When will some Islamic apologist send these misunderstanders of Islam the decoder ring that magically renders Qur'an 5:38's call for amputation as the penalty for theft as a call for group therapy and a visit from Dr. Phil? "Somali Islamists chop off hands of Mogadishu 'thieves'," from Agence France-Presse, September 9:
MOGADISHU -- Somali Islamists publicly chopped off the right hands of two men in Mogadishu on Wednesday, a sign the hardline Shebab militia is imposing Sharia law in areas of the capital under its control.
"The Sharia court found the two men guilty of breaking into houses and stealing property. They admitted to the charges against them," said Sheikh Abdibasit Mohamed, an Islamic court judge in the north of Mogadishu.
Again, that's Qur'an 5:38: "As to the thief, male or female, cut off his or her hands: a punishment by way of example, from Allah, for their crime: and Allah is Exalted in power."
"Therefore each one of them gets his right hand amputated according to the Islamic Sharia."
The two men in their late 20s screamed loudly as the punishment was administered by knife, and were taken to hospital for treatment.
The Shebab fighters barred journalists from taking pictures.
A teenager was also publicly punished, receiving 100 lashes over allegations that he raped a young girl.
The extremist group has imposed strict Sharia in areas of the country that have fallen under its control in months of battles with government forces and African Union peacekeepers.
In June, four people had their hands and feet amputated as a punishment of robbery, but Wednesday's public amputations were a sign of the extremists' growing influence in Mogadishu itself, with diminishing areas of the capital under government control.
"This is an Islamic law and we are all equal before the justice. Anyone found guilty of a crime will face the punishment under the Islamic sharia," said Sheikh Ali Husein, a senior Shebab official in Mogadishu.
Nice...I am sure apologists for Islam must be having a field day with this one. Well, like many of Islam's apologist, they have selective amnesia, hearing, or seeing. How sad! Millions of humans are suffering under Islam and have suffered since its inception in that harsh desert of Saudi Arabia.
"A teenager was also publicly punished, receiving 100 lashes over allegations that he raped a young girl."
If there weren't 4 male witnesses, and the girl wasn't punished or stigmatized, this is actually pretty liberal for Islamic societies. Maybe liberal to the point of being unislamic. Those who meted out this punishment should be tried as apostates.
and to think, American apologists for Islam consider this chopping, that beating, to be a premier form of discipline. Allah is cruel, which is something they can't admit, because their tongues have been cut out by their own hand of silence.
"The extremist group has imposed strict Sharia..."
As opposed to Sharia lite? Sharia is sharia and has no place in any civilized society, just as Islam has not place in any civilized society.
"This is an Islamic law and we are all equal before the justice. Anyone found guilty of a crime will face the punishment under the Islamic sharia," said Sheikh Ali Husein, a senior Shebab official in Mogadishu...................Anyone who believes that schlock is an infantile idiot. I don't have to be there to know that the leaders and clerics live above their own laws just like mo' did. Heck mo' just made things up as he went along, so in effect they are following the example of that perfect man(spit)
How hateful to point out 5:38 without putting it in context to show how enlightened Islam and Sharia are.
Abdullah -- time's a wastin'!
It's time to take your Softer-Side-of-Islam Show on the road to Somalia, so that you can personally confront and straighten out these poor misguided Muslim brethren. Remember, each day that passes where you waste your efforts on JW trying to straighten us out, means that you could possibly help some poor guy keep his hand; if not, then his blood is on your hand (no pun intended).
...a combination of sarc & seriousness, you decide.
In June, four people had their hands and feet amputated as a punishment of robbery, but Wednesday's public amputations were a sign of the extremists' growing influence in Mogadishu itself, with diminishing areas of the capital under government control.
...............
Anyone reading this would assume that the "government" of Somalia--who have positioned themselves against the "extremist" Shebab, and are supported by Ethiopia and the West, would never do anything so barbaric as to hold public amputations.
Unfortunately, this is incorrect. The "government" of Somalia, such as it is, holding only a small section of Mogadishu, is made up of elements from the "Islamic Courts Union"--every bit as fervent believers in Shari'ah as the Shebab.
This, from the BBC, in 2006:
"Profile: Somalia's Islamic Courts"
"Thieves had their limbs amputated and murderers were executed."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/5051588.stm
Despite the BBC' article's disturbing tone--which is largely respectful of Shari'ah as representing 'rule of law', it is not difficult to see what was was going on in Somalia under the "Islamic Courts Union".
This was barely *three years ago*--and yet, most Westerners are happy to consider the Somali "government" to be some sort of democratic entity, standing against "extremists"--rather than what it is, no more than a power struggle between rival Islamists.
The West's short attention span is truly disturbing, as is the idea--seldom borne out--that in every conflict one side must represent "the good guys".
The BBC article also notes that "during the years of warfare and anarchy, many Somalis have increasingly turned to their faith for some sort of stability"--never realizing that it has been Islam that has brought "warfare and anarchy" to the Horn of Africa in the first place.
champ,
Your sour words and vile opinion fall far short of the mark, dearie.
We built Al Hyatt hospital in Somalia so that women could get prenatal care, as well as serving the community there for their other needs.
We are also working to drill more wells in both North Somalia with a Christian NGO, and in the South Somalia with a Muslim NGO.
And in respect to the people who are driven to steal by poverty and the failings of their local government to alleviate the situation?
There is a precedent in Islamic Law that the authority be the one charged with fixing the problem of the poverty and thus ending the need for theft and for them to alleviate the starvation that drove them to steal, or it should be HIS hand that is cut off for having, through his failures, driven the populace into the need to steal in order to feed themselves and their families.
Peace
Abdullah
Dear Tilly,
For your own benefit, please see a therapist.
Peace
Abdullah
abdullah you are the insane one serving allah the devil aND HE BRAGGED ABOUT IT SURA 3:54.
Abie Mikey -
So it's okay to cut the hands off thieves?
Oh, that's right - you're going to say that it's not in the Qur'an, weren't you?
But it is Mikey - I've read it myself.
I know, I know - I have a bad translation and in Arabic it means "have a nice day!"
Dear Tilly,
3:54 Excellent reference....read it all.
Peace
Abdullah
You see Champ, Abby still believes that chopping peoples hands off is the correct punishment for theives, though in this case he wants to use it against the authorities who failed to solve the poverty problem to begin with. So there's no one for him to personally confront and straighten out, except us "bigots" and "phobics" who don't realize that chopping off people's hands for theft is a good thing.
Cut 'em some slack...everyone does this in the 7th century.
AM -- the "We" that you're referring to in no way personally includes YOU, so you're missing the point, 'nucklehead. I am suggesting that YOU, the one-and-only AbdullahMikail, put your ass on a plane, so that YOU can personally confront these vile "misunderstanders" of Islam yourself. Get it? ...You!
Stop wasting your time and ours on JW by attacking those presenting this evil -- not when you should be attacking those performing these vile and evil acts in the first place; and in the name of God, no less. Your current approach of attacking JW is backwards and ineffective, at best.
Wonder if AM would support amputation as a penalty for theft in America, Sharia being so wonderful, enlightened and all that. Well, the punishment should fit the crime and amputation for theft strikes this American as barbaric. Jail time, yes (including hard labor in some instances). Fines, yes. Community service, yes. Amputation, definitely not. Interesting how the Eighth Amendment to the US Constitution prohibiting "cruel and unusual punishments" is way ahead of Sharia on this. Of course, Common Law, the basis for all American jurisdictions except Louisiana (where Roman law, another enlightened legal system, prevails) far outpaces in wisdom, fairness, enlightenment and overall justice the punitive, draconian and at times even stupid (e.g., a woman having to produce four male witnesses to substantiate a rape charge) Islamic legal system.
Yes, there was a time when Common Law had stupidities and monstrosities in it, noted so very well in literary form by Charles Dickens in several of his novels, most especially in Bleak House, but Common Law got rid of almost all of these and thus demonstrated a flexibility and evolutionary capacity we do not see with Sharia, protestations by Muslims to the contrary notwithstanding. Anyone doubting this need only look around the world and view the continuing barbarism of Sharia doctrines (like amputation) which are employed on a daily basis. Nope, there's no real flexibility in Sharia, just as there is no real flexibility in all of Islam. In fact, this very brittle nature of the entire Islamic construct is one of the reasons why Islam is headed for oblivion.
Oh yes, and just for the record, I don't believe the death penalty for certain heinous offenses is barbaric and neither does the Supreme Court of the United States. It does not contravene the Eighth Amendment but amputation does and I fully agree with this distinction (in fact I think it immoral not to have the death penalty). After all, the law is often about drawing lines, drawing limits (e.g., at what age should one become chargeable as an adult?) and I think present American Constitutional law has it right on the death penalty and amputation, which is really mutilation. Meanwhile, though, in one Islamic nation after another, the deficient and barbaric legal system of Sharia is implemented day after day and that's a damn shame. But then so is all of Islam.
champ,
If someone is unable to follow the rules of physisc, or math, and arrive at the correct answer given any one of dozens of problems to solve...do we scream and yell and say that math and physics is evil and wrong?
No.
And we as well can not say that math and physics are to blame for people who fail to understand them designing systems that crash or bridges that collapse... if they do not understand the rules of application it is their short coming, not physics or math.
Believing a set of rules is inherently evil is as stupid as saying math is evil because people fail to properly apply the rules and get the answer right.
For your information, I understand Islam and I apply it to myself and see affect even in Somalia, however I don't have to be on the ground there to see it accomplished...
As far as attacking JW? Pushaw...pointing out the hypocrisy of it's author ( yeah he doesn't demonize all Muslims, does he? Right...) and pointing out his commercially vested interest in what he spews here is no attack...it's just calling it like I see it...which of course is Robert's retort, only, one must ask,
What is real and what is for sale?
I am real, and Robert is for sale.
What has he ever done for anyone other than fill his own bank account?
Peace
Abdullah
LOL...I just love islamic logic.
I had to re-read that several times, AM...and it's hurting my head to try and follow your thinking. So, essentially, sharia law is right but the people that implement the laws are wrong and we shouldn't blame sharia? LOL, too funny...keep 'em coming.
Wellington,
"Louisiana (where Roman law, another enlightened legal system, prevails)"
It is Napoleonic code you were thinking of when you wrote this.
Your continued clamouring about the imminent demise of Islam is comical.
: )
Peace
Abdullah
Just because a person makes a living pursuing something important to him, he's a sell-out? You fail to take into account two realities there. One is the amount of personal hardship, scorn, and everyday inconvenience Robert takes on for something he believes in.
I maintain a day job in addition to volunteering my time for Jihad Watch, and on my busiest day, Robert is still busier than me. The man is not living la dolce vita, blogging poolside while lighting cigars with $100 bills.
And that brings me to my next point. If any of us were in it for the money, we'd be better off busking in the subways playing folk duets. If any of us were to take up a political cause for personal gain, there's far more money in aligning oneself with one of the two major parties, and with mainstream political thought (see, for example, Dinesh D'Souza, or any Fox News commentator).
So, sorry. None of us are for sale. Contrary to what you may think, it is possible to arrive at a good-faith conclusion (no pun intended) that there is something seriously wrong with Islamic teachings on violence, women, unbelievers, and equal rights, and it needs to be brought to light.
AM, you should plan a trip to Washington DC (or maybe you already are) for the "pray in" or whatever it is. Supposed to be 50,000 muslims joining up for prayers all day in front of the Capitol Building. I'm sure you could find SOME muslim there that would benefit from your take on Islam. Then you wouldn't be wasting your breath (typing) on us.
No one here is going to cut you any slack, we are firm in our beliefs also.
If you do go, take a big sign so we can spot you in the crowd. OH wait...you are a white convert, you may not need a sign.
Marisol,
Can you say "NY Times Bestseller?"
Do you remember the George Washington "Brag Icon" Robert used to post in the lower left hand corner of his blogg that stated "My blogg is worth 2,300,000 ** dollars what's yours worth?"
( ** assumed, the number was 2 million plus, just don't remember the exact number...)
I also note how quickly it disappeared when I pointed it out.
Marisol, I respect you for volunteering to do work you believe in, despite the vile medium, smearing Islam, smearing all Muslims, because of the minority of extremists among us...yes, I appreciate your sincere efforts even though I disagree with your work.
Robert on the other hand is a sell out. Period.
It doesn't matter how noble he views himself...what he does is dreadful, the negative projections he makes, the hateful smearing he does...many are aware of what he truly repsresents...although not many of "them" ever come here.
Read one post from the bottom feeder 'father" Botoros and you will see how low this work has sunk.
Peace
Abdullah
The Napoleonic Code, AM, was based on Roman Law and was really just a revision of it, as was the law of southern France before Napoleon (northern France during the Ancien Regime was based on Frankish Law). I always like going to the source of things, you know, like the Koran or Sira.
As for predicting Islam's imminent demise, I have done no such thing. On several previous posts of mine I have referred to the new Hundred Years War we're in with Islam. It will take some time to make Islam a marginal or even non-existent religion and much unnecessary tragedy will ensue in the effort to eradicate from mankind yet another totalitarian ideology, this time disguised in religious form. But it will happen. No way a system of thought so freedom crushing and intolerant as Islam will last forever. Count on it.
Wonderfully stated, Marisol. With you completely here, as I'm sure many, many fellow JW posters are.
OT BREAKINGNEWS
Plane hijacked from Cancun to Mexico city...watch on CNN.
The little George Washington dealie was a statement of the blog's reach in terms of advertising potential, calculated according to our readership and site traffic. Ain't nobody around here with $2 million dollars.
Wellington,
I count you as a friend for the laugh you just gave me with this one:
“It will take some time to make Islam a marginal or even non-existent religion..”
In Texas alone between 1992 and 2005 the growth rate of Islam from all sources wais 247% from approximately 150,000 IN 1992 to 450,000 in thirteen years. Do the math…population growth rate over all, including Muslims, was only .9 % over the same time period.
“…and much unnecessary tragedy will ensue in the effort to eradicate from mankind yet another totalitarian ideology, this time disguised in religious form.”
Not going to happen. We have the lessons of the past and we are looking forward…our demographic will expand and strengthen and flourish because there are vastly more Muslims like me than the cartoony image you revel in here at JW.
“But it will happen. No way a system of thought so freedom crushing and intolerant as Islam will last forever. Count on it.”
In just the last thirteen years we have developed five Islamic Schools, established and expanded five large community centers, consolidated and purchased a housing development for Muslims, and whomever else can afford to live in it…all just in North Texas.
You have no idea how funny it is to read what you write. We are growing rapidly and we are established firmly and we are American believers, the healthiest wealthiest and most generous per capita Muslim population in the world….and you think otherwise?
: )
Thanks, Wellington, you actually made my day.
Peace
Abdullah
Islam will implode AM. Too many of you are "misunderstanders"
Guess you get a lot of converts from prison? nice...
gymgal,
"Islam will implode AM. Too many of you are "misunderstanders"
That is cute. : )
Too many = how many?
It is a negligible quantity when compared to the whole...one must use scientific notation when comparing the violent ectremists against the whole Muslim population, and that % is even smaller when you isolate the US and consider this Muslim demography only.
Growing not going...
: )
Peace
Abdullah
Communism expanded before it fell, AM. So did Nazism. I agree that with Islam we have a more formidable opponent to freedom and tolerance than either Marxism or fascism because it hides behind its religious veil and actually is not as rotten as these other two since it borrowed so much from decent religions like Judaism, Christianity and Zoroastrianism (and something which is, say, 60% rotten is actually more menacing long term than something which is 95% putrid). But give things time. Oh, I suppose it is lost on you that the fact that the American Muslim population is, in your words, so well off has little or nothing to do with Islam and most everything to do with America. Hey, what's that about he who laughs last, laughs best?
heh AM, you are totally deluded. lol.
AM: "What has he ever done for anyone other than fill his own bank account?"
Buying ANY book from ANY author is something a person does out of their own volition. Whether or not someone chooses to either write a book, or buy a book, is none of your business, so get a life.
What has Robert done? ...opened my eyes to the Truth About Muhammad & Islam, that's what.
But to your credit, AM, so have you! ...you have also served to open my eyes to the ugly truth about Islam and those who defend it.
You will never succeed at undermining Robert or JW, but you have succeeded at making yourself look very foolish and void of any reasonable logic.
Wellington,
You make a pathetic false correlation:
“Communism expanded before it fell, AM. So did Nazism.”
Both of which were human political innovations, period. Whatever humans derive will be destroyed sooner or later.
What God establishes will last forever.
Your “He copied it from others…” argument is defeated before you finish speaking it. Countless others took that weak position before, after you, many more will as well.
“… Oh, I suppose it is lost on you that the fact that the American Muslim population is, in your words, so well off has little or nothing to do with Islam and most everything to do with America.”
God is the source of all things.
Business is as business does…India is rising, China is rising, France is rising, America is still on top…if one wants to sell one goes to the market…success in life in buying and selling has nothing to do with Islam, but true success does.
The drive for education is inherent in the religion a duty on all Muslims. Who earns the most? It is pretty heavily weighted to those with the most knowledge.
“Hey, what's that about he who laughs last, laughs best?”
There is one who was promised that they would laugh last regardless of whatever evil the other one commits against them in life.
Let’s both wait and see who it is, shall we?
Peace
Abdullah
I am real, and Robert is for sale.
What has he ever done for anyone other than fill his own bank account?
Peace
Abdullah
Hello Ab DULL ah.
Well he's a real man who won't be intimidated out of standing up for the rights of women & children for one.
Unlike Mohammed.
What did Mohammed ever do other than steal, kill,
rape & destroy?
God is the source of all things, AM? OK, prove that statement.
Wellington,
Sure, as soon as you can disprove it.
The evidence all around you if you look...or are you one who believes in that Darwinian nonsense, that humanity evolved from gloop?
: )
Peace
Abdullah
Abdullah says...
What God establishes will last forever.
It is a shame for you that Allah is not God but an imposter.
You NEED to start questioning him.
You can escape islam. You can be free!
Dear Mr. AbdullahMikail,
I see you avoided to answer my simple questions in
another thread though you made an appearance on
it some time later. Could you please explain your
avoidance of answering simple questions?
Still looking for a positive dialog.
K.M.
karelmartel,
I don't recall a simple question you asked.
But, sure, ask away again...positive dialogue in this venue is a rare commodity...I will answer with truth to everything you ask.
Be cognizant of your preconceived notions, though, my answers will most often never fit into them...that is deemed by many here as "lying" or "tap dancing."
(P.S. If you toe the party line and tell them what they want ot hear, they will accept you no matter how insane your opinion is...)
Peace
Abdullah
Sure, as soon as you can disprove it.
The evidence all around you if you look...or are you one who believes in that Darwinian nonsense, that humanity evolved from gloop?
AM, your delusion knows no bounds. Based on your errant logic anything we say exists then exists.
You are familiar with Russell's Celestial Teapot? The Invisible Pink Unicorn theory? There has never been, nor will there ever be evidence of god. None. You are making the statement, you supply the proof.
As for your embarrassing giddiness in response to how fast islam is spreading.... Riiiiiight.....
You're one tiny part of Texas, other parts of the country are undergoing many other 'wonderful' expansions of varying sorts. The one constant is that the World is becoming more secular. I posted the facts to back that up before so I won't bore JW readers again. Suffice to say you're experiencing the slow expansion before the rapid contraction and end of your cult. Enjoy it while you can.
Why does this guy keep attacking Father Boutros? Nothing Boutros has ever said was ever proven to be false by Muslims. He reads directly from Muslim biographies of Muhammed to show what a vile man he was. Too bad if you don't like it.
What does it say of Muhammed's early disciples that they were so impresed by these details of Muhammed's life to record them for posterity? Muhammed "sucked" his daughter's tongue, enjoyed having other men kiss his bare chest, raped a retarded woman, and drank menstrual fluid. Disgusting! Is it any surprise that his follower's today would be so vile as to go to the proposed site of a Hindu temple kicking and spitting on a severed cow's head?
"Still looking for a positive dialog."
...you're better off watching reruns of the Twilight Zone. Less painful. More informative.
Champ,
That was funny! And spot on!
Question_Everything!
So you believe in Darwinian evolution?
Peace
Abdullah
Dear Mr. AbdullahMikail,
I'm amazed at your attitude about the so-called preconceived notions you presume I have.
I progress in a scientific way, so such notions
are ruled out in advance, the only motive to elaborate on a subject is curiosity and a strong sence in scientific explorations.
The questions I was referring to are to be found here:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/027497.php#c628924
Thanks in advance
karelmartel,
I question the validity of the incident as portryed...there is something more to it that what is on the surface.
Yes, it occurred in a war zone...no it's not BS...but there are not many facts surrounding the incident as reported though...the way it is depicted they were just school kids walking to school and they were attacked for nothing other than being Shiite... that is the media message they want portrayed.
From just the information noted it is a horrendous incident and not condoned in Islam...they seem to have been just kids going to school. Nothing wrong with that, as long as they were just school kids going to school.
Do you know what the rules of engagement were in Faluja, Iraq?
Peace
Abdullah
Hey, Boneshack! ...how are you? :)
Abdullah Mikhail does a disservice to decent Muslims.
His continual irrationally, inability to form a coherent argument, his refusal to accept criticism, his lack of compassion for the victims of his co-religionists, his gratuitous attacks on Robert Spencer, and his anti-Semitism, have all lead me to regard him as nothing more than an ideologue.
I noticed during the ALA "kerfuffle", Robert Spencer was accussed of censorship, and AM did not come forth, and say that despite doing his level best to get banned, including threatening to sabotage the JihadWatch, AM is allowed to behave here like the complete ass that he is.
Robert Spencer has a very strong appreciation of the freedom of speech, but you would never know that reading AM's posts.
AM lies, he threatens people, gives Muslims a bad name, and is in general worthless.
He is an agent of CAIR, and an obvious one.
God can be neither proven nor disproven, AM. God can only be believed in. If one could prove the existence of God, one would not need faith. Surely, even you can see this. Pointing to certain aspects of existence which are wonderful, such as the birth of a child or a beautiful sunset (or a beautiful woman) establishes nothing. One could also point to cancer, hurricanes, horrible birth defects and the like. All this constitutes no proof that there is a God, nor does it disprove there is a deity.
Now, I have to consider that God may exist and and that He might not. I honestly don't know. I'm inclined to think God is a legend but I am no atheist, one who denies God's existence. Rather, I am an agnostic, one who does not know and since faith is not a factor in my assessing the universe I am therefore not religious. God for me is an interesting philosophical problem, not a religious matter. In this, I am quite conscious that I am in the miniority among my fellow human beings.
As for evolution, it's a fact, AM. The evidence for evolution is so overwhelming that you might as well say the earth is flat as to deny that life evolved over millions (actually billions if one goes back to single-celled organisms) of years. Beginning with the Cambrian Period of the Paleozoic Era, multi-cellular life began to proliferate. This was about 600 million years ago. The earlist mammals appeared at the end of the Mesozoic Era and multiplied rapidly as the earth moved into the Cenozoic Era. The first ape-like creatures appeared about 25 million years ago in the early Miocene Epoch. The first Hominids made their appearance an astonishing 6-7 million years ago, even before later Hominids like the Austalopithecines. As for the Homo genus, the fossilized record would put the earliest representative (Homo habilis) at about two and a quarter million years ago. Homo sapiens go back only half a million years, if that, more like 400,000 years ago. All this and much, much more is known because of radioactive dating, stratigraphy, forensic anthropology and related disciplines. I'm fairly acquainted with all this because I began as an anthropology major and to this day retain an interest in it, only next to history.
While I am personally a skeptic, I see no reason why, say, the Christian view of the universe could not be correct and evolution is the way God put things into motion (if so, exactly when the human soul was created is an interesting theological matter). Science and religion need not be at odds with one another. I will close, however, by saying that if Islam is the true religion, then this is a very creepy universe and God is an Orwellian tryant, irrespective of evolutionary science.
livingengine,
Pride yourself on being wrong? I am in no way affiliated with CAIR. CAIR is a civil rights organization and they doing very good work for citizens of the US. I am sure past and present members have been invovled in issues, some legal, some serious, some blown out of proportion...that's public life. Take the good with the bad if you are in the lime light.
CAIR DFW has in the past made public service announcements about work I was involved in and they named me as a contact in my region in respect to the work I do with Islamic Relief and Masjid Al Islam.
I still work in disaster relief and providing for the homeless and the poor and they may even still mention me by name in association with it...I don't know, I don't pay attention to that sort of stuff.
By the way, I know a lot of Muslims all over the US and world, I am sure there are links between many of them and myself...and there are many more who know me than I do them, so there... we're all connected.
I never threatened JW with anything...stupid comment...I mentioned to RS that there were some legal issues he was not aware of in association with JW...I thought that paperwork would move off that govt. desk faster than it has...still sitting there at the red light, though. I was just giving him a coy warning of what may still be coming for him down the road. I would hate to foot that bill for what they might send him...
I don't lie...I don't threaten people... and there are far more people with an honest opinion of who I am and what I do than a person hiding behind a silly screen name...
You done with your little conspiracy trip?
I hope so, because your faulty assumption has made you look "obviously" stupid.
Peace
Abdullah
"If any of us were to take up a political cause for personal gain, there's far more money in aligning oneself with one of the two major parties..."
Not to mention there's also more money to be made in the pro-Islam racket, a far more popular one out there, with many more opportunities for publishing books, getting involved in movie or TV deals, getting paid for speaking engagements, getting government grants, etc. -- than the path Spencer has chosen. The West still largely is stuck on the "Islam is peace" and "most Muslims are nice guys" paradigm, and because they subliminally and self-consciously feel that paradigm slipping under the sheer weight of all the outrageous behaviors, written and verbal expressions, and atrocities Muslims are committing around the world, various mainstream forces throughout the West have been turning pro-Islam Apologetics into a mass-market business -- i.e., increasing the pro-Islam message out of an underlying anxiety to redouble the PC MC propaganda. If Spencer wants to make lots of dough pursuing the path he's chosen, he'll have to wait about 50 more years before the tide turns in his (our) favor.
Dear Mr. AbdullahMikai,
your quote "that is the media message they want portrayed."
Please to elaborate as to "they" really means, the news is reported by the BBC as being originating for AFP. Both are really not known for being islamophobe, on the contrary (lookup the Muhammad al-Durrah cas).
The reference to "warzone" is clearly a refernce to the age old enemity between Shiites and Sunnites, (the documentation about this is ample on the internet). So, there is no doubt that Islam is involved in these killings, and they're not about oil, colonialism, white supremacy or crusades.
What really wonders me is how it is possible that hundreds of thousands of people come down on the streets for a few pixels on a sheet of paper but stay completely mute when it comes to killing boys of less than 16 yrs of age as if this fact were not a mayor insult to the religion of Islam?
I'd like to be enlightnend on this subject.
K.M.
karelmartel,
AM does not answer questions. He dances around questions and studiously avoids answering them. I have had sufficient experience of that personally.
Wellington,
In respect to your paragraph one: True, there is only belief, yet it is reinforced by revelation. If a message is sent with portents and many of those come true, some have yet to pass, but shouldn’t we consider then that the message must be true?
Is it not science when we predict an outcome, do an experiment, measure the results, and our hypothesis is either confirmed or denied? If it is confirmed then it becomes the discovery of truth.
Glad you brought up Birth of a child…the microscopic stages of birth are detailed in the Quran right down to describing the trimester and the stages of development in the human embryo…all microscopic, mind you…cannot see them with the naked eye.
“Now, I have to consider that God may exist and and that He might not.”
That is not an altogether bad place to be. Neutrality is a good place to start from.
“The evidence for evolution is so overwhelming…”
I did not say evolution, I said Darwinian evolution…evolution within a species occurs, no doubt, but amoeba do not become fish and those do not become mammals and those do not become primates and those do not become man…that is what Darwin said.
The fossil record alone destroys Darwinian evolution…there are absolutely no transitional fossils…there is a fluke or two a dinosaur who may have had feathers…but there is nothing leading to or from those, period. Darwin knew this. We know this. We have a huge catalogue of fossils many up to 500 million years old unchanged when compared to their modern descendants.
In respect to defeating the idea of Darwinian evolution, did you and I ever discuss the lime Green 1972 VW Bug? I think we may have, but for the benefit of the crowd, let’s cover it again.
Imagine you and I can live forever from here on, and that is the only change in reality.
I invite you to sit in a green field with me.
Now imagine a lime Green 1972 VW Bug,
Imagine all the thousands of years the knowledge had to progress in order for men to discover writing,
Now imagine developing that writing into the sciences,
Now imagine developing those sciences into industry,
Now imagine developing those industries to produce,
Now imagine developing multiple industries to produce different products,
Now imagine more science to develop chemistry,
Now imagine more industry to develop those chemicals, those products, those metals, those sciences,
Now imagine all the thousands upon thousands upon thousands of man hours spent and the time of an age to develop all of that into a production line,
And produce one Lime Green 1972 VW Bug.
Remember, you and I in this philosophical construct live forever as we sit in this green field.
As you and I watch this field for a million years…no, let’s say a billion, we did say forever, will that Lime Green 1972 VW Bug ever just pop up from the grass in that field by itself with no intervention from any human being ever?
Now let’s take open the aperture up another notch….shall we…
The Nuclear reactor is vastly more energy efficient than an automobile, and we only get 35% efficiency out of the reactor…we lose that much energy producing just 35% efficiency, how much more inefficient is the Lime Green 1972 VW Bug?
Now let us imagine that it is a self repairing *** Lime Green 1972 VW Bug…one that takes material from its environment on its own volition to add to its system to repair and fuel itself…now let’s say it is a 100% fuel efficient Lime Green 1972 VW Bug…one that also self replicates and defends itself instinctively.
NOW ASK YOURSELF:
Will that very special *** Lime Green 1972 VW Bug ever just pop up in that field as you and I watch it for a billion years? Will it ever just materialize having all that complex pieces and parts all working together as described above?
Now imagine an amoeba is vastly more complex an engineering model than a Lime Green 1972 VW Bug , let’s talk about the odds of a single celled organism ever appearing in the primordial ocean under any set of circumstances as you and I watch for a billion, no, a trillion years.
Do you really think it would just happen on it’s own by chance and then all life evolved from there?
By the odds, that can never have occurred, and absolutely improbable and is statistically impossible, not to mention what evolutionists think followed, that that improbably impossible chance would replicate infinitum until all life arose from one amoeba.
If that’s the case of what you really believe, you have just proven to me you are without doubt a maniac…insane beyond all reason…that is if you believe evolution from a single cell into man.
The only other sane realization is that there had to be Someone else engineering creation…even Einstein admitted as much.
Peace
Abdullah Mikail
Hesperado,
Mind Arthur Schopenhauer:
Die Kunst, Recht zu behalten Kunstgriff 28
Though the example is a bit inappropriate in this case.
And we care about thieves getting their hands cut off... why? I don't care about thieves getting their hands cut off - unless they were stealing to feed themselves or their kids. Why would you, or anyone else, care if a thief loses a hand?
Imagery? Lime Green? Whoa, let the brainwashing begin! ...and please pass the Tums.
What is it with Muslims and their preoccupation with the color Green? O, that's right, Mohammad had-a-thing-4-green. Hmm. Next thing out of your mouth (or fingers) will be that Mohammad was a great guy and a wonderful....wait!
Mohammad wasn't a great guy, but a liar, a thief & a murderer -- and that's the short list. Mohammad's evil life presents a real problem for Muslims, doesn't he, AM? What hypnotic phrases do you intend to use NOW so that others might not notice the White Elephant in the room?
Scoreboard--
It's a question of values. Cruel and unusual punishment is not how we operate in the West, and this story is just one example of how Sharia law is at variance with -- and centuries behind -- Western values. That's why it is unfit to function as a parallel (or heaven forbid, replacement) system of "justice" in our societies, despite the apologists' claims of how advanced it is.
karelmartel,
I found this relevant passage from Schopenhauer:
The Extension. - This consists in carrying your opponent's proposition beyond its natural limits; in giving it as general a signification and as wide a sense as possible, so as to exaggerate it; and, on the other hand, in giving your own proposition as restricted a sense and as narrow limits as you can, because the more general a statement becomes, the more numerous are the objections to which it is open. The defence consists in an accurate statement of the point or essential question at issue.
Example 1. - I asserted that the English were supreme in drama. My opponent attempted to give an instance to the contrary, and replied that it was a well-known fact that in music, and consequently in opera, they could do nothing at all. I repelled the attack by reminding him that music was not included in dramatic art, which covered tragedy and comedy alone. This he knew very well. What he had done was to try to generalise my proposition, so that it would apply to all theatrical representations, and, consequently, to opera and then to music, in order to make certain of defeating me. Contrarily, we may save our proposition by reducing it within narrower limits than we had first intended, if our way of expressing it favours this expedient.
AM, however, perversely (and, it must be assumed, cleverly) resists any attempts at narrowing the proper limits of the point in a debate. Any chance to obfuscate and dilate beyond the bounds, or tangential to the bounds, of the specific point you are seeking, he exploits. When I tried to narrow my point down to a laser-like precision, AM then moved to more scurrilous tactics: clearly answering off-point to my specific point; waiting a long time to reply; saying he forgot what I said; blowing distracting smoke about how I was wrongheaded in my approach rather than simply answering my question; and so forth. AM is not a rational human being: he is a child, an animal, a fanatic, a robot -- all rolled into one: i.e., a good Muslim.
Abdullah said....
In respect to your paragraph one: True, there is only belief, yet it is reinforced by revelation. If a message is sent with portents and many of those come true, some have yet to pass, but shouldn’t we consider then that the message must be true?
But Islam is based on the claims of ONE man who
rather conviently asks you to believe that his
"revalations" supercede all prophets who went before him. While at the same time claiming that there will be no more prophecy after him.
This alone should make you suspicious.
Prophets are not called to be dictators.
In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established’ (2Corinthians 13:1).
Mohammed's sayings contradict the prophets who came before him.
Mal.3:6 " I the Lord do not change.
Yet Allah changed his mind every five minutes when "revealing" things to Mohammed.
The Hebrew Tanakh & The Christian Gospels were written hundreds of years before Mohammed lived.
Any true God would have the ability to prevent his words from being changed.
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. Mathew 24:35
The Allah of the Koran is NOT the same God as the Lord of the Torah/Tanakh
He is an imposter. Question him.
My apologies to the athiests or adherents to other religions for going on about this.
You probably find it boring but it irks me when Muslims claim that they have a messenger from the same God as the Jews & Christians.
Do you really want peace Abdullah?
Leave Islam and live!
I suspect that "scoreboard" is a Mohammedan troll, because he left a stinky dog pile at the bottom of this thread:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/027467.php#respond
AM: So you believe in Darwinian evolution?
Give me a better, more substantiated theory that is currently available, if you have one?
There isn't one and the simple reason for that is Darwin's Theory is solid.
My belief in Darwin's Theory is the same as my belief in Newton's Universal Law of Gravity or Einsteins's Theory of General Relativity.
Again I ask, where is the evidence supporting the existence of a deity?
Marisol, I'd like to thank you for being the very first person on this site to give me a reasonable response. I'm guessing it wasn't such a hard thing to do. Thanks.
K.M.
Like I said, you projected a preconceived notion
...it is an active war zone because the Govt of both
Pakistan and the US have made it as such...no other
reason as nefareous as you imply. it is what it is.
I answered you honestly, now your turn.
What were the US military forces rules of engagement in Faluja, Iraq?
You asked for positive dialogue, and I gave it to you.
Am answer would be appreciated, if you don't honestly know I can accept that and I will tell you the answer.
Peace
Abdullah
K.M.
Like I said, you projected a preconceived notion
...it is an active war zone because the Govt of both
Pakistan and the US have made it as such...no other
reason as nefareous as you imply. it is what it is.
I answered you honestly, now your turn.
What were the US military forces rules of engagement in Faluja, Iraq?
You asked for positive dialogue, and I gave it to you.
Am answer would be appreciated, if you don't honestly know I can accept that and I will tell you the answer.
Peace
Abdullah
Hey Hesperado,
You hit the nail on the head regarding AM.
Hesperado: AM is not a rational human being: he is a child, an animal, a fanatic, a robot -- all rolled into one: i.e., a good Muslim.
However, if I may, I can edit that for accuracy and efficacy: "AM is not a rational human being: he is a moslem".
You're welcome.
Question_Everything!
That's a good simplification: gets to the essence.
AM, you use traditional arguments for the existence of God (as examples, the First Cause Argument and the Teleological Argument). But none of these are conclusive, as Immanuel Kant demonstrated by pointing out that existence is not necessarily a category of an idea (ponder that one for a while because it's brilliant).
As for no transitional fossils, you are obviously ignorant in this regard. Just look at the many transitions alone between the at least six species of Australopithecines. Reconsider because you are simply wrong here.
Your VW analogy also misses the point because you assume nothing else is going on as we sit in the field for eons. But alomost infinite amounts of subtle changes are going on in order to adapt to nature's demands (which I would contend are amoral). This is a tired argument that has no relevance in the final analysis.
Look, God may exist. Even Islam may be the true religion (sane humans must play Prometheus if this is the case). But nothing related to a spiritual dimension can be shown to be existent via any logical or scientific argument. All religion eventually gets back to belief and, speaking as a lawyer here, the burden of proof should not be on those who refute any spiritual interpretation of the universe since there is NOTHING to substantiate such a claim. Rather the burden should shift to those who maintain there is a spiritual dimension and I would argue none, whether Muslim, Christian, Jew, Buddhist, Hindu, etc. can meet this burden of proof.
Agnosticism is the most honest of positions and Islam is the most terrible of spiritual belief systems. Nothing, I mean absolutely nothing, has ever come along which has dissuaded me from thinking otherwise. I would close by noting that the Judeo-Christian ethic is the most admirable of all religious ethics, regardless of the veracity of the theology. Just as I think it was almost inevitable that a major religion would come along that was intrinsically wicked (i.e., Islam), so I think it was almost inevitable that a major religion (or two) would develop an ethical system that would go hand in hand with the best the secular element of mankind developed (i.e., democracy and capitalism). This ain't rocket science and I don't quite understand why more can't comprehend this (perhaps because unprovable beliefs keep getting in the way).
Wellington,
"so I think it was almost inevitable that a major religion (or two) would develop an ethical system that would go hand in hand with the best the secular element of mankind developed (i.e., democracy and capitalism)."
I would suggest that the latter evolved organically out of the former; that the latter is in fact the former under a mutated form, so to speak.
Interesting concept, Hesperado. Seems to me, though, that the two intellectual (and moral) foundational blocks of Western Civilization, ancient Hebrew religious thinking and ancient Greek political and philosophical thought, developed independently but, through time, melded into the finest and noblest paradigm for a successful and enlightened civilization the world has ever seen (I would also add the greatness of Roman Law and Common Law to this extraordinary tradition).
Islam, of course, contributed nothing here except to parasitically incorporate elements from both traditions and occasionally add a partially interesting commentary still devoid of any real originality, as Bertrand Russell so trenchantly noted in his A History of Western Philosophy.
"I mentioned to RS that there were some legal issues he was not aware of in association with JW...I thought that paperwork would move off that govt. desk faster than it has...still sitting there at the red light, though. I was just giving him a coy warning of what may still be coming for him down the road. I would hate to foot that bill for what they might send him..." - Abdullah M.
What?
livingengine: What indeed. Strikes me as fascist, totalitarian in some way. In no way in keeping with the best of the Jeffersonian tradition. But then Jefferson and Mohammed are polar opposites in most everyway conceivable, with Jefferson winning on all counts (love his comment that the Koran is "demonic").
Wellington,
I'm not sure I understand the purport of your "though":
Seems to me, though, that the two intellectual (and moral) foundational blocks of Western Civilization, ancient Hebrew religious thinking and ancient Greek political and philosophical thought, developed independently but, through time, melded into the finest and noblest paradigm for a successful and enlightened civilization the world has ever seen (I would also add the greatness of Roman Law and Common Law to this extraordinary tradition).
If your "though" was meant to gently contest my thesis, I don't see how. Western Civilization as it developed in the High Middle Ages was a synthesis of Graeco-Roman and Judaeo-Christian thought. That's a seperate issue from the reconfiguration the West went through after that, developing into modern secularism. This latter developement, I suggest, is an organic evolution out of Christendom. Not without faults, of course -- some of them serious -- but nevertheless, modern secularism didn't fall from out of the blue sky.
Hesperado
if you have not yet read someone called David Bentley Hart, you should.
As a Christian theologian who knows his philosophers ancient and modern and *also* his theologians of both the Eastern Orthodox and the Western tradition, he has a very, very interesting 'take' on the intellectual/ spiritual history of what is loosely called 'western civilisation'.
You might find thought-provoking an essay he wrote for 'First Things', entitled 'Christ and Nothing (No Other God)' [October 2003].
I was, Hesperado, indeed gently contesting what appeared to me (could be wrong) to be your idea that democracy developed "organically" out of the Judeo-Christian ethical system (which by now you know I admire even though I am not religious). The ancient Greeks to their great credit invented democracy completely independently of any other tradition, as they developed so many other things with great originality. That's all I meant to convey.
"A teenager was also publicly punished, receiving 100 lashes over allegations that he raped a young girl."
Islamic punishment is dished out over allegations, no proof, no court which allows the defendant to make a defence and/or provide an alibi or produce witnesses..
Harsh Islamic punishment has been dished out by stoning women to death over allegations of adultry
Harsh Islamic punishment has been dished out by hanging men alledged to be gay.
Harsh Islamic punishment has been dished out by killing people accused of descecration of the Qur'an when they simply touched it in a way that riles the believers or they simpled dropped it or even tried to return it to its owner as in the case where a nine year old Christian boy saw a Qur'an fall from a motorbike..he picked it up and attempted to return it to the two Muslims on the bike ...the two Muslim promply killed him...and merrily drove away.
Does any sane person really want a system justice that can dish out such harsh penalties based on allegations...? If they do then Shar'ia law may be just what they deserve...but they won't be happy.
Wellington, I agree about the Greeks inventing democracy; however, I think it's more complicated than that. Greek democracy wasn't perfect. American democracy in its Republic framework I'd say is superior on certain levels (I doubt, for example, that the ancient Greeks, as wise as they were, and only using the exact same methods they used in the 5th century B.C., could have handled a vast, sprawling and mind-bogglingly diverse nation of over 300 million people). Thus, the legacy of the Greeks benefited from the improvement that a long-term evolution and increasing refinement of politics developed in the West over the centuries.
Just one historical detail offers a glimpse of the breadth of the issue: the development in the West (medieval Europe) over centuries of a parliamentary system: during this long process, the structures of that system slowly evolved out of feudalism, with the sub-society of knights around a king as a crude precursor, as well as the slowly increasing influence of towns outside of the previously dominant king's or prince's castle, and of the slowly growing nascent proto-middle class of the town burghers and tradesmen, etc. Now, one part of this overarching process in the development of the bones, organs and tissues of a parliamentary system without which there would be no modern Western democracy, I was amazed to learn from a Christian professor of history who taught at an unremarkably secular American university: in the course of his class "The History of Christianity", he mentioned that certain scholars in the field of the history of politics had traced part of that process of the developement of the Western parliamentary system as far back as the 4th century A.D., and continuing century after century: the Church Councils, where debate was vigorous and where the bishops and other church representatives were arrayed in a healthy tension of competing interests and goals that not only had theology for their focus but also the ordering of society. In these Church Councils, representatives of the the political sphere were usually present and had an intimate stake in the proceedings. The representatives of the Church were at various times in varying degrees in a healthy state of tension between dependence on the royal rulers, and independence from them. (Often, of course, this healthy tension broke out in unhealthy violence and recriminations.) The tension between Church and State, as it played out in these Church Councils, manifested itself structurally and procedurally in ways that prefigure, and likely contributed to, the later tension between lesser nobles & burghers, and the royalty. That's just one example of a way that Christendom concretely -- both in the realm of ideas and in the realm of sociopolitical activity -- contributed to modern secularism.
"God can be neither proven nor disproven. God can only be believed in. If one could prove the existence of God, one would not need faith." -- comment above
Can't prove God exists? Is faith necessary?
I can prove the existence of God: Jesus Christ! ...and placing ones Faith in Jesus Christ is the Key to connecting with God.
...I don't mean to sound preachy or to proselytize my Christian faith, I was simply addressing the question with what I think is the right answer.
Thanks dumbledoresarmy, I'm reading that essay now by David Bentley Hart. So far, I think I disagree with what seems to be one premise of his, that the modern West's culture of "comfortable nihilism" is radically alienated from religious faith and the virtues that flow from that faith. I think it's more complicated than that. I think modern Western "pop nihilism" is a current stage of a much broader, deeper and longer process in the ongoing evolution of faith. Part of the road of faith, hope and love inevitably, and perhaps necessarily, involves getting off the track in various ways. And there is also the important wrinkle that faith itself requires a substratum of nihilism, so to speak, to protect itself from turning into gnosticism. There is indeed a nihilum underlying Creation: perhaps Creation is being created out of the nothing continuously. The antidote to the loss of the tension that derails toward an excessive nihilism is not, I believe, a Tridentine insistence on the certitude of faith, bolstering faith so much with dogmatic cement it begins to resemble gnosticism; the more effective and truer antidote, I would suggest, is to find a way through the nihilism back to the Creation (and its Creator) who after all is supposed to have involved the nothing rather directly in the whole thing to begin with.
Also, this seeming hand-wringing (David Bentley Hart may not go this far, I'll have read more of him) over the loss of faith in modern times strikes me as indicative, ironically, of a loss of faith itself -- a loss of faith in the fact that there is no real nihilism, because it -- that is, nihilism in an untensional sense swallowing up Creation with which it is supposed to be in tension -- doesn't correspond to reality. It would be more helpful, I think, to regard the pop nihilists as groping for God in the only way they think they can, though of course overtly rejecting any framework that would put it that way. I'm not saying there are not major aspects to modernity that do not need to be ameliorated in this regard. I'm just saying that a Counter-Deformation that more or less repeats the Tridentine tactic of defending the ancien regime is not going to work.
"Like I said, you projected a preconceived notion
...it is an active war zone because the Govt of both
Pakistan and the US have made it as such..."
I think this is totally wrong.
The active war zone is between Sunites and Shiites, and dates way long
before the US even existed. There is ample proof of this from mulsim
historians, as non muslim ones. The same mistake is made about muslim
piracy (actually attributed to Somalians, but originating in Tripoli) in the
meditareanean, it existed a long time before the US even existed.
"What were the US military forces rules of engagement in Faluja, Iraq?"
As I explained above, the US have nothing to do with this century old rivality
"Am answer would be appreciated, if you don't honestly know I can accept that and I will tell you the answer"
An honest answer would be appreciated from me too, seriously.
Looking forward for your enlightnment on this subject,
K.M
Champ: I can prove the existence of God: Jesus Christ!
I fail to see how that proves anything?
Did jesus even exist? If so how are there so many accounts that vary so wildly from similar sources?
You'd have to better than that. It would be like me saying "The Invisible Pink Unicorn exists because the Tooth Fairy said so."
Neither in the TaNaKh nor in the Christian scripture is there any rule that a thief must have his hand cut off.
The punishment for theft, according to both Jewish and Christian writers, is 'restorative'.
In the TaNaKh a thief is required to restore what he stole; usually with something more thrown in on top.
That is a principle worth following, when one is dealing with the thief as such, whether repentant or not. In a way, when the British legal system in the 18th century and early 19th century decided that instead of hanging thieves they would send them to Australia as convict labourers, they were applying this kind of principle: one who has stolen, should become a producer. Many convicts did in fact forge new, productive lives for themselves and did not steal after finishing their sentences.
The New Testament envisages the possibility of moral transformation - someone who has been a thief is not doomed to remain a thief. The thief *can* stop stealing and start working.
St Paul states that penitent thieves - that is, people who have *been* thieves, and have now become Christians and are attempting to lead an honest life - must work *with their hands* (interesting choice of phrase)...not simply to sustain themselves, but in order that they can be generous.
That is: he envisages a repentant thief transformed from someone who *takes*, to someone who *gives*.
"Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth" (Ephesians 4: 28).
The thinking behind both sets of scripture, Hebrew and Christian - the Hebrew scripture, written down at least a thousand years before Islam, and the Christian, written down *six hundred years* before Islam - is infinitely more humane, infinitely more merciful, than the blind cruelty and stupidity of Islamic sharia which cuts off a thief's hand...thus permanently diminishing his or her capacity to lead a productive life in future.
Islamic sharia merely turns a thief into a cripple, thus permanently condemning him or her to a life of dependent beggary.
Posted by: Question_Everything!
"I fail to see how that proves anything?"
Jesus Christ is God in the flesh. IMO, it proves the existence of God.
"Did jesus even exist? If so how are there so many accounts that vary so wildly from similar sources?"
I believe He did. Apparently you don't think so. Your choice.
"You'd have to do better than that."
Actually, pointing to Jesus/God coming to earth and living among men is the best possible proof that anyone can offer, so it doesn't GET much better than that.
Jesus himself claimed to be God. And a person can either believe that He is Lord, or they are free to think that he was a lunatic. The choice is yours, as e both have a free will. You may choose to believe what you will, and I may choose to believe what I will. In your case, you question the very existence of Christ, so IMO, there is no need to debate. Take care.
Interesting reflections, Hesperado. Thanks for your comments. Hard in some ways to compare ancient Athenian democracy with the American version but I believe it can be done. Of course, the biggest difference is that the former was a pure democracy and the latter (by necessity) is a representative one (which some think doesn't make it a democray at all but "only" a republic, proceeding on the assumption, a mistaken one I would contend, that only a non-representative system can be a democracy). Regardless, I still give the ancient Greeks great credit for inventing democracy, as they invented so many other things. They are arguably the most original people of all time.
As for Church councils being proto-laboratories for democratic initiatives, perhaps, but I remain rather skeptical here, though I am not dismissing the idea out of hand. It's long been my conviction that it took the Protestant world, baring man's soul (which frankly I'm not sure exists) directly to God in contrast to the Catholic approach of all sorts of intermediary steps to the deity (which has its own merits and aesthetics but is very different nonetheless), to serve as a precursor to the rebirth of democracy, which places so much emphasis on direct personal responsibility. Sort of like agriculture being a pre-condition to the establishmnet of cities and writing and thus civiilization. In any case, good reading your assessments as always. Take care.