Disaster flick filmmaker decides to destroy Christ statue rather than Mecca in new film, for fear of drawing death threats

“We have to all, in the western world, think about this. You can actually let Christian symbols fall apart, but if you would do this with [an] Arab symbol, you would have … a fatwa, and that sounds a little bit like what the state of this world is.”

“Arab” is not the point. “Muslim” is. Emmerich knows innocent people could be killed because of this, and rather than stand up and call for sanity from Muslims and law enforcement from non-Muslims, he takes the dhimmi way out, destroying a Christian symbol instead. For while he would almost certainly avow moral equivalence if asked, he really knows better. As do many others.

And by the way, a “fatwa” is not a death sentence. It’s just a ruling on a religious question. The most famous fatwa called for Salman Rushdie’s death, and that’s where the popular usage comes from.

“Emmerich reveals fear of fatwa axed 2012 scene,” by Ben Child in the Guardian, November 3 (thanks to all who sent this in):

He blew up the Empire State Building and the White House in Independence Day, sent a giant monster careering through the heart of Manhattan in Godzilla and destroyed the famous Hollywood sign in The Day After Tomorrow. But it seems there are places even Roland Emmerich will not go – the German film-maker has revealed he abandoned plans to obliterate Islam’s holiest site on the big screen for fear of attracting a fatwa.

For his latest disaster movie, 2012, the 53-year-old director had wanted to demolish the Kaaba, the iconic cube-shaped structure in the Grand Mosque in Mecca that Muslims the world over turn towards every day when they pray and which they circle seven times during the hajj pilgrimage….

“I wanted to do that, I have to admit,” Emmerich told scifiwire.com. “But my co-writer Harald [Kloser] said I will not have a fatwa on my head because of a movie. And he was right.

“We have to all, in the western world, think about this. You can actually let Christian symbols fall apart, but if you would do this with [an] Arab symbol, you would have … a fatwa, and that sounds a little bit like what the state of this world is.

“So it’s just something which I kind of didn’t [think] was [an] important element, anyway, in the film, so I kind of left it out.”

But Emmerich acolytes need not fear that the film-maker is pulling his punches on 2012, which arrives in UK cinemas on 13 November. The movie depicts a global doomsday event supposedly predicted by the Mayans more than a thousand years ago – in order to highlight his opposition to organised religion, the director decided to use CGI to destroy the Christ the Redeemer statue in Rio de Janeiro instead. For good measure, he also blew up the Sistine chapel and St Peter’s Basilica in the Vatican, plus, on a secular note, the White House (again).

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Comments

  1. says

    And so the subservience continues because Muslims can’t control themselves when anything even remotely critical of, or contrary to, the mighty, all-truthful, non-erring faith they believe in occurs. This is not indicative of enlightenment of any kind. Rather it is demonstrative of how child-like and transparently defensive so many Muslims are. Islam is the religion for adults who really want to be allowed to throw child-like temper tantrums with regularity. Pathetic, as is the cravenness of so many in the West who let Islam continue to chip away at liberty.

  2. says

    “Arab” is not the point. “Muslim” is.
    EXACTLY.

    You won’t get death threats for depicting Aladdin.
    And not all Arabs are Muslim.

    As a Christian I don’t bat an eyelash at the statue of Jesus being fictitiously blown up, it is just a statue.
    And it is just a movie.
    I don’t believe in a God who is threatened by something so
    insignificant. I don’t suppose Christian Arabs will be outraged to violent demonstrations about it either.

  3. says

    Hollywood has been anti-Christian and anti western male for decades. All Emmerich is doing is keeping the hate alive.

    The good news is that Emmerich is just a purveyor of schlock movies(and low grade ones at that) that mostly appeal to idiots who watch American Idol.

  4. says

    That story is pretty much a microcosm of the vast majority of secularists/atheists’ approach to Islam in Europe. They display their false bravado against “organized religion” by attacking Christianity–the religion they know won’t hurt them—and then they’ll be meek as churchmice when confronting Islam.

  5. says

    If it were up to me, I’d institute a fatwa against Emmerich directing any more crappy movies; his list is long, and unfulfilling.

    Also, regarding his opposition to “organized religion” (that old canard again), let’s recall from Cameron Crowe’s film ‘Singles’ (centered around the romantic exploits of grunge-era Seattle) the timeless wisdom of the exchange between Kyra Sedgewick and Campbell Scott upon first meeting one another at a local bar:

    KS: It’s just an act.

    CS: It’s not an act.

    KS: I think that ‘not having an act’ IS your act.

    Or, in layman’s terms (sorry!), grow up.

  6. says

    Let all Christians refuse to see this movie. They outnumber Muslims by at least four to one. Hit Hollywood where it hurts – in the wallet.
    Can you spell b-o-y-c-o-t-t?

  7. says

    If it were up to me, I’d institute a fatwa against Emmerich directing any more crappy large-scale movies; his list is long, unfulfilling, and threatens to keep pace with Michael Bay as the worst Hollywood hackmeister EVER.

    Also, regarding his opposition to “organized religion” (THAT old canard again), let’s recall from Cameron Crowe’s film ‘Singles’ (centered around the romantic exploits of grunge-era Seattle) the timeless wisdom of the exchange between Kyra Sedgewick and Campbell Scott upon first meeting one another at a local bar:

    KS: It’s just an act.

    CS: It’s not an act.

    KS: I think that ‘not having an act’ IS your act.

    Or, in layman’s terms (sorry!), grow up.

  8. says

    A couple of thoughts on this from a Muslim viewpoint.

    1.) On the Day of Judgment, the Kaaba is going to be destroyed anyway. If anything, this depiction fits in nicely with our belief that the whole of the earth will be wrought asunder.

    2.) Almost certainly, someone out there in fanaticworld would get bent out of shape over this depiction. I can’t personally think of any hadith or ayat that would support such fervor but really these guys don’t need any justification.

    Deep down inside, I think some of the Christians here are a bit envious of this. Every day, that which is sacred to you is being desecrated in the media. Larry David just the other day urinated (or at least, acted as such) on an icon of Jesus and then had a sad goy woman kneel down and pray before it. You’re powerless to do anything about it. You’ve completely given up that which is sacred to you in favor of this. Admit it, in some ways you envy our resolute stand against blasphemy. ๐Ÿ˜‰

  9. says

    From post above…Admit it, in some ways you envy our resolute stand against blasphemy. ๐Ÿ˜‰

    Not me, I think it’s sick…Your resolute stand against blasphemy usually involves depravity…

  10. says

    Coward. Total and complete Coward.

    And “GerbilTea” – NO ONE “envies” you your brainwashed zombie-ism to a psychopath mass-murdering Warlord/non-existent mass-murdering pagan moon god, “allah.”

    NO ONE. That you would even entertain that thought shows how sick you are. Sick, sick, sick. You belong in a mental hospital, along with your Con Man Warlord and genocidal moon deity, an Arabian pagan moon idol that doesn’t exist.

    IDOL-WORSHIPPER, “GerbilTea.” Pity you, you pathetic sub-human. YOU are the “Blasphemer.” YOU! IDIOT!

  11. says

    GT :A couple of thoughts on this from a Muslim viewpoint.

    Yawn…..

    GT : 1.) On the Day of Judgment, the Kaaba is going to be destroyed anyway. If anything, this depiction fits in nicely with our belief that the whole of the earth will be wrought asunder.

    On what scientific evidence do you base your ‘Day of Judgment’ prediction? Please don’t say ‘the quran”, it’s merely a very poor work of fiction. Cite something factual.

    GT : 2.) Almost certainly, someone out there in fanaticworld would get bent out of shape over this depiction. I can’t personally think of any hadith or ayat that would support such fervor but really these guys don’t need any justification.

    And certainly a moslem, but I’m sure other moslems will then use the ‘No True Scotsman’ argument, right?

    Deep down inside, I think some of the Christians here are a bit envious of this. [SNIP]

    I can’t speak for the christians here but as an Atheist I can tell you I have more respect for a religion that accepts criticism, humor and continues on than one that throws a tantrum at the slightest provocation.

    GT : Admit it, in some ways you envy our resolute stand against blasphemy. ๐Ÿ˜‰

    In no way do I envy any stand against a victimless crime. It’s childish and if you can’t see why, then you must be fasting too much or praying with a little too much enthusiasm.

  12. says

    GerbilTea and all the active atheists out there: You are a bunch of ignorants about Who is really using you when you pick Christ to make a mock of.There is only One behind you and He has a name and a number.You all belong to Him.You are dead already.

    We christians know this very well, and there is not much we can do to free you.

    He is only interested in attacking wherever the Truth is in this world, not in fake things like islam, which are already his

  13. says

    GerbilTea and all the active atheists out there: You are a bunch of ignorants about Who is really using you when you pick Christ to make a mock of.There is only One behind you and He has a name and a number.You all belong to Him.You are dead already.

    We christians know this very well, and there is not much we can do to free you.

    He is only interested in attacking wherever the Truth is in this world, not in fake things like islam, which are already his

  14. says

    “Please don’t say “the qur’an”, it’s merely a very poor work of fiction.” — Question_Everything

    So exactly.

    You have to pity a billion polygamous over-breeding child-brides’ people that (and I do mean “that”) worship a 7th century AD Warlord. Except they are mass-murderers – so, no, we can’t pity them, we have to STOP them. The homicidal maniacs of the early 21st century – Muslims.

  15. says

    Great. Leave out the one aspect representing the real reason for 2012.

    God commands us to Minister to the needy of Spirit while doing so without judgment. With no authority to command others to comply. Unlike another Religion we know.

  16. says

    So it’s OK to blow up statues of the Buddha for real, but not OK to destroy the Kaaba in a CGI fantasy.

    Yeah, that sure makes a lot of sense.

  17. says

    GT : Just because it (Christianity) had the good fortune of being the religion of the West does not mean it was never in opposition to modernization.

    Good fortune? How so? Religion is a personal choice, not something that can be forced on a person no matter how difficult the rejection of the belief system may be.

    It surely was in opposition down through the ages (just read a book like The Agony and the Ecstasy to see how far some people will go to have the will of god done)but it still evolved and I can comfortably spend time with even the most zealous (that I’ve found so far) christian/jew/buddhist/hindu and be cordial. Not so with moslems.

    By my conservative estimate you’re a few thousand years behind christianity.

  18. says

    “Support for Muslims who seek genuine reform or at least acceptance that Muslims can be civil and law abiding citizens in the West is realistic.” — GT, Mohammedan who whacks his head 5 times a day to a non-existent moon god

    Question: Why can’t you stay in your own countries?

    Also, you don’t know “God.” You worship a basalt pagan idol with a crescent moon carved on it’s chest, that archaeologists frequently find in the Arabian deserts. You don’t know “God.”

    Again, why can’t you stay in your own countries? What’s the problem? They’re not good enough for you? Oh, wait’ll I tell “allah” (that doesn’t exist).

  19. says

    GT : {reforming islam}…but I don’t think it is impossible and it is almost certainly the only realistic outcome.

    It’s about as realistic as me getting a pony for xmas. If the stated goals of islam is to be the only religion then all moslems are doing is either biding their time or aggressively pursuing the goal. That may sound harsh but I don’t view the world through islamic tinted glasses, just based on the actions I see.

    GT : So many people on this site seem to believe it feasible to ban Islam, ban the Qur’an, deport all the Muslims etc…

    For good reason. How would you treat an infection?

    GT : It’s not as if you’re harming God with your comments.

    Have you any idea how hard it is to harm an imaginary friend?

    GT, all it takes is to look at your cult with a rational eye for five minutes. I know it must be tough to throw away all those years of delusion but you’ll be a better person for it.

  20. says

    No, you’re absurd.

    Christianity follows directly from Judaism. Christ is the Son of God.

    You don’t understand the Trinity – that’s your problem. I wouldn’t expect a pagan to understand anything divine.

    You are the idol-worshipper. “allah” is the pagan Arabian moon god, as everyone knows, the god that pagan Mohamet grew up worshipping. “allah” has nothing whatsoever to do with God. You don’t know God, Jesus! You’re an idol-worshipper. You whack your zebibah 5 times a day to a basalt idol! You can thank your Con Man Warlord for that deception.

    You are misguided, you are absurd, and when it comes your time to pass, you will learn the truth, and feel like an idiot. Which you are. You should look to your betters – Walid Shoebat, Ali Sina, Hirsi Ali, Nonie Darwish, Wafa Sultan, and others. They have the intelligence to dismiss Islam for the joke that it is – you don’t. You’re ignorant as all-get-out.

    And, say, why aren’t you living in an Islamic country? NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR YOU? lol

  21. says

    “Good fortune for being the religion of the West at its zenith.”

    Oh, I always love this one from the atheists and Muslims—they completely dismiss the idea that the West flourished BECAUSE of the worldview Christianity provided. Nope, Christianity was either coincidental to the success of the West, or actually an impediment to even greater success. And CERTAINLY Islam and/or atheism could foster a similarly successful civilization if only those mean Christians would give them a chance. Well, I guess those fantasies are a lot more comforting than the historical reality—-namely that the results of a modern, atheistic society can be seen most fully in the history of the Soviet Union and the People’s Republic of China. And as for the Islamic civilization, well, the fact that millions of Muslims are doing everything they can to get out and go live in the Christian West should tell you everything you need to know.

  22. says

    GerbilTea and all the active atheists out there: You are a bunch of ignorants about Who is really using you when you pick Christ to make a mock of.There is only One behind you and He has a name and a number.You all belong to Him.You are dead already.

    We christians know this very well, and there is not much we can do to free you.

    He is only interested in attacking wherever the Truth is in this world, not in fake things like islam, which are already his

  23. says

    Roland Emmerich … revealed he abandoned plans to obliterate Islam’s holiest site on the big screen for fear of attracting a fatwa.

    This is one smart Infidel. Knows about the 6th Pillar of Islam. He knows how it works, and can just feel it out there, lurking. The 6th pervades every studio, every news room, every classroom, every church and temple, every living room, everywhere and anywhere in Dar al-Harb.

    *** 4:168 ***

    Jodie Foster showed so much courage when she played the flight attendant on a flight hijacked by terrorists.

    True, they were JudeoChristian terrorists angry about some non-specific issue, but she got her obligatory “how we deal with terrorism” movie on her filmography.

  24. says

    I didn’t say that Communism and Atheism were the same thing. I said that the Soviet Union and the People’s Republic of China are the two biggest examples of a society specifically based on the rejection of traditional religion; they replaced religion with a worldview that puts its ultimate faith in man, logic and science. I don’t see how that can be factually disputed. I do understand that if you believe Atheism is true, it’s rather disturbing to realize that you can’t come up with an example in the entire history of man of an admirable civilization based on that outlook, and all you’re left with is to look for blame and excuses for that reality. And really, look at Europe today, that has pretty much abandoned Christianity. All those simple minded, superstitious Christians, who in the past would have been intolerant of Islam—are pretty much nowhere to be found. Instead, a secularist society that has dismissed religion as unimportant has welcomed millions of Muslims with open arms.

  25. says

    BTP, due to the bullying of god-botherers it’s early days for truly secular society. No problem, though, we’ll do a far better job than theists have for the past 30,000 years.

    Oh, and don’t worry about the mess you left, we’ll clean that up too.

  26. says

    Thanks Wellington—that summarizes my belief as well.

    I will in the future refrain from attacks on Atheism on this forum. While I don’t believe Atheism is a proscription for a healthy society, the vast majority of Atheists I know are good people who cherish civil liberties—people who I am happy to ally with in our common struggle. (And since I know it’s a tough crowd on this forum, let me be clear—I am prepared to live together with Atheists in complete legal equality on a permanent basis :-) )

  27. says

    Well, at least Roland Emmerich spoke honestly.

    “I wanted to do that, I have to admit,” Emmerich told scifiwire.com. “But my co-writer Harald [Kloser] said I will not have a fatwa on my head because of a movie. And he was right.

    “We have to all, in the western world, think about this. You can actually let Christian symbols fall apart, but if you would do this with [an] Arab symbol, you would have … a fatwa, and that sounds a little bit like what the state of this world is.

    “So it’s just something which I kind of didn’t [think] was [an] important element, anyway, in the film, so I kind of left it out.”

    I’m glad to see that people at the top of the film industry, writers and directors of mainstream productions, know and understand the risk of dealing with Islamic subjects. This shows that they must talk among themselves. Someone out there is doing some thinking on the real dangers posed by filming a five-second slow motion shot of the Dark Stone in a negative light. Even if the Kaaba on film were just a cardboard box, painted black. Well, that’s something. He realizes that merely filming a Styrofoam cube crumbling on a sound stage could be something deserving of assassination — very telling indeed.

    For this very reason, understanding the danger, that is, artists in all disciplines should be dealing with all manner of Islamic taboo. What is art to post-modern sensibilities, if not the taboo-breaking tool? What belief system could be more virulent and toxic to artistic expression in general?

    The non-Islamic world needs to find the stones to deal with “The Stone” — artists, thinkers and creative people have a special duty. After all, they will be the first among those eliminated or forced underground in a regime of enforced sharia law.

    While I appreciate Roland Emmerich’s candor, it disappoints me. What subject matter could be more important at this juncture in history? Emmerich’s decision was a calculated one, based on relative risk and a scene’s relative importance to the project as a whole, but the crucial thing in his excuse is that HE KNOWS he took the safe and easy way out. I hope his realization weighs on his artistic conscience like a stone. If it does for him, it will for others as well. Someday those images will be expressed and not a moment too soon, by my calendar.

  28. says

    “Almost certainly, someone out there in fanaticworld would get bent out of shape over this depiction. I can’t personally think of any hadith or ayat that would support such fervor but really these guys don’t need any justification. ”

    Oh, you are such a card. Have we not seen Moslems throughout the world going feral over alleged Koran desecrations and Danish cartoons of Mohammed? Even the OIC got into the act on the latter.

    Also, why would Christians envy a psychotic’s psychosis? What other rodents do you make tea with? Have you looked into shrews?

  29. says

    The made up religion of islam must protect everything about itself, even in a make believe story- sure sign of a cult.

    By the way I am tired of calling islam a religion- it is a cult.

    Blow up the real kaaba and the world is left with one less idol of a fake religion. Would islam impolode on itself? I think so.

    Blow up a real statue of Jesus, a piece of art is lost. We are sad but know that the Kingdom of the One True GOD rmains forever.

  30. says

    When a Christian drawing/ethching/statue thing is destroyed a thing is gone but never forgotten, however, when an Aramaic Cult thing is gone the mass of Cultists weep and fall apart because they know they are going to perish. Just like a book is a book. The Bible was written by men who were there, the Kuran is written by men who think they remember what other men said to someone else and that is why it will ultimately fall into very dark place where other waste material goes

  31. says

    .

    Interesting that a guy like Theo van Gogh had that artistic relevance gene handed down to him and he paid for it with his life.

    He also worked on other iconoclastic projects not dealing with pigslam.

    Emmerich has and will always remain an entertainment director. Nothign wrong with that. He knows what he is but he also seems to know what islam is.

    His relative candor regarding this topic is better than what we get from people like Sean “Bush is a war criminal” Penn and Grossie “Terrorists have children too” McDonald and all the rest of them.

    So let’s cut Emmerich some slack here folks!

    Those who wanted to kill Emmerich should think of all those who’d be deserving of that fate before this particular director before they speak.

    Keep things in perspective.

    I do hope that others will at least be as honest with themselves as Emmerich was with his interviewer when they make “artistic decisions” as pertains to islamic topics.

    .

  32. says

    Ah GerbilTea, it’s been too long. I have missed your intelligent discourse.

    “Support for Muslims who seek genuine reform or at least acceptance that Muslims can be civil and law abiding citizens in the West is realistic.”

    Why limit this to the West? Is it because the East is a lost cause?

    “Admit it, in some ways you envy our resolute stand against blasphemy.”

    Nope. Envy? Maybe sadness or whatever the word may be to express disappointment at those creating offense at the expense of my beliefs. But I’ll be more than happy to tell Andres Serrano that he’s wrong. I’m even happier that he’s still alive.

    “You are taking a reasonable approach to the matter instead of the hypocrisy that is Jews and Christians taking offense at the teachings found in Islam without looking to their beliefs for that which is vile.”

    Actually we have looked into our past and apologised for our bad behaviour (Reconciliation Walk, Catholic apologies). That is not to say there isn’t more we could do. Despite this, our “vile beliefs” do not influence our present. We don’t carry swords around (Matthew 10.34).

    The best I hear from Islam runs along the lines of “These people do not represent mainstream Islam… There is no justification in Islam for this… However it’s not surprising that this has happened because of [Israel, Iraq, Salman Rushdie]… And we’re worried about reprisals. And we want justice. And we’re not going to help the authorities. And we’re not going to do anything to address this issue.”

  33. says

    Well, two things.Material world and spiritiual world.In the end all the battle leads there,like Baudelaire said.Dont be so sure that destroying a religious image has no consequences at all.Ask the taliban, they went for the Budddhas and had to go hiding.Cause and effect is the law in the material world.In the spiritual realm, the Cause is also free to choose a particualr effect.So, if i was this film director i would rather not go for another religious statue.God’s thin banana skin, you know.

    And as for questionning everything.sorry but communism and socialism dont match with a heart that believes.Thats a big mistake and you gotta be blind to hystory to think otherwise.In socialism man is born good, but it is society that spoils him, so we must change society with laws and revolutions.For a christian, man is born damaged, so we must heal and be repair ourselves as an individual- every hair is numbered.Two opposite approaches.We dont need all those laws that you like to make, you know, walk here not there, dont smoke, pay more taxes etc etc the only law we need is that of love.

    You say you want a revolution? yeah, well,we all want to change the world.But if you go carrying pictures of chairman Mao, you know brother you can count me out.

  34. says

    Gerbiltea, admit it, what you really would like to ask us but don’t dare, lest it will reveal too much of your mohammedan warped psyche is:

    “Admit it, don’t you envy us the divinely granted freedom and following it fun of beating the crap out of your wives? Or a thrill of participating in the stoning of an adulteres”?
    Or watching public beheading, or limb amputation?

  35. says

    If you dislike this sort of cowardice, you should never pay a cent to see this film, nor do anything that will help anyone to profit off this film.

    If only some decent filmmaker would get together with Robert Spencer and make a film of the life of Muhammad…

  36. says

    “You’re powerless to do anything about it.”

    The “power” to act fanatically is always within the grasp of everyone, religious or not. The decision to do so or not is another thing….and THAT’S what separates the mature from the immature.

    But really, if anyone appears powerless in all this, it’s Allah himself. He who supposedly has the power to drown armies in seas (sura 28), defeat infidels with bird-dropped rocks (sura 105), and rain brimstone on the ungodly (sura 15) curiously does nothing of the sort to those blaspheme him today. Instead, it’s left to his dunya-dwelling followers to defend his holiness by behaving fanatically….and becoming worldwide objects of ridicule and disgust in the process. If that’s “power”, you can have it….it’s nothing envied by anyone I know.

  37. says

    The news coverage wouldn’t be of the double standard but of “those violent Christians”.
    It’s time for anyone who is truly bothered to put his money where his mouth is – and avoid Hollywood movies.

  38. says

    Plotino : There is only One behind you and He has a name and a number.

    Oh, I think he was the chap with the beard and white robes I passed at the midway point of the last 5K I ran.

  39. says

    “On what scientific evidence do you base your ‘Day of Judgment’ prediction? Please don’t say ‘the quran”, it’s merely a very poor work of fiction. Cite something factual.”

    Hmm? There are a couple of tantalizing possibilities for the end of the earth. The most definite and obvious is the expansion of the sun to such a degree that it one day envelopes the whole of the planet. This won’t be happening any time in the near future, but it definitely points to an apocalypse for the earth sometime in the distant future.

    As for a Day of Judgment in which all men will be called forth to answer for their actions? That’s purely something to be found in the Qur’an and Bible. We certainly were not the first to pen an idea of apocalypse and we won’t be the last. If you take it to be superstition I accept your argument as being valid. You’re not being a hypocrite by taking that stand.

    “I can’t speak for the christians here but as an Atheist I can tell you I have more respect for a religion that accepts criticism, humor and continues on than one that throws a tantrum at the slightest provocation.”

    Quite right and I commend you for arguing against belief as an atheist. You are taking a reasonable approach to the matter instead of the hypocrisy that is Jews and Christians taking offense at the teachings found in Islam without looking to their beliefs for that which is vile. There’s a real problem with Islam today and with our ability to accept criticism. It’s not unique to us but in the modern world we are among the few who are willing to kill for it. Does this mean that in other times in the past or future the other Abrahamic faiths have not/will not be willing to do the same?

    It would be naive of you to think so. As an atheist I am sure you can appreciate the reality that all Abrahamic religion is inherently intolerant by nature. Just because it (Christianity) had the good fortune of being the religion of the West does not mean it was never in opposition to modernization.

  40. says

    Islam is not an Abrahamic religion.

    There are two (2) Abrahamic religions – Judaism and Christianity.

    There was no Islam until the early 7th century AD, about 620, when Delusional Psychopath Warlord Mohamet lied about “visions” in a cave.

    Islam has nothing whatsoever to do with Abraham. Islam is 2 millenia separate and apart from Abraham and from all Biblical figures in Judaism. Islam is 700 years separate and apart from all Biblical figures in Christianity.

    LOL – Can’t stand alone, Islam! That’s because you’re all made up, courtesy fiction-writer psycho Warlord Mo.

    allah is a moon god! allah is a moon god! allah is a moon god! DOESN’T EXIST!

  41. says

    Good fortune for being the religion of the West at its zenith. Christianity certainly did adapt, albeit slowly, with the significant upheavals seen in the West over the past 400 or so years. My question is this, is it impossible for Islam to experience some of these same changes? There are certainly some difficult hurdles to face in doing so but I don’t think it is impossible and it is almost certainly the only realistic outcome.

    So many people on this site seem to believe it feasible to ban Islam, ban the Qur’an, deport all the Muslims etc. These methods are unrealistic and contrary to the values found in the West. Support for Muslims who seek genuine reform or at least acceptance that Muslims can be civil and law abiding citizens in the West is realistic.

    And anyway, you’re speaking with a man who keeps a fist length beard, keeps his head covered with a taqiyya (no, it doesn’t merely mean deception), keeps halal and gets down on his hands and knees five times a day. From what I can see, our exchange has been civil and I haven’t called for a collection of your head. You’ve insulted my beliefs a few times here, but I can take that. It’s not as if you’re harming God with your comments.

  42. says

    Interesting take darcy. So Islam can not be an Abrahamic religion because you claim that pagan influences have actually created it.

    Fair enough, let’s apply your logic to Christianity. With its incarnate deity (a favorite of pagan pantheons, see the Hellenic pantheon for more details!), baptism (Mithraic cult says what???), transubstantiation (sympathetic magic), trinity (this isn’t polytheism?) and idolatry it’s starting to look a lot less like Judaism and a lot more like, well, paganism.

    If you want to say that Judaism is the sole Abrahamic belief, fine. I can almost accept that argument even though I feel it is misguided. But to include Christianity, with all of its completely pagan beliefs in that same analysis and then claim that Islam is some kind of fabrication is just absurd.

  43. says

    “And as for the Islamic civilization, well, the fact that millions of Muslims are doing everything they can to get out and go live in the Christian West should tell you everything you need to know.”

    Exactly.

    Just like Gerbil Tea, who avoids my simple question: Why don’t you live in an Islamic country???

  44. says

    Boston Tea Party : Well, I guess those fantasies are a lot more comforting than the historical reality—-namely that the results of a modern, atheistic society can be seen most fully in the history of the Soviet Union and the People’s Republic of China.

    So you’re saying that Communism is Atheism? Odd statement.

    It is possible to hold communist or socialist economic views while being a theist and it isn’t at all uncommon to be an atheist while staunchly defending capitalism

    Atheism and Communism are not the same thing.

    Don’t include me with moslems, they are superstitious, like you, BTP. I am not.

  45. says

    Fine post, BTP. I am one agnostic who has developed a great respect for Christianity (Judaism too). While I don’t believe in its theological contentions, Christianity placed a tremendous importance upon the worth and dignity of the individual, thus, in part, allowing for the rebirth of democracy in the Western world. Without a decided emphasis on the individual, democracy is problematical, if not impossible. The Judeo-Christian ethic provided such an emphasis. Christianity has also given the world an extraordinary artistic and intellectual heritage, which folks who make a religion out of not having one always seem to miss.

    Islam, by contrast, was a borrower at best. As Bertrand Russell noted in his very fine History of Western Philosophy, the Muslim world never produced a first-class thinker like Thomas Aquinas. The best they could do were fairly good commentators like Avicenna and Averroes. And once the clerics in the Islamic world really got control from about 1200 A.D. onwards, everything pretty much started to dry up except for some reasonably fine art work here and there.

    Islam is a prescription for the closing of the mind; Christianity is not, irrespective of any theological truth involved. Western Civilization is great to a very large extent because of Christianity. Islamic Civilization (actually the term “civilization” sticks in my throat where Islam is concerned) is second-rate precisely because of Islam itself. And respecting the character of the founders of Christianity and Islam, only a fool would think that Mohammed was superior in character to Jesus, again irrespective of theological certitudes.

  46. says

    GT,

    I find your perspective to be a refreshing improvement over that of most Muslim posters here. I don’t agree with your beliefs, but I’m encouraged by your apparent willingness to consider a reformation of the Islamic faith. IMO, you are entitled to believe in and practise whatever religion you choose, just as I am entitled to do the same. However, neither of us has the right to infringe upon the other by doing so. No one has the right to attempt to force their belief system upon another human being. I think Muslims believe that God gave everyone a free will, to either choose Him or not. (There is no compulsion in religion.) If all Muslims would simply adhere to that principle, and everyone else also adhere to that principle, an enormous amount of strife and worse would be eliminated from our world. The faith in your heart is between you and Allah. The faith in my heart is between me and God. I’m a Christian in my heart, but I’m not interested in organized religion or man made doctrines. I do believe the Bible is truth. According to the Bible, God gave every person “a measure of faith”. It doesn’t say God gave every person a measure of religion. I see religion as being divisive, while heartfelt faith can be unifying. I believe an honest definition of religion is: “Religion is man’s idea of God’s expectations.”
    Personally, I care that you believe in Islam, because I believe you’re following the path to destruction. However, on a societal level, your beliefs are none of my business, unless you try to force them upon me. For example, I will not be forced to listen to the Muslim call to prayer 5 times a day. If you want to hear it, listen to it in your own home. But, don’t expect me to listen to it with you. By the same token, I like to hear church bells on Sunday mornings. I imagine you’d rather not. Therefore, I need to listen to them within my own home. Actually, that’s not a good comparison, because the Muslim call to prayer is chants and actual words (I think), while church bells are simply bells (musical notes). If a church broadcasts the words of a hymn, that would be a better comparison. So, you don’t get to hear the call to prayer broadcast over loudspeakers, and I don’t get to hear the church bells. It’s a compromise neither of us like, but have to tolerate to live together in peace. Muslims that refuse to agree to that compromise are the ones who need to relocate to an Islamic country to live a happy life. That’s just a small example, but I’m sure you get my point.
    I am surprised that you don’t “get” the concept of the Trinity. There is only one God. A simple analogy: H2O is water. Water can be in the form of liquid, solid (ice), or vapor (steam). But, it’s still the same entity – H2O, and only H2O.

  47. says

    “Fair enough, let’s apply your logic to Christianity. With its incarnate deity (a favorite of pagan pantheons, see the Hellenic pantheon for more details!), baptism (Mithraic cult says what???), transubstantiation (sympathetic magic), trinity (this isn’t polytheism?) and idolatry it’s starting to look a lot less like Judaism and a lot more like, well, paganism.”

    Rather than confirming ad nauseum that your baseless, uneducated, and ill-informed soundbite-statements are merely the latest in a long line of examples displaying Ismael pissing directly into the wind…

    …why not back up your assertions with facts?

    The inspired writers of Scripture sure have us fooled if you are correct, after all. Who knew that a handful of ignorant fisherman, tax collectors, devout Jews, and various uneducated “unsavories” had it in them to conspire across the years to pen such awe-inspiring stuff all of their own accord?

    Your assumptions, be they Koranic-fed or otherwise, regarding sympathetic magic, polytheism, idolatry, baptism, and the Incarnation are pedestrian semantics at their finest, and pure unlearned drivel at their worst.

    So, go for it. Pick one.

    Best not to come to battle with your sling empty when a tank is bearing down upon you, after all. :)

  48. says

    .

    Lothar Emmerich could have really made a statement by having the Buddhists statues destroyed in afghanistan, thus re-vitalizing the topic and garnering more buzz about his movie, because the MSM might ignore this, but the internet would surely be all abuzz if he had that in his film!

    .

  49. says

    Well thanks wyldeirishman! Same to you! How are things in Eire?

    You are right about the Rodent’s comments being composed of “soundbites.”

    It reminds me of Leftist Muslim Apologists who think they’ve won the discussion with “Oh yeah? What about the Crusades?”

    I hate that so much! They know nothing about the Crusades – all they know is the word, the soundbite.

    How about that the Crusades saved Europe from Islamization back in the day – can you be a tad grateful for that?

    And prior, Charles Martel (“Le Marteau”) rescued the world from Islam in 732 AD. How ’bout being a tad grateful for that, too? The ignorance is so appalling.

    Thanks again wyldeirishman – you’re awesome!

  50. says

    Actually…I live in Oregon (talk about the kingdom of the Left!); think of me as made in America, with Irish parts…but, like Stephen says, “it’s MY island!” ๐Ÿ˜€

    History has never been a strong suit of those who would undermine the liberty of their people in order to control them, then or now. The fact that Martel’s statue at Tours was pulled down at the behest of Muslim activists is only one of a myriad of examples that bears this truth out.

    Meanwhile, I’ll wait patiently for a reply (or a non-reply) concerning any of the aforementioned theological topics, all the while munching on a hot, delicious pulled pork sandwich, reading Paul’s epistle to the Roman church, and knocking down a couple pints of Guinness to boot.

    Ah, infidelity! :)

  51. says

    Ah, infidelity! :)

    Ain’t it fun?! Muslims have no idea what they’re missing as they spend their temporal lives submitting to allah’s capricious whimsys. The most egregious sin I can imagine is to waste the precious gift of life.

  52. says

    “I am surprised that you don’t “get” the concept of the Trinity. There is only one God. A simple analogy: H2O is water. Water can be in the form of liquid, solid (ice), or vapor (steam). But, it’s still the same entity – H2O, and only H2O.” — OMGWhatNow in reply to GerbilTea.

    This is the best explanation of the concept of the Christian Trinity I’ve ever read. Thanks! (I assume it’s a well known analogy in some segment of the population, but it’s the first time I’ve heard it.) But I wonder if the excessively literal Muslim mind, with “Allahu Akbar” always blaring in his mind and blocking out anything so subtle yet obvious as this, will be able to grasp it? If they missed this, then it’s likely they are not hearing, or perhaps are even aware of, Elijah’s “still, small voice” (1 Kings 19:12), either. Pity.