else who has a concern, I welcome that concern, and it might give me an angle to think about that I hadn't considered before.

United we stand. Divided we fall. All of us who are vilified by Islam must forget their petty squabbles, and stand together against those who would side with Islam and its religious totalitarianism - no matter who they might be.

It's one thing for Western conservatives to formulate abstract principle about how homosexuality is wrong and harmful to society. It's quite another to move to the level of concrete policy and action. What exactly would these Western conservatives do to curb, or prevent, homosexuality? Merely through persuasion in the public marketplace? Or through laws that, like all laws, require the teeth of physical violence to have effect? If the latter, then that's where the rubber meets the road, and where the Western Christian conservative meets the Muslim in a bridge-building, D'Souzaite Stalin pact.

When the islamists have defeated the Right, they will go after the Left. Left are good for a gab. Let them try to 'reason' with the mullahs and see how fast that gets them jazia, slavery and death in that sequence. Thay have done it in the recent past and it will do it again.

yeah right ab-dullard. 1400 yrs of hate filled violence from followers of the non-existant moon god is not proof. The fact that every day these creatures kill more people than the ku klux klan did in 50 yrs is not proof. The fact that you creatures butcher each other daily { which is a great thing, should be more of it}, is not proof.

Thomas H,

It won't hurt you or the cause one bit for me to invite Abdullah Mike back to the place from whence he started. I've always known he left Christianity because of something he did. Many times when I've brought that up here he disappears for a time, so great is his pain regarding the subject. His lack of understanding of forgiveness is what drives him. He is more likely to give up his worthless and destructive cause than the average Joe Muslim on the streets of Cairo, if he had a little more information and he really did experience the peace he's always lying about having.

You fight jihad the way you want to and I'll do the same. There is no conflict here. : )

Thomas H,

It won't hurt you or the cause one bit for me to invite Abdullah Mike back to the place from whence he started. I've always known he left Christianity because of something he did. Many times when I've brought that up here he disappears for a time, so great is his pain regarding the subject. His lack of understanding of forgiveness is what drives him. He is more likely to give up his worthless and destructive cause than the average Joe Muslim on the streets of Cairo, if he had a little more information and he really did experience the peace he's always lying about having.

You fight jihad the way you want to and I'll do the same. There is no conflict here. : )

To all who with various degree of vehemence and lucidity and at different length protested against my characterization of promoters of homosexuality as the element inherently hostile to our civilization’s basic understanding of what is normal, good and moral I want to say that I am quite surprised by their breathless reaction. Had they controlled their indignation they would have seen that nowhere did I say homosexuals must be excluded from the ranks of those resisting Islam. Rather I am implying that the most practical and conflict-averting approach is the “don’t ask- don’t tell” mode.
I think that Bruce Bower’s choice to follow his homosexual tastes, whether congenital or acquired, must be his personal problem and he should not try to smuggle his homosexual little war against the basic norms of the West into the war against the most grave threat our civilization had ever faced. He is one of us so long as he doesn’t try to cook his dish of homosexual agenda on the heat of the conflict. Unfortunately, as far as I see this is what he does.
Spirit Wolf, I am sorry, I did not read your comments to an end. The absurdity of you opening assessments delivered with the air of long ago established certitude like: “ Isn't Western culture supposed to be about individual freedom, as long as it harms not others?”
or,
As for it being "unnatural". Well, it does occur in nature (non-human animals have been known to exhibit homosexual tendencies) and in fact, seems to be a response to population pressure. Higher densities lead to Nature trying to find a way to cool the breeding rate down. Homosexuality is one answer to this problem....

show most clearly that you have found the truth and the truth you found makes you anything, but free.

I have heard similar pearls from assorted “liberal thinkers” enough times to know that there is more of the sort to follow and there is not a remotest chance of communication.
Skimming with one eye revealed certain key words like, “Jerry Falwell”, “FUNDAMENTAL (capitalization is yours) Christianity”, “common enemy in both Islam and fundamentalist Christianity” …and almost Obamaesquely pompous: “…YES, some parts "traditional Christianity" DID need to be weakened, to ensure a fair and just society for all, and they still….
Well, what can I say except, maybe, “WOW!” ? – followed by a prudent retreat.

Kiphamilton and SpiritWolf,

Look what I have for you. Very well written. Much better arguing my point than my own comment.

A friend who has been following that little exchange concerning Bruce Bawer has emailed me two very relevant links. Apparently there is more to that man than homosexual activist. He is a nasty piece of work. "liberal fascist" would be not a bad description

http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/010788.html
http://www.takimag.com/site/print/1763/

Enjoy!

Sean, Doresarmy, Episte,

Thanks for enlighting me about SLAINTE. Lovely sounding word. I wonder if it will get me a free Guiness in Copenhagen's Irish Pub. Let's see...Will let you know.

Sean, DDArmy and Episte,

Thank you for enlightening me about SLAINTE. Lovely sounding word. Let's see if it gets me a free Guiness in Copenhagen's Irish Pub. I'll keep you informed.

Slainte, LeChaim and Skaal!

Thomas

No worries, Thomas H. I still love ya! ; )

And Thomas, somebody in a post above talked about Western civilization supposing to be more tolerant, especially when no one is getting hurt from the homosexual act. I guess he forgot about Jesse Dirkhising, Lisa Miller's daughter and all those Mormons whose privacy was breached and who were attacked over the Prop 8 vote in California.

Isabella,

I live in Denmark, so I've never heard about the cases you mention and had to use the google to read about them.
Good Lord, what terrible monstrosity committed against an innocent child by these "individually liberated" ogres.

I may only add that people who believe that ”Western culture is … about individual freedom, as long as it harms not others” have no idea about the meaning of culture and freedom. They can’t see that without transcendental moorings culture turns to savagery, and personal freedom must degenerate to hedonism and crudest form of sensuality.
Humans are born both with love of good and attraction to corruption. An individual may reject God yet continue being a decent person. But a God-less society must slide into cesspool.

So, you guys- should the homosexuals be thrown from high places or be crushed by walls? No, wait- I thought that was the other side who encouraged that.

Tom, your whining is annoying. You're the one sounding like the other side. "I'm a big victim because I didn't get my way. Whaaaa!"

'Sorry to step on your particular sacred cow but this is a forum where we discuss ideas and if something seems like bullshit we'll call it that. Perhaps you would prefer that the Muslims take over and drive all the Christians out so you don;t have to have any pangs of conscience ever again. Good luck with living you life the way you want to.

Oh, and please, show me a Christian who throws homosexuals off of mountaintops or crushes them with walls. Can't find any? Well then just make it up. Just because I don't believe that sticking your dick in another man's ass is a sacred and beautiful thing that doesn't mean I believe you should be killed for doing it. It's interesting how many societies throughout history didn't think so either. And let's be honest, you aren't looking for equal rights. You want absolute power over those who disagree with your actions and believe they are harmful.

You want to screw some guy? Knock yourself out, but I don't want to hear about it and I don't want my kids being taught that it's normal in a tax payer funded school that they are forced to go to if parents can't afford private, all in the name of assuaging your personal guilt. Society may have tolerated it over the past 30 some odd years but that doesn't make it normal.

Isabella-Sounding more and more like Abdullah. And what a lovely use of language in your "discussing of ideas"! And, being a bit shocked by the vehemance of your language concerning homosexuals, I must be one too right? Wrong. That, in your mind is the worst thing you can think of to call me, unless it was of course, an atheist. I don't wish to fight one enroaching theocracy simply to have it replaced with another. I am not homosexual. I simply don't loathe them the way you and Abdullah do.

Tom Paine, I don't loathe homosexuals and you know it. Show me where I said I loathe homosexuals, and don't project what you think I mean. Read the post. And which language were you shocked by? Was it the graphic description of the homosexual act? Why is it that people defend something and encourage it when they are repulsed by the definition of it?

Encroaching theocracy? We're in a post Christian America if you haven't noticed, thanks to the "tolerance" of the intolerable. And as Thomas H said earlier, it's that same not standing up and saying we don't honor and worship this regarding the homosexual sex act that has caused us to keep quiet and allowed Islam to come in full steam ahead.

That's funny that you think I sound just like Abdullah. I was thinking exactly the same about you, dear. So now what do we do?

Why is it that people defend something and encourage it when they are repulsed by the definition of it?

Perfectly put, Isabella!

...you aren't looking for equal rights. You want absolute power over those who disagree with your actions and believe they are harmful.

Absolutely true!
It is happening in front of our eyes and we are getting used to it. Some years ago in his sermon a Swedish pastor referred to homosexuality as one of the most corruptive forces which are destroying our civilization. Being a true Christian he, while condemning the sin, urged the believers to pray for the sinners. The local homosexual activists reported the “case” to the Swedish organization of homosexuals who had the man arrested and tried. I don’t recall now exactly, but he received a sentence of a couple of months for “hate crime”. I think the pastor appealed to the Swedish Supreme Court , but I am not sure how successfully. Regardless of the ruling of the Supreme Court the very fact that a priest can be arrested for quoting the Bible is shocking beyond words. It also demonstrates the extent of the political power and control that the liberty-hostile party of sexual perverts exercises over citizens.
Fascism creeps into our life by ways and means that only a few years ago wouldn’t even be conceivable.

Look- what we do now is stick together despite our differences and fight the true enemy, which is Islam, and which is the common enemy of all of us- Christian, conservative, moderate,liberal, Jew, and yes, homosexual. Conservative Christian arguments will not do much to win over secular liberals or moderates, and our number one priority at this point should be to bring as many Americans and Europeans into the anti-Islamist fold as possible. Conservatives only need to be informed,as once that is done they will need no convincing. The far left might as well be from the moon, so nothing will convince them. But Liberals and moderates need to be, and can be, convinced, and once that is done they can make up a very powerful ally in this fight. Bruce Bawer has an excellent chance of doing this, in a way that a conservative Christian oriented writer probably would not. Whatever the reason he came to the fight is not as important a that as an excellent, talented and passionate writer he can be a very influential force in enlisting allies. Please read his latest book. It is not oriented towards a homosexual agenda, but is an anti-Islamification treatist of the highest order. Whatever you think of his gay activism, it is not as important as his real ability to fight Islamic inroads into our world, and he does so in this book without it being dominated by his own personal homosexual rights agenda.I am sure he has convinced many more people with this one book alone of the Islamic threat than I or most of us could ever do in a lifetime. It would be a mistake to "throw the baby out with the bathwater" as it were.

Well that's very interesting Tom. Now you're in the "Rah, rah, let's all stick together" mode, which is exactly where we were before your temper tantrum and accusations about how those of us who don't value sodomy wish death for homosexuals, which is a lie, and I think you know that.

As for Bruce Bawer, go back and reread the posts. I never said anything about him, one way or the other.

No, but there were other comments which did condemn him, and I was addressing those. And your using uncalled for language about "sticking dicks up assholes" was not a temper tantrum? So, OK, let's not stick together. I think you would be better off sticking to posting on ant-homosexual rights sites than wasting our time here, and dividing our forces between the worthy and unworthy. In re-reading your post, I can't imagine how I came to the conclusion that you loathed homosexuals!

So are you saying that homosexuals are only defined by sodomy and since I don't value sodomy I hate all homosexuals? Grow up. You're the one that got your panties in a wad about my definition of the homosexual act, which, BTW, was accurate. If you can't deal with what it actually is, one wonders why you defend it so vehemently.

And you don't want to stick together because I don't happen to agree with your view of the world? That's fine. No loss there. As to you thinking I should stick to "posting on ant-homosexual rights sites," really Tom, who cares you what you think?

No, but there were other comments which did condemn him, and I was addressing those.

You’re talking about me?

Yes, I condemn him for his prominent role in destruction of the fundamental fabric of our civilization – the Judeo-Christian morality. The fabric without which the civilization can't robustly defend itself against its enemies, especially islam, and must die turning in its final hours into a caricature of civilization. Just as homosexuality is caricature of sex.

Thanks to the army of Bruce Bawers we are in these final hours and Islam, being a perfect predator embolden by our weakness and following the rules of Nature red in tooth and claw, moves in for kill. (I presume you are aware that civilizations live in a state of nature. Or are you?)

And I do not loath homosexuals generally - as said in my previous posting. I do pity them - that’s true. But I despise those of them who pose as freedom fighters after years of corrupting the very notion of freedom. And decency, and justice and tolerance.
Yes, Bruce Bawer is a shameless hypocrite and I do despise the wretch.

I think you would be better off sticking to posting on ant-homosexual rights sites than wasting our time here, and dividing our forces between the worthy and unworthy

Our time? OUR?!

Well, you did penetrate, corrupt and muzzle much of media, but thank God, JW is still not yours. Please, do restrain yourself!

Thomas H, Tom Paine gives us an excellent example of the non-reciprocal "tolerance" that the pro-homosexual mindset demands but refuses to give. It's his way or the highway. (Think Perez Hilton and Carrie Prejean.) Luckily, he's not in charge of who does or does not get to post at Jihad Watch.

Tom Paine gives us an excellent example of the non-reciprocal "tolerance" that the pro-homosexual mindset demands but refuses to give.

Very much like moslems. I am sure you have noticed the similarity

Yes Thomas, and that's what's so absurd about it. It's very obvious what you and I are both saying here but Tom Paine self righteously demands that we are wrong, we are ogres and we want the same thing for homosexuals that Muslims want for us, i.e., subjugation and oppression. What nonsense. Tom Paine knows this though. He is using the classic Muslim tactic of don't admit when you are wrong and then turn it around on your opponent and attack some other aspect of them to change the subject and take the onus off yourself. I'm really well versed in that one, since I watch the cause and effect of it on this site and others every day. And if people aren't willing to look at the root causes of where our countries have been weakened and why, we can try to fix our problems all day long and not a thing will happen. Not very efficient, and totally exhausting. And it's important to look at all the causes and not disregard our favorite ones in favor of self gratification. That didn't really work out well for Rome, or Constantinople.

Tom Paine never did explain why he was so taken aback by my honest, albeit rather graphic, description of the homosexual act. I guess it's okay to do it all day long and teach children it's wonderful and normal just as long as you don't ever explain what it is to the public, for crying out loud!

Yep, you're right. Very much like Muslims.

How're you today?

Isabella,

Homosexuals have a problem which is that regardless how hard they try to convince themselves that homosexuality is just as normal and moral like,… well…, anything which is normal and moral, they know in the deepest recesses of their mind that it is a lie.
And of course they know that the “straight majority” knows it too despite all the declarations to the contrary backed up by most radical law reforms which have so dramatically changed our society. Unfortunately for homosexuals no measure of social acceptance and reforming can smother completely that little voice in their heart. They don’t trust our tolerance, they want more than that – namely proof that we accept their moral equality.
But of course, if you KNOW that a thing is wrong then you also know that a proof of its rightness is false. That what makes them always frustrated and craving for increasingly more convincing proofs. And our elites, who ardently worship the new liberal, but jealous, gods of absolute tolerance, are only too eager to provide these proofs. So today they not only can marry each other, but also adapt children. But they want more in their push for total rewriting of moral standards on every level of society. Even primary schools.
Homosexual activists contributed mightily to the establishment of the new religion of absolute tolerance, which Moslems immigrants are so adept in exploiting to their and Islam’s advantage and our peril.
It is heartbreaking to see the appalling damage inflicted on the sane, beautiful and hope-sustaining world I once knew and took for granted. How awful to witness the mad enthusiasm with which the liberal vandals welcome every stab in the back of that world.

Well, enough of it. There still is a tomorrow and things need to be done.

How am I today? - you ask.
Went to visit some friends, listened to some good old recordings, saw a DVD “The Man of the West” with Gary Cooper – (wonderful movie) - had some good wine…,Well, I guess I am doing fine, thank you.

And I very much hope so do you.

Cheers,

Thomas

In following these blogs, it seems to me that it was not Tom Paine who had the "temper tantrum". The language used in the response to his admittedly unfair jab was uncalled for and downright embarrassing.

Embarrassing language or embarrassing acts? Why are you embarrassed by what you purport to be normal and acceptable? If your cause is just your embarrassment is absurd. Perhaps, like the liberals who align themselves with the peacefulness of Islam, yet don't know anything about it, you weren't aware of what the homosexual act really is.

Hi Thomas,

Glad to hear that you've had a great day.

Love old movies! My brother was aghast recently when I told him I'd never seen The Big Country so he ordered it up on NetFlix for me. (I wasn't around yet when it first impressed him as a teenager.) I must say it was something. Burl Ives certainly deserved his Oscar. But the last few days I've been down with the flu which means lying around and watching my comfort videos, which usually tend to be British. Out of Africa, Enchanted April and Chariots of Fire are the last three I've watched.

As to the homosexual thing, I agree with you. There is always movement in their movement. They can never sit still, never be comfortable with who they believe they are because, as you say, that little voice keeps yakking away. There is no peace and quiet so like the Muslims, they think that if they are in charge of everyone, there will be peace. They think that if they can force all of us to not think, not notice, not say anything, then they will be able to live their lives the way they want and feel comfortable about it. But we're not the ones making them feel uncomfortable. It's their own honest consciences doing the torturing. They can try and destroy Christianity and try and stamp it out of society, and that little voice will still gnaw at them.

I do feel empathy for them though. One business associate who I became close to in a networking group, went through the ringer with his boyfriend. They bought a million $ house together and then the boyfriend decided he wanted to be free to screw around so he left my friend and left him holding the bag, which in this downward real estate market caused the friend's credit to tank and put him into a very serious financial situation. Oh well! Too bad. I never trusted the boyfriend because of experiences I've had when I was with them. At parties or when we've been out to dinner the boyfriend was, very rude to other people, condescending, demanding and vindictive when he didn't get his way. It was actually a relief for me when he was out of the picture. This guy had everything the world could offer, a fabulous home, wonderful furniture and artwork, a high powered job that he loved where he called the shots over hundreds of people, and yet he was absolutely miserable, and took it out on everyone around him. Every time I saw him there was always something smoldering underneath. No peace there.

I also have a friend who I became close to when I worked long hours in the early 2000's and he came in at night to tune up and repair our company's software program. We spent many a night talking about life. I worked with him for two years before he ever told me he had a boyfriend. He had been married before and had told me he was divorced. I know the loss of his wife was a very painful episode in his life and something that he regretted for a long time. We stayed up until the wee hours the night he told me all about that one. When he met the current boyfriend he said he wasn't looking for a homosexual relationship, he just happened to fall in love with a man. I know his back story though, which is very complicated and my friend, while being very masculine, is also a compassionate and very sensitive man. When we get together to go out to dinner I've told him sometimes (which makes him laugh) that I always feel very safe around him because even though he has a very sensitive side I know if we were walking down a street and somebody tried to hurt me, he would take them out. He's truly a neat guy.

His boyfriend, on the other hand, is a piece of work. I believe he saw my friend coming a mile away. My friend loves his boyfriend and thinks he walks on water but I think he's a little shit, very manipulative and not honest. I don't see him anymore because he knows I have his number. Even though my friend has a very good paying job and is the financial anchor in the relationship, which allows the boyfriend to indulge his passion for fashion design, take art and yoga classes and not have to work a full time job, the boyfriend told me he resents the fact that my friend expects him to watch tv with him sometimes in the evenings. He mentioned to me desiring to be able to go out with other men; I don't know if he has or not but that doesn't sound like he's being very faithful to my friend. I guess he expects to be able to do what he wants whenever he wants and have my friend pay the bills. The boyfriend also told a straight male friend at a party at my house a few years ago, when the friend was married at the time, that he should try man on man sex, that he would love it. The straight friend told me all about it. I didn't think that was very considerate of the wife's prior claims to the husband's fidelity and it seemed an odd thing for the beloved of my computer guy to be chatting about as they smoked cigarettes on my front porch.

But hey, in a homosexual relationship the rules are, make it up as you go, right? So I guess you can do whatever you want. Why they expect us to just go along with this nonsense is beyond me. In this situation, the emperor is butt naked and I have no problem saying so.

Well, if anyone is still following this, while my "jab" was unfair, I did it to draw her out. The obscene "pervert! you must be one of them too!" witch hunt mentality, frothing at the mouth response of this harpie was even more than I had expected. No Christian "hate the sin but love the sinner" attitude here.

While I don't agree with the strident tone of TomPaines' posts, he is right about the witch hunt mentality. You know nothing of my opinions about homosexuality, or whether I "approve " or not. I have never given any opinion one way or the other. But simply by criticizing your language, and in earlier posts supporting Bruce Bawer as a great anti-Islamic crusader, I am "one of them" to you, meaning one of the hoard of "perverts" in your mind. You might be surprized at the basic conservative nature of my opinions. No, I was simply refering to the obscene nature of your response. It was not appropriate, not neccessary, worthless as a legitimate debating tool, and, yes, between the lines, full of venomous hatred- not just for homosexuals, but also for those who do not condemn homosexuality as you do. It was not worthy of Jihad Watch, and you should be ashamed of yourself.

kiphamilton,
Go back and read Isabella's and my posts again to see what she and I have actually said instead of screaming your preposterous absurdities.

But please, stick to what has been said in the "lines" instead of groping in "between the lines". It is not good for frenzied folks to dive into an empty space as the only thing they will notice is their own paranoiac fantasies.

I refer to Bruce Bawer as a pervert, because he practices homosexuality, which (according to my old Random House Dictionary) is a PERVERSION. I don’t hate him because he is a pervert.
True, I despise him, but that is because he is a promoter of perversion not just a victim of perversion.
That is a BIG difference. More or less like between a drug dealer and drug user. Not a perfect analogy, but please, don’t try to look between the lines here.

He is also a bloody stinking hypocrite when he tries to pose for a freedom fighter after all his rich contribution to freedom muzzling. He stinks. That’s it.
I or Isabella never said a word of hate against homosexuals. If you think so please quote. I only said I do pity them. If it makes you conclude "I am full of venomous hatred- not just for homosexuals, but also for those who do not condemn homosexuality as you do" then it is you who has a problem not I.

Now please read my lips instead “between the lines”:
I DO NOT HATE HOMOSEXUALS! NEITHER DO I HATE YOU! (whether you are one or not)

Isabella,

It is fun to read your letters. You have a very lively and effortless writing style.
I just thought than after reading your posting one can not be unaware of the great kindness, amity and concern you have toward your homosexual friend. But I wouldn't be surprised if KipH, or TomP, after switching to "between the lines" reading mode, would find it ...full of venomous hatred- not just for homosexuals, but also for those who do not condemn homosexuality as you.."

All right, let's leave it here.

cheers,

Thomas

Okay Thomas, I'll leave it alone after this post. But I do have to chuckle, because you pegged it dead on. These guys accuse us of "venomous hatred"? Oh yeah? Prove it! And sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not ashamed one bit to call the homosexual act what it is, but our two friends seem to be very uncomfortable with it. Like the jihadists who murder people in the name of Allah, they don't want anybody shining the light on what the act really is. The old "dick-in-the-ass" visual was merely meant to get their attention, and it worked like a charm. (Talk about being drawn out.)

As to reading between the lines I think I've made myself pretty darn clear as to what I'm talking about so making stuff up isn't necessary, unless perhaps our two friends can't defend their position. Neither one of them has acknowledged WHY they are so adamant about defending homosexuality, while attacking those of us who simply disagree with it. And for the record, no one's died here so the histrionics are little over the top, wouldn't you say?

I do love this one though: 'Well, if anyone is still following this, while my "jab" was unfair, I did it to draw her out. The obscene "pervert! you must be one of them too!" witch hunt mentality, frothing at the mouth response of this harpie was even more than I had expected. No Christian "hate the sin but love the sinner" attitude here.'

Now why on earth would I ever have used the phrase 'temper tantrum' in conjunction with this guy?

To paraphrase another favorite movie line from Gus in Lonesome Dove: "You girls better calm down or you'll get the drizzles."

You girls better calm down or you'll get the drizzles."

LOL!
You are one sharp girl Isabella the Crusader!
If not for my age and back troubles I would join any crusade under your command.

; )

; )