Fiend, er, Friend and Ally Update. "Go to jail or join jihad against India: ISI tells surrendered Taliban," by Vishwa Mohan for the Times News Network, October 7 (thanks to all who sent this in):
NEW DELHI: In a new shift in tactics, Pakistan is planning to push as many as 60 "surrendered" Taliban into Jammu and Kashmir to become part of the "jihad" against India. The ISI is said to have offered the extremists the option of either going to jail or crossing the Line of Control.
The "jail or jihad" option offered to the Taliban seems a useful diversion for ISI. The Pakistan military establishment has had to fight the Taliban, once its close allies in Afghanistan, but is looking to turn the situation to its advantage.
Apprehensions in Indian security circles that the crackdown by the Pakistan army on Taliban -- seen as a last resort after the jihadis turned their guns on the Pakistani state -- could mean trouble in Kashmir are being proved correct. Not only have infiltration attempts by regular jihadi outfits like Lashkar-e-Taiba gone up, the presence of Taliban poses a new threat.
Highly placed sources said BSF and the Army had been alerted about the developments after intelligence intercepted talk about infiltration bids in the next 15 to 20 days.
"Although the Taliban is yet to successfully infiltrate into India, the coming days will pose a challenge as their attempts to sneak in are expected before the onset of winter," said a senior official. The infiltration is closely controlled and monitored by the ISI and Pakistan army which is often involved in the crossings.
The issue cropped up as a major security concern during the two-day visit to Srinagar by a high-powered central team led by cabinet secretary K M Chandrashekhar and comprising home secretary G K Pillai, defence secretary Pradeep Kumar and other senior officials.
Top security and intelligence officials deliberated over the move by state actors in Pakistan to utilize the Taliban for their objectives in Kashmir. Taking note of the assessment, officials are learnt to have unequivocally noted during the reviews in Srinagar that there was no change in Pakistan's support to terror groups post 26/11 Mumbai terror attacks.
The Taliban, who recently fought against Pakistan army in Swat Valley and other areas along the Pak-Afghan border, were well trained and battle-hardened. They could put their experience of fighting US troops to use in Kashmir.
Apart from the group of 60, there are nearly 250 to 300 jihadis -- armed with sophisticated weapons, Thuraya satellite phones and Indian mobile SIM cards -- poised at launch pads along LoC. This feeds into the view that violence could escalate in J&K in the winter months.
The meeting in Srinagar, attended by senior Army and paramilitary personnel, also took note of repeated use of Pakistani Air Force helicopters to evacuate injured infiltrators along the LoC and as many as 42 terror camps in PoK and Pakistan.
"Such incidents (like use of choppers) clearly show the involvement of Pakistani authorities in facilitating infiltration. Though our forces are fully alert to thwart Pakistani designs, the next 15-20 days are quite crucial as this is the period when they will do everything to infiltrate as many terrorists as possible," said a senior official. That is when winter will begin to set in.
Get out of jail free card.
I'll take three mosques on Marvin Gardens.
Roll the dice, move the little silver camel...
BOOM!
The ISI is making an obvious move, not some brilliant ploy to impress anyone. Under normal conditions it'd be suicidal to pull this stunt; but as is, in a world of cowardice and appeasement of Islam at all costs, it's still just ordinary. These are not sophisticated people.
For the ISI that's not really a problem: they wage war against Obama and company. That's a problem for us: the jihadis will turn against us again in short order, and we have Obama as our Commander-in-Chief. I find that unhappy. If plodders like the ISI can out-fox our C-in-C, what hope do we have to survive?
I like to think we have supreme good hope, so long as we rely on our native intelligence and our own will to survive, regardless of what our nations' leaders would have us do, i.e. lie down and die.
Chinese Communists are brutal; Russian gangsters are ruthless; and Americans are sorry for institutionalizing slavery until 150 years ago. Something isn't adding up here. We're engaged in a war with idiots and plodders, and we're giving them billions? I think we should be talking to Communists and gangsters instead of our congress-persons.
Let's think about a different kind of choice that might be offered.
Let's start asking our GIs, our Tommies, our Aussie diggers, which they would rather be doing - herding murderous treacherous kilkenny cats in the hellpits of sharia-addled jihad-wracked Afghanistan, and getting stabbed in the back or grenaded in their tents or shot for their pains, by those very Afghan 'soldiers' and 'policemen' with whom they are supposedly 'partners'...or helping cheerful, brave, ferocious and far more trustworthy Indian Hindu and Sikh warriors to defend the borders of beautiful Mother India tooth and nail against the jihad and even perhaps - when the politicians in India and the rest of dar al Harb *really* get their heads straight - evict the vandalistic, sullen, treacherous Mohammedan hordes right out of Kashmir and West Bengal?
Similar choice...with whom would you, O GI or Aussie Digger or Tommie or Canuck or other Western soldier, rather go on patrol? A sturdy Catholic Filipino soldier with whom you can share a convivial beer and delicious pork adobo after you've been thrashing through the jungle helping him obliterate the jihad gangsters who've been terrorising Filipino Catholic townsfolk and poor farmers... or a treacherous slippery Mohammedan Iraqi or Afghan who will not just kill *you* if you so much as look sideways at his sister, but will murder his *sister* on the mere sayso of someone who said she was looking sideways at *you*?
It is time to assist India with this problem.
I came to a conclusion a long time ago that as far as the US and Europeans are concerned, Indian pagans, with their myriads of Gods and Goddesses, can go to hell! US has absolutely no regard for an Indian child who will be orphaned or whose kith and kin will be butchered by those financed by its dollars. In its totally immoral and unconditional support of Pakistan, US has been and will remain the most vindictive enemy of India, especially now that it has set sails towards Mecca and wants to address the problems of the muslim world – and nothing bothers that world more than the Jews and Hindus.
Everybody was cock-a-hoop about the story of the Indian and US space agencies co-operation on their recent joint lunar mission. The reality is rather different. US administration fought tooth and nail to scupper the deal and for years has prevented India from obtaining modern technology it needs to make progress.
I don't often quote the (al-)BBC, but if Mr Spencer will permit me, I'd like people to read this article as it will open the eyes of many who are under the mistaken belief that US only has good intentions for India:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8281480.stm
As much as it hurts me to say this, for India there is no difference between Pakistan and its uber friend and financier US – they are equally hell bent on seeing Indians killed.
I think you need to recall why the United States never had much of a relationship with India. The Soviet Union was your patron for decades, and from Nehru on the Indian government were very hostile towards the United States. You may wish to consider this before making such blanket comments. Pakistan was the only seemingly friendly state in the region, so the United States gravitated towards it. Pakistan was playing a double game from the beginning, but India would not even do that.
This goes back to the heart of the problem:
http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/gwbush911islamispeace.htm
Under their very noses, POTUS made a case for, not the victims of 9/11, but the attackers. Now, Pakistan, from where, KSM, the master-mind of 9/11 came from, enjoys 1.5 bil of US tax dollars, annually.
As for Saudi Arabia, everybody saw this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WlqW6UCeaY&feature=related
For 9/11 victims and families, NOTHING!
@Worry01
I recall it very well, actually.
Yeah, and look how many suicide bombers India is sending your way, look how many US flags the nasty Hindus are burning on Indian streets. For all its "friendship" with USSR, India did not matter a jot to the US foreign policy nor (more importantly) to innocent US lives. This is a tired and bankrupt excuse trotted out by the lazy and the imbecile.
And what "benefits" US is reaping for its friendship with Pakistan? How much are you paying for this friendship, exactly – what $12billion at the last count? Pakistan is the tail that wags the US dog – it is buying Pakistani friendship that others may call paying a ransom. US cannot see past its nose, and sadly people in far away countries are dying because of this deadly myopia. In Pakistan, US foreign policy has been a litany of disasters, paid for by the blood of Indian children. You can't see your friends from your enemies.
Now go and make friends with Hamas, Hezbolla and extend the hands of friendship to Iran, I can't wait to see that turns out!
@Worry01
I recall it very well, actually.
Yeah, and look how many suicide bombers India is sending your way, look how many US flags the nasty Hindus are burning on Indian streets. For all its "friendship" with USSR, India did not matter a jot to the US foreign policy nor (more importantly) to innocent US lives. This is a tired and bankrupt excuse trotted out by the lazy and the imbecile.
And what "benefits" US is reaping for its friendship with Pakistan? How much are you paying for this friendship, exactly – what $12billion at the last count? Pakistan is the tail that wags the US dog – it is buying Pakistani friendship that others may call paying a ransom. US cannot see past its nose, and sadly people in far away countries are dying because of this deadly myopia. In Pakistan, US foreign policy has been a litany of disasters, paid for by the blood of Indian children. You can't see your friends from your enemies.
Now go and make friends with Hamas, Hezbolla and extend the hands of friendship to Iran, I can't wait to see that turns out!
Yeah, and look how many suicide bombers India is sending your way, look how many US flags the nasty Hindus are burning on Indian streets. For all its "friendship" with USSR, India did not matter a jot to the US foreign policy nor (more importantly) to innocent US lives. This is a tired and bankrupt excuse trotted out by the lazy and the imbecile.
And what "benefits" US is reaping for its friendship with Pakistan? How much are you paying for this friendship, exactly – what $12billion at the last count? Pakistan is the tail that wags the US dog – it is buying Pakistani friendship that others may call paying a ransom. US cannot see past its nose, and sadly people in far away countries are dying because of this deadly myopia. In Pakistan, US foreign policy has been a litany of disasters, paid for by the blood of Indians. You can't see your friends from your enemies.
Now go and make friends with Hamas, Hezbolla and extend the hands of friendship to Iran, I can't wait to see that one turns out!
"This is a tired and bankrupt excuse trotted out by the lazy and the imbecile." I was discussing the historical context of U.S.-Indian Relations, but you seem to be unable to grasp that. Also, you make some very broad generalizations about the United States seeking Indian blood, which you do not support in any way. In addition, why is India, with a vast Hindu majority, unable to handle its Islamist problems at home? Or, before it went nuclear,why was India unable to deal effectively with a country as small as Pakistan? You do in fact remind me of the Islamists in that you refuse to take a look in the mirror, and instead blame everyone else. Finally,you do you not gain friends by hectoring and insulting people.
Hermit, I think most people here will agree with you. Given a blanket choice of trusting Hindu India or Muslim Pakistan, it's a no brainer. The tilt toward Pakistan has its roots in recent Cold War history, during which time India aligned itself with the Soviet Union, and we "needed" Pakistan as a place from which to spy on the Russians. Those ideological toxins haven' yet been purged from the system, but I think the "correlation of forces" (one of the few really good concepts to have come out of Marxist-Leninist agitprop) will eventually force the West into alignment with India for our mutual self-protection. We, like you, deplore the sharp leftward tilt of the COWH (Current Occupant of the White House) toward the Muslim world, as do growing numbers of Americans who are slowing becoming aware of his cockeyed view of American and World history.
dumbledoresarmy hit the nail. Actually all commentaries are right on.
Why doesn't the Obama administration just give Pakistan another 2.5 billion in jizya so they can supply better arms for their Taliban friends in their effort to take Kashmir, which will be the stepping stone into taking India?
I think our allied troops would be much happier defending India from Islamic conquest than being on a dhimmi offensive in Afghanistan/Pakistan.
And, as worry01 stated "It is time to assist India with this problem."
The swastika, a symbol of peace, came from ancient India, the (Aryans)who occupied Central Europe more than 10,000 years ago. It was the Nazis, in the early 1900's that reversed that symbol of peace to mean just the opposite...hatred and war.
Now we are facing an even greater threat from another symbol...the star and crescent moon.
Get the troops out of Afghanistan and Iraq and defend India, defend Australia, Israel and Europe and, greatest of all, defend North America from Obama and his designs of conquest.
"Or, before it went nuclear,why was India unable to deal effectively with a country as small as Pakistan?"
Because every time India tries to do that it is the U.S.A. who is in Pakistan's corner and puts diplomatic pressure and intimidation on India to cease. Just one example (there are many more): Nixon sent the nuclear aircraft carrier USS Enterprise to the bay of bengal in 1971 (during the bangladesh liberation war) to intimidate the Indian government just when India was whacking the pakistanis on all fronts.
Hermit is right. For decades now the U.S.A (both under republican AND democratic governments) have been supporting Pakistan diplomatically, financially and militarilly. Pakistan has used that aid (or part of that aid) in it's efforts to destabalise India and kill as many Indian military personal and civilians as possible. For those deaths U.S. foreign policy is partly responsible.
U.S. politicians and policymakers are to dumb to see their friends from their enemies.
Infact the U.S. under Bush only normalised the relations between India and the U.S. because they saw that the sanctions imposed under Clinton did not do shit (infact India grew economically even with the sanctions in place) and the Americans needed the big market India (potentialy) has to export their goods and because the Americans want India to function as a counterweight against China.
So you see that the U.S. did not normalise relations to be sincere friends with India no they normalised relations because they wanted something fom India. The U.S. doesn't want sincere friends and allies, they want pet dogs like Brittain under Tony Blair (Bush's little bitch) whom they can boss and order around. Well i am sorry to dissapoint you guys but India never wanted that role (that's why it was one of the leaders of the non-alligned movement) and it still does not want it
"Finally,you do you not gain friends by hectoring and insulting people."
India doesn't need 'friends' who give it's enemies money, arms and diplomatic support. And what do you call insulting?? What hermit wrote was true (however hard and brutal he may have written it), if you can't handle it stay out of the kitchen
Maybe, a distinction could be made between those of various nationalities posting here, and the governments, both past and present, who had their dhimmi heads up their collective butts.
We could start in agreement there. Other than the U.S., India is the most tolerant nation on earth and will become a true ally. What we can all do is make sure our human rights' "house" is clean, so other free nations can join with each of our nation with a clean conscience to help fight this Islamist totalitarian scourge.
looking at history it is obvious that no war was ever won with the winner sticking to and upholding the human rights for 100%. I don't think that fact will change in the future. Wars are bloody and brutal, it is inevitable that human rights will be violated (by both the winners and losers). The only difference will perhaps be the level of violation.
Yes, but leftists and peaceniks will use the "but they have a caste system, they oppress women, etc. etc." garbage.
I'm not saying everyone needs to be perfect to be allies. I'm definitely saying I do not consider China an ally.
But my main point is that most people would agree with hermit and your policy points. But blasting American posters with accusations of "supporting" Pakistan couldn't be further from the truth. I'd like to turn it into an uninhabited garden.
It is extremely unfortunate in many respects, the US and the UK bear the burden of responsibility for the empowering of the Pakistani ISI. Prior to 1979, one could describe their activities as limited and although the legacy of British training was evident in the upper ranks, the passage of time ensured that more militant Muslims joined the force. In some respects, it was a reaction against British colonialism and imperial rule and following the wars with India, to use another thesaurus, that nation became the "main adversary."
When the USSR decided to intervene in the affairs of Afghanistan, I well remember briefings which talked about new states being created in the aftermath; states that would offer warm water port facilities for the Soviet Navy. When the West in its wisdom decided to counter the Soviet incursion, with more than a little tacit support from Beijing, the ISI became extremely active moving among the tribal groupings in Afghanistan and Pakistan and finding the resistance fighters - tribal warlords and the like who were prepared to fight against 20th century weaponry. The conduit to the mujahedin was the ISI but it should not be forgotten that the UK and US governments provided finance and training. With the Soviet withdrawal, the sword that we helped create turned in our hands.
I have written elsewhere of what I refer to as the "arc of instability" and basically includes the states of Afghanistan, Bangladesh, India, Pakistan and to a lesser extent Sri Lanka. From an historical perspective they were all part of the British Raj; under control to a greater or lesser extent. Afghanistan and the northwest frontier of Pakistan were always flash points, and when Imperial Britain contested Afghanistan and the Tsarist Russians became involved, it is said that the blood of Europeans fertilized the soil. India of course is a Hindu state but the others are Muslims. The carve-up of the old British Raj after World War II, when the UK lay in ruins and an economic basket-case, became a disaster. The accumulated wisdom of those explorers, missionaries, traders, soldiers, geographers and cartographers showed quite clearly how those countries should have been divided along tribal lines. The most striking example is that of Pashtuns who travel between three countries and have kinship relationships across the artificial lines drawn on maps by mandarins in Whitehall. Furthermore, all those countries play cricket and Afghanistan recently defeated Scotland in a one-day match. I don't know whether they can bat but I'm sure they can bowl and their throws from the outfield come from long practice, throwing grenades or rocks.
While Pakistan remains at loggerheads with its traditional rival India, the latter will have no alternative but to continue to destabilize the region, when and where it can. In fact, in street language, both sides are "at it." While we focus heavily on Al Qaeda and the Taliban, we must not forget LeT, and the Pakistani Taliban - the Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan (Urdu: تحريک طالبان پاکستان) (Students' Movement of Pakistan) is closely allied to LeT and they all share the same objectives. At present, Pakistan is in real trouble and not just because of the US and UK assistance in fighting the insurgency which dangerously approached Islamabad in May this year. There have been some promising reports that the insurgents are opposed by various tribespeople but this only serves to highlight the difficulties of organizing tribes with centuries of hostility between them. While South Waziristan is currently a contested area, there are brushfire conflict throughout the region. My long-term projection is that the next major insurgency will rise in Balochistan, a province that hungers for independence.
It could be very tempting to argue that a total withdrawal, permitting them to settle their own differences would be wise counsel but we should never forget that they are part of the international Jihadist struggle. The thought that there may well be access by terrorists to Pakistani nuclear weapons is a matter for extreme concern. Despite the placating noises emanating from Washington, I for one, am not particularly sanguine about the future. No Pakistani government will dismantle the ISI or forbid it from conducting operations against India. Whether the West should be looking for client states in the area is something of a moot point. Certainly, India needs assistance but reading some of the extreme Hindu nationalist material is practically as sickening as reading about Taliban atrocities. In the more backward regions, Indians and Pakistanis alike persecute Christians and that includes murder and ritual burning to death.
Beam me up, Mr Spencer, what with the jihad in West, problems in the Middle East and the new Nobel peace prize winner reaching out for all and sundry, but connecting with few, I feel that distinct need for sanctuary. Rather regrettably, Mars is out of the question so we must face the enemy and do what has to be done. Now find a politician to listen to you!