Tiny Minority of Extremists Update: the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful, tolerant, law-abiding, democratically minded, and...pray for the destruction of unbelievers every Friday. One reasonably courageous Saudi cleric wants to end all that -- but would doing so constitute bid'a, an unacceptable innovation?
"Saudi cleric urges prayer reform," by Magdi Abdelhadi for BBC News, September 7 (thanks to Charles B.):
A leading Saudi cleric has called on Muslims not to pray for the destruction of unbelievers.A supplication to that effect is often reiterated at the end of every Friday prayer in Arab countries, something critics say can radicalise youth.
Sheikh Salman al-Awda said such prayers were against Islamic sharia.
But he added they were permissible if the interests of Muslims were harmed, so his words may have little effect on radicals who oppose the US or Israel.
Reform issue
It is very common for the Friday prayer in Arab societies to end with the Imam calling for the destruction of the "kuffar", the un-believers, to which the worshippers respond "Amen".
Such public display of hostility to other cultures was picked up by critics as an example of how mainstream Islamic preaching contributes, perhaps inadvertently, to the radicalisation of Muslim youths....
No kidding, really?
"Such public display of hostility to other cultures was picked up by critics as an example of how mainstream Islamic preaching contributes, perhaps inadvertently, to the radicalisation of Muslim youths...."
Ah! Here we see a likely motive for asking Muslims not to pray for the destruction of unbelievers: They might want to avoid as much scrutiny as possible by those who report the TRUTH about Islam.
Does this mean they really did want our destruction. Do you mean Muslims prayed for us to die. Then they would not have cars, TVs, cameras, planes, food, medicine, etc. Wow. You mean Muslims hate us so much and I thought allah created everyone. wow
Does this mean they really did want our destruction. Do you mean Muslims prayed for us to die. Then they would not have cars, TVs, cameras, planes, food, medicine, etc. Wow. You mean Muslims hate us so much and I thought allah created everyone. wow
Does this mean they really did want our destruction. Do you mean Muslims prayed for us to die. Then they would not have cars, TVs, cameras, planes, food, medicine, etc. Wow. You mean Muslims hate us so much and I thought allah created everyone. wow
Tilly -
follow this link
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=91E24709-E0B5-4A44-A073-04031461442F
to find an article by Andrew Bostom about the teaching of hate in Muslim schools.
Bostom mentions the research of Edward Lane, an Englishman who learnt Arabic and studied Muslim ways in Egypt in the early 19th century.
Lane said - “I am credibly informed that children in Egypt are often taught at school a regular set of curses to denounce upon the persons and property of Christians, Jews, and all other unbelievers in the religion of Mohammad.”
Lane translated from Arabic the text of one such curse-'prayer'. Here it is, as reproduced in another article by Bostom:
http://frontpagemag.com/articles/Read.aspx?GUID=C4BA519B-3644-4738-99B9-6B2BD900C894
“I seek refuge with God from Satan the accursed.
"In the name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful. O God, aid El-Islam, and exalt the word of truth, and the faith, by the preservation of thy servant and the son of thy servant, the Sultan of the two continents (Europe and Asia), and the Khakan (Emperor or monarch) of the two seas [the Mediterranean and Black Seas], the Sultan, son of the Sultan (Mahmood) Khan (the reigning Sultan when this prayer was composed).
O God, assist him, and assist his armies, and all the forces of the Muslims:
O Lord of the beings of the whole world.
O God, destroy the infidels and polytheists, thine enemies, the enemies of the religion.
O God, make their children orphans, and defile their abodes, and cause their feet to slip,
and give them and their families,
and their households and their women and their children and their relations by marriage and their brothers and their friends
and their possessions and their race and their wealth and their lands
as booty to the Muslims: O Lord of the beings of the whole world.” [E W Lane, 'An Account of the Manners and Customs of the Modern Egyptians' (first published 1836) p. 575 [Bostom is using the 1977 edition].
END QUOTE
Note: everywhere the word 'god' appears in that curse-'prayer', we non-Muslims should mentally substitute 'allah', so we know it's referring to the war-demon worshipped by the Muslims.
"It is very common for the Friday prayer in Arab societies to end with the Imam calling for the destruction of the "kuffar", the un-believers, to which the worshippers respond "Amen"."
Not just "in Arab societies" I suspect, but in nearly all Muslim societies, in nearly all mosques, whether in the Muslim world or in the West.
The difference between Christ and the Mohammedans:
Mosques are well known as fertile breeding grounds for violent Muslim activities...Mosques are also used as weapons depots, torture chambers, militant indoctrinations centers, military operations centers, subersive training centers, jails, and as hideouts for Muslims on the run from the law...and of course they do say their Muslim prayers using the Qur'an....
"But he added they were permissible if the interests of Muslims were harmed, so his words may have little effect on radicals who oppose the US or Israel."
That makes it all better!
-Abdullah Bhullah, the wacky mullah
At: http://staringattheview.blogspot.com/2008/06/muhammad-buddha.html I posted a comment about Shaykh Salman. He tries to find examples from the hadith and the life of Muhammad that support the "lighter side" of Muhammad, but unfortunately does not deal with the many examples in the hadith and sirah that deal with the dark side.
I'd be more inclined to believe that Sheik Salman knows all to well that we won't need to be killed until they have bled us dry first. Why should Dhimmis be killed as long as they keep inventing things and spending their wealth for the good of Islam? Sorry, but it will take a lot more clerics from all over the Muslim world exorting peace and good will for, like 50 years, before I even remotely start to believe them.
Sorry, but it will take a lot more clerics from all over the Muslim world exorting peace and good will for, like 50 years, before I even remotely start to believe them.
Right, and there will be a pink, six dollar American bill with a turbaned president on he face before that happens. Of course we could see a turbaned president. LOL.
Perhaps, though, Mr. al-Awda would consider where this practice of cursing non-Muslims comes from. Is it derived from the Qur'an and the sayings\actions of Muhammad? If so, how can a "moderate" like al-Awda counter the practice of Islamic grounds? Of course, that is assuming he is actually against the practice, and not just the bad PR in some of the Western media.
Somewhat off topic, but worth noting nonetheless: David Pryce-Jones' short obituary of J. B. Kelly on National Review Online is here: http://pryce-jones.nationalreview.com/.
Hypocracy, anyone? I mean, Muslims are the first to drop the race card (I have personally felt this one and believe me, I let go with both verbal barrels over that one) - how can this not be considered racism? Or bigotry, if we want to give it the correct term.
So, he says "Don't pray for the destruction of non-believers" and this is considered to be a reformist position?
Wow. Just - Wow. I am stunned.
So here is another thing I'll add to my list of "Questions for Muslims". Do you pray for the destruction of non believers?
Ole - thank you for that link - the David Pryce-Jones obit for J B Kelly, formidable New Zealand scholar and historian.
New readers to this site, who have joined us since August 2008, and who may be new to the topic of Islam, and who would like to know more about Arab Muslims, and oil, and the folly of the UK and of the USA
are hereby advised to click on the following link
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/021722.php
to read a full transcription, by jihadwatch poster 'heroyalwhyness', of the text of J B Kelly's landmark article 'Of Valuable Oil and Worthless Policies'. (Then scroll down and read Hugh's comment).
Print it off, if you find it too difficult to read on-screen.
Read it at your leisure. Re-read it, as many times as necessary, until you have understood it.
dda: Have you read Pryce-Jones' "The Closed Circle"? An excellent book about Arabs.
"Have you read Pryce-Jones' "The Closed Circle"? An excellent book about Arabs."
Arabs? Who cares about "Arabs"? The problem is Muslims and their Islam. Does Pryce-Jones even go into the Islam of these "Arabs"? Somehow, I doubt it.
Hesperado
you probably should read 'Closed Circle'. Because Islam is, viewed from a certain POV, Arabism: the Arab National, or imperial, Religion.
Pryce-Jones wrote the foreword to one of Spencer's early books - Islam Unveiled. I doubt that he's ignorant of Islam.