Not that anyone is likely to draw any lessons from this -- not lessons about the NYPD cooperating with the FBI, which is what this article is about, but about making false and unwarranted assumptions about the loyalties of Muslims who appear to be "moderate." The fact that there is no moderate Koran, or moderate Islam, ought to give officials a certain sense of reserve when recruiting these "moderates" and asking for their help. It ought to make them at very least ask potential "helpers" some pointed questions, questions that are crafted to show what the aide really thinks about Infidels, Sharia, non-establishment of religion, American society, and related matters, all pertinent. But such questioning is not even on the radar screen. It would be "Islamophobic." It would not build bridges. So instead, we get this.
New York Jihad Plot Update: "How Using Imam in Terror Inquiry Backfired on Police," by William K. Rashbaum and Al Baker in the New York Times, September 22 (thanks to David):
A decision to enlist a Queens imam in an effort to develop information about the man at the center of a long-running cross-country terrorism investigation backfired earlier this month.Read it all.
In fact, federal prosecutors have now charged the imam, a onetime source of information for the New York Police Department, contending that he betrayed the police by warning the suspect and then lied about it, and maybe even coached him on what to say if he was questioned.
Several law enforcement officials have said the imam's disclosures went a long way toward forcing their hand in an extremely sensitive investigation of a possible Qaeda plot. The situation left them scrambling to conduct raids and arrest the suspect sooner than they might have otherwise, a development that they said could make it harder to identify others involved and develop evidence against them.
Several officials -- all of whom spoke on the condition of anonymity because much of the investigation is classified -- have said that the inquiry, which had been under way for months, could well have continued, tracking the communications, meetings, plans and associates of the suspect, Najibullah Zazi, 24....
Current and former police and federal officials said the approach to the imam, and the resulting disruption, added to a long history of tensions and rivalry between the New York New YorkPolice Department and the Federal Bureau of Investigation, which in recent years have developed a new dimension: a clash of sorts within the Police Department, between its two primary antiterrorism units....
Current and former police and federal officials said that the effort on Sept. 10 to enlist the imam, Ahmad Wais Afzali, was undertaken by detectives from the Intelligence Division. They showed him pictures of the central suspect and three other men, some of the officials said.
In the subsequent hours, Mr. Afzali spoke both with the suspect, Mr. Zazi, a Denver airport shuttle bus driver, and his father. Court papers say he told the younger Mr. Zazi, who had driven from Colorado to Queens on Sept. 9 and 10, that the authorities had been looking for him....
ALL Law Enforcement Training should include a few hours about Islam from Mr. Spencer.
Video tape training shouldn't be a problem, nor that expensive. He traveled to Florida on his own money in support of Rifqa. We'd probably be able to get a collection together for him to record an address to Law Enforcement Agencies.
I suspect most would be surprised to find that major felonies by Western standards are not only allowed, but condoned or required by Muslims.
There is no moderate Islam, just as there is no moderate Nazism.
G*d forbid if something should happen because of PC-mandated sensitivity training and outreach programs.
Jew_Lover - CrazyIslam.com
Trying to get help from an imam is just about as stupid as trying to get help from Goebbels in order to defeat the Nazis during World War II would have been.
The first story on this was that the police had flashed the guys pic around and asked questions. The imam got wind of it an warned him.
What they really did...sigh... Like asking the head of the local gang for help breaking up his gang. "Yeah...I'll get right on it."
There's moderate islam all right. Unfortunately it requires a simple catalyst available at any local mosque to turn it radical. One little push is all it takes. As has been pointed out here many times, the ratio of muslim to infidel is the determining factor in how radical islam, in any country, grows and inflicts itself upon others. The more the merrier one might say.
islam is a lie and
Truth is killing it.
Ignorance of islam at an agency that seeks to protect us is astounding and unforgiveable.
Added irony that this ignorance is in the city that suffered most 9/11.
The Lord does not afford the stupid that many chances.
Added irony that this ignorance is in the city that suffered most 9/11.
..... from the post above.
Giving officials the benefit of 'ignorance' cost 3000 Americans their lives on 9/11:
http://www.nationalreview.com/mowbray/mowbray100902.asp
Simply put, INS gives visas not on merit but on political agendas. Saudi Arabia, 9/11 POTUS's friends, are given visa with little scrutiny, as the findings reveal. Clinton gave direct orders to James Zigler http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/693701/posts
........to turn a blind eye to illegal immigrants.
This from POTUS/commander-in-chief to the protector of American broders.
Think twice before giving the benefit of 'ignorance'.
You are all terrorists!
I have it in writing, here:
Solkhar
solkhar.blogspot.com
solkharsworld@yahoo.com
196.12.245.189
Submitted on 2009/09/23 at 11:30am
“CAIR is a terrorist organization, this is just another form of terrorism.
Catchwords like “Racism, bigotry, Muslim-bashers, Islamophobes” scare the hell out of ordinary people who have been through decades of politically correct kumbaya indoctrination.”
I completely agree!
That is also why many in the far-right are also terrorists. Spencer, Fitzgerald, Gellar and even WoJ are doing the same.
Catch phrases like “taqiyya, jihadist, appeasists, apologists” are attempting to incite hatred in ordinary people who have for decades understood moral values, education, supporting academia and are being fed instead imoral hate, ignore learning things and that educative instutitions are of no value.
From this thread here:
http://sheikyermami.com/2009/09/23/cair-jihad-vs-pennsylvania-school-district/
As long as Islam sanctions "taquiyya" and "kittman", it is entirely reasonable to suspect any Muslim. Sorry, but the truth hurts.
Trust no imam or other muslim as to what islam is, no-one but mo or his alter ego allah.
Every law enforcement entity should designate at least one member to read the koran, and summary of the sira and hadith. This should go for every elected rep as well. There is no excuse for such utter ignorance, that now 8 years after 9-11 I will call STOOPIDITY.
I would have known not to do this. You, Jihadwatch buddies, would know not to do this. THEY DON'T KNOW that an imam is not the Muslim equivalent of Father Bing Crosby in 'Going My Way'. Be afraid. Be really afraid.
Spencer writes:
"The fact that there is no moderate Koran, or moderate Islam, ought to give officials a certain sense of reserve when recruiting these "moderates" and asking for their help. It ought to make them at very least ask potential "helpers" some pointed questions, questions that are crafted to show what the aide really thinks about Infidels, Sharia, non-establishment of religion, American society, and related matters, all pertinent. But such questioning is not even on the radar screen."
What good would further questioning of apparent moderates do? The Muslims would just learn to lie more cleverly. At that point, it would be as bad a situation as we have now, if not worse -- because we would be under the deluded impression that the Muslim in question, having been able to get through our new and improved Spencerian battery of questions, is really a moderate.
And examining more closely another directly related implication in Spencer's advice -- that our agents should cultivate "...a certain sense of reserve when recruiting these "moderates" and asking for their help...", which then Spencer even more vaguely implies could involve more than the special battery of vetting questions ("...It ought to make them at very least...") -- how would this be concretely realized?
If (as is likely unless we have a sociopolitical climate change) the agents treat the Muslim they are recruiting nicely, without any verbal or physical intimidation, how would a "certain sense of reserve" manifest itself? If the agents know, like us (at least most of us), that they cannot trust any given Muslim, that means they have at their disposal a Muslim recruit who could be lying at any given moment about any given detail. That means, in turn, that any given information their Muslim recruit gives them has to be double-checked, perhaps triple-checked for independent verification. Of course, the agents may have the experience now and again of the Muslim recruit's information proving to be good intel. But this too could be a deception, a more elaborate deception, calculated to make the agents let down their guard and trust him more, so that later down the line, he can deliver the bad intel they will swallow, costing untold lives.
I.e., an elementary examination of the concrete implications of any degree of trust for any given Muslim reveals it is pragmatically worthless -- with one exception: the intel derived from that technique known by the T word. Critics of T proffer the counter-argument that intel derived from T is worthless because a person under T will say anything just to stop the T. What that simplistic logic fails to account for (or perhaps implicitly accounts for but recoils from in ethical horror) is that such worthless intel only pertains, mostly, to innocent subjects who really don't know the information being extracted from them. A guilty subject who knows the date, time and place of a WMD attack in the near future will most likely divulge the information, given effective (and creative) T. What the counter-argument objects to, then, is not the pragmatic worthlessness of T -- that is just a superficial obfuscation intended to appear "practical" -- but rather the grim fact that innocents will likely suffer as collateral damage. But if anyone balks at such collateral damage, they may as well pack up their bags and give up the War. The idea that one can wage a war without collateral damage of innocents is like imagining you can have Capitalism without a certain number of people suffering from various degrees of money problems, ranging from poverty on up. The grim reality of war in general with its tragically necessary exigencies becomes further ratcheted up when one faces a foe as psychotically fanatical as we face with a global revival of Islam.
And who is behind this imam-enlisting fiasco? A CIA criminal, dastardly neoliberal-neocon David Cohen heading the so-called "Intelligence Division" of the NYPD. Before the CIA degenerate got involved, there was the right chemistry between the NYPD cops and the FBI working as a team in the Joint Terrorism Task Force, for, despite the frustrating dhimmification of the FBI over the last decade, there's still some of the gumshue integrity left in it. But the invasion of the CIA sociopath was adding a spoon of sh*t to a bucket of honey. Immediatelly, Cohen began pushing the FBI aside and pushing "the CIA ways" in, causing division and discord. And the CIA approach to the jihadists can be summed-up in a line: "We Cannot Fight Them, So Let's Embrace Them". The only thing the CIA know to do about terrorists is aiding them. It were the CIA who created Bin Laden and al-Qaida in the first place. But they did not stop there, going Satanic to aid the attack on this country every step of the way.
Police Commissioner Kelly: It was the right idea of yours to create NYPD's own intelligence independent of the Federal US intelligence that let the people of New York City down so horribly. So why in the world did you put someone from that same no-good US intelligence in charge of your NYPD intelligence? Knowing what you and everybody else know about the CIA sabotaging every effort by the hero John O'Neal and his FBI to prevent the 9/11 attacks, what possessed you to put one of those CIA sleazebags into the NYPD? You want intelligence? Turn to the Israelis. No one else in the world even comes close to them in ability to deal with the jihadists. There are six major private security agencies in Israel staffed with awesome veterans of Mossad, Shin Bet, Aman and Sayeret Matkal. Those folks are in the league of their own. They are the best of the best of the best. There are the personnel sources for you!
The CIA are the worst of the worst of the worst. They should not be allowed anywhere near the NYPD or the JTTF. It is crucial to learn the difference between Israel's Zionists and the domestic neoliberal-neocons closely associated with the CIA and the US State Dept. sociopaths. Embrace the Zionists and Israel. Keep the NNs, the CIA and the State Dept. away.
Ruslan Tokhchukov, EnragedSince1999.
And who is behind this imam-enlisting fiasco? A CIA criminal, dastardly neoliberal-neocon David Cohen heading the so-called "Intelligence Division" of the NYPD. Before the CIA degenerate got involved, there was the right chemistry between the NYPD cops and the FBI working as a team in the Joint Terrorism Task Force, for, despite the frustrating dhimmification of the FBI over the last decade, there's still some of the gumshue integrity left in it. But the invasion of the CIA sociopath was adding a spoon of sh*t to a bucket of honey. Immediatelly, Cohen began pushing the FBI aside and pushing "the CIA ways" in, causing division and discord. And the CIA approach to the jihadists can be summed-up in a line: "We Cannot Fight Them, So Let's Embrace Them". The only thing the CIA know to do about terrorists is aiding them. It were the CIA who created Bin Laden and al-Qaida in the first place. But they did not stop there, going Satanic to aid the attack on this country every step of the way.
Police Commissioner Kelly: It was the right idea of yours to create NYPD's own intelligence independent of the Federal US intelligence that let the people of New York City down so horribly. So why in the world did you put someone from that same no-good US intelligence in charge of your NYPD intelligence? Knowing what you and everybody else know about the CIA sabotaging every effort by the hero John O'Neal and his FBI to prevent the 9/11 attacks, what possessed you to put one of those CIA sleazebags into the NYPD? You want intelligence? Turn to the Israelis. No one else in the world even comes close to them in ability to deal with the jihadists. There are six major private security agencies in Israel staffed with awesome veterans of Mossad, Shin Bet, Aman and Sayeret Matkal. Those folks are in the league of their own. They are the best of the best of the best. There are the personnel sources for you!
The CIA are the worst of the worst of the worst. They should not be allowed anywhere near the NYPD or the JTTF. It is crucial to learn the difference between Israel's Zionists and the domestic neoliberal-neocons closely associated with the CIA and the US State Dept. sociopaths. Embrace the Zionists and Israel. Keep the NNs, the CIA and the State Dept. away.
Ruslan Tokhchukov, EnragedSince1999.
And who is behind this imam-enlisting fiasco? A CIA criminal, dastardly neoliberal-neocon David Cohen heading the so-called "Intelligence Division" of the NYPD. Before the CIA degenerate got involved, there was the right chemistry between the NYPD cops and the FBI working as a team in the Joint Terrorism Task Force, for, despite the frustrating dhimmification of the FBI over the last decade, there's still some of the gumshue integrity left in it. But the invasion of the CIA sociopath was adding a spoon of sh*t to a bucket of honey. Immediatelly, Cohen began pushing the FBI aside and pushing "the CIA ways" in, causing division and discord. And the CIA approach to the jihadists can be summed-up in a line: "We Cannot Fight Them, So Let's Embrace Them". The only thing the CIA know to do about terrorists is aiding them. It were the CIA who created Bin Laden and al-Qaida in the first place. But they did not stop there, going Satanic to aid the attack on this country every step of the way.
Police Commissioner Kelly: It was the right idea of yours to create NYPD's own intelligence independent of the Federal US intelligence that let the people of New York City down so horribly. So why in the world did you put someone from that same no-good US intelligence in charge of your NYPD intelligence? Knowing what you and everybody else know about the CIA sabotaging every effort by the hero John O'Neal and his FBI to prevent the 9/11 attacks, what possessed you to put one of those CIA sleazebags into the NYPD? You want intelligence? Turn to the Israelis. No one else in the world even comes close to them in ability to deal with the jihadists. There are six major private security agencies in Israel staffed with awesome veterans of Mossad, Shin Bet, Aman and Sayeret Matkal. Those folks are in the league of their own. They are the best of the best of the best. There are the personnel sources for you!
The CIA are the worst of the worst of the worst. They should not be allowed anywhere near the NYPD or the JTTF. It is crucial to learn the difference between Israel's Zionists and the domestic neoliberal-neocons closely associated with the CIA and the US State Dept. sociopaths. Embrace the Zionists and Israel. Keep the NNs, the CIA and the State Dept. away.
Ruslan Tokhchukov, EnragedSince1999.
And who is behind this Imam-enlisting fiasco? A CIA criminal, dastardly neoliberal-neocon David Cohen heading the so-called "Intelligence Division" of the NYPD. Before the CIA degenerate got involved, there was the right chemistry between the NYPD cops and the FBI working as a team in the Joint Terrorism Task Force, for, despite the frustrating dhimmification of the FBI over the last decade, there's still some of the gumshue integrity left in it. But the arrival of the CIA sociopath was adding a spoon of sh*t to a bucket of honey. Immediatelly, Cohen began pushing the FBI aside and pushing "the CIA ways" in, causing division and discord. And the CIA approach to the jihadists can be summed-up in a line: "We Cannot Fight Them, So Let's Embrace Them". The only thing the CIA know to do about terrorists is aiding them. It were the CIA who created Bin Laden and al-Qaida in the first place. But they did not stop there, going Satanic to aid the attack on this country every step of the way.
Police Commissioner Kelly: It was the right idea of yours to create NYPD's own intelligence independent of the Federal US intelligence that let the people of New York City down so horribly. So why in the world did you put someone from that same no-good US intelligence in charge of your NYPD intelligence? Knowing what you and everybody else know about the CIA sabotaging every effort by the hero John O'Neal and his FBI to prevent the 9/11 attacks, what possessed you to put one of those CIA sleazebags into the NYPD? You want intelligence? Turn to the Israelis. No one else in the world even comes close to them in ability to deal with the jihadists. There are six major private security agencies in Israel staffed with awesome veterans of Mossad, Shin Bet, Aman and Sayeret Matkal. Those folks are in the league of their own. They are the best of the best of the best. There are the personnel sources for you!
The CIA are the worst of the worst of the worst. They should not be allowed anywhere near the NYPD or the JTTF. It is crucial to learn the difference between Israel's Zionists and the domestic neoliberal-neocons closely associated with the CIA and the US State Dept. sociopaths. Embrace the Zionists and Israel. Keep the NNs, the CIA and the State Dept. away.
Ruslan Tokhchukov, EnragedSince1999.
Using an imam as an informant is like bringing a wolf among sheep and chickens .