Barbara Kay looks around eight years after 9/11 and asks, Where is the "Islamophobia" we have all been warned about so many times?
If you're in Ottawa, Montreal, or Quebec City, be sure to go see Bruce Bawer. His message about Europe's capitulation to Islamic supremacism and jihad is immensely important. "Eight years after 9/11, where's the Islamophobia?," by Barbara Kay in the National Post, September 11:
Eight years to the day later, what are the cultural effects of 9/11? The first out of the starting gate and still leading the pack was the reflexive liberal instinct to throw protective arms around Islam and Muslims. The dust hadn't settled from the trade towers before it was pronounced from sea to shining sea that Islam was a religion of peace, and that Islamophobia was sure to run rampant in the streets, a sin we were all warned to guard against.
But like global warming, which has as yet failed to materialize in spite of so much fervent belief in its coming, Islamophobia never actually took root. In 2006 there were 8,000 hate crimes reported to the FBI in the United States, up 8% from 2005. By far the most were directed against blacks (2,640). Next in frequency were anti-Semitic crimes (967, up from 848 in 2005) - and that was before Bernie Madoff made the news. Gay males suffered 747 hate-motivated crimes, and - here a steep downward plunge - a mere 156 incidents involved Islamophobia (up from 128 in 2005).
In fact, Muslims represented the group least likely to be subjected to hate crimes, and the uptick from 2005 cannot be said to be linked with 9/11, for surely 2002 would have been the high water mark for Islam-based aggression. In any case, 156 acts of hatred - few if any life-threatening - is so nugatory in a country of 300 million people as to be statistically irrelevant. (I don't have Canadian statistics handy, but I am confident that if Islamophobic hate crimes stood out in any way from hate crimes against Jews or gays, our liberal media would have jumped all over them.)
Far from Islamophobia, what actually happened after 9/11 was a wave of Islamophilia second only to Obamamania for its lack of rational foundation and utopian faith in symbolism over reality. The more it became apparent that religious fanaticism was the motivating principle behind 9/11, the more any criticism of multiculturalism or Islam in particular was stifled, and the more we heard about Islam being a religion of peace. After every act of terrorism by jihadists around the globe, the media would warn of an anti-Islam "backlash" - which never happened. Instead a wave of pro-active Islamophilia gripped the west. The smarmy Little Mosque on the Prairie, an insult to the intelligence and to any semblance of social reality, is a direct result of 9/11, one of the more harmless manifestations of western self-flagellation, but in retrospect sure to be seen as one of the more embarrassing. The Human Rights Commission jihads against Ezra Levant and Mark Steyn via Macleans, also a 9/11 legacy, will be seen as more than embarrassing, as downright evil.
The media in general bent over backward to comply with the fiction that we have nothing to fear from Islamic militants in our midst, that jihadists are a complete aberration in a peaceful faith, that multiculturalism has played no part in encouraging grievance-building alienation, and that it is our biases that are the problem, Muslims the victims.
A conspiracy of silence around unpleasant news and facts emerged. Anyone for example writing a book criticizing Islam was unlikely to see their work reviewed in the New York Times. Cases in point are these great names in post 9/11 reportage: Bat Ye'or - Eurabia; Andrew Bostum's The legacy of Jihad; Bruce Bawer - While Europe Slept; Claire Berlinski - Menace in Europe; Oriana Fallaci - The Rage and the Pride (bestselling response to 9/11, but not favourable to Islam) and The Force of Reason; Melanie Phillips - Londonistan; Robert Spencer - The Truth about Muhammed; and of course Mark Steyn - America Alone.
What do they all have in common? Well, they are all well-written by credible, brilliant, experienced observers and scholars, and they are all impeccably researched, minutely documented warnings about the dangers of Islamism. Some - like America Alone - were bestsellers. They all tell the truth about the world of jihadism. And yet: None of them got a New York Times Book review.
The NYT only reviewed books that were hagio-Islamic in flavour by writers like Karen Armstrong and John Esposito, "whose sugarcoated representations of Islam should have been discredited for all time by 9/11," according to Bruce Bawer. There is a glimmer of hope. Bruce Bawer's just-published Surrender: Appeasing Islam, Sacrificing Freedom, which if anything is more condemnatory than his previous book of the stealth jihad that is undermining democracy in Europe at a now unstoppable pace, did finally get a positive review in the NYT this July and was even recommended as an "editor's choice."
Bruce Bawer is one of those former liberals mugged by reality. A gay activist, he left what he considered homophobic America in 1998 for the "tolerant" society of Europe. What he found was an Islam-based homophobia that put the homophobia of American evangelical Christians in the shade. The Islamification of European and Scandinavian society (he lives in Oslo) turned him into a savage critic of kneejerk liberalism that makes common cause with a culture steeped in homophobia, misogyny and contempt for individual freedoms. Bawer is coming to Canada and will appear in public forums in Ottawa, Monday September 14 and in Montreal and Quebec City Wednesday September 16 and 17. Bawer's is one of the most intelligent, passionate and credible voices amongst the politically incorrect sons and daughters of 9/11. Go and hear him if you can.
Yep. Still waiting for Esposito or Armstrong to pen their books explaining why they aren't Muslims. I mean, if Ibn Warraq can do it, why can't they?
Kudos to the National Post for featuring courageous writers like Barbara Kay.
The National Post, BTW, did show the 12 Muhammad cartoons back during that whole controversy; The National Post was one of the few publications in Canada to do so.
Muslim Integration?
Maybe all the Muslims who are about to march on Washington should use this opportunity to denounce religiously presented actions of terrorism, suppression of free speech and cold-blooded murder by misinterpretors of Islam.
If they would ally themselves with their current homelands, plus distance themselves from fanatical relatives, elbow room might increase dramatically for them. When they demonstrate against the oppression of other’s religious freedoms, inequality of sexes, honor killings, demands that their religious traditions become public policy in both society & the workforce, attempts at subverting Western laws & values (i.e. refusing to uncover their faces for driver's license photos or courtroom appearances): then they may have sown enough goodwill to ensure acceptance by the rest of the world.
As long as they justify and further their autonomy among us, they will be held in both suspicion & contempt. Become a part of the world, Muslims, instead of attempting to make the world become a part of Islam.
No denunciation should alarm the world that war is nigh…
I'm just nearing the end of "While Europe Slept"; I've had my own copy of "Stealing Jesus" for a while. It would be a good primer for anyone who isn't familiar with what's been said here; for me, there wasn't much new, but the lengthy personal insights into the European situation are quite interesting.
Well since so few crimes against muslims have been recorded in 8 years, clearly we are a peaceful peoples.
In light of this I would like to for Obhama to display these stats on the media and as a gesture of goodwill against our suffering I would like to see see more muslims allowed into the US to further aid peace in your country.
Why, Muslims, can you hate?
Is it fear or plain stupidity that Islamophilia is on the rise after 9/11, or a combination of both? I think that sucking up to Islam is really nauseating. We're digging our own graves. And all these Western hagio-Islamic "scholars" like John Esposito and his ilk are on the Saudi payroll. Karen Armstrong's approach seems pretty naive to me.
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"All the great traditions are saying the same thing in much the same way, despite their surface differences." They each have in common, she says, an emphasis upon the overriding importance of compassion, as expressed by way of the Golden Rule: Do not do to others what you would not have done to you. (Wikipedia)
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This is true for Judaism and Christendom and for Hinduism, Buddhism and other religions as well. But where is compassion in Islam? It's devoid of compassion, empathy, human kindness. Islam's adherents are even encouraged to commit crimes against the infidels and kill them wherever they find them. As Hugh puts it so well Karen Armstrong is coherently incoherent.
In his last article Hugh explains so well why jihad is on the rise. We let it be. We should research a lot more for alternative energies instead of resigning and accepting Saudi and other Muslims' oil dictatorship.
As for Bruce Bawer I haven't read his new book yet, but I enjoyed reading "While Europe slept". It's a brilliant analysis of the current situation in Europe. Europeans have overcome homophobia, but not the adherents of that backward religion/ideology who settled in Europe and think they have a right to impose their barbaric way of life on us. Malise Ruthven once said, that it's hard for Muslims to be confronted with overt homosexuality. That's none of our business, if they don't like it they can go, our borders are open. If they want to stay, they have to accept our way of life, they have to assimilate, no other way. The same holds of course for anti-Semitism, mysogenia and other Muslim aberrations from a decent lifestyle.
But living in Norway there is hope for Bruce Bawer, Siv Jensen of the Norvegian FRP, the party for progress is winning the hearts and minds of her Norvegian compatriots. She has already been labelled Islamophobe... Good luck to her.
I see the trolls have figured out the new system.
Thank you for another outstanding post of total clarity.
Start chumming my friend.
@Yoma
It shows that muhammadans are liars, since the unrelenting claim of jihadi organizations like CAIR is that islamophobia is on the increase.
This is yet another example of muhammadans being exposed as whining, lying, narcissists.
Yommy, are you crazy, why do you turn and twist everything, until it fits your stupid world view?
It's the other way round, you attacked us, we didn't attack you, let's get that crystal clear. After 9/11 you attacked more and more civilians all over Europe, lots of people had to die at the hands of European converts to Islam. Your ideology is simply evil, and I hope some day people will realise that before it's too late.
To : epistemology
Does ideology kill or does ideology in the wrong hands kill ?
Do guns kill or do guns in the wrong hands kill ?
Osama bin Laden used Islam to kill; islam by itself cannot make anybody kill.
So what made Osama bin Laden want to kill ?
What motivated Osama Bin Laden to declare "war" on the US govt ?
Here are the main motivations in chronological order :
(a) Osama Bin Laden read about the US govt. fire and atom bombing Japan in 1945 when Japan was already defeated as early as July of 1944 when Tojo resigned and Japan was negotiating concessions to the communists but FDR did not care about communists either killing tens of millions of civilians or that the crushing of Japan enabled communism to expand in Asia resulting in hundreds of thousands of US soldiers either dying horrifying deaths or being maimed, disfigured, deformed, blinded or paralyzed for life during the cold war.
(b) Osama Bin Laden must have read about US/Allied POWs in Japan and hundreds of thousands of Japanese children being terrorized, tortured and burned alive in the US fire and atom bombings of Japan and must have concluded that if the FDR/Truman did not care about the plight of their own US soldiers captive in Japan and the lives of hundreds of thousands of Japanese children, why should Osama bin Laden care about lives when strategic goals were more important.
(c) Osama Bin Laden read about the US government in the 50s overthrowing a democratically elected Mossadegh of Iran and eventually the Shah terrorized his own people in Iran, thanks to the military support given by the US government
(d) He read about the US government in the 60s, arming the Israeli government that used those very US weapons to collaterally kill palestinian children and babies
(e) He saw the US government in the 70s using napalm, agent orange and carpet bombing Vietnam and Cambodia, collaterally killing hundreds of thousands or even millions.
(f) He saw the US government in the 70s supporting cruel, murderous dictators like the Shah of Iran.
(g) He saw the US government in the 80s siding with the "christian" militias in Lebanon, the very christian militias that massacred muslims.
(h) He saw the US government in the 80s supporting cruel dictators like Saddam Hussein.
(i) He saw the US government in the 90s imposing cruel sanctions on Iraq resulting in UN reports stating that half a million Iraqi children died prematurely due to the sanctions.
(j) He saw that the cruel Saudi dictatorship was being supported by the US government , the very dictatorship that tortured dissidents who opposed the stationing of US troops in Saudi Arabia.
(k) He saw that the US government never left any country in which it had troops in ( example; US troops still present in Germany and Japan, even after the war had ended decades ago).
(l) He saw that warnings to the US government to withdraw its troops from Saudi Arabia were ignored.
(m) He saw that the only way to get US troops out of Saudi Arabia was to launch a terror campaign.
(n) He saw that his terror campaign against the US had failed and US troops still remained in Saudi Arabia, 9 years after the gulf war had ended.
(o) He saw that the only sure way to get the US government to withdraw its troops from Saudi Arabia was to launch an attack on the US homeland on 9/11/01.
(p) He saw that the US government finally gave into his demands to withdraw troops, only after the 9/11 attacks, and US troops finally left Saudi Arabia in 2003, almost 13 years after the gulf war had ended
loveverybody but kill the jews. Your disguised but hateful genocidal ideology kills. Does it not?
nabi ZK (pbum)
loveverybody. Did you just justify the attacks of 9/11? I thought so.
nabi ZK (pbum)
Seemzies. The fact that zero mohametans have been bothered in the US in 8 years since 9/11 means that WE, not the mohametans, are peaceful and tolerant. Having difficulty seeing that the mohametans are tolerant because we didn't go vigilante on them. Please explain again.
nabi ZK (pbum)
To : Zonie Kafir
I did not justify the 9/11 attacks.
Osama Bin Laden justified the 9/11 attacks and I , as any prosecutor will do in a court of law or any psychotherapist will do, is to lay out the motives behind the attacks on 9/11.
When a prosecutor in a court of law shows motive for a murder, does that mean the prosecutor is justifying the murder ?
The US govt invaded Iraq because it said that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction. That was the official motive behind the invasion.
By showing the US govt's motives, am I saying the invasion of Iraq was justified ? off course not.
Revealing motives is not the same as saying the actions were justified
"...or any psychotherapist will do, is to lay out the motives behind the attacks on 9/11."
Much you know about psychotherapy.
I did not justify the 9/11 attacks....
Yes you did.
Osama Bin Laden justified the 9/11 attacks and I , as any prosecutor will do in a court of law or any psychotherapist will do, is to lay out the motives behind the attacks on 9/11...
No, you laid out enemy propaganda which they use to justify the attacks. Did you think this was informative? Think again. We have heard all this drivel before.
And you discounted the role that mohametanism played because you have bought into the lie. And you are happily spreading that lie because it fits with your genocidal ideology. Muslims friends. Jews problem. If only we would help them kill the Jews we could have peace. Right? And America is responsible for all evil in the World. Right?
We were more than justified to attack Iraq and Afghanistan. We would be justified to attack Pakistan, Iran and Syria at this point as well as I'm sure you agree. Did not Saddam shoot at our aircraft during UN mandated air patrols. Is that an act of War?
Does Iran facilitate the killing of our soldiers? Is that an act of War?
Ditto Pakistan and Syria. Have they not killed our soldiers?
But loveeverybody, we can let the pot simmer for a while before we are forced to respond.
nabi ZK (pbum)
'loveverybody' has been spamming threads with its 'why did osama bin laden attack America?' spiel - the same spiel, every time - for a while now.
A sufficient rebuttal of its hysterical claims about Bin Laden's supposed motives may be found in the jihadwatch archives of August 22 2007 [which appear to be, alas, at this moment, unavailable: but just wait a few days and try searching again], in an article entitled
"Radical Islam’s war with the West is not finite and limited to political grievances — real or imagined — but is existential, transcending time and space and deeply rooted in faith”.
The article comprises a detailed review and discussion, with telling excerpts, of Raymond Ibrahim's book, 'The Al-Qaeda Reader' which comprises translations and analysis of what Al Qaeda say to their *Muslim* audience, in Arabic - compared and contrasted with what they say to their Infidel audience, in English. Raymond Ibrahim, of Coptic emigre parentage, is fluent in Arabic.
Here is part of the review:
"Fluent in Arabic and trained as a historian in the ancient Middle East, Ibrahim is currently a technician in the Library of Congress’ Near East Section, where he discovered al Qaeda documents that had not been translated into English.
"He has organized these writings into two sections:
"theology, *writings intended for fellow Muslims that ground al Qaeda’s war against the West in the traditional Islamic doctrine of jihad* {my emphasis added - dda};
"and propaganda, *writings meant for Westerners that cast bin Laden’s war as a just response to the depredations of Western powers* {my emphasis added - dda; it seems to me that 'loveverybody's' screed may be derived from, or related to, this material}.
"The documents in the first section make a sustained, coherent argument for offensive jihad based on the Koran, the Hadith (the traditions of the words and deeds of Mohammed), and the Ulema (past and present scholars of Islam)."
Whereas:
'The next section of The Al Qaeda Reader comprises selections Ibrahim calls “propaganda,” *arguments designed for Westerners that exploit all the self-loathing pathologies of Western intellectuals* {my emphasis added - dda}.
'Every distortion of history repeated in thousands of American college classrooms, every lurid lie peddled by the Chomsky-Moore cult is repeated by bin Laden, the only difference being a much more explicit indulgence in anti-Semitism. '"
Do we even need to ask what playbook 'loveverybody' is reading from?
I'm going to keep this short and sweet.
@loveverybody.
Why Osama bin laden your authority on history? If you want to be intellectually honest for once in your life I suggest you read a book called; A histroy of the english speaking peoples:1900 by Andrew Roberts. Every revisionist remark you made is either factually corrected or put into a proper context in this book. You a Prosecutor? Hardly. You've allowed osama bin hidden to badly misinform you.
Once you get done reading that book do as dumbledoresarmy said and go read: "Radical Islam’s war with the West is not finite and limited to political grievances — real or imagined — but is existential, transcending time and space and deeply rooted in faith." If Osama bin laden's actions still make sense to you after this you suffer willful blindness.
Zonie kafir stated :
you laid out enemy propaganda which they use to justify the attacks.
Comment :
Can you point out where I said the attacks were justified ?
Enemy propaganda ?
Enemy propaganda is agreeing with the enemy. I never once agreed with the enemy.
Zonie kafir stated :
Did you think this was informative? Think again. We have heard all this drivel before.
Comment :
Its informative to know what motivates our enemies. Its obvious by now that US foreign policy is what motivates our enemies to act.
Zonie kafir stated :
with your genocidal ideology.
Comment :
Nothing justifies genocide. Genocide is evil and terrorism is evil.
Zonie kafir stated :
Muslims friends. Jews problem. If only we would help them kill the Jews we could have peace. Right?
Comment :
Muslims and Jews are friends and you can find muslims, jews and christians living in peace in muslim countries.
Zonie kafir stated :
And America is responsible for all evil in the World. Right?
Comment :
The US govt's policies have created blowback. Blowback is a CIA term concerning the unintended consequences of US foreign policy.
Since 68 cents of every hard earned tax dollar is being spent on the military/industrial complex, the resulting effect is the tendency to use military solutions to solve problems and using military solutions is like take a jack hammer to a delicate surgery and so blowback is the result of all military solutions.
Sometimes the blowback is relatively small as in the attacks on 9/11 or huge blowbacks as in the expansion of communism due to WW1 and WW2
Zonie kafir stated :
We were more than justified to attack Iraq and Afghanistan. We would be justified to attack Pakistan, Iran and Syria at this point as well as I'm sure you agree.
Comment :
Nothing justifies war or terrorism.
Zonie kafir stated :
Did not Saddam shoot at our aircraft during UN mandated air patrols. Is that an act of War?
Comment :
UN mandates are only followed if the US govt agrees with them.
The UN should not dictate US foreign policy.
Saddam shooting at our aircraft was wrong, just as the US govt's military presence in muslim countries is wrong.
The solution should have been what President Reagan did in the 80s and that is co-opting Saddam Hussein.
Zonie kafir stated :
Does Iran facilitate the killing of our soldiers? Is that an act of War?
Ditto Pakistan and Syria. Have they not killed our soldiers?
But loveeverybody, we can let the pot simmer for a while before we are forced to respond.
Comment :
Iran's involvement in Iraq is wrong, just as the US govt's military involvement in muslim countries is wrong.
The solution should be to co-opt the Ayatollahs in Iran, just as President Reagan co-opted Saddam Hussein in the 80s
Co opt the Ayatollahs? You are an idiot! Unless, of course, you would like to explain how that is supposed to work. You gave short shrift to the dead US soldiers I noticed. Didn't even mention them. Disgusting. And Jews, Christians and Muslims as friends? This is so stupid. It's breathtaking. You claim to love everybody but wink at genocide. You can't run away from the logical conclusions of your position and then claim that you never intended genocide. Explain to Mr. Fanish (story above) how friendly the mohametans are. Your twisted viewpoint is nauseating.
nabi ZK (pbum)
Proxywar stated :
I suggest you read a book called; A histroy of the english speaking peoples:1900 by Andrew Roberts.
Comment :
The CIA acknowledges that US foreign policy can have blowback which is the unintended consequences of US govt's actions
Blowback has been the consequence of US foreign policy, ever since the US govt got involved in WW1.
Proxywar stated :
"Radical Islam’s war with the West
Comment :
Radical islam is not at war with the west.
Its Al-Qaeda and its affiliates that are at "war" with all those who occupy muslim lands
Osama Bin Laden said that he did not attack Sweden because his problem is with US foreign policy
and especially US troop presence in Saudi Arabia that Osama Bin laden had a problem with
Zonie Kafir stated :
Co opt the Ayatollahs? You are an idiot! Unless, of course, you would like to explain how that is supposed to work.
Comment :
Just as President Reagan co-opted Saddam Hussein, the Ayatollahs of Iran can be co-opted with the right package of diplomacy, security assurances and financial incentives.
Putting the Ayatollahs on a billion dollar CIA payroll will enable them to do our bidding at a cost which is miniscule compared to trillions of dollars on an unnecessary war with Iran
Zonie Kafir stated :
You gave short shrift to the dead US soldiers I noticed. Didn't even mention them. Disgusting.
Comment :
Every death, whether it be an American soldier or civilian or a palestinian child is regrettable and the best way to avoid deaths is to not send our soldiers deliberately into harm's way and not have a military solution to every problem.
Those who make war, do not fight it and those who fight wars surely do not want to make war.
Zonie Kafir stated :
And Jews, Christians and Muslims as friends? This is so stupid. It's breathtaking.
Comment :
Here is a video of muslims and jews living in peace :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2Skmj8q0Wg
Zonie Kafir stated :
Explain to Mr. Fanish (story above) how friendly the mohametans are. Your twisted viewpoint is nauseating.
Comment :
In every society, there can be tension with minority groups.
In the US, thousands of blacks were lynched in the 1890s and even as late as the 60s there were lynchings of blacks by mobs
You are a complete moron. This "discussion" is over.
nabi ZK (pbum)
Dumbledoresarmy stated :
"Radical Islam’s war with the West is not finite and limited to political grievances — real or imagined — but is existential, transcending time and space and deeply rooted in faith”.
Comment :
Radical islam is not at war with the west.
Its Al-Qaeda and its affiliates that are at "war" with all those who occupy muslim lands
Osama Bin Laden said that he did not attack Sweden because his problem is with US foreign policy
and especially US troop presence in Saudi Arabia that Osama Bin laden had a problem with
loveverybody, read The Two Faces of Al Qaeda by Raymond Ibrahim.
http://cicentre.com/ctstudies/Document/Two_Faces_of_Al_Qaeda.html
What you are citing is one face that AQ shows to the West. The other face, which they show to the Muslim world in Arabic communications, tells a different story.
Quote:
They were theological treatises, revolving around what Islam commands Muslims to do vis-à-vis non-Muslims. The documents rarely made mention of all those things — Zionism, Bush's "Crusade," malnourished Iraqi children — that formed the core of Al Qaeda's messages to the West. Instead, they were filled with countless Koranic verses, hadiths (traditions attributed to the Prophet Muhammad), and the consensus and verdicts of Islam's most authoritative voices. The temporal and emotive language directed at the West was exchanged for the eternal language of Islam when directed at Muslims. Or, put another way, the language of "reciprocity" was exchanged for that of intolerant religious fanaticism. There was, in fact, scant mention of the words "West," "U.S.," or "Israel." All of those were encompassed by that one Arabic-Islamic word, "kufr" — "infidelity" — the regrettable state of being non-Muslim that must always be fought through "tongue and teeth."
Consider the following excerpt — one of many — which renders Al Qaeda's reciprocal-treatment argument moot. Soon after 9/11, an influential group of Saudis wrote an open letter to the United States saying, "The heart of the relationship between Muslims and non-Muslims is justice, kindness, and charity." Bin Laden wrote in response:
As to the relationship between Muslims and infidels, this is summarized by the Most High's Word: "We renounce you. Enmity and hate shall forever reign between us — till you believe in Allah alone." So there is an enmity, evidenced by fierce hostility from the heart. And this fierce hostility — that is, battle — ceases only if the infidel submits to the authority of Islam, or if his blood is forbidden from being shed, or if Muslims are at that point in time weak and incapable. But if the hate at any time extinguishes from the heart, this is great apostasy! Allah Almighty's Word to his Prophet recounts in summation the true relationship: "O Prophet! Wage war against the infidels and hypocrites and be ruthless. Their abode is hell — an evil fate!" Such, then, is the basis and foundation of the relationship between the infidel and the Muslim. Battle, animosity, and hatred — directed from the Muslim to the infidel — is the foundation of our religion. And we consider this a justice and kindness to them.
[End of Quote]
As to why AQ would attack the USA and not Sweden, one goes after the prize, if one can, not peripheral targets. Were Muslims satisfied with only attacking small villages and a city or two in the outlying lands of the Byzantine Empire? No, beginning with Mohammed himself, who announced that desideratum, and continuing for eight solid centuries of fervent hope, sermons and prayers, Muslims kept trying to take down the prize in that era: Constantinople. And finally their fanatical desire was satisfied in 1453 (cf. The Conquest of Constantinople: A Jihad Planned in Prayer for Centuries).
I followed the link on the Conquest of Constantinople to Hesperado's blog, and wish to thank him for an insightful work.
I confess to being a most benighted Christian fundamentalist who believes that God's last word to humanity was when he became incarnate in Jesus Christ, giving grace upon grace (John 1). Hence, a religion which despises mine as _shirk_ and pretends to know better about Jesus Christ has no appeal for me. While I could never accept Islam as true (for obvious reasons), I can only say that I have learned too much about Islamic doctrine since 09/11/01, and find people like Massignon both baffling and repulsive.
As for the current wave of Islamophilia and Obamaphilia, I think that they represent a death wish lying deep in the heart of Western liberalism. May the rest of us overcome it and pray for (and see) the day when Muslims learn the truth about Abraham, Moses, David, Job, Jonah, John the Baptist, and Jesus Christ, and confess the last-named as God Incarnate to the praise of God's glorious grace--and leave the Great Mosque at Mecca as either a church, a museum, or abandoned.
The idiot continues to blather asserting absurdities as fact, with no demonstration or argument, and moving on to the next absurdity. And oh so very peaceful. Wouldn't hurt a fly.
nabi ZK (pbum)
Funny, ain't it?
As you were talking to me I've got to reply.
I don't agree with everything the Americans did in the past. I don't agree with the nukes on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and I don't agree with the war in Vietnam. But I have to be grateful to every American, I couldn't sit here playing with my keyboard, if the Americans had not freed us from the Nazis. I wouldn't have been born.
In his tapes Bin Laden never referred to Japan or Vietnam, he doesn't care about these infidels, he only referred to Mohammedans who allegedly are oppressed by the West. Where? Islam is oppression, repression, supression. However you put it. Jew Lover puts it so well, great contemporary American poetry,
Islam is evil, Islam is vile, Mohamed was a paedophile.
Everything the Americans did after 9/11 was absolutely justified, Guantanamo included.
DDA, I hope you'll include me in the list of your favourite posters, otherwise I'd be very sad, if you don't.
Epistemology - please don't be sad. I *do* count you among my favourite posters.
Hesperado stated :
they were filled with countless Koranic verses, hadiths (traditions attributed to the Prophet Muhammad), and the consensus and verdicts of Islam's most authoritative voices. The temporal and emotive language directed at the West was exchanged for the eternal language of Islam when directed at Muslims. Or, put another way, the language of "reciprocity" was exchanged for that of intolerant religious fanaticism. There was, in fact, scant mention of the words "West," "U.S.," or "Israel." All of those were encompassed by that one Arabic-Islamic word, "kufr" — "infidelity" — the regrettable state of being non-Muslim that must always be fought through "tongue and teeth."
Comment :
Was this a video or a written text ? because only Bin Laden videos are authentic and written texts can be from anybody, other than Bin Laden.
What is important is not what Al-Qaeda says but what they actually do. It is obvious that when Al-Qaeda was formed they concentrated on getting the Soviets out of Afghanistan and this was accomplished due to US military aid to Pakistan which facilitated the jihad against the Soviets.
Next, Al-Qaeda concentrated on getting US troops out of Saudi Arabia and having failed in doing that, Al-Qaeda planned to attack the US homeland on 9/11/01.
So by their actions, Al-Qaeda is not going after every non-muslim and in fact, Osama clearly said in a 2007 video, that he has nothing against the Jews and even praises the peace among Jews and Muslims in Morocco and he clearly states that he will not do to christians what the "christians" did to Jews in Europe during the holocaust, saying that christians have been living in peace in Egypt for 14 centuries.
ref : http://counterterrorismblog.org/site-resources/images/SITE-OBL-transcript.pdf
Hesperado stated :
Consider the following excerpt — one of many — which renders Al Qaeda's reciprocal-treatment argument moot. Soon after 9/11, an influential group of Saudis wrote an open letter to the United States saying, "The heart of the relationship between Muslims and non-Muslims is justice, kindness, and charity." Bin Laden wrote in response:
As to the relationship between Muslims and infidels, this is summarized by the Most High's Word: "We renounce you. Enmity and hate shall forever reign between us — till you believe in Allah alone." So there is an enmity, evidenced by fierce hostility from the heart. And this fierce hostility — that is, battle — ceases only if the infidel submits to the authority of Islam, or if his blood is forbidden from being shed, or if Muslims are at that point in time weak and incapable. But if the hate at any time extinguishes from the heart, this is great apostasy!
Comment :
Bin Laden wrote in response ? does anybody know whether it was actually Bin Laden that was writing ?
The best way to interpret what Osama Bin Laden says is to see what he says on his videos because any other means of transmission can be falsified and attributed to Osama Bin Laden
Hesperado stated :
As to why AQ would attack the USA and not Sweden, one goes after the prize, if one can, not peripheral targets.
Comment :
So you are saying that Al-Qaeda is a tiny organization that can only attack the US and not be able to attack peripheral targets ?
and Al-Qaeda is so tiny that it could only get 19 muslims to attack the US on 9/11 ? and was not able to get millions of American muslims to attack America on 9/11.
Hesperado stated :
Were Muslims satisfied with only attacking small villages and a city or two in the outlying lands of the Byzantine Empire? No, beginning with Mohammed himself, who announced that desideratum, and continuing for eight solid centuries of fervent hope, sermons and prayers, Muslims kept trying to take down the prize in that era: Constantinople. And finally their fanatical desire was satisfied in 1453 (cf. The Conquest of Constantinople: A Jihad Planned in Prayer for Centuries).
Comment :
Muslims taking Constantinople had more to do with conquest than religion, just as Europeans used to use the cross on their banners to go to war but it was more to do with conquest than religion.
But using religion on conquests is a good way to rally the troops
Ladies and gentlemen
observe loveverybody (hateverykuffar) lying and denying, denying and lying. It knows we regulars here are not deceived; that its attempts to push what it imagines to be our guilt buttons, are not working; yet it keeps on robotically trying to push us off balance and off the track.
Ignore it.
I trust Raymond Ibrahim's scholarship and knowledge. I do not trust 'loveverybody' (whose communications are full of hatred) as far as I can throw it.
I myself see a massive and very remarkable congruity between Islamic texts, their historic interpretations, and the vast body of records (made both by Muslim and non-Muslim observers) of actual Muslim actions throughout the entire 1400 years of Islam-in-history.
I see a system in which war and religion dissolve/ collapse into one another; and at a deeper level I see something quite horrifying - a de facto human sacrifice cult, in which the war is carried on, and sharia imposed and maintained, for the *sake* of the killing, often the *mass* killing. In which the killing is not a brutal means to some worldly end, such as one sees in the activities of, for example, a Genghis Khan, but becomes an end in and of itself, the raison d'etre for the total war; for only by ritually murdering a designated victim can the Mohammedan be absolutely sure of attaining paradise.
On September 11 2001 nineteen Muslims murdered themselves in order to be sure of murdering some three thousand human beings (who, being Infidels, were therefore Designated Victims) on a vast sacrificial pyre. Those who were murdered by ruin and burned by fire in the Twin Towers were just as much human sacrifices as any victim having his heart ripped out by an Aztec priest on top of a pyramid; with the extra twist of perversion, that the 'priests' performing the sacrifice killed themselves in the process; as 'martyr-murderers', 'murder-martyrs'. And Muslims all around the world, obscenely, rejoiced, like maenads who have torn a living body to pieces in a frenzy; if they could have danced in a circle around Ground Zero on the day, and gotten away with it, they would have done so.
It seems to me that if, without warning beforehand, and without explanations or apologies afterward, the United States had on September 12 2001 dropped an avalanche of enormous bunker busters like the hammers of God, upon the Kaaba and Great Mosque in Saudi Arabia - and upon Qom, spawning-ground of the Ayatollah Khomeini, in Iran, for good measure - and turned them into dust and huge smoking holes in the ground, the Muslim world would have been shocked into 'behaving', at least for a while. Evil understands only power.
'You ritually murdered 3000 of our citizens in order to symbolically pour their lifeblood upon the 'altar' of your black rock god of war and murder, and his murderous rock-spider 'prophet'? You saw each of those murdered souls as an express ticket to paradise for the murderers and the murderers' kin? That is your religion? Fine. Well, we shall cause your black rock-god and his priests of murder, to cease to exist."
Epistemology stated :
I couldn't sit here playing with my keyboard, if the Americans had not freed us from the Nazis. I wouldn't have been born.
Comment :
Germany's war aims were limited to Poland/Russia until the Allies declared war on Germany.
At the most ,if Germany had won, it would have occupied all of Europe and would have forced all Jews out of Europe to Palestine.
Germany's expansion beyond Europe would have been impossible since empires always have had limits to their expansion due to internal insurgencies and rebellions including assassination attempts on German leaders.
Epistemology stated :
In his tapes Bin Laden never referred to Japan or Vietnam, he doesn't care about these infidels, he only referred to Mohammedans who allegedly are oppressed by the West. Where? Islam is oppression, repression, supression.
Comment :
In his 2007 video, Bin Laden referred to non-muslims :
(1) he mentions that Jews were saved by taking refuge in muslim lands
(2) he mentions that christians have been living in peace in muslim countries for 14 centuries
(3) he mentions the genocide against American natives by the US govt.
(4) he mentions the US nuclear attacks against Hiroshima and Nagasaki
(5) he mentions the Vietnam war and the US govt killing 2 million vietnamese
(6) he mentions that millions of Africans are dying due to US policies favoring corporations that pollute the environment
(7) he mentions the suffering of blacks under slavery in the US
ref :
http://counterterrorismblog.org/site-resources/images/SITE-OBL-transcript.pdf
Epistemology stated :
Islam is evil, Islam is vile, Mohamed was a paedophile.
Comment :
Actually the Old Testament clearly commands genocide (Deut. 20:16 )whereas the Koran does not explicitly say to kill everybody within a certain region.
If you look at what Muhammad actually did, he did massacre one tribe of jews for treason, but he saved the women and children and he did spare the lives of all the other tribes of jews and christians.
If Muhammad had followed the command in Deut. 20:16 he would have committed genocide of non-muslims on the entire Arabian peninsula, but that never happened.
As for pedophilia, according to the catholic encyclopedia, a girl can be engaged at the age of 7 and be married at the age of 12, as Mary the mother of Jesus was married at 12 to Joseph, who according to apocryphal sources was an old man
reference regarding age of engagement and marriage in the first century :
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01206c.htm
reference regarding Joseph as a very old man at the time of marriage to the 12 year old Mary :
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08504a.htm
Epistemology stated :
Everything the Americans did after 9/11 was absolutely justified, Guantanamo included.
Comment :
Nothing justifies war.
War is like taking a sledgehammer to a delicate surgery and war is the reason we had the events of 9/11 which was blowback for the gulf war in 1991 in which US troops were stationed in Saudi Arabia which in turn led to the terror campaign by Al-Qaeda throughout the 90s, culminating in the attacks on 9/11.
Neither war or terrorism can ever be justified for any reason.
Dumbledoresarmy states :
I myself see a massive and very remarkable congruity between Islamic texts, their historic interpretations, and the vast body of records (made both by Muslim and non-Muslim observers) of actual Muslim actions throughout the entire 1400 years of Islam-in-history.
Comment :
Actual muslim actions have saved jews from the holocaust
ref : http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112384539
There is no reason for Jews to move to muslim lands if the muslims were oppressive but the record shows that jews did move to muslim lands
ref : http://www.zionism.netfirms.com/Tamimi.html
Dumbledoresarmy states :
I see a system in which war and religion dissolve/ collapse into one another; and at a deeper level I see something quite horrifying - a de facto human sacrifice cult, in which the war is carried on, and sharia imposed and maintained, for the *sake* of the killing, often the *mass* killing.
Comment :
Why would muslims want to kill non-muslims when non-muslims were a source of income through the muslim tax system ?
Under the first caliphs and the Ummayad dynasty, conversion was discouraged.
There are claims that there were several instances in which entire communities wanted to convert to islam, and were prevented because they were more useful as taxpayers.
ref :
http://wapedia.mobi/en/Islam_and_other_religions#1.
Dumbledoresarmy states :
On September 11 2001 nineteen Muslims murdered themselves in order to be sure of murdering some three thousand human beings (who, being Infidels, were therefore Designated Victims) on a vast sacrificial pyre. Those who were murdered by ruin and burned by fire in the Twin Towers were just as much human sacrifices as any victim having his heart ripped out by an Aztec priest on top of a pyramid; with the extra twist of perversion, that the 'priests' performing the sacrifice killed themselves in the process; as 'martyr-murderers', 'murder-martyrs'.
Comment :
Why just 19 muslims ?
Could it be because Osama Bin Laden could not convince the millions of American muslims to attack America on 9/11/01 ?
Here is a video of conservative Saudi Arabia in which nobody wants to be a terrorist :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SviggsyPaN8&feature=fvw
Dumbledoresarmy states :
And Muslims all around the world, obscenely, rejoiced, like maenads who have torn a living body to pieces in a frenzy; if they could have danced in a circle around Ground Zero on the day, and gotten away with it, they would have done so.
Comment :
A few muslims rejoiced in Palestine, but in Iran, they held a candle light vigil for the victims of 9/11
ref :
http://groups.colgate.edu/aarislam/response.htm
Muslims around the world sympathized :
http://groups.colgate.edu/aarislam/response.htm#Expressions of grief and sympathy in the Arab and Muslim world:
Ah. loverboy, but we are such an implacable enemy. The nabi prefers the words of dda...
'You ritually murdered 3000 of our citizens in order to symbolically pour their lifeblood upon the 'altar' of your black rock god of war and murder, and his murderous rock-spider 'prophet'? You saw each of those murdered souls as an express ticket to paradise for the murderers and the murderers' kin? That is your religion? Fine. Well, we shall cause your black rock-god and his priests of murder, to cease to exist."
Kumbaya be gone!
nabi ZK (pbum)
...what a dope...
dda. You could not have expressed my sentiments more clearly. Thank you.
nabi ZK
As a peacemaker, you will be blessed, as Jesus said, "blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called children of God ".
What a sanctimonious little toad you are loverboy.
However...
Nice bit of Aramco propaganda there. Funny they didn't realize that their government pulled the trigger on both Iraq wars. It is and was official policy to deflect blame for those wars to the US. But Saudis asked us to protect them in the first case and to resolve their security problems vis a vis Saddam in the second. But you believe that our troops were and occupation. So you are a fool.
nabi ZK (pbum)
Zonie Kafir stated :
But Saudis asked us to protect them in the first case and to resolve their security problems vis a vis Saddam in the second. But you believe that our troops were and occupation. So you are a fool.
Comment :
3000 Americans would have been alive on 9/11/01 if the US govt did not try to convince the cruel Saudi dictatorship of a "threat" from Saddam when Saddam from the very beginning was in consultation with the US govt before the invasion of Kuwait giving Saddam the impression that the US govt's policy regarding the Iraq-Kuwait conflict was not a matter the US would be concerned with.
Since Saddam was so concerned about US policy in the middle east, do you think he would have thought of invading Saudi Arabia after taking Kuwait ?
The whole world would be up in arms if Saddam decided to take Saudi Arabia and even if the impossible happened and Saddam did take over Saudi Arabia, Saddam being a secularist would have curbed the power of the islamist fundamentalist in Saudi Arabia and sold cheap oil to the west, as he did during the Arab oil embargo of the 70s in which he broke the embargo by selling cheap oil to the west.
Saddam, before the invasion of Kuwait, sought to assure the US govt that oil will still flow freely and he has never it the past restricted the flow of oil.
ref : http://firstuualton.org/Sermon_files/anotherdesertwarrior.htm
I understand your policy of co-opting cruel dictatorships like the Saudis and Kuwaitis but not with military forces on the ground, especially when US intelligence would have revealed that the fundamentalists in Saudi Arabia were opposed to US troop presence.
Removing one cruel dictatorship and replacing it with another cruel dictatorship in Kuwait and protecting another cruel dictatorship in Saudi Arabia through military means is dangerous and the blowback resulted in the attacks on 9/11.
Dictatorships usually do not have the consent of the people, so stationing our troops and knowing that the consent of the people was not taken into consideration, is very dangerous
Loveverybody
close your mouth.
You are absolutely beneath contempt, to continue trying to make excuses for the utterly indefensible.
You deny that Muslim communities of many different ethnic backgrounds celebrated - wildly, hysterically, obscenely - after the September 11th attacks? Well, I have seen far too much evidence, from widely disparate sources and places, to believe your nonsensical, laughable denial for one nanosecond.
And as for your continuing refusal to accept that Muslim societies treat non-Muslim minorities like sh*t:
I have read the mountain of documentation in Legacy of Jihad and in Legacy of Islamic Antisemitism and in Bat Yeor's monumental studies; documentation from Muslim as well as non-Muslim sources. Life inside dar al Islam, for the non-Muslims who survived the initial jihad assault and became dhimmis, was a condition of grinding humiliation, degradation, and perpetual physical insecurity.
As regards Christians living in 'peace': the souls of a million murdered Armenians - murdered in the name of allah the eater of souls - say that you are a liar, a damnable liar. Christians did not live in peace in Muslim lands.
The souls of millions of murdered Hindus and Buddhists - whose deaths were boasted about, celebrated, gloated over, by their Muslim murderers - say that you are a liar, a damnable liar.
Sure, Muslims kept some dhimmis around because they could make use of them - the same way that farmers keep cattle.
To be a dhimmi was to be - judging from the amply documented evidence of history - a despised Untermensch, stomped on, spat upon, cursed daily, shoved into the gutter by the Ubermensch Muslims; you were a combination of milch cow (to be squeezed for whatever could be got out of you), chew toy, punching bag, scapegoat and - I repeat - source of victims for de facto human sacrifice, every time allah needed feeding with some fresh human blood.
No matter how low the dhimmis grovelled, no matter how much 'protection' money they paid, sooner or later the rumour would spread that they were getting too uppity, that in this or that way they had broken the draconian and baroque 'Rules for Dhimmis'...and then the orgy of mob violence would explode like a volcano.
I would like to tie you to a chair, you sociopath, and *make* you listen to the first-hand testimony of Sudanese Christians, Serb Christians, Pakistani Christians and Hindus and Sikhs, Bangladeshi Hindus and Christians and Buddhists, southern Thai Buddhists, Indonesian Christians and Buddhists, and Jews who escaped from the Muslim lands...from places like Yemen, or Egypt, or Libya, or Iraq, for example. I would make you listen in excruciating detail to the sufferings that Muslims - sadistic, domineering, cruel and arrogant Muslims, bullying Muslims - inflicted upon them and upon their families, day in and day out, for years, for decades. And I dare you to tell them that their sufferings and those of their ancestors were either trivial or imaginary.
Shut up.
Just. shut. up.
Dumbledoresarmy stated :
You deny that Muslim communities of many different ethnic backgrounds celebrated - wildly, hysterically, obscenely - after the September 11th attacks? Well, I have seen far too much evidence, from widely disparate sources and places, to believe your nonsensical, laughable denial for one nanosecond.
Comment :
You can always find 10% of people in any community, whether muslim or non-muslim who are radical in their outlook.
Prominent christians in the US said that the attacks on 9/11 was God's judgement on the US.
Pat Robertson and the Rev. Jerry Falwell seemed to be resting the blame for the World Trade Center and Pentagon attacks on 9/11/01 on their political and moral enemies rather than the terrorists themselves. Others simply repeat their remarks that gays, abortionists, the ACLU, and the People For the American Way should share in the blame for a spiritual vulnerability that allowed the attack to take place.
ref :
http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/f/falwell-robertson-wtc.htm
ref :
http://www.basden.demon.co.uk/xn/discussion/usa.html#sanction
How do you explain the candle light vigils in Iran in sympathy for the victims of 9/11 ?
How do you explain muslims from around the world showing grief and sympathy ?
ref :
http://groups.colgate.edu/aarislam/response.htm
Muslims around the world sympathized :
http://groups.colgate.edu/aarislam/response.htm#Expressions of grief and sympathy in the Arab and Muslim world:
Dumbledoresarmy stated :
And as for your continuing refusal to accept that Muslim societies treat non-Muslim minorities like sh*t:
... Life inside dar al Islam, for the non-Muslims who survived the initial jihad assault and became dhimmis, was a condition of grinding humiliation, degradation, and perpetual physical insecurity.
Comment :
In any society minorities might at times be discriminated against.
Blacks did not attain full human rights until the 1960s and even today discrimination against minorities in the US still exists.
Minorities at times can be in physical danger in the US.
Thousands of blacks were lynched by mobs in the 1890s and lynchings still continued till the 60s.
ref :
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/shipp/lynchingyear.html
How do you explain muslims helping Jews during the holocaust ?
ref :
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112384539
If muslim lands were oppressive, how do you explain Jews moving to muslim lands ?
ref : http://www.zionism.netfirms.com/Tamimi.html
Dumbledoresarmy stated :
As regards Christians living in 'peace': the souls of a million murdered Armenians - murdered in the name of allah the eater of souls - say that you are a liar, a damnable liar. Christians did not live in peace in Muslim lands.
Comment :
You can visit most muslim countries and find christians, jews and muslims living in peace
How do you explain Iranian Jews turning down Israel's cash incentive offer in order to entice Iranian Jews to move to israel ?
ref :
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/jul/12/israel.iran
Dumbledoresarmy stated :
The souls of millions of murdered Hindus and Buddhists - whose deaths were boasted about, celebrated, gloated over, by their Muslim murderers - say that you are a liar, a damnable liar.
No matter how low the dhimmis grovelled, no matter how much 'protection' money they paid, sooner or later the rumour would spread that they were getting too uppity, that in this or that way they had broken the draconian and baroque 'Rules for Dhimmis'...and then the orgy of mob violence would explode like a volcano.
Comment :
Its a fact that non-muslims have committed genocide by the hundreds of millions compared to the genocides committed in muslim lands
Just the Chinese genocide alone could have been up to 78 million
ref : http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/dictat.html
The European invasion of Australia started in 1788. The population of Aboriginals in the country was approximately 750,000. By 1911, the number had been reduced to 31,000. Most were decimated by diseases introduced by the invaders, against which the Aboriginals had no defense. Some 20,000 were murdered.
In those days, "The Sydney Herald claimed that blacks had 'bestowed no labour upon the land-their ownership, their right, was nothing more than that of the Emu or the Kangaroo.'
Australian Courts rejected Aboriginal evidence, because non-Christians could not swear oaths, and white killers used 'the defense that Aboriginal morality did not exist'.
The extermination of Aboriginals in Tasmania was particularly brutal; many white settlers would shoot them on sight.
In 1830, the remaining 300 Aboriginals were ethnically cleansed from Tasmania. They were captured and transferred to Flinders Island. They signed a treaty which guaranteed their later return. It was never honored. By 1843, only 50 remained alive.
The atrocities continued into the 20th century. Between 1910 and 1970, "between one in three and one in ten indigenous children were forcibly removed from their families." They were placed with white families in order to absorb "these people into the general population."
Aboriginals were finally granted citizenship in 1967. They still await an apology from the Government of Australia.
ref :
http://www.religioustolerance.org/genocide2.htm
Dumbledoresarmy stated :
And I dare you to tell them that their sufferings and those of their ancestors were either trivial or imaginary.
Comment :
Suffering either in muslim lands or non-muslim lands is regrettable but the fact still remains that minorities and others in non-muslim lands have suffered much much more than minorities in muslim lands.
IN CLOSING :
If you were to visit most muslim countries, you will see that muslims, christians and jews do live in peace.
Have you visited any muslim country ?
I have visited Malaysia and saw that christians and muslims are friends in that country
What filth. What lies. And a new identity for us also. No longer 17 martyrs. So when the king asks us for protection we should seek out the camel driver to see if that would be OK. You are a lying piece of filth, and not only a total moron. And Mr. 17 only has the right to decide who is a dictator. And there's lots of Jews in Iran. Trust the filth and lies of Mr. 17. The nabi could go on because everything you have brought to the table is a lie or just stupid. You are a horse's ass.
nabi ZK (pbum)
Oh yes. And your prophet eats dog poo in hell. One day you may have the honor of feeding it to him.
nabi ZK (pbum)
Zpnie Kafir stated :
Oh yes. And your prophet eats dog poo in hell. One day you may have the honor of feeding it to him.
Comment :
Jesus said "love your enemies" and not "love only those who love you back "
ZK - loveverybody, being a Muslim supremacist, is attempting a sort of jiujitsu - having no intention whatever of practising reciprocity, it wants to stamp on the faces of the Christians, whilst telling them that they must not resist or try to stop it from so doing, because if they resisted, or if they complained, that would be against their (the christians') religion. But if the Muslim thinks our religion's teachings are false, why does it tell us we must follow those teachings? One reason only: because Christians who don't resist Jihad and Sharia, can be more easily and quickly subjugated, raped, robbed and killed. The Muslim doesn't care two hoots what we believe; it despises our beliefs; it only seizes upon whatever it thinks will serve its purposes.
Loveverybody needs to learn that loving my enemy doesn't mean I must grovel and flatter that enemy. or tell him (falsely) that his deeds are good and just, when those deeds are in fact evil and unjust. Loving someone sometimes means telling them the truth about their bad behaviour, even if the truth hurts. (Of course, in the shame-honour Mohammedan society, nobody *EVER* owns up to having done anything wrong; because owning up to wrongdoing is seen as weak and stupid).
And our Mohammedan dementor keeps right on with the tu quoque and the denials and the lies; in particular, the massive, grotesque lie about how in Muslim countries Jews and Christians and Muslims live 'in peace'. (Perhaps what it means by 'living in peace', is that the Jews in Persia and Yemen and the Christians in a whole slew of Mohammedan lands are thoroughly crushed and Muslims can do whatever they please to them, without encountering any real resistance?)
It says this (I write on 18 September) after we have just this month heard about Muslims ecstatically celebrating the burning-down of a Coptic church in Egypt, and about a Muslim going around stabbing Christians in Egypt, and last month Muslim mobs attacked Christians in Pakistan and burnt people alive in their homes, and ...the last Jews are leaving Yemen because they are being threatened and attacked and one of them was murdered.
Every time the dementor trots out its nonsensical claim that everything is wonderful in Muslim lands for the Jews and the Christians, I am sickened by the magnitude of the lie.
And its very typical tu quoque about Australian colonial history misses one simple point. The sins of nominally Christian European colonial powers were carried out in DISOBEDIENCE to the central tenets of the Gospels and the example of Jesus. Jesus gave NO command to his disciples to conquer, or to subjugate, or to create any sort of earthly empire anywhere.
(BTW: the current Prime Minister did give an apology, in Parliament, in February 2008, to those Aboriginal people who were removed from their families, 'the stolen generation'. He said Sorry. I have no doubt that the injustices of the past will be slowly undone, and the hurts healed, in Australia.
But the Turkish Muslims have not yet even begun to say Sorry to the Armenians, let alone to all those peoples on whom the Ottoman Turks inflicted the horrors of the devshirme - I doubt very much they ever will; Nonie Darwish said that being Arab [she should have said, being Muslim] means *never* saying sorry.)
The monstrous cruelties of jihad conquest were carried out by Muslims in OBEDIENCE to the commands in the Quran and in conformity with the example of Mohammed. And Muslims don't regard all the killing and pillaging and enslaving as wrong, in the slightest. They are *proud* of it. They boasted of it at the time, and have been boasting about it, ever since.
To Dumbledoresarmy :
Can you answer the following 9 questions :
(1) how do you explain prominent christians in the US saying that the attacks on 9/11 was God's judgement on the US ?
ref :
http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/f/falwell-robertson-wtc.htm
ref :
http://www.basden.demon.co.uk/xn/discussion/usa.html#sanction
(2) How do you explain the candle light vigils in Iran in sympathy for the victims of 9/11 ?
(3) How do you explain muslims from around the world showing grief and sympathy ?
ref :
http://groups.colgate.edu/aarislam/response.htm
Muslims around the world sympathized :
http://groups.colgate.edu/aarislam/response.htm#Expressions of grief and sympathy in the Arab and Muslim world:
(4) How do you explain muslims helping Jews during the holocaust ?
ref :
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112384539
(5) If muslim lands were oppressive, how do you explain Jews moving to muslim lands ?
ref : http://www.zionism.netfirms.com/Tamimi.html
(6) How do you explain Iranian Jews turning down Israel's cash incentive offer in order to entice Iranian Jews to move to israel ?
ref :
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/jul/12/israel.iran
(7) If Christians are in disobedience and muslims are in obedience, how do you explain the fact that non-muslims have committed genocide by the hundreds of millions compared to the genocides committed in muslim lands
ref : http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/dictat.html
(8) Have you visited any muslim country ?
(9) how do you explain the followig video in which an orthodox Jew says that Jews have lived in peace under muslim rule ?
ref :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skbExDtFiu4&feature=PlayList&p=86E0DC87E5A6C8F3&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=23
To : Dumbledoresarmy
If there is so much enmity between Muslims and non-muslims, how do you explain so many non-muslim brands being present in the following video from Saudi Arabia ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIYUXdR6fkI&feature=channel
Memo to any person who has stumbled upon this old thread in the course of googling, and may have persevered to this point: it should be noted that 'loveverybody' is conspicuously absent from any thread featuring news items such as the following (and there have been a great many similar news reports, especially from Pakistan but also from Egypt, of terrible Muslim violence against non-Muslims, this September so far):
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2009/09/5000-pakistani-hindus-flee-forced-conversions-kidnappings-rape.html
Funny, that.
Note also that in its obstinate blindness it deliberately refuses to understand my point about Christian imperialists disobeying and Muslim imperialists obeying.
When Muslims obey the Quran-Sira-Hadith and imitate Mohammed, they conduct jihad warfare and kill or subjugate or forcibly convert (and often enslave) non-Muslims. That is: a Muslim who does *not* do this kind of thing, is *disobeying* the teachings of their religion.
If a Christian does evil he or she does it *in despite of* Christianity. If a Christian is generous, just, life-saving, chaste and charitable, and refrains from murder, rape, theft and falsehood, well, that is *because* Christians are supposed to behave that way.
If a Muslim does what we Infidels experience as evil - mass murder, rape, robbery, enslavement - he or she does it *because* of the jihad doctrine of Islam; *because* of the instructions in sharia as per how non-Muslims should be treated; because of the entrenched principle of al-wala wa al-baraa, 'loyalty [toward all Muslims] and enmity/ hate [toward all non-Muslims]. (Conversely, of course, a Muslim who behaves toward us kafir in a way that we view as good and decent, is actually a rather bad, or kafirized, Muslim; he or she is going *against* their Islamic programming!).
Perhaps 'loveverybody' would like to explain this Hadith for us.
"When judgment day arrives, Allah will give every Muslim a Jew or Christian to kill so that the Muslim will not enter into hell fire." -- Mohammed (Mishkat Al-Messabih, vol. 2, no. 5552.)
So: each Muslim will get to human-sacrifice - ritually murder - a Jew or a Christian, and thus, will obtain his or her ticket to allah's Paradise? This hadith has 'Human Sacrifice Cult' written all over it.
There was a Muslim, not so long ago, who murdered a Jew who had been his friend. After committing the murder, he said, "I have killed my Jew, I shall go to Paradise". Maybe he was 'misunderstanding' that Mishkat Al-Messabih hadith; he didn't feel like waiting for the Day of Judgement.
I have posted, before, Serge Trifkovic's summary of the bitter Fruits of Sharia as they have been amply demonstrated and documented throughout the whole of the history of Islam. But I will post it again, for the benefit of any non-Muslim who has come across this thread, or may come across it in future.
“The fruits of attempted escape from the shackles of natural morality are as predictable as they are grim, for the Muslims no less than for their victims: both are enslaved, brutalized and dehumanized by Islam.
"The all-pervasive lack of freedom is the hallmark of the Muslim world.
"Discrimination against non-coreligionists
and [against] women of all creeds,
racism,
slavery,
virulent antisemitism,
and cultural imperialism
can be found – individually or in various combinations – in different cultures and eras.
*Islam alone has them all at once, all the time, and divinely sanctioned at that* {my emphasis added - dda}.”
"There is no presumed equality of different people’s claim to life, liberty or any pursuit at all in Islam.” - Sword of the Prophet, pp. 208-09.
Nonie Darwish, in her book on Sharia, 'Cruel and Usual Punishment', is completely in agreement with Mr Trifkovic. She is, by the way, a former Muslim; now a Christian.
And Ayaan Hirsi Ali, another who has left Islam because she found it to be soul-destroying, states:
“When people say that the values of Islam are compassion and tolerance and freedom, I look at reality, at real cultures and governments, and I see that it simply isn’t so” (Infidel, p. 349).
Nonie and Ayaan lived inside Islam. Ayaan lived in Saudi Arabia the heartland of Islam, and attended primary school there. They *know* what they are talking about. I believe them; I believe Nonie when she talks about the Coptic Christians of Egypt living in terror of the Muslims around them; I do NOT believe 'loveverybody'.
Memo to unknown future non-Muslim reading this comment: do not be surprised if this posting is followed by *another* one from 'loveverybody' throwing mud by the bucketful at Ms Darwish and Ms Hirsi Ali, and accusing them of ignorance, lying, etc. Also, do not be surprised if it throws the Hadith under the bus, pretending that the Hadith are not important to Muslims, or that the Hadith cited, is 'weak'.
I have discovered, in the course of many an encounter with defenders of Islam on this site, over the past two years (and from observing other posters' exchanges with Muslim dementors in the archives, from 2004 right on through), that the natural mode of Muslim 'argumentation' is denial and tu quoque.
Dumbledoresarmy stated :
there have been a great many similar news reports, especially from Pakistan but also from Egypt, of terrible Muslim violence against non-Muslims, this September so far)
Comment :
In a war zone, the most terrible things happen; so it is not surprising that the Taliban is engaged in activity that is brutal.
Can you point to a non-war zone environment like Malaysia or Turkey where non-muslims are forced to convert or there is mass violence against non-muslims ?
Dumbledoresarmy stated :
Note also that in its obstinate blindness it deliberately refuses to understand my point about Christian imperialists disobeying and Muslim imperialists obeying.
When Muslims obey the Quran-Sira-Hadith and imitate Mohammed, they conduct jihad warfare and kill or subjugate or forcibly convert (and often enslave) non-Muslims. That is: a Muslim who does *not* do this kind of thing, is *disobeying* the teachings of their religion.
If a Christian does evil he or she does it *in despite of* Christianity. If a Christian is generous, just, life-saving, chaste and charitable, and refrains from murder, rape, theft and falsehood, well, that is *because* Christians are supposed to behave that way.
Comment :
Judaism commands genocide ( Deut. 20:16 ) but that does not mean Jews obey the commandment in this present day; likewise, the command to kill a jew pertains to the treacherous Jews during the time of Muhammad but it does not mean killing Jews today and that is why Jews live in peace with muslims today.
Yes, Christianity preaches forgiveness and love and peace and turning the other cheek and loving the enemy but that is not the tradition of any "christian" or muslim or Jewish state .
I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT ISLAM IS MORE POWERFUL THAN CHRISTIANITY AND THAT MUSLIMS ARE ABLE TO OBEY ISLAM AND CHRISTIANS ARE NOT ABLE TO OBEY CHRISTIANITY.
I BELIEVE THAT BOTH MUSLIMS AND CHRISTIANS ARE NOT ABLE TO FOLLOW THE TEACHINGS IN THEIR OWN "RELIGION".
YOU ARE CORRECT IN SAYING THAT CHRIST "FOLLOWERS" ARE NOT OBEDIENT AND JUST AS "CHRISTIANS" ARE DISOBEDIENT, MUSLIMS ARE DISOBEDIENT TOO AND THAT IS WHY THE RECORD SHOWS HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF MURDERS OCCURRED MORE IN NON-MUSLIM LANDS THAN IN MUSLIM LANDS
REF:
http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/dictat.html
CAN YOU POINT TO ANY "CHRISTIAN" NATION FOLLOWING THE TEACHINGS OF CHRIST ?
So it really does not matter what a religion says; what is important is what the followers of those religions actually do and the fact of the matter is, hundreds of millions more have died in non-muslim lands than in muslim lands
ref : http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/dictat.html
Dumbledoresarmy stated :
If a Muslim does what we Infidels experience as evil - mass murder, rape, robbery, enslavement - he or she does it *because* of the jihad doctrine of Islam; *because* of the instructions in sharia as per how non-Muslims should be treated;
Comment :
Just as Christianity does not have power over Christ's "followers" to obey Christ, Islam does not have power over muslims to follow the Koran/Hadith
UNLESS YOU CAN YOU POINT TO ANY "CHRISTIAN" NATION FOLLOWING THE TEACHINGS OF CHRIST ?
BECAUSE BOTH MUSLIMS AND CHRISTIANS ARE NOT ABLE TO FOLLOW THEIR OWN "RELIGION"
ITS A FACT THAT HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS HAVE BEEN MURDERED IN NON-MUSLIM LANDS COMPARED TO THOSE MURDERED IN MUSLIM LANDS
ref : http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/dictat.html
Dumbledoresarmy stated :
Perhaps 'loveverybody' would like to explain this Hadith for us.
"When judgment day arrives, Allah will give every Muslim a Jew or Christian to kill so that the Muslim will not enter into hell fire." -- Mohammed (Mishkat Al-Messabih, vol. 2, no. 5552.)
This hadith has 'Human Sacrifice Cult' written all over it.
Comment :
Can you tell me how muslims apply that hadith in their every day lives ?
All monotheistic religions talk about what God would do to unbelievers.
Number of points to note regarding islam :
(1) I do not believe that Islam is more powerful than Christianity and just as you admit that "christians" do not obey Christ as evidenced by the dismal record of "christians" against non-christians, there is ample evidence that Islam is not more powerful than christianity and thus muslims, just like christians, do not follow their own religion.
(2) Because Islam has the same power as christianity does, muslims are not able to obey islam, just as christians are not able to follow christ
(3) The main reason why muslims are not able to follow the Koran/hadith regarding jews or christians is because muslims know those references to jews and christians refer to those jews and christians during the time of Muhammad and do not pertain to jews and christians living today
(4) A very small number of muslims (1% of 1%) apply those koranic/hadith references to jews and christians today but that is the exception to the rule.
(6) Osama Bin laden could only find 19 muslims who wanted to commit murder on 9/11 and could not get the millions of American muslims to attack America on 9/11 because almost all muslims do not take Koranic/Hadith references to treacherous non-muslims as applying to non-muslims today
Dumbledoresarmy stated :
There was a Muslim, not so long ago, who murdered a Jew who had been his friend. After committing the murder, he said, "I have killed my Jew, I shall go to Paradise". Maybe he was 'misunderstanding' that Mishkat Al-Messabih hadith; he didn't feel like waiting for the Day of Judgement.
Comment :
There are criminals in every religion that use religion as an excuse to commit their crimes
Dumbledoresarmy stated :
"The all-pervasive lack of freedom is the hallmark of the Muslim world.
"Discrimination against non-coreligionists
and [against] women of all creeds,
racism,
slavery,
virulent antisemitism,
and cultural imperialism
can be found – individually or in various combinations – in different cultures and eras.
*Islam alone has them all at once, all the time, and divinely sanctioned at that* {my emphasis added - dda}.”
Comment :
The fact still remains that there have been more murders by the hundreds of millions in non-muslim lands than in muslim lands
ref : http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/dictat.html
Divine sanction does not mean anything since muslims, just like "christians" , do not obey their own religion
Dumbledoresarmy stated :
And Ayaan Hirsi Ali, another who has left Islam because she found it to be soul-destroying, states:
“When people say that the values of Islam are compassion and tolerance and freedom, I look at reality, at real cultures and governments, and I see that it simply isn’t so” (Infidel, p. 349).
Comment :
How do you explain that this girl (see video below) who was attracted to islam :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uB_2GlzgpUM&NR=1
Dumbledoresarmy stated :
Nonie and Ayaan lived inside Islam. Ayaan lived in Saudi Arabia the heartland of Islam, and attended primary school there. They *know* what they are talking about. I believe them; I believe Nonie when she talks about the Coptic Christians of Egypt living in terror of the Muslims around them; I do NOT believe 'loveverybody'.
Comment :
These Saudi women seem pretty happy in Saudi Arabia :
(1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnWroPVmAQE&feature=related
(2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kbvvZs_0Zc
Dumbledoresarmy stated :
Memo to unknown future non-Muslim reading this comment: do not be surprised if this posting is followed by *another* one from 'loveverybody' throwing mud by the bucketful at Ms Darwish and Ms Hirsi Ali, and accusing them of ignorance, lying, etc. Also, do not be surprised if it throws the Hadith under the bus, pretending that the Hadith are not important to Muslims, or that the Hadith cited, is 'weak'.
I have discovered, in the course of many an encounter with defenders of Islam on this site, over the past two years (and from observing other posters' exchanges with Muslim dementors in the archives, from 2004 right on through), that the natural mode of Muslim 'argumentation' is denial and tu quoque.
Comment :
There are no denying the facts :
(1) The fact still remains that there have been more murders by the hundreds of millions in non-muslim lands than in muslim lands
ref : http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/dictat.html
(2) I do not believe that Islam is more powerful than Christianity and just as you admit that "christians" do not obey Christ as evidenced by the dismal record of "christians" against non-christians, there is ample evidence that Islam is not more powerful than christianity and thus muslims, just like christians, do not follow their own religion.
(3) Because Islam has the same power as christianity does, muslims are not able to obey islam, just as christians are not able to follow christ
(4) The main reason why muslims are not able to follow the Koran/hadith regarding jews or christians is because muslims know those references to jews and christians refer to those jews and christians during the time of Muhammad and do not pertain to jews and christians living today
(5) A very small number of muslims apply those koranic/hadith references to jews and christians today but that is the exception to the rule
(6) Osama Bin laden could only find 19 muslims who wanted to commit murder on 9/11 and could not get the millions of American muslims to attack America on 9/11 because almost all muslims do not take Koranic/Hadith references to treacherous non-muslims as applying to non-muslims today