Journalist/propagandist Michael Kruse explains Islamic apostasy law for us

Michael Kruse is yet another mainstream media pseudo-journalist who relentlessly pursues a politically correct multiculturalist agenda, and the facts be damned. You can see previous discussion of this “reporter’s” casual acquaintance with the truth here.

Yesterday in the St. Petersburg Times he continued his campaign to discredit Rifqa Bary, the girl who says her father threatened to kill her for converting from Islam to Christianity, and her defenders. A girl’s life is a stake, but who cares? The gods of political correctness must be appeased.

“How real are runaway’s fears?,” by Michael Kruse for the St. Petersburg Times, September 19 (thanks to Kinana):

Will religious runaway Rifqa Bary be killed if she’s sent home to Ohio?

Bary is the 17-year-old girl who fled to Florida in July because she’s terrified that her Muslim family has to murder her due to her conversion to Christianity.

Authorities in both states say there’s no “credible” threat against her. Investigators from the Florida Department of Law Enforcement say her fear is “subjective and speculative.” Her parents say they don’t want to hurt her and just want her back.

On the FDLE report, see this analysis of its many flaws by a veteran FBI agent. As for what her parents say, what does anyone realistically expect them to say? Even if everything Rifqa Bary has said that they said to her is true, does Michael Kruse, or the FDLE, or the Governor of Ohio, or anyone else actually think that they’re going to say, “Yes, of course we want to kill her, now send her back to us so that we can slit her throat!”? Also, other fathers who have threatened to kill their daughters have lured them back home with assurances that all is forgiven — only to murder them when they return. These include Yaser Said, the father of Amina and Sarah Said, who were murdered in Texas on New Year’s Day 2008, and Mohammed Parvez, father of Aqsa Parvez, who was murdered in Canada in 2007. Do we really want to take that kind of a chance with Rifqa Bary’s life?

She’s living with a foster family as a court in Orlando tries to decide what to do with her. The next hearing is Monday afternoon. Attorneys for her parents are expected to argue that the case should be shifted to Ohio.

This is a good time to pause for a bit and take another look at her Aug. 10 interview with local TV. It remains this ongoing story’s primary source.

“I’m fighting for my life!” she said in her nearly seven-minute interview with Orlando’s WFTV. “You guys don’t understand!”

Let’s understand then.

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“Imagine the honor in killing me,” she said. “It’s in the Koran.”

It’s not. Here’s what is.

Note that this supposedly “objective” journalist does not simply report — as would a genuinely objective journalist — that some people say that the Koran mandates the killing of apostates and that some people say it doesn’t. Instead, he sets himself up as judge in the case and decides it all for you. To be sure, he trots out witnesses in his show trial, including me, but he has already delivered his verdict: Is the death penalty for apostates in the Koran? “It’s not.”

One verse: “If any of you turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be companions of the Fire and will abide therein.”

Another verse: “If they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them.”

Those are parts of the two verses Robert Spencer cites to support his belief that Bary will be killed because Islam says she must be killed.

I don’t think Rifqa Bary “will be killed because Islam says she must be killed.” That would be asinine, and I expect Kruse knows that. I think Rifqa Bary might be killed because she says that her father said he would kill her, and because there is abundant support in Islam for the idea that apostates should be killed. Michael Kruse wants to gamble with her life. I don’t.

Spencer blogs at JihadWatch.org. He’s written nine books, with titles like Stealth Jihad, The Truth About Muhammad and The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades). Two of them have been New York Times bestsellers. In Stealth Jihad, published last year, he writes of the coming “Islamic conquest of North America” and urges this country’s schools to stop “the empty rhetoric of inclusion and multiculturalism.”

Note that Kruse once again attributes to me the idea of an “Islamic conquest of North America,” as if it were a crazy idea I originated out of paranoia and bigotry. He did this before, when he reported my quoting of CAIR’s Omar Ahmad’s statement about the Koran being the only law in America as if it were solely my assertion — see here, here, and here. And now he ignores the centerpiece of the book Stealth Jihad: the “Explanatory Memorandum on the General Strategic Goal for the Brotherhood in North America,” by Mohamed Akram, May 19, 1991, which detailed the Muslim Brotherhood’s goal in the U.S. It said that the Muslim Brothers “must understand that their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and ‘sabotaging’ its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God’s religion is made victorious over all other religions.” Also in the book I gave abundant evidence that the Brotherhood is acting upon this directive. But Kruse, of course, mentions none of this.

In the same vein, Kruse gives his readers the impression that it is only I, in my incorrigible bigotry, who interpret Koran 2:217 and 4:89, the two verses he quotes above, as having anything to do with apostasy. In reality, I didn’t originate this interpretation; it comes from mainstream and authoritative Islamic sources.

What does it mean that the works of those who “turn back from their faith and die in unbelief” will “bear no fruit in this life” as well as in the next, as 2:217 says? Let’s go for an answer to the Tafsir al-Qurtubi, a classic and thoroughly mainstream exegesis of the Qur’an. About 2:217, Qurtubi says this:

Scholars disagree about whether or not apostates are asked to repent. One group say that they are asked to repent and, if they do not, they are killed. Some say they are given an hour and others a month. Others say that they are asked to repent three times, and that is the view of Malik. Al-Hasan said they are asked a hundred times. It is also said that they are killed without being asked to repent.

Did you notice one option that Qurtubi never mentions? That’s right: he never says anything like “some say the apostate should not be killed.” The only point of contention seems to be how long the Muslim must wait before he kills the apostate.

Meanwhile, 4:89 says that “if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them.” The Tafsir al-Jalalayn, another venerable and respected commentary on the Qur’an, explains that a Muslim should not trust these people “until they emigrate in the way of God, a proper emigration that would confirm their belief” — that is, if they leave their homes to join up with the Muslims. “Then, if they turn away, and remain upon their ways, take them, as captives, and slay them wherever you find them.” Here again, no attempt is made, in this Qur’an commentary or any of those that Muslims revere as trustworthy, to explain that this does not actually mean that one should kill the “renegade.”

Back to Kruse:

Here are some other things the Koran says.

One verse: “Let there be no compulsion in religion.”

Another verse: “Show kindness to parents, and to family.”

The Koran, like many other holy texts, is long, complicated and at times contradictory, and over centuries different people have had and continue to have different interpretations.

Kruse does not mention, of course, that Islamic authorities are unanimous about the death penalty for apostasy. Don’t take my word for it. Take it from Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi (look him up, Michael, he is an internationally renowned and influential Islamic scholar, and even John Esposito likes him, so he must be good, right?). Qaradawi says: “That is why the Muslim jurists are unanimous that apostates must be punished, yet they differ as to determining the kind of punishment to be inflicted upon them. The majority of them, including the four main schools of jurisprudence (Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi`i, and Hanbali) as well as the other four schools of jurisprudence (the four Shiite schools of Az-Zaidiyyah, Al-Ithna-`ashriyyah, Al-Ja`fariyyah, and Az-Zaheriyyah) agree that apostates must be executed.”

Bary has committed apostasy. That means she was a Muslim and now she’s not.

“The Koran condemns apostasy,” said Jonathan Berkey, a professor of Islamic studies at Davidson College in North Carolina, “but the verses about seizing and slaying ‘renegades’ concerned enemies of the prophet Muhammad’s state, people who posed a political or even military threat.

“For others,” he said, “the Koran implies that apostasy is something that God will punish.”

Not people. Not in this life.

Note that Berkey cites no authorities for his view. I did for mine. In reality, some hold to his opinion that the Koran says nothing about apostasy. But then there is the Hadith, in which Muhammad says, “Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.” Is that statement (and others like it in the Hadith) authoritative for Muslims? Kruse should ask Berkey. I’d like to see what he says.

Kruse doesn’t mention this statement or discuss its authority, but he does go on to assert erroneously that there is no consensus (ijma) about the death penalty for apostates:

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“They have to kill me,” she said.

Let’s acknowledge this right here: There’s no way to know for sure if her parents, or anyone else for that matter, will kill her.

But this can be said with certainty: They don’t have to.

This idea, though, comes from sharia, or Islamic law. There is one Koran but there is no single sharia. It comes from many sources, including the Koran, and is “more like a discussion by Muslim scholars concerning the duties a Muslim should perform,” said Valerie Hoffman, a professor of Islamic studies at the University of Illinois.

Highly misleading. Kruse should ask Hoffman: is Sharia really just some kind of discussion group, or are rulings on which there is a consensus (ijma) considered authoritative for Muslims by almost all recognized Islamic authorities?

Most Muslim jurists say apostasy is punishable by death — but not all of them. It is “the heart of a burning debate among modern Muslims,” said Sherman Jackson, a professor of Islamic studies at the University of Michigan.

“There are lots of liberal Muslims today who feel that there should never be any execution of people who convert from Islam to another religion,” Hoffman said. “You can’t say Islam says this or Islam says that.”

Note that Jackson refers to “modern Muslims” and Hoffman to “liberal Muslims.” Rifqa Bary referred to her parents as “radical, radical Muslims.” As Kruse might have known if he had done any genuine research instead of simply looking for support for his propaganda points, “radical Muslims” are radical traditionalists, who advocate for traditional Islamic rulings and ascribe all of society’s ills to the straying from those traditional norms. Even if Rifqa Bary is lying and her parents are actually as liberal and modern as the day is long, this point might have borne some investigation, no?

Also important is the fact that sharia is law only to the extent that specific governments choose to enforce it as such. Some governments in the Muslim world do. Most don’t. Indonesia is the largest Muslim-majority country in the world. Its government does not.

“Sharia is just not applied very often, particularly in the modern world,” Berkey said. “There are few places in the Muslim world where much at all of sharia is applied with the force of law.”

This is completely irrelevant. Sharia adherents are found in all Muslim countries. The fact that most majority-Muslim countries don’t enforce Sharia today doesn’t mean that there aren’t people in each of them who believe that Sharia should be enforced. Did the Jamaat al-Fuqra group refrain from killing Rashad Khalifa, whom they considered to be an apostate, in Arizona because the U.S. is not a Sharia state?

Kruse:

Apostasy executions are rare.

An official at the United States Commission on International Religious Freedom told the New York Times in 2006 that he knew of four: one in Sudan, in 1985; two in Iran, in 1989 and 1998; and one in Saudi Arabia, in 1992.

In the case of Bary, which government would order her execution for apostasy — Ohio, Florida, the United States?

Kruse’s inept attempt at a reductio ad absurdum is obscene. He ignores, of course, the many Sharia freelancers who have not hesitated to take the death penalty for apostasy into their own hands, and to murder or threaten to murder apostates. He says nothing whatsoever about the many killings of apostates and threats to their lives that take place frequently in the Islamic world. Click on every word, Michael — each one is a story about an apostate being murdered or threatened with death. Now, isn’t that odd? Why didn’t any of these murderers and threateners wait for their respective governments to take action? Didn’t any of them realize that the Koran says nothing about the death penalty for apostasy, and that Sharia is just a “discussion” in which liberal Muslims say the apostates should not be killed? Why, Michael, are so many Muslims misunderstanding Islam in just the same way, and how can you be sure that Mohamed Bary is not yet another Misunderstander of Islam regarding apostasy?

Then Kruse trots out my old buddy, academic propagandist Carl Ernst, who was last seen picking up an award from Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:

“The allegation that Muslim parents would be required to kill an apostate daughter is absurd,” said Carl Ernst, a professor of Islamic studies at the University of North Carolina, “particularly if there is no evidence to back this up besides the daughter’s statement.”

The key word here is “required.” Even if one grants that they are not “required” to do so, that the death penalty for apostates is a general obligation on the community and not a specific obligation on the parents, does that establish that Rifqa Bary is out of danger? Unfortunately, it does not. But Ernst seems as willing to gamble with her life as is his fellow propagandist Kruse. Ernst’s Iranian masters will be pleased.

“¢ “¢ “¢

“I don’t know if you know about honor killings,” she said.

Honor killings are real. The United Nations Population Fund says there could be as many as 5,000 a year worldwide.

Honor killings are usually when a man in a family kills a woman in that family because of some shame the man believes she brought on the family. It typically involves some sort of perceived sexual impropriety, anything from promiscuity to adultery to dating the wrong guy or dressing too “Western.” Sometimes, women are killed after they’re raped.

Honor killings happen mostly in the Muslim world. In the last couple of years, though, there was a double murder some called an honor killing in Texas, there was one in Georgia, there was another in upstate New York.

And all were perpetrated by Muslims, although Kruse doesn’t tell you that — it wouldn’t fit his paradigm. He just led his readers to believe that Muslims follow Sharia only in Sharia states, and is not willing to contradict himself so openly. But the contradiction is there nevertheless.

But honor killings and apostasy executions are not the same thing.

“This is a basic mistake of conflating two things,” said Brett Wilson, a professor of Islamic studies at Macalester College in Minnesota.

Ernst, the professor from UNC, called honor killings “a local or tribal custom,” having far more to do with culture than religion — “more or less equivalent,” he wrote in an e-mail, “to the so-called ‘unwritten law,’ honored by judges in Texas at least through the 1950s, which considered it legitimate for a husband to kill his wife and her lover if he discovered them in a compromising situation.”

See, we’re all the same here. Yaser Said, murdering his daughters for having non-Muslim boyfriends, he’s just like those good old boys in Texas who murdered their adulterous wives, you hear? But here again, one wonders at the point of Ernst’s tu quoque here. Even if Islamic honor killing were equivalent to men in Texas allegedly honoring some “unwritten law,” how does that establish that Rifqa Bary is safe in her parents’ home? Honor killing is real, and the death penalty for apostasy is real, and they are not the same thing, but the fact that they are not the same thing doesn’t do a single thing to establish that Rifqa Bary is not threatened by both.

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To believe absolutely that the girl from Ohio will be killed if she’s sent home, you have to believe that there’s no variation in the interpretation of Islam — no Sunni, no Shia, no Sufism — among the approximately billion and a half Muslims worldwide, stretching from Southeast Asia to Africa to the Middle East to Europe to Florida and Ohio. Saying all Muslims have exactly the same rigid and literal beliefs and act on those beliefs in exactly the same ways is like saying the same thing about Christians.

Note the sleight of hand here. “To believe absolutely.” Kruse wants you to believe that Rifqa’s defenders are saying that she will be killed if she is sent back to her parents. No one has actually said that. Might she be killed, or sent out of the country and institutionalized, if she is sent back? Certainly — and that fact has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that there is “variation in the interpretation of Islam.” Even if just one tiny group of Muslims believed that apostates should be killed, if Rifqa’s parents were among that group, and threatened her, there would be reason to believe she was in danger. And in fact, she says her father threatened her. Her father is from Sri Lanka, where the Shafi’i school of Islamic jurisprudence prevails, and the Shafi’i school teaches that apostates should be killed.

But Michael Kruse would have you ignore all that. His pitiless politically correct multiculturalism makes it a cardinal sin of bigotry to believe that Muslims actually act upon Islamic teachings, or even that Islamic teachings involve a death penalty for apostates. And Michael Kruse is willing to bet a girl’s life on that.

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Comments

  1. says

    Often when I go to the St. Pete Times site (see link above), a notice comes on saying my computer is infected with viruses (spam) and I have to go through all of this stuff to get the notices off my screen. A real drag and makes me not want to go back there.

    Anyone else have this problem with “tampabay.com?”

  2. says

    l would suggest not going to that site. islamists probably have it infected for going there. one way to get back at the infidels.
    The courts in Florida and Ohio should realize that a girl at 17 knows where she wants to live and should respect her choice. many judges allow children at that age to make their own choices.

  3. says

    What a bizarre world we live in. In a more normal world the parents of Rifqa Bary would have already been arrested for conspiracy to commit her murder. In contrast, Rifqa is fighting to stop the state from returning her to her parents so she can surely be killed. Stop this world, I want to get off!

  4. says

    Kruse is contemptible.

    Right now – right now – an apostate from Islam, Canon Dr Patrick Sookhdeo, is putting the finishing touches to a book about what Islam does to apostates. A book that – like Samuel Zwemer’s classic “The Law of Apostasy in Islam” before it – pulls together the Islamic canonical texts and their standard interpretations ancient and modern, in which there is massive agreement that the apostate from Islam must be killed; and a mountain of historic evidence that apostates from Islam have been, and are, killed, in accord with that sharia rule.

    Right now, the Barnabas Fund, an Anglican charity founded by Dr Sookhdeo for the support of persecuted Christians (mostly in the Islamic world, though also in non-Islamic dictatorships such as Myanmar and Zimbabwe), is circulating a petition calling for the abolition of the Islamic apostasy law. This petition will be presented to many western parliaments early next year – begging them to act to protect the freedom of conscience of those who apostasise from Islam *within* our borders (such as Rifqa Bary!), and to put real pressure on Islamic countries to stop killing apostates.

    Perhaps a copy of that petition should be sent to Mr Kruse along with a covering letter inviting him to consider why the Barnabas Fund people – with limited resources – are putting so much time and energy into this particular campaign. *They* don’t seem to think that the Islamic law about killing apostates is a dead letter and something we really shouldn’t bother our heads about.

  5. says

    Finally, I can post again…. I sent a email to the Gov.of Fla. Trying to let them know that she is in real danger. I hope they got many more.She needs to stay in hiding until she’s 18, then she will have to hide from these monsters, still I would imagine

  6. says

    Gambling with Rifqa’s life is evil…Hear that Michael…evil…in reality this case is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS…Quasi educated Kruse is just another screwed up Islamic apologist and PC freak…Most likely a (shudder) liberal…

  7. says

    If she is sent back. If she was then harmed in anyway … could the officials and all the freaks like Michael Kruse, CAIR etc be held legally responsible in anyway?

  8. says

    Since I’m hesitant to re-visit “tampabay.com” due to the “bugs” I get, I sent this e-mail to Michael Kruse at his sptimes addy:

    “Michael, Michael, Michael – Good Grief.

    Don’t you know that “Let there be no compulsion in religion” is an Abrogated verse?

    Abrogated, Michael, which the Muslim who informed you of that verse somehow neglected to tell you. The Islamic Doctrine of Abrogation says that “allah” (i.e. Mohamet), is allowed to “change his mind.” Ergo, many of the early peaceful Meccan verses were repealed, abolished, superseded, by the later Medinan violent, intolerant, Verses of the Sword.

    Michael, Michael, Michael – this is so basic, so Islam 101. The above verse, though still included in the Q, has no authority – it’s been abrogated by “allah” (Mohamet). You are being played as such a fool by your Mohammedan pals! They know you’re 100% ignorant about Islam, and are using that to full advantage. They’re laughing behind your back, Michael. Here’s a link for you with a simple explanation of Abrogation:

    http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Glossary_of_Islamic_Terms

    In your next article, I expect to see you say that you’ve since learned that “Let there be no compulsion in religion” is an Abrogated verse, and as such, carries no weight of authority whatsoever. I expect to see you say that yes, you were taken to the cleaners by your Mohammedan “sources.” A true journalist would do this.

    Best Wishes, have a great day.”

    Well, think Michael Kruse will learn anything???!

  9. says

    Again, if Rifqa Bary is returned to her parents and murdered, I hope that Michael Kruse and the papers that hire him face charges of being accessories to first degree murder.

    It could be that the Bary family’s mosque (I understand it is the same one that lost the Caner brothers–those Turkish-American boys who grew up to become Baptist theologians). Perhaps it is more Americanized and prudent than others. Now that there’s been a media spotlight on Rifqa’s probably plight, he family will back off from the threats. Still, this is gambling with a teenaged girl’s LIFE!

  10. says

    She’s a Christian. With the absolute hatred we see in our current culture toward Christianity, I’m sure many people wouldn’t be too upset if she was killed.

  11. says

    darcy – LOL!! Abrogated quran verse in Islam? No way! According to muslims I have spoken with allah sends a better verse but in no way is one abrogated!! LOL!!

  12. says

    A lot of these Islamo-apologists seem to use the following logic:

    A. Islam is diverse, and it’s not up to a Westerner to define Islam..

    to

    B. ..thus we shouldn’t really point out any negatives in Islam since there are followers who don’t subscribe to those bits.

    Now I, and I think Robert, would agree with point A. Indeed, in ANY large religious or political movement, one can find adherents that dispute some of the central, mainstream tenets of that belief system. However, that certainly doesn’t mean that there AREN’T ANY dominant, mainstream positions that can fairly be attributed to that movement. I don’t think anyone is saying that every Muslim actively supports death for apostasy. However, it’s very accurate to say that death for apostasy is an accepted, mainstream position within Islam, and it certainly follows that if you have a large Muslim population, that belief is going to be more widespread than in a non-Muslim population which doesn’t assert that at all.

    And as has been pointed out here numerous times, I wonder if those Islamo-apoligists have considered the impact of their positions on Muslim reformists. Now, given the central texts of Islam, I’m dubious that Islam CAN be reformed into something more liberal. But let’s say that it can. Those Islamo-apoligists are pretty much cutting the legs right out from underneath any sincere Muslim reformers. If Islam is no more extreme than any other religion, then it certainly follows that it is in no more need of reform than any other religion, and hey, no one is calling for more new interpretations of Christianity or Judaism, so why should we call for that in Islam? These left-leaning scholars are basically parroting the lines of the conservative Muslims who want to prevent all reform and liberalization of the religion.

    It’s really quite disturbing to see the vast number of ways the modern left allies itself with the Islamists.

  13. says

    This bloke Kruse is nauseating and irresponsible. He doesn’t care, whether Rifqa is killed or not, he only wants to make a point. Islam is a tolerant religion, apostates are not killed, bla, bla, bla. I wonder whose paylist he’s on. CAIR’s, the Saudis’…

    I remember a couple of years ago there was this Afghan guy who had been working for different aid organisations and converted to Christianity. When he returned to Afghanistan he was accused of apostasy and condemned to death. It was only because of international protests that he was released and he went to Italy. I always wondered how the Afghan authorities had found out about his conversion, nobody in his right mind would admit having left Islam in a country like Afghanistan. Then I heard his own parents had sold him out. So much for Rifqa’s safety from her parents who are traditional Mohammedans. Thank G*d, Rifqa has got Robert and Pamela.

  14. says

    And yet this young girl is but only a little over 10 months away from being allowed to make her own choices in life.

    Rifqa Bary has said she loves her parents but fears she will be killed by her father or a Muslim in the community in Ohio. And yet we have voices like this sports writer who tries to speak for her and against her adamant concerns for her life through the power of his position on The Saint Petersburg Times.

    It is hard to imagine the almost unbelievable arrogance of Michael Kruse who has very little knowledge(if any) of Islam, to be willing to try and argue against Rifqa Bary’s frightening concerns for her life.

    The Saint Petersburg Editor and Chief should be held accountable for allowing this amateur on this very serious subject to write on it.

    It is bad enough that we have a certain former sports caster on MSNBC by the name of Keith Olberman who thinks he knows what he is talking about.

  15. says

    And yet this young girl is but only a little over 10 months away from being allowed to make her own choices in life.

    Rifqa Bary has said she loves her parents but fears she will be killed by her father or a Muslim in the community in Ohio. And yet we have voices like this sports writer who tries to speak for her and against her adamant concerns for her life through the power of his position on The Saint Petersburg Times.

    It is hard to imagine the almost unbelievable arrogance of Michael Kruse who has very little knowledge(if any) of Islam, to be willing to try and argue against Rifqa Bary’s frightening concerns for her life.

    The Saint Petersburg Editor and Chief should be held accountable for allowing this amateur on this very serious subject to write on it.

    It is bad enough that we have a certain former sports caster on MSNBC by the name of Keith Olberman who thinks he knows what he is talking about.

  16. says

    It’s interesting that so few of the commentators who base their arguments on the “peaceful verses” of the Quran indicate any understanding of the Islamic principle of “nasikh and mansukh”, or abrogation. In a recent multi-part series on Arabic TV on abrogated verses in the Quran, Zakariya Boutros showed abundant evidence that many mainstream Quranic commentators throughout Islamic history teach that ALL the 174 or so peaceful verses were abrogated by the two verses of the sword, 9:5,29.

  17. says

    There’s ignorance and then there is criminal ignorance. Kruse is guilty of the latter in the ethical realm because he is playing with the life of a young woman.

    BTW, great retorts in this essay, Mr. Spencer, to the several dhimmi apologists for Islam. It was a pleasure to read, though being made aware again of how many fools (including very well educated ones) we have out there whitewashing Mohammed’s brutal, rapacious creed is a little depressing.

  18. says

    Funny to me is that even Kruse’s whitewash description of Islam & it’s kill-apostates tradition is sufficient in itself to discredit Islam as primitive medieval rubbish having no place in modern Western Civilization. Even the comment section there demolishes his absurd apologetics. Does this guy know how foolish he looks?

  19. says

    This posting by Robert Spencer may be the most important by anyone on any site anywhere in the last few weeks. He seems to understand this, given his commitment of a larger than usual amount of space to it. One hopes that enough other non-traditional news people can quote, cite, and link it to spread the word. After all, a life hangs in the balance.

  20. says

    While all of Spencer’s rebuttal points are strong, some by their very nature unavoidably might be more vulnerable to providing apologists like Kruse wiggle room and fudge factors by which they could maintain their tap-dancing. The strongest rebuttal point Spencer provided was in exposing Kruse’s ignorance with regard to Koran verses 2:217 and 4:89 — and this in turn reveals that Kruse is ignorant of the importance of tafsir in Islam. Tafsir is exegesis. Without exegesis by respected Muslim scholars, the Koran remains virtually incomprehensible to the average Muslim. While individual verses may seem clear, they are liable to the cherrypicking exploitation — on both sides, both pro-Islam and anti-Islam. Therefore, when we non-Muslims are learning about Islam, it is not enough simply to read the Koran: one must always supplement that with the tafsirs, the more the better. Spencer’s new book, though I haven’t read it yet, doubtlessly provides a helpful guide to all the relevant tafsirs for all the problematic Koran verses. The tafsirs provide explanations that prominent Muslim scholars have developed for understanding the Koran, and often the tafsir writers have provided what Muslims think is the context for any given verse that our opponents would charge us with having “cherrypicked”. Nine times out of ten, in my experience of reading the tafsirs, the context and Islamic interpretations provided therein only enhance our anti-Islamic arguments. So when Islam apologists (whether Muslim or non-Muslim) respond with one of their common retorts: “You’ve taken it out of context” — we anti-Islam critics need not worry: when we take the trouble to look up what prominent Muslim scholars think is the appropriate context, it not only supports our critical supposition, it often reveals it to be worse.

    For those Koran verses which Spencer had adduced before on this apostasy issue, 2:217 and 4:89, Kruse attempts a rebuttal based on his apparent assumption that Spencer merely plucked those verses out of the Koran. Spencer here above shows that he did not, but that he supplemented those verses with the tafsirs of two prominent Muslim scholars, both of which clearly indicate the worst interpretation, the one Kruse does not want to exist and thinks he can wave out of existence with his sophomoric logic bolstered here and there in irrelevant but superficially pertinent places in his pseudo-argument by quotes from academic experts in Islam.

  21. says

    And nowhere does Kruse cite to the reader that he himself is part of this story, which he now obviously takes personal, as he has been called out many times for his shoddy journalism by Robert Spencer. He should have been recused from this story by his editors weeks ago, not given a large audience for to spout novice PC inaccuracies about Islam as fact. He’s claiming expertise here on matters even life-time scholars don’t agree on. It’s laughable if it were not so dangerous. He only convinces those marginal minds swayed by the authority of a small town editorial by a back bench writer. That’s still too many, unfortunately, and we all suffer for it.

    Kruse could have been forgiven his ignorance of Islam as par for the course for most journalists, but now he has decided to be a partisan for Islamists.

    Bary’s not imagining anything. Her very mosque is a long known radical mosque with terrorist connections, for crying out loud!

  22. says

    Mr. Kruse is absolutely wrong when he says “Is the death penalty for apostates in the Koran? “It’s not.”

    It isn’t in the Koran but I found it here: Bukhari:V4B52N260 “The Prophet said, ‘If a Muslim discards his religion, kill him.'”

  23. says

    P.S.:

    There is also this conceit among PC MC Westerners, a conceit which reflects their general tendency to superimpose upon other cultures aspects of our own Western culture which to these PC MC Westerners, in their ironically and unwittingly provincial view, seem to be universal. One of many ways they do this is to assume that the vast majority of Muslims treat religion the same way we in the West do, thus ignoring the vastly and profoundly different histories these two cultures have gone through, with many of the sociological results from the tumultuous and amazing and complex process of secularism which is unique to the modern West blandly assumed to pertain to Muslim peoples as well.

    As one example of this one could adduce out of many, PC MCs seem to think that the average Muslim has a relationship to his or her Koran in pretty much the same way the average Western Christian does: it’s a book they respect as the word of God, and individually they pick it up at odd times during the day or night to read and gain understanding and comfort from it, and they will augment this by some sermon they might have heard on a given Sunday, perhaps — that is, if they can remember the last sermon they heard, since they haven’t had the time to get to church in the last few weeks or so, due to this, that and the other thing in their busy life, etc. Muslims don’t have this kind of relationship to the Koran. They get virtually all their Koranic substance not by just sitting down in an armchair on a rainy afternoon and deciding to read a Sura or two, or remembering what some Imam said a few weeks ago, or what some Ayatollah preached on Al-Jazeera TV last Friday — no: they get their Koranic substance from their daily prayers, from their weekly sermons, and if they really want to earn extra credit, from learned Imams during the rest of the week.

    In Islam, Koran knowledge is mostly “trickle-down” from clergy down to the masses — for which the tafsirs are essential (cf. my preceding post above) — as well as woven into the fabric of their daily prayers and the rules they have to follow based on Mohammed’s Sayings (Hadiths) which in turn are supposed to be based on, or supplementing, the Koran, and are instilled in the Muslim common man as rules to follow, not as guides to inspiration on a rainy Thursday afternoon which the individual can contemplate and maybe discuss over tea or coffee with some friends next week, or with the pastor when we get around to going to church again. In this respect, the Muslim relationship to scripture is more like the Greek Orthodox: Greek Orthodox don’t go to church to hear some pastor deliver a speech about what he thinks the Bible means and how it relates to the daily news or daily culture. They go there to hear passages of the Bible being recited (and sung or chanted) in a reiterative, liturgical, almost hypnotic sense. They are not there to consider some opinions: they are there to receive the word of God ritually. Take this way of relating to the scripture and ratchet it up a thousand-fold in all the wrong ways – viz., in terms of hypnotic brainwashing and the bypassing of critical faculties and the avoidance of individual reflection in favor of mass group-think and group-action: and there you have the average Muslim relationship to the Bad Book.

  24. says

    Kruse, is somewhat unintentially saying:

    “Islam is no more responsible for 9/11 etc, than Nazism is for the Holocaust. Both have their good and bad points, just like Christianity and American democracy.”

    But Kruse, find me once where slavery and genocide are listed as methods of governing in the latter two, and I will find you dozens in the former two. Indeed, most of the Koran is dedicated to hurting non-Muslims.

  25. says

    Mr. Kruse seems to be the authority on the subject of apostasy in Islam.
    So riddle me this, Mr. Kruse…

    Bukhari:V4B52N260 “The Prophet said, ‘If a Muslim discards his religion, kill him.'”

    And, although it doesn’t mention the death penalty, it does hint at some severe displeasure here…

    Qur’an 72:17 “If any turns away from the reminder of his Lord (the Qur’an), He will thrust him into an ever growing torment, and cause for him a severe penalty.”

    And here: Qur’an 88:21 “You are not a warden over them; except for those who turn away and disbelieve, in which case, he will be punished with the severest punishment. Verily to Us they will return.”

  26. says

    Journalism died long ago. What we have now are elitists, far better educated and informed than the ignorant masses. They see us as vessels to be filled…and they know best what should fill us.
    Unfortunately some are indeed willing to be filled. They still trust in the members of the Ministry of Propaganda and Misinformation to fill them up with Truth. What they get is Kool-aid…tastes great! It must the way they chug it down.
    They are slowly losing their grip on the Truth…as they see it at least. The real Truth is slipping out of their grasp…Thanks to sites like this one that disseminate real Truth.
    The lies of the MSM and their lies of omission are becoming known to even the most devoted watchers of the talking heads of TV.
    Truth is like that. Too bad for them.

    islam is a lie and
    Truth is killing it.

  27. says

    Journalism died long ago. What we have now are elitists, far better educated and informed than the ignorant masses. They see us as vessels to be filled…and they know best what should fill us.
    Unfortunately some are indeed willing to be filled. They still trust in the members of the Ministry of Propaganda and Misinformation to fill them up with Truth. What they get is Kool-aid…tastes great! It must the way they chug it down.
    They are slowly losing their grip on the Truth…as they see it at least. The real Truth is slipping out of their grasp…Thanks to sites like this one that disseminate real Truth.
    The lies of the MSM and their lies of omission are becoming known to even the most devoted watchers of the talking heads of TV.
    Truth is like that. Too bad for them.

    islam is a lie and
    Truth is killing it.

  28. says

    Islam describes Muslims as worshipers and slaves of Allah (ibaad Allah). They have submitted themselves to him and are therefore his possession. The word Islam means, “surrender, devotion and submission”.

    Whoever falls away from faith in Islam commits — from an Islamic perspective — an unforgivable sin. He takes himself away from Allah, his owner — which is theft — and weakens the Islamic state, an action branded as revolt or insurrection. He who falls away from Islam must, according to the Sharia, be prosecuted, taken into custody by force, and called on to repent. If necessary, his return is to be “helped” along with torture. He who does not embrace Islam again has, according to the Sharia, forfeited his life and is to be put to death by the state. According to the daily paper, Al Alam, King Hassan II of Morocco, who is also the imam of his country, presented the following state of affairs before a human rights commission on May 15, 1990:

    “If a Muslim says, ‘I have embraced another religion instead of Islam,’ he — before he is called to repentance — will be brought before a group of medical specialists, so that they can examine him to see if he is still in his right mind.

    After he has then been called to repentance, but decides to hold fast to the testimony of another religion not coming from Allah — that is, not Islam — he will be judged.”
    And we know what THAT means…

    islam is a lie and
    Truth is killing it.

  29. says


    “He [Kruse] ignores, of course, the many Sharia freelancers who have not hesitated to take the death penalty for apostasy into their own hands, and to murder or threaten to murder apostates…

    Why didn’t any of these murderers and threateners wait for their respective governments to take action? “

    In the middle of her informative lecture the impressive Nonie Darwish points out the “trick” in Sharia that effectively forces an Islamic country to abide by Sharia laws on killing apostates and even honor killing. It excuses murder if the victim is an apostate or an adulterer at the hands of a vigilante Muslim. A Muslim doesn’t have to wait for the courts to do Islamic justice, he can take it into his own hands – “That is the brilliance of those who invented Sharia”:

    http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/1829511

  30. says

    A man whose religion was Islam and his nationality is Egyptian married a German Christian and the couple agreed that the husband would join the Christian faith and doctrine.

    1) What is the Islamic ruling in relation to this man? What are the punishments prescribed for this act?

    This man has committed apostasy; he must be given a chance to repent and if he does not then he must be killed according to Shariah.

    Head of the Fatawa Council of Al-Azhr.
    Abdullah al-Mishadd (عبد الله المشد‎)
    23rd September 1978.

    Kruse that.

  31. says

    Kruse concludes that according to the Quran the apostasy penalty is not administered by people in this life. (“Not people. Not in this life.”)

    That’s not correct. 4:89-91 clearly calls for an earthly penalty; the debatable point about 4:89-91 concerns alleged complicating conditions regarding the apostasy, not whether the penalty is to be administered by Muslims in this life. Such issues would have to be settled by examining the context, which comes from the Hadith. In any case, the Hadith clearly and categorically states that apostates are to be put to death, which is th emain reason why all the major schools of Sunni and Shia jurisprudence call for the death of the sane adult male apostate. (The majority of the schools also call for death of the female apostate).

    The idea that the Quran does not command Muslims to punish the disbelievers in this lifetime is absurd (cf 9:5, 9:29-33, 9:123, 8:35, 33:26-27, 47:31, 47:4, etc.). The Quran orders Muslims to fight the disbelievers (e.g., 9:11-14; and according to Maududi that includes apostates). The Quran repeatedly states that disbelievers generally (and that includes apostates) will be punished on earth (i.e., in this life), will not escape in the earth, and will have no protectors on earth (e.g., 9:73-74). Hence, Islamic law explicitly states that there are no penalties for killing an apostate. While the Quran is often ambiguous, it does command Muslims to implement “justice” and permits killing for a “just cause” (e.g., 17:33, 6:151), where this can include killing someone for “spreading mischief/corruption” (5:32-33) or for waging war against Allah and His prophet (hence Qaradawi’s citation of 5:33 as one of the verses supporting the death penalty for apostasy). It is clear from an overall reading that someone who publicly apostatizes from Islam and who furthermore criticizes Islam and encourages others to apostatize constitutes an extremely “sinful” or “criminal” form of mischief/corruption. The Quran repeatedly refers to disbelief as the worst sin/crime that anyone can commit. Apostasy and encouraging others to apostatize is described as worse than killing (2:217).

  32. says

    Why do people pontificate about things they are totally ignorant about? The only way I speak about Islam is from the point of view of an infidel — and I’m very very expert in that. There is NOTHING good coming to us infidels from Islam. Many people are now starting to see that clearly.

  33. says

    “Sharia is just not applied very often, particularly in the modern world,” Berkey said. “There are few places in the Muslim world where much at all of sharia is applied with the force of law.”–from the article.

    Not having researched the extent of sharia implementation in the entire list of Islamic countries, that’s a difficult point for me to refute in a rigorous way, though likewise Berkey doesn’t support his claim. What is clear is that almost all (if not all) of the Islamic countries have signed on to the Cairo Declaration of human rights, which explicitly overrules anything, including the U.N. declaration, contrary to sharia. It also seems fairly clear that almost all (if not all) Islamic countries–including the relatively “moderate” ones–have some sort of criminal penalties for criticism or blasphemy against Islam/Muhammad. That is a major aspect of sharia. There are at least a dozen countries that have the apostasy death penalty on the books, and additional countries like Kuwait that simply reintroduce the apostasy penalty when an actual case arises (as in the Qambar case), other tumultuous countries like Somalia where apostates are killed fairly frequently, and many more that implement various penalties and restrictions on apostates (e.g., Malaysia, Indonesia, Egypt, etc.). Most Muslims in the some of the largest Muslim countries (Indonesia, Pakistan, Egypt, Morocco) want “strict sharia” to be implemented and want “western values” kept out of Islamic countries. Not only is sharia implemented to varying extents in Islamic countries, sharia has been partially implemented in western jurisdictions such as the U.K., and of course elements of sharia have found their way into western society more generally, such as special “religious” provisions for Muslims in schools and the workplace, restrictions on what can be expressed publicly about Islam, and so on.

  34. says

    Michael Kruse should just shut up. Every time he writes something about Rifqa Bary he shows not only his gross ignorance of Islamic fiqh (jurisprudence), but that fact that he isn’t interested in objective journalism, but rather in serving as a propagandist for CAIR. I used to think of Mr. Kruse as merely an idiot dhimmi, but this piece has shown that he is evil as well.

    And again, note that it is always non-Muslims who are being told that Islam doesn’t teach the execution of apostates. It is never the Muslims themselves who are taught these things by Mr. Kruse and his ilk.

    Where was Mr. Kruse a few days ago when the Somali al-Shabaab executed Omar Khalafe for converting to Christianity? Could Mr. Kruse explain to us where the Somali mujahideen got the notion that Islamic law mandates the execution of apostates? I certainly don’t think they got the idea from Robert Spencer.

  35. says

    So will Spencer claim that Professor Berky is a dhimmi now? This just shows why the only people who listen to Spencer are mental invalids and nutters who believe our Commander in Chief was born in Africa.

  36. says

    So will Spencer claim that Professor Berky is a dhimmi now?

    Nice way to dodge the issue. Whether Berky is a dhimmi or not is besides the point. Are his statements factually true or not? Mr. Spencer responds to Berky with evidence derived from Islamic sources. Can you or Mr. Berky respond to the evidence that Mr. Spencer has provided?

    This just shows why the only people who listen to Spencer are mental invalids and nutters who believe our Commander in Chief was born in Africa.

    For someone as lacking in basic logical reasoning skills as yourself, you are very smug. First off, Barack Obama is only the commander-in-chief for those serving in the military. So unless you are currently serving in the armed forces, he is not your commander-in-chief. Second, trying to brush of the soundly argued points of Mr. Spencer by attacking his readers shows that you have not a single intellectual leg to stand on. Whether or not some fans of Robert Spencer are Birthers doesn’t change the facts that Mr. Spencer has brought forward from Islamic sources showing the mandate for executing apostates in Islamic law.

    Now as far as the posters on this site go, yes there is the occasional weirdo who writes a little rant and then is never heard from again. But for the consistent posters, good folks like dumbledoresarmy, Wellington, and Hesperado, well they are obviously far more knowledgeable about Islam then either you or Mr. Kruse, and are far better mannered.

    Try learning a thing or two about Islam and the construction of a logical argument before shooting your mouth of, or else you will be no different then one of the “mental invalids” that you complain about.

  37. says

    Correction to my “P.S.”:

    …that the average Muslim has a relationship to his or her Koran in pretty much the same way the average Western Christian does…

    should be

    …that the average Muslim has a relationship to his or her Koran in pretty much the same way the average Western Christian does to his Bible…

  38. says

    Virgil,

    “good folks like dumbledoresarmy, Wellington, and Hesperado”

    Thanks — and don’t forget Kinana of Khaybar, who supplies lots of important information.

  39. says

    Well done Virgil, the emotion with which you defend your compadres indicates to me an underlying paranoia over your little clique’s outlook and how insignificant you really are. Spencer is the dodging the issue by attacking a third-rate journalist and ignoring what some academics in the article said. I know that your ilk regards Ernst as a dhimmi, but I challenge you to say the same about Berky if you have indeed read his writings. As for Kinana, if you regard regurgitating the ordure put into print by the likes of Andrew Bostom M.D., as “important information,” then you will find no argument from me.

  40. says

    Hesperado – I second your praise of Kinana, whose postings I would rate far above my own efforts, in terms of ‘value adding’ in this forum. I get the impression she/ he has read extensively in the original texts and done a *lot* of intelligent eavesdropping at Islamic websites and forums as well.

    As for the Mohammedtroll’s disgusting and entirely uncalled-for (and false) insult to the work of Dr Andrew Bostom: presumably the Mohammedtroll intends that ‘ordure’ is the only proper term to describe not only the words of brilliant non-Muslim scholars, historians and intelligent observers as handily collated by Mr Bostom, but also to the material many famous *Muslim* scholars, historians, theologians, commentators, jurists, etc., both ancient and modern, whose works also appear collated in Mr Bostom’s books, quite a few at great length. Though of course in the case of such vile Muslim invectives as the Persian Muslim Muhammad Al-Majlisi’s little treatise ‘Lightning Bolts Against the Jews’ (exposed in its entirety for appalled Infidel inspection, on pp. 331-333 of Bostom’s ‘Legacy of Islamic Antisemitism’, ‘ordure’ is a perfectly true and applicable term.

    Perhaps the Mohammedtroll’s gratuitous spew of hate toward Dr Bostom is triggered primarily by the fact that Dr Bostom is a najas Jew?

  41. says

    But honor killings and apostasy executions are not the same thing.

    “This is a basic mistake of conflating two things,” said Brett Wilson, a professor of Islamic studies at Macalester College in Minnesota.
    …………….

    “Honor killings” and apostasy executions are not precisely the same things–but there is a heavy overlap between the two vicious phenomena. Many victims of “honor killings” are held to be behaving in an “un-Islamic” manner, which is considered shaming to the victim’s family, tribe, or religious community.

    This can include refusing to submit to a forced marriage, dating (especially an Infidel), or dressing or behaving in a Western or un-Islamic manner.

    How many victims of “honor killings” have, as a result, been considered “apostates” by their murderers–even if they have not formally renounced Islam, or converted to another faith? I’d say a great number of them.

    Kepha wrote:

    It could be that the Bary family’s mosque (I understand it is the same one that lost the Caner brothers–those Turkish-American boys who grew up to become Baptist theologians). Perhaps it is more Americanized and prudent than others.
    …………….

    Unfortunately not. Rifqa’s family belongs to a very radical–read fundamentalist–mosque. In fact, it was members of this mosque that contacted her father about Rifqa’s conversion–up until then, just suspected by her mother–and insisted he do something about it. This was what directly proceeded her fleeing.

  42. says

    and urges this country’s schools to stop “the empty rhetoric of inclusion and multiculturalism.” the tripe of Kruse

    Here’s Kruse’s entire grievance in a nutshell—-his liberal dream of multiculturalism, political correctness, moral/cultural/religious relativism, (cultural Marxism) has been questioned, insulted, and possibly threatened. No offense is worse than that in the eyes of a left-wing apologist for an abomination like islam, except possibly racism. He will defend his creed to the bitter end, even if it condemns a young girl to a life of pure misery or possibly death at the hands of fanatical muslims.

    It might be true that some muslims do not support the execution of apostates. But muslim apostates are put to death every day and sharia imposes the death penalty for apostasy. Rifqua has shamed her family by running away and converting to Christianity, and she has humiliated and insulted the umma by publicly leaving islam. She is fair game for any muslim and if she is not protected, she will be murdered. She is a filthy Christian now, not only in the eyes of her family and muslims, but apparently in the eyes of her nemesis, Mr. Kruse.

    Why does this arrogant, evil man purport to know more about islam than a girl born into it? How can he callously ignore her terror and believe the slick shysters from CAIR, who are protecting their abominable religion from the scrutiny and condemnation it so richly deserves? How could a sophisticated “journalist” be so naive and gullible? How could he participate in a campaign to throw an innocent child to the muslim wolves? If they send her back to Ohio, she will vanish, never to be seen or heard from again. I hope Mr. Kruse will then feel proud for vindicating islam, the muslim thugs in Ohio, CAIR, and her parents, but I imagine his interest in islam will abate once she has been condemned to death, and he will happily return to the sports page and never give this poor girl another thought.

  43. says

    One can argue endlessly about what the Koran does or does not mean. What is of paramount importance is how Islam is practiced. If the Koran does not mandate the death of apostates, it will matter little to Rifca Bary if she is killed by the “mis-interpreters” of the Koran. It happens all the time.Islam is what its believers believe it to be, and one only has to look at the loathsome Islamic history of the past 50 years to see what that is for so many.

  44. says

    Hey DunstanprepH..You have been brainwaxed.Soros and Ayers love you.Is Ayers’ going to be the “instructor” in the bomb making classes for Mobama’s brownshirt militia? I guess our Mr. Ayers is a little rusty these days.Why isn’t he blowing up buildings against the Afghanistan war? And do you know for certain that Obama WASN’T born in Tanzania?.1.4 million bucks on top of DOJ TAXPAYER money to defend himself against Orly Taitz and Phil Berg..The audacity of BS..Oh and please (amazing the crap you have to go through with these muddleheads) go here to enlighten your waxed up white matter.YOU TOO KRUSE you wanker.Perhaps Mr. Querles KNEW? something that your Saudi/Obama controlled media doesn’t want us to know?..Why aren’t they asking this question? WHO killed Mr. Harris?

    Khttp://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/apr/19/key-witness-in-passport-fraud-case-fatally-shot/

    Anyhoo on to poor Rifqa.Here’s more proof that she WILL NOT be “in good hands with mohio state” if she gets un-ceremoniously carted back to mo-hio.(shackled and cuffed no less-like she was brought to the police station) hell why not put a crown of thorns on her head while they’re at it!.Don’t get any ideas NOOR. Although it would be big o you,not bygamy.

    These links were found in about 30 seconds Kruse YOU IDIOT.(ad-hominem fully intended and well deserved n’est ce pas?) Take the wax out of your brain.. Then you can TRY to find work at Disneyland.
    Actually you’d probably fit right in. You can do an interview with Goofy and jump off a roller coaster.The Rifqa Railroad. That would be a fitting end.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-ttwyNZEu4&feature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_ZWTx-QUj4&feature=related

    That’s TWO out of God knows how many,,They go on and on,yup like me tonight..My first post dammit..A lot of “stuff” to spill.

    No I haven’t read the Koran nor the Bible,but I do read and from what I’ve read and seen this girl and many many more (like Rifqa passionately said) exist in our midst and deserve a chance at freedom in every sense of the word. Her adversaries are despicable lying scum. If they wish to really help her they will leave her alone.She alone will choose her kind and friends.She’s been through enough. Please xomebody (Christoper Hitchens,now’s your chance to be a good hypocrite!) take her to Disneyland while she’s in Florida.

    Right on Virgil, Thanks Robert.

  45. says

    Well Dunceton….just gonna drop a couple of bombs and leave? I thought you were going to entertain us for a while. Sigh… oh well.

    islam is a lie and
    Truth is killing it.

  46. says

    Well done Virgil, the emotion with which you defend your compadres indicates to me an underlying paranoia over your little clique’s outlook and how insignificant you really are.

    I am tempted of course to brush you off with a snide and sarcastic remark (which is more then you deserve), but I will settle for pointing out your complete lack of an argument. Instead of attacking Mr. Spencer, myself, or the other posters here, why don’t you demonstrate with evidence from Islamic sources why Mr. Spencer’s arguments are wrong. You are able to do that right?

    Spencer is the dodging the issue by attacking a third-rate journalist and ignoring what some academics in the article said.

    Did you actually read Mr. Spencer’s response to Kruse? He does address the comments of Berky and the other “academics” mentioned in the article. For example:

    Note that Berkey cites no authorities for his view. I did for mine. In reality, some hold to his opinion that the Koran says nothing about apostasy. But then there is the Hadith, in which Muhammad says, “Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.” Is that statement (and others like it in the Hadith) authoritative for Muslims? Kruse should ask Berkey. I’d like to see what he says.

    You are either incredibly dishonest or incredibly lazy (and that is being charitable).

    I know that your ilk regards Ernst as a dhimmi, but I challenge you to say the same about Berky if you have indeed read his writings.

    Again, you are trying to avoid the subject by splitting hairs over whether we call certain people dhimmis. Whether they deserve the ascription or not is besides the point. What matters here is arguments and whether they are sound or not. You are seemingly trying to avoid the actual subject by appealing to authority. I don’t care about Ernst or Berky as people, but on whether their claims about Islam are true or not. Could you stick to that?

    As for Kinana, if you regard regurgitating the ordure put into print by the likes of Andrew Bostom M.D., as “important information,” then you will find no argument from me.

    You accuse Robert Spencer and the posters here of ignoring the issue and instead attacking some washed up journalist, yet you turn around and completely avoid the topic to take cheap shots at Dr. Bostom and another poster. Again, is the information in Dr. Bostom’s books wrong and if so why. Try bringing actual arguments instead dabbling in drive-by trolling.

  47. says

    Dr. Bostom’s entire “book” contains no original though, why waste my time with refuting what is no more than a Wikipedia article put into binding and passed off to gullible fools who believe the nonsense published by WorldNetDaily. As for the claims that I am a Mohammeden, I have stated before that I am an atheist. I have a personal axe to grind with Spencer, or Bobby as we used to call him. I worship not some moon God or son of a virgin, I worship no false deity. Still, I find the entire concept behind this web site and the modus put out by Spencer to be comical. In the end, I think this website is a waste for those interested in jihad, it does nothing but regurgitate whatever UBL is pooping out this week.

  48. says

    Ok dunstan, if you’ve been given access to that much info and still hold those views, then clearly the truth is not for you. Go back to your koranic study group.

  49. says

    I have better things to do with my time than read some book written centuries ago that nobody can make sense of. That you folks keep retreating to these childless insults and accusations just shows your the lacking of your mental facilities.

  50. says

    DustanH wrote:

    “Dr. Bostom’s entire “book” contains no original though[t]…”

    How does Dustan know that, unless he has read the “entire” book?

    Secondly, as the old saying goes, even a broken clock is right two times a day. Dustan is largely right: Bostom’s books do not contain many “original thoughts”. In fact, most if not all of Bostom’s books on Islam are not meant to contain “original thoughts”: they are meant to supply information that is missing from our current impoverished state of analysis in academe, among politicians and among the general public — an impoverished state of analysis mostly the result of the bracketing out of Islamic information by the dominant and mainstream politically correct multi-culturalists throughout the West, a bracketing out due to a complex combination of ordinary ignorance, stupidity, laziness, and that peculiar phenomenon of political correctness far worse than mere ignorance or mere stupidity which I call intelligent stupidity or quantum ignorance (and one should also add that it entails a good deal of what could be called industrious laziness).

    What Bostom supplies in his books are copious reproductions of the texts of Muslims throughout the ages up to the present, as well as the texts of historians and Western scholars of Islam many of whose works have not been republished and can only be found on the dusty shelves of dusty academic libraries — and often those works are not books themselves, but are journal articles in dusty old scholarly journals, some of which have been discontinued as serials. Bostom went to the painstaking trouble of ferreting these out. I myself have spent a fraction of the time and effort Bostom has in this regard, using my access (without which the ordinary Googler is out of luck) to scholarly articles on the Net, and I have come across quite a few important ones. The historians and Islam scholars that Bostom has hunted down and brought back into circulation in his books represent an age of scholarship when scholars were not constrained by the dominant PC MC that hinders our scholars today. While a few of them even back then were PC MC (I have found two or three from the 19th century and one from 1917), the majority of them were not. We now live in an age where that equation has been reversed: the majority now are PC MC in terms of whitewashing Islamic culture and history, while only a tiny minority dare to go against the grain. It is important to read those scholars and see what scholarship says about Islam when that scholarship is not hamstrung by PC MC concerns.

    A refutation of Bostom would have to refute the sources he has collected and published. It is those sources who express things about Islam, not Bostom. Simply dismissing them with labels, as Dustan does, is simply insufficient.

  51. says

    This poor girl is now being sent back to her radical family–does everyone in Florida forget that the father had bought tickets to take her back to whatever country they came from(was it Sri Lanka?), where she could be:

    1. Killed more easily
    2. Married off to some Islamic scum and forced to be his slave

    How the state of Florida can do this, fold in front of CAIR and ignore the evidence, I just cannot comprehend. On top of that, now they want to go after the Christian pastor and his family for sheltering her.

    Why can’t they just leave her in foster care ’til she’s 18 and then let her go her own way?

    I am weeping.

  52. says

    Whoever falls away from faith in Islam commits — from an Islamic perspective — an unforgivable sin. He takes himself away from Allah, his owner.

    Slaves. I write and speak of Slave Rags as Jdamn calls the Hijab and such, of “freeing muslims from the slavery of islam”. That is, I use that word slave and its derivatives regularly with regard to islam but…

    But I guess, until now, I never considered the actual ownership aspect that the word slavery implies, is indivisible from. I was mostly thinking of the endless rules and regs for everyday life that islam presents as law.
    Looking at it from a purely slave/owner perspective, those that kill apostates are really just returning runaway slaves to their owner! What could be wrong with that?
    Runaway slaves…to their owner.

    How much more morally reprehensible can one get?! They find themselves among the modern day slave hunters. And…by what koinkidink is it that islam takes the lead in actual human slavery? No coincidence.
    Hmm…can slaves own slaves? Clearly. Do they see the irony? Doubtful.
    Methinks the majority of muslims are unaware of their “slave” status, until they think about converting to “X” religion. Shortly thereafter all becomes clear.

    islam is a lie and
    Truth is killing it.

  53. says

    From darcy…
    “Well, think Michael Kruse will learn anything???!”

    If he does he’ll be in no hurry to reveal that fact…if he does the typical thing. Ignores the Truth.
    If not I’ll be stunned and amazed as well as delighted.

    islam is a lie and
    Truth is killing it.

  54. says

    Well said indeed Virgil…saved me some typing and hit all the relevant points.
    I’ll add a lil’ sumpin’ probably better/easier understood by the poster.
    Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can never harm me. Particularly the ones you chose to use.
    Nutter? Hmm…where are you from? Just wonderin’. I’ve never used the term. I’ve heard Brits use it…Aussies as well. Whatever…

    islam is a lie and
    Truth is killing it.

  55. says

    Do you honestly believe that we have not seen YOUR ilk here before?
    Do you believe that you are the first to put forth the kind of “argument” that you present?
    Prepare to have your intellectual ass handed to you…as so many have. Not by me necessarily. I’ve been aware of the lies of islam for a short time compared to the real brains here. I have learned one thing for sure. I will never submit…never. And you know what that means.
    You may regard your time here as beneficial, as educational. More likely what you may be presented with here will be something you are trying desparately to ignore.
    The Truth about islam. I see the Truth about islam every day. Usually there are two or three outstanding examples a day. Whether it’s the arrest of terrorists planning attacks here in the US…or the detonation of a bomb in Iraq at a market murdering men women and children. I might read about a young convert from islam who fears for her/his life due to the religious convictions
    of her parents.
    The death of the young Christian who was beaten and stabbed to death for drinking from the wrong cup…a muslims only cup comes to mind. All was well ’til the Father saw the Crucifix around his neck, then he and his sons murdered him.
    Every day an example of muslims practicing what their imams and ayatoilets preach. Every day.
    Time for a stab at moral equivalence? Go ahead.
    “little cliques outlook”…funny that. Our little clique. Keep thinking that way. Underestimate us. That suits me fine.
    Islam is slavery to Allah. Free men tend to resist slavery. I think that when it comes to a choice between slavery and freedom, when the choice is made clear, freedom is going to be the choice of the majority every time. All debate is thereby, to me at least, rendered meaningless…but sometimes entertaining. I find no value in debate concerning islam. Debating the “literature” surrounding the mental excretions of a madman/pervert named mo (Piss be upon him) can be entertaining but is ultimately pointless.
    Have fun while you’re here. I know I will most certainly be entertained.

    islam is a lie and
    Truth is killing it.

  56. says

    “I have better things to do with my time than read some book written centuries ago that nobody can make sense of.”
    Like come here and insult and demean your betters?
    Coming from you that is absolutely hilarious!
    I just love it…I have to quote you again…
    “I have better things to do with my time than read some book written centuries ago that nobody can make sense of.”
    That’s exactly how I feel about the koran…but I read it anyway…the better to know my enemy,; and yours if you consider yourself to be a free man.
    How can you begin to grasp the threat that islam presents to free men if you’ve not read it? And yet, not having read it, you feel free to pass judgment on those of us here who have and are attempting to make others aware of that danger.
    That’s what I call pretty damned stupid for an intellectual.

    Funny how atheists always seem themselves as better than those with a faith…more enlightened.
    I am agnostic, as any reasoning being knows that somewhere in the vastness of what is, there is a supreme intelligence just as there is some person here on earth with the highest intelligence. What you choose to call that intelligence is irrelevant. It exists regardless of your opinion or what you call it.
    So books written long ago have no value if you have to engage your brain to get a grip on what is written, or at least make your own attempt at making sense of it.
    You sound awfully lazy and ill informed by your own admission.

    You insult all of us here with your snotty tone and clearly evident arrogance from your first post to your last.
    Take you superior attitude and pack it punk. There…how was that for childish?

    islam is a lie and
    Truth is killing it