Remarks during the question-and-answer session:
Nonie says that she hopes that the Left as well as the Right will take up the cause of the apostates.
Ibn Warraq says that the Left tends to side with the Islamists. Liberals tend to be more politically correct, but many on the Right, religious conservatives, tend to be wary of criticizing somebody else's religion. So both sides downplay the danger of creeping Sharia and the Islamization of the West. We need to educate the political class on both sides.
Nonie says that she believes that there is a huge number of Muslims who don't practice Islam anymore. Ibn Warraq cites an article by Anthony Browne in the Times of London (2005), saying that 200,000 Muslims have left Islam in England alone, and face persecution and death threats. In France the churches keep figures of the number of people who convert from Islam to Christianity, about 200 a year. In Indonesia, many Hindus -- several hundred thousand -- who had converted to Islam were converting back.
Nonie says there are TV shows beaming into the Arab world promoting Christianity. People call in from places like Saudi Arabia saying they left Islam. But if you're in Saudi Arabia, what can you do? You can't go to church, you can't have a Bible, you can't hand on your Christian faith to your children, so what can you do?
Mr. Ali from Saudi Arabia has agreed to sign the pledge calling for an end to the death penalty for apostasy, the pledge being circulated by Former Muslims United. Ibn Warraq says that they're going to post two videos on YouTube -- an atheist filming in Mecca and an imam saying that atheism is growing in Saudi Arabia. At least ten people in Riyadh have proclaimed their atheism.
Nonie says that Islam is very threatened by other religions. In mosques she grew up hearing prayers, "May God destroy the Jews and the infidels." This is how we used to end our religious service. When you grow up with this, it can even sound normal, and good and holy.
We are trying to alert the government to our plight. I received many hate emails, and threatening emails, and I called the FBI. They were very understanding, and took copies, but that was it. So we are living in America, with books being sold and read in mosques encouraging people to kill us. It is not solely taught in the Middle East. It is taught in every religious institution. This is serious. We are in fear for our lives. We are asking the government for help. We are very vulnerable. We are asking for some kind of legislation that will help protect us. It is a very unique thing. There isn't any other religion on earth that demands the murder of those who leave it except the Mafia. But at least you enter the Mafia willingly and voluntarily. In Islam, you're born into it. The threat crosses borderlines. Salman Rushdie is not Iranian. He was not born in Iran. The threat is an international network of tyranny against us, and it's coming to a neighborhood near you.
I don't understand how anyone can not believe Rifqa Bary. She is 17 years old. She is obviously a very sweet young girl. Her fear is in my opinion 100% true. The Islamic legal system is against her. Even if her father and mother are the nicest people, they are under pressure from the Islamic community to do something about their child. She has crossed the line. They will never allow her to live as a Christian. It's impossible! It's not allowed under Islam! I wonder: if this girl was a Mormon, or a Jewish girl running for her life, I wonder if the government would be siding against her. We must not be afraid of Islam.
Islam is a very political religion. Islam is a state. That is why they are always counting the number of Muslim congressmen, and trying to increase the number of Muslim representatives. Islam is political, and is determined to conquer. Fast during Ramadan, pray five times a day, go to Hajj, and listen to us and do what we say. There is an underground Muslim organization in every Muslim state threatening the Muslim ruler with death if he does not adhere to Sharia. Reformers, those who try to bring democracy, are automatically apostate. If you're a good Muslim and you follow Sharia, you have to follow all of it. You can't pick and choose.
Jamal Jivanjee, a friend of Rifqa Bary, says he is frustrated that the media won't tell the stories of apostates. Rifqa is 17. She could speak for herself. Why won't the mainstream media let apostates tell their stories? Nonie answers that people think we're exaggerating, when we tell them that Islam teaches that apostates must be killed. Many people think Rifqa is exaggerating and that she just ran away because she wanted to be free or something. Americans don't know so much about Islam and the Middle East conflict. They think terrorism against Israel started with the "occupation." I saw terrorism against Israel as a child in Gaza, long before the apostates. When I was growing up, I thought it was all normal. I thought that apostates were justly killed. I thought it was normal that a woman who was no longer a virgin would be killed in an honor killing. I changed because I saw a better way of living. I learned. I became an American. I used to think that apostates deserved to be killed. It's Allah's law. Now I think back and wonder, how could I have ever believed these things? I was indoctrinated. I went to school and was taught to hate the Jews, and that Jews must be killed, and I believed it. And now I see these things coming to America. Apostate killing is here. Honor killing is here. Antisemitism is here.
I was an antisemite. I was taught to hate Jews even though we never saw them. America changed me. Once I said to the sheikh that I felt compassion for the many poor people I saw in Egypt, but he told me that they were poor because Allah wanted them to be poor. I see so much cruelty and dysfunction in Islamic society. Muslims don't worship only God; they worship their leaders. The system promotes dictatorships and tyranny.
I came to America and I was surprised that the churches didn't end their prayers with curses of the non-Christians. I was surprised that the priest prayed for everyone, even the nonbelievers. But it took me a long time to figure it out. Too long. Rifqa Bary -- this girl figured it out at seventeen. I figured it out at 47.
I asked Nonie just now about the claim, just posted by our friend Abdullah Mikhail, from Dr. Jamal Badawi that "there are scholars who distinguish between apostasy on a personal level, which is not punishable by death, and apostasy that is accompanied by what we call today high treason, in which case the punishment is for high treason, not for apostasy." She read a fatwa from Al-Azhar saying that an ex-Muslim living in Germany had to be killed -- this fatwa contradicted Badawi's claim, as the ex-Muslim in Germany was in no way committing treason against any state. Apostasy is punishable by death in Islamic law, and not just for treason.
Nonie says that it is very dangerous to believe anyone who claims to be an apostate, because terrorists will come in to the organization and infiltrate it. Nonie also, in response to a question, explains that Reliance of the Traveller -- Umdat al-Salik -- contains detailed directives regarding the killing of apostates. It is certified by Al-Azhar as a reliable guide to Sharia. Meanwhile, it is all one-sided. Muslims have total access to the West, and can preach and spread Islam, but we cannot build churches, etc., in Muslim lands. We are going to see majority-Muslim areas in Europe and there will be violence there as there is now in Chechnya and Israel.
The Harpy and her song.
On sale now, Check Please!
Shameless self promotion.
Yellow Journalism.
I prefer...
Peace
Abdullah
Care to refute any of what she says, AM, or are you going to hurl insults like the petulant intellectual child you are?
"religious conservatives, tend to be wary of criticizing somebody else's religion."
Ibn Warraq is right, but he needs to understand he's not talking about true Christians. As any true Christian will tell you, there is only one true religion. So when criticizing islam or hinduism, you are not criticizing a religion, you are merely criticizing a group of people worshipping a false god and his fake symbols. Or in the case of islam, the deluded ravings of a mad man who took a bunch of uneducated illiterate arabs and got them to kill in the name of a false devil he thought up while high/drunk in a cave.
Of course Mohammad only had the time to think up all his hilarious cult's rules due to his sugar mommy's patronage, but I won't hold that against him.
Nonie is so brave! ...as are ALL Former Muslims willing to speak the Truth about Islam.
"there are scholars who distinguish between apostasy on a personal level, which is not punishable by death,"
Apparently you dug up one that makes no distinction.
Peace
Abdullah
Sure,
Nonie had a poor upbringing, focused on all the bad things she ever ecxperienced in life and that she could dredge up and put into print, then she got on a soap box and started selling copy.
Peace
Abdullah
”Nonie says that it is very dangerous to believe anyone who claims to be an apostate, because terrorists will come in to the organization and infiltrate it.”
This rather seriously undermines the other hopeful statistics cited by the same article about all those Muslims leaving Islam all over the place. Exactly how are we going to trust any given Muslim who claims to have apostasized? What will be the criteria for trusting them? Obviously, there are no foolproof criteria. A battery of questions as a litmus test would hardly suffice, for the clever Muslims will learn how to give the right answers (if they don’t already know now). A severely suspicious disposition with regard to any claimed ex-Muslim would be the very least we should do to protect ourselves from this problem that Nonie Darwish herself found it important to state. And so, how would that severely suspicious disposition on our part manifest itself concretely? Nothing short of 24-hour surveillance will do, if we want to prevent a WMD attack. How are we going to implement 24-hour surveillance of a growing population of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands, of alleged apostates?
Maybe we shouldn't sweat it, and just consider any future attacks that happen on our soil as so much collateral damage on the road to the greater good of our humanitarian project of saving these Muslims from Islam -- which, in turn, in the minds of some in the Anti-Islam Movement, will dovetail into the Great Brown Hope that Muslims (whether "moderates" or apostates or a combination of both) are the only way to save us from the dangers their own Islam causes.
some Muslims find themselves stuck in the Islamic mud, they climb out and vowing never to return there..other Muslims prefer to stay stuck inthe Islamic mud vowing never to leave..
"Nonie had a poor upbringing, focused on all the bad things she ever ecxperienced in life." (Islam)
"and that she could dredge up and put into print, then she got on a soap box and started selling copy.
(Just because she made money on the books she wrote doesnt make them untrue, does it Mikey?)
You evil creep Mohammedan Ab Mik.
Nonie Darwish is so far ahead of you in intelligence there's no describing it. You are an insect, a dung beetle, Nonie is one of the most brilliant women on the face of the planet.
Poor Ab Mik the dung beetle! LOL! Got your share of Dung today, primitive savage lobotomized Ab Mik? Eating the dung you got as a dung beetle?
Nonie Darwish - Brilliant!
Ab Mi is one of the most EVIL persons I have ever seen. Along with Hitler and Mass-Murdering Mohamet. Get out of our Judeo-Christian country, Barbarian Mik. Go live in Yemen, you Hypocrite, follower of satan - "allah" (i.e. Warlord Mohamet). There is no "allah" - Thank God Jesus!
Go live in Yemen, Barbarian Ab Mik.
Poor Ab Mik - A "poor upbringing" with Imbecile GED "parents." Pity poor Ab Mik with his Imbecile "parents" - trailer trash.
You can tell that Ab Mik has suffered enormously genetically from his imbecile trailor-trash "parents" - when they were home. Pity Mik! A genetic Throwback.
Meanwhile - BRILLIANT NONIE DARWISH! BRAVA NONIE!
Jamal Badawi's reference to the non-Muslim, Western notion of "high treason," and contrasting this with mere "personal" apostasy from Islam, is highly misleading. The main distinction that is made by jurists who want to punish apostasy is between public apostasy and private apostasy. For the sane adult male Muslim who comes to disbelieve in Islam and merely states to the effect that he is no longer a Muslim, and who refuses to repent and revert to Islam when given the opportunity to do so, is deemed sufficient grounds for administering the death penalty. (The schools vary on whether a female apostate should be killed, or imprisoned, or punished in other ways). Obviously, private apostasy (i.e., of one who converts out of Islam but doesn't reveal this fact to others) can't be punished, because there would have to be verbal or behavioural evidence of the apostasy to warrant the punishment.
Qaradawi discusses the mainstream view, distinguishing between those who apostatize publicly and those who do so privately.
http://www.islamonline.net/English/contemporary/2006/04/article01c.shtml
Well, Darcy, you little screamer, you got me there...
Nonie, a self promoting yellow journalist...
And then there's me, a specialist in nuclear weapons...
Yeah, I gotta give you props on that one...
I shiver in the shadow of here intelligence quotient.
("We're not worthy!!!" Wayne & Garth)
: )
Peace
Abdullah
Poor Primitive Savage Barbarian Mohammedan Ab Mik - so JEALOUS that *Nonie* - Brava Nonie! - has a book, and HE DOESN'T! lol!
Poor JEALOUS AB MIK, THE SPAWN OF GED TRAILER-TRASH "parents." Misogynist Mik - like ALL Mohammedan Primitive Savage Mohammedan Barbarians. And he lives in the USA! HYPOCRITE MIK!
"(Just because she made money on the books she wrote doesnt make them untrue, does it Mikey?)"
Motive, means, opportunity...follow the money and you'll find the criminal intent behind it.
There is a motive and it isn't alruism...chaching!
Peace
Abdullah
Poor Ab Mik - the spawn of trailer-trash, a genetic Throwback!
Poor Ab Mik - so JEALOUS of Brilliant Nonie! HA-HA, Nonie has a book, AND YOU DON'T! lol!
Primitive, savage, Moslem Barbarian Mik - who feels so inferior he has to "convert" to evil Islam which gives him the OK to murder "Infidels." INFERIOR MIK! Oh, it so shows!
Why aren't you living In an Islamic country? Well, why aren't you? NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR YOU? LOL!
"And then there's me, a specialist in nuclear weapons..." -- Abdullah Mikail, above.
Oh, really? Then we need to report you to the FBI.
When apologists claim or imply that there is no death penalty in Islam for mere public apostasy, they are making use of non-Muslim Westerner's assumption that killing someone for apostasy would be a very strange and extreme injustice, i.e., murder. How could a religion call for something so terrible? To naive non-Muslims, it seems, on the face of it, incredible. What the apologists don't mention is that Islam also has the death penalty for other actions and expressions that go against Islam, a penalty which seems wildly disproportionate and unjustified to non-Muslim Westerners.
For example, Islamic law prescribes the death penalty for each of the following, none of which involves violence or "treason," etc.: Adultery, sorcery/witchcraft, sex and/or marriage between a non-Muslim man and a Muslim woman, and blasphemy.
Of course, apologists will claim that all of these punishments do not reflect true Islam. The problem for apologists is that the death penalty for those non-violent sin-crimes is based on a combination of the Quran and Hadith.
The most closely related "crime" to mere public apostasy is blasphemy; indeed, blasphemy by a Muslim is often taken as evidence of apostasy, and public apostasy often constitutes blasphemy.
Blasphemy is considered by some jurists as verbal "war against Allah and His prophet," and is hence subject to the penalties in 5:33. Likewise, blasphemy and apostasy are both considered to fall into the broad category of mischief/corruption (fasad).
From the popular site Islam-qa (Alex traffic rank 9,562):
"Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah said:
Muhaarabah (waging war against Islam) is of two types: physical and verbal. Waging war verbally against Islam may be worse than waging war physically – as stated above – hence the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) used to kill those who waged war against Islam verbally, whilst letting off some of those who waged war against Islam physically. This ruling is to be applied more strictly after the death of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). Mischief may be caused by physical action or by words, but the damage caused by words is many times greater than that caused by physical action; and the goodness achieved by words in reforming may be many times greater than that achieved by physical action. It is proven that waging war against Allaah and His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) verbally is worse and the efforts on earth to undermine religion by verbal means is more effective.[...]"
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/14231/apostasy
@TexanStar001
Wouldn't it be more accurate to say :
"to kill in the name of a REAL devil" instead of
"to kill in the name of a false devil" ?
I still equate Allah to Satan or Mephistofeles or Belzebub or some lesser Shaitan....
You never answer the question, alweas two step one back, and one to the side. Okay i will repeat it.
"(Just because she made money on the books she wrote doesnt make them untrue, does it Mikey?)"
Really, AM, you ought to try a different tack. You convince virtually no one here because JW posters are, with few exceptions, well informed about Islam's many supremacist designs and thus immune to charges of "Islamophobia.". You should be ashamed, all Muslims should be ashamed, that you even have to engage in tortuous, abstruse arguments about how Islam really, truly, honest to goodness doesn't want those who leave Islam terminated. Notice that no other religion even has to participate in denying such barbaric dictates.
Islam is a burden to the entire world. You are proof of this in microcosm.
People - there's no such thing as "Palestinians."
Read this:
"March 31, 1977, the Dutch newspaper Trouw published an interview with Palestine Liberation Organization executive committee member Zahir Muhsein. Here's what he said:
"The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism.
For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan."
Porksword,
Your snide comments aside...
"(Just because she made money on the books she wrote doesnt make them untrue, does it Mikey?)"
Sensational opinion and bias projection can't be labeled "true" or "false" ... no one can verify her personal claims of what she saw and heard and what she was "taught"... or what people preached to her...
No proof. It does not level of the law... heresay does not count as proof.
And then one must question the motive. What is her motive?
I see her screaming a lot and selling copy...money is the motive. Not truth, or justice, nothing altruistic...just gold.
If there was no gold to dig, you would find "noble Nonie" with her shovel in hand, it's that simple.
Do you want the truth?
Trust those who ask you for nothing...
or are you one of those who trust Scientology? Of course they will tell you their "truth"...
...once the check clears.
Peace
Abdullah
Ab Mik - you're a criminal.
I followed up on the following extract from Ms. Darwish's speech:
"Jamal Jivanjee, a friend of Rifqa Bary, says he is frustrated that the media won't tell the stories of apostates..."
Jivanjee's bio at a site called "Illuminate" mentions that his father was a Shi'ite Muslim. Perhaps the man knows what he's talking about when he calls attention to Rifqa's plight--he's another Christian stemming from a Muslim lineage. May his name soon become Legion.
I agree with Darcy...Abdullah is one creepy dude...He has never converted anyone on JW and he never will.
His pathetic tries are just bandwidth theft...
Thanks duh swami.
Ab Mik needs to have his head examined. Anyone who follows such an insane ideology as Islime needs mental treatment, as it's a psychopath's belief system. Ted Bundy would have loved Islime. Thankfully the serial killer was fried before he could convert.
This thread is great...I can almost see AM's veins popping out with frustration and anger. He's been outed, if you will, and doesn't know how to hide anymore. Just keep hurling your insults toward Noni...I'm she really cares what a muslim man has to say to her. She's over it, the islam that is, and you are nothing but an islamic apologist without a leg to stand on.
Is abdullah a "good" muslim?
Does he fight and kill in the way of allah? Or does he ask for exemption from fighting and slaying?
9:44
Those who believe in Allah and the Last Day ask thee for no exemption from fighting with their goods and persons. And Allah knoweth well those who do their duty.
9:45
Only those ask thee for exemption who believe not in Allah and the Last Day, and whose hearts are in doubt, so that they are tossed in their doubts to and fro.
Follow the "good" muslim and you'll find the criminal intent behind him trying to please allah; encouraged by mohammad's made up religion islam to fight and kill all non-muslim.
Let's all go to Saudi Arabia and build the biggest Christian Church the world has ever seen.
We will announce that we welcome Christians of all sects, Catholics, Mormons, Baptists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, and we will even welcome Jews because we also worship with the "Book", as Muhammad referred to it.
Do you suppose they would allow us to build an edifice to God? Apparently he is the same God that they worship.
And Muhammad recognized Christ, even though he refused to admit that he was the son of God because he wanted all the glory. Muhammad had to proclaim himself as "the last prophet" and there was no way he could compete with Christ so he had to lower Christ to the level of a simple prophet like himself.
It is such an evil conspiracy. I am so glad that people like Ibn, Robert, Nonie, Pamela, Wafa, and the many others have the nerve, and are even risking their lives to speak out against this Satanic ideology.
We've seen the results of what Islam can do in the news recently. If it weren't for these people and the FBI doing a great job we would be in the middle of another September 11th, July 7th or worse. The President certainly doesn't seem to care.
Dearest Abdullah,
The Tafsir al Qurtubi , the Tafsir al Jalayn ,
Hadith of Bukhari and all schools of Islamic
jurisprudence are all unanimous on converting
from Islam . A person who leaves the faith should
be killed by whoever finds them! There are 4
Islamic countries who make converting from
Islam punishable by state execution . At least
4 others who make it punishable by time in prison.
So forget Nonie.I am giving you facts. Try and
find me one Christian religious book or country
that talks about converting from Christianity
as a crime and/or worthy of death.And please I
don't want any examples from the old Testament,
for a Christian its all about the words of Jesus
and the New Testament. Feel free to look among the
writings of St.Peter, St Paul , St James ,
St. Xavier , Pope John Paul and St Augustine, not
mention of course the 4 Gospels.
May the light of Jesus shine upon you,
F. Xavier
Former Muslims United huh? I saw the pictures and videos over at the Botox Queen's website and all I saw were two former Muslims, and three of the usual suspects: two Jews and a Jhimmi. Well done Bobby, I assume that since you were in DC today for this little event we may get the chance to meet tomorrow at the Stop the Islamization of America event, I look forward to seeing you again in the flesh.
AbdullahMikail: "there are scholars who distinguish between apostasy on a personal level, which is not punishable by death,"
Apparently you dug up one that makes no distinction."
Do you fail to see that there is a serious issue here, that there is a problem when one (yes, even one!) makes such a distinction.
You're a big fan of moral equivalence between the major religions; this fatwa in question was ordered by the Fatwa Council of Al-Azhr University. Find one of these in contemporary Jewish or Christian teachings. If you do happen to find one, I'll give you 10 articles criticising that position from other Christian or Jewish writers.
I find it comforting that you find these fatwas totally alien to Islamic faith. But please, we have eyes and we're not stupid. We know that many of your co-religionists will read and believe and act on these writings. And as much as you try to convince us otherwise, that Islam is about peace and love, once again, we can see the evidence that it is not.
Ah Xavier, you beat me to it!
You asked for nothing from the Old Testament, I asked for contemporary. I guess the biggest problem I have is that AbdullahMikail would have us think that he is a post reformist Muslim, when we're all waiting for a reformist movement.
I wish him well in promoting the reform agenda. It takes courage to stand up to authorities and publicly exclaim "You're wrong!"
mikeymike,
I disagree about AM. He doesn't see himself as a reformer. In his mind, Islam needs no reform, and all aspects of it that seem to need reform in the minds of non-Muslim Westerners are either misunderstandings due to misinformation, distortions due to our paranoid bigotry, and various fudge factors such as "cultural" practices that have nothing to do with Islam and "war zones" that elicit violent behavior that is common to all societies when there is a war; etc.
The big difference between Christianity and Islam as I see it is that in Christianity the Old Testement is really old and not bugging us much anymore. In Islam, however, .......
Mikeymike,
Seven Mikey, seven ( 7 ) contemporary rabbanical "fatwas" and it took me thirty seconds to find them once I looked.
You now owe us seventy ( that's 70 ) independant condemnations in writing from Rabbis with referenced web sites so we can all go look them up.
Get to work, Mikey:
1) http://news.antiwar.com/2009/01/26/military-rabbi-urged-troops-to-show-no-mercy-in-gaza/
“…told troops that the civilian population of the Gaza Strip was not innocent, and urges them to “spare your lives and the lives of your friends and not to show concern for a population that surrounds us and harms us.”
2) http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1270038.stm
The spiritual leader of Israel's ultra-orthodox Shas party, Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, has provoked outrage with a sermon calling for the annihilation of Arabs.
http://news.ronatvan.com/2008/03/29/israeli-rabbi-calls-for-terrible-revenge/
Prominent Israeli rabbi calls for hanging sons of Palestinian gunmen as he quotes biblical Book of Esther.
3) http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1180527966693&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FPrinter
“Eliyahu ruled that there was absolutely no moral prohibition against the indiscriminate killing of civilians during a potential massive military offensive on Gaza aimed at stopping the rocket launchings.”
4) http://www.mpacuk.org/content/view/5245/102/
“All civilians living in Gaza are collectively guilty for Kassam attacks on Sderot, former Sephardi chief Rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu has written in a letter to Prime Minister Ehud Olmert. According to Jewish war ethics, wrote Eliyahu, an entire city holds collective responsibility for the immoral behavior of individuals. In Gaza, the entire populace is responsible because they do nothing to stop the firing of Kassam rockets. "If they don't stop after we kill 100, then we must kill a thousand," said Shmuel Eliyahu. "And if they do not stop after 1,000 then we must kill 10,000. If they still don't stop we must kill 100,000, even a million. Whatever it takes to make them stop."”
5) http://jta.org/news/article/2008/01/03/106217/wolpeolmert
Rabbi wants Olmert hanged
“He added that the prime minister, Vice Premier Haim Ramon, Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni and Defense Minister Ehud Barak would be “hanged from the gallows” were Israel run properly.”
6) http://antiisgood.wordpress.com/2008/03/20/rabbi-lior-says-it%E2%80%99s-ok-to-kill-civilians-and-other-rabbis-are-silent/
“The day before the Israeli army shot tank shells to disperse a crowd of demonstrators in Rafah, Rabbi Dov Lior issued a ruling that killing civilians during warfare is permitted”
7) http://leadingedgepublications.co.uk/article.asp?ID=5195
Extremist rabbi Yousef Falay “If they (Palestinians) escape then it is good; but if anyone of them remains, then he should be exterminated", the fanatic rabbi added in his article.”
...or now is where you backpeddle, add conditions to your request that purposefully make my burden of proof in this impossible. That's usually the tack you guys take.
Hesperado,
You are correct. It is the human being that is failing to properly apply themselves to the high standard of Islam. The religion is perfect, it is the human being that is not.
Peace
Abdullah
Mikemike,
Woops! I missed counting one... make that eight Rabbanical genocide fatwas...but hey, I only asked for seventy ( 70 ) independant verifiable Rabbanical condemnations that you promised us you could prove...so I'll let you off on the last ten.
Get to work Mikey...it's going to be a long day and night before you realize you can't do it.
Peace
Abdullah
Abdullah,
All those rabbi fatwas are exculpated because of the excuse that they refer to a "war zone".
How does it feel to swallow your own medicine?
Why anyone would want to live under Islamic rule or covert to Islam,thereby associating oneself with the violent elements of this religion is beyond me.
Well,I guess Islam means 'to submit' and its followers are willing to follow blindly and without question.
Hesperado,
You are giving the wrong prescription, doc.
The medecine you offered is labeled "Occupation Force"...
usually prescribed soon after the medical procedure entitled "Invasion Force"...
Nice try, though.
Peace
Abdullah
Occupation Force?
Israel does not occupy Gaza and hasn't so for many years, Israel went into Gaza after months of rocket attacks on their civilans, and they went in there to protect themselves from this Hamas provocation.
Where are the Christian fatwas? Does the Israeli government even listen to these Extremists rabbis? If not then how can you conflate the two? You call them "Extremists" so does that mean you think they aren't following Judism correctly? You could only find 8 jewish kooks, where as Jihad is Global? Sounds like pure rethoric coming from eight kooks, because the IDF & IAF bent over backward to insure Palestinian Civilians were not killed. Ie. They went through great pains to minimize the collateral damage.
But don't take my word for it, take Richard Kemp's:
“I think Israel has very little choice other than to carry on with its military operations until it reaches the conclusion it needs which is to stop Hamas from firing rockets at its people in its territory.
It has set out on this operation to do that and the civilian and military deaths on all sides of course are absolutely tragic. But Israel doesn’t have any choice apart from defending its own people.
[F]rom my knowledge of the IDF and from the extent to which I have been following the current operation, I don’t think there has ever been a time in the history of warfare when any army has made more efforts to reduce civilian casualties and deaths of innocent people than the IDF is doing today in Gaza.
However, Hamas, the enemy they have been fighting, has been trained extensively by Iran and by Hezbollah, to fight among the people, to use the civilian population in Gaza as a human shield.
Hamas factor in the uses of the population as a major part of their defensive plan. So even though as I say, Israel, the IDF, has taken enormous steps – and I can tell you about some of those if you’re interested – to reduce civilian casualties, it is impossible, it is impossible to stop that happening when the enemy has been using civilians as a human shield.”