Arizona woman run down by her father is dead in honor killing

Not at all, she was either a kaffir or just another apostate from the islamic way. Either way, no biggey, just another useless woman and collateral damage. I hope she fully recovers, testifies against this imbecile and goes on tour explaining why this had to happen.

Poor girl, I couldn't agree more my dear Wellington. Screw 'em all. Laila tov to all of you.

wildjew, who was the afternoon radio guy?

"This is just a bizarre and ruthless killing carried out by an angry father who represents himself, not Islam."

Take your taquiyya somewhere else, troll. Nobody here buys it.

Yeah, right, hashemL.

We are so far past that BS it's not funny. So, don't bother.

PG wrote:

This killing has an added element: even the girl's friend had to be sacrificed. She has serious injuries and presumably is still in hospital. Surely even Islam would baulk at trying to kill the friend...wouldn't it?
...........................

The girl's friend—the other victim—is the mother of her boyfriend, whom Noor Almaleki was staying with. I don't know if her murderous father was aware of this and was attempting to kill her as well, or if she was just random "collateral damage".

In any case, I doubt he cared. Luckily, the second victim is expected to survive.

more:

After the incident, Suspect Almaleki drove his vehicle to Mexico. He abandoned the vehicle in Nogales, Mexico, where officials there later located and seized it. Suspect Almaleki made his way to Mexico City, where he boarded a plane to London.
...........................

Another case of "kill locally, think globally", which is so common among Muslim thugs. It also shows that the porousness of the US's southern border has disturbing ramifications that go way beyond illegal immigration from Mexico and Latin America.

Thank goodness the Brits put the homicidal monster on the next plane.

More like "Vale of Raca," if you ask me...:)

Murder one of the mostr major sins? No it isn't in Islam. To a Muslim, murder is a virtue, and it is what infidels and unpious Muslims can expect. Islam glorifies murder, and moreso when the victim is an infidel or doesn't live like the typical Muslim. We know how Muslims rejoice when Israelis or Americans get murdered in cold blood. We know how they lust for blood. And they've done it for 1,400 years. Islam is cold-heartred, barbaric, brutal, primitive, prejudiced, misogynistic, bloodthirsty, parasitical, ungrateful, racist, bigoted and downright wicked. It is far worse than any cult that has existed in history, whether it be the Aztec, Thugee or Nazi cults, and has brought far more misery to the world, and continues to bring misery to the lives of millions.

Eastview,

hate is not only from muslims or among muslims, the ideology of hate resides in all communities, muslim and non-muslim :

Between 1890 and 1968 there were nearly 5,000 known lynchings in the US. The carnage was probably much higher as many killings weren't reported. The majority of the victims were black.

ref : http://news.newamericamedia.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=fc9d6bac6881c8c42dabce3abcdb70e2

Darcy,

In the US we have the equivalent of honor of killings as numerous jealous boyfriends and husbands murder women:

According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, on average, more than three women and one man are murdered by their intimate partners in this country every day.

ref : http://www.soundvision.com/Info/domesticviolence/statistics.asp

Jew_Lover,

You stated : One has to wonder if in the history of humanity, there has ever been an example of an Infidel father killing his daughter for becoming a muslima.

Comment :

A lot worse than that has happened.

Look up Deuteronomy 20:16, regarding the genocide of all men, women, children and babies at the hands of Jewish armies.

A Jerusalem-based Holocaust Studies Professor Yehuda Bauer stated : "As a Jew, I must live with the fact that the civilization I inherited ... encompasses the call for genocide in its canon.

ref : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history#Before_1490

Jew_Lover,

You stated : One has to wonder if in the history of humanity, there has ever been an example of an Infidel father killing his daughter for becoming a muslima.

Comment :

A lot worse than that has happened.

Look up Deuteronomy 20:16, regarding the genocide of all men, women, children and babies at the hands of Jewish armies.

A Jerusalem-based Holocaust Studies Professor Yehuda Bauer stated : "As a Jew, I must live with the fact that the civilization I inherited ... encompasses the call for genocide in its canon.

ref : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history#Before_1490

Here is the problem with your argument:

While your statistics may be true, more or less, there is a HUGE difference between any of the violence you cited versus honor killings and versus suicide bombers and versus apostate killings.

Even during the period of lynchings, there was NEVER a time when they were expressly endorsed by the secular law or moral law of ANY religion. Sure, there were law officers and clergy who enabled or cooperated with the lynchings, but it was still illegal and morally reprehensible. In Islam, such acts can be supported by centuries of Islamic jurisprudence based on easily produced citations from the Quran and the Hadith as has been often cited on this blog.

What is more, look at the current trend and climate in the respective environments: There is more and more support for strict enforcement of domestic violence in this country. There is ABSOLUTELY NO support for lynchings. Also, any group, secular or religious, that supports or allows any of what you mentioned are reviled by the majority of religions and secular society.

On the other hand, killing apostates is SPECIFICALLY endorsed by current Islamic legal authorities. Honor killing and certain domestic violence are both justified in Shariah and more prevalent as Muslim populations gain strength and religious fervor.

There are even Islamic clerics who council RAPE in certain circumstances for women who have committed certain acts and are being punished by death.

In western society, if a man kills his daughter for ANY reason, he is universally considered criminal and morally bankrupt.

In Islam, if a man kills his daughter for certain reasons, Muslims, including clerics and scholars, are frequently sympathetic and often support the action with the Quran, the Hadith, and thus Shariah.

Where are the MUSLIMS of ANY public stature condemning this man in public?

Where are the Muslim CLERICS preaching against this action amd others like it?

Why do you think it is enough to say "it is cultural" and not say, "this man should be punished for what he did, NO man has a right to kill his daughter under ANY circumstances" with conviction?
Where

djrz,

Remember, western countries have had a 600 year head start on muslim countries and only recently in the 60s did all Americans receive full human rights and Jim Crow laws were abolished.

The fact that there are numerous secular muslim countries shows that the Koran/Hadith cannot override the free will in numerous muslim govts to adopt secular laws instead of laws based on Sharia or at least the strict aspects of Sharia, so there does exist progressive movements within muslim countries like Turkey and Malaysia and the following secular muslim countries :

Burkina Faso
Chad
Gambia
Guinea
Mali
Senegal
Somalia
Kazakhstan
Kyrgystan
Tajikstan
Turkmenistan
Uzbekistan
Albania
Azerbaijan
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Kosovo

Ideologies of hate are not solely dependent on religion.

Ideologies of hate can be race based, gender based, religion based, cultural based, relationship based etc etc,

But the result is the same, the suffering of minorities at the hands of the majority and the solution is dialog, security and financial incentives.

Reported crimes against Muslims decreased from 156 to 115, 8.2 percent of the religion-based crimes. This is still more than four times the number of hate crimes reported against Muslims in 2000.

In contrast to the FBI's HCSA data, the U.S. Department of Justice Bureau of Justice Statistics in 2005 reported sharply higher numbers of hate crimes committed in the U.S.:

An annual average of 210,000 US hate crime victimizations occurred from July 2000 through December 2003. During that period an average of 191,000 hate crime incidents involving one or more victims occurred annually. Victims also indicated that 92,000 of these hate crime victimizations were reported to police. These estimates were derived from victim reports to the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) of the Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS).

ref : http://www.civilrights.org/publications/hatecrimes/nature-and-magnitude.html

The reason I am pro-muslim, pro-jew and pro-Christ is because:

My agenda is very clear.

Jesus said " blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called children of God".

I am on the side of Jesus and being on His side, I know I am going to be blessed in my life.

Hatred only consumes a person's soul and that is one reason why so many people attract danger to their lives, like cancer.

You will be blessed by God if you are a full-time peacemaker, making peace between christians and muslims and vice versa.

That is my agenda because more often than not, conflict results in war and the victims of war are mostly children, the weak, the poor, the handicapped and the old while the so-called adults make war and send the young to their deaths all in the name of patriotism and duty while the rich and powerful in the military/industrial complex profit from war as they "laugh all the way to the bank".

Djrz,

Katherine Zoepf reported in the New York Times, (September 23, 2007):

“Grand Ayatollah Mohammed Hussein Fadlallah, the top Shiite cleric and spiritual leader of Hezbollah, issued a fatwa banning honor killing and describing it as “a repulsive act, condemned and prohibited by religion.”

I agree with you on the fact that wars only bring tears and death and wealth to some people.The problem with Islam is a different one. The teaching of Islam is not compatible with our judeo christian values. In the name of Allah , thousands of Americans were recently killed on their own soil
The goal of Islam is to conquer the world. Whoever wants to follow this ideology is free to do it but not here.We can maintain political and business ties with Muslim countries but we must stop their teachings and taking over in the USA .
We must defend our values and freedom .Jesus said pray for your enemy , he did not say . live with him and let him share your home. ...... big difference

Those aren't "honor killings."

So, bug off, Mohammedan Bug.

Yom: "Despite her father's (and to a small extent.. her mother's) best efforts he started to "lose" her daughter more and more. As time went by, in a desperate attempt to rescue the situation he tried to arrange her marriage ...a perfectly legal and parentel right to do so."

Yom, she was 20 years old. He had no legal or parental rights over her in this country.

Yom the idiot.

"Remember, western countries have had a 600 year head start on muslim countries and only recently in the 60s did all Americans receive full human rights and Jim Crow laws were abolished"

Right, and how did that situation come to pass? If you were around in the south in the 60's, and a conversation was going on criticizing the culture of the white segregationists, and questioning what they were being taught in church, would you have piped into the conversation with "we really shouldn't criticize them, because there are lots of lynchings in the Islamic world, too."? I really don't understand your logic at all, and I think you have a very warped view of Christianity. Do you really see Jesus as being silent when witnessing sinful behavior? I just thank God that Wilberforce and Martin Luther King Jr. (and Boehoeffer, for that matter) had a VERY different understanding of Christianity than you.

"The fact that there are numerous secular muslim countries shows that the Koran/Hadith cannot override the free will in numerous muslim govts to adopt secular laws instead of laws based on Sharia or at least the strict aspects of Sharia, so there does exist progressive movements within muslim countries like Turkey..."

Now, you do have some slight understanding of why Turkey is secular, and of Ataturk's opinion of and approach to Islam?

I always find it humorous when the pro-Islam people point to Turkey as an example of a secular Islamic country, when it was made that way exactly by policies that they would denounce as "hatefully Islamophobic".

GMcCal,

yom the idiot

Well, yes and no.

She is a troll and troll's business is to disrupt, confuse and steal attention by all means suiting troll's mental niveau.
Being an idiot, her choice of sending in idiocies accomplishes her objective and is therefore a clever move. You, by responding to her garbage, were instrumental in her reaching her objective. She rightly counted on you.

Thank Goodness everybody else who's been here for some time ignores the ninny.

Duh,

"Most of the posters here understand this problem very well already...No regular poster here is 'ignorant' on these subjects"...

What a stupid asnine comment that is...."you DON'T understand the problem at all!"...you simply think that you do; DS...you personally are only interested in only bad mouthing and name calling from some platform, I see this from you everyday...your posts are often nothing short of disgusting.

Yes Faleh did bad, yes Faleh should have been courageous enough to stand up like a man for his actions...he could have cleared his mind and upheld his convictions for his extended family to see...these are the things that he did wrong!

Whilst the end result was disastereous, actually trying to rebuild his family, to wrest his daughter away from some crafy dirty kuffar who was possibly peneterating her with a dirty uncircumcised penis would have been way too much for any muslim to bear.

We LOVE our children and I fully realise that you give up on your children...in the name of "love and freedom" when clearly your child has little understanding of either.

Love and understanding is build up in one's own community and their values, without the need to think about children who have kuffar gene blood running through them.

Faleh could not let go...because he was committed and loved his daughter very much...he did it for her!

Ofcourse since you have so few cultural values...all this will go above your airy fairy blonde head....

my advice to kuffar is..."leave our women alone for us to bring up within our cultural values"

Yom

"Thank Goodness everybody else who's been here for some time ignores the ninny."

You'd better go back and check the comments in other posts. Many people who have been here for a long time respond to Yom's inanities.

When Yom makes stupid assertions about her cult, I will continue to call them out as stupid assertions.

I will continue to "deride" the actions of sociopaths. You can do as you like. But I will not stand still while this inhumanity exists. I would call Islamic culture barbaric but that is an insult to barbarians everywhere.

Do good, resist evil.

Montedoro44: "Get over the send-em-all-back stuff and name-calling and make some real suggestions."

You want real suggestions? Robert and others have posted real suggestions many times. Here is the most recent post of October 19th that Robert mentions these:

"Memo to Dallas Muslims: want to make sure there is no backlash? Here are some easy steps.

1. Stop committing violent acts. When you hear Muslims plotting violent acts in your local mosque, call the police and FBI.

2. Confront those Muslims who justify violence and Islamic supremacism by reference to the Qur'an and Sunnah, and argue against the applicability of those passages to our age or any other age in the future.

3. Confront and report those Muslims who say violent or hateful things in private when they think no non-Muslims are around.

4. Begin comprehensive and transparently inspectable programs in your mosques and schools to teach against the ideas of violent jihad and Islamic supremacism, and the virtues of the U.S. Constitutional principles of non-establishment of religion, equality of rights for all, and freedom of speech.

5. Actively work with Western law enforcement officials on long-range programs to identify and apprehend jihadists and root out the jihad doctrine and Islamic supremacism from within Western Muslim communities."

Source: http://www.jihadwatch.org/2009/10/after-jihad-terror-arrest-dallas-muslims-pledge-new-cooperation-with-fbi-anti-terror-programs-in-mos.html

Those real enough for you?

Your despised Leftists can hold up some of these comments and use them to embarrass Robert. Do you want to make his job harder? - I think Robert can handle himself in these matters. Anyway, since Robert clearly didn't write whatever might be used and clearly states that posts here do not constitute endorsement such tactics are pointless. If people wish to dismiss Robert's arguments and viewpoint based on what some JW posters say then I argue there is hardly a blog out there that they would not dismiss for similar cause.

"Love and understanding is build up in one's own community and their values, without the need to think about children who have kuffar gene blood running through them."

At the risk of bothering those who feel that engagement is a lost cause (and they may well be right in your case), I will nonetheless proceed:

Do you not realize that your community does not exist in an insular bubble, shut off from the rest of the society in which it is permitted to thrive?

As a Christian, I see, hear, and read much every day that runs antithetical to my faith, my worldview, my sincerely held-to convictions. But should this translate into never leaving my house? Never allowing my own children to engage in friendships with those of differing faiths and/or ideals? Should I move our family to some desert enclave, where we would be free from all of the worldly things that would wage war against our hearts and minds?

No.

Because that faith of which I speak is not rooted upon what I do wrong, fail to do, or even do correctly. That faith is not based upon some capricious balance-beam of an ideology that demands some rigorous adherence to self-loathing practices like self-flagellation and dietary restrictions which prohibit that which God has already declared 'clean.'

All in the hope that, in the end, it will somehow be enough.

It never could.

Ever.

If God Himself (in the incarnation of Jesus, the Christ) is not the one to make atonement for your unending blasphemies against Him, against yourself, and against others, then there exists no hope whatsoever.

I speak not from some (theologically) liberal Christian stance that embraces the multi-cult nonsense, but of one that continues to offer forth nothing less (and nothing more) than this. The axiom that there exists 'no compulsion in religion' falls flat when one considers the quickening of the Spirit in the soul; after all, if God Himself cannot compel you with the testimony of His Word, then I fear that nothing can.

Is your faith as strong as that? Is it strong enough to compel you to pray more, to engage your neighbor more? To acknowledge your own powerlessness?

Or is it weak enough to allow you to capitulate to your own self-righteous rage, and dare to defend somebody that 'loves' their own daughter enough to run her over in order to 'save' her?

Which is it to be?

Please, please...please...

...ease off of the throttle of thrashing what you refer to as 'Western values,' because I truly don't believe that you understand what they actually are.

Spiritually speaking, if the Son sets one free, then they are free, indeed; societally speaking, however, human dignity must triumph over such vulgar, pedestrian, ham-fisted (d'oh!) coercion if we are to continue to coexist as friends and neighbors-words that can ill-afford the sort of behavior that this man has so brazenly displayed.

There remains no place in America for thuggish theocracy for this very reason.

Many people who have been here for a long time respond to Yom's inanities.

Yes, indeed, there are others. The more the merrier

How very reassuring it must be for you to know you are not alone who finds satisfaction sparring intellectually with an idiot.

And Yom must simply love you for all the attention.

Many people who have been here for a long time respond to Yom's inanities.

Yes, indeed, there are others. The more the merrier

How very reassuring it must be for you to know you are not alone who finds satisfaction sparring intellectually with an idiot.

And Yom must simply love you for all the attention.

"How very reassuring it must be for you to know you are not alone who finds satisfaction sparring intellectually with an idiot."

I'm glad that you have finally come around and agree that Yom is an idiot, when in an earlier post you seemed a bit unsure:

"yom the idiot. Well, yes and no."

Welcome aboard.

"hate is not only from muslims or among muslims, the ideology of hate resides in all communities, muslim and non-muslim"

What you HAVE TO explain though, is why is "hate" and killing and rape a holy thing in Islam.
When the rest of humanity consider these things vile.
And why are you as a Muslim taught to try to cover up these facts?

This should be the most obvious sign to you that mohammed was a liar. How can you be so thick to buy his story?

Salam,

Faleh felt that Noor betrayed his "Iraqi" values. Is that a euphemism for "Islamic" values?

Don't know...but they are my values too...and I am from Pakistan...any kuffar touching my daughter is like a virus infecting me too.

What specifically are those "values"? What is the connection between Islam and honor killings?
Don't know...but if they touch or affect my family, then I am interested in protecting them to the best of my ability. I am a learned man...and I would try my bet to put forward the logical argument.

Assuming that you live in an Islamic community in America,
You assume wrong!

Is it your purpose here to bring about the ascendancy of Islam, promote sharia to replace the constitution of the USA?
LOL, what a loaded question that is! I am here to provide a safe and conducive environment for my family to live normally. As for promoting Islam and talking about shariat...no one is better at promoting this than the kuffar himself...we hardly talk about it...we don't need to...you do all the leg work for us. I am not looking for shariat specifically ...but if it comes along...hey I'll take it because I feel that it will "provide a safe and conducive environment for my family to live normally".

How much desire would you say exists in your community to assimilate?
If it helps my business and it is not against my "life experience" principles...I'll assimilate". If this means that I could lose my daughter...because her community values slip...then f**k the assimilation...I'd rather keep my daughter ...thank you very much"

Are there reformers in your community?
Yes ...you can assume that I am a reformer.

What are the local imams saying about this event?
they are sad, we mourn the loss of a beautiful muslima, but we all know the real killer is American values.

Is anyone saying that Faleh was wrong to kill his daughter, or only that he was wrong to run?
He was wrong to run, he tried his best to keep his family together,we all know the real killer, so why run

Does Faleh misunderstand Islam?
Faleh misunderstands his daughter, he wished that he understood Islam better....he would not be in this prediciment if he did.

Yom

Pulsar182, you stated :

he certainly feels it is an honor to kill infidels...yep Islam..feel the love?

Comment :

I dont know of any Ayatollahs ordering the killing of infidels and if so, why are non-muslims living in peace in numerous islamic countries ?

Tartine, you stated :

The goal of Islam is to conquer the world.

Comment :

There is no indication that the majority of muslims or muslim countries want to conquer the world.

Even Al-Qaeda in all its pronouncements does not have world conquest as the organization's goal.

Yes, at one time, the Pope authorized Spain and Portugal to take over the world but even as world powers, Spain and Portugal were not able to conquer the world.

Tartine, you stated :

We can maintain political and business ties with Muslim countries but we must stop their teachings and taking over in the USA .

Comment :

The fact that the CIA is telling US Presidents to maintain political, military and business ties with muslim countries is a glaring example that muslim countries are not a danger to America

Tartine, you stated :

Jesus said pray for your enemy , he did not say . live with him and let him share your home. ...... big difference

Comment :

Jesus said, pray for those who persecute you and love your enemies.

Jesus never said to kill the terrorist Romans or kill the enemy

Thomas_h,

What is your solution ?

45ch sez:

"
I dont know of any Ayatollahs ordering the killing of infidels and if so, why are non-muslims living in peace in numerous islamic countries ?"

hmmmm, don't get out much huh?...

In which Islamic countries are Christians,or Jews,or Hindus,or Catholics, or Buddists, or any other non Muslim "living in peace" with Muslims?...

Grand Ayatollah Mohammed Hussein Fadlallah is the same Islamic cleric that ordered the 1983 Muslim bombing of the Marine barracks in Lebanon, killing hundreds...

Ayatollah al-Sistani ordered attacks on US troops by Shiite militiamen loyal to the Shiite religious authorities in Najaf.

"Egyptian Cleric Zaghloul Al-Naggar: The Arab World Is Ruled By the Scum of the Earth and the Garbage of All Nations; I Am 'Absolutely' Calling to Wage Jihad Against the Jews, Who Are Devils in Human Form,"

"the clerics at Al-Azhar University, one of the leading authorities in the Islamic world, as a reliable guide to Sunni orthodoxy, stipulates that “the caliph makes war upon Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians...until they become Muslim or pay the non-Muslim poll tax.”

and the list just goes on and on...even a dolt can see the pattern...

"I dont know of any Ayatollahs ordering the killing of infidels and if so, why are non-muslims living in peace in numerous islamic countries?"

You mean like the Christian Copts in Egypt?

The Saudi Sheikh Saleh Al-Lehadan, head of the Supreme Judiciary Council, told Al Watan daily, (March 25, 2008) “After getting rid of the Jews in our Arab land, we must turn to the Christians. They have three options: either they convert to Islam, or leave, or pay Jizia (protection taxes). Further, there is not such a thing as Shiites, Sufis, etc. There are only Sunnis. All these sects must renounce their pagan beliefs and return to Sunna, the right path of Islam.”

Muhammad Sayyid Al Tantawi, president of Al Azhar University approves of killing and maiming Christians, Jews, and other infidels. He added, “This is not my personal view. This what the Shari’a Law says, the law of Allah, the only valid law on the earth."

"If the Jews left Palestine to us, would we start loving them? Of course not ... They are enemies not because they occupied Palestine. They would have been enemies even if they did not occupy a thing," said Egyptian cleric Muhammad Hussein Ya'qoub. "... You must believe that we will fight, defeat, and annihilate them, until not a single Jew remains on the face of the Earth." (Al-Rahma TV (Egypt), Jan. 17, 2009)

Feel the love.

I am a practicing American Muslim and I realize that there are several disgusting people who call themselves Muslim, including this man. But the sad thing is how the media in America only shows these individual people and groups of radical Muslims. They don't mention the average Muslim living in America, who oppose the same terrorist ideas and acts as you or any other American would. Maybe if you read up on Islam yourself, rather than watching Fox News or CNN, you will see that the majority of Muslims are not after violence and hate, but only trying to practice the real Islam; not some crazy anti-everything religion. Please just open your eyes.

"but only trying to practice the real Islam..."

You mean like verse 9:5 in the Qur'an:

"So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."

If you are in fact a Muslim trying to practice the real Islam, wouldn't you have to obey God's own commands to slay all of us non-Muslim idolators?

Someone's eyes need opening, and they aren't mine.

hashemL :I am a practicing American Muslim

Still not too late to quit the cult.

hashemL :...and I realize that there are several disgusting people who call themselves Muslim, including this man.

Ah, the classic 'No True Scotsman' argument. He was a moslem doing what moslems do. As usual it involved violence.

hashemL But the sad thing is how the media in America only shows these individual people and groups of radical Muslims. They don't mention the average Muslim living in America, who oppose the same terrorist ideas and acts as you or any other American would.

Yes, I call those 'sleepers'. I have NEVER seen a public demo of moslems condemning fellow moslems barbaric actions unless it's accompanied with the old get-out clause of 'innocents'. We all know the kufr can't be innocent, right?

hashemL : Maybe if you read up on Islam yourself

Funny thing, that's where it all started for me. Read a copy of the quran, had moslem 'friends' back in the UK.

hashemL : rather than watching Fox News or CNN, you will see that the majority of Muslims are not after violence and hate, but only trying to practice the real Islam; not some crazy anti-everything religion. Please just open your eyes.

The neutered and PC MSM isn't the place to get the dirt on islam. Try Mosaic TV or any of the unfiltered sites on the Web.

I see molems actions and deeds for what they are. It saves so much time.

"I dont know of any Ayatollahs ordering the killing of infidels and if so, why are non-muslims living in peace in numerous islamic countries ?"

Living in peace? Why dont you ask the Pakistani Christians how they're being treated in Swat Valley and else where in Pakistan? Or the Bahais and evangelical Christians in Iran? The Copts in Egypt. Or better yet, the so called "Muslim Moderate" countries of Malaysia and Indonesia and its discrimination against its non muslim Chinese and Indian citizens?

I'm glad that you have finally come around and agree that Yom is an idiot, when in an earlier post you seemed a bit unsure:
"yom the idiot. Well, yes and no."

Yes, she is an idiot because she utters most outrageous idiocies.
And no, she is not an idiot because she gets you doing what she truly enjoys – sparring with her.

Her idiocy and her non-idiocy don’t collide because they belong to two different spheres of comprehension.
There is nothing here I am “a bit unsure” about.

Welcome aboard
Thank you, but no. Not yet

If you use the context form the earlier verses in the ninth surah, it says how the Muslims (who were clearly out numbered) and non-Muslims were at war at the time when this was revealed, which explains the Muslims' fighting in self defense of their enemy whose goal was to wipe out the small Muslim population.

verse 9:6
"If one of the pagans asks you for a place of safety give it to him, so that he may hear the Word of Allah (the Quran); And then take him to where he can be safe. That is because they are men without knowledge."

This is the next verse that refers to the pagans who were not hostile towards the Muslims. It says to give them a place of safety if they ask for it. It also says to expose them to the word of Allah, not to force them into the religion.

So no, I am not told to kill all non-Muslims. In fact, most of my friends are Jewish and Christian. I don't judge anybody by their religion and try my best to treat everyone with respect.

Yeah so how about a reliable source for these statistics?
Also, what kind of question is whether you put your country or religion first? What does it prove if one puts their religion before their country? Nothing. ALSO, it is not only Muslims who believe 9/11 was a government conspiracy. There are several non-Muslim Americans who believe this too. I personally believe it was carried out by a terrorist group.

"If you use the context form the earlier verses in the ninth surah..."

Ah, the old out of context argument.

I've seen too many examples of Muslims who seem to know exactly what that verse means and they act on it every single day somewhere around the world.

Out of context - tell it to your fellow Muslims who misunderstand that verse every day.

I don't buy it.

I believe I said earlier that I don't agree with any terrorist attacks having to do with religion. So I have nothing to do with the "fellow Muslims" that misinterpret this verse and several others like you are. Nobody cares if you "don't buy it." It's just the fact.

Nobody cares if GmcCal doesn't buy it? I care. Loads of people care. Tons. Hey, it's just a fact.

Funny too how Presbyterians, Catholics, Buddhists, Jews, Lutherans, Hindus, Sikhs, etc. don't misinterpret any verse in their own scriptures that propel them to violence ad nauseam as is the case with Muslims everyday of every week of every year. As long as you defend Islam, you are a defender of the one religion which, quite simply, is evil. You're an enabler of malevolence whether you know it or not.

P.S. You don't.

Hesperado, you stated :

Deport All Muslims Now.

Repeat. Rinse. Repeat.

Comment :

You want to deport all muslims who could be future victims of honor killing ?

If muslims are deported, will the honor killings stop ?

At least in this country, our liberal progressive culture might have a mitigating effect on those with the murderous, cruel conservative ideas of "honor".

Thomas_h, you stated :

Katherine Zoepf reported in the New York Times, (September 23, 2007):
“Grand Ayatollah Mohammed Hussein Fadlallah, the top Shiite cleric and spiritual leader of Hezbollah, issued a fatwa banning honor killing ...”

What Katherine Zoepf doesn’t report is that Grand-Grand Ayatollah Mohammed Hussein Fadlallah Assahoolla bin Drakkoollah clarified the former Ayatoolah fatwa with an amendment stating that defending the muzzlum honour is a too important an issue for the Ummah to be left to private persons, and must be carried out publicly by either a hangman employed by the Ministry of Virtue, or a stoning crowd (not more than 12) of virtuous muzzlems appointed by the Ministry which will also supply the suitable, Koran approved, rocks.

The amendment ends with words “Allahu Akbar - Ordnung Muss Sein”.

(He also issued a fatwa against the “Zionist Viper - New York Times” for “spreading islam – hostile lies”)

Comment :

That fatwa is not being followed by numerous muslim countries including countries like Malaysia and Turkey

Darcy,

Do the victims of murder know that they are being killed due to saving "honor" or they are being murdered due to a jealous boyfriend or husband ?

Victims do not care whether its honor killing or due to jealousy, they still feel the same pain, torture and horrendous suffering.

So saying crimes of passion is not really honor killing is not material especially to the victims of these horrible crimes.

The sad fact is that crimes of passion are much more prevalent in America than honor killing.

The United Nations Population Fund (UNFPA) estimates that the annual worldwide total of honor-killing victims may be as high as 5,000.

Compare that figure to 1460-2000 annual murders due to jealous boyfriends or husbands in the US alone, so worldwide, crimes of passion should be much much higher than honor killings.

ref : ref : http://www.soundvision.com/Info/domesticviolence/statistics.asp

plotino, you stated :

You know that sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace."

Comment :

What did Jesus mean by " blessed are the Peacemakers", "love your enemies" and "pray for those who persecute you" ?

Why did Jesus not retaliate against the mob that was trying to kill Him ?

Why did Jesus tell the Jews to flee Jerusalem instead of protecting it from the terrorist Romans ?

Why did Jesus send the Holy Spirit to inspire His followers to show the power of God through love and not through swords ?

plotino, you stated :

Can you please choose one of those "secular muslims countries" from your list and buy a one way ticket to stay there? Will you?

Comment :

I am in the US for a purpose and if God wanted me to be in a secular muslim country, He will show me the way.

Even in Malaysia which is not a secular muslim country, non-muslims can wear skimpy clothing even in the Sharia states in Malaysia and many non-muslim families in Malaysia told me they live in peace with their muslim neighbors.

Have you been to muslim countries ?

some of them are like paradise on earth, since not only are they family oriented, anti-pornography and anti-abortion, they invest money on how their infrastructure and buildings look, unlike the US govt which invests its money on the warfare state, the military/industrial complex and weapons of mass destruction.

Boston Tea Party , you stated :

Do you really see Jesus as being silent when witnessing sinful behavior? I just thank God that Wilberforce and Martin Luther King Jr. (and Boehoeffer, for that matter) had a VERY different understanding of Christianity than you.

Comment :

During Jesus time, the terrorist Romans were crucifying dissident Jews on a regular basis and committing massacres.

Jesus was only interested in saving the souls of men but He was not going to stop the terrorist Romans because in Jesus Mind, all persons wrongfully put to death will go to heaven.

Martin Luther King was wrong in not making peace with his enemies and I would have told him to make peace with all his enemies and that civil rights is not as important as the saving of men's souls, as Jesus did.

Boston Tea Party, you stated :

I always find it humorous when the pro-Islam people point to Turkey as an example of a secular Islamic country, when it was made that way exactly by policies that they would denounce as "hatefully Islamophobic".

Comment :

So muslims are capable of being "hatefully islamophobic" which proves that the Koran/Hadith cannot override the free will of any muslim unless that particular muslim has a criminal mind

Hesperado stated :

Thomas_h and pulsar182 nicely refuted one of the myriad apologetic claims of "45ch" -- this particular one concerning the supposedly progressive fatwa banning honor killings by a Hezbollah Grand Ayatollah, in their posts:

Comment :

I was merely responding to a poster who suggested that no one in the muslim world was calling for "honor killing" to be stopped.

The following are some muslim countries where honor killing is illegal :

Turkey: In Turkey, persons found guilty of this crime are sentenced to life in prison. There are well documented cases, where Turkish courts have sentenced whole families to life imprisonment for an honor killing. The most recent was on January 13, 2009, where a Turkish Court sentenced five members of the same Kurdish family to life imprisonment for the "honour killing" of Naile Erdas, 16, who got pregnant as a result of rape

Pakistan: On December 8, 2004, Pakistan enacted a law that made honor killings punishable by a prison term of seven years, or by the death penalty in the most extreme cases. In November 2006, a bill was passed which sought to strengthen the law against the practice of honor killing.

Egypt
Burkina Faso
Chad
Gambia
Guinea
Mali
Senegal
Somalia
Kazakhstan
Kyrgystan
Tajikstan
Turkmenistan
Uzbekistan
Albania
Azerbaijan
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Kosovo

Hesperado stated :

The particular tactic of 45ch is to inundate a thread with a galaxy of factoids, each one of which requires effort, sometimes considerable in tracking down multiple links etc., to refute, thereby hoping that most of them will sow seeds of doubt in a certain number of readers.

Comment :

No tactics involved in my discussions :

My agenda is very clear.

Jesus said " blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called children of God".

I am on the side of Jesus and being on His side, I know I am going to be blessed in my life.

Hatred only consumes a person's soul and that is one reason why so many people attract danger to their lives, like cancer.

You will be blessed by God if you are a full-time peacemaker, making peace between christians and muslims and vice versa.

That is my agenda because more often than not, conflict results in war and the victims of war are mostly children, the weak, the poor, the handicapped and the old while the so-called adults make war and send the young to their deaths all in the name of patriotism and duty while the rich and powerful in the military/industrial complex profit from war as they "laugh all the way to the bank".

Hesperado stated :

It can be guaranteed that any one of the multitude of factoids 45ch sprays into the room, if examined closely, will dissipate as did the one refuted by Thomas_h and pulsar182.

Comment :

Please read the comments made to Thomas_h and Pulsar182, thanks.

Thomas_h, you stated :

"Remember, western countries have had a 600 year head start on muslim countries ...".

Which means we can never share the same TIME with izlum.
And neither should we share the same SPACE with that horrid cult!

Comment :

Its ok to share the same "time" with muslims because unlike the western world that took almost 1800 years to become secular, numerous muslim countries that should have taken another 400 years to become secular ( according to the western time line ) have already become secular ( religious muslim laws are not the law of the land in these countries ) :

Burkina Faso
Chad
Gambia
Guinea
Mali
Senegal
Somalia
Kazakhstan
Kyrgystan
Tajikstan
Turkmenistan
Uzbekistan
Albania
Azerbaijan
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Kosovo

Any religion can be considered a horrid cult, but most people within their religion do not follow the strict aspects of their religion, just as Jews today do not follow the command in Deut 20:16 to commit genocide against all non-jews in the promised land, the area between the Mediterranean and Iraq.

Thomas_h, you stated :

DAMN! - Deport All Muzzlems Now from western countries.

Comment :

Would it not be better to have muslims in western countries to protect some of them from being "honor" killed ?

Dumbledoresarmy,

Life is short, so you should be spending your time winning the hearts of muslims to Christ.

Join our agenda :

My agenda is very clear.

Jesus said " blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called children of God".

I am on the side of Jesus and being on His side, I know I am going to be blessed in my life.

Hatred only consumes a person's soul and that is one reason why so many people attract danger to their lives, like cancer.

You will be blessed by God if you are a full-time peacemaker, making peace between christians and muslims and vice versa.

That is my agenda because more often than not, conflict results in war and the victims of war are mostly children, the weak, the poor, the handicapped and the old while the so-called adults make war and send the young to their deaths all in the name of patriotism and duty while the rich and powerful in the military/industrial complex profit from war as they "laugh all the way to the bank".

Thomas_h,

Life is too short to be hating and wanting all muslims to be deported.

What about protecting those muslims who might be victims of honor killing ? do you want to deport them too ?

Life is too short to be hating and hating will not win the souls of muslims.

Join our agenda :

Jesus said " blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called children of God".

I am on the side of Jesus and being on His side, I know I am going to be blessed in my life.

Hatred only consumes a person's soul and that is one reason why so many people attract danger to their lives, like cancer.

You will be blessed by God if you are a full-time peacemaker, making peace between christians and muslims and vice versa.

That is my agenda because more often than not, conflict results in war and the victims of war are mostly children, the weak, the poor, the handicapped and the old while the so-called adults make war and send the young to their deaths all in the name of patriotism and duty while the rich and powerful in the military/industrial complex profit from war as they "laugh all the way to the bank".

Pulsar182,

6-7% of all human beings, whether muslim or non-muslim, support terrorism as the Gallup poll showed.

If you ask whether the deliberate killings of the residents of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were justified, you will come up with about 6% of Americans supporting the deliberate killing of the innocent.

You can even see the comments by Americans on youtube regarding the killing of children in Hiroshima and Nagasaki and they will tell you that sometimes, terrorism is a necessary evil that brought the war with Japan to an end.

Whether 100 or 200 million muslims support terrorism world wide does not mean those very people will actively support terrorism, just as 6% of Americans who support terrorism does not mean they will have given material support to a person like Timothy McVeigh.

Take the example of hate crimes against muslims in America. If you come to the conclusion that gallup is right and 6% of Americans not only support terrorism but are actively involved in terrorism, the actual record does not show anywhere close to 6% of Americans actually involved in hate crimes against muslims.

The targeting of innocent minorities for alleged crimes/sins perpetrated by others is common everywhere, including the US : In 2001 after the 9/11 attacks, Arab Americans, Muslims, and Sikhs were victimized in nearly five percent of the total number of hate crimes reported that year (481 out of 9,730), a seventeen-fold increase over the prior year.

ref : http://www.civilrights.org/publications/hatecrimes/arab-americans.html

So there were 481 hate crimes against Arab Americans/muslims/sikhs and even though its a 17 fold increase over the prior year before 9/11/2001 but that still does not come close to the 6% of Americans supporting terrorism as reported by gallup.

So likewise, even though 100 to 200 million muslims support terrorism, Osama Bin Laden could not recruit any of the millions of American muslims to actually be involved in terrorism.

CONCLUSION :

Supporting terrorism does not translate to actually being involved in terrorism as seen by the evidence above.

Hate is a human condition and is not solely from or among muslims.

There is plenty of goings-on in the western world that probably will dwarf anything happening in a similar non-war zone setting in the muslim world. (example : American man beats up woman while spewing racial slurs : http://www.womanist-musings.com/2009/09/black-woman-gets-beaten-in-public-and.html )

The targeting of innocent minorities for alleged crimes/sins perpetrated by others is common everywhere, including the US : In 2001 after the 9/11 attacks, Arab Americans, Muslims, and Sikhs were victimized in nearly five percent of the total number of hate crimes reported that year (481 out of 9,730), a seventeen-fold increase over the prior year.

ref : http://www.civilrights.org/publications/hatecrimes/arab-americans.html

The following statistics of hate crimes in the US does not mean all Americans are involved in hate crimes, just as hate crime statistics in jihad watch does not mean all muslims are involved in anyway in hate crimes :

As documented by the FBI's 2007 HCSA report:

Approximately 51 percent of the reported hate crimes were race-based, with 18.4 percent on the basis of religion, 16.6 percent on the basis of sexual orientation, and 13.2 percent on the basis of ethnicity.

Approximately 69 percent of the reported race-based crimes were directed against blacks, 19 percent of the crimes were directed against whites, and 4.9 percent of the crimes were directed against Asians or Pacific Islanders. The number of hate crimes directed against individuals on the basis of their national origin/ethnicity increased to 1,007 in 2007 from 984 in 2006.

For the fourth year in a row, the number of reported crimes directed against Hispanics increased — from 576 in 2006 to 595 in 2007.

Though the overall number of hate crimes decreased slightly, the number of hate crimes directed at gay men and lesbians increased almost six percent — from 1,195 in 2006 to 1,265 in 2007.

Religion-based crimes decreased, from 1,462 in 2006 to 1,400 in 2007, but the number of reported anti-Jewish crimes increased slightly, from 967 in 2006 to 969 in 2007 — 12.7 percent of all hate crimes reported in 2007 — and 69 percent of the reported hate crimes based on religion.

Reported crimes against Muslims decreased from 156 to 115, 8.2 percent of the religion-based crimes. This is still more than four times the number of hate crimes reported against Muslims in 2000.

In contrast to the FBI's HCSA data, the U.S. Department of Justice Bureau of Justice Statistics in 2005 reported sharply higher numbers of hate crimes committed in the U.S.:

An annual average of 210,000 US hate crime victimizations occurred from July 2000 through December 2003. During that period an average of 191,000 hate crime incidents involving one or more victims occurred annually. Victims also indicated that 92,000 of these hate crime victimizations were reported to police. These estimates were derived from victim reports to the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) of the Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS).

ref : http://www.civilrights.org/publications/hatecrimes/nature-and-magnitude.html

HourglassF, you stated :

"I dont know of any Ayatollahs ordering the killing of infidels and if so, why are non-muslims living in peace in numerous islamic countries ?"

Living in peace? Why dont you ask the Pakistani Christians how they're being treated in Swat Valley and else where in Pakistan? Or the Bahais and evangelical Christians in Iran? The Copts in Egypt. Or better yet, the so called "Muslim Moderate" countries of Malaysia and Indonesia and its discrimination against its non muslim Chinese and Indian citizens?

Comment :

I did not mean all non-muslims in muslim countries are living in peace but the majority of non-muslims in muslim countries are living in peace, especially in non-war zone muslim countries like Malaysia.

But in a war zone, the most despicable things happen on both sides as seen in the terrorism of the Tamil Tigers against the cruel actions of the Sri Lanka govt or the terrorism of the IRA against the cruel actions of the British govt or the past terrorism of native Americans due to the cruel actions of the US govt., so the incidents you pointed out in war zone countries like Pakistan or Egypt ( next to the Gaza war zone ) or in Iran ( next to the war zone in Iraq/Afghanistan ) is not surprising.

Some minorities in every country would feel persecuted or discriminated against ( example : ask numerous American blacks about how the police treat them )

In a 1999 report, Amnesty International said it had "documented patterns of ill-treatment across the U.S., including police beatings, unjustified shootings and the use of dangerous restraint techniques."

According to a 1998 Human Rights Watch report, incidents of police use of excessive force had occurred in cities throughout the U.S., and this behavior goes largely unchecked.

An article in USA Today reports that in 2006, 96% of cases referred to the U.S. Justice Department for prosecution by investigative agencies were declined. In 2005, 98% were declined.

In 2001, the New York Times reported that the U.S. government is unable or unwilling to collect statistics showing the precise number of people killed by the police or the prevalence of the use of excessive force.

pulsar182, you stated :

In which Islamic countries are Christians,or Jews,or Hindus,or Catholics, or Buddists, or any other non Muslim "living in peace" with Muslims?...

Comment :

I did not mean all non-muslims in muslim countries are living in peace but the majority of non-muslims in muslim countries are living in peace, especially in non-war zone muslim countries like Malaysia.

But in a war zone, the most despicable things happen on both sides as seen in the terrorism of the Tamil Tigers against the cruel actions of the Sri Lanka govt or the terrorism of the IRA against the cruel actions of the British govt or the past terrorism of native Americans due to the cruel actions of the US govt., so violence against minorities in war zone countries like Pakistan or Egypt ( next to the Gaza war zone ) or in Iran ( next to the war zone in Iraq/Afghanistan ) is not surprising,that is, if the reports are true .

Some minorities in every country would feel persecuted or discriminated against ( example : ask numerous American blacks about how the police treat them )

In a 1999 report, Amnesty International said it had "documented patterns of ill-treatment across the U.S., including police beatings, unjustified shootings and the use of dangerous restraint techniques."

According to a 1998 Human Rights Watch report, incidents of police use of excessive force had occurred in cities throughout the U.S., and this behavior goes largely unchecked.

An article in USA Today reports that in 2006, 96% of cases referred to the U.S. Justice Department for prosecution by investigative agencies were declined. In 2005, 98% were declined.

In 2001, the New York Times reported that the U.S. government is unable or unwilling to collect statistics showing the precise number of people killed by the police or the prevalence of the use of excessive force.

pulsar182, you stated :

Grand Ayatollah Mohammed Hussein Fadlallah is the same Islamic cleric that ordered the 1983 Muslim bombing of the Marine barracks in Lebanon, killing hundreds...

Ayatollah al-Sistani ordered attacks on US troops by Shiite militiamen loyal to the Shiite religious authorities in Najaf.

"Egyptian Cleric Zaghloul Al-Naggar: The Arab World Is Ruled By the Scum of the Earth and the Garbage of All Nations; I Am 'Absolutely' Calling to Wage Jihad Against the Jews, Who Are Devils in Human Form,"

"the clerics at Al-Azhar University, one of the leading authorities in the Islamic world, as a reliable guide to Sunni orthodoxy, stipulates that “the caliph makes war upon Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians...until they become Muslim or pay the non-Muslim poll tax.”

and the list just goes on and on...even a dolt can see the pattern...

Comment :

As I said before, in war zones or next to war zones, the most despicable things happen on both sides.

Bombings by the US govt create collateral deaths of muslim children which in turn fuels recruiting propaganda for more terrorists to hit back at US troops as in Lebanon where some muslims saw the US military backing of "christian" militias that were involved in the massacre of muslim civilians including children.

Thanks for the support, Wellington. Your posts are some of the most astute and on-point of all the commenters on the site. Appreciate it.

Boston Tea Party, you stated :

So Jesus didn't have a problem with murder, since innocent people go to heaven? That's quite a theology you've got there. I must say, I'm fairly well-read in regards to Christianity, and I've not heard your approach espoused by...well...anyone.....ever.

Comment :

I never said Jesus did not have a problem with murder because Jesus is going to judge all those who do commit murder on Judgement day but He is not going to judge anybody for murder before Judgement day

Jesus used the same reasoning as God when God allowed the murder of 6 million Jews at the hands of the Nazis.

What other explanation can you give , why God allowed 6 million jews to be murdered ?

Salam Thomas,

Jesus abondoned the christians... centuaries ago and you are still harping on about the same thing....salvation?

The Egyptians, sudanese, somalians, turks, (all who used to be christian at one time or other) BEGGED Jesus for help, for christian salvation, for (at least 1) christian victory, for a christian leader, a christian avatar....and you know as well as I do...none came.

All these countries are and will remain Islamic....and now you see the same thing in Europe.

You keep saying deport us....but you are not charge see, indeed as more muslims enter/are born in Europe and America, more leaders of our muslim faith will appear....making the possibility of deportation LESS and LESS likely...didn't Jesus pBUH tell you that in your dream mate...tch! tch! never mind....I'll tell you instead.

Please prepare and welcome us...thank you...Allah SWT will reward your efforts.

Yom

Boston Tea Party, you stated :

the West sought peace at any cost, and instead chose to appease the Nazis instead of standing up against sin. As is always the case, appeasement of evil and a desire to peacefully coexist with sin enable sin to flourish and prosper.

Comment :

Are you saying that Jesus should have stopped the terrorist Romans from crucifying and massacring jews ?

Foolster41, you stated :
45ch/Loveverybody: You know very well I blew some of those "secular" names off your list, and that some of those countries practice strict sharia law, including amputations, stonings and jailing of apostates. Yet you ignore that and keep posting the list. If facts, don't agree with you, ignore it, ne?

Comment :

Please answer the questions below, thanks.

Most laws have some religious component to it, for example : In 1778 Thomas Jefferson wrote a law in Virginia which contained a punishment of castration for men who engage in homosexuality.

That does not mean that the US was ruled by Sharia or religious laws because having religious laws on the books does not mean those laws are enforced in a secular state.

QUESTION (1) : How many of the following secular muslim govts. actually carry out amputations, stonings or jailing apostates ? :

Burkina Faso
Chad
Gambia
Guinea
Mali
Senegal
Somalia
Kazakhstan
Kyrgystan
Tajikstan
Turkmenistan
Uzbekistan
Albania
Azerbaijan
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Kosovo

QUESTION 2: And out of those secular muslim govts. actually carrying out amputations, stonings or jailing apostates, how often do they take place ?

QUESTION 3 : And out of those secular muslim govts. actually carrying out the strict aspects of Sharia, do we have any CIA reports stating that those muslim countries are a danger to America ?

QUESTION 4: Since the US govt has close ties to Saudi Arabia ( a strict Sharia state ), could the close ties be due to CIA reports that declare Sharia states to be harmless to the security of the US ?

Your criticism of the list of secular muslim countries is based on cruel laws and if indeed they have laws that are cruel towards criminals, then I would agree with you but at the same time you have not shown any evidence that having strict sharia laws in turn harms the security of any western nation or that any of the muslim countries on that list are a danger to the western world

Foolster41, you stated :

YOM: GET OUT OF THE WEST NOW YOU FASCIST!
I don't think there are any other words. You basically said "she deserved it" and that being a non-muslim is a disease. Ha!

Comment :

What Yom is saying, falls under what we call "free speech" and he has every right to say what he is saying and you have every right to criticize him.

Has Yom crossed the line to hate speech ? that is up to the FBI to decide if they want to open a covert operation against Yom to see whether he is going beyond free speech but I did not see him encouraging others to violence.

He seems to be explaining what goes on in the mind of a dad who is honor bound to make sure his daughter is faithful to her faith.

Honor killings are cruel and evil, no matter what the daughter has done, just as the thousands of crimes of passion in America committed by jealous boyfriends and husbands are evil.

Yom, you stated :

Please prepare and welcome us...thank you...Allah SWT will reward your efforts.

Comment :

I notice that many muslims are polite, so keep up the good work

Foolster

well done. I applaud your persistence, for I think 45 ch is surely one of the worst and most thoroughly diabolical of the various Mohammedan dementors that we have encountered here - and I've been posting since 2007, and have read almost all of the discussions preserved in the archives, so I have seen plenty of other examples of the species.

Here is an excerpt from M Scott Peck's study of human evil, 'People of the Lie', of which I am frequently reminded, when reading exchanges between regulars here, and certain of our Mohammedan visitors.

I am also reminded of it when I read, preserved in the archives, extensive exchanges between Mr Spencer himself and certain Mohammedan apologists.

It is from the chapter entitled, 'Of Possession and Exorcism'. Peck had - as a secular psychologist - actually witnessed and taken part in what he firmly believed to be two cases of exorcism, the real thing not the Hollywood variety.

In the course of his description of that experience, he notes: "silence seemed the most effective of the many means used for the final penetration of the Pretence' [by 'Pretence' he means the way in which the demonic hides within and behind the affected person].

'The team would speak either with the patient's healthy core personality

{note: Peck is speaking of a situation in which there *is* such a core personality that has sought help; this differs from the situation here at jihadwatch, since the Mohammedan dementors are not normally, I would say, anywhere near being capable of recognising they're 'possessed' (so to speak) or seeking help to get free; though in our often utterly futile attempts to somehow get past the granite wall of the 'Islam' to a presumed remnant of potentially-rational-and-empathetic human being within our Mohammedan interlocutor, we do resemble the exorcism team - dda}.

'or the demon/s, but would refuse to speak with some unclear mixture of the two.

"It took some time before the team in each case became adept at doing this.

{Now here's the part I want you and others here to read very, very carefully - dda}.

"For the demon itself seemed to have a marked ability to draw the exorcist or team into confusing conversation that went nowhere". END QUOTE.

Let's have that sentence again:

'A marked ability to draw...into confusing conversation that went nowhere'.

*That* is precisely what all our more long-winded Mohammedan dementors, especially the latest, '45ch', are *brilliant* at doing.

Much earlier in the book, Peck observes that one of the cardinal marks, or symptoms, of gross and inveterate evil in a human being, is the ability to create confusion in those who encounter it.

QUOTE "There is another reaction {besides revulsion, which he also mentions as a normal reaction to evil - dda} that the evil frequently engender in us: confusion.

"Describing an encounter with an evil person, one woman wrote, it was ‘as if I’d suddenly lost my ability to think’.

'Once again, this reaction is quite appropriate. Lies confuse. The evil are ‘the people of the lie’, deceiving others as they also build layer upon layer of self-deception." END QUOTE

My own policy when there is an outburst of Mohammedan noise on a particular thread, is to go right back up to the posted article and reread it; on the principle that it must contain something important which the Mohammedans do not want us, at all costs, to see and think about.

"My own policy when there is an outburst of Mohammedan noise on a particular thread, is to go right back up to the posted article and reread it..."

Good advice for all of us. Thanks, DDA

Unveiled, you stated :
"hate is not only from muslims or among muslims, the ideology of hate resides in all communities, muslim and non-muslim"

What you HAVE TO explain though, is why is "hate" and killing and rape a holy thing in Islam.
When the rest of humanity consider these things vile.
And why are you as a Muslim taught to try to cover up these facts?

Comment :

You need to explain how Islam glorifies killing and rape and even if it does glorify those things, it does not mean muslims will blindly kill or rape anybody.

The Koran/Hadith cannot override the free will of anybody, just as murderous lyrics in a song or a gun does not force anybody to kill.

A criminal muslim will always find an excuse to commit a crime and interpret verses in the Koran/Hadith as applicable today.

But a non-criminal muslim ( which is almost all muslims) will interpret verses in the Koran/Hadith as being applicable only during the time of Muhammad who did find a few jews guilty of treason.

If Islam never existed, would the world be better off ?

Before Islam came into existence, there did exist genocide.

Read Deut. 20:16 regarding a type of genocide that is not even commanded either in the Koran or the Hadiths.

Muhammad did kill one tribe of jews but he saved the women and children. Compare what Muhammad did with what happened in Deut 20:16 where all non-jew men, women, children and babies were killed from the Mediterranean sea to the present day Iraq.

Unveiled, you stated :

This should be the most obvious sign to you that mohammed was a liar. How can you be so thick to buy his story?

Comment :

I dont buy anything Islam says and almost all muslims dont buy it either because they interpret the adverse aspects of the Koran/Hadith as applicable to the times Muhammad lived in, just as Jews today look at Deut 20:16 as applicable only during the time of the Old Testament and Jews today are not going to take over the entire promised land from the Mediterranean sea to present day Iraq and kill every non-jew, including children and babies, in the promised land

Dumbledoresarmy,

The way you and I can help future victims of honor killing is by telling our govts not to deport all muslims because if all muslims are deported, how will we be able to prevent honor killings ?

You are more in danger from your non-muslim fellow citizens or jealous boyfriends/husbands or from the poisons the govt fails to prevent in everyday household items or foods than you are in danger from your muslim neighbors or a terrorist.

You are more in danger from cancer causing substances in food and everyday items, than you will ever be in danger from muslims or terrorists.

In your lifetime, you or your family are not going to be hurt by any muslim or terrorist.

If you are ever hurt by any muslim in a bad way, I will send you $1000 through paypal as my way of saying I was wrong.

PS proper documentation of injury needed for the payment to your paypal account

DDA,

I can not add anything to your incisive, elegantly written (as always) last comments except perhaps suggesting that JW should have on its home page a highly visible list, or a link to a list, of currently active mohammedan trolls accompanied by a short characterisation like degree of idiocy, nastiness, dishonesty, mendacity, tediousness, monotony, disgust provoking etc… Additionally it should have a list of links to some good replies from sharp and eloquent commenters, so those who feel like responding to trolls’ noise can judge if they can produce anything more astute, original, new or better worded and hopefully avoid wasting time, effort and bandwith replying to these parasites. We could jointly design the list, its structure, modules and write short, witty description of each troll.
What do you think about the idea? Should we forward it to JW staff?

DDA,

I somehow overloked your comment where you are making reference to M. Scott Peck, so I react with delay.
I was struck by the astuteness of the quoted by you observations about "people of lie". Absolutely true! I recall now I have read something about him and his quotes and it made quite an impression on me, but somehow I didn't follow any further. I see now that there is quite a lot about the man on the internet. I am going to buy the book

cheers,
Thomas

pulsar182, you stated :

I have gone over the crime statistics furnished by 45ch and found no indication that any of the crimes were supported by any religious entity....nor were any of the crimes dedicated to establishing a supreme leadership or new set of laws...the crime statistics furnished by 45ch appear to be just that..crime statistics...

Comment :

No crimes are supported by any religious entity including muslim organizations.

If a man starts a religion other than islam and then commits a crime based on his religious beliefs, does that mean his crime impacts his victims less than the victim of a muslim who commits a crime based on his religion ?

The crime statistics are about the ideology of hate and hate can be race based, religion based, sexual orientation based etc.

If a muslim commits a crime not based on religion, does that mean his victims suffer less than a victim of a muslim who commits a crime based on religion ?

Hate crimes are not only from some muslims or among muslims but hate crimes based on various ideologies can be found in every non-muslim community in America

Dumbledoresarmy,

I know you want peace in your life and I know you want peace in the life of all muslims, some of whom might be future victims of honor killing.

The way to peace is to be peacemaker, as Jesus said, "blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called children of God".

Hatred will only consume your soul like a cancer.

You cannot hate all muslims because some muslims are themselves victims of hate or crime and they need your love and support

I wish you well in your life but you have to help yourself by letting go of the hate and start befriending muslims and showing them the love of Christ and in so doing, they will come to know Christ through your witness.

Yom,

The hatred of some people shown in this forum does not reflect America.

Americans are kind and generous, just as almost all muslims are good people.

The people in this forum who hate do not realize that they are actually inviting danger into their lives because hate is like a cancer that consumes a person's soul which in turn attracts danger like cancer and other life threatening diseases

Pulsar182,you stated :

45ch sez:

"You need to explain how Islam glorifies killing and rape and even if it does glorify those things, it does not mean muslims will blindly kill or rape anybody."

It does (of course you already knew this) and they do (You already knew this too). I am sure you must have read your Qur'an....

Comment :

You need to explain in detail where the Koran glorifies killing and rape.

What do you mean by "they do " ?

All muslims do not think alike as evidenced by this poor girl being killed by her father

Foolster41,

You need to visit muslim countries like Malaysia and see for yourself that you do not have to be afraid of Sharia because in Malaysia, non-muslims can pretty much do anything they want, just like in the US.

Yes, the cruel aspects of Sharia need to be dealt with through dialog, financial and security incentives and I hope the US govt is doing that with its ally, Saudi Arabia

Thomas,

If your aim is to keep Americans safe, the only way to keep Americans safe is to make peace with the enemy because hatred never solved anything.

The only anti-dote to hate is love and when you love the enemy, the enemy will see that you are different from all others and will come to respect you and at least not want to harm you

...the enemy will ...at least not want to harm you

Stop threatening us, enemy.

We have better ways of keeping safe. One is a perfect separation from your hideous cult by Deporting All Muzzlums Now and the other I'd rather not mention here lest it will get me banned.

Otherwise fuck off, snake.

...sorry for that "fuck off, snake" part.

I, of course, meant "fuck off, rat".

Thomas,

Sorry if you feel threatened but you are inviting danger into your life due to hate.

I do hope the best for your life but you are not helping yourself.

Hatred consumes the soul and when the soul is being consumed it will lead to cancer or all kinds of diseases.

You want to deport all muslims ? including those who could be victims of future honor killings ?

Some muslims want to deport all Zionists from Israel.

So what is the difference between those who hate muslims and want to deport them and some muslims who hate Zionists and want to deport them ?

Actually, I'm not even a blonde. Brunette (rapidly greying).

Foolster4, you stated :

Let it be known that 45ch IS A LIAR. There is no such thing as freedom in Malaysia if you're a non-mulsim. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1561896/Malaysia-considers-switch-to-Islamic-law.html

Comment :

The referenced link does not show that non-muslims do not have freedom in Malaysia and does not show that Sharia laws apply to non-muslims.

No govt. on earth is perfect, including the US govt .or the Malaysian govt. but there is no indication that non-muslims in Malaysia do not have freedom.

Now, do Malaysians have the freedom to abort babies and have pornography easily available ? Probably not, but as I said before, I rather live in a strict Sharia state that bans abortion and pornography than a state where anything goes.

Do non-muslims have total freedom in Malaysia ? probably not.

But if you look at Malaysia which is about 50 years old and if you look at the US when it was 50 years old, you will clearly see that Malaysia has a lot more freedom than Americans had when the US was 50 years old in 1826 when slavery was protected by the US govt.

If Malaysia does not have freedom, why is Malaysia the second most popular destination ( after Australia) among elderly Japanese who have made Malaysia their second home ?

ref : http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:R9UieoSq5_4J:ir.minpaku.ac.jp/dspace/bitstream/10502/2043/1/SER77_013.pdf+europeans+moving+to+malaysia&cd=10&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Why is Malaysia inviting foreigners to visit and even live in Malaysia if Malaysia is not interested in giving foreigners freedom ?

ref : http://www.12retireinmalaysia.com/

Here is a video by a Malaysian christian, affirming that christianity is a vibrant force in Malaysia :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDzsE3HCjEI&feature=related

If Malaysians do not have freedom, why does the following video talk about Malaysians involved in the world peace movement ?
Since the Malaysian people have freedom, the usual next step is to talk about world peace :

http://www.youtube.com/user/malaysiakini?blend=1&ob=4#p/u/56/l7RgDu6gjPU

Here is a video about the relocation of a Hindu temple in Malaysia where the question was , in what area of town should the temple be moved to and not whether it should exist or not , which is an indication that freedom of religion exists in Malaysia:

http://www.youtube.com/user/malaysiakini?blend=1&ob=4#p/u/169/2PtTKfKtxBM

If Malaysia does not have freedom, why do tens of millions of people visit Malaysia every year :

http://www.malaysianpropertypartners.com/resources/latest-news/malaysia-tourist-arrivals-soar/

Foolster4, you stated :

And it looks like things might get worse! You have made bogus claims from the get-go about Kuffir friendly Muslim countries, posting OVER AND OVER a bogus list where I have listed sharia law being used in some of those countries, and yet you just ignore it and pretend it's not there, or that it somehow proves nothing.

Comment :

It is possible for muslim majority countries to not have sharia as the law of the land, as you acknowledge when you made the statement : " used in some of those countries" but you did not say that all muslim countries have sharia, so it is possible for muslims to override the Koran/Hadith and not have Sharia, as you yourself acknowledge that not all muslim countries have sharia.

Sharia does exist in Malaysia, but Sharia does give non-muslims the freedom to do basically whatever they want to do, including wearing skimpy shorts and living the lifestyle of Americans:

Here is a video of Malaysians showing quite a bit of skin in public :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cErd6Mtctio

Foolster4, you stated :

I do not hate mulsims, as you try to paint everyone here as. This is no hate site, but this site provides information on REAL instances of Mulsims imposing their will on others.

Comment :

What is your definition of hate ?

Is calling for the deportation of all muslims, hate ?

Not all those in this site are hateful but there are some who refer to dissenters as less than human and call muslims all kinds of names

Foolster4, you stated :

I hate the lack of freedom non-muslims have because of muslims. It is NOT a minority when there are numerous countries such as Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Gambia, Somalia, Turkey, Uzbezekstan and Guinea practice persecution of non-believers (some of these countries might sound familiar).

Comment :

Do any of the countries mentioned, persecute non-believers because they are non-believers ? I do not see any of the above countries officially persecuting unbelievers because they are not muslim.

Foolster4, you stated :

And those people such as AM and Yom who come HERE with their same fascist ideals (I know, because in not too long they expose themselves as condoning, or at least not condemning Islamic fascism)

Comment :

What is islamic fascism ? I dont get the term, please explain, thanks

Foolster4, you stated :

Why do I never hear a mulsim here rebuke another for what they say here, where time for time, the Anti-jihadists here do sometimes disagree (and even have somewhat heated debates)?

Comment :

One reason Islam is weak is because muslims have not been united, as can be seen by over 57 muslim countries in existence.

If muslims thought alike, why the numerous muslim countries ?

Muslims are just like anybody else. They quarrel amongst themselves, they criticize each other, etc etc.

Here is a list of muslims and muslim organizations who condemned the attacks on 9/11 :

http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php

Foolster4, you stated :

Yom has said that 17-year old (nearly independent) Rifqa Barry cannot make her own choice about religion. Do you agree with this?

Comment :

Killing for any reason is wrong, unless its purely for self defense.

Targeted assassinations without trial is also wrong and this is carried out on a regular basis by both the US govt. and the Israeli govt, using aircraft/drones.

If a known serial killer in the US is hold up in a house by himself, is it right to use a drone or aircraft to shoot a missile into that house ?

and if extra-judicial killing is wrong in that case, it should also be wrong in every other case outside the US where targeted assassinations takes the place of a criminal trial.

Foolster4, you stated :

Yom, on the honor killing in Jordan has made it out to be the father preforming inept surgery rather than what it was, murder. Do you agree with this?

Comment :

Honor killing is wrong and evil, no matter what the girl has done, just as the murder of a girl by her jealous boyfriend or husband in this country is wrong and evil, but sadly and tragically, more crimes of passion ( the murder of intimate partners) go on in this world than honor killings by muslims.

About 2000 annual murders of intimate partners in the US alone, compared to 5000 annual honor killings world wide.

ref : http://www.soundvision.com/Info/domesticviolence/statistics.asp

ref : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing

Foolster4, you stated :

Yom is for the expulsion of all Jews from Isreal (to America), regardless of the FACT that Jews have been living in the area continuously for the last 2000+ years and have just as much right to it as the Arabs. Do you agree with this?

Comment :

It does not matter how many illegal immigrant Jews are in Israel, just as it does not matter how many illegal Mexicans are in this country.

The world belongs to everybody.

Expulsions of Jews from Israel or the expulsions of muslims or illegal immigrants from America are both wrong, no matter what any of them have done.

Foolster4, you stated :

I beleive Both you and Yom have expressed preference to Sharia law, so that should say something about your being "moderate" and having the kuffir's best interest in minds.

Comment :

If I had a choice, America under Sharia or America under "anything goes"; i would vote for America under Sharia.

As long as you are a law abiding citizen and since Jesus was able to live under the terrorist Romans, surely you and I can live under Sharia and know that babies will be saved from abortion, pornography will not be able to make sexual addicts out of our children and that our children will be able to live in a family oriented environment

The video below is about a Saudi woman who seems to be happy living in a Sharia state :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kbvvZs_0Zc

Dumbledoresarmy:

Concerning human rights, compared to how slow the US progressed after its independence in 1776, many muslim countries have progressed a lot faster since the 20th century, ever since many muslim countries received their independence from their european colonial masters.

A very tiny minority of muslims do not like the progress and long for the days of the Caliphate but those muslims are in the minority and you do not have to be afraid that they will take over the world to impose Sharia.

As for Iran, the problem has been blown all out of proportion, when the greater danger is from US ally Pakistan which already has nuclear weapons and where Al-Qaeda and the Taliban are supported by the Pakistani intelligence service.

Even if religious extremists take over Pakistan, the result will be that Pakistan will follow the same path as Iran, in being a regional power without any threat to either its neighbors or Israel.

As for your life, you are more in danger from your non-muslim fellow citizens or jealous boyfriends/husbands or from the poisons the govt fails to prevent in everyday household items or foods than you are in danger from your muslim neighbors or a terrorist.

You are more in danger from cancer causing substances in food and everyday items, than you will ever be in danger from muslims or terrorists.

In your lifetime, you or your family are not going to be hurt by any muslim or terrorist.

I know you want peace in your life and I know you want peace in the life of all muslims, some of whom might be future victims of honor killing.

The way to peace is to be peacemaker, as Jesus said, "blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called children of God".

Hatred will only consume your soul like a cancer.

You cannot hate all muslims because some muslims are themselves victims of hate or crime and they need your love and support

I wish you well in your life but you have to help yourself by letting go of the hate and start befriending muslims and showing them the love of Christ and in so doing, they will come to know Christ through your witness.

Foolster41, you stated :

"Now, do Malaysians have the freedom to abort babies and have pornography easily available ? Probably not, but as I said before, I rather live in a strict Sharia state that bans abortion and pornography than a state where anything goes."
I don't think you understand. This is fascism. You're saying you'd rather throw everything away with strict sharia law, floggings and stonings and all rather than put up with freedoms others have that you don't like. I highly suggest you take a good look at your code of ethics. I highly recomend "Mere Christianity" by C. S. Lewis, who talks a bit in his first chapter about "Moral Law" from a non-religous point of view in the first chapter. It also could be helpful in understanding what Christians really beleive (Not an observation on you, I think the majority of non-christians, and many christians for that matter don't quite understand it.)

Comment :

Stonings, floggings and any cruel aspects of Sharia need to be banned.

I was saying in the context of having no choice.

If I had no choice in the matter, I rather live under Sharia that bans abortion and pornography than in a state where everything goes.

Lets look at this in the context of what might be acceptable sharia.

In the UK there are courts that practice sharia : http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article4749183.ece

These courts are along the lines of jewish courts in the UK : http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7233040.stm

So the best of both worlds will be to have this kind of sharia along the lines of the jewish/sharia courts in the UK and at the same time, the banning of abortion and pornography.

Foolster41, you stated :

"The referenced link does not show that non-muslims do not have freedom in Malaysia and does not show that Sharia laws apply to non-muslims."
Because you are blind, or trying to lie to me.

Comment :

There would be no way that non-muslims can wear anything they like, while showing skin, if Malaysia has little freedom for non-muslims.

There is no way that elderly Japanese would choose Malaysia (next to Australia) as their second home if there was little freedom in Malaysia.

There is no way tens of millions of tourists will be visiting Malaysia if there was little freedom.

The following video clearly shows that Malaysians are happy with their freedoms, even if it is imperfect :

Watch this Malaysian video titled " Are we at peace ?" : http://www.malaysiantoday.com.my/node/838

Foolster41, you stated :

from the article: "Sharia law already operates in some Malaysian states and is occasionally applied to non-Muslims, as in July when Islamic officials forcibly separated a Hindu-Muslim couple with six children after 21 years of marriage."

Comment :

If you are against Sharia states in Malaysia, you can always visit the non-sharia states in Malaysia where the majority muslims do not impose religious laws.

I never said that freedom was perfect in all of the states in Malaysia.

Even in the US recently, a judge prevented an inter-racial couple from marrying : http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2364944/posts

In a 1999 report, Amnesty International said it had "documented patterns of ill-treatment across the U.S., including police beatings, unjustified shootings and the use of dangerous restraint techniques."

According to a 1998 Human Rights Watch report, incidents of police use of excessive force had occurred in cities throughout the U.S., and this behavior goes largely unchecked.

An article in USA Today reports that in 2006, 96% of cases referred to the U.S. Justice Department for prosecution by investigative agencies were declined. In 2005, 98% were declined.

In 2001, the New York Times reported that the U.S. government is unable or unwilling to collect statistics showing the precise number of people killed by the police or the prevalence of the use of excessive force.

According to a January 2006 Human Rights First report, there were 45 suspected or confirmed homicides while in US custody in Iraq and Afghanistan; "Certainly 8, as many as 12, people were tortured to death."

Compare what is happening in some Sharia states in Malaysia with the situation in America when America was 50 years old.

Even though Malaysia is only 50 years old, it has a much more progressive state of freedom than America had when America was 50 years old with slavery as a cruel institution officially sanctioned by the state.

If you were to visit Malaysia, would your freedom be curbed and to what extent ?

how do you explain the following Malaysians in this video, looking like they are enjoying Malaysian freedoms ?

ref : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L38jWPCkGtk

I have visited Malaysia, and I assure you its just like America even though in America, blacks feel that they do not have complete freedom.

Foolster41, you stated :

Are you really trying to tell me this will be different than in Egypt, Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc? I have "fool" in my name, but I am not that great a fool!

Comment :

No muslim country is perfect but neither is the US govt perfect.

The pragmatic question we have to ask is : would we be able to live in muslim countries with their imperfect human rights record ?

And the answer is yes.

You and I would be able to live happily in non-war zones like Malaysia and numerous other muslim countries that are non-war zones or muslim countries not next to Israel, Iraq or Afghanistan.

If you are concerned about Sharia, the following muslim countries would be good places to live in :

Turkey
Albania
Malaysia ( non-sharia states )
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Kosovo

Foolster41, you stated :

"Do non-muslims have total freedom in Malaysia ? probably not."
Probibly the most honest thing you've said so far.

Comment :

If we look at muslim countries in the context of when they got their freedom from their european colonial masters, its easy to see that the freedoms they enjoy are much more than the freedoms in a similar period after America got its independence

Foolster41, you stated :

"What is your definition of hate ? Is calling for the deportation of all muslims, hate ?"
I have never said I supported that view, but No I would not. The resaon is, because of what Islam teaches it is impossible to tell nominal peaceful Mulsims from violent ones, cases such as the Ft. Hood case and many many others shows this. You would claim verses are being taken "out of context" but it is being taken out of context by Muslims themselves first.

Comment :

The reason the founding fathers were able to get the American people on their side is because the British govt collectively punished all Americans for the wrongs done by a few Americans.

Collective punishment of muslims for the wrongs done by a few only results in the "war on terror" continuing indefinitely.

"Guilt by association" is a classic terrorist propaganda technique and that is how Al-Qaeda was able to recruit the hijackers for the 9/11 attacks by saying that all Americans are guilty because some politicians in the US govt were guilty of stationing troops in Saudi Arabia as a result of the gulf war in which Iraqi children were collaterally killed.

Al-Qaeda's attitude of associating nominal Americans with "violent" Americans in the US govt, is what helps Al-Qaeda recruit people who are willing to kill civilians in terrorist attacks.

Can we blame an entire community for the beliefs of a few violent individuals ?

Every time a spree killer who is non-muslim mass murders people, does that mean those who share his religion or ideology are also guilty ?

ref : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spree_killer

Just as the overwhelming majority of Christians do not follow the pacifism of Jesus, the overwhelming majority of Muslims are not able to commit murder.

A non-criminal muslim will look at the "encouragement" to kill infidels as a historical event when Muhammad did kill treacherous Jews for treason but not as a commandment for today.

But a criminal muslim will look at the "encouragement" to kill infidels as a ruling for today and even then you do not find American muslims killing "infidels" in America today and in fact all the killing sprees in the world are overwhelmingly committed in western countries by non-muslims

ref : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spree_killer

Foolster41, you stated :

"Not all those in this site are hateful but there are some who refer to dissenters as less than human and call muslims all kinds of names"
I think most of the name-calling is coming foremost from those "Muslim desentners" such as Abdullah Mikail and others anyway. I disagree with those who name call anyway, and I've tried my best to be civil, even to those "dissenters" who have called names, and have spouted historicaly inaccurate statements, and spewed rascist views here (no, I'm not refering to you 45ch, in any case I can recall anyway.)

Comment :

The only way we are going to win the "war on terror" is to marginalize the extremists and the way to marginalize extremists is to co-opt all those muslims who are not extreme in their views and almost all muslims are not extreme in their views.

If you take the time to visit muslim countries and/or befriend muslims, you will find that they are just like you and I and have hopes and aspirations for their children and they are very hospitable to visitors and are family oriented.

Foolster41, you stated :

Yom has said that 17-year old (nearly independent) Rifqa Barry cannot make her own choice about religion. Do you agree with this?
Your comment in responce didn't answer my question, and instead talked about killing.

Comment :

Every person should have the right to believe or not to believe and you will find that non-believers in muslim countries are not forced to become muslim.

if they are forced to become muslim, its the exception and not the rule.

Foolster41, you stated :

"Honor killing is wrong and evil, no matter what the girl has done, just as the murder of a girl by her jealous boyfriend or husband in this country is wrong and evil, but sadly and tragically, more crimes of passion ( the murder of intimate partners) go on in this world than honor killings by muslims."
Then why havn't I seen you reputing Yom here for his views?

Comment :

I have not had the time to read all of Yom's comments because the majority of comments in Jihad watch is mostly about indicting all muslims for the wrongs done by a few, the same technique used by terrorists in indicting all Americans for the wrongs done by a few in the US govt

Foolster41, you stated :

"Expulsions of Jews from Israel or the expulsions of muslims or illegal immigrants from America are both wrong, no matter what any of them have done."
Then why havn't I seen you reputing Yom here for his views?

Comment :

Here again, I have not read all of Yom's comments because the majority of comments in Jihad watch is about "collectively punishment" and "guilt by association" and whenever the majority tries to push for legislation against the minority, we should all be concerned, much more than Yom's comments that do not represent the majority of views here in jihad watch.

When Yom's views start being the majority view, I will be just as concerned, just as when the majority tries to impose their views on the minority.

Right now, the majority views in jihad watch have more of a chance in infecting the minds of people in America than the views of Yom, so that is why I am not reading all of Yom's comments or taking them seriously.

Foolster41, you stated :

"If I had a choice, America under Sharia or America under "anything goes"; i would vote for America under Sharia."
*spits* May you never get your wish, or the right to vote here in America.

Comment :

Just as the UK has Sharia and Jewish courts and as long as the cruel aspects of Sharia are not adopted in America, its ok to vote for Sharia but taking away that vote amounts to taking away dissent, right ?

Does fascism constitute the ability to take away a person's right to vote ?

Foolster41, you stated :

Sri, what you're failing at is that one kind of Sharia ("light") leads to the bad kind. Why should we let in a lesser evil on the "promise" that it won't be bad. Aren't we justified to say "no" to the little evil? It's like the cartoon scenario where a character adopts a cute little creature and it grows and grows and grows and nearly kills everyone. Why should we adopt that creature knowing what that creature will become?

Comment :

The reason some muslims feel discriminated against is the view that Sharia courts in the UK are extreme whereas the same kind of courts among the Jews is fine.

You seem to think that muslims are always up to no good.

Muslims are people too and they are open to discussion, dialog, compromise and resolution unless some of them feel oppressed, disrespected and persecuted.

If the US govt is truly interested in peace, it has to keep open lines of communication, diplomacy with financial and security incentives and not letting the extremists influence muslims and the only way to marginalize extremists is to make peace in the middle east and other places of conflict.

Foolster41, you stated :

You mentioned pornography. Using your logic, do you think that though you think pornography is a bad thing, that "only" pictures depicting topless woman is alright? After all, their not really the same thing, and how could one lead to the other?
Could you please point out a seperation of light sharia and harsh sharia in the Quran?

Comment :

To deem something as pornographic depends on community standards and each community in the US should be given the authority to regulate the pornography being shown in their community.

Any kind of Sharia that is deemed as cruel punishment should be banned.

There is no compromise in this matter and the result is what you find in the sharia courts in the UK where only the "light" Sharia is practiced.

Foolster41, you stated :

"Just as the overwhelming majority of Christians do not follow the pacifism of Jesus, the overwhelming majority of Muslims are not able to commit murder."

This is over-repeated phrase. What you ignore is that while Christians disobeying Christ do terrible things, those who do terrible things in Islam are obeying Mohammad and the Quran, and find justificaiton in it. There are no (or at least very very few) Christians/Jews who are stoning people and citing Deutreronamy. I ask that unless you can refute this and show Christians/Jews ARE citing such OT laws to do terrible things you stop using this faulty argument.

Comment :

The over-repeated phrase is to bring to everybody's attention that whether a person is brought up in a christian ideology or a islamic ideology, more often that not, muslims are not going to follow every aspect of islamic ideology, just as christians do not follow every aspect of christian ideology.

A criminal mind will take whatever ideology he is brought up in and find some excuse, either from the ideology he was brought up in or some other ideology he adopts in order to commit a crime.

For example, a criminal who has the genetic disposition to beat up his wife will point to biblical passages where the woman is told to be submissive to the husband.

But a non-criminal will look at the same passage in the bible to mean that the woman is not told to be submissive but is just an advisory to be submissive.

Similarly, a non-criminal who is brought up in the Islamic ideology will look at passages referencing jihad has a reference to a historical event and not a commandment for today.

But a criminal who is brought up in islamic ideology will look at the passages referencing jihad as a reference to commandments that should be obeyed today.

The bottom line is, a criminal will take any ideology and find an excuse to commit a crime.

If all muslims think alike, you would not be finding about 57 different muslim countries in the world today.

As soon as Muhammad died, muslims have been fighting each other, physically and verbally, so there is not a single ideology that all muslims follow and even if they do follow a single ideology, each muslim interprets it in a different way and a very tiny minority of muslims take jihad seriously.

Even in the very war zones that muslims find themselves in, only a tiny minority tend to repel foreign forces on their land, whereas the majority try to find democratic ways to compromise with the occupying force.

Foolster41, you stated :

"If you take the time to visit muslim countries and/or befriend muslims, you will find that they are just like you and I and have hopes and aspirations for their children and they are very hospitable to visitors and are family oriented."
But there are also many many Muslims who wish, and declare hatred for Jews and persecute them in the birthplace of Islam, Saudia Arabia as well as countries such as Iran, Samolia, Iraq, Egypt, Gaza and others. You cannot seriously say there is nothing wrong in Islam. And if that is the case, then the reformation of Islam must come from WITHIN not from my perceptions of Islam from meeting a few very nice people.

Comment :

Reforming Islam is like saying, can we change the US govt from a warfare state to a pro-peace state.

It can be done, but it takes a long time but meanwhile we can take baby steps in recognizing the fact that almost all muslims are open to discussion, compromise and peace and that is the main reason why the US govt is allied with the most strict Sharia state : Saudi Arabia

because the US govt with the help of the CIA has recognized the fact that Saudi Arabia is not a danger to world peace and that a very tiny minority of terrorists are a danger, not to world peace but a danger to Americans everywhere due to US foreign policy.

While I am saying that the US govt is always in the wrong when it goes to war, I never said that nothing is wrong with Islam.

Islam does sanction violence, just as the US govt believes in violence/war to bring about "justice" but at the same time, just as a gun or murderous lyrics in a song or the US govt's policies cannot make a person commit to war, its impossible for Islam to make a person commit to war or a crime.

If a person is easily persuaded by ideology, should we not have millions of people following the ideology of the KKK ?

But the fact is that ideology does not make a person what he or she is but rather genetic and environmental dispositions play a much greater role, which in turn makes the person prone to interpret ideologies as he sees fit to suit either his criminal or non-criminal intent.

So muslims are not a problem to the world but rather the extremists within every muslim country are a problem and its very easy to solve the problem, but sadly, the powers in western countries, especially here in the US do not want to solve the problem because the military/industrial complex thrives on conflict.

Today, because 68 cents of every tax dollar goes to the military/industrial complex, its inevitable that the special interests from the military/industrial complex will have the biggest influence on the US govt and that is why the US govt has a military solution to problems rather than trying to save trillions through pragmatic negotiations, diplomacy and inexpensive covert operations.

Ref : http://www.bu.edu/globalbeat/syndicate/anglewicz-brauer062005.html

The military/industrial complex rather make money through the corporate welfare system without war, but war is too much of a temptation and too lucrative for war profits to be abandoned completely, so the rich and powerful in the military/industrial complex thrive on conflict and its in their interest to keep the conflict going and that is why you will find instigation policies of the US and Israeli govts in keeping the terrorists agitated enough so that they will keep causing problems and in turn the fear that is generated among the public due to terrorism will enable politicians to keep expanding the "defense" budget because a fearful public will not question the ever expanding defense budget and in turn the ever expanding "defense" budget keeps the rich and powerful in the military/industrial complex happy and pave the way for support and re-elections of the military/industrial complex's puppet politicians.

And the people who pay the price for all the instigated conflicts are the poor, the sick, the handicapped, the children and the babies, while the so-called adults send the our young and beloved soldiers to their deaths all in the name of honor, duty and patriotism while the rich and powerful in the military/industrial complex "laugh all the way to the bank ".

Here are two examples of instigation policies that resulted in war or prolonged the conflict :

(1) The US govt instigated Japan by freezing Japanese assets, helping the Chinese military against Japan and as the McCollum Memo from US naval intelligence and Stimson, the Secretary of War admitted that the US govt did everything short of all out war, to instigate the Japanese govt to attack, since only if the Japanese attacked first would that unite the American people for war, since the American people did not want another world war.

(2) Instead of using pragmatic diplomatic and covert initiatives, the US govt demanded that the Taliban hand over Osama Bin Laden to the US knowing fully well that that kind of belligerent rude approach will not make the Taliban concede to the demands of the US govt and thus pave the way for war.

The Taliban tried to save face by saying that Osama bin Laden (if found , since he fled to the mountains after the 9/11 attack) would be put on trial in a muslim country , but US govt was more interested in war then trying to negotiate with the Taliban.

Foolster41, you stated :

"if they are forced to become muslim, its the exception and not the rule."
This is not at all true in countries like Iran, Egypt, Saudia Arabia and others. A quick search here and on the web would show that.

Comment :

No muslim country has an official policy stating that all non-muslim citizens will be forced to convert to Islam.

Even Muhammad did not force all non-muslims to convert to Islam and those who did not wish to convert to Islam were to pay a "protection" tax, similar to taxes paid in all countries to fund the police force for protection etc. and as far as taxes were concerned, muslims had to pay taxes too, so it was not a total discrimination of non-muslims.

Compare what Muhammad did to what the Jews did in the promised land : the Jews killed all non-jew inhabitants ( men, women, children and babies ) of the promised land ( Deut. 20:16 ).

Jerusalem-based Holocaust Studies Professor Yehuda Bauer stated "As a Jew, I must live with the fact that the civilization I inherited ... encompasses the call for genocide in its canon."

Foolster41, you stated :

"When Yom's views start being the majority view, I will be just as concerned, just as when the majority tries to impose their views on the minority."
There are thousands of Gazians who share this view, as well as Saudi Arabians, Iranians, Egyption muslims and others, much of such instances are shown here on this site. While it may very well be a minority view amongst muslims you can't serious argue that it is a veiw held by a very small number of people.

Comment :

If you are talking about honor killing, holding a position on honor killing is very different from actually participating in the crime of honor killing.

For example, 6% of Americans ,according to the Gallup poll, support terrorism but if you look at the number of Americans actually involved in hate crimes and other forms of terrorism, the numbers do not even come close to 6% of Americans.

So supporting something does not mean actively participating in it, so Yom might support honor killing but if he was put in a similar situation of killing his daughter, he would probably not do it or encourage anybody else to do it.

Foolster41, you stated :

"Does fascism constitute the ability to take away a person's right to vote ?"
You have it backwords. There is no such thing as "good" or "light" Sharia and "bad" or "harsh" sharia. It's one and the same in the Quran, and that same law commands the subjegation of non-beleivers. Therefore, it IS fascism, and I don't want it in my country or anywhere in the west.

Comment :

The UK already has sharia courts as well as jewish courts.

If you want to ban Sharia courts in the UK, you should also call for the ban of Jewish courts but isn't democracy all about giving people choices and if people choose to be in a sharia or jewish court, should they not be given the freedom to choose ?

Foolster41, you stated :

45ch: "There is no compromise in this matter and the result is what you find in the sharia courts in the UK where only the "light" Sharia is practiced."
Ah, but you never answered my question. Where in the Koran is it differenciated between light and harsh sharia?

Comment :

You should go by what many muslims are actually doing and not go by either what the Old Testament says or what the Koran says.

If you go by what muslims actually do with the Koran, all evidence points to the fact that muslims are willing to compromise, especially in western countries and secular muslim countries.

As I said before, numerous muslim countries have progressed much faster than the same time period after America got its independence and I know one day, all muslim countries will have progressed to the point of only adopting "light" Sharia as the Sharia courts in the UK have done

Foolster41, you stated :

I asserted that Islam encourages bad behavior, where as Christians and Jews are NOT citing their scriptures to do evil. instead of refuting this and showing cases where christians/Jews use their scriptures to stone and subjegate non-beleivers you IGNORE it and make the "tiny minority" claim.

Comment :

All religions in one way or other, encourage bad behavior;

Americans used to have slaves, citing biblical passages regarding slavery that slaves should be obedient to their masters.

Like i said before , western countries have had a 600 year head start and comparatively, muslim countries, especially the secular muslim countries and even Malaysia have made great progress and we should keep encouraging them to progress instead of just complaining and accusing and not giving them the incentives to change for the better.

Foolster41, you stated :

45ch said:"The Taliban tried to save face by saying that Osama bin Laden (if found , since he fled to the mountains after the 9/11 attack) would be put on trial in a muslim country , but US govt was more interested in war then trying to negotiate with the Taliban."

So to you, the Taliban are the good guys? Maybe you misses the story where the Taliban were stonuing people and burning down girl's schools? The Taliban is one of the many forces that are using ISLAM as a reason to do evil, as I said quite a few times (and I'm getting tired of saying it and being ignored) like in Egypt, Iraq, Syria, Iran, Gaza, Samolia, Gambia and others. There is a good reason why the US is at war with them, and it is because they support terrorism.

Comment :

I never said the Taliban were good guys.

I was saying that the US govt could have avoided war and saved the lives of Afghans and the lives of US soldiers.

Why is it when the enemy is powerful, the US govt is willing to negotiate as the US govt negotiated with the Soviet Union regarding removing US missiles from Turkey or extending diplomatic ties with China which invaded Tibet, the very China that wants to eliminate Taiwan and is terribly cruel and torturous to dissidents.

Remember, the Soviet Union and China were responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of US soldiers in the Vietnam and Korean wars since they supplied the weaponry to the Vietnamese and Koreans and China even directly engaged US troops in Korea.

If the US is capable of compromise and negotiations with murderous communists , surely the US govt could have negotiated with the Taliban and eventually got Osama Bin Laden through covert operations.

Foolster41, you stated :

45ch said:"Even Muhammad did not force all non-muslims to convert to Islam and those who did not wish to convert to Islam were to pay a "protection" tax, similar to taxes paid in all countries to fund the police force for protection etc. and as far as taxes were concerned, muslims had to pay taxes too, so it was not a total discrimination of non-muslims."
True there may not be an aim to eliminate ALL non-muslims. After all, they make a handy revenue stream. Also, they are NOT ALLOWED to: share their faith, have visable symbols of their faith or build churches. Again, you are supporting FASCISM though you try to dress it up as something else.

Comment :

So during the days of slavery, the US govt was fascist ?

So when Jim Crow laws were practiced in the South, the US govt was fascist ?

Every govt can progress and we should do the same with all muslim govts and that is give them all the incentives to progress.

Just complaining and insulting and putting them down is not going to make them see the error of their ways because they only see the insults and not the true meat of our arguments.

Numerous muslim govts have progressed faster than the US govt was at the same period of time in the period after independence and isnt that important to note ?

Foolster41, you stated :

45ch said: "Jerusalem-based Holocaust Studies Professor Yehuda Bauer stated "As a Jew, I must live with the fact that the civilization I inherited ... encompasses the call for genocide in its canon.""
And yet, no Jews today use that "canon" today, however in hundreds of cases since 9-11 alone MUSLIMS DO. That should make you stop and think about your own honesty. If there were nothing wrong at the ROOT of Islam (I.e. the Koran and example of Mohammad) then you wouldn't need to resort to Tu Quo Que. (It seems me pointing out when you use this fallacy doesn't even phase you and you use it again and again.)

Comment :

You are talking about criminals and not the average muslim who is just like you and me.

The fact that Osama Bin Laden was not able to recruit any of the millions of American muslims on 9/11 shows that almost all muslims do not want to participate in jihad, especially those muslims in secular muslim countries or in non-war zones not in or next to Iraq, Afghanistan or Israel.

Do you find any muslim in Switzerland practicing Jihad ?

Here is a video of a muslim accusing other muslims ( outside a mosque ) of not wanting to go to jihad and there is a muslim in this video that confronts the accuser, saying that Islam is a peaceful religion and that the accuser does not speak for all muslims :

http://www.blip.tv/file/2760905

Foolster41, you stated :
"Americans used to have slaves, citing biblical passages regarding slavery that slaves should be obedient to their masters."

And it was Christians who helped freed slaves, citing bilbical passages as justification.

Comment :

And the same applies to muslims.

Reformation within Islam comes from those muslims who take the moral passages in the Koran to forge ahead with light Sharia.

The non-criminal muslims will look at moral passages in the Koran or Hadith to justify their actions and the tiny minority of extremists in the muslim community will look at the jihadi passages of the Koran or Hadith to justify their actions.

The video below shows that there are two types of muslims reading the same Koran/Hadith and they choose to follow either the moral passages or the jihadi passages and my contention is the ones following the jihadi passages are a tiny minority and not powerful enough to disrupt the political structure of the western world.

Here is a video in which a jihadi muslim confronts the people outside a mosque, almost all them non-jihadi muslims :

http://www.blip.tv/file/2760905

Foolster41, you stated :

Again, you're ignoring me when I say there are NO CHRISTIANS today who use biblical reasons to do such evil things as stoning people or keep slaves. However, many many Jihadists do evil. You brush this off as "war zones"
trying to pawn off the blame to someone else.

Comment :

I am brushing this off as "war zones" ?

If you were in a war zone and you see your family murdered by rebels or collaterally killed by the occupying force, knowing that you do not compromise with injustice , what would you do ?

When a foreign power occupies another country or when separatist movements reject the govt., it tends to result in terrorism, as was seen by the torture that many loyalist Americans/British went through by being tarred ( boiling tar being poured on them) because they were seen as loyal to the occupying British forces by the American rebels.

Another form of terrorism was the killing of british troops by the American rebels, after the British troops had surrendered.

ref : http://home.golden.net/~marg/bansite/banecdotes/96quarter.html

Lynchings were ordered by American Patriot Judge Charles Lynch on the terrorized American loyalists who were loyal to the British Crown.

So terrorism can be the result of being in a war zone and its either terrorism from the occupying force through collateral actions or the terrorism of the rebels against those loyal to the occupying force.

The fact that most American loyalists who were loyal to Britain fled the US, shows the terror they faced, not only from being tarred or properties confiscated but being lynched to death.

ref : http://www.redcoat.me.uk/

You can take any "violent" passage in the bible and form an ideology.

For example, Jesus said He brought not peace but a sword into the world.

A good christian will take that passage to mean the being a christian attracts persecution and the sword but a criminal "christian" will take that passage to mean causing violence in order to bring about justice, just as some extreme muslims think.

At least one "christian" group in the list below wanted ties with Al-Qaeda.

The list below is about "christians" using warped "christian" ideology which does not reflect the views of the majority of christians

Some of the following "christian/white supremacist " organizations are not in war zones or in countries with active separatist movements :

here is a partial list of the "christian/white supremacist" organizations involved in terror:

(1) The Covenant, The Sword, and the Arm of the Lord (CSA) was a radical Christian Identity organization formed in 1971

(2) Aryan Nations (AN) is a white nationalist neo-Nazi organization founded in the 1970s by Richard Girnt Butler as an arm of the Christian Identity group Church of Jesus Christ-Christian.

August Kreis, an aspiring revolutionary with ties to the Aryan Nations, the Posse Comitatus, and the Ku Klux Klan, has reportedly attempted to forge an alliance between white supremacists and al Qaeda, hoping to exploit their shared hatred of the American government and the Jews.

(3) Ku Klux Klan (KKK), informally known as The Klan, is the name of several past and present hate group organizations in the United States whose avowed purpose was to protect the rights of and further the interests of white Americans by violence and intimidation.

(4) In March 2006, four leaders of the Aryan Brotherhood were indicted for numerous crimes, including murder

(5) Timothy McVeigh, the OKC bomber, was tied to several radical religious organizations

(6) South African Boeremag terrorist group conflate elements of Christianity and Odinism.

(7) The Order, also known as the Brüder Schweigen or Silent Brotherhood, was an organization active in the United States between 1983 and 1984. The Order described themselves as a white nationalist revolutionary group

(8) The Church of Jesus Christ–Christian is a white supremacist church, which was founded in 1946 by Ku Klux Klan organizer Wesley A. Swift.

(9) Thomas Robb, pastor of the KKK affiliated Christian Revival Center.

(10) Continuity Irish Republican Army

(11) Irish republican women's paramilitary organisation ( Cumann na mBan )

(12) Fianna Éireann or the "Warriors of Ireland"

(13) Irish National Liberation Army

(14) Irish People's Liberation Organisation

(15) Irish Republican Army

(16) Loyalist Volunteer Force

(17) Orange Volunteers, Protestant fundamentalist paramilitary group in Northern Ireland

(18) Real Irish Republican Army

Here is a partial list of jewish terror organizations :

(1) Kach

(2) Kahane Chai

(3) Irgun

(4) Lehi

(5) the Gush Emunim Underground (sometimes called the Jewish Terror Organization), was formed in 1979 by prominent members of Gush Emunim, a group of religious zealots

(6) Egrof Magen

(7) Jewish Defense League

ref : http://www.ihr.org/books/ztn.html

(8) Tagar

(9) Betar

(10) The Sons of the Memory of the Jews

An analysis of incidents in the past few decades in which Jews struck at Palestinians shows that right-wing Jewish terror groups grew amid Jewish settlers' increasing fears for their safety and progress in the peace talks that would lead to the evacuation of settlements

ref : http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/939538.html

Foolster41, you stated :

"If the US is capable of compromise and negotiations with murderous communists , surely the US govt could have negotiated with the Taliban and eventually got Osama Bin Laden through covert operations."
This is where we where our views on global diplopmacy differs. I beleive one should never compermise with murdering regimes, communist, terorrist or islamo-fascist. Period.

Comment :

So every time you feel there is injustice, what do you do ? Do you compromise or take the law into your own hands ?

When the US govt was terrorizing American natives and sanctioning the cruel institution of slavery, would you have wanted a foreign power to invade the US, not compromise with the US govt and freed the slaves and native americans from US jurisdiction ?

What would you have done in the Vietnam and Korean wars ? invaded the Soviet Union and China for their responsibility in the deaths of tens of thousands of American soldiers ?

What if they retaliated with nuclear weapons ?

Why did Jesus compromise with the terrorist Romans ? Could it be because that was the only way to save as many souls as possible because the work of Jesus would have been impeded if Jesus rebelled against the terrorist Romans.

COMPROMISE SAVES THE MOST LIVES BECAUSE AN UNCOMPROMISING POSITION RESULTS IN MORE DEATH AND DESTRUCTION

Foolster41, you stated :

You again claim that if just wait it'll all go away, but this is nonsense. We're supposed to justwait as hundreds or thousands of people every year are slaughtered by Muslims? At any rate, but we KNOW what's in the Koran and the commands of Mohammad. Why should we trust you when you say this? You are a Muslim, and so you would benefit from world domination!

I am tired of arguing in circles with you.

Comment :

I never said we wait.

I said active diplomacy, negotiations and the right package of security and financial incentives will move the process of liberalization a lot faster than confrontation and conflict.

You seem to think that Jews can reform, Christians can reform but not Muslims, but I have already pointed out that muslims in numerous muslim countries have progressed faster than at the same time in history in which America progressed.

I always look at the glass as "half full" and not "half empty".

I am very optimistic regarding the future of human rights in the muslim world

Can you answer the following question ?

What country passed laws forbidding "minorities" from holding office, disenfranchising them, and confiscating or heavily taxing their property ?

Well done, Foolster.

You have enabled any future readers of this thread, who may lob in here via google, to see through the sly lies and obfuscation of our Mohammedan Wormtongue.

By the way: it pretends not to be a Mohammedan, but in my experience, *only* Mohammedans ever try to claim that the Gospel verse "I came to bring not peace but a sword" is or can be read as a command to Christians to make war on non-Christians. For the context of the surrounding verses is such that every classic Christian commentator has always understood the verse to mean that families and communities will split up, as some among them reject and persecute those who choose to follow Christ; it is not a command to Christians to attack non-Christians, but rather, a prediction that the Christians will *be attacked by* the non-Christians).

Muslims have to twist this text out of all recognition, to make it an equivalent to Surah 9:5, the Verse of the Sword.

Foolster41, you stated :

(5) Timothy McVeigh was not a christian, but a agnostic. This has been addressed here before.

Comment :

Every time a "christian" commits a crime, he is doing it, not from a warped interpretation of christian ideology but every time a muslim commits a crime, he is doing exactly according to islamic ideology ?

Could some muslims who commit crimes also be agnostic or nationalistic or something else ?

John Muhammad who was the DC sniper; was he doing exactly what is Al-Qaeda's ideology or was he doing his criminal activity due to his own selfish reasons ?

Even if Timothy McVeigh was an agnostic, it does not mean he was not acting on a belief system.

All criminals act on a belief system based on either religion, race, sexual orientation, nationalism etc etc and their crimes are no less than a person committing a crime based solely on religion.

Would you say that Hitler or Stalin who acted on a non-religious belief system, were any less dangerous ?

Foolster41, you stated :

Could you please point out specific scriptural justification each on cites so we can examine whether they are in fact using scripture as justification (rather than just claiming to be Christian)? You're the one making the claim, so I think it's fair you do the research on this.

Comment :

All criminals act on a belief system based on either religion, race, sexual orientation, political orientation, gender superiority, nationalism etc etc and their crimes are no less dangerous than a person committing a crime based solely on religion.

Would you say that Hitler or Stalin who acted on a non-religious belief system, were any less dangerous ?

Foolster41, you stated :

For the Irish ones I beleive is much more than religion, but also political and about independence of Ireland from England.

Comment :

You are right, all crimes and all criminals act on a belief system based on either religion, race, sexual orientation, gender superiority, nationalism

or a combination of two or more belief systems etc etc and their crimes are no less than a person committing a crime based solely on religion.

Foolster41, you stated :

"What country passed laws forbidding "minorities" from holding office, disenfranchising them, and confiscating or heavily taxing their property ?"

Not sure.

Iran?
http://www.islam-watch.org/Jahanshah/Minorities-in-Allah-Country.htm

Yeman?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion_in_Yemen#Legal-and-policy-framework

Comment :

The two examples of Iran and Yemen don't come close to what happened to the American loyalists during and after the American revolution.

The US govt and state govts were repressive enough for approximately 100,000 American loyalists who fled into exile.

The US Congress recommended repressive measures against the loyalists, and all states passed severe laws against them, usually forbidding them from holding office, disenfranchising them, and confiscating or heavily taxing their property.

ref : http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/350105/loyalist

So discrimination can be status/political orientation based too, just as crimes can be based on belief systems that are not religiously based.

Foolster41, you stated :

"I never said we wait.
I said active diplomacy, negotiations and the right package of security and financial incentives will move the process of liberalization a lot faster than confrontation and conflict."
Which amounts to the same thing, while people are dying from Jihadists murdering we try to talk nice to them and give them stuff and HOPE that they will give up being radical! Meanwhile they still read from their book that tells them that it's alright to kill and subjegate the Kuffir.

Comment :

When did the US govt start talking nice to jihadists ?

The US govt only talks nice to powerful enemies and not jihadists who have no chance of even controlling a small country like Afghanistan

I do not believe that the Koran/Hadith are more powerful than the bible.

And just as the bible is not able to override the free will of almost all christians, the Koran/Hadith are not able to override the free will of almost all muslims and that is why we see very few jihadists in the world today and even in war zones, their numbers are not even close to coming to anything endangering even the weakest muslim govts in the world.

Even the jihadists who have taken over Iran over the past 30 years are pretty much confined to the area of Iran and not expanding their territory.

DDA,

I am reproducing here the comments to Foolster41 :

You can take any "violent" passage in the bible and form an ideology.

For example, Jesus said He brought not peace but a sword into the world.

A good christian will take that passage to mean the being a christian attracts persecution and the sword but a criminal "christian" will take that passage to mean causing violence in order to bring about justice, just as some extreme muslims think.

Comment :

Notice I said, a good christian will not take the passage on the sword to mean a call to violence, just as a good muslim ( almost all muslims ) would interpret the call to jihad as a historical event and not a commandment for today but a jihad against oneself ( a struggle within oneself )

Sufi muslims interpret Islam differently from a tiny minority of muslims who are actively involved in jihad.

Also,

I do not believe that the Koran/Hadith are more powerful than the bible.

And just as the bible is not able to override the free will of almost all christians, the Koran/Hadith are not able to override the free will of almost all muslims and that is why we see very few jihadists in the world today and even in war zones, their numbers are not even close to coming to anything endangering even the weakest muslim govts in the world.

Even the jihadists who have taken over Iran over the past 30 years are pretty much confined to the area of Iran and not expanding their territory.

Concerning human rights, compared to how slow the US progressed after its independence in 1776, many muslim countries have progressed a lot faster since the 20th century, ever since many muslim countries received their independence from their european colonial masters.

A very tiny minority of muslims do not like the progress and long for the days of the Caliphate but those muslims are in the minority and you do not have to be afraid that they will take over the world to impose Sharia.

As for Iran, the problem has been blown all out of proportion, when the greater danger is from US ally Pakistan which already has nuclear weapons and where Al-Qaeda and the Taliban are supported by the Pakistani intelligence service.

Even if religious extremists take over Pakistan, the result will be that Pakistan will follow the same path as Iran, in being a regional power without any threat to either its neighbors or Israel.

As for your life, you are more in danger from your non-muslim fellow citizens or jealous boyfriends/husbands or from the poisons the govt fails to prevent in everyday household items or foods than you are in danger from your muslim neighbors or a terrorist.

You are more in danger from cancer causing substances in food and everyday items, than you will ever be in danger from muslims or terrorists.

In your lifetime, you or your family are not going to be hurt by any muslim or terrorist.

I know you want peace in your life and I know you want peace in the life of all muslims, some of whom might be future victims of honor killing.

The way to peace is to be peacemaker, as Jesus said, "blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called children of God".

Hatred will only consume your soul like a cancer.

You cannot hate all muslims because some muslims are themselves victims of hate or crime and they need your love and support

I wish you well in your life but you have to help yourself by letting go of the hate and start befriending muslims and showing them the love of Christ and in so doing, they will come to know Christ through your witness.

The following shows that muslims can change :

Christians officially make up less than 4 percent of Iran’s population but the number is growing as people join the strong house church movement and accept Jesus Christ through satellite television

ref : http://www.fcnn.tv/start/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5176&Itemid=77

The following video shows that even Saudi muslims are capable of changing for the better:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncLMhT_7inY&feature=related

This American says that muslims in Saudi Arabia are a joy to be around :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfNrGXSX7Xc&NR=1

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

For any non-Muslim who may stumble in here, and has waded through the mountains of verbiage poured out by the Mohammedan-in-a-mask, '45ch' (= Chapter 45, that is, Surah 45 of the Quran, perhaps?), here is a news story that has appeared elsewhere on this site.

Read it and then decide who exactly is currently being eaten up by hate.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2009/11/egypt-christians-hide-in-homes-after-muslims-distribute-leaflets-saying-burn-vandalize-and-clean-the.html

Comment :

This criminal act was not sanctioned by the govt. of Egypt and accordingly, the govt. sent its security force to make sure no further hate crimes occurred while the actual murderers were indicted.

Compare what happened in Egypt with the rioting in the US when police officers were not found guilty by a court of law.

A minority of people can easily be agitated when they perceive injustice.

Also people riot over superficial reasons as in soccer riots in which people have died.

ref : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_hooliganism

Indicting an entire community for the criminal behavior of a few is what people like Hitler have done which resulted in more hate crimes being committed against the minority.

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

45ch refuses to recognise that the active rejection of an evil ideology (Islam) - and, therefore, open and trenchant criticism of it and of the evil conduct of those who follow its tenets to the letter, and active opposition to its spread and its followers' attempts to dominate and destroy others - does not necessarily involve 'hatred' of all those imprisoned within it. Anger, yes, at times. But not hate.

Comment :

Hate is when all innocent muslims are being indicted for the crimes of a few and the those who stand up for muslims are called less than human and insulted with name calling.

This is exactly the same tactic used by all haters like Hitler and Stalin who indicted an entire race of people as criminal.

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

45ch claims that I am a hater. For his information, every Friday I pray for two things - 1. the utter and total defeat of the Jihad, and 2. the conversion of Muslims to Christ.

Comment :

Everybody prays for violence to stop and everybody prays for muslims to accept Christ but hate is different.

Hate is when all innocent muslims are being indicted for the crimes of a few and the those who stand up for muslims are called less than human and insulted with name calling.

This is exactly the same tactic used by all haters like Hitler and Stalin who indicted an entire race of people as criminal.

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

It would be interesting to see what 45ch thinks of Fr Zakaria Botros:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2008/09/al-qaeda-declares-coptic-priest-zakaria-botros-one-of-the-most-wanted-infidels-in-the-world.html

Comment :

The fact that Coptic priest Zakaria Botros appears frequently on the Arabic channel al-Hayat shows that not all muslims are against Botros and do allow him to appear on Al-Hayat.

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

'Why are the Radicals so enraged by an elderly Coptic priest from Egypt who is in his 70s? Because Botros is waging an air war against them, and he is winning.'

Comment :

Muslims can change as seen in numerous secular muslim countries that have progressed much faster than during the same time period the US progressed after its independence

Most muslims would say what Botros is saying applies to historical events under circumstances Muhammad found himself in, just as Jews that heeded to the command of genocide in Deut. 20:16 are very different from Jews of today who look at the genocide of non-jews as a historical event, not applicable to today even though Deut 20:16 does not give a time table as to the end of the genocide or the subjugation of non-jews outside the promised land.

Its up to western govts to bring both Botros and muslim leadership into peaceful dialog to resolve any issues and to keep pushing for human rights reforms in all muslim countries.

Remember, western countries have had a 600 year head start on Islam and only in the 60s did all Americans receive full human rights after Jim Crow Laws were abolished.

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

"Using state-of-the art satellite technology to bypass the efforts of Islamic governments to keep the gospel out of their countries,

Comment :

Here is evidence that muslims can change and become christians :

Christians officially make up less than 4 percent of Iran’s population but the number is growing as people join the strong house church movement and accept Jesus Christ through satellite television

ref : http://www.fcnn.tv/start/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5176&Itemid=77

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

"Botros is directly challenging the claims of Muhammad to be a prophet, and the claims of the Qu'ran to be God's word.

"He systematically deconstructs Muhammad's life, story by story, pointing out character flaws and sinful behavior.

"He carefully deconstructs the Qu'ran, verse by verse, citing contradictions and inconsistencies.

"And not only does he explain without apology what he believes is wrong with Islam,

"he goes on to teach Muslims from the Bible why Jesus loves them and why is so ready to forgive them and adopt them into His family, no matter who they are or what they have done."

Now: would 45ch classify Fr Botros as a 'hater'?

Comment :

Botros is not a hater because he is not going after the muslim people but he is going after muslim leadership, some of whom have views that can lead to terrorism.

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

And let us reflect that Fr Botros can present his program because he now lives outside the Islamic world, in a majority-kafir free country. Were he still in Egypt he would simply not be able to do what he does; he would have been murdered long ago, to shut him up.

Comment :

There are millions of muslims living in the same country Botros lives in and those muslims are not hunting Botros down.

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

The resolute maintenance and defence of largely Islam-free societies, in which critique and questioning of Islam and public propagation of non-Islamic faiths are possible without incurring the risk of execution for 'blasphemy', is what *permits* the peaceful preaching of the Christian gospel, via satellite TV and radio whose stations are based in non-Muslim lands, into dar al Islam to open hearts and liberate minds from spiritual slavery.

Comment :

The Center Party of Egypt (Hizb ul-Wasat ), Turkey's ruling AKP Party, Tehreek i Insaf Party of Pakistan and Iran's Defenders of Human Rights Center are four of numerous muslim organizations and muslim reformers who don't hate muslims but want reformation in the muslim world.

Here is a partial list of reformist muslim organizations and reformists :

(1) Ibn Taymiya

(2) According to 18th century records, the Ottoman empire - Islam's ruling power - had not flogged, imprisoned, or passed the death sentence on adulterers for nearly 400 years.

ref : http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2007/sep/28/theislamicreformation

(3) Muslim Canadian congress

(4) Tariq Ramadan

(5) Salman Al-Audah

(6) Shah Waliullah

(7) Aqa Bihbihani

(8) Reformed Shi'sim or Bahai

(9) Ahmadiyya movement

(10) Deoband movement

(11) All Salafi Scholars spoke against present so called jihad and they hold thier opinion as ""No individual has the right to take the law into his own hands on any account. Even the closest of Muhammad's companions never killed a single of his opponents even when invectives were hurled at him day and night in the first thirteen years of his Da'wah at Makkah. Nor did they kill anyone in retaliation when he was pelted with stones at Ta'if"".

ref : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salafi#Current_disagreements_and_division

(12) Fiqh Council of North America

(13) Ali Gomaa, the grand mufti of Egypt and one of the highest-ranking clerics in the Sunni Muslim world

(14) Amina Wadud

(15) Laleh Bakhtiar

(16) Abdullahi Ahmed An-Naim, muslim legal scholar

(17) Mahmoud Mohamed Taha

(18) Javed Ghamidi of muslim satellite TV

(19) Shaykh Waheeduddin Khan, another mainstay of Muslim satellite TV

(20) Amr Khaled

(21) Farhat Hashmi

(22) Indonesian president Bambang

(23) Junoon, a sufi muslim

(24) Akbar Ganji in Iran

(25) REZA ASLAN

(26) IRSHAD MANJI

(27) RIFFAT HASSAN, Ph.D. Professor of Religious Studies and Humanities

(28) KASSIM AHMAD, former president of Malaysian Socialist Party

(29) GATUT ADISOMA, PhD, Indonesia

(30) Layth Saleh al-Shaiban

(31) AISHA Y. MUSA, PhD, Assistant Professor of Islamic Studies

(32) Abdel Moneim Mohammed of the Muslim Brotherhood who wants to reform the Muslim Brotherhood

ref : http://www.boston.com/news/world/africa/articles/2007/10/11/egypts_brotherhood_party_details_platform_akin_to_that_of_iran/

(33) Abdel Moneim Said, head of the leading Al Ahram Center for Strategic and Political Studies

(34) Shirin Ebadi, the Nobel Prize winner

(35) Rahim Jahanbegloo, called "the Iranian Gandhi" for his non-violent approach to protest.

(36) Ayatollah Kazemeini Boroujerdi.

(37) Muhammad Sa'id al-Ashmawi

(38) Muhammad Khalaf-Allah

(39) Nurcholish Madjid of Indonesia

(40) Fazlur Rahman,

(41) The Center Party of Egypt (Hizb ul-Wasat )

(42) Turkey's ruling AKP Party

(43) Tehreek i Insaf Party of Pakistan

(44) Shaykh Yusuf Qaradawi

(45) Ayatollah Muhammad Husain Fadlallah of Lebanon

(46) AbdulHakim Murad

(47) Shaykh Muhammad Afifi al-Akiti

(48) Shaykh Hamza Yusuf

(49) Shaykh Muhammad Sayyed Tantawi

(50) Ayatollah Ali Khamanei of Iran

(51) Seyyed Hossein Nasr, Iranian scholar

(52) Muzammil H. Siddiqui

(53) Shaykh Muhammad Sayyed Tantawi, Grand Imam of Al-Azhar University

(54) Shaykh Muhammad al-Munajjid

(55) Imam Zaid Shakir

(56) Tahir ul Qadri, Pakistani cleric

(57) AbdulHakim Murad, scholar

(58) Muzammil H. Siddiqui

(59) Moiz Amjad, Pakistani scholar

(60) Sheikh Abderrahman al-Sudayes

(61) Shaikh Abdulaziz Al-Ashaikh

(62) Shaykh Abdul-Aziz Aali-Shaykh

(63) Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia and President of the Committee of Senior Scholars

(64) Shaykh Saleh Al-Lehaydaan, Chief Justice Of The Saudi Arabian Judiciary

(65) Shaykh Dr. Saaleh Ibn Ghaanem As-Sadlaan, Pres. Higher Studies Dept. Al-Imaam Muhammd Ibn Saud Islamic University

(66) Khaled Abou El Fadl

(67) Jamil Abdul Razzak Hajoo, of Idriss Mosque, Seattle

(68) Shaykh Abdul Azeez bin Abdullah bin Baaz

(69) Shaykh Muhammad Bin Saalih al Uthaymeen

(70) Hamza Yusuf

(71) Shaykh Salah al-Lahidan, head of the Islamic Judiciary of Saudi Arabia

(72) Imam Siraj Wahhaj

(73) Ali abd al-Raziq

(74) Mustafa Kemal Ataturk

(75) Reza Shah of Iran

(76) Ahmad Kasravi of Iran

(77) Habib Bourguiba of Tunisia

(78) Ya'qub Sarruf of Egypt

(79) Faris Nimr of Egypt

(80) Nicola Haddad of Egypt

(81) Hizb 'Almani or the Wafd party of Egypt

(82) Arab nationalist Baath Party of Syria

(83) Azza Karam

(84) Rabat Al-Mar’a Al`arabiyya (the Alliance for Arab Women)

(85) Faraj Foda

(86) Dr. Muhammad Imara

(87) Shirin Ebadi of Iran

(88) Nazanin Afshin-Jam of Iran

and the list goes on, but I think you get the picture

Foolster41, you stated :

45ch: "Every time a "christian" commits a crime, he is doing it, not from a warped interpretation of christian ideology but every time a muslim commits a crime, he is doing exactly according to islamic ideology ?"

That lies SOLEY with what the PERSON who commits the crime says. the truth is, there are MANY Mulsims who cite Quarnic verses to back up what they do, however as you show below you can't even furnish ONE Christian who cites biblical verse to do likewise. (I wouldn't be surprised if you could, but I highly doubt you can match number for number cases of Muslims).

Comment :

The muslims who cite Quranic verses, do they still have free will ?

Lets say you know that eating too much candy is bad for you and yet you indulge in candy. is the candy making you eat it, or is it your free will ?

The many muslims who cite Quranic verses are criminals justifying their crime and has nothing to do with Islam making them do it against their free will because if Islam never existed, they would find some other ideology as an excuse for their crimes.

Before Islam ever came into existence, people committed crime based on varying belief systems.

How did Cain murder his brother Abel ? if not based on some kind of belief that murdering his brother was the right thing to do.

If Islam never existed, do you think mankind would be better off ? when it is very evident that before Islam, there was a time when 100% of mankind sinned

Adam and Eve both sinned and there were only two human beings on earth, so 100% of mankind sinned.

Adam and Eve sinned based on a belief system that was sold to them by the serpent in the garden.

Foolster41, you stated :

I said: "Could you please point out specific scriptural justification each on cites so we can examine whether they are in fact using scripture as justification (rather than just claiming to be Christian)? You're the one making the claim,
so I think it's fair you do the research on this."

45ch said: "All criminals act on a belief system based on either religion, race, sexual orientation, political orientation, gender superiority, nationalism etc etc and their crimes are no less dangerous than a person committing a crime based solely on religion. Would you say that Hitler or Stalin who acted on a non-religious belief system, were any less dangerous ?"

You couldn't answer my question, and instead go off on a tangent. Noted.

Comment :

I did answer your question by stating that belief systems that are not based on religion can also produce criminals.

Does it make it less of a crime if it is not religious based ?

Was Hitler less dangerous because his belief system was not based on christianity ?

Is it more dangerous to be a criminal muslim than to be a criminal "christian" ?

Foolster41, you stated :

45ch: "Even if Timothy McVeigh was an agnostic, it does not mean he was not acting on a belief system."
Can you furnish proof to this claim? Basicly you're just saying "even if you're right you're wrong." Childish.

Comment :

I did not say you are wrong, you are right in saying that Timothy McVeigh was agnostic.

What was Timothy McVeigh's belief system ?

what I was saying is that it does not matter whether he was a christian or not, Timothy McVeigh used his free will to commit a horrendous crime based on a belief system that stated that the US govt was up to no good both in domestic and foreign policy

ref : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timot