Ex-Muslim receives death threats after publishing article critical of Islam -- in Tulsa

He criticized all religious belief in his essay. But he's not in fear for his life from an angry mob down the road at Oral Roberts University. "Former Muslim receiving death threats," by Bill Sherman for Tulsa World, October 1 (thanks to Basil):

Sabri Husibi, a former Muslim who is now an atheist, says he has been ostracized and threatened with death since publication of a Tulsa World article Saturday in which he was critical of Islam and all other religions.

That article can be found here.

The article was written to promote a talk he gave the next day to the Tulsa Atheists organization.
Husibi, who has an unlisted telephone number, said he received about 30 calls Saturday from people who were cursing him, calling him a traitor and threatening him.
Most were foreign-born, Tulsa-area Muslims whom he knows, he said. He also received angry calls from friends and relatives in Syria.
One caller, whom Husibi would not identify, said that if he spoke at the meeting and said anything against Shariah (Islamic law), he would be killed.
Another caller offered Husibi's young Muslim wife $10,000 to leave him and return to her native Syria, he said.
"Someone from Tulsa called my 76-year-old mother in Syria and said, 'You're not going to see your son anymore,' " he said.
His critics' chief objection, he said, was to his statement that the Quran was written by men, not God, and has been changed over the years. They also objected to his comment that al-Qaida is respected by many Muslims. [...]
On Tuesday, a clearly shaken Husibi asked that any future articles emphasize that he is not attacking Islam alone but all religions, including "fundamentalist Christians like Timothy McVeigh and fundamentalist Jews who kill Muslim children in the Gaza Strip."

Husibi might take a step back at this point and reconsider who is calling for his head. And McVeigh, by the way, was an atheist at the time of the attacks. Before his execution, one article described him as agnostic -- but still not a "fundamentalist Christian."

He said Tulsa Muslims are awaiting an apology from him.
"I won't apologize," he said. "I'm not going to be a chicken. This is my right, to give my point of view."
Hussam Albakri, Husibi's second cousin, said he was surprised about the threats "because that's not what our religion teaches us."
Razi Hashmi, executive director of the Oklahoma chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, an Islamic civil-rights organization, said Husibi's comments are protected as free speech....

Well, for now at least, no thanks to the Tiny Minority of Extremists at the Organization of the Islamic Conference, and courtroom jihadists in the U.S. and Canada. No thanks to CAIR, either, for that matter.

Read it all.

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""I won't apologize," he said. "I'm not going to be a chicken. This is my right, to give my point of view."


Muslims don't like to hear this from people who show that Islam is not all it's cracked up to be....

And as usual the first Muslim responses are death threats..

Islam...the Religion of Death...

OT, but Obama has just quietly ceded control of the internet to the "international community".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2009/sep/30/icann-agreement-us

How long before Jihadwatch is extinguished for its exposition of the truth, branded a "hate site" by the coming powers to be (such as the IOC)? My guess is that Robert has less than 5 years to get his message across.

The "wild West" days of the internet are over. Freedom of expression will now take a back seat to the whims of dictators, despots, and imams.

islam-the death cult in action yet again.
I prefer an atheist over a muslim any time of the day

I wonder if AbieMichelle thinks that these death threats are unIslamic?

... a clearly shaken Husibi asked that any future articles emphasize that he is not attacking Islam alone but all religions, including "fundamentalist Christians like Timothy McVeigh and fundamentalist Jews who kill Muslim children in the Gaza Strip."

Mr. Husibi would do better keeping his atheism to himself rather than, out of fear for his life, having to debase himself with distortions and disgusting lies in hope to avert his beheading. It wouldn’t surprise me if he suddenly "sees the light" and returns to the fold of islam.

Glad to see Sabri Husibi going public with his apostasy. The more the courageous individuals like Husibi, Rifqa Bary, et al., go public, the safer it will be in the long run for apostates in the West to "come out." They, and the well-known apostates like Ibn Warraq, Hirsi Ali, Wafa Sultan, Nonie Darwish, and many others, are trail-blazers, pioneers.

As for Timothy McVeigh's religious status, that doesn't seem to be relevant to his motive for the bombing. Husibi needs to get his facts straight here. That said, I doubt the claim (which is unsupported, as far as I can tell) that he was an atheist. Here's what McVeigh said in an interview with Time:

"TIME: Are you religious?
MCVEIGH: I was raised Catholic. I was confirmed Catholic (received the sacrament of confirmation). Through my military years, I sort of lost touch with the religion. I never really picked it up, however I do maintain core beliefs.
TIME: Do you believe in God?
MCVEIGH: I do believe in a God, yes. But that's as far as I want to discuss. If I get too detailed on some things that are personal like that, it gives people an easier way alienate themselves from me and that's all they are looking for now."
http://www.time.com/time/nation/printout/0,8816,109478,00.html

Whatever he was, he was not an atheist according to this. Nor was he a Christian fundamentalist.

From the Guardian article:

"In his letter, McVeigh said he was an agnostic but that he would "improvise, adapt and overcome", if it turned out there was an afterlife. "If I'm going to hell," he wrote, "I'm gonna have a lot of company." His body is to be cremated and his ashes scattered in a secret location."

He doesn't sound like much of an agnostic either.

Finally proof of counter-jihad activists associating with antisemitic neo-Nazi types... oh wait, that is the Muslims associating with antisemitic neo-Nazi types. Sorry, false alarm.

Thomas H says:

"Mr. Husibi would do better keeping his atheism to himself..."

On the contrary, he should definitely continue to publicize it, especially in regards to having left Islam. The more variety of apostates from Islam, the more difficult it is for Islam apologists and left-leaning media to spin this whole apostasy issue as exaggerated by "right-wing" "Christian fundamentalists" etc.

Husibi is an incredibly stupid idiot -- at least as far as his statements about other religions go.

Everything I have read about McVeigh is that he made some statements indicating he was agnostic and others indicating he was Deist -- two not totally incompatible viewpoints. i.e. one is "undecided" about God and the other has a vague notion of an uninvolved God.

However, there is no evidence whatsoever that McVeigh was motivated by any religion. His motivation was purely political and reflected a deep-seated hatred/fear of the US Government.

Also, who are the "fundamentalist Jews" he refers to who "kill Muslim children" ???? Sorry, but I have never met a "fundamentalist Jew".

(The term "Fundamentalist" was coined to refer specifically to Christians who believe in the 5 basic "fundamentals" of Christianity, and isn't really applicable to other religions, esp Judaism)

Perhaps he mean "Orthodox Jews" ? But even then, what specific instance is he referring to?

I suspect he is really talking about the IDF protecting its citizens from the constant barrage of rocket attacks. Even so, it should be Hamas he is complaining about here, because it was only due to their use of civilians and children as "human shields" that such collateral damage occured.

But the bottom line is, it isnt fundamentalist Christians or Orthodox Jews that Husibi has to worry about. It's only Muslems.

Kind of destroys his moral equivalence argument.

Islam and Christianity is that allah their god said kill. No where in the CHRISTIAN Scripture does it tell Christians to kill Jews or Muslims. If a man who says he is a christians kills he is wrong as the bible never said kill, steal, lie or fornicate, but if they do theat is on them, not god.
The Bible says, a fool has said in his heart there IS NO GOD. IT IS A CHOICE AND THIS MAN MADE HIS. So did McVeigh.
Many children were killed by McVeigh, old people, sick people, all kinds of people. On 9-11 Muslims killed other Muslims on 9-11 and three little black children who had done well and won a trip to Disney. The low-lifed sons of allah did it to get 72 big breasted white women and 28 white boys as promised by allah and wine by the rivers. The cave that Mo had his vision was whwere arabs went to smoke drugs.

In August I sent a letter to Charlie Crist and received a reply on the 18th of August. I just received a second letter:

Thank you for contacting Governor Charlie Crist and sharing your concerns about Ms. Fathima (Rifqa) Bary. The Governor asked that I respond on his behalf. Ms. Bary is safe and comfortable, currently living in a foster home. Her case is proceeding through the juvenile court system. Ms. Bary'scourt-appointed representative, known as a Guardian Ad Litem, has filed a Petition for Dependency, seeking to have Ms. Bary declared a ward of the State of Florida. Legal counsel from the Florida Department of Children and Families is present at every proceeding to protect the bestinterests of the child, and Governor Crist's General Counsel is closely monitoring the case. At the most recent hearing, Judge Daniel Dawson ordered Ms. Bary and her parents to participate in mediation in hopes of reaching some understanding and agreement about this difficult situation. The mediation is scheduled for early October. Ms. Bary's parents have filed legal documents seeking to dismiss the Florida case and have proceedings moved to a court in Ohio. The motion is pending and the trial court hasnot made a decision. Please be assured that Governor Crist and the Florida Department of Children and Families will take an active role to protect the bestinterests of Ms. Bary. Thank you again for taking the time to contact Governor Crist.
Sincerely,
Warren Davis
Office of Citizen Services

Kinana of Kh.,

Your reply to my comment is incongruous.

If you want to argue my comment you should refer to its entirety rather than picking up a part of its opening sentence.
If you try to read it again you will see that after saying “Mr. Husibi would do better keeping his atheism to himself..." I also explain WHY I think he should do so. In fact that constitutes the bulk and the essence of my comment and that is what you should have addressed.
But I think the posting by StevenDvd immediately after your own brings home my point very nicely. Please read it as it may give you a hint of what I think of mr. Husibi and his atheism.

"Sorry, but I have never met a 'fundamentalist Jew'."

Me neither. Still, "Torah-beating rabbi" has a certain ring to it.

GODLESS MARXISTS ALSO RING A BELL.
ALLAH AKBAR RINGS A BELL.
IF A PERSON BELIEVES AND DOES SOMETHING THEY DO IT BECAUSE IT IS SAID OR BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE IT DOES, RIGHT OR WRONG.

I HAVE A RIGHT TO DO UNTO MUSLIMS OR ANYONE ELSE BEFORE THEY DO UNTO ME! YOU HAVE THAT RIGHT ALSO!

Thomas H,

My disagreement with your comment stating that Husibi should keep his atheism to himself is entirely congruous. He needs to state his atheism to indicate what belief he's apostatized to, but you're telling him to keep that to himself. Your suggestion is incongruous.

That Husibi has made factually incorrect or factually unsupported claims about other matters is irrelevant to whether he should "[keep] his atheism to himself."

Don't try to blame me for what you said. You obviously are on some kind of hobby horse against atheists. That's clear from your previous posts. If you don't mean that he "would do better keeping his atheism to himself," then don't say that he "would do better keeping his atheism to himself" and stick to the point that you now claim, after I pointed this out, that you wanted to make.

You write: "But I think the posting by StevenDvd immediately after your own brings home my point very nicely. Please read it as it may give you a hint of what I think of mr. Husibi and his atheism."

Actually, it was StevenDvd that made the point, not you, and I already read it. Again, you suggest that Husibi's statements reflect "his atheism," whereas they are unsubstantiated accusations that all kinds of ill-informed people make and do not follow from "atheism" as such.

"fundamentalist Christians like Timothy McVeigh

Assume Ass,U,Me

Every day the ummah provides us with examples that they are indeed different. When will we learn that their automatic 'tu quoque' arguments and desperate attempts at moral equivilence ring hollow.

Husibi was speaking against all religions in the heart of the Bible Belt. I am sure that there is no shortage of hardcore Bible Thumpers in the Tulsa area, but Husibi will be completely safe from all of them. But with the few mohamedans around, he fears for his life.

Moral equivilence my ar$e.

Thanks for that information, Cornelius. Chilling and yet not surprising considering whom we have as President right now.

So, death threats are alright then? He makes some remarks against Islam, and he deserves to die for them? Would you like to elaborate?

Not only was McVeigh an agnostic/atheist, he was a radical Leftist. His statements expressing a bleeding heart sympathy for the poor Iraqi people being abused and killed by evil Americans have a decidedly radical Leftist tonality.

Example:

As Leftist reporter Alexander Cockburn writes:

"Here's a couple of paragraphs from his handwritten submission to Media By-Pass in 1998:"

"Remember Dresden? How about Hanoi? Tripoli? Baghdad? What about the big ones - Hiroshima and Nagasaki? (At these two locations, the US killed at least 150,000 noncombatants - mostly women and children - in the blink of an eye. Thousands more took hours, days, weeks, or months to die.) If Saddam is such a demon, and people are calling for war crimes charges against him and his nation, whey do we not hear the same cry for blood directed at those responsible for even greater amounts of 'mass destruction'- like those responsible and involved in dropping bombs on the cities mentioned above?

"The truth is, the U.S. has set the standard when it comes to the stockpiling and use of weapons of mass destruction. Hypocrisy when it comes to the death of children? In Oklahoma City, it was family convenience that explained the presence of a day-care center placed between street level and the law enforcement agencies which occupied the upper floors of the building. Yet when discussion shifts to Iraq, any day-care center in a government building instantly becomes 'a shield.' Think about that. (Actually, there is a difference here. The administration has admitted to knowledge of the presence of children in or near Iraqi government buildings, yet they still proceed with their plans to bomb - saying that they cannot be held responsible if children die. There is no such proof, however, that knowledge of the presence of children existed in relation to the Oklahoma City bombing.)"

http://www.counterpunch.org/mcveigh.html

And it is no accident or reflection of perversity on their part that the radical Leftists Alexander Cockburn and Gore Vidal were both impressed by such sentiments by McVeigh.

And furthermore, as for those who call McVeigh a "right-wing Christian" and say he's equivalent to a Jihadist, consider that McVeigh made no final statement before his execution other than copying out the poem Invictus by W.E. Henley. If he were the Christian equivalent of the hundreds of Muslim Jihadists we've seen (and all those martyrdom videos), his final statement would have included quotes from the Bible, copious references to Jesus Christ and God, and defense of the Nicene Creed. Instead, all McVeigh provided was an agnostic poem which has nothing remotely religious save for one line -- "I thank whatever gods may be" -- a decidedly skeptical and agnostic statement concerning divinity, and certainly utterly devoid of Christian fanaticism, let alone Christian anything.

Link to the poem: http://www.bartleby.com/103/7.html

Funny he can criticize any religion or belief system in the world but not Islam. Imagine what is going to happen in the future as our foolish government adds more amd more Muslim refugees and immigrants to our populations. At some point in time it will all come to a head and erupt like a volcanoe. Some of them, not all, do not come to add to our culture but to subdue it and make us change to their ways.
Muhammad is a false prophet and sharia law is evil. Wake up Americans!!

Islam is Arab Imperialism and needs to return to saudi arabia and remain for another 1400 yrs.

silly tillly,

You even had to ask? Even aking shows your bias...poor thing...you must not remember me from one post to the next such is your media intoxication.

But wait...the next story JW posts will make you forget about this post.

The person did nothing deserving of harm.

Peace
Abdullah

Kinana of Kh.

Well, for the sake of brevity I’ll start from the middle hoping that after addressing that strange allegation contained there it will be clear why I don’t care to answer other, not less strange, parts of your posting.

Here goes:
Don't try to blame me for what you said. You obviously are on some kind of hobby horse against atheists. That's clear from your previous posts.

“Obviously clear”?

That’s some revelation. You obviously are on some kind of hobby horse spotting belligerent anti-atheists under every bed. Anyway, do hurry up and substantiate your assumption with relevant quotes from my previous posts, so the others may appreciate your findings.

I could also encourage you to read again my recent postings on the subject, but I am afraid there is no point doing that as you have already made up your mind to understand it as a general recommendation for all and everyone to keep quiet about their apostasy. Quite original, if I may say so.

Seriously, it is not my fault that you prefer interpreting it the way suiting your fantasy and hastily skip over anything that may contradict it, but I can give you a hint: My comment was about the man and his atheism, not against atheism in general. Whether he is an atheist, or theist of any sort has nothing to do with my contempt for him. Not because he is misinformed, as you are saying, but because he is a coward and a liar.
I may also add that I admire people like Ibn Warraq and Hirsi Ali who, as you may know, are atheists. Now, how does that fact support your diagnosis of me being an enemy of atheism?

I wonder mildly if others had the same problem understanding my point and seeing why your reply was, yes, perfectly incongruous.

I probably won’t be tempted to reply to your possible response. Please do not take it as a sign of rudeness. You have initiated an exchange and I obliged. But the subject is much too boring and your reactions too predictable for me to carry it much further.

"The person did nothing deserving of harm."

Peace
Abdullah

For leaving Islam and being openly critical of it has caused many former Muslims to be hunted down and killed in the most violent of ways, and this person is already receiving Islamic death threats (from the followers of the Religion of Peace..no less)....come to think of it most if not all of the well known "apostates" already have Muslim death warrants/fatwas placed upon them by the very pious Islamic clerics of the Religion of Peace..Muslims may be loud about it or they may keep it quiet, but one day if the "apostate" slips in keeping the absolute security measures needed to stay alive...he is found dead...this is particularily true in the Muslim dominated countries..

Come to think about it, in some Muslims countries the "apostates" are not allowed to leave the country, not allowed to escape to a friendlier climate where they just may live longer, the Muslims have discovered it is easier to kill them while they are in Muslim dominated countries (not that they cannot be killed elsewhere), and much easier to harrass them and make their lives miserable....

Muslims are the most ruthless bounty hunters that can be found...especially if the wanted poster has a name and photo of an "apostate". Muslims kill for free...no negotiations, no compromise, no exceptions, and definitely no forgiveness or acceptance of the "apostates" chosen religious path...

Muslims are so paranoid about loosing its followers to other religions that they are willing to kill them if they do leave. Muslims, once they become dominant will resort to "forced conversions"...your choices are slim...convert, pay them protection money, or die...The Muslims prefer you to die as you may harbor lingering memories of the way things used to be...

If you look around you will find no Muslim dominated country with a happy populace...the people are perpetually angry, short tempered and very violent with short fuses...their usual answer to everything is death...theirs or yours ...it doesn't matter, but they will try to take you out first...

As the number of captured potential terrorist wannabees increases around the world, one gets the sense that these people are not just a few "misundersanders" of the Religion of Islam....they are just the first wave of boarders on your ship....more and more will come...and each new wave will be more violent than the last...They have their instruction from the Qur'an on just what they must do...

Theirs is not to question but just to act....just look around the world for all the examples...it is not hard to connect the dots....

Abdullah Mikail needs to be apprehended and deported from the West.

This man criticizes Islam and other religions,but Muslims react with death threats while the others allow him the freedom to do so.Don't Muslims see how badly this reflects on their religion?Where is their claim of "no compulsion to religion?"

Thomas_h,

You quote me:
“Don't try to blame me for what you said. You obviously are on some kind of hobby horse against atheists. That's clear from your previous posts.”

and you reply

T "“Obviously clear”? That’s some revelation. You obviously are on some kind of hobby horse spotting belligerent anti-atheists under every bed."

No, not really. If I were to argue with everyone who makes a derisive remark about atheism/atheists on JihadWatch, there would be nothing left of my time. Most of the time, I don't talk about atheism. My general policy is that I don’t get on to atheism unless others bring it up. You can see that that’s what happened in this thread.

T “Anyway, do hurry up and substantiate your assumption with relevant quotes from my previous posts, so the others may appreciate your findings.”

As you request. Here are a few examples, based on a brief search, where you raised the topic of atheism in JihadWatch threads where it seemed irrelevant:

T “I’d risk the assertion that a blood libel of the sort printed by the AftonBladet would meet much greater criticism in Sweden a few decades ago than today. And the reason is not that Sweden became more Christian, on the contrary – it became an atheist state ruled by totalitarian leftist ideology bent on destruction of the Judeo-Christian West.”

Here you blame atheism and other factors for a blood libel printed in AftonBladet. You provide no evidence for this assertion as regards to atheism. Atheism is simply thrown in there with other hobby horses.

T “Humans are born both with love of good and attraction to corruption. An individual may reject God yet continue being a decent person. But a God-less society must slide into cesspool.”

Wouldn’t want society to slide into the “cesspool” due to atheism, right?

T “Atheism was one of the most fundamental elements of Nazism - and its chief ideologists Hitler, Rosenberg, Goebels, Himmler despised Christianity.”

Again, an irrelevant introduction of atheism, plus a wild claim, plus no evidence cited that atheism was “one of the most fundamental elements of Nazism,” and no attempt to explain the well-known evidence to the contrary.


T “I could also encourage you to read again my recent postings on the subject, but I am afraid there is no point doing that as you have already made up your mind to understand it as a general recommendation for all and everyone to keep quiet about their apostasy.”

If you read my posts above, you will see that I did not accuse you of telling all atheists to keep their atheism to themselves. I was saying that, contrary to your admonition that Husibi keep his atheism to himself, he ought to continue to publicize it in the context of describing his apostasy.

Thomas_h,

You wrote:
T “Seriously, it is not my fault that you prefer interpreting it the way suiting your fantasy and hastily skip over anything that may contradict it, but I can give you a hint: My comment was about the man and his atheism, not against atheism in general. Whether he is an atheist, or theist of any sort has nothing to do with my contempt for him. Not because he is misinformed, as you are saying, but because he is a coward and a liar.”

1. Declaring an apostasy from Islam in public is not a cowardly act. I doubt that he would think that his added shots at Christianity and Judaism were going to win him any protection, or reduce the outrage from some Muslims, in response to his criticisms of Islam. There is no specific evidence to assume that he lied about the other items, where “lie” means that one believes something is false but presents it as true. We do know that he is very probably mistaken about the other items—and recklessly so; but we do not know that he lied.

2. Your comment about Husibi’s “atheism” was that he ought to keep it to himself. That’s what I disagreed with.

T “I may also add that I admire people like Ibn Warraq and Hirsi Ali who, as you may know, are atheists. Now, how does that fact support your diagnosis of me being an enemy of atheism?”

The premise that you may admire them personally is not relevant to the issue of their lack of belief—-unless you admire them because they are atheists/agnostics. Note: Ibn Warraq is reportedly an agnostic. Whether you admire them is not relevant, as my objection pertained to your admonition that Husibi should keep his "atheism" to himself.

...and Rifqa Bary's family is so loving---not.

The bias is all yours Abdullah

Unveiled

Yes, I have my own bias...I know who I am, and I have a very firm understanding of the Quran and the Sunnah.

The difference between we two is that I do not project my bias onto others.

I talk about what I believe and i am able to back up every single position I take on Quran and Sunnah.

You on the other hand project your bigoted views onto others and attempt to frame them, Muslims in general, so that others think and agree with your sick world views on what and who you want others to think Muslims are. You read yellow journalism and believe every bit of your prejudice and bigotry is justified because you think the reports here are universal standard when they are clearly not.

Keep on your track, I will keep mine...of we two I believe the only thing you do in support of your bigoted ideals is post vitriol here while I on the other hand post here only to oppose the lies and obfuscation of bigots like you...only I support my faith and my ideas outside of this medium with real world infrastructure and organizations that forward the very ideals I express here.

The best evidence I can take from JW in any report to the general public or governmental agency is the fact that you people are so incensed and so driven by your hatred that you don't even want to hear the truth I relay...plainly stated, suppoted by multiple Islamic scholars both living PhDs, Masters and Bachelors of Islamic Studies as well as those references from classical scholars...all because what I write and explain to you does not fit your ste filled bigoted views...you people here sound more like National Socialists than you will ever admit.

Peace
Abdullah

Ladies and gentlemen

observe the open threat made by Abdullah Mikail in his latest posting, above?

He is going to try to accuse everyone here of being 'haters'. Why? As far as I can see, at bottom because we don't want sharia to reign in the USA or Australia or anywhere else, and have expressed our views upon this openly and strongly, and at times with real and rational anger.

But then we already know that in Islamspeak, *anyone* who rejects Islam, who resists the Jihad, who resists the imposition of sharia - who chooses to prefer either no faith at all, or a different faith from Islam, and refuses to bow to an Arab Muslim or a pseudo-Arab Muslim despot/ gang boss - places themselves outside the pale of what Muslims define as humanity, and becomes Designated Prey, to be warred upon, pillaged, raped, enslaved, mass murdered.

I am a 'hater' simply because, being a Christian, I say No to Islam. I am worse than a murderer, because I commit 'shirk'; that is, I insist on confessing and believing that Yeshua of Nazareth is both a first-century Jewish rabbi AND the Son of the Living God. No matter what else I do or say, that fact alone, in Muslim eyes, suffices to condemn me and make me an object of hatred and dehumanising contempt.

Samuel Zwemer (d. 1952), an American scholar of Islam, and former editor of Moslem World, reported the following in 1920 (in "Moslem World," Vol. 10, pp. 154-155)

'A few years ago (reports Zwemer) one of the leading Moslems of Baghdad wrote an article for a French journal entitled, The Final Word of Islam to Europe:

"For us in the world there are only believers and unbelievers; love, charity, fraternity toward believers; contempt, disgust, hatred, and war against unbelievers.

"Amongst the unbelievers the most hateful and criminal are those who, while recognizing God, attribute to Him earthly relationship, give Him a son, a mother.
"Learn then, European observers, that a Christian of no matter what position, from the simple fact he is a Christian is in our eyes a blind man fallen from all human dignity.”'

Thus a Muslim of Baghdad, educated and literate, writing for Europeans to read, in the early 20th century, as observed and reported by Samuel Zwemer.

Let's think about that line - 'contempt, disgust, hatred and war against unbelievers'.

Or again, 'the most hateful and criminal are those who, while recognising God, attribute to him earthly relationship, give him a son, a mother' [i.e. Christians]. 'A Christian of no matter what position...is in our [Muslim] eyes a blind man fallen from all human dignity'.

Who, pray, are the haters? Seems to me that it is the Muslims - dehumanising the Christians, condemning them - *because of their [the Christians'] theology alone* - as 'hateful and criminal'. It is the *Muslims* who, according to this Muslim of Baghdad, are supposed to feel and practise 'contempt, disgust, hatred and war against unbelievers' [i.e. against all non-Muslims].

And I think every now and again, when the mask has slipped, 'Abdullah Mikail' has indulged himself in those Islamically mandated feelings of contempt, hatred and disgust...especially toward those of us on this board who identify ourselves as Christians.

Well, I just arrived home after a long weekend in woods, so it will be a short one and I will adress only a few absurdities you present me with. I know I will regret going back on my declaration of not responding to you, but I couldn't resist the temptation. This is absolutely last time.

Most of the time, I don't talk about atheism. … I don’t get on to atheism unless others bring it up. You can see that that’s what happened in this thread.

Really?
It happened in this thread because YOU yourself brought it in. Not I.
What I said was that he should keep his atheism to himself, instead of making it public, if he has no guts to face the consequences and soils his pants and honour by lies in hope to appease his ex co-religionists.
You must suffer from an atheism-induced hysteria not to see that my comment was about his COWARDICE and his desperate pathetic lying and had nothing to do with his atheism. In fact I would have made the same comment had I been an atheist myself. And I would have said the same if he had declared publicly that he is a homosexual and brought on himself the wrath of the mohammedan community.

Although I consider both atheism and homosexuality a civilizational malady and am aware of the damage caused by them to our civilization I never seek an occasion to debate their respective followers unless a follower annoys me with some silly allegations like you did.
You saw a word “atheism” in a critical (but not critical of atheism) text and that was enough for you to make a foolish, uncalled for, snide remark about my alleged anti-atheist hobby horse. While it is true that I consider atheism an error, my belief was neither a motive for, or in any way expressed in, my comment. That you have somehow succeeded in detecting anti-atheism in my comment is because of your own hyperactive anti-theism hobby horse which makes you producing that ridiculous histrionics of yours.
And then you bring in three instances on other threads where I do mention atheism negatively. Are you trying to say that atheism musn’t be mentioned unless with respect? Why? Because it is a religion of a billion and half people? So bloody what?
You also come up with a bizarre claim that the atheism I criticise was not relevant to the subject discussed. Don’t be ridiculous. As long as my interlocutor and I think it was relevant who do you think you are to tell us it was not?
Listen.I will make as many derisive remarks about anything as I want - including the religion of atheism. If that offends you it is your problem. As it happens I never made one derisive remark about atheists or atheism on this threat as you are alleging. You created a crude straw man and make a big show attacking it. Well, have fun, but don’t think the charade is not obvious.

To sum it up:
What happened on this thread is YOUR over the top reaction to my remark that if one has no guts to defend his truth and has to debase himself with lies hoping to appease his enemies one should shut up. In other words do not make a contemptible, embarrassing spectacle of yourself regardless if you talk of islam or other life threatening subjects.
Had he defended his stand without sickeningly placatory whimpering and lies I would have nothing, but respect for the man.
But you couldn’t wait to jump on a conclusion suiting best your own hobby horse and your pet fixation and not only overshot the target, but after being told you did so and shown where and why, chose to defend your incongruous rambling with obfuscations worth of Abdula Michail himself, instead of a simple “Oops!”

So, death threats are alright then? He makes some remarks against Islam, and he deserves to die for them? Would you like to elaborate?

Not before you learn to read.

Thomas_h,

You go on to make an assortment of wild, unsupported, and hostile allegations, comparing me to our resident Islam defender Abdullah Mikail. You also attribute to me, and then argue against, claims that I did not make.

You say “This is absolutely last time” you will respond to me.

Good. Anyways, I think I made myself reasonably clear in my initial response to you in this thread, but you’ve added more false accusations, unsupported claims, introduced further of your hobby horses (e.g., now you trot out homosexuality as a “civilizational malady”), and fallacies of relevance.

T “It happened in this thread because YOU yourself brought it in. Not I.”

As I said, others brought in the topic of atheism before I addressed it. Your post admonishing Husibi to keep his atheism to himself appears October 2, 4:03 AM, and my response to your post appears at 4:46 AM.

I did not introduce the topic of atheism to this thread. First Husibi is an atheist and that was an aspect of the story. Second, Marisol claimed that McVeigh was an atheist at the time of the bombing, but when I checked the link she provided, I could find no evidence to support this claim, just a parenthetical remark by Kantor who reviewed Spencer’s book Religion of Peace?. (BTW, in that book, Spencer actually writes that McVeigh was “an agnostic at the time of the bombing,” but apparently Kantor has substituted in the word "atheist" for "agnostic"). That’s why I addressed the issue of McVeigh’s alleged beliefs in my first post.

T “What I said was that he should keep his atheism to himself, instead of making it public, if he has no guts to face the consequences and soils his pants and honour by lies in hope to appease his ex co-religionists.”

That Husibi makes false or unsupported statements about other topics has nothing to do with the issue of whether or not he should make his atheism public when declaring his apostasy.

T “Are you trying to say that atheism musn’t be mentioned unless with respect?”

No.

T “As it happens I never made one derisive remark about atheists or atheism on this threa[d] as you are alleging.”

The issue of honesty and accuracy is relevant in an exchange. In direct contradiction to your above claim, you said that Husibi should keep his atheism to himself, you referred to atheism as a “civilizational malady,” claimed that I suffered from an “atheism-induced hysteria,” etc. I’m not asking you to respect me or other atheists; just show some honesty by acknowledging what you wrote, and show some self-discipline by remaining on topic. Show some respect for the process of discussion and debate by refraining from ad hominem and other fallacies of relevance.

Boohoo…

What a pathetic whimpering of a phoney who has lost his way in a maze of his own falsehoods and now desperately tries to save his face by assuming the pose of moral superiority delivering that ludicrous, sham lecture about “the issue of honesty”. Gosh, what an embarrassing spectacle…
At least Abdullah concerts of obfuscations, while getting one mad, never make one cringe.

And now, goodbye for good. This time I really, really mean it.
Unless of course, I shall find something irresistible to comment on in the next episode in your cavalcade of BS. But it has to be something truly new. As I said before, you are too predictable to excite me after your initial few salvos of absurdities. Still, one never knows.

Boohoo…

What a pathetic whimpering of a phoney who has lost his way in a maze of his own falsehoods and now desperately tries to save his face by assuming the pose of moral superiority delivering that ludicrous, sham lecture about “the issue of honesty”. Gosh, what an embarrassing spectacle…
At least Abdullah concerts of obfuscations, while getting one mad, never make one cringe.

And now, goodbye for good. This time I really, really mean it.
Unless of course, I shall find something irresistible to comment on in the next episode in your cavalcade of BS. But it has to be something truly new. As I said before, you are too predictable to excite me after your initial few salvos of absurdities. Still, one never knows.

Thomas, Kinana

after watching that knock-down drag-out fight, to the accompaniment of breaking glasses and spilling beer and chairs knocked over...

I would just like to let you both know that when I read my way through the comments I generally look out for *both* your monikers. I would have to say that I like you both!

In analysing assorted articles that have appeared here, and in reflections on Mohammedanism generally, you have *both* written intelligent and interesting comments.

Please refrain from attacking one another like this. It is a most unseemly sight.

"The laughter of Mordor will be our only reward if we quarrel" (to quote, not Dumbledore, but Gandalf).

Thomas_h,

"Boohoo…What a pathetic whimpering..."

Demonstrating some of your falsehoods, appealing for a proper debate, and so forth, is "whimpering"?

"of a phoney"

More ad hominem. "Phoney" implies false, but you haven't shown that anything I've said is false.

"who has lost his way in a maze of his own falsehoods"

What falsehoods? I'm waiting for you to demonstrate one thing that I've argued here that is false. I'll certainly acknowledge an error if you demonstrate that I've made one. I've admitted errors and made corrections before on JW, but you will have to demonstrate your case. Hint: "Boohoo...phoney...[etc]" does not constitute making your case.

"...now desperately tries to save his face by assuming the pose of moral superiority delivering that ludicrous, sham lecture about “the issue of honesty”."

You are perhaps forgetting that I showed examples of your dishonesty before making the appeal to you to be honest.

"what an embarrassing spectacle…"

I didn't know this was a "spectacle" or that it was about embarrassment. Is it? Initially, I thought we were arguing over whether Husibi should mention his atheism in publicizing his apostasy. As far as I can tell, you still believe he ought to keep his atheism to himself.

"At least Abdullah concerts of obfuscations, while getting one mad, never make one cringe."

If my statements bother you more than Abdullah's, then maybe you ought to take a step back and take some time to reflect.

"And now, goodbye for good. This time I really, really mean it. Unless of course [...etc.]"

I see. To post or not to post, that is the question.

If you do decide to post, how about getting back to the issue you raised, which was whether or not Husibi should have kept his atheism to himself when he announced publicly his apostasy?

dumbledores,

Thanks for that appeal. I have no problem continuing the debate as such, except for my concern that this might annoy other readers and the host. The points have been made and there seems to be little forward movement. I will finish here, and let Thomas have the last word if he so chooses.

dumbledoresarmy,

The reason I was drawn, and contributed, to the brawl is that I very much dislike having my words selectively picked up from a full sentence in order to distort its meaning, so it may be used as a straw man.

And yes, Gandalf is right and you are very right to quote him.

Thank you for reminding me what this blog is about. Need to watch it next time.

Cheers,

Thomas







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