"But we have to acknowledge that 'kill the unbelievers' is an awkward verse"

Ahh the old Koran is a HISTORY BOOK argument so that means its 'Not for ALL men for ALL time ' then is it. Of course the old dog eared Allegorical and LITERAL verse argument too but funny that when pushed no Mohemmadan can tell you which is which and where the list is or whats more important WHO decides which is which. Just like the 'it can only be understood in Ancient AMBIGUOUS Arabic' argument which of course destroys another thing the Koran claims for itself that it is 'Clear and EASILY understood'
These ILLOGICAL Mohammedans tie themselves in knots when they try and defend the indefensible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Msi2H9gLhMQ

FROM ARTICLE..."Some verses are literal, some are metaphorical, but the Koran doesn't say which is which."....

Well that clears things up...So how do you know which ones are literal? In order not to offend Allah, you should probably consider them all literal, and act on them in a literal way...9:5 included...

Ahhh, so how do you TELL which is which?

Frankly, it's kind of easy with the OT - anything involving talking snakes or impossibly large wooden boats or men surviving within a whale's stomach and surviving would have to be.

The gospels almost completely allegorical/metaphorical - they had to be, as they were written in a hostile political environment; the Romans would have understood Jesus to be a political figure (as the scion of the House of David), one the Jews could rally around (alive or dead) to threaten Roman hegemony in the eastern Mediterranean region. But talk about "helping the blind to see" (helping someone understand something they didn't before) or "raising the dead" (reinducting someone back into the fold) are still common metaphors today, and are a good clue as to where to start looking for them.

But how is "Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them" metaphorical? The whole chapter seems pretty plain-spoken to me.

Maybe all Muhammad meant was an exasperated saying something like the way you might hear a teen girl saying "ooh I'm going to kill him" after finding out her boyfriend did something she did not like.

"Islamic apologists in the West do often attempt to claim that it doesn't apply to today or to any situation beyond the life of Muhammad..."

Save a forest--Edit the Qur'an!

Really, by the time all the experts had explained it all away, the Qur'an would be a "noble" book of three pages held together with a staple at the top left corner. Or, the right corner, if it is written in Arabic.

The agenda of these "amigos" is to inoculate an unsuspecting public against the truth and the horror that is Islam.

The basic problem, that will never change and is only getting worse, is that most people, on average, are just plain stupid and lazy. This plain fact is magnified ten fold on the internet.

When you couple below average intelligence with lack of initiative to learn, along with the attention spans of gnats, our society is pretty much doomed.

It's clear everywhere you go. How often to your read blogs where the blogger will post a link to an article and then excerpt a paragraph below the link? Bloggers do that because they know very few people will bother clicking on the link to read the whole thing. Sometimes they even beseech their readers to "read it all". Yeah, good luck with that.

Even videos get the same short cut. I'll read a blog that posts an 8 minute video with a pointer to "go to 4:35 for relevant part". Cripes, people! You're surfing the internet, which by definition means you have nothing better to do, and you can't watch an 8 minute video? That's been embedded for you? Sheesh.

The point of this diatribe is that it's maddening to still see people refuse to understand that Muslims do not use words the same way we do. This fact is obvious to anyone who bothers to take the time to read what Muslims themselves make no attempt to hide. You just have to read it. And not hate your own culture so much that you agree with what you read.

"...God has no love for aggressors..."

Tell them the rest, Sheik Rahman--to Muslims, an "aggressor" is anyone who resists the spread of Islam in any way. It is an act of aggression to fight back against the Islamic domination machine.

Islamo-speak.

The feel-good shepherds say: Hey all you nervous sheep out there. Just ignore those sulking sheep with the fangs and claws. Those fangs are not real. Those claws are not real. They are just metaphorical!

I can't speak for the Jew and the Muslim, but the minister is just a credentialed clown.

Jesus Himself said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father but by me" (John 14:6). If I call myself a Christian, I should feel very, very uncomfortable about toying with anything that Jesus the Messiah says. End of story.

Of course Christ's words sound bad if Jesus is only "nice guy" or even another merely human prophet. But if this is God Himself, in the flesh, who has come to pay in His own body the final sacrifice for our sins and conquer death on our behalf, what more can possibly be said?

As for election, I seem to recall Paul speaking of how it excludes our boasting (Ephesians 2) and Moses telling the Israelites that they had no reason to gloat, but that God was simply his own love and his faithfulness to his own promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Israel (Deuteronomy. 7: 7-8).

Indeed, the minister sounds like the typical theological liberal who does all the running he can to remain a respectful five paces behind his cultured despisers.
These are the same people who, for a century, have been pushing the suicide of Christianity.

By the way, Spirit Wolf, I don't think "resurrection" means simply that Jesus was brought back into the fold. He IS the fold. I believe that he really rose from the dead; and if he didn't, there's no point in letting Christianity go on.

So, is it 'untrue', 'out of context',... or simply allegorical that:

(1) The Jews are the chosen people
(2) Christianity is the only way to God
(3) Kill the unbeliever

Hmmm, which one doesn't seem to fit with the others here?

To me, these seem to be fundamental truths that distinguish these religions from one another, not the "untruths". Furthermore, can't they all be true simultaneously?

When Jesus said: "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by ME" (John 14:6), I thought he was only re-stating his central message. Is this just as problematic for Christians now as the verse of the sword for this minister? Wow.

I'm all for interfaith dialogue and understanding -- but it always seems to dilute core beliefs, make its adherents appear disingenuous, and produce a common denominator that comes off as meaningless claptrap.

Emphasizing similarities of faiths and beliefs is what it should be about, not abdicating core principles. I guess that approach would leave Islam glaringly exposed.

Maybe I can threaten an individual and then use the 'taken out of context' defence.Sheik Rahman should explain this to the believers.

The entire article reads like some sort of comedy routine.

'The room then grew quiet as each stood and recited what he regarded as the “untruths” in his own faith. [why did they put untruths in quotes?] The minister said that one “untruth” for him was that “Christianity is the only way to God.” The rabbi said for him it was the notion of Jews as “the chosen people.” And the sheik said for him it was the “sword verses” in the Koran, like “kill the unbeliever.”'

That so many people could even sit in that group and listen to that entire presentation and not stand up and shout their outrage shows the decrepit state of the church in the West.

Spirit Wolf (why use the phrase spirit if you are not a believer in the spiritual?) you should read Lee Strobel, a former atheist, he shows how there is much evidence to support the resurrection. That should be your initial focus, if Jesus did not rise from the dead then Christianity is false, meaningless and worthless. But if Jesus did rise from the dead then surely that should have some impact on even the most hardened disbeliever. Everything else is secondary, if he did rise from the dead and therefore was much more than a common man then any miracles he did are clearly possible and that too should impact one's thinking. But remember that no matter how intellectually you approach the story of Jesus, ultimately you would need to be moved by the Holy Spirit to actually see the entire picture and believe. It is more than just an intellectual exercise but that is the start for someone who has rejected the story already.

what this muslim cleric fails to say is how do you explain "out of context" to those pious muslims while they chop off a head of an infidel? l mean we in the non-Muslim world would not give a rat's ass about islam except for those pesky pious muslim who do most of the killing in the name of their allah.

The New York Times rushing to the rescue with a puff-piece about Islam. A liberal Christian and a liberal Jew yucking it up with a "liberal" (i.e. disingenuous) Muslim cleric. The story contains everything the NYT loves: Islam and liberalism. With this article they kill two birds with one stone: Islamic theology and history get whitewashed and liberalism gets credit for "bringing people together". Of course, this is after the NYT has just barely finished savaging the Roman Catholic church and Pope Benedict XVI (yet again).

I'm glad the crowd laughed. Nothing like a good time and a good meal before your execution.

In the hybrid religion of Oneness then, the rep of Christian beliefs calls for more inclusiveness, the Jewish rep for less exclusiveness, the Mohammadan for less Koranic sanctioned savageness. The first two essentially abandon the core tenets of their faith. For the Christian to say there are other ways to God rather than Christ is the equivalent of a Mohammadan saying Mohammad is not Allah’s last prophet.

While the first two concede their religion, they feel the Mohammadan stating his displeasure for MURDERING PEOPLE somehow places all three on the same plane.

Lazarus was dead dead for 3 days. He already "stinketh". I don't think it was some back in the fold thing.

To 45ch

If you take all the hate out of the Koran, there's nothing left.

I gotta love these "interfaith" meetings because generally the composition of them is just short of pathetic. Usually you have a liberal, weak tea Christian minister and a liberal Jewish Rabbi. Both of whom who are not truly comfortable or really have much faith in their chosen religions and always genuflect towards the Muslim in their group.

If anything these meetings show how morally and theologically vacant the Christian and Jewish participants are. The thing is the devout Jew and Christian don't need to compare notes with other faiths in order to feel comfortable or strengthen their own faith.

In terms of finding common ground, Jews and Christians along with secularists/atheists have none with Islam.

45ch, Deuteronomy 20:16 referred to particular tribes - the Hittites, Amorites, etc, and to a particular place (the promised land) and particular time many hundreds of years BC. The reason was also made clear in Deuteronomy 20:18, in that leaving remnants of those tribes alive in the new homeland would result in them corrupting the Jews.

Bloodthirsty, without doubt, but not a charter to spread out to all other lands, and to murder all non-believers until the whole world is subjugated to your particular religion.

A little OT, but still related:

I saw Rick Warren on Meet the Press this morning.

One of his statements made me gag.

He said something like: Al-Qaeda (Osama bin Laden) no more represents Islam than the KKK represents Christianity.

Oh really? What SPECIFIC statments of belief or SPECIFIC actions attributed to al-Qaeda can we find direct repudiation as "entirely not Islamic" by several diverse and widely respected Islamic leaders or authorities?

It would be hard to find a Christian leader or scholar who WOULD NOT immediately and explicitly repudiate almost EVERY aspect of the KKK.

The room then grew quiet as each stood and recited what he regarded as the "untruths" in his own faith. The minister said that one "untruth" for him was that "Christianity is the only way to God." The rabbi said for him it was the notion of Jews as "the chosen people." And the sheik said for him it was the "sword verses" in the Koran, like "kill the unbeliever."
....................

At their most simplistic, the first two statements, from the minister and the rabbi, are merely exclusive—many Jews and Christians feel "special", and feel that people outside their faiths are not as "special". (Please note: I realize issues run a lot deeper than this doctrinally—but I am trying to analyze this idiocy in the facile spirit in which it was proffered).

One might assume that the worst that could result from this is an exclusionary sense of spiritual superiority—people outside their faiths are not "chosen" or not "saved".

But it goes no further. The example the sheik offers from Islam, however—and how "awkward" to have to point this out!—orders believers not to feel superior to non-believers, but to—uh—kill them all. That really is pretty "awkward"!

more:

"It is a verse taken out of context," Sheik Rahman said, pointing out that the previous verse says that God has no love for aggressors. "But we have to acknowledge that 'kill the unbelievers' is an awkward verse,'"
....................

It might be possible to buy this—if the Sura of the Sword was *the only* bellicose verse in Muslim scripture. But it is not—the "Holy Qur'an" is rife with both commandments to slaughter, rob, rape and enslave unbelievers—as well as rife with ugly examples of such verses put into use against their Infidel neighbors.

The Hadith emphasize this bellicosity, with more examples of the perfect man, the "Prophet" Mohammed, inciting warfare and murder against the unbelievers.

More, even, than the above, though, is that virtually all mainstream Muslims—over their entire 1400-year history—have interpreted the command to "kill the unbeliever" quite literally.

Good thing that the "sheik's" passive, ill-informed, and credulous interfaith audiences will be unlikely to ask him about this. After all, that would be rather "awkward", no?

"What context would render it acceptable is seldom explained, although Islamic apologists in the West do often attempt to claim that it doesn't apply to today or to any situation beyond the life of Muhammad, but rather refers narrowly to a time when the early Muslims were threatened with annihilation and had to fight back strongly in order to survive"

Robert is a liar. The context is always explained. Just look at what the verses surrounding this verse say.

9:1 declares immunity from the treaty between the Muslims and the Mushrikun of Mecca as they acted treachorously by killing some Muslims.

9:4 however says this general immunity excludes "those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfil their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty". It also says "So long as they (the mushrikun) are true to you (in keeping peace), be true to them. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty." (9:7)

In explaining the justification of the command in 9:5 of an all-out war, it says "Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Messenger, and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is Allah Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe!" (9:13).

YET it still says even in this all-out war to give sanction to those mushrikun who seek it. The classical view however disregarded this context for a supersessionist view, see link below

"The problem with this interpretation -- which goes counter to the mainstream understanding of Islamic scholars in any case"

To see a reply to Spencer's arguments in this link, see: http://allahisalmighty.blogspot.com/2009/10/violence-in-judaism-christianity-and.html

Warren was incoherent on this. "There are fundamentalists in all religions".
Yes, but extremists adhering "fundamentally" to their text's faiths are more often helped out by the quran if they want to kill unbelievers than in any other faith.

He wants everyone to come to Jesus, so he wants to attract everyone, and he feels he can't do that without telling everyone else that they're a good person, essentially. Telling anyone they're living by a bad playbook might insult. Can't have that and still get them to listen to the gospel.

Nothing awkward, or anything to be ashamed of, about this verse. No, it was not for a specific time, it was revealed for specific situations, situations where anyone would do the same, WAR and COMBAT.
To understand these verses you have to look at the situation within which it was revealed and the way in which Muhammad and his companions acted upon it.

The verse was revealed in Medina before the Muslim went to war with the Meccan ARMY. In Medina lived also non-Muslims. If the Verse KILL THE UNBELIEVERS referred to all non-muslims then the Muslims would of killed the non-muslims in Medina, but they didn't, if the verse included civilians, then the Muslim would of also killed the the civilians of Mecca upon taking the city but they didn't, to capture a city and not harm the civilians was unheard of at that time and Muhammad set a new precedent for mercy. So from the above it is apparent that kill the unbelievers refers to situations of combat and those to kill are the enemy combatants. Again these verses are situation specific, so when US soldiers invade and occupy Muslim lands, the situation to act upon these verses arise and there is nothing to be ashamed off.

Also during the time of the Prophet, the term KUFFR/KAFFIR was used as a derogatory term to describe hostile non-Muslims. Non-Muslims who were neutral were referred to by their religion, e.g people of the book. What nation does not ascribe derogotray names to its enemies and what nations does not instruct it soldiers to kill enemy combatants during battle?

The hypocrisy and double standards of you people is astounding.

Mohamet is NOT a "prophet."

Mohamet is a Con Man Warlord Mass-Murderer Beheader Thief Pedophile Polygamist. You got "punk'ed" by a Psychopath Warlord, jowen!

Shame, SHAME ON ISLAM, the Barbaric Mass-Murder ideology that worships a pagan moon deity that doesn't exist! You worship the Warlord, is what you whack your heads to. Idiots.

The imbecility of you people is astounding. Simply astounding.

Breaking News: No more minarets allowed in Switzerland! The Swiss voted by referendum. Goodbye and Good Riddance minarets! Bravo! Stay in your own Mohammedan countries, Barbarians!

According to Bill Warner of the Center for the Study of Islam and Politics, 61% of koranic verses denounce unbelievers, and 97% of the ahadith references on jihad concern violence to spread Islam; the other 3% are about an inner spiritual struggle.
Glad I'm not the one having to 'splain all that to audiences, whew!

45ch wrote:

"Also, just because the govts. of certain muslim countries ( like Saudi Arabia ) are intolerant about certain aspects of non-muslim life, does not in anyway threaten western civilization"

This, like nearly everything else 45ch claims, is incorrect.

Consider just one fact, the textbooks disseminated in the
West by Saudi Arabia:

Among the tens of thousands of schools using these textbooks worldwide is the Islamic Saudi Academy, run by the Saudi Embassy, in Fairfax, VA.

The Saudi Arabian Ministry of Education publishes and disseminates teachings that Muslims are to hate and treat as "enemies" other religious believers, including other, non-Wahhabi Muslims. Those were our findings in a 2006 study of Saudi government textbooks. And despite the media outcry that followed, our most recent investigation shows that Saudi textbooks, now available on the Saudi Ministry of Education website, have not been cleaned up. The same violent and intolerant lessons remain.

These textbooks assert that it is permissible for a Muslim to kill an "apostate," an "adulterer," those practicing "major polytheism," and homosexuals. They promote global jihad as an "effort to wage war against the unbelievers," including for the purpose of "calling [infidels] to the faith." They continue to teach that "the hour [of judgment] will not come until the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them," that Shiite practices amount to "polytheism" (see above), that the Christian Crusades never ended, and that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion are historical fact.

http://www.campus-watch.org/article/id/5594

lol, yeah, right! Especially those African islamic countries you listed.

What do you think we are, stupid?

I submit to all that anyone who asserts, as 45ch did, that "muslims do not follow the controversial verses in the Koran" does not need to be taken seriously. Enough already.

drjz: That is very sad, he's sadly heading down the slope of multiculturalism, which leads to talking about "the three abrahamic faiths" and then "every path leads to god". (I don't care what you beleive, all religions can NOT be true.) I've stopped taking him seriously for a while now.

On the other hand, I was very glad to hear my pastor talk during Sunday very candidly about Islam and what it promotes during a Sunday morning message.

Thinkthrice: Well said. The Truth should make people feel comfortable indeed, myself included.

45ch/loveverybody seems to have an extreme allergy to truth. He has published his list of "non sharia" states list over and over again and I have refuted a good number of those names a number of times, and asked him to stop including those nations in his list, yet he REPEATS the list unedited. Some of these countries do INDEED practice sharia law. I haven't even gotten around to doing research on all of them, I looked at about 1/2.

Gambia - False imprisonment for preaching, as a part of sharia law against non-Muslims proselytizing.
Somalia - Amputations for theft[1], as prescribed by sharia law
Turkey - Imprisonment and civil rights abuses against non-muslims, according to you guessed it sharia law

Sources:
[1]http://www.jihadwatch.org/2009/09/sixth-minnesota-jihadist-an-american-convert-to-islam-killed-in-somalia.html
Other two can be found in search of Jihadwatch (I lost the URLS)

45ch wrote:

"Also, just because the govts. of certain muslim countries ( like Saudi Arabia ) are intolerant about certain aspects of non-muslim life, does not in anyway threaten western civilization"

This, like nearly everything else 45ch claims, is incorrect.

Consider just one fact, the textbooks disseminated in the
West by Saudi Arabia:

Among the tens of thousands of schools using these textbooks worldwide is the Islamic Saudi Academy, run by the Saudi Embassy, in Fairfax, VA.

The Saudi Arabian Ministry of Education publishes and disseminates teachings that Muslims are to hate and treat as "enemies" other religious believers, including other, non-Wahhabi Muslims. Those were our findings in a 2006 study of Saudi government textbooks. And despite the media outcry that followed, our most recent investigation shows that Saudi textbooks, now available on the Saudi Ministry of Education website, have not been cleaned up. The same violent and intolerant lessons remain.

These textbooks assert that it is permissible for a Muslim to kill an "apostate," an "adulterer," those practicing "major polytheism," and homosexuals. They promote global jihad as an "effort to wage war against the unbelievers," including for the purpose of "calling [infidels] to the faith." They continue to teach that "the hour [of judgment] will not come until the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them," that Shiite practices amount to "polytheism" (see above), that the Christian Crusades never ended, and that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion are historical fact.

http://www.campus-watch.org/article/id/5594

45ch, you say Islamic nations just need more time to reform themselves, and compare that to the overcoming of Jim Crow in the U.S.

You thus neglect to mention that whereas the U.S. Constitution, from the very beginning, could be amended, and was amended, Islam presents strong resistance to any change. The Qur'an is not a contract, like the U.S. Constitution. It is considered "uncreated." I.e., it is supposed by Muslims to have existed eternally with God before the world was created. It is taken to be a verbatim transcript of God's own words.

In Sahih Bukhari, the most canonical of hadith collections, Muhammad said, "Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him."

You compare Qur'an to the Old Testament, pointing out the Old Testament's violent verses. You say that most Muslims ignore the Qur'an's violent verses in the same way that Jews ignore their own violent texts. You thus neglect some central realities: Islam is a proselytizing faith and has about one hundred times as many adherents as does Judaism. Judaism is not a proselytizing faith. The Qur'an and Hadith contain commands for worldwide domination, and you have the numbers to do it, too. And whereas the Qur'an contains open-ended commands, not limited to time or place, to convert non-muslims, or else subjugate non-Muslims under the rule of Islamic law, or else kill them, the commands to do violence in the Old Testament are very clearly directed toward specific groups at specific times. The violent commands in the Qur'an are prescriptive for Muslims for now and for the future. The violence in the Old Testament is descriptive of events in a long ago past. Judaism contains no plan to subjugate the world under Jewish law. Islam from the beginning has had plans to dominate. And under current demographic trends, as many experts have noted, Europe will be majority-Muslim well before the end of this century.

You say that Islam is not a threat to Western civilization. I'll just point out that all 57 Muslim nations recently signed on to the Cairo Declaration of Human Rights, which in essence substitutes Islamic law for the U.N. Declaration of Human Rights.

Even though many Islamic nations do not apply Sharia law to the maximum, Islamic nations all have an Islamic law ethos to one degree or another, in other words, an atmosphere that more or less suppresses freedom of conscience and subjugates non-Muslims to second-class legal status, leaving them too often as targets in a sort of legal free fire zone where anyone can take advantage of them and they have no means of legal redress. That is why so many Muslim nations have ever dwindling populations of non-Muslims. They all gradually convert to Islam, leave, or get killed. They are too often restricted to all the lowest level or sh*t jobs to do in the economic system, when they can get jobs at all.

Muslim-majority nations are notorious for horrific human rights records, and even in the most liberal of them -- for example Indonesia -- there are laws restricting freedom of conscience to a degree that would make any believer in real religious freedom cringe. In Indonesia, a non-orthodox Muslim was threatened with a 5-year jail term for teaching a non-orthodox form of Islam. He decided to retract it. In Indonesia Christians were also threatened with prosecution and possible 5-year jail terms merely for proselytizing! And that's in perhaps the most liberal of Muslim nations. Saudi Arabia's government on the other hand is a hell hole of vicious evil that should be utterly destroyed, if only it were strategic for the West to do so.

Sure, 45ch, reform is not impossible, but you hugely underestimate the difficulties in this case, and the dangers Islam presents to the West. Islam is a greater threat than communism or Nazism, because Islam harnesses God to the totalitarian program, and Islam has more than a billion backers, and Islam has existed far longer than either of the other two evils.

In Sahih Bukhari, the most canonical of hadith collections, Muhammad said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.' And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally and their reckoning will be with Allah."

In other words, if you are not a Muslim, Muhammad says your blood and property will not be safe from Muslims.

Ladies and gentlemen

45ch has been spamming his/ her/ its little list of demands, as given above, over and over in numerous other threads since s/he first appeared under the laughable moniker of 'loveverybody'.

I wonder whether 45ch will change Demand # 3 'Drastically change US foreign policy to approximate the foreign policy of Switzerland where no terrorist attacks take place'

now that those wicked, wicked Islamophobic Swiss have voted to ban the minaret and muezzin within Switzerland?

Because even if the Swiss are 'neutral' externally, they have just publicly blocked the expansion of Islam, just a little, within their own territory.

The Swiss are not forbidding mosques...yet... but they have decided to deny Muslims their main means (at the moment) of visually and aurally 'dominating' the landscape.

Wait for the paroxysms of Minaret Rage all over Dar Al Islam. I understand there have already been calls for Muslims worldwide to boycott Swiss products.

45ch has repeatedly, in various postings, claimed there have been no Muslim terrorist attacks in Switzerland.

Actually, there's been - if I recall correctly - at least one case of Sudden Jihad Syndrome against ordinary Swiss people in the street.

You will find it here in the jihadwatch archives, in the comments thread to *this* article:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2006/08/british-jews-warned-of-rise-in-hate-crime.html

Hugo Schmidt-Fischer | August 8, 2006 6:29 PM
Even placid Switzerland is working itself into frenzy.

'On Thursday August 3rd, car drivers in Geneva were threatened by a man wielding a 20 inch machete knife. The 38 year old rowdy waved the blade into open car windows on rue Gourgas, aggressively questioning drivers about the Middle-East conflict.

'*Just three days earlier, a Turkish man hacked up two pedestrians with an axe on a shopping street in the vicinity of Basle* {my emphasis - dda}.

Media reporting on these incidents was as usual very subdued.'

And there has also been at least one major jihad terror raid attempted - by Muslim plotters resident within Switzerland - but fortunately, foiled by those pesky Infidel authorities. Note that the plotters *also* engaged in major crime against Swiss infidels.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2006/06/swiss-foiled-hit-on-israeli-jet.html

If this plot had not been foiled, 45ch's nonsensical claim that there have been no jihad terror raids in Switzerland, would be false. One was *attempted*, but - fortunately - failed.

If one scrolls down through the comments field for that article about the thwarted attack, one finds that some of the plotters were resident on Swiss soil and had carried out robberies against Swiss victims, as this posting explains:

Yojimbo | June 8, 2006 1:59 PM
'Investigations also found that one of the members of the group had links to Mohamed Achraf, the suspected mastermind of a plot to blow up the National Court in Madrid.

'*Achraf was arrested in Switzerland* {my emphasis - dda} and then extradited to Spain in April last year.

'According to the statement, justice officials moved in on *a group carrying out thefts across the Zurich region in early 2005* {my emphasis - dda}.

'Subsequent investigations found that *part of the profits from the thefts were going towards financing a terrorist organisation and that the arrested people had contacts with similar cells in France and Spain* {my emphasis - dda: in other words: Muslims resident in Switzerland were robbing Swiss non-Muslims, in order to raise cash for...JIHAD}...

...'the May 12 raids had subsequently led to more arrests in three cantons. The seven people are currently being detained due to fears over escape and collusion risks."

http://www.swissinfo.org/eng/front/detail/Plans_to_attack_Israeli_passenger_jet_confirmed.html

And pursuant to my posting above:

I have just been reading through my little e-file of stories that have appeared from Switzerland, and it strikes me that there are probably two main reasons why the Swiss have, so far, not been subjected to openly mass-violent manifestations of jihad.

One is similar to the American reason: the Swiss citizenry are, to some extent, armed. The Muslims in-country are lying low because the Swiss have teeth and claws and if provoked, might just possibly *use* them.

The second reason is that (although there have been notable Dhimmi Moments) there have also been a steady trickle of Anti-Dhimmi Moments in which the Swiss, in-country, have said NO to Islam, and resolutely enforced their own laws and customs:

Here's one, as shared by a Swiss (?) poster here in 2006:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2006/05/rice-no-jizyah-for-the-thug-in-chief.html#c218951

Hugo Schmidt-Fischer | May 22, 2006 6:04 PM
...
'From time to time, you do find signs of sanity in Europe.

'A refreshing signal of anti-dhimmitude from Switzerland today.

'The authorities of the Swiss Canton of St. Gall deported the Turkish husband and a father of a 21-year old lady who had been forced into marriage.

'The husband and the father of the lady were first detained two weeks ago when the Turkish woman filed a criminal complaint against threats and coercion from her parents and husband. The woman had been forced into marriage during a visit to Turkey about a year ago. She refused to live with her designated husband after he obtained a stay permit for Switzerland this year in April.

'The woman has been subjected to death threats from her husband and her family {nota bene - here's the typical Muslim modus operandi - dda}.

'The public prosecutor and the foreign police of the Canton of St. Gall took these threats and events seriously.

'Marriages which are not executed are seen as grave inflictions on family honour in fundamental Islamic circles. Honour killings are the only way to restore the honour of the family in these circles, it was said.

'After holding the two in custody for two weeks, the foreign police promptly deported the father of the lady and her husband.

'Their rights to suspensive measures for appeal were revoked, based on special provisions in administrative law for the protection of individuals.

'They were dispatched to Turkey and are prohibited to return for years.

'Additional measures of the immigration authorities against other family members are being reviewed presently. This is done for the protection of the woman.
'
*Moreover, the authorities announced this is furthermore being done in order to set an unmistakable sign that infringements of fundamental Swiss principles of law shall not be tolerated* {nota bene}.

http://www.nzz.ch/2006/05/22/il/newzzENIHTB5Q-12.html

The NO that is delivered in a case like that, makes it more, not less likely, that other Muslims in Switzerland will toe the line. The more boldly and consistently non-Muslim countries set boundaries and *refuse* to tolerate Muslim bad behaviour of any kind, the meeker the Muslims will be.

Wise words from the English-language press in China, circa 1867 (at a time when Muslims in western and south-western China had attempted a regional Jihad, and been promptly suppressed):

“If politeness and ceremony be observed toward Mohammedans, they imagine they are feared and become arrogant;

'but in showing severity and rudeness, they are impressed with fear and respect, and they are supple and manageable.”

--North China Herald,1867

The more the Europeans stand up to the Muslims, provided they are prepared to say No and go on saying No - and respond to Muslim nonsense with an even louder NO and the resolute enforcement of the Law - the better things will be for everybody.

And finally, since 45ch thinks people in Switzerland have no problems with Muslims and Islam, here are a few more nasty little odds and ends.

First, an honor murder: a Muslim man, resident in Switzerland, bludgeoned his uppity wife to death with a hammer and claimed he was doing it in 'self-defence'.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2006/08/swiss-charge-pakistani-over-honor-killing-of-wife.html

And a church was shat on by a gang of young teenage boys...none of Christian background; two from Serbia-Montenegro and two from Bosnia.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2006/11/church-desecrated-in-switzerland.html

And two more horrifying cases of Muslims Going Jihad and murdering, or trying to murder, Swiss citizens.

First, in the comments field to this jihadwatch article

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2007/04/fitzgerald-and-because-i-love-you-so-much-he-loves-you-too.html

European commenters chip in with links and quoted excerpts from a news story about a Muslim who had been *a soldier in the Swiss army* {hmmm - dda} takes a gun and shoots up a lot of people in a bar in Baden.

Hugo Schmidt-Fischer | April 13, 2007 2:17 PM

"Don't let in those 7,000 Iraqis. It is suicidal. Nobody can screen them. Learn from the mistakes of others. Consider what is happening in Europe.

'Again just today people in Switzerland were shocked to read that a 26 year old employee of a bank randomly fired an assault rifle in a bar in the small town of Baden.
'This happened yesterday evening on Thursday, 12. April 2007, at 21:40 in the evening. Police arrested the man 10 minutes later after his ammunition ran out.

'Two teenagers were wounded, one of which in critical conditions. Two men aged 50 and 59 were also shot. A fifth victim, a 71-year old man died on the spot.

'Most of the newspapers parrot what one can read in the reputable Neue Zürcher Zeitung. Here’s a free translation.

“The motive is still entirely unclear, the interrogation is difficult. The statements of the man are blurry and contradictory.”

“The perpetrator, according to Police sources is a 26 year old bank employee from the region of Baden, who works at one of the large Zurich banks. He attended public school in Baden and makes an intelligent impression”.

'Such an act is without precedence in this canton, the chief of the cantonal police said.

'But readers of Jihadwatch have heard from time to time about such “acts without precedence” before.

'As usual, one must dig to find out the background of this seemingly surprising tragedy.

'The Blick newspaper, a non-politically correct Swiss daily, explains that this 26-year old Swiss citizen of Iraqi roots grew up in Baden. He was employed as a janitor at a bank. He is known to the police from about one week ago, due to a case of domestic violence between a father and son. The man who shot into the bar on Thursday apparently was the victim of that domestic quarrel.

S'o here we have it again. A seemingly intelligent Swiss national. Went to school, and was employed, how else, in a bank. Out of the blue he goes and shoots around in a hotel bar until his cartridge runs out. The public is shocked confounded. He was not even intoxicated. For most of the newspapers that is all we need to hear and need to know.

'It starts to make more sense as we learn that this was a man of Iraqi extraction. He had an argument with his father. Apparently the police was alerted. There was violence.

'And then suddenly something breaks. The guy takes a gun, goes out and shoots around wildly in a bar. The script is known. Elementary education. Simple job, Violence in the family. Something snaps.

'Inculcated by Islam, these people always have a scapegoat. And a predisposition to violence.

Don't let this happen in America."

More on the same incident, in the thread attached to this article (click, then scroll down)
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2007/04/anti-jihad-caucus.html

"DP111 | April 13, 2007 7:48 PM

Mr Spencer - Alert

It is not on the wires yet - but will be soon.

Sudden Jihad Syndrome in Switzerland?

Swiss soldier of Iraqi origin but brought up in Switzerland, has gone on a shooting rampage using a service rifle. One dead and several injured.

http://www.20min.ch/news/schweiz/story/15586039

The Swiss are totally befuddled as to why a Swiss soldier (Iraqi origin - Muslim?), grew up in Switzerland, accepted in Switzerland with all the benefits that Switzerland can bestow, suddenly did this act. They are confused, totally confused. No idea, none whatever, nada, zilch."

And here's a lot more on the same ghazwa raid, from another poster:

Allahfanculo | April 13, 2007 8:53 PM
«Thank God the perp ran out of ammo»

Beim Amoklauf mit dem Sturmgewehr in der Pizzeria La Cappella in Baden AG sind ein 71-jähriger Mann getötet und vier Personen verletzt worden. Die Aargauer Kantonspolizei sprach von grossem Glück, dass es nicht zu einer noch grösseren Katastrophe kam.

A 71yo man was killed and four other persons were wounded during a suicide run with an attack rifle in the Pizzeria "La Capella" [which means chapel] in Baden AG. Police were speaking of great fortune that it didn't amount to an even greater catastrophe.

Beim verhafteten Täter handelt es sich um einen 26-jährigen Schweizer mit Irakischen Wurzeln. Der Amokschütze feuerte mit einem Sturmgewehr der Schweizer Armee um 21.40 Uhr vor und im Hotel «La Cappella» wahllos um sich, wie Urs Winzenried, Kripochef der Aargauer Kantonspolizei, am Freitag an einer Medienkonferenz in Aarau sagte.

'The perp who was arrested [too bad - he should have been shot IMHO] is a 26 yo Swiss Man with Iraqi roots. [sic - I am only translating this..] The suicde shooter was using an attack rifle form the Swiss Army at 9.40 PM in front of and inside the Hotel "La Capella". [...]

Völlig unvermittelt geschossen

Completely unannounced sho[o]ting [Kids - I am not making this up]

Vor dem Hotel schoss der Täter völlig unvermittelt auf zwei Jugendliche im Alter von 15 und 16 Jahren, teilte die Kapo Aargau weiter mit. Der 16-jährige befindet sich in kritischem Zustand. Er hatte mindestens zwei Bauchdurchschüsse und schwerste Verletzungen erlitten. Der 15-Jährige erlitt einen Oberarmdurchschuss und einen Streifschuss am Bauch.

'In front of the hotel the perp began to shoot two teenagers ages 15 and 16 completely without warning. [A true brave jihadist warrior of illah]

[.. description of wounds and injuries]

Trotz Bauchdurchschuss ins Spital gefahren

Der Täter begab sich danach in die Hotelbar, und schoss wahllos um sich. Der 71-Jährige, ein unbeteiligter Gast des Hotels und Restaurants, war sofort tot. Er wurde von insgesamt vier Schüssen in den Kopf sowie in den Oberkörper und die Beine getroffen. Zwei weitere Männer im Alter von 50 und 54 Jahren, die an der Bar sassen, wurden ebenfalls getroffen. Der 50-jähriger Mann war mit einem Bauchdurchschuss selbst ins Spital gefahren. Der der 59-Jährige kam mit Streifschüssen an Bauch und Oberarm davon.

'The perp then entered the bar area and began shooting wildly. The 71yo victim was dead on the spot. Two men 50 and 54 yo were also shot [.. desc. of injuries]
[From the description these rifles shoot quite a few rounds FAST]

Täter und Opfer aus dem Raum Baden

'Perp and victims both from area Baden
'Beim Täter handelt es sich um einen 26-jährigen Schweizer Bürger irakischer Herkunft. Er ist in der Schweiz aufgewachsen und hier zur Schule gegangen. Täter und Opfer stammten aus dem Grossraum Baden. Der Täter wurde von Winzenried als intelligenter Mann geschildert, der als Bankangestellter in Zürich arbeitet. Er hatte für den Amoklauf seine persönliche Armeewaffe verwendet, ein Sturmgewehr 90. Die Hintergründe der Tat sind noch unklar. Der 26-Jährige war der Polizei aber bekannt. Vor einigen Tagen wurde die Polizei wegen häuslicher Gewalt vorstellig. Es handelte sich dabei allerdings um eine «nicht gravierende» Form von Gewalt, teilte die Polizei mit.

The perp is a 26 yo Swiss man of iraqi background. [LOL!!! SWISS??!!!!] He grew up in Switzerland [among well-meaning fools] and went to schol here. Perp and victims both came from the area of Baden. The perp was described by W. as an intelligent man, who is working [what? still working?] as a bank clerk in Zürich. He had used a personal issue army weapon, an "Attack Rifle 90". The background for the violence is still unclear. [LOL LOL LOL.. The dead haven't been buried yet and the media are already cleaning up the true reasons]. The 26-yo had been known to police, however for domestic violence [Oh, *really*??!! HOW could any of us have guessed that one!] Just a few days ago police had contacted the man at homne regarding domestic violence. But it wasn't a "very severe" form of violence, the police stated. [God, help us.. with police like these..]

Keine Serienschüsse

'no rapid-fire [ damn, the bar shooting scene sure suggests otherwise]

'Winzenried sprach von grossem Glück, «dass nicht eine noch grössere Katastrophe passiert ist» und der Schütze nicht mehr als ein mit 20 Schüssen geladenes Magazin bei sich gehabt habe. Dem Täter sei in der Bar des Hotels die Munition ausgegangen. Das Sturmgewehr sei auf Einzel- nicht auf Serienschuss gestellt gewesen.

'W. spoke of great luck that "a bigger catastrophe did not take place". as the shooter only had a 20-shot magazine with him. The perp ran out of ammo at the hotel bar. The rifle was set to single shot instead of double shot. [Next time, jihadists, don;t forget to bring more ammo and set your rifles properly - like good little Swiss jihadists]

Die Polizei hatte den Täter am Donnerstagabend um 21.55 Uhr überwältigt und verhaftet. Er sitzt in Untersuchungshaft. Die Meldung über den Amoklauf war gemäss Polizeiangaben um 21.46 Uhr bei der Einsatzzentrale eingegangen.

'Police caught up to the perp at 9.55PM and he is now in confinement. [toilets facing mecca?] Police had been oinformed of the shooting run at 9.46PM. [those punctual Swiss]

'Das Hotel und Restaurant «La Cappella», ehemals «Kappellerhof», liegt an der Bruggerstrasse im Westen der Stadt Baden.

[location description]

'This is a cursory fast translation off the cuff. The one I made online is worse. So take your pick.

'Horrible story. If we want to avoid further things like this... we have to speak honestly about the root cause.

'islam.

How to avoid these things: NO more moslem immigration."

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2007/05/mickey-mouse-converts-takes-new-name-promotes-jihad-on-childrens-show.html#c389767

DP111 | May 6, 2007 6:57 PM
SJS ??

Unbelievable act of violence in Urner Stripclub

An Algerian cut through two Swiss from the rear the throat. The presumed author Ali Sebti is extremely volatile and ready for violence according to police, and is being looked for.

The crime occurred on Friday at 3.30 in the "tavern". The presumed author, a 40 year old resident asylum-seeker from Algeria. The victims, all adult Urner, suffered heavy injuries, partly at the throat. Two bar visitors were killed, third was heavily hurt. The landlord suffered moderately severe injuries. The nightclub hostesses saved themselves on the upper floor. The murder weapon was not found. The injuries suggested that it was a "normal knife", said Reto Habermacher, commander of the Urner canton police, to the media. Why the man acted in this manner after a dispute, the police find difficult to explain.

http://www.20min.ch/news/luzern/story/27383700

Apologies for the translation from Babelfish."

45ch's nonsensical protestations to the contrary, the Swiss have a *big* problem with Islam, just like every other non-Muslim country that has been foolish enough or unlucky enough to be colonised by significant numbers of Muslims.

It occurs to me that the stories I have posted above, featuring instances of Sudden Jihad or Muslims Running Amok, in Switzerland - Switzerland! - are not at all offtopic.

For the actions of the Muslims involved - who fired guns, or slashed throats, or whacked with a hammer, in order to kill Swiss Infidels - make perfect sense if they are understood as springing from a straightforward reading, by the perps, of 'the "sword verses" in the Koran, like "kill the unbeliever."

RE: The suggestion by 45ch that the Israelites are told by God to conquer all of the holy land. A closer reading of Deut. 20 shows that firstly it is instructions for warfare. There are compassionate grounds for allowing various men to not join the battle including even those who are faint of heart. So the entire section is premised by "WHEN THOU GOEST OUT TO BATTLE AGAINST THINE ENEMIES..." which is much different than "Goest out to battle against all" which seems to be what 45ch is suggesting. So then, having established that this entire section is not a command to go to war with all but just commands for those cases where one must go to war with enemies, verse 15 reads much differently. It is merely saying that these rules stand for all of the cities that are not otherwise called for complete destruction to clear the land of vile idol worshiping baby sacrificing cults so that God's chosen people would have one place to develop without being destroyed by unending problems associated with such a different and evil people commingling in the same land. Currently the West is facing a similar situation with Islam. Islam and the free West simply CAN NOT coexist. All things old are new again.

Deuteronomy 20
1When thou goest out to battle against thine enemies, and seest horses, and chariots, and a people more than thou, be not afraid of them: for the LORD thy God is with thee, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

2And it shall be, when ye are come nigh unto the battle, that the priest shall approach and speak unto the people,

3And shall say unto them, Hear, O Israel, ye approach this day unto battle against your enemies: let not your hearts faint, fear not, and do not tremble, neither be ye terrified because of them;

4For the LORD your God is he that goeth with you, to fight for you against your enemies, to save you.

5And the officers shall speak unto the people, saying, What man is there that hath built a new house, and hath not dedicated it? let him go and return to his house, lest he die in the battle, and another man dedicate it.

6And what man is he that hath planted a vineyard, and hath not yet eaten of it? let him also go and return unto his house, lest he die in the battle, and another man eat of it.

7And what man is there that hath betrothed a wife, and hath not taken her? let him go and return unto his house, lest he die in the battle, and another man take her.

8And the officers shall speak further unto the people, and they shall say, What man is there that is fearful and fainthearted? let him go and return unto his house, lest his brethren's heart faint as well as his heart.

9And it shall be, when the officers have made an end of speaking unto the people that they shall make captains of the armies to lead the people.

10When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it.

11And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, that all the people that is found therein shall be tributaries unto thee, and they shall serve thee.

12And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it:

13And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:

14But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.

15Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far off from thee, which are not of the cities of these nations.

16But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:

17But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:

18That they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so should ye sin against the LORD your God.

19When thou shalt besiege a city a long time, in making war against it to take it, thou shalt not destroy the trees thereof by forcing an axe against them: for thou mayest eat of them, and thou shalt not cut them down (for the tree of the field is man's life) to employ them in the siege:

20Only the trees which thou knowest that they be not trees for meat, thou shalt destroy and cut them down; and thou shalt build bulwarks against the city that maketh war with thee, until it be subdued.

Interfaith 'dialogue' between Muslims and Christians, as carried out in Otranto, on the eastern shore of Italy, in August 1480 - only 27 years after the Fall of Constantinople, and twelve years before Columbus would make his voyage west to try to 'outflank' the Empire of Islam which squatted across and blocked the trade routes to the East.

"After fourteen days, at dawn on August 12, the Ottomans {Turkish Muslims - dda} focused their fire on one of the weakest points along the walls [of Otranto]: they opened a breach and poured into the streets,

' massacring anyone in their path, and came to the cathedral, where many had taken refuge.

'They [the Muslims] broke down the doors and flooded into the temple,

'where they found the archbishop, Stefano, who was there in his pontifical vestments and with the crucifix in his hand.

'To the order that he no longer speak the name of Christ,

'because from that moment Mohammed was in command,

'the archbishop responded by exhorting the assailants to conversion,

'and at this his head was cut off with a scimitar."

From the story of the Martyrs of Otranto, as told *here*:

http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/161401?&eng=y

(link still active and functioning as of Nov 30, St Andrew's Day, 2009).

Nothing awkward, or anything to be ashamed of, about this verse. No, it was not for a specific time, it was revealed for specific situations, situations where anyone would do the same, WAR and COMBAT.
To understand these verses you have to look at the situation within which it was revealed and the way in which Muhammad and his companions acted upon them.

The verse was revealed in Medina before the Muslim went to war with the Meccan ARMY. In Medina lived also non-Muslims. If the Verse KILL THE UNBELIEVERS referred to all non-muslims then the Muslims would of killed the non-muslims in Medina before going out to war, but they didn't!! if the verse included civilians, then the Muslim would of also killed the the civilians of Mecca upon defeating the Meccan army and taking the city ,but they didn't!!! To capture a city and not harm the civilians was unheard of at that time and Muhammad set a new precedent for mercy. So from the above it is apparent that "kill the unbelievers" refers to situations of combat and those to kill are the enemy combatants. Again these verses are situation specific, so when US soldiers invade and occupy Muslim lands, the situation to act upon these verses arise and there is nothing to be ashamed of.

Also during the time of the Prophet, the term KUFFR/KAFFIR was used as a derogatory term to describe hostile non-Muslims. Non-Muslims who were neutral were referred to by their religion, e.g people of the book. What nation does not ascribe derogotray names to its enemies and what nations does not instruct it's soldiers to kill enemy combatants during battle?

The hypocrisy and double standards of you people is astounding.

Too bad Muslims don't read the Quran metaphorically, of course, it would still be a terrible read, but at least it would be seen as piss poor fiction.

45ch's five point plan:

(1) Co-opt all muslim leaders by putting them on the CIA payroll

(2) The US rendition program will apprehend all potentially dangerous militants and the next "hitler".

(3) Drastically change US foreign policy to approximate the foreign policy of Switzerland where no terrorist attacks take place

(4) Push for reforms in the muslim world so that all muslim countries will not have sharia, similar to the following muslim countries

(5) Support reformists and reform organizations in the muslim world

Do you still see a threat after the above are implemented ?

Mikeymike says:
First of all, point 3 is mutually exclusive to points 4 and 5.

Secondly, as others have pointed out, terrorist attacks do occur in Switzerland. Sweden is not involved in 'imperialist' activities in the Islamic world, and how are they going?

Thirdly, on point 1 - what if they don't want to? Are you planning to force them? And then what - imprison? Deport? What about those who will say "Yes please!" and act as spies?

On point 2: Just like that, eh? Simple! *Forehead smack* Why didn't anyone else think of that? Don't forget that Hitler used his prison time to write Mein Kampf. So, lock up the next Hitler and hope that he's not released as the next Hitler? That's your solution?

Finally, on point 5 - This is exactly the course of action that lead to the Taliban; support a cause in the hope that the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Your "solution" is flawed: unoriginal (with serious consequences), simplistic and contradictory. How about this for a solution: Demand that Muslims take responsibility for the bad apples in their midst.

Jowen sez:

"The verse was revealed in Medina before the Muslim went to war with the Meccan ARMY. In Medina lived also non-Muslims. If the Verse KILL THE UNBELIEVERS referred to all non-muslims then the Muslims would of killed the non-muslims in Medina before going out to war, but they didn't!! if the verse included civilians, then the Muslim would of also killed the the civilians of Mecca upon defeating the Meccan army and taking the city ,but they didn't!!! To capture a city and not harm the civilians was unheard of at that time and Muhammad set a new precedent for mercy. So from the above it is apparent that "kill the unbelievers" refers to situations of combat and those to kill are the enemy combatants."

hmmmmm, odd how history plays things out....there are not too many Non Muslims in Medina these days....

45,
Some news just in from one of your favoured non-Sharia countries.
Just routine Muslim Govt forces at work:-

By Saliou Samb

CONAKRY, Nov 26 (Reuters) - Guinean soldiers raped at least 100 women during a crackdown on protesters in September, a human rights group said on Thursday.

The findings were released as United Nations experts began to investigate the repression, in which about 160 people were killed. The crackdown has drawn widespread condemnation and brought sanctions against the ruling military junta.

"We have recorded 100 cases of rape against women committed Sept. 28 and the two days that followed," said Thierno Maadjou Sow, president of the Guinean Organisation of Human Rights, which is working with the U.N. investigators.

"Most were schoolchildren, students, businesswomen, teachers, even journalists."

The organisation had found evidence that 20 victims were taken from a medical clinic to secret locations where they were drugged and raped repeatedly.

Three U.N. experts arrived in the West African nation, the world's top supplier of aluminum ore bauxite, on Wednesday to investigate the crackdown in which security forces used guns, steel pipes and knives on unarmed demonstrators gathered in a Conakry stadium.

Witnesses have said some soldiers violated women using gunbarrels and bayonets.

The demonstrators were protesting against the junta, whose leader Captain Musa Dadis Camara stepped back from a promise to opt out of elections intended to restore civilian rule.

The former soldier came to power in a coup in December following the death of strongman President Lansana Conte, briefly enjoying popularity among Guineans hopeful for a less ruthless regime.

International efforts to stave off new violence in the country have been complicated by reports Camara has hired foreign mercenaries to train a force to secure his place in power.

Sow said the U.N. investigation could be hampered by fear among witnesses of retribution if they cooperate.

"Many of the raped women have already been interviewed but today some of them are so fearful that we wonder how they will react," Sow said.

From: http://www.reuters.com/article/africaCrisis/idUSGEE5AP15M

45/Pubjohn47

Why are you posting your debates here with us all over again at bernardgoldberg.com?

Is it some kind of contest to boost your numbers over there?

Is that why you like to recap a previous post in your reply to it, so you can avoid copying our original comments, and why would that make a difference?

I don't mind my stuff appearing somewhere else but some of us might have appreciated a warning. I don't know the legality but it seems a bit discourteous to me.

I must ask, have you learned anything here? Do you actually read the replies you get or is it all about repeating your own stuff?

jowen - Look at history, one of the main reasons that Muslims did not kill everyone was that since they were not industrious themselves, only warlike, they NEEDED subject populations of Jews and Christians who could pay jizya taxes to support the Muslims and also to actually RUN the communities. If it was not for the accomplishments of the civilizations that they conquered and which Muslims now try to take credit for, Muslims would not have accomplished a single thing in all of history. As they destroyed existing societies over the years those societies fell into greater and greater disrepair and today we see the decrepit result. The Muslims are so pathetic that to this day in Cairo Egypt they were still relying on Christians and their pigs to clean up organic waste in the city!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is freaking insane man!!!!!!! In all these years they couldn't set up a modern waste disposal system, and they were STILL using the infidel Christians in a way that would humiliate the non-Muslims and "build up" the pathetic egos of the ruling Muslims. What a disgusting and utterly pathetic group those Muslims are.

Are you calling ALLAH A LIAR...
The WORDS IN THE AL KORAN...
was SAID TO HAVE WRITTEN BY ALLAH...
and SPOKEN BY HIS PROPHET MUHAMMAD...

45ch: You didn't reply to my post above. Do you agree that those countries I listed should be stricken from your "non-sharia" list? If not, why not?

Also "tiny minority" is crap. There are FAR MORE Muslims murdering, amputating and stoning in the name of Islam that any other group. Look at the support of Genocide in palastine and Iran and the popular support that has, the brutal supremest sharia law practiced in Arab countries such as Saudia Arabia, Iran, Iraq and Egypt and the thousands of attacks since 9/11, I'm sure there are other examples. These allows numbers your "minority" in the hundreds of thousands to millions! Even if "only" 1% of the 1.2 Bil Muslims are violent, that's 12 million!
I don't care how many you might say are muslim that arn't supporting such things, 12 million is a lot of people!

Even that number may be low, because it seems awfully hard to tell who a moderate is. Cases of "misunderstanders" such as the Ft. Hood shooter and other cases proves that!

Of course, if you can provide proof to the contrary feel free.

45ch: "Likewise, only a tiny minority of muslims are influenced by the adverse foreign policies of the US govt and that is why Osama Bin Laden was able to only recruit 19 hijackers on 9/11 but was not able to recruit from the millions of American muslims on 9/11."

Or maybe it was because those muslims prefer the way of political subversion through numbers and demands ("cold" or stealth Jihad) to violence ("hot" jihad).

45ch writes:

"Somalia is a non-sharia state.

The amputations were probably carried out by rebels and not the govt. of somalia"

In Minnesota a while back, over 1,500 Somalian Muslims demonstrated in the streets in favor of the jihad in Somalia that is trying to bring stronger Sharia law to Somalians. We haven't seen any public demonstrations by Somalians against the pro-Sharia jihad in Somalia. Explain that. Oh, and before you do, you better stretch -- you'll need your limbs limber for the yoga pretzels of logic you contort yourself up into trying to whitewash Muslims.

45ch, nice try. 1,500 Somalians vs. ZERO on the other side. That's what matters. The show of that many who take the trouble to demonstrate in public shows a lot. For your point to have credibility, we need to see a larger public demonstration on the other side of the issue by Somalians -- over 1,500 at the very least. So far, we've seen bupkus.

You really are stretching. You'll pull a muscle if you don't watch it.

I am so *tired* of the nonsense that 45ch insists on spouting - especially his obsessive focus on Deuteronomy.

I grew up in the Christian faith. I read *all * of the Bible. I've read any number of commentaries.

'Cities far from you' is generally understood in a relative sense: we're not talking about Rome, Italy or even Nineveh! We're talking about aggressive little desert hill-towns across the border of Canaan, maybe some dozens of miles away at most, run by war-lords aka 'kings'. Read Psalm 83 along with a good map to identify the place-names, in order to get an idea of the scale on which the warfare described in Deuteronomy is taking place. If one reads the historical books of the Old Testament, one soon sees that the farthest afield the Jews ever went was when they were CONQUERED, CAPTURED, ENSLAVED and carted off by others, to Assyria and Babylon.

And my bible had handy little maps in the back showing the territory of Canaan as distributed among the twelve tribes. Nope, it DOESN'T extend all the way to Mesopotamia in the east nor to the Nile in the west. The territory as carefully designated in the books of Joshua and Judges, *does not* include those regions.

Nuthin' there about marching forth from Canaan/ eretz Israel to invade and enslave the Whole World!! Methinks 45ch is projecting onto the Jews the history of ROME - or, most likely, since he's a Mohammedan, ARABIA.

And believe me, I've read ALL the Old Testament prophets, and the historical books, as well as the Pentateuch. The most that is envisaged is that 'the nations' will voluntarily come up to Jerusalem, to Zion, to find out about God.

Historical fact: The Jews were continually attacked by their neighbours - e.g. by the massive superpowers of the day, the Assyrians, the Egyptians, Babylonians, Persians, Hellenes and Romans. They were *attacked*.

Good G-d. 45ch is MAD, stark raving mad.

Look at a good historical atlas of the middle east, mediterranean and asia minor. Look at where Israel, historically, lived; look at the map of its greatest extent, under Solomon. Then compare with the territory covered at their zeniths by - Egypt, Assyria, Babylonia, Persia, Alexander's Empire, Rome, Byzantium, and THEN: look at the Empire of Islam, from Iberia to the East Indies.

Any talk of Jewish imperialism, or of some Empire of the Jews, is insane.

ROFLMAO.

Shoutout to all our Israeli and/or Jewish posters and lurkers, especially - are you there, Shy Guy?

We need a reality check on how rabbinic tradition reads, and has read, the discussions of warfare in Deuteronomy, in order to counter 45ch's nonsensical moral equivalencing of the Torah with the Quran of ha-meshugga.

"Non-Sharia states means that officially, Sharia or religious laws are not the law of the land, "

But I never said anything about being moderate, I said these states do IN FACT practice sharia law, and cited cases of the fact. Instead of proving otherwise or acknowledging the fact, you state a non-sequitor about terms I did not even use.

"Remember, Somalian rebels practicing sharia is not the same as the Somalian govt practicing Sharia."
Perhaps that is true about Somalia. I gave links before (when you were loveverybody) but you didn't respond then.

The president himself of Gambia called for beheadings of homosexuals. (http://www.jihadwatch.org/2008/05/gambian-prez-vows-to-behead-every-homosexual-in-the-country.html)
The goverment also arrested missionaries under the false charge of "sedition" because of their preaching. (http://www.jihadwatch.org/2008/12/british-missionary-couple-in-muslim-african-country-face-months-in-jail-hell-hole-after-being-charge.html)

Turkey government infringing on the religious rights of non-Muslims, as a part of sharia law forbidding the proselytizing or displaying or religious symbols by non-Muslims.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2009/05/turkey-ankaras-general-directorate-for-foundations-appropriates-orthodox-church-properties-for-gamin.html

"And also, every statistics I see about muslim violence versus non-muslim violence, there seems to be a clear pattern pointing to non-muslims being more violent."

Really? I would like to see those statistics. What time period and events are you including? It seems to me I find just the opposite and there have been over 1,400 attacks BY MUSLIMS since 9/11 leaving over 50,000 dead and many more wounded.

45ch said: "because not all sharia laws are bad,"
But what is the division between 'good' Sharia and 'bad' sharia in the Quran? could you point me to the verse in the koran that says a certain portion of the koran may be carried out and others are only suggested?

Are you advocating that some of the Koran is bad and should be removed? If so, how would you suggest that be brought about? How many muslims do you think would accept this, how many would be opposed and how many would turn violent at the suggestion? What do you think would happen if you went to Saudi Arabia and said part of the koran was bad and should be ignored? Do you think you'd leave the country alive?

A country that is non-sharia should be one that pracices NO elements of sharia law. If they practice even one element they should be disqualified from your list.

45ch said: "The couple was arrested on sedition charges and not on charges violating sharia since Sharia is not the state law."
Yes, many times non-muslims are arrested under false pretenses of "treason" because they know what they are doing isn't accepted by most of the world. That doesn't mean thier arrest was a part of intimidation as a part of sharia law that forbids proslotizing of non-muslims. Then again, I can find no other records of problems, so perhaps this is an isloated incident.

45ch said: "Even though present day Idaho is not ruled by the church, there are anti-sodomy laws : All sodomy acts illegal. Penalty = (5 years to life)"

Incorrect. It was repealed by the supreme court in 2003.Please check your facts. Even if this were true, it doesn't make it right. (Thanks for the Tu Quo Que!)

45ch said: "Islam is not the state religion of Gambia so since islam is not the state religion, Sharia is not the law and also, Article 25 of the Constitution protects the rights of citizens to practice any religion that they choose."
Words and deeds are two different things. Gambia is currently has a muslim president, so there's no reason why he couldn't try to implement SOME sharia law.

45ch said: "The Gambian President never did say his proposed law is sharia,"
No, but that doesn't mean it isn't sharia law. It matches Islamic Sharia law, the president of Gambia is a Muslim, therefore 2+2=4.

“Homosexuality is unlawful in Islam. It is neither accepted by the state nor by the Islamic Society. Quran clearly states that it is unjust, un-natural, transgression, ignorant, criminal and corrupt. [...] Muslim Jurist agree that, if proven of guilt, both of them should be killed.” – Jamaat-e-Islami Pakistan.

The hadiths say:
“Kill the one who sodomises and the one who lets it be done to him.” – Tirmidhi.
“Lesbianism by women is adultery between them.” – Tabarani. (Consider that death is the penalty for adultery.)
“If a man who is not married is seized committing sodomy, he will be stoned to death.” – Sunan Abu Dawud, 38:4448.

45ch said: "(serious consequences could mean jail time and not beheadings )"
But he also mentioned cutting off heads, so do you think me foolish enough to beleive this?

Summery: Gambia practices the sharia law of punishment of homosexuality as a official practice and should be removed from your non-sharia list

45ch said: "Here again Sharia is not ruling Turkey since a Turkish court ruled in favor of the Christians"
I didn't see that.

So basicly, I guess for now Gambia should be removed. I'm going to look into the rest of those countries on your list and see what I can find.

I'll look in to the rest later. One comment I'd like to make is that I notice the leaders of murder in that link you give is not any religion but socialists (Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao) and Hitler who though he claimed to be a christian, he reinvisioned Jesus as something he was not, and could not actually find any justification for his beleifs in the teaching of christ. At the very best in terms of groups, Islam is #2 in genocide.

"Sharia-light(tm)"
It's like cigaretes. It's not as bad for you, but still will kill you.
Also the irony of a muslim apolligist making Sharia sound like a beer hasn't escaped me.

Nonie Darwish in her book on sharia,'Cruel and Usual Punishment', states that yes, there are people called Muslims who do not at present follow all the violent prescriptions in Muslim scripture. But she does not see this as any cause for complacency.

"Quite obviously - and I cannot emphasise it enough - the causes of Islamic fanaticism, zealotry, and suicide terrorism are rooted in the Quran...

She observes that although there are many Muslims who do not seem to be following the Quranic commands, nevertheless: "those people either do not understand or totally ignore the horrific threat to the lives of non-Muslims and notorious violation of human rights in their scriptures. The danger to non-Muslims is real, and we do not want to wait until we have civil wars in the West, to realize we have a major problem on our hands".

And she states that, "For a free people, *not fearing* what is in Muslim scriptures and being taught on American soil [in places like the Islamic Saudi Academy in Alexandria, Virginia] would be madness. When the American public is fully informed about Muslim beliefs and scriptures, a healthy level of fear of Islamic sharia is only normal and actually needed for Americans to make prudent decisions".

Nonie Darwish used to be an Egyptian Muslim; now she is a publicly-declared Christian.

Here is the testimony of yet another, also an Egyptian, who has crossed over; who has defected from the Ummah, from the Army of Islam, and joined the Christians.

Magdi Cristiano Allam, after his blazingly-public baptism during the Paschal Liturgy at St Peter's in Rome, Easter 2008, published a letter to his employer, the Corriere della Sera, describing his journey out of Islam. He recounts also the plight of the apostates from Islam who are forced to live in hiding even within Italy, because of the threat of vigilante violence from their former co-religionists, due to the Law of Apostasy in Islam.

I shall quote it at some length, in the Italian and in a running translation, for it is beautiful, moving, and lucid.

Ti scrivo pertanto da protagonista della vicenda come privato cittadino. Ieri sera mi sono convertito alla religione cristiana cattolica, rinunciando alla mia precedente fede islamica.
-I write to you throughout as the protagonist of a story, as a private citizen.

Yesterday evening I converted to the Catholic Christian religion, renouncing my previous Islamic faith.

Ha così finalmente visto la luce, per grazia divina, il frutto sano e maturo di una lunga gestazione vissuta nella sofferenza e nella gioia, tra la profonda e intima riflessione e la consapevole e manifesta esternazione.

-Having thus finally, by divine grace, seen the light, the healthy and mature fruit of a long gestation lived in suffering and in joy, between deep and intimate reflection and informed and manifest revelation.

Sono particolarmente grato a Sua Santità il Papa Benedetto XVI che mi ha impartito i sacramenti dell’iniziazione cristiana, Battesimo, Cresima ed Eucarestia, nella Basilica di San Pietro nel corso della solenne celebrazione della Veglia Pasquale. E ho assunto il nome cristiano più semplice ed esplicito: «Cristiano».
-I am particularly thankful to His Holiness Pope Benedict 16th, that he imparted to me the sacraments of Christian initiation, Baptism, Chrism and Eucharist, in the Basilica of St Peter, in the course of the solemn celebration of the Easter Vigil. And I have taken the simplest and most obvious Christian name: “Cristiano” [i.e. ‘Christian’].

Da ieri dunque mi chiamo «Magdi Cristiano Allam».
-From yesterday onward my name is ‘Magdi Cristiano Allam’.

'Per me è il giorno più bello della vita. Acquisire il dono della fede cristiana nella ricorrenza della Risurrezione di Cristo per mano del Santo Padre è, per un credente, un privilegio ineguagliabile e un bene inestimabile.

-For me it was the most beautiful day of my life. To acquire the gift of the Christian faith on the anniversary of the Resurrection of Christ, at the hands of the Holy Father, is for a believer a privilege without equal, and a good beyond measuring.

'A quasi 56 anni, nel mio piccolo, è un fatto storico, eccezionale e indimenticabile, che segna una svolta radicale e definitiva rispetto al passato.

'Il miracolo della Risurrezione di Cristo si è riverberato sulla mia anima liberandola dalle tenebre di una predicazione dove l’odio e l’intolleranza nei confronti del «diverso», condannato acriticamente quale «nemico», primeggiano sull’amore e il rispetto del «prossimo » che è sempre e comunque «persona»; così come la mia mente si è affrancata dall’oscurantismo di un’ideologia che legittima la menzogna e la dissimulazione, la morte violenta che induce all’omicidio e al suicidio, la cieca sottomissione e la tirannia, permettendomi di aderire all’autentica religione della Verità, della Vita e della Libertà. Nella mia prima Pasqua da cristiano io non ho scoperto solo Gesù, ho scoperto per la prima volta il vero e unico Dio, che è il Dio della Fede e Ragione.

-At almost 56 years, in my infancy, it [my baptism] is a historical fact, exceptional and unforgettable, that denotes a radical and final turnaround as regards the past.

The miracle of Christ’s Resurrection has re-echoed through my soul,

freeing it from the shadows of a preaching where hatred and intolerance in one’s relations with ‘the Other’, who is uncritically condemned as ‘Enemy’, override love and respect for one’s ‘neighbour’ who is – nevertheless - always “Person”,

just as my spirit has been freed from the obscurantism of an ideology that legitimates lying and deception, the violent death that comes to the murderer and the suicide, blind submission and tyranny,

allowing me to join the authentic religion of Truth, Life and Freedom.

In my first Easter as a Christian I have not only found Jesus, I have found for the first time the true and only God, who is the God both of Faith and Reason. "...

Here are more telling portions of Magdi Cristiano Allam's testimony - which I think that foolish minister in that church in Nashville would do well to read, slowly and attentively.

'Il punto d’approdo. 
La mia conversione al cattolicesimo è il punto d’approdo di una graduale e profonda meditazione interiore a cui non avrei potuto sottrarmi, visto che da cinque anni sono costretto a una vita blindata, con la vigilanza fissa a casa e la scorta dei carabinieri a ogni mio spostamento, a causa delle minacce e delle condanne a morte inflittemi dagli estremisti e dai terroristi islamici, sia quelli residenti in Italia sia quelli attivi all’estero.

-Journey’s end.
My conversion to Catholicism is the journey’s end of a gradual and profound interior meditation from which I have not been able to detach myself,

given that for five years I have been constrained to a guarded life, with fixed watchfulness at home and an escort of policemen at all my appointments,

*because of the threats and condemnations to death [death fatwas] inflicted on me by Muslim extremists and terrorists, both those living in Italy and those active beyond her borders.* {my emphasis - dda}

'Ho dovuto interrogarmi sull’atteggiamento di coloro che hanno pubblicamente emesso delle fatwe, dei responsi giuridici islamici, denunciandomi, io che ero musulmano, come «nemico dell’islam», «ipocrita perché è un cristiano copto che finge di essere musulmano per danneggiare l’islam», «bugiardo e diffamatore dell’islam », legittimando in tal modo la mia condanna a morte.

- I had to ask myself about the attitude of those who had publicly proclaimed fatwas, Muslim judicial decisions, denouncing me, I who was a Muslim, as ‘Enemy of Islam’, ‘Hypocrite, because he is a Coptic Christian who pretends to be a Muslim in order to damage Islam’, ‘liar and defamor of Islam’, in this manner legitimizing my being condemned to death.

'Mi sono chiesto come fosse possibile che chi, come me, si è battuto convintamente e strenuamente per un «islam moderato », assumendosi la responsabilità di esporsi in prima persona nella denuncia dell’estremismo e del terrorismo islamico, sia finito poi per essere condannato a morte nel nome dell’islam e sulla base di una legittimazione coranica.

-I asked myself how it was possible that someone like me, who had fought convincingly and strenuously for a ‘Moderate Islam’, taking on myself the responsibility of demonstrating it in my own person, by denouncing Muslim extremism and terrorism, should end up being condemned to death in the name of Islam and on Quranic grounds.

'Ho così dovuto prendere atto che, al di là della contingenza che registra il sopravvento del fenomeno degli estremisti e del terrorismo islamico a livello mondiale, la radice del male è insita in un islam che è fisiologicamente violento e storicamente conflittuale.

-So I had to take…the phenomenon of Muslim extremists and terrorism at a global level, the root of the evil is located in an Islam that is physiologically [psychologically? – physically?] violent and historically full of conflict. "

Finally, Magdi Cristiano Allam speaks of the danger faced by the apostate from Islam, and why it was that he chose to do what he did.

"La scelta e le minacce 
- Choice and Threats

Caro Direttore, mi hai chiesto se io non tema per la mia vita, nella consapevolezza che la conversione al cristianesimo mi procurerà certamente un’ennesima, e ben più grave, condanna a morte per apostasia.
-Dear Editor, you asked me whether I am not afraid for my life, being aware that conversion to Christianity will surely gain me enmity, and even worse, a sentence of death for apostasy.

'Hai perfettamente ragione. So a cosa vado incontro ma affronterò la mia sorte a testa alta, con la schiena dritta e con la solidità interiore di chi ha la certezza della propria fede.
-You are perfectly correct. I know what I am getting into but I meet my fate with head held high, with a straight back and with an interior conviction that I have the certainty of the true faith.

'E lo sarò ancor di più dopo il gesto storico e coraggioso del Papa che, sin dal primo istante in cui è venuto a conoscenza del mio desiderio, ha subito accettato di impartirmi di persona i sacramenti d’iniziazione al cristianesimo.
-And more than that will be the historic and brave gesture of the Pope who, from the first instant in which he became aware of my desire, at once agreed to give to me in person the sacraments of Christian initiation.

'Sua Santità ha lanciato un messaggio esplicito e rivoluzionario a una Chiesa che finora è stata fin troppo prudente nella conversione dei musulmani, astenendosi dal fare proselitismo nei Paesi a maggioranza islamica e tacendo sulla realtà dei convertiti nei Paesi cristiani.
-His Holiness has delivered an explicit and revolutionary message to a church which, up until now, has been much too careful in the conversion of Muslims, refraining from mission in majority-Muslim countries, and keeping quiet about the reality for Muslim-background converts in Christian countries.

'Per paura. La paura di non poter tutelare i convertiti di fronte alla loro condanna a morte per apostasia e la paura delle rappresaglie nei confronti dei cristiani residenti nei Paesi islamici. Ebbene oggi Benedetto XVI, con la sua testimonianza, ci dice che bisogna vincere la paura e non avere alcun timore nell’affermare la verità di Gesù anche con i musulmani.
- Out of fear. Out of fear of not being able to protect the converts in the face of their condemnation to death for apostasy, and fear of reprisals against those Christians who live in Muslim countries. But today we have Benedict 16, with his testimony, which says that it is possible to overcome fear and to have no fear of affirming the truth of Jesus even among Muslim people.

'Basta con la violenza 
- Enough with Violence!
'Dal canto mio dico che è ora di porre fine all’arbitrio e alla violenza dei musulmani che non rispettano la libertà di scelta religiosa.

-Of my [?] I say that it is now possible to make an end with the will and the violence of the Muslims who do not respect the freedom of religious choice .

-In Italia ci sono migliaia di convertiti all’islam che vivono serenamente la loro nuova fede.

Ma ci sono anche migliaia di musulmani convertiti al cristianesimo che sono costretti a celare la loro nuova fede per paura di essere assassinati dagli estremisti islamici che si annidano tra noi.

Per uno di quei «casi» che evocano la mano discreta del Signore, il mio primo articolo scritto sul Corriere il 3 settembre 2003 si intitolava «Le nuove catacombe degli islamici convertiti».

- In Italy there are about a thousand converts to Islam who live out their faith undisturbed.

*But there are also a thousand Muslims converted to Christianity who are compelled to conceal their new faith out of fear of being assassinated by Muslim extremists who hide themselves among us* {my emphasis - dda}.

Concerning one of these ‘accidents’ that evoke the subtle hand of the Lord, my first article, written in the Courier on 3 September 2003, was called “The New Catacombs of the Muslim-background Believers”.

'Era un’inchiesta su alcuni neo-cristiani che in Italia denunciavano la loro profonda solitudine spirituale ed umana, di fronte alla latitanza delle istituzioni dello Stato che non tutelano la loro sicurezza e al silenzio della stessa Chiesa.

- It was an inquiry concerning some ‘new christians’ who, in Italy, complained of their deep spiritual and human loneliness, over against the laxity of the State which did not care about their safety, and the silence of the Church itself.

'Ebbene mi auguro che dal gesto storico del Papa e dalla mia testimonianza traggano il convincimento che è arrivato il momento di uscire dalle tenebre dalle catacombe e di affermare pubblicamente la loro volontà di essere pienamente se stessi. Se non saremo in grado qui in Italia, nella culla del cattolicesimo, a casa nostra, di garantire a tutti la piena libertà religiosa, come potremmo mai essere credibili quando denunciamo la violazione di tale libertà altrove nel mondo? Prego Dio affinché questa Pasqua speciale doni la risurrezione dello spirito a tutti i fedeli in Cristo che sono stati finora soggiogati dalla paura.
- So I take hope that from the historical gesture of the Pope, and from my testimony, they will draw the conviction that the moment has arrived to come out from the shadows of the catacombs and publicly affirm their will to fully be what they are.

If , here in Italy, in the cradle of Cathoicism, in our own house, we are not able to guarantee to every person complete religious liberty, how can we be believed when we denounce the violation of that freedom elsewhere in the world?

I pray to God that this special Easter he may give a spiritual resurrection to all who believe in Christ, who up until now have been subjugated by fear."
Magdi Allam
 23 marzo 2008

Magdi Cristiano Allam, like Nonie Darwish, knows what kind of system he once lived inside, what it felt like, what it was; and he also knows that his life, now that he has affirmed this different faith that he has found, is *different*.

When he says apostates are in danger, I believe him; when he says Islam is violent, in a way that Christianity is not, and irrational, in a way that Christianity is not, I believe him.

He knows.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2008/03/magdi-allam-over-the-years-my-spirit-has-been-freed-from-the-obscurantism-of-an-ideology-that-legiti.html

Perhaps at the next interfaith snake-oil 'let's all pretend Islam isn't dangerous' meeting in Nashville, Tennessee, or in other places where similar nonsense takes place, someone could bring along a print-out of Magdi's testimony, and hand some copies around amongst the audience.

DDA: That is good advice, I think I've had enough with 45chs repeated arguments.

45ch:
Your not presenting any new evidence, just repeating the same things you've said before. I have no time to answer echos.

Stalin was perticularly anti-religion regardless of his upbringing. If you beleive Stalin was christians when he did those terrible things, then you flunked history. Why would he persecute religions if he was christian? That makes no sense. (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians_in_the_Soviet_Union)

If Hitler was a Christian, he was a heretic. As I said before what he did could not be found in ANY justification of what Christ taught. You cannot refute this so yuou just echo what you said before. They say "the proof in the pudding is in the eating" , and I think any unbiased person looked at world-wide the followers of any religion, including those who follow Jesus against those who follow islam/mohammad you see a stark contrast. In Islam we see the subjegation of unbeleivers, riots at "insult" or critisism of Islam or mohammad, murder and terror, and in no small numbers. And these are all supported by the quran and STILL FOLLOWED by many. There has been no major turn from accepting these violent verses in any serious way. You can't seriously find any sort of equal match in any religion. Comunism and nazism caused some of the worst atrrocities in history. Now it comes to #3 on that list, Islam, an evil ideology and should be stopped.

I say Gambia's law against homosexuality and perscribed punishment by the president was inspired by sharia law, because the president wasn't christian or hindu or Jewish. He was MUSLIM. Again, your argument is like arguing against the fact that 2 and 2 make 4.

DDA: That is good advice, I think I've had enough with 45chs repeated arguments.

45ch:
Your not presenting any new evidence, just repeating the same things you've said before. I have no time to answer echos.

Stalin was perticularly anti-religion regardless of his upbringing. If you beleive Stalin was christians when he did those terrible things, then you flunked history. Why would he persecute religions if he was christian? That makes no sense. (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians_in_the_Soviet_Union)

If Hitler was a Christian, he was a heretic. As I said before what he did could not be found in ANY justification of what Christ taught. You cannot refute this so yuou just echo what you said before. They say "the proof in the pudding is in the eating" , and I think any unbiased person looked at world-wide the followers of any religion, including those who follow Jesus against those who follow islam/mohammad you see a stark contrast. In Islam we see the subjegation of unbeleivers, riots at "insult" or critisism of Islam or mohammad, murder and terror, and in no small numbers. And these are all supported by the quran and STILL FOLLOWED by many. There has been no major turn from accepting these violent verses in any serious way. You can't seriously find any sort of equal match in any religion. Comunism and nazism caused some of the worst atrrocities in history. Now it comes to #3 on that list, Islam, an evil ideology and should be stopped.

I say Gambia's law against homosexuality and perscribed punishment by the president was inspired by sharia law, because the president wasn't christian or hindu or Jewish. He was MUSLIM. Again, your argument is like arguing against the fact that 2 and 2 make 4.

DDA: That is good advice, I think I've had enough with 45chs repeated arguments.

45ch:
Your not presenting any new evidence, just repeating the same things you've said before. I have no time to answer echos.

Stalin was particularly anti-religion regardless of his upbringing. If you beleive Stalin was Christians when he did those terrible things, then you flunked history. Why would he persecute religions if he was christian? That makes no sense. (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians_in_the_Soviet_Union)

If Hitler was a Christian, he was a heretic. As I said before what he did COULD NOT be found in ANY justification of what Christ taught. You cannot refute this so yuou just echo what you said before. They say "the proof in the pudding is in the eating" , and I think any unbiased person looked at world-wide the followers of any religion, including those who follow Jesus against those who follow islam/mohammad you see a stark contrast. In Islam we see the subjegation of unbeleivers, riots at "insult" or critisism of Islam or mohammad, murder and terror, and in no small numbers. And these are all supported by the quran and STILL FOLLOWED by many. There has been no major turn from accepting these violent verses in any serious way. You can't seriously find any sort of equal match in any religion. communism and nazism caused some of the worst atrocities in history. Now it comes to #3 on that list, Islam, an evil ideology and should be stopped.

I say Gambia's law against homosexuality and perscribed punishment by the president was inspired by sharia law, because the president wasn't christian or hindu or Jewish. He was MUSLIM. Again, your argument is like arguing against the fact that 2 and 2 make 4.

I hope people can see that the troll 45ch cannot actually answer my main argument, and so just echos. I have made the assertion that those who he calls "Christians" had no basis to do evil in the life of Jesus, but in Islam muslims do, in the very words of Mohammad. He hasn't so far refuted this claim, but instead dives off the path with "it's beside the point".

His so-called christians behind the inquisition, Nazis and communist russia had NOTHING to cite to justify what they did in the words of Christ.

And besides, Christians persecuting other Christians for being Christian in ANTI-RELIGION COMMUNIST Russia is nonsense. 45ch can try to paint communist russia or nazi germany as being "christian countries" but again, fails to present proof they were correctly following their faith, or had any citiations from the life of Jesus to back up what they did.

To answer 45ch's questions:
yes (but not with any basis in Christianity),
Yes (Otherwise their not really following that idelogy they no longer beleive, are they?)
Yes (Mostly atheist Communism)
Not sure
No (2+2=4, but 2 is not 4. There was no basis in sharia law that I know of in that law, and just because it is similar does not make it the same.)

"So it will be very hard to believe that only communists who never went to church were the only murderers in the Soviet Union since the communists were the minority in the Soviet Union."

So you're telling me that communists were a minority in what was called COMMUNIST Russia? I think we're done here.
In Soviet Russia the lies tell you! (Sorry, couldn't resist)

Anyone who takes an honest look can see a stark difference between the OLD testament, which is hardly followed by Christians or Jews and the quran which took place 700 years after Jesus taught "love thy neighbor". I invite people to read the quran and the new testament and see the difference and remember that it was the quran that came AFTER the new testament, not before.

"So you think a religious American christian politician would not want to see laws passed that were according to his christian faith ?"
Of course, but could you please quote a religious politician who is well respected calling for the beheading of homosexuals?

45ch: "Your point is that christians have never killed ?"
No, I never said that.

Your statistics on russia lie. Not because they are untrue, but because they do not match the time frame we were discussing. I'm done.

If 45ch wants to claim that the 'Christians' were responsible for what happened in the Soviet Union between 1917 and 1989 he's being wilfully obtuse.

To truly understand what it was like to be a Christian in the Soviet bloc under the Communists he can start with Solzhenitsyn, who in 'The Gulag Archipelago' describes the many Christians (ordinary people, even little old ladies, priests too) whom he met in the prison camps, "a silent procession carrying invisible candles", who were continually ridiculed, beaten and attacked by the Communists. Hundreds of priests were executed out of hand during the early Bolshevik years, and others were sent into exile in the gulags.

Here is the judicious church historian, Stephen Neill, in his 'History of Christian Mission':
"The church in Russia had been associated with the tsarist regime. Karl Marx taught his followers that religion is the opiate of the people. From 1918 the Russian Orthodox Church suffered bitterly from indiscriminate persecution meted out to everything that belonged to the past. One estimate is that in the early years of the Bolshevik regime 27 bishops and 1290 priests were done to death (some Western estimates were far higher).

'Christian faith was the object of a continuous barrage of attack from the anti-God movement; religion was held up to ridicule as outworn and unscientific; the practising Christian fell under the odium of political unreliability. [One should note that this all took place in the schools, from Kindergarten through to University; an unrelenting brainwashing campaign - dda]. There is little doubt that the more convinced communists expected religion to disappear within a generation.

"That the churches survived at all under such a hostile regime - especially that of Stalin in the late 1920s and 1930s - is evidence of their toughness. That they managed in a measure even to flourish, is a miracle."

[Even so: the percentage of the Russian population at least nominally identified as Christian dropped catastrophically from around 85 % in 1917 to perhaps 45% by 1970 - source, Patrick Johnstone, Operation World].

Neill notes that the persecution let up a bit during World War II for considerations of morale; but that the churches had only 'a limited freedom, and liable to sudden acts of tyranny'. - History of Christian Missions, pp. 474-75. Sergei Kourdakov's 'Forgive Me Natasha' describes ferocious persecution - raiding, beating, killing, imprisonment - of Christian churches in Kamchatka during the Khruschev years; Kourdakov testifies as a former persecutor; part of a gang of violent people taught to raid Christian prayer meetings and viciously beat people up; he converted after reading part of a confiscated Bible, and defected to the West, but he was killed under mysterious circumstances not long after writing his testimony.

45ch should find, and read, also, 'Tortured for Christ' by Richard Wurmbrand; and he can look up the poet Irina Ratushinskaya, and 'Keston College' and 'Licht Im Osten'.

The fact that the communists infiltrated and manipulated churches does not mean that Christians as such *agreed* with the Soviet Communists or - which 45ch seems to think, that the Christians *controlled* what the Communists did! This is to argue that the puppets controlled the puppeteers.

In China today where there are two bodies identified as 'christian': 1. the so-called 'Three-Self' registered churches (who contain some sincere Christians, but also many infiltrators or puppets) and 2. the 'unregistered' or house churches, both Catholic and Protestant, who are often severely persecuted. In the case of the Three-Self Churches: who controls who? The church the state or the state the church? 45ch would presumably suppose that the 'christians' of the Registered churches are to blame for what the Chinese state does.

I notice 45ch in his eagerness to blame Christians and Christianity for all the evils of the world, ignores the fact that Communist *China* accounts for a significant proportion of the twentieth century's human body count; and although Chinese Communists employed the same tactics against the church in China as the Russian Communists did against the church in Russia (infiltrate, deceive, control; but also at the same time harass, imprison, torture, KILL those who were too smart and brave to be tricked or threatened into collaborating), no-one can possibly claim that the Christians in China - even those fake Christians or frightened, nominal Christians collaborating with the regime - were the sole and sufficient cause of the mass deaths during Mao's reign, for even today the Christian church comprises no more than 5 or 6 % of the population, and its percentage was far, far smaller than that, in 1950.

As for the Third Reich: what happened to Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Maximilien Kolbe and the ten Boom family show what the Nazis thought of Christians who refused to toe the Nazi line. When they had finished with the Jews the Nazis fully intended to dispose of the Christians - see Shirer's monumental work, 'The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich', for a discussion of Hitler's anti-biblical occultism. One wonders whether Hitler had been inspired by the Arab Muslim slogan - 'first the Saturday people, then the Sunday people', for he was surely intending something similar.

Corrie Ten Boom's 'The Hiding Place' includes her accounts of conversations with Nazis who were ferociously and consciously anti-Christian, ferociously hostile to the Biblical God and the Biblical ethic.

Thank you Dumbledoresarmy, I had thrown up my hands at him, and was intending on ignoring him, but it is good that you present such a strong case for why 45ch is a liar (He seems too educated to be simply historically ignorant) so those who come here will not be deceived by his historical revisionism.

I had thought I had read "rise and fall of third Reich." but when I saw it on the shelf at my library, I don't remember it being so big, so maybe I only read some of it. It's one of the books I'm interested in reading. I loved the hiding place movie, and I had a really good comic book based on the book.

Looking for info on it, I stumbled on a place where you can actually read it (and other spire comics, though frankly, not all are that great) online here: http://www.carpsplace.com/spire/spire.htm

My favorites that I've read are Paul, Cross and the Switchblade and God's Smuggler