Islamic apologists will again assure us that honor killing has nothing to do with Islam and is a cultural practice followed by a wide variety of peoples -- and yet Muslim girls keep getting killed in disproportionate numbers. No one, of course, dares to confront the root of the problem by pointing out such inconvenient truths as the fact that a manual of Islamic law certified by Al-Azhar as a reliable guide to Sunni orthodoxy says that "retaliation is obligatory against anyone who kills a human being purely intentionally and without right." However, "not subject to retaliation" is "a father or mother (or their fathers or mothers) for killing their offspring, or offspring's offspring." ('Umdat al-Salik o1.1-2).
In other words, someone who kills his child incurs no legal penalty under Islamic law. In accord with this, in 2003 the Jordanian Parliament voted down on Islamic grounds a provision designed to stiffen penalties for honor killings. Al-Jazeera reported that "Islamists and conservatives said the laws violated religious traditions and would destroy families and values."
"She got pregnant outside marriage, so father killed her: police," from AFP, October 19 (thanks to Andrew):
A Jordanian man was charged on Sunday with premeditated murder after allegedly stabbing to death his 22-year-old daughter because she became pregnant outside wedlock, police said."The father and his brother took the girl on Saturday to a doctor because she suffered stomach pains, and everybody was surprised to learn that she was six months pregnant," a police spokesman said.
"On their way home, the father stabbed the girl with a sword 25 times in her stomach, killing her immediately as well as her unborn baby boy."...
Murder is punishable by the death penalty in Jordan but in such cases of the so-called "honour killings" a court usually commutes or reduces sentences, particularly if the victim's family urges leniency.
In the past, parliament has refused to institute harsher penalties.
Around 15-20 women are murdered each year in Jordan in the name of honour, despite government efforts to fight such crimes. So far this year, 17 cases have been reported.
The blood letting by Mohammedan thugs continues unabated. The apologists of Islam are guilty of crimes against humanity as are Mohammedans.
Grease up the Guillotine and chop this bastard's head off.
be quick now....call CODE PINK....maybe they can protest something worth protesting....oh wait , they don't care about Islamic slaughter of women.
A man killing a woman is hard to fathom.
A man killing a pregnant woman is even more so.
A Muslim father killing his pregnant daughter isn't surprising. Jew Lover
These "dishonor killings" not being covered demonstrate that not only is the MSM hypocritical, but cowardly beyond belief.
Let me get this straight: out of concern for his daughter, the father took her to the doctor because she suffered stomach pains. Out of concern for his inability to deal with his insecurities, he stabbed her in the stomach 25 times on the way home. At what point did the daughter's suffering cease to matter?
I was just wondering, do Muslims have a humanity switch that they can turn on and off as needed? Or are their insecurities pathological?
Does it matter anymore?
If Muslims in Muslim lands want to kill their own, should we waste our energy on them?
If they can justify such barbarism are they worth our time?
Mitigating circumstances presented by his defense attorneys: the Crusades, the Inquisition, Vietnam, Hiroshima, Timothy McVeigh, Bush, Pat Robertson...
"I was just wondering, do Muslims have a humanity switch that they can turn on and off as needed? Or are their insecurities pathological?" -- Isabella
Funny you should ask those questions, Isabella.
Yesterday my Wafa Sultan book, "A God Who Hates," arrived on my doorstep from amazon, and I started reading it last night.
On page 26 she says:
"The teachings of Islam have destroyed the men and women there [in the Middle East], and rendered them incapable of the smallest measure of humane behavior."
I believe that answers your questions.
I hear ya' Darcy. They are not like us.
I've been working my way through Dave Gaubatz' "Muslim Mafia" this weekend, although, working through it is not accurate. Flying through it is more like it.
I've read the quote "no such thing as honor killing" from apologists several times now, so I thought I'd google it. I got 19,500 entries searching that exact phrase.
P.S. Only about 200 of the entries for the above phrase show up in my browser, a significant percentage are about the Rifqa case, and there are often multiple secondary sources for each different story. Nevertheless, my point remains about the frequency of the brazen denials that honor killings exist (in Islam), down to the verbatim usage of a particular phrase by apologists.
I see your point. And yet, K of K, we've got dead Muslim girls all over the place.
How long before we have lots and lots of dead American girls all over the place? Time to nip this in the bud.
Murder is punishable by the death penalty in Jordan but in such cases of the so-called "honour killings" a court usually commutes or reduces sentences, particularly if the victim's family urges leniency.
........................
And, in such cases, the "victim's family" is also the murderer's family—convenient, no?
I agree w/ PMK above. We have enough problems w/ Infidels being slaughtered by Muslims both in the Islamic world as well as the West, and can't afford to bother about Muslims (be it women, gays, transvestites, Shias, Ahmadiyas, Bahai, et al) being killed by fellow Muslims. It's okay to showcase them as an illustration of why we say that Muslims are savages, but beyond that, it's a case of misplaced priorities to show any more sympathy for them than for non-Muslim victims of Muslims, either in places like Pakistan or Egypt, or here in the West itself.
Infidel Pride, I'll see you, and raise you: it's in fact a case of misplaced priorities to show the same degree of sympathy for Muslim victims of honor killings as for non-Muslim victims of Muslims.
We must steel ourselves and focus all our energies on protecting our own.
Just for purposes of comparison - a story from the Lands of the Infidels.
Back in the 1970s, I was a teenager and my dad worked as a station hand and we (my parents and my siblings) all lived out in the bush on a huge cattle station. We got to know the families on neighbouring stations. One of those families was a very typical Irish-Australian Catholic family - about six kids, from teenagers to little'uns. They were practising Catholics, insofar as they used to attend Mass once a month, when it was the Catholics' turn to use the ecumenical church building in the nearest town. The eldest daughter, who was about 15 or 16, got pregnant to a young man - a jackaroo on one of the local stations - who could most accurately be described as a 'cad'.
So...what happened?
Nobody got killed.
Nothing whatever happened to Pregnant Daughter: all was forgiven, she had the baby, and it was reared in the bosom of the family. A grandchild, however acquired, is a grandchild is a grandchild. (Pregnant Girl's mother, as it happened, was expecting baby # seven at around the same time; so the babies, born within a short time of each other, were brought up together).
There was no shotgun wedding, as the cad who had fathered the baby was deemed by the girl's family and all their friends to be highly unsuitable and a total waste of time.
Instead, Mr Cad was visited by a squad consisting of Pregnant Girl's Uncle, Pregnant Girl's Father, and reinforcements including my own father. Mr Cad was told in no uncertain terms to Get Lost, Or Else.... (I do not know whether devices normally used for emasculating young bulls, may have been waved under his nose). Anyway, he was last heard of in a cloud of dust, heading for Western Australia.
And that was the end of the affair: undesirable young man chased out of town, while Girl In Trouble was forgiven and embraced by her family and her baby cheerfully taken on the strength.
I think we Infidels handle this sort of stuff so much more sensibly and humanely than the Mohammedans.
Apologist denials about honor killing remind me of the semantic sleight-of-hand played in other lines like "the Quran does not mention 'Holy War.'" Indeed, the Quran doesn't literally refer to Holy War, but does mention "qital in the way of Allah"--which means essentially the same thing as Holy War.
Islam incorporated elements of pre-Islamic Bedouin Arab culture, with some modifications and accommodations, such as of the hajj pilgrimage. Another such element is the pre-Islamic Bedouin Arab concept of ird, or female honor (i.e., chastity), remains among Arab Muslims, and as Robert notes, is accommodated in Islamic law in leniency in the penalties for honor killing.
The Sira of Ibn Ishaq and the sahih hadiths indicate that Muhammad forced the Jews to carry out stoning to death for adultery--a punishment which these same Muslim sources indicate that the Jews themselves did not implement. The sahih hadiths and the Quran also require harsh punishment, such as flogging (100 stripes--which can incidentally cause death), for premarital sex of free Muslims. Note that most honor killings happen to involve punishment for alleged premarital sex, usually with the female being punished. Honor killings can also involve punishment of a Muslim female who has allegedly had a relationship with a non-Muslim male--a penalty perfectly consistent with the death penalty in sharia for that type of relationship. In the hands of overzealous interpreters, the charges for these alleged sexual improprieties can be trumped up even further with the broad, loose concept of corruption on earth (Quran 5:32-5:33), for which countries such as Iran and Saudi Arabia have the death penalty.
So while the Quran and Hadith do not literally mention honor killings, there are the harsh penalties, up to and including the death penalty, for adultery, premarital sex, and sexual relations between a non-Muslim man and a Muslim woman. (Note that in Islam commission of these sins results in the perpetrator being deemed "unclean," impure, filthy--not unlike the Arab Bedouin notion of violating honor/chastity (ird, for the female). Notice that Islam apologists focus on dissociating the word "honor" from these types of killings and harsh punishments. Seldom do they condemn essentially the same punishments administered officially under the rubric of sharia.
Here's an interesting article on honor killing
http://www.meforum.org/50/honor-murders-why-the-perps-get-off-easy
Salam,
A bit of a disaster all round.
He thinks his daughter's life is in danger and immediately takes her to hospital for the tummy pains.
Can you imagine the shock and horror to the father, when the doctor said "praise be to Allah SWT, your daughter is 6 months pregnant, let me congratulate her husband".
With sweat pouring down his brow, the father probably said..."I'll convey your congratulations on....knowing full well that she is not married".
Can you imagine how the spiritual stability and balance of the father's household will have changed. In the car he is thinking "What am I going to tell her mother?", how can I save us all from this nightmare living in her belly.
Folks, I can you tell you hand on heart, that this man loves her daughter very much, ...but not the baby....not the baby.
He is angry, wants to to save his daughter ...but understandbly remove the baby. Rather than taking her to hospital to have the foreign object removed by experts, he undertook the procedure himself....but being no expert he managed to kill his daughter in the process.
A very sad life experience indeed, Allah SWT have mercy on them all.
It is understandable, Muslims think unborn babies are
"foreign objects".....
If Muslims in Muslim lands want to kill their own, should we waste our energy on them?
If they can justify such barbarism are they worth our time?
Actually, yes. For if the repression of women stops, Islam breaks. It can't survive in a society of free women.
And we all carry swords with us when we go to the doctor, for just such eventualities! You never know when a little family slaughter will be called for.
Yommie - Are you mentally ill?
Or do you believe in a savage belief 7th century belief system in the 21st century?
Maybe it's the same thing.
Anyway, we should all pray that you don't have any female children.
Unbelievable.
As I said on another thread, Islam is a sickness, with Muslims as it's victims.
This "father," if you can call him that, is a sick, twisted, psychopath. What did that to him? Islam.
And, Yom, I see you are infected with the plague of Islam as well, as you sympathize with the murderer. You're very sick, Yom, you need help. I recommend you renounce your poisonous belief system, thereby transforming yourself into a spiritually healthy and moral adult.
Islam is a malevolent virus like the Swine flu virus, and it needs to be eradicated. It's been infecting innocent
people for 1400 years now. And Yom, you are one of them.
"tanstaafl" above asked if you were mentally ill? Yes, you are. And here's what has caused you to be mentally impaired: Islam. Islam. Islam.
"Fight then against them till strife be at an end, and the religion be all of it Allah's." - Qur'an 8:40
The above is an example of the violence, hate, and mass-murder that "allah" (i.e. the Warlord Con Man) commands and expects from it's followers.
Jesus, of course, never said anything remotely similar.
In her book, "A God Who Hates," Wafa Sultan talks about the importance of "raiding" in Arabian culture. The Bedouin tribes constantly "raided" each other as nothing grew in the desert, water was scarce, and so "raiding" from other tribes was their only means of survival. She says:
"Open any book about the Prophet Muhammed in Arabic and the first thing you will read about are the Prophet's many raiding expeditions." She describes the objective of these raids as "seizure and distribution of booty," and identifies Islam as attempting to justify these raids as "death in God's cause," because, of course, many deaths occurred during raids. Sultan doesn't believe for one second that there's an "Allah" - she knows that "Allah" is simply the Warlord's tool for declaring himself a "Prophet" and for obtaining whatever material goods he wanted. Of course the Warlord gives Allah's seal-of-approval on raids, as Allah gets 1/5 of the booty, along with his Messenger. Good God, what a total scam!
Anyway, concerning the act of "raiding," Sultan considers it to still be an essential mindset of the Muslim today. She provides an example of an Arab neighbor of her's when she first came to the U.S. (California). They went to a Von's supermarket. There, the (female) Arab neighbor began poking holes in the cream and milk cartoons, in bags of potato chips and in boxes of spaghetti, rendering the food unsaleable. Wafa was shocked and asked her Arab friend what the heck she was doing, to which Arab friend replied:
"May God curse them. They stole our land! ...I'm trying to hurt them! You're still new here. Don't you know the owner's Jewish?"
That was over 15 years ago. Sultan is convinced that nothing will ever change the "raiding" mentality of the Moslem.
People - you must order her book from amazon or go to Barnes & Noble.
Darcy , Tanstaafl,
No I am not mentally sick.
The real crime that the father did was to try and remove that "baby" away from his daughter himself....and not show enough patience to have it removed at the hospital.
Parents spend a lifetime working, collecting, saving and investing in their children.
In cricket you are out "leg before Wicket" and the umpire sends you back never to bat again in that innings.
In Islam you are out "love before Wedding" just because the woman wants 5 to 15 minutes of love before marriage pleasure.
In many cases it is the foetus that is sent packing, in others it is the mother as well (which is unfortunate...particularily for her).
The standards in the West are now so bad, that your own offspring take advantage...disgustingly so....an ideal way to get your flat from teh councils I hear.
Girls have to be disciplined and behave, you are the ones who have lost all sense of morality.
Darcy , Tanstaafl,
No I am not mentally sick.
The real crime that the father did was to try and remove that "baby" away from his daughter himself....and not show enough patience to have it removed at the hospital.
Parents spend a lifetime working, collecting, saving and investing in their children.
In cricket you are out "leg before Wicket" and the umpire sends you back never to bat again in that innings.
In Islam you are out "love before Wedding" just because the woman wants 5 to 15 minutes of love before marriage pleasure.
In many cases it is the foetus that is sent packing, in others it is the mother as well (which is unfortunate...particularily for her).
The standards in the West are now so bad, that your own offspring take advantage...disgustingly so....an ideal way to get your flat from teh councils I hear.
Girls have to be disciplined and behave, you are the ones who have lost all sense of morality.
"May God curse them. They stole our land! ...I'm trying to hurt them! You're still new here. Don't you know the owner's Jewish?"
And how did the Muslims get that land? Yet another Islamic raid. All Islamic land was booty from a jihad. What happens when the religion you follow is totally different from the reality of the 20th century?
Islam is still stuck in the past and shows no sign of "Reformation".
Henrik in his comment above sorely underestimates the fanaticism that grips the viscera of Muslims, and he does this through romanticizing women: thinking that Muslim women are for the most part victims who would gladly embrace us as soon as we free them from Muslim males. In fact, most indications are that the Muslim women are just as fanatical as the men, with exceptions that prove the rule. (How many times do we learn of the details of honor killings, where mothers, aunts and sisters are part of the hunting down of the victim? How many times have we learned that the women of the family actively collude in the deadly ostracization of family members who apostasize? How many times have we learned of masses of Muslims -- which include women, segregated in sections apart from the men of course, but still present, cheering with cries of Allahu Akbar such grotesque demonstrations of fanaticism as the soccer-stadium executions of their fellow women in Afghanistan; or even, as Oriana Fallaci herself witnessed in Bangladesh in the 1970s, a collective trampling over the bodies of freshly executed "traitors" in order to turn those bodies into bloody mush...?)
In fact all Muslims are "victims" of Islam -- but their psychopathology turns their own victimization into a fanaticism by which, in effect, they victimize themselves. And in the process, they threaten us lethally. The phenomenon of "Stockholm syndrome" indicates that a person who ostensibly resembles a victim nevertheless turns that victimhood into an identification with, and support of, her abusers. What Patti Hearst exemplified we can be confident pertains much more profoundly and viscerally with most Muslim women. Our #1 priority is our own safety. We should not be futzing around with theories based on sentimentalization and misplaced ethical pangs for women and children in Islam. We have more important things to do: protecting ourselves.
Thanks for the link.
Yom; the only difference between you and a bag of filthy, smelly shit... is the bag.
"For if the repression of women stops, Islam breaks. It can't survive in a society of free women."
Henrik,
But who is going to stop the repression of women in Muslim lands? We can't do it. If all the women in those lands objected to what Islam teaches then surely they could raise their sons to aim for something else. They don't.
We can't keep holding them up as victims. At some point, all Muslims need to accept responsibility for what they practice. If they insist on the right to murder those who leave the faith and repress those who refuse to convert then there is only one peaceful thing for the West to do: shun them, ostracize them, keep them out of OUR lands, as they insist we stay out of THEIRS.
"For if the repression of women stops, Islam breaks. It can't survive in a society of free women."
Henrik,
But who is going to stop the repression of women in Muslim lands? We can't do it. If all the women in those lands objected to what Islam teaches then surely they could raise their sons to aim for something else. They don't.
We can't keep holding them up as victims. At some point, all Muslims need to accept responsibility for what they practice. If they insist on the right to murder those who leave the faith and repress those who refuse to convert then there is only one peaceful thing for the West to do: shun them, ostracize them, keep them out of OUR lands, as they insist we stay out of THEIRS.
Yom; the only difference between you and a bag of filthy, smelly shit... is the bag.
You heard it here first!
"Girls have to be disciplined and behave, you are the ones who have lost all sense of morality."
-from our Muslim lurker, Yommie.
What "sense of morality" do you possess when you advocate that teenage girls MUST have their babies aborted?
Again, this brings into question your mental state.
tanstaafl,
Only teenage girls who have babies out of wedlock.
Yom,
I appreciate you rewriting the actions of a murderous moslem scumbag to fit the romanticized islamic viewpoint. Bravo!
You need to surrender yourself the the authorities before you commit an illegal act that you feel your cult would sanction as 'just'.
You aren't mentally ill, you're just another devout moslem.
Yommie - Nobody can force another person to do what they want.
What am I saying? Everything in Islam is forced on someone who doesn't want it.
Yom,
Your Allah's demand for human sacrifice should be a clue to you that you are dealing with something very wicked.
Your ability to reason has been twisted to the extreme.
Seek immediate professional help.
Islam is still stuck in the past and shows no sign of "Reformation".
tanstaafl, I have good news and bad news for you. First the good:
There exists an extensive and powerful movement for reforming Islam.
The bad:
The name of that movement is The Muslim Brotherhood, Ikhwan.
Point is, 'reform' actually means re-forming, bringing the form back in line with the intentions of its founder. If the founder is a benevolent person like Jesus, you get positive results. If, on the other hand, Islam reverts to the example of Muhammad, bad results will follow.
'Reform', in the sense of moving from inhuman to human, can hardly be expected in Islam.
But who is going to stop the repression of women in Muslim lands?
That isn't going to be simple. It's not like we just walk in there, tell the Muslims how to behave, observe them obey, and then return in time for dinner.
Still it's worth pursuing, for doing so will cause great embarrassment amongst the clergy, the rulers and a lot of other powerful people. This is stuff to do at the diplomatic level, in newspapers and blog debates, at conferences (OSCE for example) etc. It is not hugely dramatic or expensive, but does need some highly principled persons in the right places. Just like defending freedom of expression, it's a delicate job, but one where we need people we can really trust.
Unfortunately our Elite, be it the European Union or the Obama Administration, are failing us big way in this battle. Thus, *we* need to do it.
"Girls have to be disciplined and behave, you are the ones who have lost all sense of morality." - Yom the Mohammedan
Yes, you're mentally sick, Yom.
YOU need to be "disciplined and behave," you immoral male Mohammedan. You woman-hater, you Misogynist pos.
Sick, sick, sick, Yom the Mohammedan. You pitiful male Mohammedan.
Your Allah's demand for human sacrifice should be a clue to you that you are dealing with something very wicked.
Good point. Worth repeating.
"You aren't mentally ill, you're just another devout Moslem."
-- Question _Everything
They are the same. "Mentally ill = Moslem."
Mohamet their Psychopath Warlord saw to that.
Poor deluded single-digit IQ Yom. Which is the result of Islam.
Yom, watching the news from Islamic lands, I wonder about this statement from you:
Girls have to be disciplined and behave, you are the ones who have lost all sense of morality.
From what I see in the news - and this goes for all Islamic countries - it really is the men who need to be disciplined and behave, as they have lost all sense of morality.
You sure you didn't accidently make a gender mistake here?
"In Islam you are out "love before Wedding" just because the woman wants 5 to 15 minutes of love before marriage pleasure."
Hey, it takes TWO to tango, shit 4 brains.
"From what I see in the news - and this goes for all Islamic countries - it really is the men who need to be disciplined and behave, as they have lost all sense of morality." -- Henrik
Exactly.
People - You must get Wafa Sultan's book and read about what male Mohammedans do to female Mohammedans. Her own Grandfather horribly mistreated her Grandmother - and she hates him for it.
Not to mention the many examples of incest and rape. Mohammedan fathers incesting their daughters, raping them, with no consequences whatsoever. The males KNOW that in their Woman-Hating Islamic culture the females have no redress whatsoever. If the females complain, they must be killed - as in a "shame" society, which is Islam, the females are responsible for all crimes committed against them. Evil. Evil, Islamic societies, in which men RULE. Females have no rights whatsoever.
You see Yom, here? He is an example of this.
In Wafa Sultan's book, even though SHE was the doctor in a Syrian town, her Muslim patients called HER HUSBAND "Doctor," even though he wasn't one. Dr. Sultan they called "Wafa."
There is no society more female-hating than Islamic society.
Male Mohammedans get away with incest and rape of their daughters because Islamic society blames females for EVERYTHING. There is no sicker, misogynist, society than Moslem society.
As Dr. Sultan says in her book, "It is a sick society." In which females are the legal property of males, just like the household furnishings, and in which males can do anything they like to females, with no consequences whatsoever.
No consequences whatsoever.
Just how Yom likes it! Right, Yom?! You sick, twisted, misogynist mentally-ill Moslem male. Just like your sick, twisted, psychopath colleagues Omar Ahmad, Dougie Hooper, Khaleel Mohammed, Anjem Choudary and BILLIONS MORE.
Only psychopaths are drawn to Islam. The pathology invented by psychopath Warlord Muhammed.