In "Tingbjerg: one neighborhood's nightmare" at Human Rights Service, October 26, Bruce Bawer gives a glimpse of the kind of thing that will be happening in the United States before too long, unless there is some drastic change in numerous policies:
Few people outside of Denmark have heard of Tingbjerg. It's a residential neighborhood in northwestern Copenhagen. About 6500 people live there, down from about 10,000 in the 1970s. Today the great majority of those residents are Muslims. As the neighborhood has become increasingly Muslim, it's also been increasingly plagued by gang violence, burglaries, car-burnings, vandalism, and other offenses. Over the years, the members of Tingbjerg's non-Muslim minority have come to feel increasingly vulnerable and ill at ease in their community. Many have moved out.Among the latter is Ulrich Vogel. He is German and gay - and until recently he also happened to be the pastor at Tingbjerg Church. But now, after seventeen years in that position, he's fled - moved out of the church residence, gone underground, taken sick leave, and begun psychological treatment.
Why? Because in recent years Vogel has been the repeated target of crime and harassment by local Muslims. Vogel refused to discuss his situation with Uwe Max Jensen, who reported on the story for sappho.dk on October 6. But Jensen found police reports in local newspapers that describe acts of vandalism at the church on March 26 and August 5 of this year and a break-in at the church residence on August 16. The latter crime involved the destruction and robbery of much of Vogel's personal property, including his computer. And this is apparently only the tip of the iceberg: a member of the church congregation told Jensen that the residence has been broken into "countless" times.
In any case, Vogel has given up. And so, apparently, has the church council: instead of opening up a search for a substitute pastor who's willing to live in the church residence at Tingbjerg, they've decided to sell it.
For days, the rumor circulated that Vogel was tormented by the young Muslims because he's gay. Then, on October 17, Lea Holtze and Jannie Iwankow Søgaard of Kristeligt Dagblad reported that Vogel had broken his silence in order to deny that rumor. No, he insisted: he was tormented not because he's gay but because he's a pastor, and thus "a picture of an institution and a normality that is not welcomed by this group of young people." Vogel also noted, truthfully enough, that he was hardly the only person in the neighborhood who had been victimized by local youth.
"It's a whole neighborhood that's been taken hostage," Vogel said of Tingbjerg, complaining that "one is left to fend for oneself" there because "the police don't do enough." The problems, he said, can't be dismissed as ordinary teenage hijinks: "It feels like pure malice." The pastor recalled that last March, after local youths threw rocks at buses, resulting in a disruption of the public transport system, he spoke out in a local newspaper and on the TV news about the neighborhood's ordeal - an action which, he suggests, may help explain why he appears to have been singled out for repeated victimization....
Uh-oh, quoting the article:
Western Europe is full of neighborhoods that are at various stages of the process that Tingbjerg is now going through – a process that may be fairly described as a gradual shift of power whereby these areas end up being Muslim-controlled enclaves that are no-go zones for non-Muslims (even those, like Vogel, who are there to serve the community). As time goes by, more and more European neighborhoods are slipping quietly into the first stage of this process – and are eventually reaching the point at which, yes, even cops and firefighters don’t dare show up unless they’re accompanied by a sizable contingent of armed and armored backup.
It appears that France, with it's government-listed 751 No-Go Areas, will be shortly joined by other EU countries:
http://i.ville.gouv.fr/divbib/doc/chercherZUS.htm
Europe's "rose-colored glasses" approach to immigration is coming back hard to bite them in the butt. Thousands of years of culture, civilization, art, music, etc. will be gone within a few decades unless drastic action is taken immediately.
Jew Lover
While this issue touches a nerve on many a front, the bottom line is that, for Muslims of this area, it's a "two-fer." The chance to intimidate a local pastor is one thing; the fact that he is a gay man is icing on the proverbial cake.
In an effort not to make this become a firestorm about whether or not it's Biblical for a man to engage in homosexuality, let alone shepherd a flock of believers and inform their consciences that upending the Biblical mandate against such backwardness is fine with the Almighty (whoops...just did it anyway)...
...I think our real focus needs to continue to be how best to love and serve our neighbor. Does this mean that we must sign off on everything that our neighbor happens to espouse? Of course not; this assumes that their exist no tangible differences between things as pedestrian as tastes in food to those containing more explicit gravity, i.e. the nature and will of God.
But loving one's neighbor surely can't include firebombing, intimidating, and slandering those with whom we disagree, even vehemently and passionately. As such, I'm not about to stroll down to my local mosque and begin hurling epithets along with my rocks in an effort to harass and intimidate them.
Maybe that's yet another substantial difference (one of many) between what flows from the heart of our respective overseers: I can't recount the last time that a sermon that I sat through caused me to get all geeked-out with rage and go smash stuff because someone or something was labeled as directly responsible for holding me down, and that I ought to subsequently confront it with any means at my disposal.
Eurabia, indeed.
The religion of peace marches on.
Yesterday in Jihad Watch there was a piece that said the EU was going to consider speech that was anti-muslim or anti-homosexual to be hate speech.
If that law passes, how would you report this news? If you interview church members, they'd say that the muslims in their neighborhood were causing problems (and violate the hate speech law). If you interview muslims in the neighborhood, they'd say they don't want the homosexuals around (and violate hate speech law).
I guess the only way out would be to ignore it and hope it goes away. Eurabia indeed.
Further into his article Bawer mentions how bad things have become in Malmo and Bradford, often described as virtual "no-go" areas for non-Muslims, especially for police and fire services.
Reporting on this needs care. There are no doubt occasions when this will be the case, but not always.
I visited the infamous Rosengaard suburb of Malmo on three separate occasions in early September, walking through it, around it, shopped in a Muslim food store which was part of one of the the many large apartment blocks - no problems. I also visited the mosque and attached Muslim school, and was even granted an interview with one of the teaching staff. No problems. Within 20 minutes of first wandering along Ramels Vag I saw a police car talking a leisurely tour as well.
So, yes, care is needed when reporting on this issue.
Further into his article Bawer mentions how bad things have become in Malmo and Bradford, often described as virtual "no-go" areas for non-Muslims, especially for police and fire services.
Reporting on this needs care. There are no doubt occasions when this will be the case, but not always.
I visited the infamous Rosengaard suburb of Malmo on three separate occasions in early September, walking through it, around it, shopped in a Muslim food store which was part of one of the the many large apartment blocks - no problems. I also visited the mosque and attached Muslim school, and was even granted an interview with one of the teaching staff. No problems. Within 20 minutes of first wandering along Ramels Vag I saw a police car talking a leisurely tour as well.
So, yes, care is needed when reporting on this issue.
Further into his article Bawer mentions how bad things have become in Malmo and Bradford, often described as virtual "no-go" areas for non-Muslims, especially for police and fire services.
Reporting on this situation needs care. There are no doubt occasions when this will be the case, but not always.
I visited the infamous Rosengaard suburb of Malmo on three separate occasions in early September, walking through it, around it, shopped in a Muslim food store which was part of one of the the many large apartment blocks - no problems. I also visited the mosque and attached Muslim school, and was even granted an interview with one of the teaching staff. No problems. Within 20 minutes of first wandering along Ramels Vag I saw a police car talking a leisurely tour as well.
So, yes, care is needed when reporting on this issue.
Among the latter is Ulrich Vogel. He is German and gay - and until recently he also happened to be the pastor at Tingbjerg Church. But now, after seventeen years in that position, he's fled.
Under EU rules I now have to be careful what I say; but had this parish had a minister who had not been subverted to PC'ism and cultural relativism, that nourished his homosexuality. Who understood the sanctity of life as manifested through co-joining of man and women to beget children, then maybe this might not have happened.
Bruce Bawer does not care about the community, he cares about gay's and the homosexual lifestyle. I say, had Tjinberg had a minister who was not a poof, then maybe he could have inspired some of the men to fight back to preserve their heritage. The current minister could not do this because he was a weak role model to the individuals that were necessary to preserve Tjinberg.
Bruce Bawer wants his cake and eat it too; he cant spread his gay rights poison and then sound surprised when the PC heaven he imagined Europe is, vanishes before his very eyes. Bawer is a part of the problem, I am inclined to sit back and watch the Mohammedans rape and pillage across the west, just so I can sit back and watch the smug expressions that people like Bawer and all the multicult, diversity enforcing scumbags have been wearing for the last 20 years vanish from their faces.
Ernie,
"If that law passes, how would you report this news?"
I think you meant:
"If that law passes, how would we skew this news?"
or
"If that law passes, how can we demonize our targeted minorities with this news?"
or
"If that law passes, how can we employ J. Groebbels to report this news?"
Peace
Abdullah
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMbbg0k4Xeo&feature=related
What is the difference whether he was persecuted for being gay or for being a pastor?
The point is he isn't Muslim and he is being harassed by Muslims. And when are the European governments going to start dealing with these people for the CRIMINAL acts they commit????
Among the latter is Ulrich Vogel. He is German and gay - and until recently he also happened to be the pastor at Tingbjerg Church. But now, after seventeen years in that position, he's fled.
Under EU rules I now have to be careful what I say; but had this parish had a minister who had not been subverted to PC'ism and cultural relativism, that nourished his homosexuality. Who understood the sanctity of life as manifested through co-joining of man and women to beget children, then maybe this might not have happened.
Bruce Bawer does not care about the community, he cares about gay's and the homosexual lifestyle. I say, had Tjinberg had a minister who was not a poof, then maybe he could have inspired some of the men to fight back to preserve their heritage. The current minister could not do this because he was a weak role model to the individuals that were necessary to preserve Tjinberg.
Bruce Bawer wants his cake and eat it too; he cant spread his gay rights poison and then sound surprised when the PC heaven he imagined Europe is, vanishes before his very eyes. Bawer is a part of the problem, I am inclined to sit back and watch the Mohammedans rape and pillage across the west, just so I can sit back and watch the smug expressions that people like Bawer and all the multicult, diversity enforcing scumbags have been wearing for the last 20 years vanish from their faces.
Mahoundian self-hating hypocrisy on homosexuality never ceases to sicken me. I'll bet those mahoundian scumbags which (not who) harassed pastor Vogel would never find their "prison sex" sessions anything over which they should harass each other.
km--you are right. It sound as if part of the rot in this community is in precisely the institution that should have nurtured its health. Paul, in Romans One, identifies homosexuality among the fruits of idolatry.
km and kepha -- Christianity is not about robbing and pillaging PC types or homosexuals.
Also, whatever you may think about Bawer's homosexuality, if you read his book While Europe Slept, How Radical Islam Is Destroying the West from Within, you will see that he has been hugely -- hugely -- helpful to the anti-Islam resistance in the West.
km, recall that what Islamic supremacism counts on is creating division among non-Muslims, including between Right and Left. Your last comments support that effort to divide non-Muslims. Non-Muslims need wherever possible to put aside their divisions and band together -- not wish disaster on each other. km, you make it sound as if you prefer vindictiveness to your own survival. Apparently you'd be happy to see your own Western culture raped and pillaged, just so you can see the smiles wiped off the faces of PC people. That's a misguided sentiment.
Here again is proof of Robert's hypocrisy and deceitful nature. He counteracts accusations of being racist by saying, and rightly so, that Islam is not a race and he is only highlighting the issues of Islamic theology that, apparently, motivates "Islamic terrorism". Yet he is the first to link negative stories of people to Islam solely because they originate from Muslim regions, in this case North Africa. I really doubt Islam is the motivating factor for the despicable behaviour of these youths, and I also doubt they are practicing Muslims. So how can their actions be attributed to Islam? If thats the case why not link all the Latino, Black Caribbean and White gangs to Christianity, as most of them identify themselves as Christians, come from Christian nations and also a vast majority of them commit their crimes while wearing chains with the CROSS!!!!
Division between Right and Left, politically speaking, has always been good for the country. It tends to further underscore checks and balances, for one thing.
So I am hard-pressed to fall in line with this being a strictly partisan political issue; unfortunately, it has been made one, mostly by one party in particular choosing to ignore the growing threat and pick daisies for the enemy instead. Instaed of playing the tired, old game of carrot and stick, Western ingenuity (not to mention firepower) ought to simply grow a giant, mutated carrot that we can then use to bludgeon the barbarians into submission.
Is this somehow un-Christian? Hardly. This is a proper understanding of the division of the kingdoms of the Right and the Left (speaking here of civic and spiritual, not political parties). Every effort has been extended to these thugs in the name of diplomacy, something that they continue to show little to no interest in (unless it may be twisted to their advantage by buying them time to carry out even more acts of terror).
Crushing the enemy into paste is a non-partisan issue.
But some, sadly, wish to deliberate, twiddle, and otherwise preoccupy with a toolbox that's just empty. I'm all for rising up as one nation, party affiliations aside, to confront the threat, but how many that are charged with such decision-making on Capitol Hill that ignore the facts and pander to their constituency can rightly say the same and keep a straight face (or pass a polygraph test)?
traeh,
I understand km's sentiment. The people who deserve to suffer from the policies inflicted on us over the last several decades will not be hurt. They live in their gated communities or family estates. Those who voted for these people and who continue to support them and their policies deserve to reap what they have sown.
You speak of the need for non-Muslims to band together. I'll express another POV: you can't help people who don't want to be helped. Some people really do believe that Western civilization has been the bane of mankind. They would rather suffer and die than fight for their own survival. We can't worry about such people. We can only save ourselves. None other than Michael Savage spoke today of the "hijacking" of Islam and of the peaceful and respectful view Islam has toward Jews and Christians. I thought the man had more sense but even he has succumbed to some form of multiculturalism. It must be something in the San Francisco air.
How moronic and mentally retarded are you? You're a great rival of our ass clown and troll Micky. Robert only links terrorism to Islamic theology, not to the fact that people belong to a certain ethnic group or come from a certain region. In North Africa there are no other religions, there's only Islam. (The Jews were expelled.) And that is what drives these Mohammedans. In Denmark they also harrass the Inuits of Greenland who are Danish citizens. Islam is a racist ideology, especially an anti-Semitic ideology. Forget all about the Latino, Black Caribbean and White gangs, they're innocent boys compared to Mohammedans.
You obviously cannot contest my point, so you resort to insults and some incoherent arguments. Morocco still has Jews, and it's irrelevant. What is relevant is the motivation and behaviour of the youths and Islam does not play a part in what they do or their motivations. They do not pray, probably drink and smoke drugs, and at most only fast during Ramadan due to family.
There is a link between immigration and gang or organised crime, e.g Latinos, Blacks, East Europeans, Russians, Turks and North Africans, the reasons are economics, social, and psychological, but you lack the intelligence to get into a discussion about this.
The neighboring Norwegians and Swedes got it even worse, and they richly deserved it by slandering and demonizing Israel to appease the Muslims.
Not the heroic people of Denmark. They courageously resisted and survived the Nazis. But who will liberate them from the infiltration, infestation and demographic jihad by Islamo-Nazis? Zionism and only Zionism can save that beautiful people. The Danish people should launch a Zionist movement as Resistance to the creeping Islamo-Nazi occupation. Otherwise, they will be better off leaving their beautiful little country and moving to Israel, the whole people, and take defense, back-to-back with the Israeli people, to survive together.
Ruslan Tokhchukov, EnragedSince1999.
The neighboring Norwegians and Swedes got it even worse, and they richly deserved it by slandering and demonizing Israel to appease the Muslims.
Not the heroic people of Denmark. They courageously resisted and survived the Nazis. But who will liberate them from the infiltration, infestation and demographic jihad by Islamo-Nazis? Zionism and only Zionism can save that beautiful people. The Danish people should launch a Zionist movement as Resistance to the creeping Islamo-Nazi occupation. Otherwise, they will be better off leaving their beautiful little country and moving to Israel, the whole people, and take defense, back-to-back with the Israeli people, to survive together.
Ruslan Tokhchukov, EnragedSince1999.
jowen, I don't see the value of epistemology's insults. But your charges against Robert are not directed against a specific writing or article, and that is not a particularly civilized way of fighting either. By failing to tie your charges to specific writings or articles from Robert, you open yourself to the countercharge that if you knew what you were talking about, you would have the courage to back it up with specifics that everyone here could survey to judge for themselves whether your charges have worth. But instead, you attack from behind a wall of vagueness unanchored in any specifics. Well, people are innocent until proved guilty, and you have not yet provided any proof, only a naked assertion, which can have little or no weight in a responsible discussion.
jowen wrote:
"Islam does not play a part in what they [the "youths" of the story, as the "youths" of France and Holland who go around vandalizing and abusing and terrorising various people, including Jews and females who dare not wear the veil] do or their motivations. They do not pray, probably drink and smoke drugs, and at most only fast during Ramadan due to family."
These various "youths" -- even if jowen's wholly unsubstantiated assertion that they "do not pray, probably drink and smoke drugs, and at most only fast during Ramadan due to family" -- are nevertheless the front-line soldiers of the Jihad: they are what the Marines calls "grunts". It matters not that they may be lax in this, that or the other thing that Mohammed deemed halal or haram. All that matters is that these boys, these incorrigible habibis ("kids will be kids!" say the local clerics wagging their heads, yet smiling fondly at the young vandals), churning out from the vast and diverse "tapestry" that is the Army of Islam, do their special part on the front lines.
Traeh,
My point is related to this very thread, and others of a similar nature, and linking them to Jihad and Islam. You speak about not providing proof and naked assertions, so where is the proof that the behaviour of these youths ( behaviour that can be found amongst youths of all races and religions) is motivated by there desire to be good Muslims? All we have is naked assertions, ohhh their called Abdul, Mohammed etc and from Morocco or Algeria so they must be devout and knowledgeable Muslims who do what they do for their religion. Then, as my original post states, the same can be said for all the youths of Christian origin who also commit crimes and anti-gay acts.
The Muslim world, or people of Muslim origin with names like Mohammed, Abdul etc, are not homogenous in their level of belief, sincerity, motivation and behaviour, and the amount of influence Islam has on these aspect varies amongst people and even within individuals.
"If that law passes, how can we employ J. Groebbels to report this news?"
Who is J. Groebbels? You might try checking the spellings of names before doing your cut and paste routine. Try looking up Joseph Goebbels, who was the Reichminister of Progpaganda from 1933-45. You and the Islamists have a great deal in common with him.
Part of being a good muslim is creating terror in the hearts of non-muslims. If the article is correct, Tingbjerg is now a muslim majority town and so it's quite natural what follows. It's a pattern seen over and over again in towns and cities all across Europe. Before muslims took over this little town it had a bigger population so one would think there would have been more incidents of violence simply as a result of the number of people living there, but the article makes it clear that Tingbjerg appeared to be a nice place to live before... now it seems increasingly just a nice place to leave. Very disheartening that Europe is allowing islamic ideological filth to breed and destroy its once civil society.
Trying to de-link Islam with horrific violence and terror is really ingenious but futile. Look at UK: so many have immigrated from Indian subcontinent, but it is ONLY muslims that have indulged in acts of terrorism and thuggery. When did you hear about Hindus, Sikhs, or Buddhists plotting terror acts in Britain? How many Buddhists indulged in suicide bombings or rioting following the destruction of Bamiyan Buddha (a world heritage site)? Yet, muslims worldwide rioted after mere Danish cartoons. If one does not see a corelation between Islam and violence, then the person is totally blind.
"If thats the case why not link all the Latino, Black Caribbean and White gangs to Christianity, as most of them identify themselves as Christians, come from Christian nations and also a vast majority of them commit their crimes while wearing chains with the CROSS!!!!"
Now, where it that happening? Why do you assume that Latino, Black, and White gangs are practicing Christians or identify as such? Please provide a reference for this assertion. You seem to be doing some projection here. Most Western countries are quite secular, and have relatively few religiously active people. Also, what chains with the cross are you talking about? You probably need to take the lithium dose you have been presecribed before posting, or as least as your caregiver before you do so.
Agreed on all points, but I also submit that many muslims have long seen a correlation between islam and violence but will never admit the connection because it doesn't serve their purpose. They are willfully blind but their purpose is steadfast - to deceive and destroy dar al-harb.
"If that law passes, how can we demonize our targeted minorities with this news?"
posted by the intrepid truth-teller AM
Whites comprise less than 10% of the global population. They are the only true "minority" group that exists beyond a few obscure religious sects and ethnic tribes. Whites did not invite "minorities" to invade their countries to exploit them and they are sick of identity politics and the civilizational suicide being promoted by self-hating, left-wing social engineers and traitorous political leaders. "Targeted minorities" my ass!!
If hordes of whites decided to migrate to any non-Western country, what "minority" rights would they get?
The evidence for the links between Islam and violence have been documented so many times here and elsewhere. It has even been proclaimed by how many imams and groups in their proclamations? You can find quite a bit of this at MEMRI.org, in which much of this is translated. To make the contrary claim is rather like an alcoholic in a bar claiming that he or she is not drunk, even though they are staggering around and vomitting.
Here is your correlation:
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=2130199
km's anti-gay rant is completely inappropriate. This is an anti-Jihad site, not an anti homosexual one. Ever hear of Log Cabin Republicans? I am one.
I really didn't understand how the pastor could of thought his sexual life-style had nothing to do with it.
"We also sent Lut : He said to his people : Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds." Qur'an 7:80-81
The Hadith and homosexuality: Many Hadiths (ahadith) discuss liwat (sexual intercourse between males). Two examples are:
"When a man mounts another man, the throne of God shakes."
"Kill the one that is doing it and also kill the one that it is being done to." (in reference to the active and passive partners in gay sexual intercourse)
There is at least one mention of lesbian behavior mentioned in the Hadith: "Sihaq (lesbian sexual activity) of women is zina (illegitimate sexual intercourse) among them."
Dr. Muzammil Siddiqi of the ISNA said: "Homosexuality is a moral disorder. It is a moral disease, a sin and corruption... No person is born homosexual, just like no one is born a thief, a liar or murderer. People acquire these evil habits due to a lack of proper guidance and education."
I support gay marriage. Don't pay attention to christians on this site who don't. They are small minded.
proxywar, km, and others:
Of course Christianity is not about pillaging others. However, homosexuality, abortion, and all these other things that our elite is pushing on us are sins. Further, the approval of evil behaviors is one of the things that is weakening the West from within. Yes, I will fight for my liberty to witness; but please do not ask me to waste too many tears on the purveyors of sinful lifestyles and the scoffers who made it possible for the degenerate religion of Islam to find a foothold among us in the first place.
Worry01, I teach in a tough high school and know what you mean about cross-wearing gangsters. But, you get any pastor who has dealt with these kids, and ask him what he thinks of "beating in", "sexing in", and the like, and you'll hear outright condemnation of the violence and immorality. He'll probably see the use of the cross as a mere talisman as a kind of idolatry. Ask the imam what he thinks of the violent young men who go out, and he'll call them jihadis and martyrs.
I, too, see the rise of gangs as evidence of an acute pathology. Part of it comes from a mainstream culture that glorifies rebellion, sexual spontaneity, and flouting legitimate authority. Go read Romans 1 and tell me that our modern West isn't the kind of culture that truly deserves the wrath of God.
But the pastor went public and admitted that he wasn't gay at all.
He was being harrassed just because he was a pastor.
The church was sold. It willl probably become a mosque now.
This is typical of Muslim youths. They think they can control us. Well, they've got another think coming.
If they came into my neighborhood they wouldn't get away with it because my neighbors would form our own posse and hunt them down until they all got the justice they deserved.
This is really pathetic that the government of Denmark puts up with this crap.
'Just goes to show what becoming a dhimmi is all about.
You are held captive in your own country.
Muslims come here and make it their dar al-harb whether you like it or not.
Europe needs new political party's. I just hope it doesn't go the extreme right. But that is likely to happen somewhere. I happened recently in Bosnia and look at the consequences.
But the pastor went public and admitted that he wasn't gay at all.
He was being harrassed just because he was a pastor.
The church was sold. It willl probably become a mosque now.
This is typical of Muslim youths. They think they can control us. Well, they've got another think coming.
If they came into my neighborhood they wouldn't get away with it because my neighbors would form our own posse and hunt them down until they all got the justice they deserved.
This is really pathetic that the government of Denmark puts up with this crap.
'Just goes to show what becoming a dhimmi is all about.
You are held captive in your own country.
Muslims come here and make it their dar al-harb whether you like it or not.
Europe needs new political party's. I just hope it doesn't go the extreme right. But that is likely to happen somewhere. I happened recently in Bosnia and look at the consequences.
"Of course Christianity is not about pillaging others. However, homosexuality, abortion, and all these other things that our elite is pushing on us are sins. Further, the approval of evil behaviors is one of the things that is weakening the West from within. Yes, I will fight for my liberty to witness; but please do not ask me to waste too many tears on the purveyors of sinful lifestyles and the scoffers who made it possible for the degenerate religion of Islam to find a foothold among us in the first place."
I actually happen to agree with homosexuality on logical grounds. The bible, Torah, and Koran claim it is sinful but this is poppycock, nor is some elite pushing this on me. You may see it as evil, but i'm pretty sure homosexuals see your actions toward them as evil as well because your denying them their happiness. Homosexuality does not affect you in any way shape or form other than your bible doesn't like it. Isn't any wounder why gays might be alittle upset with religion? One man's liberty is another man's slavery.
Homosexuality is not like Islam. It has no doctrine. Taking away Islam means no possible threat of terrorist attacks. Taking out homosexuality is uncivil.
"I, too, see the rise of gangs as evidence of an acute pathology. Part of it comes from a mainstream culture that glorifies rebellion, sexual spontaneity, and flouting legitimate authority. Go read Romans 1 and tell me that our modern West isn't the kind of culture that truly deserves the wrath of God."
You sound like Jerry falwell after 9/11 here. Christians I know and like very much do not speak like this. They are very level headed and don't take every word in the bible literally.
If the pop. of Denmark hadn't been history ignoramuses about Islam, would they be in the mess they are now? Tell them about the free History of Islam for History Ignoramuses site by the Historyscoper at http://go.to/islamhistory
I don't give a rat's ass what two people do in the privacy of their own abode; what I DO care about is what they advocate in public. Believe me when I say I have no sympathy whatsoever for the "gay agenda" (advocacy for gay marriage, hate-crimes legislation, sex-education for pre-middle school children, etc.), but Bruce Bawer is a tireless advocate for the anti-Jihad and most of his commentary regarding homosexual rights has fallen within the prism of opposition to Islam.
Read KM's words carefully folks...
KM: "I am inclined to sit back and watch the Mohammedans rape and pillage across the west, just so I can sit back and watch the smug expressions that people like Bawer and all the multicult, diversity enforcing scumbags have been wearing for the last 20 years vanish from their faces."
In other words, he'd derive a perverse satisfaction from the triumph of Islam. He is NOT on our side.
I think that you have a very perverse outlook.
jowen, ok, I partly see your point, but partly disagree with it. You are partly right that there remains some question about the exact source of the criminal behavior described in the article, and specifically, the degree to which that behavior comes from Islam, vs. the degree to which it comes merely from being an alien minority outgroup. That many Muslims in Europe choose to be an outgroup, and choose not to integrate, only partly undermines the question you are raising.
But your question is also partly undermined, I think, when you equate Muslim youth violence with Christian youth violence. The difference is that what these Muslim youth are doing in many cases is supported by the deeds and statements of Muhammad himself. Christian youth cannot refer to the words of Jesus as a support for injuring non-Christians. By contrast, Islam's doctrine is dualistic: the golden rule applies only among Muslims. Non-Muslims are not considered quite human. Islamic law makes it clear that Islam considers non-Muslims somewhat less human than the early U.S. Constitution considered people of color. Blacks were considered -- what? -- 3/4 of a person in U.S. law? In Islamic law non-Muslims are granted similar, or lesser, fractional rights as against Muslims. And the Qur'an, unlike the U.S. Constitution, cannot be amended, because the Qur'an is the verbatim word of Allah.
But what do any Christian-background youths who happen to be thugs have for support from JC? Nothing. JC is reputed to have said, "Love your enemies." So the problem is that the violent, arrogant, tyrannical behavior of too many Muslim youths toward non-Muslims is in many cases in accord with the Qur'an and with Muhammad. Perhaps this could be overlooked, if Islam were not poised in the next few decades to master Europe. Already there is a chill on criticism of Islam, because anyone who does so publicly must be able to afford bodyguards. And many cannot.
So I think your statements against Robert are, at best, exaggerated. He has some warrant for being concerned about Muslim violence against non-Muslims. Muslim youth pick up their contempt for non-Muslims not merely from being a minority outgroup.
The European culture of freedom may soon disappear. One in three baby boys in France today has an Islamic name, so I gather. In twenty years, a third of France will be Muslim. Twenty years after that, France could easily be majority-Muslim. So your approach to Robert's position is, I think, misguided.
Small-minded? For disagreeing?
Tch.
I have mentioned my dismay before on Jihad Watch over the anti-homosexual comments here, which often side-track the proper anti-Islamification reasons for this sites existance. I am not gay, but simply by questioning the language of some of the anti-homosexual comments here, particularly against Bruce Bawer, I have been called a pervert, "accused" of being gay (in the finest witch-hunt tradition), and otherwise raked over the coals.As someone who believes that we all need to band together in the fight against intolerant Islam, I am happy that conservative Christians are joining the fight. But some of them do little good for the cause when they dismiss his contributions, and vehemently attack Bawer (and others) for his homosexuality, when he is one of the MOST EFFECTIVE anti-Islamic authors we have. Take it elswhere folks. There are other sites for that. Bawer, with his latest anti-Islamic book alone has probably done more for the cause of our democratic western values than most of us could do in a lifetime.
I have mentioned my dismay before on Jihad Watch over the anti-homosexual comments here, which often side-track the proper anti-Islamification reasons for this sites existance. I am not gay, but simply by questioning the language of some of the anti-homosexual comments here, particularly against Bruce Bawer, I have been called a pervert, "accused" of being gay (in the finest witch-hunt tradition), and otherwise raked over the coals.As someone who believes that we all need to band together in the fight against intolerant Islam, I am happy that conservative Christians are joining the fight. But some of them do little good for the cause when they dismiss his contributions, and vehemently attack Bawer (and others) for his homosexuality, when he is one of the MOST EFFECTIVE anti-Islamic authors we have. Take it elswhere folks. There are other sites for that. Bawer, with his latest anti-Islamic book alone has probably done more for the cause of our democratic western values than most of us could do in a lifetime.
I agree, but by degree.
See, it's one thing to acclaim Bawer's rightful indignation on strictly civil grounds: no one should have to put up with somebody (or a group of somebodys) that harrass, threaten, and otherwise malign them. Social discrimination, in all of its forms, should be both recognized and subsequently rejected.
However, this cannot (and never could mean) that one is not free to believe this or that thing about this or that thing. As a Christian who understands that the passages in Scripture that deal with homosexuality are impossible to either anthropomorphize or paraphrase, I may indeed have a different view of the world and its inhabitants than you or any other that posts here. This should not merit hateful thoughts towards one another because of these things (and they certainly don't from my end of things!)
Acknowledging Bawer's homosexual activity and activism are separate issues, and ones that may be taken up elswhere (as you correctly suggest), and certainly without all of the idiotic rhetoric that does tend to float about here.
Don't let the fact that some of us disagree passionately about one thing lead to the false assumption that we cannot unite in common cause against that which we all find detestable.
Gay-bashing is for morons, and for people who tolerate morons. I only hope that sincere disagreement doesn't constitute a "hate-crime" in the classic Orwellian sense of things.
Wyldeirishman- I don't have any disagreement with anything you said. I think that what disturbed me was the tone and anti-gay, (and yes, hateful) vehemance of the language,(liberal use of the word pervert etc.) when the JW article in question wasn't even about gay issues at all, but rather about Bawer's latest book (which is not about gay issues to any great extent either). What surprized me was how I was personally attacked over the subject, especially when I had not mentioned anything pro or con on the subject of homosexuality at all,or gay rights at all, but simply reminded people on Jihad Watch that we should try to join together against a common enemy, and not turn on each other. Had I stated support for a gay rights agenda I could understand becoming the focus of people's ire, but I have never stated one way or other how I feel on the subject, nor will I, as I prefer to focus on the looming Islamic threat to our culture and our lives.
On more addition. What bothers me is when our language on JW begins to sound like THEM. Recently there was a post by a regular poster here which refered to the Muslim woman (pregnant)murdered in court in Germany by the knife wielding lunatic, as a "worthless muslima", when the point of the JW article was to point out the hypocracy of the Muslim world in protesting her murder, but not Muslim instigated murders. The point was not that she deserved it. We can be tough and unyielding to the evils of Islam, but let's not sound like THEM!
Agreed, again. It's worth the effort NOT to descend to such lowest-common-denominator schoolyard garbage.
I've got lots of friends from all walks of life. I know where they stand on various issues, and they,likewise, know where I stand. And when either of us yields to a presupposition or an assumption about a given thing, that is addressed in animated conversation (and hopefully includes at least one pint of something dark and fierce!).
The point being that, even though we may never agree regarding certain things, the friendships persist. A profound lack of desire to behead one another goes a long way to keep that flame burning. :)
I suppose the best way to stand against the venom and still be a voice is...to do that very thing by the means that you and I would no doubt both advocate.
Pax,
Sean