UK: Muslim protesters threaten Geert Wilders: “We’ll have his head”

Because Wilders “insulted the prophet Muhammad” — by telling the truth about him, apparently.

Video thanks to Pamela.

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Comments

  1. says

    This is good publicity for Mr Wilders.
    It proves his point of view is correct.
    But will the BBC show anything like this?
    It should because it is in the public interest but I’m not holding my breath.

  2. says

    What a great target of opportunity. Sure sounds more hateful than anything I’ve heard from Mr. Wilders. Enjoy your multiculturalism, Britain.

  3. says

    The media prattles on about “Mr Wilders controversial views” about Islam.

    Strange that they don’t find anything “controversial” in the views of these would-be killers….

  4. says

    Talk about hate speech! I wonder what the bobbies would do if it were non-muslims saying that they were going to destroy Mecca and eliminate islam? What a bunch of pussies! I have to say though that the screaming speaker at their protest was right. Britain is going to fall to sharia one day, probably sooner than we think.

  5. says

    Disgusting examples of sub-primate life, they are.

    The one at the end wanted the cops to go away and to confront Wilders for “two minutes”. Why, is that how long it takes to saw off someone’s head?

    This video should be all over the mainstream news, worldwide.

  6. says

    Disgusting examples of sub-primate life, they are.

    The one at the end wanted the cops to go away and to confront Wilders for “two minutes”. Why, is that how long it takes to saw off someone’s head?

    This video should be all over the mainstream news, worldwide.

  7. says

    Pamela also has pictures of their signs.
    “Freedom can go to hell”

    Let that be a lesson to the West: DON”T fight for Muslim freedom. They DON”T want it. It’s not why they are emigrating to the West. (So why ARE they here?)

  8. says

    When/Where raisinchaser? I’m a bit hesitant to come but I think it’s time I get out on the streets to make a difference. I only hope I can control myself; I have a hard enough time controlling what I post.

  9. says

    “Geert, come outside and face the moose limbs!”

    Well, folks, you heard it directly from the moose limbs lips! …Muhammad was a murderer, and he clearly instructed his followers to be murderers, too. Thanks for proving Geert’s point, Losers!

  10. says

    The way the things are going in UK, it won’t be long when Islam will take over as their intentions are clearly shown by the demonstrators.Muslims will go to any length to defend Islam. From Muslim’s Quran Sura9:111″Allah has purchased from the faithful their lives and worldly goods,and in return has Promised them Paradise,they will fight for the cause of Allah, they will Kill and be Killed” Sura9:123,”O believers ,make war on the infidels who dwell around you.Let them find firmness in you.Know that Allah is with the righteous” We still have millions of naive indigenous people who think Islam means “peaceful” When are they going to wake up? Those who are awake must try to wake the sleepy ones, or it will be the END of our civilization as we know it. http://www.blip.tv/file/1382254 Wliders is right in say Islam ideology is dangerous I agree with him.

  11. says

    The peanut gallery has been strangely quiet today, and especially on this thread. Yeah, well, that’s because it’s impossible to defend the indefensible.

  12. says

    Why are people who have openly threatened the life of Geert Wilders not been arrested? Isn’t threatening murder a crime in the UK? I would think at the very least the names and photos of the Muslims who were making the threats are now in anti-terrorist and police databases not just in the UK but in other countries in the West.What the Muslims are most angry about is that their violence, hate and attempts at intimidation have not stopped Geert Wilders.He says whatever he wants about Islam and its vile prophet and Muslims can not stop him.The brazen behavior of these Muslims also tells you a lot about the state of the UK.

  13. says

    Watching this video just reinforces my view that Islam is for losers. And the real problem of it all is not Islam per se, which is a religion for the detritus of the human race, but rather the state of the collective will of non-Muslims. All that is necessary to defeat Islam’s many heinous intentions (whose origins go back to a first-class psychopath in the seventh century A.D.) is a realization of what Islam truly intends for all the world. Once such a realization occurs in the body politic of the West (not there yet, unfortunately, due to such culprits as PC, MC, general ignorance and apathy), Islam’s a goner. In short, the ultimate enemy of Western freedom isn’t Islam but the presently clueless Western world itself.

  14. says

    imo the protesters are suffering from Diarrhea of the mouth; constipation of lack of ideas.
    and Did the mental hospital test too many drugs on them today? and how did they bust out of the funny farm??or is that what the uk is becoming??

  15. says

    While these hadith-quoting Muslim “protesters” may be a small minority radical group, in fact their stated views regarding the harsh punishments for criticizing Islam and Muhammad are mainstream. Polls indicate that most Muslims in the U.K. want critics of Muhammad and Islam to be criminally prosecuted and punished. The standard penalty in sharia for criticizing Islam or Muhammad is death. Here they are using Geert Wilders as an example, threatening to kill him, and thus threatening to kill anyone who mentions anything critical of Islam or Muhammad. Where Muslims are not able to implement the death penalty for this “crime,” they seek whatever punishments they can get, and vigorously wage jihad of whatever kinds that they can manage to attack the Islam critic.

    Unlike the elaborate webs of apologetics spun in regards to the apostasy penalty in Islam, most Muslims, in my experience, are surprisingly forthright in their openly angry reactions toward blasphemy. They generally do not deny that there are penalties in sharia for blasphemy, and they do state publicly that there should be some kind of criminal penalties for blasphemy.

    Some of them do use apologetics, mostly tu quoque and various deflections and distractions, regarding the blasphemy penalties, but for the most part Muslims in the West seem to realize that the blasphemy penalties are something they have little choice but to defend. For if non-Muslims were permitted to freely criticize Islam and Muhammad, without fear and without punishment, Islam would be finished, at least as a legal-military-political entity, perhaps within a generation of two. Islam will live or die depending on exactly what sorts of expressions and statements are permitted.

  16. says

    These morons need to be outnumbered and their idiotic message drowned out by some counter protests. What a collection of douchebags.

  17. says

    Note that the apparently desperate young men in this video have no original or independent ideas. They obviously don’t think independently. They cowardly huddle together in a group, protected by police, and threatening one man. In doing this they aim to threaten all non-Muslims who disagree with Islam. They quote and paraphrase the Islamic texts and teachings, which in the final analysis and in context tell them that the way to deal with people like Geert Wilders is to threaten them, and to kill them. They have to resort to violence and threats, and a big emotional pomp and display, because the Islam that has been spoon-fed to them leaves them mentally, and morally, unarmed.

    Geert Wilders could not ask for better publicity than this. Where are the articulate Muslims who can argue with Geert Wilders without resorting to angry personal attacks, demanding to have him banned or locked up, or worse?

  18. says

    Roxane (and others): I don’t really see anger here. I just see a perforfance. Supremely confident, they say all the savage, crazy, outrageous things they like, knowing they will get away with it. They are openly confirming exactly what Wilders is saying, knowing that most of the press, the politicians and the populace they are fleecing and threatening will defend THEM rather than Wilders. It won’t be long before they just come out on the streets simply to laugh and make faces, like triumphant schoolyard bullies in schools with asinine, wimpish “anti-bullying” policies. No, they like chanting too much…

  19. says

    It’s a whole wack of RAGE BOYS!!!

    LOLOL

    I think we are seeing the genetic legacy of 1400 years of breeding to first cousins.

    I read a interesting article,, the author concluded at the end of it,,

    and I quote,,

    “I believe we are witnessing part of the human race devolving”.

    These assclowns, prove that point,, perfectly.

    Lan Astaslem

    solsticewitch13
    HD4EVR

  20. says

    Notice that these f-ers don’t need police protection. The threats are outrageous – I can’t believe that’s legal… Yet the stupid journalists (see other videos just below this one) think that Wilders is the hater and the problem. Truly amazing.

  21. says

    What a group of rabid barbarians!Should be arrested for inciting violence.Peaceful religion indeed.This religion is
    a source for violence among its followers.More like a totalitarian philosophy than a religion.

  22. says

    Why don’t these people go after Muslims who blow up Muslim
    places of worship,killing and maiming their Muslim brothers?
    Wilder and others who are so hated by Muslims aren’t harming anybody.They are just exposing Islam for what it is;
    a religion which spawns violent followers.On one hand we are
    subjected to the tired old “Islam is a religion of peace.’
    and before the sentence is finished you hear about suicide
    bombers and the usual mayhem.

  23. says

    What uglyness! So hateful! Unfortunately, not enough people are seeing, or even hearing about, what is taking place right under their noses. Well, when the horror -Islamism = terrorism- and stench of shattered and burned innocents once again accosts the general publics, maybe -but don’t bet on it- the world will begin to wake up to terminal disease that is Islam. There is a war of civilizations -Islam is a civilization?- on the horizon, and the sooner western societies shut down the Islamic threat, the less a threat it will be. The time for action is NOW.

  24. says

    Did you catch him almost say “Israel victorious” @ 3:15?
    That was a close one.

    He seemed to be the only one not chanting at the end. I guess he just wasn’t feeling it right then.

    It must have been all those interuptions by those meatheads shouting “Allu Akbar!”

    That would get on my nerves too.

  25. says

    Kindly refrain from jumping down my throat, but does this video not simply show a very small group of angry young Muslims playing up to the cameras and showing themselves to be more jackass than informed, beyond any small sense they have in their heads?

    I’ve read the Koran and the Hadith, have some Muslim friends who say they denounce what the fuckwits in the video are horribly propagating, and I’m aware of taqqiyya. I’m aware that we’ve potentially let Muslim immigration continue over decades in Europe because of collective guilt-ridden angst over the Holocaust, and I’m aware Europe has been less than judicious in its policies relating to North African immigration go unchecked as a consequence. But may I ask if it’s fair to talk – as this thread ubiquitously does – about ‘Muslims’, about ‘them’, in such group talk as to deny – possibly – the voice of those individual Muslims who would condemn what they see in this video as much as we do?

    Thanks for any replies.

    Styrer

  26. says

    Wooow, talk about doing for free what your enemy would pay people to do in your name in order to discredit you. These people piss me off, their incendiary placards and words show a total disregard for social cohesion and the desires of 99% of Muslims to live in the UK peacefully and benefit from the education and work prospects offered to those who make the effort. I really do now know what goes on in their heads, but I believe they are trying to replicate the Makkah scenario where the early Muslims faced oppression and were truly hated and despised. I believe they are actually trying to stir up hatred towards Muslims in the hope that Muslims end up facing intolerable discrimination, abuse and persecution as this they believe it will force Muslims to unite with them (Anjem Choudhary lot) and then maybe some kind of major civil disruption will occur where they hope it will be like the battle of Badr and the first victory for Muslims after oppression and rise of the Islamic Empire.

  27. says

    Would’ve, Could’ve, Should’ve, but never have in any visible way, Styrer. And what would their condemnations be based on? Islam? No, Nothing in Islam stays the hand of any Muslim who wants to kill a non-Muslim, irrespective of the fact that most Muslims refrain from killing for reasons that are un-Islamic.

  28. says

    Yes, Jowen, you may be right. As I said, I saw it more as a performance. But if that was the kind of act the early Muslims put on in Mecca, no wonder they were discriminated against. These people are really spoiling for a fight – but they might be home when the fight breaks out, after having stirred it up. It must be so hard for them to have to sit out the “stealth jihad” which might not see Britain fully Islamized in their lifetime. They want it and they want it now! Looting! The taking of slaves! Women to spare! Islam at its glorious rampaging best…now!

  29. says

    Styrer,

    You ask “But may I ask if it’s fair to talk – as this thread ubiquitously does – about ‘Muslims’, about ‘them’, in such group talk as to deny – possibly – the voice of those individual Muslims who would condemn what they see in this video as much as we do?”

    I can only speak for my own posts, in which I base my opinions on what I know from experience and from empirical evidence (from polls, surveys, voting patterns, etc.) regarding Muslims’ opinions about the blasphemy penalties. In this case, most Muslims in the U.K. want some kind of harsh penalties for blasphemy against Islam/Muhammad. The mainstream Islamic legal punishments for blasphemy are very harsh, up to and including death. In regards to the blasphemy issue, then, the loud-mouthed radicals in the video are not merely quoting/paraphrasing hadiths and sharia, but are reflecting popular Muslim sentiment in the U.K.

  30. says

    Styrer, a reply.

    Yes, we should certainly remain aware that many Muslims do not want the Islam one finds in the Qur’an, Hadith, and Sira. Many Muslims don’t want jihad or Islamic law. Many Muslims, that is, are only nominal Muslims. And many Muslims are only vaguely and very imperfectly aware of the contents of their own doctrines, because Islam entails reciting the Qur’an in Arabic, which few Muslims know. Even Arabs today find Qur’anic 7th century Arabic far from transparent.

    But it’s wrong to suppose that the problem here is a tiny minority of Muslims. Significant percentages of Muslims support Islam, no matter what it says. Significant percentages of Muslims like Osama bin Laden. Significant percentages of Muslims believe apostasy from Islam should be punished by death. Significant percentages of Muslims believe Islam should dominate everywhere on earth and place the whole earth under Islamic law. All the schools of Islamic law support the death penalty for apostasy from Islam.

    Islam is a worldwide totalitarian threat — in Thailand, in the Philippines, in Israel, in Europe, in Africa. And it is a totalitarian threat because young men like those in the video are arguably more in tune with Islam’s central documents than are the so-called moderate Muslims who virtually never come out publically in criticism of the totalitarian behavior of the jihadists and lovers of Islamic law. And why don’t the moderates come out publically? Because the “extremists” are closer to the actual contents of Islam than are the moderates. The moderates do not have a theological leg to stand on. And if they try anyway, they risk being shunned,threatened, or killed by their co-religionists. Who wants to have to watch his own back all the time?

    Apart from theology, the proof is in the pudding. Muslim-majority nations on the whole have the worst human rights records of any nations on earth. The larger the percentage of Muslims in a nation, the worse that nation’s adherence to civil liberties and political rights tends to be.

  31. says

    ” A Nick In Time Saves Nine ” What the wise UK Govt & other democracies of the West waiting for & tolerate the Open Defiances of these Mad Muslims ? They should be in Mental Asylums which are well protected for themselves & others.

  32. says

    Did anyone else catch on that the reporter referred to the protester as ‘brother’ and was from Press TV, the Iranian State propaganda channel?

  33. says

    Styrer,

    “I thought on THIS site – Robert Spencer’s site – that I’d be granted proper figures with which to assail my antagonists, who think Islam is nothing to worry about.”

    What sort of figures? Poll and survey evidence regarding Muslims’ views on sharia, for example, can be found at PEW and World Public Opinion sites. There are also numerous other poll and survey results, picked up in mainstream news media, that have been presented in the articles on this site over the years. If you have access to a good university library, or its online resources, that might also help.

    “Am I wrong to have come here? Or must I simply submit to the group phenomenon here which sees no nuance whatsoever, because Islam and Muslims are just so collectively dastardly?”

    I wouldn’t say all of the posters here have that view, but many do. Maybe you can challenge the prevailing view in the comments section, though I wouldn’t recommend wasting time on that. I would recommend that you delve into the empirical research yourself, and then cite what you’ve learned from that evidence in your discussions with those (e.g., the “lefty-liberal types” you mentioned earlier) who are not yet convinced about the nature and scope of the problem of the present-day Islamic revival.

  34. says

    Styrer : …does this video not simply show a very small group of angry young Muslims playing up to the cameras and showing themselves to be more jackass than informed, beyond any small sense they have in their heads…

    Find yourself a Muslim, ONE (!) who wholeheartedly comes out against them and denounces them unequivocally, and when you have done that, come back and call us a tiny minority of extremists!

    Waiting……

  35. says

    Final part of the video the interviewee could not express in words how tolerent the islamic cult is.Beware of this cult Britain, religion of eternal peaces. Whoever feeds these lunatics and thinks he is safe will repent in a few years if he is not repenting yet. Spot and deport these rouges along with their full families.

  36. says

    Steyrer sez:

    “There’s the idea, therefore, that Muslims don’t protest simply because they’ve done what we always wanted them to do, from the start – they’ve assimilated. It’s on the surface a bit persuasive.”

    Not. “Assimilation is a crime against humanity”-google the quote. It comes from “moderate, modern” Turkey’s PM Taiyyip Erdogan.

    I have yet to see one or to hear about ONE Muslim who has integrated or assimilated without being vilified and condemned by his co-religionists (for being an uncle Tom or a traitor-apostate) Those who do live in fear (like Ayaan Ali Hirsi, Wafa Sultan or Nonie Darwish) because they openly denounce what they call their “faith”…

    No. Muslims are religiously obliged to make the world Islamic. Muhammad said “War is Deceit”, and Muslims follow Muhammad.

    Most of us here on Jihad Watch refuse to be deceived.

  37. says

    How many different ways can we say “Muslims are barbarians”? It is difficlt to find new words to describe this evil cult that has lasted 1400 years.

    Geert Wilders is a person trying to make the world a better place. Muslims cannot say that. PC MC folks mistakenly think that Muslims will come around to the secular viewpoint the same as other cultures have done. Where is the proof of this? Where has this been done? Where in this world have Muslims become civilized to the point that they are tolerant of other religions and cultures? PC MC’s are a retrograde bunch and deserve everything that they are bringing about. TGeert Wilders and the rest of us do not. Unfortunately, they are trashing the world right in front of us. PC MC’s are the worlds trash and Muslims are the rodents in the trash heap.

  38. says

    styrer;- all of them. Mr. Spencer is the most sincere, knowledgable, accurate and fair minded of all those who have the courage to tell it like it is about the religion of peace.
    I echo the post of sheik yer’mami; find ONE moslem, no matter how “enlightened,” who will look you in the eye and tell you that mein koranf is wrong when it states that we kufr are “apes and pigs” and that we must be hunted down and killed. It’ll never happen, because such a person is very well aware that his head would come off if he ever dared to do so.
    Think about it.

  39. says

    ‘Of course it says that.”

    I rest my case.

    That’s why ‘Jihad Watch’ and ‘Sheik Yer’mami’,- that’s what we’re all about.

    Not until Muslims denounce the hateful, genocidal scriptures and the mission to make the world Islamic (which is the essence of Islam) by waging jihad-terror against the world will there be peace, or a humanity that can coexist.

    Why is that so hard for you to understand?

    Many of us (including myself) have had lots of experience of living with Muslims. We know what Islam does to people. Humanity among Muslims is not because of Islam, its in spite of it, because the teachings of the profit Muhammad defy every instinct of humanity or goodness.

    Bad is good and good is bad. For Muslims, every thing that advances Islam is applauded, every thing that stands in the way of Islam must be removed, vilified, destroyed, killed etc. My local imam told me Islam is like a tsunami. Our polit-f*kcs call it “man made disaster”. In that case, I agree.

  40. says

    Styrer:

    which book of Robert’s should I start with?

    I’d start with The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (And the Crusades. All Robert’s books are very good, but this is best as an introduction.

    Imagine – a Koran stripped in equal fashion to the Bible of all its horrid bits. Why not?

    This is what Muslims Against Sharia are trying to do. The problem is that if you take the nasty bits out of the Koran, there’s not much left. Still, theirs is an honest effort to reform Islam, rather than gloss over the unpleasant bits.

    I’ve written two pieces on Islamic reform at New English Review: Part 1 and Part 2. I see it as an enormously difficult, and probably impossible task. Reform needs to come from Muslims themselves rather than well-intentioned Westerners. And will Muslim reformers live to tell the tale or be killed as apostates?

  41. says

    ‘If Britain was an Islamic state Geert Wilder’s head would be on a stake’

    Well I think this says it all about where we are headed with Islam in Britain today. We want more demonstrations like this to get the message home to the naive and gullible. Everytime the Muslim rabble appear in public they give the game away with their rhetoric, messages of hate on their signs and aggressiveness which comes over loud and clear in the film.

  42. says

    Stryer – reforming Islam is like trying to reform Satanism. It’s not possible and you wouldn’t try it. Just because Islam is mainstream doesn’t mean it has any merit.

  43. says

    These peoples they are the young paki
    born in Great Britain…These young mohammad muslim
    knows nothing about Islam.. asked them which Koran (Quran)
    they are refering to…

    Mr Geert Wilders has done no wrong, all what he
    has said was from the Koran,Hadith and the Sira..
    nothing more or less…

    Why no mohammadan muslim in England ever demostrated
    against the Authors of the Koran.. Hadith…and the
    Sira.. for saying the same thing as Mr Geert Wilders..

    These show mohammandan islam and its followers was misquoted with deliberate falsification to pretend to be mostly ignorant and trusting world that Mohammad Islam is a
    peaceful and peaceloving belief system…

  44. says

    Stryer – reforming Islam is like trying to reform Satanism. It’s not possible and you wouldn’t try it. Just because Islam is mainstream doesn’t mean it has any merit.

  45. says

    My opinion of ‘moderate’Mahoundians…

    There is no such thing as a ‘moderate Muslim’…Here’s why…Allah wrote a book ‘The Quran’…In his book he clearly states who his enemies are and how he want’s his submitters (Muslims) to relate to these kufr (disbelievers). Which Muslim, or group of Muslims is going to stand up, look Allah right in his one big eye, and declare…” I don’t like some of the things you said in your book, so I am going to change them, eliminate them or ignore them”?
    This/these Muslims better hope Allah is in a good mood, which is rare for him, he’s a very cranky god who spends most of his time in the furnace room shoveling kufr into the fire…Muslims who even ‘think’ reform or moderation are in severe danger…not from those filthy Kufr…from Allah…The wise Muslim does not want to end up on the business end of Allah’s furnace shovel…Getting into heaven is paramount…That’s why Islamic ‘moderation’ is fake…It’s ok to fake ‘moderation’ if it’s in Allah’s benefit…but it is still fake…There is no such thing as ‘real’ Islamic moderation, and any Muslim who attempts it will have to deal with Allah’s wrath…

  46. says

    “Or are you saying that it’s all really just a good dollop of taqqiyya, and they can’t be believed?”

    Styrer, you seem to enjoy putting words in other people’s mouths…

    “So the term I use – ‘Islamist’ – is itself a form of capitulation, of willfully invited ‘dhimmitude’, is it, because it lexically lets the fuckers off the hook?”

    …and you really enjoy using the word “fuck” in all its variations. “Fuck” is not going to shock anyone here; it’s only proof of your lack of civility and your seeking of cheap thrills.

    Cheers,
    Abscedere

  47. says

    The horrible mistake of permitting mass Muslim immigration that spits on the graves of their forefathers who spilled so much blood to finally stop them in Vienna in 1683 will cause unimaginable horrors in the future. I guess love will conquer all :)

    I teach the true facts of the rise and spread of the Islam mental AIDS for free. http://go.to/islamhistory

  48. says

    P.S.

    “It’s the small percentage that needs to be heard, surely, to see how they DO it. I would have thought that that is what we all would want.”

    Personally, I don’t care how they do it — because I am just glad that they do ‘Do It’. I mean why waste everyone’s time getting bogged down in hearing them out, what would be the point? There is no point, not when their time and our time could be better spent joining the anti-jihad fight.

    Jihad is on the rise. Lives and freedoms are at stake, and you are concerned about their feelings? How Foolish! I would suggest that this “small percentage” of peaceful Muslims get over themselves and ‘Do’ the right thing by joining the anti-jihad movement and confront the jihadists …and stat! We don’t need to get bogged down in their need to be heard. Not when lives are at stake. Good gawd.

  49. says

    http://www.veteranoutrage.com

    I told you Democrats would betray us all
    I told you Obama is a secret muslim.

    Because when it comes to the liberals
    they either are with us or with the Muslims..

    Im sorry but thats the damned truth..
    Islam the religion of pieces
    because wherever islam goes
    everything ends up in pieces

    this isnt a religion hell no
    Islam looks like the MAFIA..

    Notice how the muslim says
    Oh i wont do it (kill him)
    but remember all over the world we have our
    muslim brothers and one of them will kill him..

    thats called organized crime and if i remember
    also called solitication to committ murder

    How come this scum isnt in jail right now?

  50. says

    For anyone still confused by multiculturalism, here’s a summary:

    If a Muslim says “Islam calls for anyone who insults Muhammed to be killed”, well, he’s a member of a protected minority, whose views need to be respected, and who’s entitled to the full range of free speech that everyone in the West enjoys.

    If a non-Muslim says “Islam calls for anyone who insults Muhammed to be killed”, well, then that person is an Islamophobic, racist, intolerant, xenophobic, right-wing extremist who should be silenced by being charged with a hate-crime.

    Any questions?

  51. says

    I don’t understand why some folk are getting agitated by Styrer’s questions which to me seem perfectly reasonable. It will be apparent to the uninitiated that a significant number (I’ll refrain from saying the majority) of muslims have no interest in slaying the non-believers wherever they find them. They may even “know lots of muslims and they’re all really peaceful”. Of course that’s not to say that there aren’t a whole shitload of muslims who wouldn’t hesitate in offing a kafir or that such an action couldn’t be justified by referring directly to islamic scripture, but to the average kafir (who has never investigated the contents of the Qur’an and Hadith for themselves and witnessed in black and white the passages and verses that give rise to muslim hostility towards non-muslims), the anti-jihadist who talks of the entire muslim population of the world as a malevolent collective bent on the destruction of the kafir, is going to sound as hysterical as any muslim. Most of these kafir will have heard all of the soothing platitudes apologists for Islam have to offer, “Islam means peace”, “tiny minority of extremists”, “terrorism/honour killing/FGM has nothing to do with islam” etc. etc. and some of them may have been wooed into believing that “real Islam” poses no threat to them. These are the people we need to bring back into the fold with facts and evidence, ranting about satanism is unlikely to produce the desired result.

  52. says

    I have been surfing around the television news media all day long trying to find some coverage of Geert’s visit to the UK and I have found nothing on either the Canadian, American or on the BBC News networks.

    It’s truly amazing!

  53. says

    Not only do I agree with champ that there is no point in Styrer’s quixotic pursuit: That pursuit tends to be counter-productive to our #1 priority, our safety, for it presumes something we do not, and cannot, ever know: that any given Muslims who comport to some ostensible litmus test of being “moderate” (I prefer the term “harmless” since it is the harm to us that Muslims seek to cause, or lack thereof, that is all that matters for our purposes) really are “moderate” or harmless. Not only does it presume that, it also tends to lend credence to the more general idea that there exist large numbers (despite Styrer’s protestations that the numbers are very small) of Muslims (probably at least a slim majority) who cannot possibly be the pathologically fanatical believers in militant expansionist supremacism that obviously the so-called “jihadists” are by their own words. For, how could millions and millions — yea, hundreds of millions — of people (especially “ethnic” people who wear cool ethnic clothes) be so fanatically anti-liberal, unjust and dangerous? Since the vast majority of them look “ethnic”, we would be “racist” — and certainly “bigoted” — for even entertaining such a possibility, nay?

    The main problem with trying to palpate out of the global population of Muslims some number of harmless Muslims — usually based on the presumption that they must exist in the first place — is not that harmless Muslims do not, in fact, exist. It is highly likely that there do exist harmless Muslims. The problem is not that we cannot determine how many there are. The problem is that we cannot determine who and where they are. For the purposes of our collective safety, and given a complex of reasons including the crucial importance of taqiyya in Islam, any given ostensibly harmless Muslim cannot be trusted to be what he appears to be. That’s the brute fact. And this would not be the formidable problem it is, were we not faced with a global revival of Islam in all its essential, classical militant expansionist supremacist glory — a revival manifesting itself in the form of innumerable, difficult-to-pinpoint, globally widespread, dizzyingly multifarious groups and associations of Muslims who easily swim in, and camouflage themselves amongst, a sea of fellow Muslims all over the world who in turn provide them with a whole spectrum of enablement ranging from passive to various degrees of active collusion: a revival fanatically determined to acquire, and deploy, WMDs of various flavors — chemical, biological, nuclear — against us in places and times we will not always be able to intercept.

    In addition to all this there is, of course, the problem of what “moderation” means in an Islamic context, which other commenters here have tackled well. Mainly, the problem is that in the Islamic context, there is no moderation of the militant expansionist supremacism that is the core blueprint of Islam as divinely enshrined in the Koran and the Sunna. As with any military society, or with any large army, not all members are front-line soldiers. An army also has cooks, laundry-women, repairmen, technicians, medical personnel, waterboys, wives of the soldiers who support their men and give birth to new soldiers; etc. To look at the Umma, therefore, and notice that not all its members appear to be front-line soldiers, and then to conclude that those constitute “moderates” on whom we can depend is a tragically reckless attitude to take.

    In a nutshell: The risks are too high for us to trust any given Muslim with our lives.

    I.e., Styrer’s quixotic pursuit is more or less as pointless — and as recklessly counter-productive — as is the Pipes Dream (Daniel Pipes’ ongoing project of finding “moderate” Muslims who will save us from their own Islam).

  54. says

    The Mafia-Muslim Playbook, cont.

    Omerta is the law of silence. It is the code of honor in which the Mafia/Muslim so sacredly follows. The code of Omerta is an essential aspect of the Mafia/Muslim that must not be treated lightly.

    The main product of Omerta with muhammadans is the death penalty meted out to anyone who insults their profiteer. No fiendish act, no outrage committed by muhammad can ever be discussed or even expressed.

  55. says

    Regarding the question of “moderate Muslim”, I think they’re very analogous to the German population between the years 1935-45. Many of them were very kind, decent, honest people. Many were personally non-violent and not interested in politics. Most were not fanatical, ideological supporters of the Nazis, and many would have been personally sickened at the atrocities committed by the Nazis. But at the end of the day, when it came time to choose sides, the number of Germans who actually sided with the Allies and against the Nazis was infinitesimal.

  56. says

    Styrer,

    A quick answer to your continued probing question on the topic of ‘Can they/we reform islam?’. The quick answer is “No”. Here’s why: To reform Islam you have to first get rid of mohammed and then get rid of most of the quran. You have to take out a great portion of that book which is violent. The rest is plainly absurd. But this you can’t do, because you have no authority to do such a thing. In the quran it says mohammed ‘has perfected his religion’ (quran. 5:3).

    Styrer: Generational indoctrination is one of the methods by which the cult of Islam retains its adherents and propagates itself. You are talking absolute rubbish, if you are saying that every child born in Saudi Arabia, in Iran, in Yemen, Pakistan and Brunei have a CHOICE. Arrant nonsense, which you need to qualify.

    Everyone has a choice, indoctrination notwithstanding. It just takes courage. Cowardice and herd mentality are the easy choice.

  57. says

    Even assuming that “Styrer” is being sincere, he is committing a common fallacy: he is superimposing upon Muslims a Western sociopolitical model. In the West, we have seen religion erode and secularism has become maintream. “Styrer” assumes it must be the same in Muslim populations — for, after all, we are all the same, right? Wrong.

    Secondly, I’ve been a rather close reader of JW for at least 5 years. I don’t recall a “Styrer” gracing our comments sections before. Suddenly he comes in out of the blue and starts gently, with a sardonic smile not entirely hidden from view, prodding us and hinting that we are bigots. I smell fishiness.

  58. says

    That is one sad video. Sad, because it illustrates the depth that Britain has sunk to. That these Muslim scum are allowed to spout murderous hatred in the heart of London and get away with it is an indictment of Britain itself. What are the British police doing, the politicians and perhaps more importantly the British public? Nothing. The British public today are now sheep. Where are the heroes of yesteryear who would have should these Muslim thugs what’s for?

  59. says

    I’ve contended in numerous online discussions that Islam saps individuality, and makes a virtue of making independent minds gift away their ipseity, so making it practically impossible to treat Islam and Muslims with a real, enlightened sense of individuality. But this has had me taken to task by some who insist that ‘Muslims are individuals too’, adding that they make up their own minds about what they take from the Koran etc. So it’s been very useful for me to see the spirited, erudite salvos from some here arguing against this, with links etc., which I’ll make a point of going over. Thanks to those who answered my questions in this way.

    Yes, the jihad is real and seems to be spreading, and it disturbs the hell out of me. I therefore still – perhaps stupidly – like to see if there’s any way that some kind textual ‘softening’ is available. The plain fact seems to be that there simply isn’t it, in circumstances where, as some here point out, Muhammed remains ‘the perfect man’ and the Koran the final, unalterable revelation. Depressing stuff.

    Styrer

  60. says

    Interested,

    I liked your two-part essay on islamic reform at NER.
    You refer to a third part; is that still in prospect, please ?

    Styrer,

    Yes it is depressing. Hence the reluctance of so many to accept the truth and the awful ramifications of it.

  61. says

    Styrer,

    You wrote: “I therefore still – perhaps stupidly – like to see if there’s any way that some kind textual ‘softening’ is available. The plain fact seems to be that there simply isn’t it, in circumstances where, as some here point out, Muhammed remains ‘the perfect man’ and the Koran the final, unalterable revelation. Depressing stuff.”

    Yes, that pretty much sums it up. The Koran is immutable and perfect, so excising parts is not gonna happen, and add to that the concept of abrogation (the most violent intolerant parts of the Koran are “more true” than the peaceful parts), and the fact that Infidels can’t do a single thing to help reform anything in Islam, and the fact that most Muslims, even if they aren’t actively trying to kill anyone, don’t even acknowledge the need for reform (why reform what’s perfect?), and you get a depressing situation, indeed.

    But I, like you, stupidly hope for change.

  62. says

    Styrer,

    Well met. Again :). Word to others here: yes, this is going over old territory, and yes, it is worth doing.

    I know what you’re asking, because I went through that myself at the start. It’s worth giving a good browse of Hugh FitzGerald’s articles on this site. Also, Fjordman’s criticism of Irshad Manji.

    We’ve been waiting and hoping for a reform – a modernisation of Islam – for over two hundred years. It’s not happened, and it won’t happen. The basic division in the Muslim community is between those who support Shariah and Jihad and those who do nothing to support it. The previous commenters are right; Islam cannot be reformed because there is no textual basis for that reform. When Christian reformers wanted to break with Mideval Barbarism they could legitimately invoke the words of Christ. There’s nothing like that in Islam. Someone who starts questioning is far more likely to end up a fully fledged apostate than some sort of effective reformist.

    And wouldn’t fully fledged apostasty be better all round?

  63. says

    Islam is evil at it’s core …and who of us would attempt to reform evil? No one, right? Because evil cannot be reformed. You can only crush it, and let the wind deal with it’s remains. Same holds true for Islam …it must be crushed!

  64. says

    Hi Fanusi – good to hear from you again.

    Thanks for the heads-up on those articles.

    The impulse to see a workable way forward to a more moderate Islam is understandably strong when one sees the havoc the texts are wreaking in the global jihad. But it’s a pipe dream, of course – quixotic to a hopeless degree. And of course, you and others here are right – there can be no moderate Islam, as the texts themselves specifically preclude it. There’s no conceivable mechanism by which it could be achieved, as far as I can see. Christopher Caldwell is sadly right when he says that the idea of a ‘moderate Muslim’ immediately and necessarily implies the reality of a more dangerous, immoderate Muslim and Islam. You don’t hear talk of ‘moderate Protestants’, after all. You’re correct that fully-fledged apostasy would be better all round, of course. In fact, I can’t see any other way to beat this dehumanising, monstrous scourge in any other way (in no other non-apocalyptic way, perhaps I should clarify).

    Livingengine

    That’s a false and unfair conclusion. I support Wilders absolutely in his campaign against further Islamification, and his right to be heard and express his opinions, together with his right to unimpeded travel to the UK and elsewhere as an elected official. While I think he’s wrong in other areas, including the recommendation of ‘banning the Koran’, he’s spot on when it comes to Islam and the terrifying spectre of increasing Islamification, in Europe and globally.

    Styrer

  65. says

    Styrer –

    Two things:

    First, Geert Wilders has not called for banning the Koran. He has called for consistency in Dutch hate speech laws which prohibit incitement like Mein Kampf. The Koran does incite hatred as he shows in the film “Fitna”.
    http://www.jihadwatch.org/2009/02/is-geert-wilders-inconsistent-in-calling-for-banning-the-quran-and-defending-free-speech.html

    Claiming that Wilders is calling for banning the Koran is what Wilders’ detractors say, but thanks for your great support anyway.

    Second, everyone here saw a Muslim lynch mob calling for the head of Geert Wilders, except you.

    You saw “lonely, straggling Muslims” caught in the crossfire. You want to make friends with them, and pacify them with your love. That is laudable.

    You might consider going to France, meeting lonely Muslims there, and creating “French Islam”.

    I think I am being more than fair, Styrer, as well as accurate.

    Thank you.

  66. says

    Okay, everyone chill for a second. You especially, livingengine.

    Styrer, I get it about hoping for a reform. I went through much of a similar search at the time I first started looking into this. I just lost all hope of it. I also think a forthright call for Muslims to join the community of man, of rights, freedom and progress, of making it clear that they are being cheated of their natural birthright, their right to a life on this Earth, by the ravings of a seventh century epileptic, will have a better effect.

    There’s a precedent for this. Ayaan Hirsi Ali learned the truths of the Enlightenment. Magdi Allam heard the Pope’s Regensburg address and converted to Christianity. They’re not alone.

    Now let me give a little background to some of the rancor flowing around here. You see, part of it is that this idea that Wilders is being inconsistent is one of the mainstays of that globulous fraud Charles Johnson. Many of us Watchers have some thoroughly unchristian views on the guy. :)

    To understand Wilders’s comments, you have to understand the context of the continent. You have to understand how harsh the laws are about certain subjects. I own some books that could get me into trouble. What are these? Comic books in which the Nazis are the villains. These are reprinted in German in my Fatherland, but with the Swastikas removed. Got that? The bans are so strict that even schlock comic books in which the Nazis are villains may not display the swastika.

    Now is Wilders inconsistent? Well, he’s also called for a European First Amendment. In other words, he’d like to see these idiotic laws repealed. Yet, if they aren’t, and we still censor and ban anything that is Nazi-connected or antisemitic, then the Koran qualifies. No question. It’s a matter of “one law for all, that’s all there is to be said”.

    In other words, either you can repeal the bans on Mein Kampf (and my comic books, btw) and have the Koran, or you can ban both. But let’s have some consistency.

    All the best,

    Fanusi

    P.S.: I’ve left a message for you back on our old haunts. And if anyone’s wondering, the comic books I’m talking about are the Hellsing mangas.

  67. says

    Livingengine

    Let’s get this straight.

    I certainly did NOT see ‘lonely, straggling Muslims’ in this video. I referred to the scumbags in it in two ways, of which you clearly need reminding:

    1. In question form – ‘does this video not simply show a very small group of angry young Muslims playing up to the cameras and showing themselves to be more jackass than informed, beyond any small sense they have in their heads?’

    To which the answer here was a resounding ‘no’.

    2. ‘what the fuckwits in the video are horribly propagating’

    My (admittedly provacative) ‘lonely, straggling Muslims’ idea had NOTHING to do with commentary on the bastards in the video. In fact, I note you omit the rest of my sentence, which shows this emphatically: ‘that lonely, straggling, small percentage of Muslims who still identify with their holy text but who are definitely NOT against the kuffar’. And I mentioned not one jot of an iota of a scintilla of a suggestion that ‘[I] want to make friends with them, and pacify them with [my] love’.

    This is unfair and inaccurate editing, and intellectually dishonest. Please cut it out.

    Moving on to Wilders and the banning of the Koran issue – your contention that ‘Geert Wilders has not called for banning the Koran’ is simply wrong. He has. He may well have done it for the reasons you state, to exemplify the ridiculousness and the perniciousness in the notion of ‘banning books’ at all, and to show the unfairness of banning ‘Mein Kampf’ but not the Koran, which is every bit as much an ‘incitement to hatred’ as the former text. He has also called for a European First Amendment. But he has, contrary to what you assert, certainly called for a banning of the Koran, and not always successfully tied such a banning to the idea of ‘consistency’ under Dutch law. Take a look at this – his own words – and tell me where he makes the ‘consistency’ notion clear: http://www.militantislammonitor.org/article/id/3094

    He simply doesn’t. Even if it is shown that he elsewhere draws together these ideas in persuasive manner, I would STILL disagree with the man on the ‘banning of the Koran’ idea on grounds that you don’t go round vaunting free speech while trying to limit it in any way.

    But this is neither here nor there. What really bothers me about your increasingly tiresome tirade against me is not your boringly repeated suggestion that I should fuck off to France to establish French Islam, but your apparent willingness to see disagreement with any of Wilders’ ideas as ubiquitous condemnation of ALL his ideas. I agree with Wilders to an almost sycophantic degree about the nature of Islam and the threat it poses. That you intimate that my criticisms of the man in other areas not related to Islam are not permissible, or that they weaken support for his spot-on views on Islam, is puerile nonsense. It is dangerous and utterly wrongheaded bullshit. Please cut this out, too.

    Thanks.

    Styrer

  68. says

    Styrer, Geert has made the point elsewhere, though I can’t recall the exact link. The point about him advocating for a European First Amendment makes that point clear.

    I’ve had my share of arguments here. I remember one particularly bitter one where I was being yelled at by a certain idiot for saying that there were good leftists. Don’t worry about it.

    livingengine, I agree with Styrer, and go even further. I agree with Ali Sina that, when the truth about Islam is made clear to all, 90%+ of Muslims will abandon it. The remaining 10%- will need to be confined (immigration restrictions until they die out) or otherwise dealt with. There are many, many Muslims who are not evil, and there are many who are just lost. They embrace evil because it’s being presented to them as the only alternative to the mess many of them live in. We need to present them with a better alternative. We can do that. Let’s not waste our time with ridiculous infighting.

  69. says

    Islam is a scourge, and this video yet again highlights what happens when society panders to it. The scumbags in this video act tough when surrounded by their other islamic idiots, but I’d love to see how tough they are 1 x 1.

    Death to islam.

  70. says

    Islam is a scourge, and this video yet again highlights what happens when society panders to it. The scumbags in this video act tough when surrounded by their other islamic idiots, but I’d love to see how tough they are 1 x 1.

    Death to islam.

  71. says

    Islam and all its insane followers are a threat to the rest of us. Therefore we have no choice but to eliminate them, unless they stop their ridiculous crusade of hatred. Then we should go about eliminating all the multiculturalists and politicians who have afflicted us with this curse.

  72. says

    I’m on fire for overcoming this assault on freedom everywhere. Standing back and watching only gives the Islamists more power and courage to force their evil religion with their whacko founder Mooohamad on the rest of us. What’s happening in the UK is so sad. You are the people who withstood Hitler and his assaults in WWII, yet these bearded clowns make some of you cower in fright over concerns of being labeled as hate mongers! And the same thing is happening right here in the USA, just on a smaller scale so far. With our new, weak-kneed president and your yellow-bellied PM, it is left in the hands of the citizens of our great nations to fight back. And thank God that we at least still have the right the bear arms in America. God Bless the United Kingdom and the USA!

  73. says

    I’d like to suggest disarming these thugs from their weak side, namely on the front of information and reasoning. As per http://www.biggest-con.110mb.com/.
    In recent years there’s been a huge increase of knowledge of the idioticness of Islam, even before that Biggest Con approach. And before long there are going to be few young “Muslims” who aren’t aware what a laughing stock of filth it is. It will then die a non-violent death.

  74. says

    I’d like to suggest disarming these thugs from their weak side, namely on the front of information and reasoning. As per http://www.biggest-con.110mb.com/.
    In recent years there’s been a huge increase of knowledge of the idioticness of Islam, even before that Biggest Con approach. And before long there are going to be few young “Muslims” who aren’t aware what a laughing stock of filth it is. It will then die a non-violent death.

  75. says

    Jihadwatch is a fantastic website and Robert Spencer has long been one of my heroes.

    It’s encouraging to read the many well informed comments and opinions posted here – nearly everyone is rightly shocked at Islam’s apparently unassailable rise throughout the world. Most are equally shocked at the clear double standards shown by “authorities” (such as the British government and police) for allowing raging, hate-filled Muslims to incite and yell for murder, whilst their intended victims risk not only these very serious, publically made and credible death threats form openly psychopathic Muslims but also prosecution for bravely drawing attention to and daring to speak out against these same psychopaths (all whipped into a frenzy by their cult of Muhammad).

    If any readers of this website are in doubt and for any reason might have the slightest sympathy with the Muslim world I would humbly offer them a visit to my own website http://www.al-rassooli.org from which they can browse through and listen to over 250 short talks I present (on youTube “AhmadsQuran3″) that are based on over 25 years of research into this depressing subject.

    But there is finally a promising way forward….. some light at the end of this gloomy tunnel. Please do visit our exciting new website which sets out a clear vision for uniting all non-Muslims of the world (and don’t forget that’s still the vast majority of man and woman kind) into a single, sensible, no-nonsense community. Playing the Muslims at their own game we turn their own words against them…

    You are already a member of Ummat al Kuffar!

    Visit http://www.Ummat-al-Kuffar.org (or http://www.U-al-K.org) for more information.
    We welcome you and hope you’ll be pleasantly surprised.

    Kind Regards,
    IQ al Rassooli

  76. says

    Jihadwatch is a fantastic website and Robert Spencer has long been one of my heroes.

    It’s encouraging to read the many well informed comments and opinions posted here – nearly everyone is rightly shocked at Islam’s apparently unassailable rise throughout the world. Most are equally shocked at the clear double standards shown by “authorities” (such as the British government and police) for allowing raging, hate-filled Muslims to incite and yell for murder, whilst their intended victims risk not only these very serious, publically made and credible death threats form openly psychopathic Muslims but also prosecution for bravely drawing attention to and daring to speak out against these same psychopaths (all whipped into a frenzy by their cult of Muhammad).

    If any readers of this website are in doubt and for any reason might have the slightest sympathy with the Muslim world I would humbly offer them a visit to my own website http://www.al-rassooli.org from which they can browse through and listen to over 250 short talks I present (on youTube “AhmadsQuran3″) that are based on over 25 years of research into this depressing subject.

    But there is finally a promising way forward….. some light at the end of this gloomy tunnel. Please do visit our exciting new website which sets out a clear vision for uniting all non-Muslims of the world (and don’t forget that’s still the vast majority of man and woman kind) into a single, sensible, no-nonsense community. Playing the Muslims at their own game we turn their own words against them…

    You are already a member of Ummat al Kuffar!

    Visit http://www.Ummat-al-Kuffar.org (or http://www.U-al-K.org) for more information.
    We welcome you and hope you’ll be pleasantly surprised.

    Kind Regards,
    IQ al Rassooli

  77. says

    Seems I’m always quoting you, CR. You rock!

    Oh, and hey – Islamic Barbarians – your Warlord SUCKS!

    Now, come and get me!

  78. says

    Hi Comic Relief,

    It is next week, Thursday, October 22 at the Union League Club on Broad St. Geert will show Fitna and I assume make a presentation or two. The luncheon starts at noon: tickets are $100, $250, and $2,500 (I, of course, bought the cheap seat!).

    Obviously, it is difficult for anyone with any modicum of decency to remain composed when facing the likes of what we see in the above video.

  79. says

    Dear Wellington, I love your comments, because they’re always balanced and contained. Unlike me, I’ve got to admit, that I’m a Jewish hothead. But here you had to call a spsde a spade. Our Western world is clueless indeed. I think that holds for Europe even more than America. We desperately need a charismatic guy such as Geert Wilders. He keeps fighting against the land of Mordor, where the shadows lie.

  80. says

    Apologies to J.R.R.T

    One religion to rule them all, one prophet to find them,
    One ilah to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.
    In the Land of Islam where the Shadows lie.

  81. says

    These antics on he part of Islamists do more to prove Geert Wilders point than a dozen blog article. You are dealing with an unreasoning horde that becomes enraged at the drop of a hat.

  82. says

    Styrer : …does this video not simply show a very small group of angry young Muslims playing up to the cameras and showing themselves to be more jackass than informed, beyond any small sense they have in their heads

    Styrer, with all due respect, what this video shows is the tip of the spear, so to speak.

    You have the vociferous, loud, agitated voices of islam balanced against what you perceive as ‘moslem-lite’. The problem begins when your ‘moslem-lite’ friends realize that the tipping point has been reached and neatly re-embrace their chosen faith more publicly.

    Look a little more deeply into the deeds of your so-called moslem friends and see them for what they really are. It took me a while too. I REALLY wanted to be wrong.

    Try this test: Date one of their sisters.

  83. says

    Stryer,

    FaithFreedomInternational.org is an excellent site for facts and figures. It is run by Ali Sina, a Persian ex Muslim, who’s site is primarily directed at Muslims and ex Muslims.

    Noni Darwish, Mark Gabriel, and Aayan Hersi Ali all have excellent books out for further research, along with Mr. Spencer’s indispensable books.

  84. says

    Thanks for that. I’ve read that there’s no such thing as moderate Islam – that it’s incapable of going through the same kind of reformation as happened with Christianity – but that there can be moderate Muslims. If there is such a thing as a moderate Muslim, does anyone know quite which parts of the Koran and the Hadith are excised, to achieve this?

    For example, is there a toning down of the importance of Muhammed? Is there a toning down of the notion of death for apostasy? I simply don’t know. If there are certain parts which so-called moderate Muslims happily omit from their daily readings, is there a pattern to them, which could be employed to forcibly bring about a reformation of Koranic authority? Surely it is in all our interests to examine the ONE example of a single Muslim who is able to desist from following certain parts of the Koran, and focus on THAT as a possible route to reformation of Koranic canon, than to focus all our venom on Muslims as a ‘group’, from which there is surely no way out?

    What do you think?

    Styrer

  85. says

    Thanks, Traeh

    That’s a very fair summary of the situation, and please know that I am no stranger to making my e-comments elsewhere as clear as I can that all you say is true, and terrifying. But I’ve been ranted against recently by uber-lefty-liberal types who positively REGALE in trying to take me to the cleaners because of my so-called ‘groupism’, charging me with ignoring the ‘individual’ and so, in some cases, making me sound as discriminatory, hateful and myopic as those Islamists I’ve tried to criticise. I suppose I’m looking for evidence either way, here – either I’m a myopic twat with no sense of proportion, or else I do have the measure of the threat of Islam, and am right to insist that there’s a genuine danger.

    Thanks for any comments.

    Styrer

  86. says

    Kinana (if I may be so informal)

    Of course there’s a difference between ‘all’ and ‘most’, and it’s precisely that kind of differentiation that I’m appealing for. Precisely to ward off charges from naysaying appeasing, happy-go-lucky dhimmitudinally challenged types that ‘you talk in absolutes’ (one I heard recently) and that ‘you exaggerate the problem’ (hear it all the time).

    I thought on THIS site – Robert Spencer’s site – that I’d be granted proper figures with which to assail my antagonists, who think Islam is nothing to worry about.

    Am I wrong to have come here? Or must I simply submit to the group phenomenon here which sees no nuance whatsoever, because Islam and Muslims are just so collectively dastardly?

    Styrer

  87. says

    Styrer, I wasn’t joking. If you think that moslems are ‘really just like the rest of us’ try dating one of their sisters.

    Being a moslem is a purely voluntary thing, people choose to be moslem. Despite rhetoric to the contrary it’s not something anyone is born to be. With it being a choice, and with it being an inflexible doctrine how would you reconcile the myth of the casual moslem with the evidence of islamic supremacist behavior we witness every day?

    If you really want figures then you should do the decent thing and buy one of Robert’s many fine tomes and learn to debate your cultist friends yourself.

    Or watch Mosaic TV and see raw news footage from the ME.

    Or read the many web sites from the ME and see what’s actually being said. MEMRI.ORG is a good place to start.

    There are no moderate moslems, there are just moslems waiting for the tipping point to be reached.

  88. says

    I’ve read that there’s no such thing as moderate Islam – that it’s incapable of going through the same kind of reformation as happened with Christianity –

    Styrer,
    It is a fallacy that Christianity was ever “reformed”
    I know this is Ibn Warraq’s view and I respect his work but he has never been a Christian. The established secular churches may have had several reformation periods according to their own religious denominations but this is not the actual core faith of Christians.

  89. says

    Question_Everything

    Thanks for the links.

    But I really must pull you up on your assertion that ‘Being a moslem is a purely voluntary thing’. Quite how does a child in Somalia go through the process of deciding ‘I want to be a Muslim’?

    It’s far, far worse than that. Generational indoctrination is one of the methods by which the cult of Islam retains its adherents and propagates itself. You are talking absolute rubbish, if you are saying that every child born in Saudi Arabia, in Iran, in Yemen, Pakistan and Brunei have a CHOICE. Arrant nonsense, which you need to qualify.

    Styrer

  90. says

    Quite, sheik yer’mami

    I’ve argued till I’m blue in the face (ok – sore of finger pushing) that the despicable lack of shouting to the rooftops of Muslims in condemnation of their FELLOW Muslims’ atrocities is a cause for grave concern.

    One reason I’ve heard that there is normally no outcry in Europe over such outrages is that other non-violent Muslims do not think they should have to apologise for every mad-ass action taken by their co-religionists. The idea goes that there is no racial (e.g.) white European uprising in condemnation of another white European’s crime. There’s the idea, therefore, that Muslims don’t protest simply because they’ve done what we always wanted them to do, from the start – they’ve assimilated. It’s on the surface a bit persuasive.

    But it misses the point that Islam binds Muslims in a way that there is no similarly binding adhesive in the case of the European.

    But your point is still challenged by the fact that there are Europeans with Muslim friends who love living in a free society and consider shariah-law calling maniacs to be their enemy. Or are you saying that it’s all really just a good dollop of taqqiyya, and they can’t be believed?

    Styrer

  91. says

    “Or must I simply submit to the group phenomenon here which sees no nuance whatsoever, because Islam and Muslims are just so collectively dastardly?”

    And with that remark, Styrer starts stirring.

    Styrer,

    You’re not going to find too many precise statistics in the “comments” section. You’ll have better luck if you check some of the other sections of the site.

  92. says

    Oh, livingengine. Fill up at the nearest gas-station.

    I’ve read both ‘What the Koran really says’ and ‘Why I am not a Muslim’. Care to give me further reading advice?

    Or might you just, possibly, if you’ve the time, give me your opinion on the issues I’ve plaintively wailed about?

    This is like pulling fucking teeth.

    Styrer

  93. says

    Thank you for the info.

    Robert Spencer has impressed me since I started checking into this site off and on about a year ago, because he seems to keep a clean line on reflecting the Islamic texts back in the face of those who use it to justify violently mad tendencies. He almost doesn’t need to comment at all.

    So – newbie that I am – which book of Robert’s should I start with?

    Cheers,

    Styrer

  94. says

    ‘Most of us here on Jihad Watch refuse to be deceived.’

    How dreadfully conspiratorial you make it all sound.

    Do you really mean that it’s written in the Koran, and in the equally canonical Hadith, that Muslims are commanded to take over the world, to re-instate the Caliphate, and to either kill, subject or convert us kuffar?

    Of course it says that. But is it not also the case that Muslims are the foremost and most immediate victims of Islam, by way of its verminously human-defying, life-sapping, pro-death tenets? Is it not conceivable, therefore, that some – or at least a few – of the poor fuckers might have made some headway in escaping the cult’s clutches, while re-interpreting bits of their holy text or even excising parts of it?

    THAT is what I am interested in, sir. A way by which Islam might be amenable – with effort – to some notion of reform, which can then be passed on to future generations. Imagine – a Koran stripped in equal fashion to the Bible of all its horrid bits. Why not?

    Styrer

  95. says

    Thank you.

    A formidable and excellent blog, by the way. So the term I use – ‘Islamist’ – is itself a form of capitulation, of willfully invited ‘dhimmitude’, is it, because it lexically lets the fuckers off the hook?

    I guess your post and your blog are on their way to confirming in the notion that there can be no moderate Islam, and that moderate Muslims really can no longer properly call themselves Muslim. Game over.

    If I’ve horribly twisted or misconstrued your meaning, please tell me where I’ve fucked up. If I haven’t, then thanks for an entertaining and informative read.

    Styrer

  96. says

    Stryer – reforming Islam is like trying to reform Satanism.

    MrsJ, funny you should say that. Satanism was “reformed” sort of. Anton Levey (sp?) in his book, denounced blood sacrifice and killing. :)

    Which means that Islam is even behind Satanism on that count!

  97. says

    “But my concern is for that lonely, straggling, small percentage of Muslims who still identify with their holy text but who are definitely NOT against the kuffar.”

    Then start your own website devoted to the stragglers, so that this “small percentage” can be heard, because this is hardly the forum for meeting their needs.

    “It’s the small percentage that needs to be heard, surely, to see how they DO it. I would have thought that that is what we all would want.”

    Again, I recommend starting your website to better test your notion that this “is what we all would want”. IMO, you have chosen the wrong forum to test this theory on. Please, start your own forum and then see what happens.

  98. says

    Asking, not stirring, Abscedere

    Quit ‘stirring’ yourself.

    Have you read ANY of my other comments? Have you NO idea of what I’m looking for here?

    I’m not asking anything inordinately difficult, am I? It is of course easier to make a group of things, make a collective, and perhaps that’s really how it is. But my concern is for that lonely, straggling, small percentage of Muslims who still identify with their holy text but who are definitely NOT against the kuffar. It’s the small percentage that needs to be heard, surely, to see how they DO it. I would have thought that that is what we all would want.

    Styrer

  99. says

    Styrer -“Oh, livingengine. Fill up at the nearest gas-station.

    I’ve read both ‘What the Koran really says’ and ‘Why I am not a Muslim’. Care to give me further reading advice?
    Or might you just, possibly, if you’ve the time, give me your opinion on the issues I’ve plaintively wailed about?
    This is like pulling fucking teeth.” – Styrer

    Excuse me?
    That was a very strange and petulant response from someone I thought was a “newbie”, and looking for advice.

    Is it me, or Ibn Warraq you are objecting to?

    I have never met you, but I am ready, as I sense others here might be as well, to say you are either a Muslim , or a dhimmi tool. This would explain a number of things. Such as:

    1) Your concern for “lonely, straggling Muslims”, is a form of deflection from a shameful 5 minute performance by Muslims who are calling for someone to murder Geert Wilders. You might be interested in defending things like rule of law, freedom of speech, democracy, human rights, reason, etc., instead you attack us for being intolerant.

    2) Your language alternates between being overly affected, and vulgar, as well as evasive. You stated that you are interested in “A way by which Islam might be amenable – with effort – to some notion of reform, which can then be passed on to future generations.”

    Mrs. J gave you her opinion that Islam is impossible to reform after which, you said in your reply to Mrs J –
    “You are responding to me about something which is categorically NOT my point.”

    You have asked me to respond to your plaintive “wailing” about the issues you have raised. Not only does this sound like something a Muslim might say, but I have no idea what your issues are.

    “Am I wrong to have come here? Or must I simply submit to the group phenomenon here which sees no nuance whatsoever, because Islam and Muslims are just so collectively dastardly?”

    – Come or don’t come, that is up to you.

    “I thought on THIS site – Robert Spencer’s site – that I’d be granted proper figures with which to assail my antagonists, who think Islam is nothing to worry about.”

    – There is more information on this website than you can possibly keep up with.

    “I’m a myopic twat with no sense of proportion, . . .”
    – Again, that is something only you can answer.

    “Surely it is in all our interests to examine the ONE example of a single Muslim who is able to desist from following certain parts of the Koran, and focus on THAT as a possible route to reformation of Koranic canon, than to focus all our venom on Muslims as a ‘group’, from which there is surely no way out?”

    – I agree with Champ, if that is what you want to do – go ahead. This is JihadWatch, and we talk about jihad, and it’s manifestations. If you are looking for a moderate Muslim to work with try Dr. M. Zuhdi Jasser.

    3) You are spoiling for a fight.
    So be it, this is a fighting website, but I wouldn’t mess with MrsJ, if I were you. She has a lot of experience with articulate, harassed, and overworked doctors, and will put you in your place.

    You are punching way above your weight here.

  100. says

    “Can they/we reform islam?. The quick answer is ‘No’. Here’s why: To reform Islam you have to first get rid of mohammed and then get rid of most of the quran.”

    Spot on, QE! …mohammed is the crux of the matter, and they can’t exactly rewrite history and give mo a makeover.

  101. says

    Al Kidya,

    It was on newsnight in the UK (BBC)
    But was reported with the usual loonie left Bias.
    “Right wing extremist” blah blah.
    “Only a small minority of muslims” blah blah.
    Then they, as usual inserted an interview with a “moderate”
    Muslim to explain how nice Islam really is.
    You know the score.

  102. says

    “Second, everyone here saw a Muslim lynch mob calling for the head of Geert Wilders, except you.”

    Spot on, Livingengine!

  103. says

    Hi Champ,

    I am reading a good book, Power, Faith, and Fantasy by Michael Oren. http://www.amazon.com/Power-Faith-Fantasy-America-Present/dp/0393330303/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1256000829&sr=8-1

    It discusses the Barbary pirates, something which dragged on for over 30 years, bfore the U.S. forced them to stop.

    In addition to compelling the United States to pay tribute amounting to 20 percent of the national income, American ships were frequently seized, their crews enslaved, and held for ransom.

    If someone had the temerity to try to escape, and live as a free American, his fate was described as follows:

    “After they had stripped the sufferer naked, they inserted the iron pointed stake into the lower termination of the vertebrae, and thence forced it up near his backbone, until it appeared between his shoulders, avoiding the vital parts. The stake was then raised in the air and the poor sufferer exposed to the view of the other slaves, writhing in. . . .unsupportable agony.”

    I think this behavior would have appealed to the lynch mob depicted in the video above.

  104. says

    Hi Livingengine,

    Oye! …that segment from the book you’re reading made me ill …but then Islam and it’s followers make me ill.

  105. says

    Fanusi

    Picked up the message and replied. Thanks.

    Thanks too for the background. I’ve only recently come across Charles Johnson. He’s struck me so far as a gobshite of the first water.

    Cheers,

    Styrer